First!

Second! It seems with this title that we will now see that Betty is no longer a girl and Don/Dick will have to reconcile the adult that he has become.

Don't you think that's a little too obvious?

No I don't think so. The gypsy and the hobo were obvious but there were also other meanings other than halloween costumes. i expect this episode wont be different. the episode will be about being a grownup in the real world

Oooh, number 5. Cool...

Looking forward to Sunday. I'm wondering if Don isn't still putting on an act for Betty. He didn't tell her the real reason his identity was switched, and he seems to be acting a little too much like a poor pathetic wretch. But maybe he's savvy enough to know this is how to earn her sympathy.

And she does have as much invested as he does in preserving the facade of his identity (and their marriage).

Oooh, number 5. Cool...

Looking forward to Sunday. I'm wondering if Don isn't still putting on an act for Betty. He didn't tell her the real reason his identity was switched, and he seems to be acting a little too much like a poor pathetic wretch. But maybe he's savvy enough to know this is how to earn her sympathy.

And she does have as much invested as he does in preserving the facade of his identity (and their marriage).

Sorry for the double posting. God, this site is slow!

By sab4ever on October 30, 2009 6:07 PM

Don't you think that's a little too obvious?
*****************************************************************

Sorry, it was infantile. I was caught off guard that I could be writing in the #2 position, and just thought I'd write SOMETHING.

I have more profound comments somewhere in other threads. Really.

The original title of this episode was "The Greatest Generation". I wonder why they changed it. They have changed the titles of at least three of the episodes. I really do wonder why they change the titles. The original title of Episode 13 was "The Silo", now it is "Close the Door and Sit Down" or something like that. There was another title change a couple of weeks ago. I can't remember now what it was.

Pinkpen here, first post of this season I think? Season 3 just has me completely lost for words! I just don't know what's going to happen next? I do believe I am enjoying this season much more than the others, it's very hard to perdict. Each week is more and more shocking. I do wonder how Sterling Cooper & Co. will handle being sold to the highest bidder? Joan's gone, Sal get's his motor running, hit on & gone, Pete chokes out on smoke, Peggy getting harsh treatment from Don, Roger being faithful, Betty getting her groove on, Don is out of control and coming clean! Price & wife going back to London, WOW! A Hot Time In The City. A big shot out to Z, SCfan, Dry, Drink & Smoke, 60's Chick, and the rest of you Maddicts. Thank Goodness, AMC has a Comment Policy.

hi maddicts - can't wait until sunday! just a few thoughts about the sale of SC

first - with sal and joanie both gone from SC, and don signing a contract with a false identity, it does seem like MW has given himself some room for don to break away and start a new agency with some old pals! however, an entire career has been built around the mystique of don drapper, will it be possible for dick emerge as head of an ad agency? hmmmm ... at least one huge hurtle has been crossed, betty knows the truth!

second - why would they bring duck back in the middle of season three for just two episodes unless he were to play an integral role in the new sale of SC ? is this too obvious? i know MW always finds a way to amaze us ...

I'm sitting in the pumpkin patch waiting for...Mad Men!

We can't say Betty knows the truth. Don was not totally truthful about the Dick W thing. "There was a mix up" He just told her enough to "change the conversation" ---- and, he never told her about that big buyout bonus. All she knows about is the money in the drawer.

Will she continue to dig? Or will she just accept his story the way she accepted the first story -- him being so secretive about his background before? Will he play the "it's too painful to talk about" card"?

Hi Deep Dish!

I agree. Betty also does not know about ALL of Don's affairs...

That's true 60's. Now that I think about it, did she ever really make the effort to find out anything about him? Going through the closet doesn't count. That night she was just looking for the proof to throw in his face. But she did know. And, she stopped at the locked drawer. If she really wanted to know, she would have taken an ax to that drawer.

Does anybody else think that William said "Trudy made lunch" (and not Judy)? I could swear he did. I had ran it past a few non viewers (with no prompting) and they said the same thing.

deep dish and 60's child - by 'truth' i mean he is really dick, the bonus money has no real impact on betty anyway, she knows he own the house in cali, she must assume he has money she has not been made aware of. besides, she seems to spend what she wants, when she wants to - don has complained her spending but never said no! furthermore, i don't think betty needs every detail of his affairs explained to her for her to see the big picture - MW has counted on many of us to underestimate betty, she's a smart woman who she has finished her journey into adulthood as the title of this episode implies!

hey j9mac, that's something for sure. And! Duck is sober again, isn't he? The drinking was his downfall, but if he's on the wagon again as it appears, and he's with a new company, maybe he will get back in the game. Will he try to use unsuspecting and gullible Peggy for his mole - to get insider info? Peggy may be smart and intuitive in advertising, but not so much socially. I think she could be played - big time - by a guy like Duck

Well, I hope Betty finally gets an air conditioner!

please disregard the Trudy/Judy thing. Upon further review (on a better TV) it is indeed Judy.

The "Grown Ups" are the only ones allowed to watch television coverage of the assassination? Don and Betty didn't think it appropriate for the their kids to ask questions about the election -- "That's for grown ups"

@Racy: The play "Oliver" is currently being performed at the Walnut Street Theatre in Philly. I know how much you loved it.

"Does anybody else think that William said "Trudy made lunch" (and not Judy)? I could swear he did. I"

I thought the same thing too! in fact I even thought wow I guess it was a popular name and more than one person would have had it but I thought she had been named something else before

deep dish - i hope betts gets that air conditioner too ;-)

@Deep Dish: LOL, I know exactly what you are saying re: Trudy/Judy. I also thought that William said Trudy, and did not think anything it. I didn't realize his wife's name was Judy.

The audio (and the video as well) is very poor on my TV. I watch each episode three times, and still frequently miss or mishear things.

Deep Dish @ 6:39._ That's good. If the speculation turns out to be true and this is the day after JFK's assasination at the wedding then "The Grown Ups" are all going to be in a state of shock...maybe wishing they weren't grownups and didn't have to deal with the reality.
The look on Betty's face sitting at that table...I'm thinking she's thinking "Why am I here? Why are we celebrating? I don't feel safe anymore. JFK has been shot.What will happen next?"

Does anyone think that Betty may want a divorce after all?
Do you think she may use his secret to get money and custody? Esp if she finds out about Suzanne.

Whew! Thanks. Maybe he mumbles and said Chudy.

And I'm hoping DonDesq (our local legal counsel) can ring in here: Questions still abound about the legal status of Don and the identity thing. Can he start life anew as Dick Whitman? Are he and Betty really married? Are his children illegitimate (I dislike that term, but hey, it was the sixties)? Might he be prosecuted? Sorry if you already answered, but if you did I missed it. Enquiring minds need to know. DDesq, please put this all to rest.

The jury is still out if that was Carlton at the door on Halloween. If that is indeed Carlton, then Carlton knows something (God knows how much!) about Don's identity or the teacher (I still think she got to him first).

So many questions unanswered.

I think it was Carlton at the door, but I can't see how he would have any knowledge of Don's true identity. I think the question about "and who are you supposed to be" was just irony.

I have absolutely no legal knowledge, but I have always believed that your legal identity is your legal name and any legal documents that are in that name. Dick Whitman assumed the identity of Don Draper. Don Draper was legally married, and in order to marry another woman, he had to divorce the woman to whom he was already married. Don Draper then legally married Betty. Children born to that marriage are indeed legitimate. Dick Whitman is legally dead and buried. Don cannot now start a life as Dick Whitman. Don could be prosecuted for switching the dog tags, and deserting the army. Other than that, I don't see that any other crimes were committed by Dick. However, keep in mind that his story is that there was a mix up, and he went along with it. He suffered a concussion. Who's to say that he didn't really believe that he was Don?

Identity theft today is a whole lot different, and involves using another living person's identity for monetary gain.

In the Philly news today, there is a case where a homeless man was killed by the cops because he came after them with a box cutter. His identity said he was a certain name. But when the police went to that name's father, they discovered that the "name" was still alive. Now they have to figure out who the one killed is.

This marriage is not valid; she could just take the kids and go.

It will be interesting to see how this scenario pans out. Will probably be the cliffhanger for the season finale.

Looks like Sal is history; Dr. Rapist has been written out of the script and probably Joan has been, too. (And if Betty was smart, she’d have taken a wad of that money for herself. You never know)

MadMenSuze: Could you please explain why you think that the marriage between Betty and Don is not valid? And if the marriage is not valid, what would be the consequences?

I think this is definately the JFK episode. That's probably what Betty was refering to in the sneak peak (or what Don and the kids were watching in the clip).

That was Carlton at the door, but I think his "what are you supposed to be"" comment was to suggest that he had any inside knowledge. It was referring to Don and Betty's sham of a marriage.

I wish Betty would divorce Don (who is a complete tool), but based on what the lawyer told her, she won't take that route till she gets proof of infidelity.

PanAm: identity fraud was just as common 50 years ago as today and was a lot easier to do. Banks did not ask for identification or SS#. When you opened an account it was your signature that mattered and of course people at the bank knew you on sight.Banks didn't report interest to the IRS back then.
The money that Betty found in the drawer is just Don's spending money for bills etc. Remember when she said he doesn't understand money?Don is like a yokel who doesn't trust banks and buries it in a tin out in the garden.Betty also meant that he doesn't understand the real value of money or that money should be earning money for you in interest, dividends etc
He could be prosecuted for the identity switch but he really was in hospital so can always claim he lost his memory and later when he recovered it was afraid to come forward.
He is legally married to Betty regardless of what name he used and in fact his name is Don Draper(though not the other REAL Draper) because that is the name he is known to everyone by.And incidently, simply saying "I do" and signing the book does not mean you are married until the marriage is consumated(you have sex) and until you do the marriage may be annulled by either party. Marriage was a contract whereby a man owned his children (but not his wife) and in return he had the duty to care for them etc Marriage today is not a valid contract since the man is getting no consideration and the female can violate the contract over any trivial thing and still take his children and force him to pay support.And personally I think there should be no such thing as a no fault divorce.What's the point of a contract if one party is permitted to breach it without proof that the other party violated the terms?

j9mac
I agree that Betty is smart, but I think she may very well be half out the door...

She is a great card player, and can strategize.

If/when she finds out about Suzanne- I think she will blackmail him for his assets, to punish him, and to live in financial security.

Will an independently wealthy Betty be finally happy not wondering where Don is sleeping everynight?

Will an independent and wealthy Betty attract Don-Dick? Will he ever openly pine for her love?

Lots of interesting posts about the legal thing here and on other threads. DDesq -- please ring in. (We ignore any BS from that name @ 10:00 - nobody reads that crap from trolls. That's why we have a scroll down button. And everybody uses it)

Anya, Re: the Don/Dick identity switch, I really do not think that we have any disagreement, we just perhaps expressed our thoughts a little differently.

As far as the marriage contract: marriage is a legal contract and often also includes religious vows. The marriage contract and the religious vows were much more likely to be adhered to in the 50's and early 60's. A contract should not be as easily voided as the marriage contract is today.

I believe that the creators of Mad Men are attempting to show that our society has changed radically from the society of the 50's and early 60's. It has indeed changed radically. However, I believe that the creators of the show believe that all changes were good. I do not agree with this. A positive change would have been to give women the choice of a career with the same pay as a man, or motherhood supported by a husband. Instead, most women now have no choice...if they want to be mothers, they must also work outside the home and have strangers bring up their children.

There have been positive changes since the early 60's but overall our society has declined, as shown by divorce rates, out of wedlock births, etc. Children are growing up without dicipline or moral values, which will only bring about further decline of our society.

Once again, I do believe that all people, no matter what sex, race or religion should be treated equally. I am not disputing that. I just believe that motherhood is an important job, and necessary for the future of future generations.

To get back on topic, Betty is unhappy being a housewife/mother. In Season 1, she went back to work modeling, but then realized (or at least thought) that she became a bad mother and wife as a result. See Season 1, Episode 9. Joan married a man who was inconsiderate and disrespectful of her feelings. Both Betty and Joan had been erroneously taught that marrying a good provider is a woman's goal in life. These women should have had the choice to be a career woman instead of a housewife/mother. Women who want to be housewives and mothers should also have that choice.

PanAm, I must disagree when you say about Betty:

"In Season 1, she went back to work modeling, but then realized (or at least thought) that she became a bad mother and wife as a result."

Betty was fired (the job was a ploy to woo Don) and she bawled when let go and the dream burst. She made up that whole 'I'm a mom first' 'Isn't this homemade dinner great' just to save face. But Don knew the truth and let her lie and save face. She was devistated -- all of a sudden she had felt young and beautiful and vital again. Pop!!

Then she let the pigeons have it.

wow - great comment about don's legal issues -

panam53 -I definitely think it was Carlton at the door - i guess if carlton had been involved with MF there is a chance he could know about don's affair (at the eclipse he mentioned he has seen her running in the mornings and we know that he was involved with another woman from season 2) however, i think the question 'who are you supposed to be' is meant to be ironic, not just because don is always pulled between two identities but because Carlton also is not satisfied with his life in the suburbs. perhaps don dislikes carlton so much because he sees himself - a liar and a cheater.

sab4ever- about the title 'the grownups' interesting point about the children not being allowed to watch TV. I also think that episode 11 was an emotional journey for many characters (don, betty, roger, joan, dr creepy) with each of them reaching maturity by episode's end. dr creepy stops sulking and finds a way to stay a surgeon, joan swallows her pride and calls roger for a job, roger turns down puppy chow's sexual advances and treats joanie with respect (yay), and of course don and betty both confronting the past.

from the still of this week's episode i imagined that don and betty are about to learn SC is back up for sale and maybe which firms are the most interested. when pryce was taking to PPL on the tele it was hinted that a firm has already showed interest!

Parents didn't go around with their kids during Halloween in those days. Don's suggestions all involved someone staying home with the baby. Betty's decision to all go together strikes me as a tremendous show of solidarity. I've realized my Dad (now dec.) was 2 years older than Don and was in NY, when I was 7 (1963). I almost expect him to walk on the set. Personally I think for a lot of us, we want to go back to where our parents got off track and we want to see them get it right this time. We want to rewrite their past and thereby rewrite our own. Betty finding the box was the best thing that ever happened to Don. I don't think there is any chance Don is a spook either. Don didn't tell the WHOLE truth with how the identity mistake was made in Korea, but that's deep. No one will EVER hear that portion. He can't go that deep, he's got to call it a mistake that he went along with.

I think money means a lot less to Don than it does to Betty. Remember in Calif how he left the hotel that he and Pete were staying in and didn't bother to get his things? How when he went to see the Ex how he took a bus and had "his things" in a brown paper bag? Its the same with sex. He had a free ride (if you will) in Calif with the young hottie and her promise that he didn't even have to be exclusive. He walked away from it. For Don, its not about the sex.

Deep Dish - I think Betty realized in her shot at going back to modeling that she didn't have any genuine value as a model. That may not have been true, but I think it was the message she received, because in that case, they only cast her as a way to get to Don.

Could be. She knew her modeling days were over, but she played it like it was her choice to give it up. And Don let her pretend and was very tender when he told her he wished he had had a mother like her. Hmmmm Betts! And she let the conversation end - always about her. Or did she just give up asking Don about his own mother because he shut her out each time? Or was she just not that interested? So many unanswered questions!

But I still say Don is funny about money. In Califonia he didn't "leave" his things. The airline lost his luggage. Remember the fade out? His found luggage was delivered to his house.

Tired? Listless? Questioning Your Sanity? You May Have Trolls!

Have you had enough of all those websites that take you for granted? Sites that allow trolls to overrun the good, decent people who are trying to comment about one of their favorite subjects?

Then friends, the Sterling Cooper Yahoo Group might just be the website for you! No longer will you have to put up with trolls and baiters, and people who don’t know how to use the return key. At Sterling Cooper we are all about good old actual, well behaved discussion. And because we are moderated, offensive posts either don’t get through, or are deleted once they are detected, and the sender banned for life by their ISP address. We are also a smoke, carrot and pantyhose-free zone.

Just send (1) the name you used at the AMC site along with (2) your actual Internet Service Provider (ISP) address, where we will send you an email to confirm its existence. This email will be seen only by our five moderators (with a combined 49 days of experience) who will treat your information with the utmost privacy. We promise not to disclose any of your information to Clorox, BMW or Stolichnaya.

If you want to stay anonymous on the site, and who doesn't these days, you can set up a free email address at Yahoo. This will be the only address that can be seen online. The Yahoo address, however, cannot stand in for your ISP address when applying for membership.

Why waste your intelligent comments on a site filled with others who just want to argue? At Sterling Cooper we have no arguments because everyone is on their best behavior at all times. Or they get canned – pronto!

Sterling Cooper is the property Sane Posters Unlimited. Tax and title not included. Trolls will be deleted at the drop of Don Draper’s pants.

Sterling Cooper Yahoo Group: We’re moderated!
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/sterlingcooper/

Where is Moose and Flying Squirrel?

Blessings on thee, Polar Bear! First laugh of the day.

Hi Polar Bear!

I agree with Zerelda! I needed that laugh!

And, to answer your question...my guess is moose and squirrel are with Mr. Peabody and Sherman in the "way back machine".

Thank you to the moderator who is cleaning up the troll mess today. Too bad we had to leave you in droves before you did something. How about trying to ban the trolls by ISP address? If we can do it on our site, how come you can't, or refuse to do it on this site?

You missed one at 10 pm on Oct 31st. Maybe if you clear him off altogether he may get the idea that he isn't tolerated and finally go elsewhere.

We have had over 700 posts in the past week on our site. That's more than over here. We haven't had one troll message. And we haven't had any other type of annoying posts either. You know what I mean, dear readers. A moderated site means that no crap is tolerated. Like it should have been here. I still think it's a case of too little, too late.

AMC: We drank your milkshake!

Just out of curiosity, who are the moderators, NeverNotTasty?

@zerelda: me, NNT, Sugar Bear, Fan4mad and MamboDeb. If you come over, we'll make you one too.

Thank God there's a moderator on this weekend!

Why is everybody still trying to recruit for the Yahoo site if it is doing so well? I thought that everybody who wanted to leave, did. There were certainly enuf posts advertising it last week. Funny NNT bout Don's pants! But can we keep this main thread for MadMen episode chatter? It was great last week w/out all of the junk.

Because we'd like ALL of you there BoyToy, not just some of you. We're doing just fine, thank you, but want to include everyone.

It's perfectly apparent that AMC has decided to moderate today. However, it has also been apparent that moderation here is sporadic and incomplete. There are still several threads that are troll-begun and populated, and there are still many, many messages on threads that are nasty, mean or offensive - and they aren't touching those.

We're just trying to offer a friendly site, free of hassles.

NNT posted ONE ad, I answered Zerelda's (and now your) question. If no one had asked any questions, we wouldn't have "chattered" up this thread. Please excuse the intrusion.

@zerelda: I hope that's not an offer you can't refuse. (:) wink.
@BoyToy: good question.

@NNT: good ad copy. But I put my faith in all things AMC. Nothing's perfect, and you live through a lot of annoyances for a little pleasure...but they did bring us MM, so I'm loyal.

And best wishes to those who started another MM blogsite. It's all good.

@Take Five: One more thing:

We never said you had to pick one or the other. You can belong to both!!

BoyToy,stay here with me.

@Zabadu-of course it's apparent what AMC does, they are the moderators, sporadic or not. But some of us can live with it, some jump ship. The advertisements for that site should, and were, scattered all over already. U should post another thread to recruit, I'm sure you could grab a few more. Good bye & good luck! (my fave line from Rebecca!)

PS: I hope you stay Zerelda! I really enjoy your insightful comments. Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

@BoyToy: don't be thanking God that there is a moderator on duty today. Thank Zabadu who started our new site. Only by our leaving did AMC finally wake up and start showing a little respect to the posters here by removing offensive troll posts.

NNT-I can thank whomever I wish, and it's certainly not who you tell me to, nor would I ever participate in a fan-owned site. So are you coming back, or just advertising all over the main thread?

Somehow, I knew that people couldn't help being rude, even if given a polite explanation.

Whatever. Sorry you were disturbed by these posts, but not the dirty, troll or rude ones. Enjoy.

Brooks Brothers is offering "Mad Men Edition" suits-gray sharkskin, two-button jacket with narrow lapels, side vents. Cost-$998. Limited edition with only 250 available. I wonder how many they'll sell at that price.

People really are rude trying to boss people...I guess that's what other sites are for.

@BoyToy: You're funny, succinct and you don't take nothin' off nobody. 'Nuff said. Can't blame Avis for tyring to be Hertz. And maybe as NNT said, they're the reason it seems refreshingly sane around here (and it's been awhile since that was the case). I don't begrudge them at all (hey...ain't that what makes America great...competition)?

@Zabadu, thx for that...but unless there's a total abandon ship around here, I try to keep my on-line destinations down to a paltry hundred or so (life's so complicated!).

I merely remarked on the issue because I liked what zerelda said a few days back --but didn't comment then, so decided to weigh in today...in this "cocktail-limbo-hour" between dinner and MM 3.12. You all at Yahoo enjoy, though, and bring back here your best comments. :)

Now back to countdown, and S3.12 .

As Carol King sang: "...Anticipation..."

Hi all.. my question is- why does anyone characterize posting to the Yahoo site and the AMC site as an "either / or" proposition ?? It isn't. These sites are not mutually exclusive.

The only difference is that the Yahoo site is more closely monitored for inflammatory baiting behavior - which is certainly unpleasant and wasteful for everyone, excepting of course for the baiters and the combat junkies.

Boytoy...I didn't see anyone trying to "boss" anyone else here. Perhaps you are projecting...

I thought that was Carly Simon. Oh well, I'm still not sure if William said Trudy or Judy or if that was Carlton at the door.

I so think Carlton was with SF.

Just watched again and Suzanne said to Don that she knew for SURE she'd get over him. She's had experience - getting over the married man.

Hi Melba Toast. Right, not mutually exclusive, and maybe some of us will post in both places. (I am just lazy, and don't even do a thorough job of reading the posts here, as much as I would like to. That's why I have to limit myself, personally). Also, there is so much already-proven talent here that I'm not worried about a brain-drain. Maybe after things get solidly under control here, the defectors will come back. Who knows.

@Deep Dish: you're so right, it was Carly. (Right after I hit "submit," I knew I was wrong, but even then I couldn't think who). Thanks!

I heard "Judy," but then maybe I heard that because I instantly remembered "Judy" being the name of William's wife. The thing I thought about that line was that it was rather sad that Judy (who has always appeared truly nice) had gone to the trouble to fix lunch for them all, and probably she and William would be the only ones eating it. I feel for Judy.

Stef Jo is upset because while others may come and go between sites, her membership is rather doubtful.

@Monty as Anya: I drank your milkshake too...

buh,bye

Does anybody remember from season one exactly what Don burned in the garbage can after he got the hijacked shoebox back from Pete? I thought then it was photos but clearly now it wasn't. So what did he light on fire and put in the waste can?

Your (sic) welcome. Any day now, Fearless Leader will give the command to Comrade Anna to activate the Don Draper sleeper cell and watch all Hell brake loose (Grampa Gene warned us!).

I must admit, I do enjoy it when someone "gets" my references.

On a serious note, how 'bout that episode 12?

What does brake mean? Like brake on car? I don't understand this English.

what does brake mean? haha

I thought your English was as good as any American since you are lawyer in Russia and NY??

Two faces of being a grownup. One is the physical and the other is emotional. Don is hobbled at being comfortable in his own clothes, as his lifetime charade is known only by a couple people. Both Betty and Don are too paranoid to truly love each other. But at the same time, they can't be without each other for entirely different reasons. Kids can play adult, but that is a fantasy, but then again Don and Betty both live in their own fantasy worlds- both yearning to have that 'perfect' life. Sometimes for an adult its important to be a kid again, but we see with Don and Betty, they may never had had that happy childhood, so its impossible for them to put life in a kids perspective.

Don't feed the trolls.

Anya, Annushka, et al: Why is it that you say you are so smart and beautiful that you spend every day and night on the computer instead of having Monty take you out on the town? Or even spend time at home with you instead of you being on the computer all the time, especially on Saturday nights (date night)? Is he a cheapskate? You poor thing.

Hello fellow Maddicts!

The "Draper" marriage is valid, remember the divorce was final on Valentines Day, 1953...three months before Don and Betty married. But then, Dick wasn't married to the Anna (if I recall the name correctly). I think Betty may make a go of it because of the children. I think she's finally seeing how much different her life would be without the kids. I think Don will open up more and more to her...thus my prediction of Don spending more time at home. He broke it off with Miss Teacher.

Dr. Harris joining the Army was a surprise. Joan seems thrilled (recalling her efficiency when the guy got run over with the lawnmower). She knows that being the wife of an officer, she would be better off than...say, the wife of a private. Although I think her beloved Dr. Harris may not last long, possibly suffering a similar fate of the original Don Draper.

"The Grown-Ups" refer to that they may be physically and legally adults, they still get hurt and revert to childish ways in times of stress.

What's going to happen with the Kennedy Assassination...We've just passed Halloween, it should be happening soon since there are only two or three episodes left in the season.

AND there it is. I had a feeling in last week's preview that's what Don and the kids were watching.

So far, it's pretty realistic, in terms of people's reactions. Good for them, too, for using so much of the actual footage.

What the hell is Henry Francis doing at the wedding

Oh wow - we had a phone exactly like Joan's wall phone, except ours was yellow and my sister and I had stretched the cord waaay out taking the receiver around the corner for "private" conversations.

For saying he was not going to deal with the Kennedy Assasination, MW certainly spent a lot of time in 3.12 on the Kennedy Assasination.
Too bad there were some real mistakes in the way reaction was portrayed.

"End of the World" over the end credits - perfect selection.

WOW!

What is this with Bett's proposal OF MARRIAGE without any more than 2 kisses and yet all around them are people with no restraint?

Henry Francis was at Rogers wedding, where he and Betty met for the first time. Henry always appears when she least expects it. Life after Kennedy's assassination, forces people to reassess where they are in life, and what is really important. Meanwhile, Don's life is collasping around him, and his inner core is in tatters. He's no longer in control of work (contract), home (Betts), his past and his future.

Betty, noooooo!
My heart is in my throat for Don.
What was this "impressive candidate" he was to meet?
Trying to throw us off the scent?

Anyway, since we are denied a preview of the season finale,
have you seen the photo inside the new Entertainment Weekly for next week?
Roger and Don both in their overcoats standing in an interior of what LOOKS like Joan's apartment.
I say this because the walls are painted in a powder blue with a peek of the next room painted in that pink.
They both have a slight open mouthed expression on their faces. Mmmmhhmmm.

By the way, "Damn you HBO!" these commercial breaks are killing me! You didn't green light this program when you had the chance! You blew it! You blew it!
Ugh! Betty!
Yuck Peggy! At least you have an interesting "where were you" tale to tell the grandchildren. (Grandma! Gross!)

Old Soul: Their marriage is still considered fraud. He did not tell Betty he was priorly married, even if it was just a marriage "on paper only", being that he was supposed to be the real Don Draper.

She can have the marriage annulled on that basis -- I am still pretty certain grounds for annullment included fraud, back in 1963.

I haven't posted in three weeks and man is this place dead! Apparently most of you got sick of the issues with this site about the same time I did. That's a shame because I really enjoyed interacting with you folks. But it had to happen eventually. Unfortunately AMC has made sure this place is so frustrating it isn't worth the trouble anymore. It's poorly designed, difficult to navigate, and impossible to access or sign into. It's shocking that they have chosen not to deal with any of this stuff in the last three years. In my opinion comments and what people say are not the problem here. Functionality is. And that's all on AMC.

I'll ride out the last show here next week (assuming I can get in or get a comment to post), but I gotta find another Mad Men site to call home for season four. So help me out people -- where did everybody go? Where is the new hang?

I noticed an interesting factoid...when Betty and Henry meet, and he said he wanted to take her to her favorite movie--Betty says "Singing in the Rain".

That movie was scheduled to air on NBC-TV Monday, 11/25/63...but obviously was pre-empted.

Dear Lord,
Had no idea all this bickering was going on! Grow up people! No one has any manners anymore!
I'd rather talk about the episodes than read all this drivel! I feel like I stumbled onto a playground in George Orwell's 1984. Can we please keep it about the show?

I think I've been waiting for this episode since this show began. Seeing the assasination brought back every emotion I felt that day, I was Sally Draper's age (I believe 10 years old) that day - all the kids in the neighborhood were allowed to watch TV or listen to their TRANSISTOR RADIOS all day up and through the funeral, I don't mean to just reminisce but my life was not the same after that awful day. That day was also errily quiet --the nuns at my school sent us home early - the nuns were inconsolable! The only day that was worse was Sept 11. While watching JFK's funeral, I remember being frightened when I saw Jaqueline Kennedy's heavy black veil, but then I began to admire her for wearing it - it was the only bit of privacy she was to have during the funeral procession. My 10 year old heart broke that day.

I think I've been waiting for this episode since this show began. Seeing the assasination brought back every emotion I felt that day, I was Sally Draper's age (I believe 10 years old) that day - all the kids in the neighborhood were allowed to watch TV or listen to their TRANSISTOR RADIOS all day up and through the funeral, I don't mean to just reminisce but my life was not the same after that awful day. That day was also errily quiet --the nuns at my school sent us home early - the nuns were inconsolable! The only day that was worse was Sept 11. While watching JFK's funeral, I remember being frightened when I saw Jaqueline Kennedy's heavy black veil, but then I began to admire her for wearing it - it was the only bit of privacy she was to have during the funeral procession. My 10 year old heart broke that day.

Pamaddict, the cyber-terrorist's that are here have a international twist.The" other side" is where all your Mad Men aficionados are... They are well versed,intellectuals who have there own private "country club". They are always right about the show thats why there's no bickering.Everyone says yes to everyone about everything . It has that "Orwelesque" flavor. So talk about the show ,I'm listening.

I was 7 in '63. What struck me as larger (maybe as a function of age) was later...."68. King down. Bobby down. And the Tet offensive. Maybe we didn't live in the land of happily ever after - after all. JFK's demise seemed like a bizarre aberration at the time but maybe it was because I was so young.

As another season approaches its finale, the producers must tie up many threads introduced in previous episodes. Predictably, we'll learn the significance of those college clues, i.e., Betty went to all-girls Bryn Mawr; Suzanne graduated coed Bowdoin. And we'll discover why Betty lives in Ossining, while Suzanne lives above the coach house on Locust Road in Briarcliff.

Ossining, we know, is home to Sing Sing prison, a metaphor for Betty's sour, I'm-too-good-fot-this attitude. We know also that girls denied access to male services during those raging-hormone years find sapphic release with their own gender. Betty, we'll see, is all neurotic and mannish because Don can't deliver the pleasures she enjoyed so often with her roommate Dierdre.

Don, emasculated by Betty's suppressed butchness, finds himself lusting for genuine MEN'S women like Midge, Rachel and Suzanne -- women who spent their formative years attending to the needs of virile guys. Suzanne even occupies chauffeur's quarters -- SERVANT'S quarters -- where she demonstrates her female burthright freely and happily servicing Don.

It'll be next season before it's confirmed that Suzanne's pivotal heavy-breathing call to Don at home was not self-initiated. Betty had recently hit on Suzanne, aroused by her resemblance to Dierdre. Sensibly enough, Suzanne concluded that with Betty consumed by lesbian urges, Don might be ripe for some real-girl action. Brilliant plot development. Bravo!

Outside of the emotive aspects, it still was a great episode in it's own otherwise as well.

What terrific writing. The dialogue between characters in every corner was so perfectly funny, smart, deep and poignant. Give them credit. Regarding the crafting of this episode I think it's a shame the dialogue writing may be overlooked, this was great.

I'll spare the repeating of lines but Peggy going for the nooner with Duck, saying she'll be, "at the printers" was terrific. Gotta love Peggy being one of the guys pulling Don's favorite excuse.

Speaking of Peggy and Duck, last week we had a parallel with 2 men dealing in their own way with younger women, at the same time. And we have it here again.

Even further speaking of young women, you have 2 young women fighting over the same older man, Jane and Margaret competing over Roger. Different ways obviously, but still competing.

Competition as a theme this episode:
Pete vs Ken, Pete lost.
Don vs Henry, looks like a loss in this round for Don.
Jane vs Margaret

Pete: Pete was told by Pryce that the clients' needs are feeling met with Pete. Pete hates that, however, this is the best we've seen him meet his wife's need for comfort and attention and togetherness; i.e., ironically meeting his client's needs if you will.
And if you notice, at the end Pete and Trudy are dressed a little more like Smitty as they're both talking rebellious about "the man" i.e. Sterling Cooper. I think that could end up being a big visual and foreshadowing for next year. Hmmm. We'll see.

Ok here's a thing for the women here:

I know nowadays we basically have almost no rules when it comes to appearance unfortunately, but I was under the impression that a woman is to never, ever, wear black to a wedding, at least back then if not now. Jane wore black. It fits the profile of Jane to be accidentally rude like that, and I'm almost positive that's the way it used to be. So, you tell me....?

I think Betty will get caught in her Henry business. In prior episodes we've seen her take on, in her own way, some parallels with Don. Know what else I think she's parallel with Don? Her sloppiness regarding her extracurricular activities. Taking a drive to go see someone who is not the spouse? What had Don been doing in the early mornings? Taking a drive to see someone who is not the spouse. Also, being shady in the meeting, wether it's him sneaking up to Farrell's place, or Betty meeting Henry in a parking lot. Both shady and sloppy. They deserve each other.

But back to a structural thing, Betty feeling grief over the events of the day is pretty much in conjunction with Betty feeling grief over her marriage and situation. And those two things colliding make for a bad marriage, pun intended.

Is there anything to Don, when he's chatting with Peggy at the end, looking at the Aquanet sketches but he flips them upside down back upon her desk?

Near the very end, Don coming downstairs to the disgruntled Betty doing the morning thing, looking right at Betty and you hear that cold wind, allegedly, from outside. No accident of audio.....

The obvious will get all the attention but this really was a great episode, give them credit.

I am sure everyone is going t feel sorry for Don. Don't forget that he was playing house with Sally's teacher less than a week before this episode was set.

I find it impossible to believe that Henry is the real deal. That would be too easy for Betty, and in this show, knowone gets a "happily ever after".

Interesting that Betty didn't ask for a divorce. I canrt wait to see what advice she gets next week.

The history on this show is, of course, fictionalized to a certain extent. However, the mythology of the JFK shooting was so greatly exaggerated in this episode as to destroy all credibility. Some of the melodramatic dialogue was absurd and cornball. That event, like certain others through the years, has been grossly inflated over ensuing decades. To most Americans at the time, it was no big deal.

Great episode.

I am sure a lot of people are feeling very sorry for Don. Remember, he was playing house with Sally's teacher less than a week earlier.

I find it hard to believe that Henry is the real deal. That would be too easy for Betty, and in this show knowone gets a "happliy ever after".

I thought it was interesting that betty didn't actually ask for a divorce. Alos, interesting that Don didn't walk out after their discussion and didn't reach out to the teacher that night of the next morning. . That would have been his typical response.

Thank you Christopher. You're a scholar and a gentleman! :)
I am not surprised by Betty's actions at all. I think she is looking for a subsitute father, and Don's lies have just caught up with him, she can't trust him anymore. That's all I wanted to say. There's more, but alas, for another time. Like after next week's episode. I did not find it odd that they showed absolutely no previews for next week.
Ah, that annoying time between Sunday night 11 p.m. until next Sunday at 9 p.m. lol

I absolutely love this show. This was another great episode, and I'm so happy they addressed the Kennedy assassination. In fact, I didn't think that they would show as much actual footage of the news...but I'm glad they did.

I'm glad Betty told Don how she feels. This should make for a MORE than interesting Season 4. I thought Jon Hamm, once again, did a great job...I can't wait to see the rest of his reaction while sitting in the chair, thinking about what Betty told him.

For once, I liked Pete tonight as well. For once he didn't seem sociopathic, but human.

Duck proved himself, once again, to be an idiot. Unplugs the tv.....my god.

Anyway, I really liked this episode, adore this show, and really wish that there were 26 episodes per season instead of only 13.

Question: Does Henry Francis have the money it would take to keep Betty living the life she has been accustomed to?

Does Henry Francis have the money it would take to support Betty? She is a high maintence type person - beautiful home and clothes, horseback riding, help, etc...

I'm going to say that the finale will obviously involve the news that Sterling Cooper is once again up for sale.
Don meets with Connie...

Ya know Don, if you would just smoke some grass with Peggy, and learn how to open up, maybe you could get your wife and life back. I'm just sayin'...

Pammaddict, I;m glad no previews,keeps the suspense going. You seem very nice.I was just showing a little sarcasm before, but you know what I was getting at,I'm sure.

"It will be Okay". "It will be all right". Both Don and Henry trying to assure Betty that all will be fine. But she's not buying it. And for good reason. Everything will NOT be okay or all right. The assassination of JFK caused many changes in many people's lives. It was a terrible time in the country. I was 26 at the time and watching this episode brought back a flood of feelings. Hearing the song at the end was all most too much..."...don't they know it's the end of the world..." It was the end of an era of naivety and some innocence.

It's the end of the Draper's world as they knew it, too. Nothing will or can be the same from here on.

@GREG - re wearing black at a wedding. I'm not sure about that, but have always heard that women shouldn't wear white so as not to detract from the bride.

Another thought - I think it was the first time I recall Betty really smiling - almost laughing - when talking about Singing in the Rain, her favorite movie. She went from downcast to smiling all in a few seconds...it was a sweet moment. (Even though I don't trust Henry and his motives, he does seem to be able to reach Betty.)

Peggy: I guess we can assume that she has moved in to her new apartment. I liked her little speech to Don about how Peggy's mother was praying so hard there was no room for anybody else's feeling.

I think there will be a suicide in next week's episode. It was too weird that Roger said to Jane in the bathroom, "Don't commit suicide." Maybe Joan's husband dies in their bathroom at their home?

This is a test post, since my other one apparently get posted.

I loved this episode, as usual, and was glad that they fully addressed reactions to President Kennedy's assassination.

I like Betty a bit more, and feel for her. However, she is still such an AWFUL parent...really missing some chips. When she's sitting down in the living room listening to the news, and her daughter goes to comfort her...she doesn't bundle up her children in her arms or anything. She really didn't touch her at all. I'm not even a parent and think that she's one helluva cold "mother". Something was definitely missing in her childhood.

Thought the parallels between Peggy and Don were fantastic. Loved that they were the only 2 that had nowhere to go on Monday, except to the office....

I wouldn't be surprised if Don and Betty's marriage doesn't end next week. How sad to stay in this aweful marriage any longer, but that is just the sort of twist I'd expect from MM. These are two peopl who really have no idea how to cope.

Pete and Trudy's evolution as a couple (they seem to be getting closer due to adversary) is an interesting turn of events.

Also, when Pete contacts Duck about moving over and bringing all his accounts, somehow Pete will understand that Duck and Peggy are an item and he will have to react to it - maybe changes his mind about moving, since he can't deal with another man involved with Peggy?

Wow. This episode made me cry, a couple times. Once when seeing the employees of Sterling Cooper react to the Kennedy assassination. Something about it just hit a nerve; Don emerging onto a completely empty office, in an almost surreal scene. It captured the horror and the irreality of the assassination.

The other time I cried was after Betty told Don she doesn't love him and he goes up to their room looking like he's been punched in the gut--the heartbreak! I understand all the reasons Betty said what she said, but the tragedy is that I think Don actually really loves Betty, but has never been able to really show it or fully experience the feeling. All his wasted affairs, what was the point? He had her love and then he lost it. I wanted him to say something, anything to Betty when she made her declaration, to at least say, "I love you." But he couldn't, and that's why he was always doomed to lose her.

On an unrelated note, looks like Pete and Trudy keep getting closer. And Duck: someone above said it was stupid of him to have unplugged the TV. I found it romantic. Like, even a presidential assassination won't keep him from his romantic tryst with Peggy. As for Joan and Sterling: Sterling screwed up big time marrying what's-her-face and maybe he's finally beginning to realize it.

Did anyone else notice this? The scene where he stops and looks into the kitchen as Betty served breakfast to the kids -the door frames his image into a world that he nolonger is apart of... Then, the final scene of the show illustrates the same door frame -but, now an image into Don's new world alone.
I LOVE this Show!!!

We also need to think about Roger's and Joan's relationship. Roger is married to a woman who is so young she couldn't vote for Kennedy in '60s (voting age was 21). She passes out on him, so she is not there for him on one of the nightmare nights of his life. Joan is there, smart, savvy, and sober. Where is this going? Are they just going to be phone buddies?

No matter how much longer this series continues, I think Episode Twelve will always be remembered by me as the show’s climax. It’s no accident that the writers have the Kennedy years coinciding with the rise and fall of Dick Whitman as Don Draper. Like DD, the presidential façade that JFK created meant far more to people than the man himself, though they mistakenly thought the two were actually the same. Even his crowning moment, the Cuban missile crisis, was achieved on the backs of countless others from both sides working behind the scenes to bring the impasse to a peaceful resolution. And when he was killed, people suddenly felt adrift and fatherless, not, as they thought, because the man himself was gone, but that their own beliefs in what he represented, like images in the mirror, were shattered. Suddenly they saw the world was really a cruel and lonely place where they were expected to make their own way. They had to become “adult.”

Episode Twelve is awash in disappointments, reflecting the country’s loss of its young father-protector. Pete doesn’t get the position he wanted. Roger’s daughter’s wedding is catastrophic. Peggy’s rendezvous is interrupted by television news and, as Duck runs to call his children, finds herself abandoned in bed. Even Roger sees the need to turn away from his child bride on this awful day and console himself by calling is ex-lover.

But it’s Betty who seems the strongest in the storm, bolstered by the shock of the assassination to finally recognize the difference between her image of her husband---built on years of lies---and what he actually is. Rather than paralyzed by events like everyone else, she now finds the courage to act, to take her life in her own hands and head for unchartered territory..

And as the result of all this, the full extent of Dick/Don’s years of underlying panic finally reveals itself. For years his success, both personally and professionally depended on his ability to create in the minds of others the image of an all-powerful Don Draper, all-wise and rock solid. Even to his wife. And all the while in constant dread somebody would discover what a fake he really is. And now it’s happened and he’s destroyed!

@Take Five -the Aqua Net ad played out just like you thought it would.

Maybe Peggy tells Duck about having Pete's baby, and Duck rescinds the offer to let Pete join his firm, so Pete is left without a job, having quit SC.

I am a little tired of the Kennedy assassination (I had hoped Wiener would not spend as much time on it as he did), and I found this Mad Men episode boring beyond belief for two reasons (one being the Kennedy assassination). Every year about this time the Boomers (of which I am one) seem to revel in all the specials on TV regarding it, and anything they can lay their hands on to read that has any mention of it. It has now been 46 years ago that this endlessly re-hashed event took place (it is lost in the mists of time and no matter what you relish in remembering where you were and what you were doing, it's long done with and over); additionally, more than a few other noteworthy things have happened since that time (such as 9/11 to mention only one). I am tired of the Kennedy assassination films, the endless repeats of the commentary (exactly how many more times in my life, I wonder, must I sit and listen to the late Walter Cronkite announce that Kennedy died?). I have the whole thing indelibly etched into my memory and it's like watching an endless re-run of which there seems no end. And though I realize I don't have to watch this stuff year in and year out, it's difficult to miss this time of year. It's kind of like when they played the planes hitting the World Trade Center over and over and over to the point I just tuned out and no longer cared. Enough! Someone stated on another thread that the country is still in mourning over this or still reeling or some such drama. No, we are not. It's the media and those who want to make a buck off the sad event that keep it alive and kicking.

Also, Mad Men has become the "Don and Betty and Family" show. They are like a completely dysfunctional family that apparently have become Wiener's sole focus. Mad Men seems to spend more time in the Draper house (specifically the living room and Don and Betty's bedroom) than any where else. Their children are boring too and add little in helping the plot move along. I have been a faithful viewer up to this point and I will watch next week's finale, but next season? I don't know. Why not rename it "The Draper Hour." Thought the first two seasons were great. This season, not so much.

Is any one else having trouble here? I posted twice and my posts never seemed to appear.

This is my fourth posting. My posts are not appearing. Is any one else having problems here?

Oh, sorry, there are a couple of postings I made. This site is weird. It takes forever for your posting to appear. And forever to sign on!

Hello everyone,
This episode was great...but where's Sal?...also it's interesting how Sally comforts Betty as she's crying about the death, in contrast to Betty's reaction towards Sally when she was grieving over Gene...

Don and Betty: I've wanted Betty to leave Don since I realized he wasn't going to change. Then he admitted the truth about his past to her and It appeared as though he would change. He started appreciating Betty, probably because she seemed to accept him either way.

It was revealed that Dons biggest fear was Betty not loving him. It seems he was the catalyst of his own fears (after all he put Betty through). But I actually felt sorry for him when Betty poignantly tells him she doesn't love him...

I wonder if she'll actually go through with it and leave... I'd like to see her independent, maybe with a job. The way Helen Bishop struggled as a single mother and all the other housewives made fun of her...It would be interesting.

After you post, make sure to hit the refresh button.

mod squad: I have been hitting the refresh button but for some reason my posts are taking a while to appear. Well, perhaps things will improve. Had a lot of trouble initially just getting on here.

Who is leaving whom? Don actively loves Betty only when she has the upper hand. When she's down, he's got a brunette pick-me-up by his side. I think January Jones had a bravura season - can't be topped. She'll be written out of the show, at least for a while. And the show can return to Don Draper's dilemmas.

I know i should have more sympathy for Betty, but I dont. I dislike her as a human being. Don should be with someone who makes him a better person. He should not be in this cold business like marriage with Betty. And as others have said, Betty is a terrible mother, way to selfish to ever consider anyone else before her self-pietying self

I posted the above posting five minutes ago and it just now appeared. Yes, I am using the refresh button. And what this 2:36 a.m. thing? It's not even close to that time (even when you allow for the time difference). This site does not work properly.

Nice move by sleazeball Duck,pulling the plug on the TV so he can get his jollies. What a trooper Roger was at the wedding. Contrast this with the childish behavior of Joan and Margaret and Petey throughout the episode.

I feel bad for those kids with the divorce coming. It brought back painful memories when I went through it as an adult, having to shatter my kids illusions. Isn't it funny how Don has always wanted to be free of Betty and when it happens he is anything but happy. I hope they do divorce, but I hope Betty can find the gumption to resist marrying Henry.

Did Carla light up a cigarette when she arrived on assassination eve. I thought Betty and Carla might hug, guess I was wrong.

I think Don just wants to do what he wants to do all the time and have Betty at home as his attentive little wife who looks the other way with regard to his philandering and stashing money for himself, and his other identity, and all the rest.
Again, I wish Wiener and his staff would concentrate a little more on some of the other characters and get off the "Don and Betty" train for a while. To me, this seemed like the season finale, though I know it's not until next week.

@stocky Are you serious about the JFK assasination reactions being exaggerated? People still wonder about the events of that weekend, and the outlook of many people changed that day.

Betty wouldn't love Don if he were King Farouk. What a miserable twat. The real problem is her immaturity. Don will be happier without her. The School teacher is compassionate, and not a mindless Drone who is an empty shell. I think Don and Peggy are the survivors and strong ones in this thing. I mean it wasn't the end of the World when Kennedy was shot. It's just that the Liberals made a martyr out of him, but he really was not a very strong President, kind of like another talker that I know who hasn't walked as loud as he talks. I really think this show jumped the shark when the Englishmen got his foot cut off by the Lawnmower. This was a terrible episode, and not the Madmen from season one at all. And all this comment policy crap by all the junior Fidel Castro League is a bummer. Talk like us or you cant be on this site. GMAFB!!!

@Adamx6000: Yeah, thanks for noticing. I'm left feeling more than a little flat at the end of 3.12, though. What happened to that show I used to watch, enraptured, because nothing about it was predictable? Maybe I've over-thought and over-blogged. Whatever, I miss the sheer involvment that used to wash over me watching back in the days of S1 and S2. Burn-out's not just a butt in Don's ashtray.

TakeFive: I feel your pain. I too am not as enrapt with S3, and tonight I found myself watching the clock to see how much longer I had to endure Ep12. I nearly fell asleep! If I have to sit through one more re-hashing of the Kennedy assassination (the murder of America's/Camelot's knight in shining armor), I will go bonkers! It's been 46 years and I wish Wiener would have left most of that old boring footage in the vaults where it belongs.

This show has become just a bit tired and frayed around the edges. I really liked S's 1&2 a lot. S3 has been less than stellar. In fact, I get the impression the writers and Wiener are not really sure where they are going with many of the characters which is why the Draper's seem to take center stage each week, along with their dreary children.

Just watched the "The Grown-Ups"...JFK one
Does anyone know the name of the song and singer of closing
credits...Why do the birds go on singing....?
Thank you!

Fantastic representation of the Kennedy Assassination. The writers totally nailed it. Tonight's show depicted exactly how people of the era experienced that fateful weekend. (I was 22 at the time.) The idea of devoting virtually the entire show to the fateful weekend was a very clever choice. Many people had wondered how the writers would deal with it and they did a wonderrful job, Bravo to the writers and cast.
Stocky's comment that the assassination was overplayed is just nuts.
On the other hand, terrific post by MoltoMad.
If FiveMilestoMidnight is sick of the assassination, it was one of the most traumatic events of the last half of the twentieth century.

maddox: Skeeter Davis singing "End of the World."

Greg: I think Jane wore black as a sign of mourning for JFK. A lot of people wore black for those few days.Don flipped the big folder of aqua net over because it looked just like the motorcade of the Kennedy assassination.

Stocky: "no big deal" the assassination? Well it sure was in my neck of the woods. The reactions portrayed on MM tonight were very realistic in my recollection. I was in high school at the time and there were big football players bawling.

Ahuberman: Your comment about it being almost a surreal scene in the office at the end with Don and Peggy was very astute. And put a name to how I felt and also how it felt all those years ago for many of us.

moltomad: Wow, your comments blew me away! I wish I could be so articulate. Keep posting!

fivemiles etc: I can see you are a Kennedy hater along with Stocky. Not saying you guys did this, but there were some who applauded the assasination. I remember seeing reports of this happening in Dallas. To this day I won't cheer for the Dallas Cowboys.

I think the clincher for Betty not loving Don anymore is that he showed himself to be weak. We were all moved by Don's tears last week, but she had always though of him as the strong protector and provider. She touched his shoulder during his distress, but really I think she felt a tinge of disgust. And the more she thought about this "prostitute's son" the more she became appalled. From her background and personality, I don't think she can give this man, the real man, Dick, her love. Henry, she may feel, can be her savior.

Now Don is crushed. It will definitely take him awhile to get over this. But maybe he always knew this was how it would be with Betty and that's why he never told her the truth.

RandallW: Just because it was a traumatic event in the last century, so what? That doesn't mean it should be rehashed to death and beyond! So was Pearl Harbor a traumatic event. So was the Cuban Missile Crises. So were the race riots. So was the 1968 Democratic Convention. So were all the wars, world and otherwise. So were hurricanes, tsunamis, etc. So was the assassination of Abraham Lincoln and the other presidents. And let's not forget 9/11. To me, that had more impact than the murder of Kennedy who has unjustly been made a martyred king. The guy was a dirt bag in my opinion. Not that he deserved that, but he was far from the mythological figure be subsequently became. Any event or incident can be overplayed and over everything-ed, and the endless, dreary rehashing of the Kennedy saga is no exception. I am sick of seeing the newsreel footage of Kennedy and all the mythologizing of that day that is now lost in the mists of time where it belongs. It has been 46 years ago. Enough! Wiener said he was hardly going to touch upon it and he obviously decided to OD on it in the end.

Trotskyaire: Not saying "we" were in on the assassination? Is that what you mean? Sheesh, I hope not, I was 11 years old when it occurred. It's not that it was not a big deal at the time (I guess someone said it wasn't) but it has been re-hashed to death and beyond at this point. Pearl Harbor was a big deal in 1941. The Cuban Missile Crises was a big deal and so was the Bay of Pigs. Abe Lincoln's assassination was a big deal in 1865. The 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago was a big deal that year. Woodstock was a big deal in 1969. Nixon's resignation was a big deal when it happened. However, after a while the impact of the "big deals" diminishes as other "big deals" take their place.
Life goes on. Nearly everyone (Jackie, John, Jr. and so many more) are now dead and gone. Time to move on and leave this in the mists of time where it belongs.

Stocky wrote (of the JFK assassination): "That event, like certain others through the years, has been grossly inflated over ensuing decades. To most Americans at the time, it was no big deal.That event, like certain others through the years, has been grossly inflated over ensuing decades. To most Americans at the time, it was no big deal."

As someone who lived through it, I wonder what is the basis for this statement. Everything in the country stopped. I don't think anything in recent years came close to it, until 9/11. The country was in shock, as was the rest of the world.

As depicted in the episode, a few people WERE indifferent, or downright hostile. At my junior high school, most kids were in tears, while a few a****les were happy that someone finally killed that "n----------- lover."

@fivemilesto...: Not to disregard what you're sayng, but in 1963, wasn't that the big thing going on? Mad Men is in fact a show about the 60s; you knew they were going to involve it. I fully expect them to play out MLK and Malcolm X's, passing, as well as the Beatles.

I honestly saw the JFK angle as being a rather stimulating plot thread through which my favorite characters could play around. I got a big payoff in this episode, in seeing Betty own up to her true feelings. But that's me. I like the characters and I'm interested in seeing who they are going to be by the end of the decade. If I want the comfort of static situation dramas, I'll watch Law & Order.

I always get the idea that some posters want to see Mad Men reflect what we all know now in the 21st Century. But there's no way a period show can accomplish that for you.

I'm not a Boomer, I'm Gen Y, but here's an apt phrase that I'll borrow from the Millennials:

It is What It Is.

GuySmiley: I am a Boomer and thus weary beyond belief of the Kennedy's and all their drama, including the over-played assassination. Fine, it is what it is, and for me, it is in the past and that is where it stays. Too many here want to argue all night about this epic occurrence and how it was just the biggest thing to happen in the 20th century. Believe me, there are many who would disagree. I for one. End of discussion on my part. Time for bed.

Aredee: I think you just "think" everything stopped. Everything slowed for a couple of days. Monday was a day of National mourning and then it was back to business a usual. Well, perhaps you mourned on and on indefinitely but I went back to school, my father back to work, (Betty Draper met with Henry and kissed him - ha, ha), babies continued to be born, weddings went on, and we celebrated Thanksgiving (less than a week later) and then Christmas. A good time was had by all (or most). Again, perhaps you stopped living your life for a time, but I did not. Neither did the teachers at my school, or the people at my father's job, or my grandparents, or my friends, or the rest of my family. My mother continued cleaning, cooking, shopping, and stuffing the turkey, etc. This Kennedy thing gets bigger every year. Today, it is virtually meaningless. Life goes on as it always does. Period. Now I really HAVE to get to bed!

@Cat: yes, interesting that Sally was the one to comfort Betty as she was weeping, and later Sally just looked patiently and knowingly at Don when he told her "nothing" had happened when Oswald was shot. Bobby told Don in the kitchen scene "It's cold outside", as if to say "Take your coat, stay warm". The kids were the ones acting like the real Grown-Ups in this episode, especially compared to the childish griping, complaining and general feeling-sorry-for-themselves the adults expressed.

I do love this show and especially the writing, but I have to comment on some things that nobody said in 1963, because they jolt my suspension of disbelief: "hang in there" (Roger to Joan), "we'll grab some dinner" (Don to Betty), and the capper from a few episodes back, "No way" (the boy hitchhiker to Don). If Saint John/Sinjin ever tells Don to "chill out" I'm really going to groan!

Two thoughts...

The decision to go through with the reception after the JFK shooting could a parallel to the draper marirage (staying together even thought it wont bring either of them happiness). Roger staying with Jane even though he wants Joan. Sal staying in his marriage even though he is gay. Etc....

This show has really lost the balance between joy and sadness. I am not speaking specifically about this episode, which obviously had a sad subject to deal with. But the season in general - all main characters are down nearly all of the time. I get Don's unhappiness because he is damaged beyond repair and his character is supposed to be tragic. but everyone unhappy all of the time? That isn't the way people really are - most lives are a balance of happy and sorrowful times, mixed with a little humor.

The writers seem to have lost that balance and the show is moving from riveting to depressing. In S1 and S2, there was a lot of heartbreak, but there was also a balance that is now missing. I dont think I will be back for S4.

Roger now realizes that Joan was much more than "the best piece of ass that he ever had" and possibly the love of his life that he let get away. Next season, he will try to get her back but sadly, he doesn't have a chance. He will die lonely and broke.

Well, Good Grief and Jeeze Louise, I was really off on my prediction of Don being in Dallas for Hilton!!

I won't be able to post for the rest of the day...work is interfering with my MM time!

I'll catch everyone later...

One thing, I was sooo happy to see Joan again! That scene was classic. Jane passed out next to Roger, who does he call to share his shock and grief about JFK and Margaret's wedding? His one true love, JOAN!
I also loved that he pushed Jane's arm away when it landed on him!

I was 4 years old when Kennedy was shot and I clearly remember all the grownups crying. I remember sitting quietly by my mom (who was crying) and watching the funeral on tv. People stayed home.

Carla and Betty - equals on the sofa in their grief. Carla praying, turning to God. Smoking a cig! Betty, lost and stunned but glad someone (an adult) was there.

Don wanted to shield the kids from the horror but soon realized it was pointless. Betty knew that, too, and told him so. I've had many moments like that with my hubby!

Pill popping to calm their frayed nerves.....valium?

As for the wedding, I imagine many people found themselves in the same situation on 9/11 if they had weddings scheduled.

Jane: Locked the door, as if to say to Roger, "And what are you going to do about it?" She stayed in the kitchen to watch the news coverage and dismissed his attempt to get her to go out there with him while he made the wedding toast (she shot him down in front of his co-workers). At that point she didn't seem drunk. She's not as dumb as Roger would make her out to be. I think he knows if he dumped her he would have a fight on his hands.

Betty allowed Don to kiss her on the dance floor because she knew Henry was watching.

Duck and Peggy - glad I did tivo. Fast forwarded right on through.

Roger and Joan - tender moments. More to follow, I'm sure. For now it's "safe", on the phone. In person - watch out.

A lot of people and critics seem to dislike this episode, but I thought it was one of the better ones this season. The only thing I would agree with, is that there was just a little too much television watching in this episode despite the fact that the only thing people could do is glue themselves to the TV on that dark weekend in America.

Well, it's back to SF for Don. That didn't take long!

I guess Matt's "not addressing the assassination directly" meant he would not have Don in Dallas on 11/22/63. Using the TV to do a "what were you doing when you heard the news" take I thought was astoundingly well done. Huge error though when Don tells the kids Friday that "there will be a funeral Monday". No one, not even the White House, knew that at the time.

Can any of you ole timers tell me if every TV had THAT much bad reception in the olden days? I mean rheally...
My earliest memory of TV may have been in '72ish watching 'Underdog' and Jack Lalane, but I think we had a pretty good picture.
And Don not only was too much of a skinflint too spring for AC, but come on, I know they had color TV back then as well.
I guess TV was not as important and life fulfilling as it is now in futuristic times.
But at least they had a Walter Cronkite, for cryin' out loud!

Re: Aqua Net story board

They would not have realized it at that moment, but the image of two couples in a convertible cruising down the road, would be too reminiscent of the open air car that Kennedy was driving in.

Nice foreshadowing...

There's no way that commercial gets produced.

G, those TV sets in the show were getting their reception from rabbit ears. In Midtown Manhattan, the reception with rabbit ears was terrible, just as depicted. Additionally, while color receivers did exist in '63, they could only transmit in color when the signal was in color. Nome sane?

Roger and Joan. The true secretary he should have left Mona for. Love their phone conversations. so sweet.
JFK assasination was the end of innocence. Same goes for the Draper household. No more pretending that everything is alright. No more smiles. All hell will break loose.
Who was calling Lane Pryce? A potential sale or JFK premonition?
I love the comment by the roommate about Duck. Why then Peggy, why?

I think MW handled the assassination pretty well. Reactions seemed realistic to me. Everyone stormed into Harry's office to watch TV, Don came into the office to find no staff and the phones going crazy-only to stop b/c the switchboard finally went down.

You see Carla rush in with the kids seconds after Chet Huntley announced JFK's death, which Chet did a little after 2:30pm, so the kids probably got out of school about 2:15 or 2:20, so that timing seems right.

An interesting timeline-although he did a few voiceover bulletins, Walter Cronkite didn't actually go on the air (when Duck is in the hotel) until 2pm Eastern, and he announced President Kennedy's death at 2:38pm, so everything that "happened" between Peggy and Duck was within about thirty minutes. Oh, and did Paul Kinsey know who Peggy is meeting up with? He perked up when Peggy's secretary said "Mr. Herman," and he knew full well what Peggy was up to. It'll be interesting if he starts the rumor mill churning.

And poor Betty watching Lee Harvey Oswald get shot, I thought her reaction was about what you could expect. And, of course, the perfect response: get mad at Don and push him away when he tries to comfort you.

Joan made an interesting point, people still getting sick, car accidents still happening, babies being born, etc... All in all, I think MW did a very good job of weaving the story into the plot, and doing it the way he did, maybe softened it a little bit.

Back to Mad Men specifically.

I know about how Pete feels, he did everything that was asked of him and gets burned. But he still handles problems sort of like Betty, "I didn't get what I wanted, so feel sorry for me." I think he'll go to Grey's with Duck, take a bunch of clients, and mess up the sale of Sterling Cooper.

What exactly is Betty's problem? She's just moaping around-"oh, I'm mad, everyone feel sorry for me."
Either dump Don or don't, just sitting around being a jerk isn't going to magically fix the family's problems. It's only a matter of time before Don finds some new woman to sleep with, so just go ahead and marry the the bigwig from the Governor's office and let Don marry Suzanne so he can start cheating on her.

Put a fork in Betty, she's done. Finally. Typically, even once she tells Don she doesn't love him anymore he recedes into denial. "You're distraught". Yes Don. It's the weirdest thing. When one feels their world turned upside down they run into the arms of the person who makes them feel safe and secure. You've spent years making sure you wouldn't, couldn't be a person to make her feel safe and secure. First the loss of one parent, then another. In each life changing event you have forced her to rely on her own resources. You took off with the jet set last year and while you were rediscovering why you married her in the first place she was figuring out that she really doesn't need you. That when the fit hits the shan she has only herself to rely on. Now, the damage is done. You've taught her well. Unfortunately for you, you've learned nothing. You were right about one thing, she will have no problem finding someone else.

Indeed, the historical relevance of Jack Kennedy's shooting has been blown out of all proportion by a small fringe of revisionist conspiracy theorists and twilight-zone nutsos. Over the decades they have created a bizarre myth bearing scant resemblance to reality. Most Americans respected the Presidency as an office, and they admired Jackie Kennedy -- a classy lady. Still, they knew Jacko was a lightweight whose bootlegger daddy bought him the office with massive voter fraud in the Chicago ghetto, a corrupt slimeball and a whoremonger. The prevailing sentiment was, "Let's move on."

Jane gets falling down drunk at every social event. These weren't secretarial pool parties with stray men and little airline bottles of liquor. They were social events in an era where appearance, networking and composure still mattered, much more so for wives than husbands.

Jane's a mess, a fish out of water, pretty but not Roger sees it now. The "shiny" has worn off his toy. Joan would never have done this to him. She'd have given him good sex AND proper social behavior, even is she wasn't born to or reared in that "set."

Funny thing though, marrying Jane first could be an asset to any future marriage of Joan and Roger. If he'd married Joan first after the divorce his daughter and everyone else would hate her just as they do Jane. Dumping Jane, marrying Joan.... she'd be almost a relief to everyone and of course, she has improved her status a bit by being a wife of a doctor.

G,

Yes, absolutely, that was the most accurate portayal of back-in-the-day TV reception I have *ever* seen anywhere, in movies or on television. That is 100% exactly how it was.

Nothing ever changes on this site. The same old menopausal bags posting and reposting: Zabadu, TakeFive, Zerelda. Its a terrific demographic for you. I'd expect the sponsor to be Depends.

Did anyone else catch the subtle subtext of Joan's not being upset by JFK's assasination? Remember her character is supposed to be a closet racist, and JFK was infamous among many for his policy on civil rights...

I can see why Betty would be so sad. Doesn't work,has a Nanny for the Kids,Nice House,Great looking husband,buys whatever she wants,Great Make out car to use with her Boyfriend.
She needs to be put in Joans situation,she would appreciate her life more.

6465NYWF, she was more upset over Marilyn Monroe's death and that wasn't much. Joan is very nearly unflappable, but when she does get upset, better clamp your hands over the back of your head.

If Don is smart, and I believe is, he should contact a PI to follow Betty and to log the phone calls. Their marriage is like so many typical marriages, initially there was plenty of love to go around, then kids and careers, and then one or both strays, and it is very difficult to forgive. The once burning love they had for each other has dimmed and it is so much easier to find joy in the arms of another person. Once you have had an affair, the next one is easier until, its just another notch on the bedpost.
Henry is the idiot, Betty is a damaged trophy wife, just like the pretend romantic dance at Rogers wedding. Unfortunately men are simple, they are stimulated by what they see, and Betty is really an attractive woman, women on the other hand are stimulated by what they hear.
I believe Don will wind up in California with Suzanne, she represents the freedom he desperately desires.
Interestingly, I watched an old Soprano's on A&E, Tony and Meadow were visiting Bowdoin College and Tony read the quote from Hawthorne, No man can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude without finally getting bewildered as to which one may be true.

I loved this episode, although the news footage did grate on my nerves after a while. Some thoughts:
I love Pete in this episode-- he shows a depth of character that we haven't seen before, I think. When he doesn't get the job, of course he goes home to sulk and eat out of the casserole dish like a baby, but he expresses real emotions to Trudy, who is such a fine little wife/mommy to him. And he and Trudy communicate with one another in a much more authentic way than most of the others on this show, specifically it makes me think of how shallow Don and Betty's talks always are.
On a smuttier note, I too find Duck and Peggy a little too freakish for my tastes, but the scene where Peggy is lying in the bed with only the sheet for cover, and she sits upright as they hear the news on the television-- that is the most beautiful and luminous Peggy has ever looked. I think it is the way Peggy has always been so bound up, so tight, so painfully plain and utilitarian-- this bare shouldered loose haired look suits her!!
On a fashion note, maybe Jane's dress is midnight blue lace, not black. Mona's dress was a shade of blue, maybe Jane just went for more drama. Whatever color it was, she did look stunning in it, with those big creamy pearls at her throat. And Margaret, sweet little child like Margaret, how adorable and lost she looks in her enormous wedding fluff. I think all brides should begin wearing veils with feather crowns and their very high hair-dos popping out above the crown.
Did anyone else notice the name of the band on the podium during the reception? It said 'The Percy Collins Orchestra' on the front of the bass drum. I've been googling that name trying to see if it was a real group, but having no luck.
On a tender note, Roger calling Joan just made me so sad for them both. Oh, how the times have changed for them.
And finally, the sight of Don almost peeking round the corner, looking at Betty the morning after she tells him she doesn't love him. Like a little boy, wondering if it will ever be alright again. And Betty silent as a stone, and icy in that pale shiny housecoat. Makes me shake my head at the prospect of their future.

This is my first Mad Men post. I’ve read so many on many different blogs, and just get depressed that so many people don’t understand this incredible show. So I thought I’d go to the source. The writers in particular on this show are absolutely astounding. (Yes, I know, everyone else involved is too, but especially the writers.)

I should tell you that my father was Don Draper (or he thought he was), and my mother was Betty (in her mind at least). I lived this life. The details of this show are excruciatingly on target. Much of this show is like watching home movies for me. I lived through many of these events.

Remember that this show is a history lesson, not of events, but of people -- how they’ve changed, and what’s changed them. Every episode has a theme. Look for patterns in behavior or events, patterns in relationships, patterns in the way people treat each other. The title of each episode is usually a good starting point.

“Grown-Ups” is a term children use, or adults use when talking to children. What is a grown-up? Let me offer that a grown-up is someone that holds things together, that keeps their head while the rest of the world is falling apart. How many grownups can you count in this episode? Of the active characters, I count five: Lane (who informs Pete he’s not a big boy yet), Mona (who holds the wedding together), Harry (who tells Pete he knows his own fate and accepts it), Peggy (who goes to the office to escape her child-mother), and Joan (who comforts her lover-child Roger). Don is almost there, but he’s inconsistent, as shown by his immature conflict with Lane. His confessions to trophy wife Betty should have moved their relationship to a ‘grown-up’ level, thereby earning them both that status, but Daddy’s-girl Betty is a child and will always be one. (What a telling moment when her mature daughter Sally comforts her. Don also treats her like a little girl: “Take a pill and lie down.”)

Are you ready for this: Betty is Lee Harvey Oswald. “He’s only 24 years old ,“ she says. A moment later, Oswald is shot, and she screams out. This is a dramatic device as old as Shakespeare. Betty wants to assassinate Don, and emotionally she does so. Poor Don, after years of childish lying, confesses to Betty and is obviously ready to move their relationship to a higher level, only to find that now he just isn’t good enough. “I don’t love you,” she says, putting a bullet in his heart. Dramatically he ‘dies’ as he drags himself upstairs and sits in the dark.

As far as the Betty-Don relationship goes, don’t expect a lot of change. My own parents carried on a private war off-and-on for twenty years. I was the oldest of six kids who were all probably unwanted and unplanned, and spread out over fifteen years. My father frequently left after a huge fight to spend weeks in motels, and my mother was always seething with resentment and jealously. Then they would make up, and a kid would pop out nine moths later. My father was a workaholic and was always “at the office” day and night, just like Don. So this TV relationship can go anyway they want to take it. Most likely Betty will get involved with the philanderer Henry, who will eventually dump her. Don is a puzzle. It’s obvious, though. that he liked un-shielding his secrets and having an honest relationship. With Betty’s rejection, however, he may just go backwards.

I just want to say a few things about the Kennedy assassination. If you didn’t live through that time, you can’t understand what Kennedy was to us. He wasn’t a king, but a prince. He was that older brother we all wish we had. He was Lancelot, and he championed us and fought for us. Just the year before, we all really thought we were going to die when the Cuban Missle Crisis went nuclear. He saved us. For a couple of years, politics didn’t matter anymore, and he was everyone’s president. He was on TV a lot, and he was so personable, we all felt like we knew him. I was in the eight grade, and I was standing outside my junior high school gym doors when I heard he was shot. I know which way I was facing, and I could probably pick the floor tiles I was standing on. That’s how great the impact was of his death. Of course, the Kennedy image wasn’t real, just as the Don Draper image isn’t real, but that doesn’t matter.

I wondered why this episode spent so much time showing clips from TV, but then I realized that this is exactly what we did during those few days. I remember being so annoyed at the constant repetition of meaningless interviews and rehashing of the same news over and over again, as if somehow we might catch some fantastic news that it wasn’t true, and it never really happened. 9/11, as tragic as it was, was faceless. I remember the chill that went up my spine and anguish I felt as I watched those towers collapse, but I didn’t know those faceless people inside. The personal impact wasn’t there. I was angry more than sad.

Thought this was a semi decent episode, the one thing that bothered me was the fact that Henry was already talking marriage with Betty after what? Two kisses, she will end up getting caught with him. I don't know what to say about Don he is actually showing that he is human and after all of his affairs and lying he is still shocked about Betty not loving him anymore.

Peggy and Duck not cool, Duck is a jerk pulling the plug on the TV so he can get his groove on. Peggy can do so much better than him.

Love the Roger and Joan action I miss the two of them together hopefully, next season they will be back together.

Finally, I think I'm the only one that love's Don's and Peggy's interaction with each other, when they look at each other its like they're looking in the mirror. I think Peggy would be perfect for Don because she is just like him in many ways not all. I also see her dating Duck as like doing something because it's the next best thing type of attitude. Maybe she is secretly attracted to Don?

@liquor: don't underestimate Betty. She knows the only way she can get a divorce is to prove adultery. I wouldn't put it past her to find a way to do just that. She has gone from depression to anger to apathy. The lack of emotion will allow her to deal with the situation with a cool head. Don't underestimate her using Henry. She may use Henry to get the info/proof she needs to allow a divorce where she actually wins. Also don't underestimate Betty's ability to leave the kids along with Don. It may just occur to her that forcing Don to take the kids in a divorce will hinder him professionally. Don may not want the kids. So far he's shown that he's a father only when its convenient. Betty has been there throughout. Remember their conversation at the stables last season when Don came back from the jet set. Betty: "It must be nice to take time whenever you need it" implying that meanwhile she was still there, performing her function as Mother. She knows that being forced to fulfill his duties as father without those breaks where he takes off at a whim will cramp his style. We have seen naive Betty, depressed Betty, angry Betty and cold Betty. We are about to see vindictive Betty.

It's fascinating to see how human imagination can create an illusion which, for a few, becomes more tangible than reality. A little scary, huh? I was only ten when Oswald shot Kennedy, but I recall it well. The earlier post which described that event as "no big deal" was spot on. It was a blip in history, no more. Yes, there were a handful of people who freaked out, but they tended to be individuals already known for their emotional instability, like Betty Draper. It's just silly to get carried away and pretend that Kennedy was regarded as anything more than a dilettante at the time. The great majority of citizens found his shooting to be an annoyance due to the many inconveniences it caused. Us kids, however, thought it was pretty "neat-o" (in the vernacular of the day) because we got off school.

Bipolar, you are so right1

Have never posted here before and prob. won't again. Just wanted to thank Don Jr. for the terrific 8 paragraphs written above. Beautifully written, lucid, insightful and true to what I recall as an 8-year old at the time of JFK's death. The Betty as LHO motif is truly inventive and provocative. Thank you so much for taking the time to write what you did.

Have never posted here before and prob. won't again. Just wanted to thank Don Jr for the terrific eight paragraphs above. Beautifully written, lucid, and true to events as I recall them. Thanks for having taken the time to write what you did. The Betty as LHO motif is insightful and provocative in the best sense.

@ Mynose - Are you saying this to be obnoxious? You knew all this at ten? I (at 11) certainly didn't think it was "neat-o" to watch someone get shot in front of me on tv! Nor did I think a presidential assassination was a blip! And being Irish Catholic I didn't know anybody who thought Kennedy was a lightweight. I still only know a few people who wanted Adlai Stevenson. I had Republican relatives but they liked Kennedy! (Or maybe people in general respected the office of President of the US back then, in ways that they do not today.) Maybe you didn't have cousins in the Peace Corps or maybe you weren't a girl idolizing Jackie's fab-looking life as a mother who actually had fun, riding and water skiing, playing with her kids.

Don_jr: beautiful commentary. You've hit the nail on the head. Weiner managed to capture the tragedy of the assassination with grace and realism. He had to use lots of clips, because we were literally GLUED to the tv during those four horrible days. I was 8....I didn't realize then what a horrific time it was.....but as I grew up, and as I learned the details of the forces against Kennedy, it made me sick and sad. The forces are still around us, and they are scary.
I have read almost every book about the assassination and was very anxious to see how MM would handle it....brilliant job.
And you smug self righteous bloggers who can't see what the big deal is about the assassination....I pity you.

The question I have after this episode is: Is the cash still in the drawer? How long will it be there? Betty now has her own key. Will Betty take the cash and stash it for a rainy day? Has Don removed the cash to insure she can't? Will Don think that's necessary now that Betty has dropped the bombshell that she doesn't love him?

@Greg?
@liquor?

What would you have done at this point????

I agree about Henry Francis - I think he is sure about marrying Betty because Betty is ideal political trophy wife material, at least on the surface. I think she was so deprived of what she needed that his attentions got to her. But the way of the 60s was for teh Don and Bettys to crack - some to split, some to survive, because that traditional suburban American marriage didn't take care of anybody's needs. (In Europe it's accepted that people have dalliances - they don't divorce because it's too expensive!)

@BBK: FYI, those smug self righteous bloggers are all the same troll under different names. His only purpose is to bait normal people to respond. Ignore him and he will tire and go away.

MYNOSE: It's just silly to get carried away and pretend that Kennedy was regarded as anything more than a dilettante at the time. The great majority of citizens found his shooting to be an annoyance due to the many inconveniences
I believe you are mistaken to suggest that Kennedy's killing was just an "annoyance" to a "great majority." I expect it may have just been an annoyance to some who were politically opposed to him, but I believe a great majority were shaken by the event -- supporters and non-supporters (including those who considered him a "dilettante") alike. An "annoyance " does not create an indelible memory in the minds of all of us who were alive at the time, and over the age of 4.

1) WTF is going on with Francis that he would ask Betty to Marry him? Did I miss an episode where they did more than steal a kiss or spend more than an hour together?
2) I'd feel for Don if he hadn't screwed Suzanne even since the separation. He wrote that letter to Betty from his heart and then proceeded to burn it.
3) As per a previous post I wrote; boy is Don's goose cooked. Betty could say to Don "Grant me a divorce by admitting adultery, give me the kids, etc etc etc or I'll tell them about Dick. He'll be lucky to have a pot to piss in.
Overall, in just about every way, Don's life is looking bleak but then he's worked so hard to make it so.
4) I loved the way they portrayed the how the assassination messed with people's heads. It cast a pall on the whole country down to the little+big things in their lives

I want to post on some of the scenes:

When Betty and Don were dancing at the wedding, he had the sexiest look on his face! And, it was at Betty! I loved that scene.
Then when Betty was walking toward Don and Henry, I almost thought she was going to pass right by Don, and go to Henry! *deep sigh of relief*
Is Betty thinking this through? I don't think so. The stronger she gets, the weaker Don gets.
That breakfast scene was so powerful, and nothing was said between Betty and Don. Tension so thick you could cut it with a knife.

Someone commented on Pete and Trudy look like Smittie&co. I thought so too. Very Greenwich Village.

@carred'hermes: Could the ideal political wife be a divorce' in 1963?

Yikes, the Kennedy assassination, and all the memories it provokes. Having the principal of our school announce it over the loudspeaker, which was totally bizarre ("Boys and girls, the President has been shot.") Being let out for recess when it wasn't recess, presumably while the teachers conferred, then sent home (!?). The kids at recess all joined hands in a circle and chanted, "Kennedy, Kennedy, rah-rah-rah! Kruschev, Kruschvev, boo-boo-boo!" It had to be "the Russians'. That's how we had been conditioned.

I remember seeing the shooting of Oswald, but it looks staged, in retrospect, with the camera conveniently moving in for a closeup. Everyone was so dazed they didn't see it ('til about 20 years later). I was astonished Betty was crying (though still looking chic with a red nose), when going through all that shit and hell with Don left her dry-eyed.

I have to say it again: January Jones has no capacity to show emotion. Love? Blank face. Rage? Blank face. Passion? Blank face.

Duck, Jesus, LEAVE NOW. Sal is gone, but Duck comes back? And calling Peggy "Pee-Wee" was bizarre. I'm afraid Sal may not come back, though they showed him heaving something (whatever it was) in the preview for next week. That's a story line that deserves to be developed, but notice how the writers have pulled back over and over again.

It's not surprising that a handful of the individuals who have inflated Kennedy to martyr stature have gravitated to this episode. They're the same crowd who report UFO sightings and get all worked up about crop circles. Their fevered illusions about Kennedy provide reinforcement for the notion that Americans of all kinds were more than incidentally bothered by his shooting. I, however, was ten years of age at the time, so I know first-hand how things really were. Mass ennui. Looky, if somebody has a psychological need to fantasize about "Camelot" -- or about BigFoot -- (ha ha ha ha) I have no desire to burst their bubble. C'est la vie.

@Carried: The only way Betty could appear to be an ideal trophy wife to Henry is if she publicly proclaimed Don's deception by seeking an annullment; hence people would take pity on her. Otherwise, she's a divorcee with 3 children. Another Happy Rockefeller. And we know how people reacted to that marriage. Not good.

Betty cannot "out" Don - he would be arrested and there would be a trial. I don't believe she would do that to her children.

I enjoyed last nights episode for a number of reasons. Even with all the clips, most of the cast had some scenes.

Poor Pete! He never seems to get the rewards he thinks are coming his way. I think it was Mod Squad who made a comment about a possible suicide next week. I'm hoping it doesn't happen, but I did notice that Pete's rifle was seen in his office this episode.

Henry's marriage proposal to Betty seemed outrageous to me. I've heard of love at first sight, but they've only met on 6 different occasions, and kissed a couple of times. Is that enough to base a marriage on? I hope that she doesn't seriously consider the offer. She didn't know much about Don when she married him; you hope that she would learn something from this.

While the Kennedy shooting seems to have brought Pete and Trudy and Betty and Henry closer together, it seems to have had a negative effect on all other relationships.

For many memories of the JFK assassination is a lot more than mere nostalgia.
Most posters here who lived through it as at least young adults will remember it as a central experience in their lives. Contrary to comments that the show exaggerated the event, I think it would be impossible to overestimate how unhinging a moment it was for people all over the world.

I’m always reminded of a line in Shakespeare’s Macbeth where Macbeth
talks about “the treasure of nature’s germens tumble all together,” a way to describe when the best of connections between men and nature fall apart. And that’s the way it was. Suddenly there was this black hole in people’s lives as if all normal life was suspended for three days. Things like weddings, funerals and important business meetings became insignificant. Even the most unthinkable happened for those days - COMMERCIAL-FREE TELEVISION!! Instead, everybody gave themselves over to a communal grief, united by 24-hour images of Air Force One landing with the body, Jackie’s bloodied skirt, John John’s saluting his father, Ruby shooting Oswald. And those drums!

There were people who didn’t go to bed from Friday to Monday glued to their TVs. It was the world’s first encounter with some electronic global village that television could make possible. It was theater on a world scale and the horror of it took on a kind of beauty.

That same feeling was beautifully captured years later in the last scene of The Deer Hunter movie where the song“God Bless America” was used as a desperate attempt to help put a shattered world back together.

Adiamond: I was thinking the same thing. Although, I think it is safe to assume that Betty and Henry have been corresponding (by snail mail of course). I know thay had done so in previous episodes. Still doesn't seem like enough involvement to prompt the quetion of marriage.

Permeating theme of maturity vs immaturity involved everyone:

Roger - gives a fantastic speech, using black humor but also diplomatic finesse to save the disastrous wedding reception. “As adults we all want to be strong for you, but your spirit, your love, your hope, is giving us strength.”
Mona - dealing with Margaret before and during the wedding.
Margaret - spoiled brat, but has to bite the bullet and go through with wedding in spite of Jane.
Jane - snagging the boss turns out to be over her head, but still trying to do the right thing by buying a gift for Margaret.
Pete - exaggerated, he didn’t actually get fired; but not losing his temper; seeing the gravity of the assassination.
Trudy - very supportive and smart, a great partner.
Peggy - being a “big girl”, a woman of the world, in loveless lunchtime trysts with Duck.
Joan- Seeing it all in perspective in the middle of it - “Babies are still being born,” etc.
Sally - being the parent, comforting Betty with a hug.
Henry - “We’ve lost alot of presidents, but we’re still here.”
Everybody - the assassination of Kennedy is momentarily bigger than all their personal dramas.

@Trotskyaire & others: Betty’s fed up with Don because of his chronic dishonesty, whether it’s about infidelity, she never knows where he is, he never shares his career with her, and now the family secrets and false identity. Unlike Don’s affairs, I think Betty’s thing with Henry is not about adultery, it’s about a life change.

@huberman, @Cat: The sad thing about relationships - how hard it is not to take someone for granted. But that’s how you lose them, and then you’ve lost everything. Singing in the Rain - what a contrast to The End of the World. I felt what Don must be feeling, a teenager’s heartbreak.

I'm thinking Betty has some serious leverage right now. Curious to see what happens in Finale and next season. Needless to say, I will have nothing to watch on TV for a very long while. Oh, the agony.

I was about 13 on that day and went to a catholic school in NY. We were dismissed early and everybody -- I mean everybody -- on the street, the bus, the subway -- was crying and/or subdued. The writers did try, but don't think they went far enough. It was more like 9/11, IMO.

Also, remember watching the funeral/cortege on TV for days - repeats, yes, but we we absolutely devastated and no one knew how to react, even our parents. They were blown away, and we, as kids, didn't know what to make of the future.

Also, Betty, really??? That guy?? Freud would have a field day with you.

Can't wait til next week.

HENRY- I see him as a predator that sees weakness and an easy opportunity in Betty. He knows she's childish but he is phyically attracted to her. His marriage proposal is based on his belief she needs to hear this to move forward in their relationship. I can't believe he would ever marry her- a divorcee with 3 kids does not fit for a polictially active guy like him.
DON- Now that he's finally come clean with Betty and is trying for once to be a good family man (the scene where he went to the baby's room first), he now sees his past actions ruining the life he now wants. Loved the scene of him looking into the kitchen at the family. Sometimes you don't appreciate what you have until you see it going away. And wait until the pending sale of SC is announced- Don is middle management and the most vulnerable. It's all coming apart!
BETTY- She needs to be careful. If she burns the bridge with Don she will find herself with nothing. He's the best thing she has at this point. Not saying much but...

PS - Also, wasn't Jane in black& white, not just total black, for Margaret's wedding? Also in those days if you were YOUNG, you werent reading Ms. Manner's directions. It was a pre-hippie era & if you had any guts whatsover, you dressed as you pleased. Rock on, Jane.

I just watch 'The Grown-Ups' from my itunes download. I feel so numb, after watching this episode. I'll weigh in more, later. To quote Betty, "I can't stop crying." I can't stop crying! Wow. What a powerful episode, but one very satisfying turn of events: It was fantastic to see the glimmers of doubt Roger is having about Jane, and that he may have created a monster here. What was the cherry on this episode is that it looks like Joan is 'the one'. I loved that he called her when he needed her to talk to him. Just like old times :-)

My first time here- But I haven't seen anyone bring this up. Also haven't read everything.
Did you notice Sally's hair? Used to be in kiddy styles, curly and frizzy. About three episodes back it started to become controlled and sleek like her mothers. I think her hair reflects on how she is growing up and trying to be like her mother. Soon she will tire and rebel and her hair will reflect it.
This also mimics Bitsy's controlled hair and the teacher's curly free hair. (the teacher annoys me, so I don't know her name, nor do I care).
I wonder when Don's hair will ditch the gel. I remember the end of the wet look. ;-)

@Don_jr. You stated in part, that "I want to say a few things about the Kennedy assassination. If you didn’t live through that time, you can’t understand what Kennedy was to us. He wasn’t a king, but a prince. He was that older brother we all wish we had. He was Lancelot, and he championed us and fought for us. Just the year before, we all really thought we were going to die when the Cuban Missle Crisis went nuclear. He saved us. Of course, the Kennedy image wasn’t real, just as the Don Draper image isn’t real, but that doesn’t matter."
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It's your last line about the Kennedy image not being real that is important. We now know of course, that this man was a drug addict, a sleazy womanizer of epic proportions, a mis-handler of the office of the presidency (he really did not know what he was doing and thank goodness for many of his astute advisors of the time who were REALLY the ones who "saved" us; by the way, he so totally screwed up during WWII as commander of PT 109 - he was in enemy waters where he should NOT have been and was told NOT to go. The idea he "saved" those on board is a joke because he was the one who managed to get many of them killed! Then he writes a book about it as though he was some sort of miracle worker. Give me a break!), This man was not great, and everybody did NOT wish he was their older brother! Far from it! That is what all the memorialization and idol worship created, a sense that everyone loved this man. No true! In fact, it has always been implied that Nixon won the election but for the fact that there were some peculiarities in Chicago (the "vote early and often" city) that got Kennedy into office. Sort of like Bush and those Florida chads. Let's stop re-writing history the way we WANT to believe it, instead of the way it REALLY was. We now know his image was indeed NOT real, so let's try and not make it real today. The man was a total sham.

In addition, let's stop memorializing and idolizing Kennedy as though he was some sort of god. He wasn't in spades. Had he not been assassinated in Dallas (something he certainly did not deserve, I'll grant you), most pundits of that day predicted he would have probably lost the upcoming election the following year (that's why he was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963, mending fences). The mood of the country was changing dramatically and Kennedy was NOT the golden boy he had been a year or two earlier. And, had he not been assassinated on that day, he would have faded from the public's collective mind, instead of being worshipped by so many for so long.

@Don_jr. You stated in part, that "I want to say a few things about the Kennedy assassination. If you didn’t live through that time, you can’t understand what Kennedy was to us. He wasn’t a king, but a prince. He was that older brother we all wish we had. He was Lancelot, and he championed us and fought for us. Just the year before, we all really thought we were going to die when the Cuban Missle Crisis went nuclear. He saved us. Of course, the Kennedy image wasn’t real, just as the Don Draper image isn’t real, but that doesn’t matter."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's your last line about the Kennedy image not being real that is important. We now know of course, that this man was a drug addict, a sleazy womanizer of epic proportions, a mis-handler of the office of the presidency (he really did not know what he was doing and thank goodness for many of his astute advisors of the time who were REALLY the ones who "saved" us; by the way, he so totally screwed up during WWII as commander of PT 109 - he was in enemy waters where he should NOT have been and was told NOT to go. The idea he "saved" those on board is a joke because he was the one who managed to get many of them killed! Then he writes a book about it as though he was some sort of miracle worker. Give me a break!), This man was not great, and everybody did NOT wish he was their older brother! Far from it! That is what all the memorialization and idol worship created, a sense that everyone loved this man. No true! In fact, it has always been implied that Nixon won the election but for the fact that there were some peculiarities in Chicago (the "vote early and often" city) that got Kennedy into office. Sort of like Bush and those Florida chads. Let's stop re-writing history the way we WANT to believe it, instead of the way it REALLY was. We now know his image was indeed NOT real, so let's try and not make it real today. The man was a total sham.

In addition, let's stop memorializing and idolizing Kennedy as though he was some sort of god. He wasn't in spades. Had he not been assassinated in Dallas (something he certainly did not deserve, I'll grant you), most pundits of that day predicted he would have probably lost the upcoming election the following year (that's why he was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963, mending fences). The mood of the country was changing dramatically and Kennedy was NOT the golden boy he had been a year or two earlier. And, had he not been assassinated on that day, he would have faded from the public's collective mind, instead of being worshipped by so many for so long.

Anyone notice how much Don Draper looks like a young Congressman John Boehner of Ohio?

Sorry for the double posting. This site is just simply screwy! It rarely works like most others that do!

I'm going to disagree on one point. I don't think Betty is doing what she is doing because she is fed up up with Don's lies. I think that now that she can see Don is not the "upper society" person she thought he was, she simply has no feeling's for him. She views him now as "from the other side of the tracks". She is the superficial debutante. Remember, the opposite of love isn't hate....it's indifference. And that's exactly what her expressions are showing me. So what does she do now ? She gravitates to the next person that she thinks has what she wants. I think it's possible in the next season (assuming they DO actually hook up) she'll learn what it feels like to be on the recieving end of something superficial. As many have pointed out, he can't possibly be in love at this stage so he must want something else. I know Don is a jerk (with all of his daliances, etc), but I think he actually does lover her. I also find these past two episodes very interesting in watching Don's experssions. He used to be the very secure, self confident type, but he is now showing fear, sadness, and a host of others in facing his demons. He has been a very different person of late. He actually held the baby !!

Funny when someone brought up tv reception..... and YES absolutely it was the worst then...no matter where you lived. Adjusting the tv antenna was something we did throughout every program! Oh, and in 1965, we were the first family on our block to get a color tv...and we lived in a very nice neighborhood...I remember most programs were not even in color yet! And I hated Bonanza but watched it because it was broadcast in color! Also-all the neighborhood kids would come to my house to watch Flintstones because it WAS in color...Doubtful the Drapers would have a color TV. I thought this episode was spot on. I love Don's character...love him and hate him. He tried to put together the perfect family because his own was so dysfunctional but does not have the tools to keep it together. I sympathize with Bette because of the philandering but she is a cold fish! She has no empathy. Was this why Don began the philandering? He is so ready to start anew when they go to Rome and when they get home, Bette completely shuts him out......So many unanswered questions!

Oh, and I'm surprised nobody thought of the verbal exchange still quoted about Kennedy's assassination:
Mary McGrory said "We'll never laugh again"
to which Pat Moynihan replied,
"No, we'll laugh again, we'll never be young again"

That was my take on the GROWNUPS

Funny when someone brought up tv reception..... and YES absolutely it was the worst then...no matter where you lived. Adjusting the tv antenna was something we did throughout every program! Oh, and in 1965, we were the first family on our block to get a color tv...and we lived in a very nice neighborhood...I remember most programs were not even in color yet! And I hated Bonanza but watched it because it was broadcast in color! Also-all the neighborhood kids would come to my house to watch Flintstones because it WAS in color...Doubtful the Drapers would have a color TV. I thought this episode was spot on. I love Don's character...love him and hate him. He tried to put together the perfect family because his own was so dysfunctional but does not have the tools to keep it together. I sympathize with Bette because of the philandering but she is a cold fish! She has no empathy. Was this why Don began the philandering? He is so ready to start anew when they go to Rome and when they get home, Bette completely shuts him out......So many unanswered questions!

Oh, and I'm surprised nobody thought of the verbal exchange still quoted about Kennedy's assassination:
Mary McGrory said "We'll never laugh again"
to which Pat Moynihan replied,
"No, we'll laugh again, we'll never be young again"

That was my take on the GROWNUPS

Funny when someone brought up tv reception..... and YES absolutely it was the worst then...no matter where you lived. Adjusting the tv antenna was something we did throughout every program! Oh, and in 1965, we were the first family on our block to get a color tv...and we lived in a very nice neighborhood...I remember most programs were not even in color yet! And I hated Bonanza but watched it because it was broadcast in color! Also-all the neighborhood kids would come to my house to watch Flintstones because it WAS in color...Doubtful the Drapers would have a color TV. I thought this episode was spot on. I love Don's character...love him and hate him. He tried to put together the perfect family because his own was so dysfunctional but does not have the tools to keep it together. I sympathize with Bette because of the philandering but she is a cold fish! She has no empathy. Was this why Don began the philandering? He is so ready to start anew when they go to Rome and when they get home, Bette completely shuts him out......So many unanswered questions!

Oh, and I'm surprised nobody thought of the verbal exchange still quoted about Kennedy's assassination:
Mary McGrory said "We'll never laugh again"
to which Pat Moynihan replied,
"No, we'll laugh again, we'll never be young again"

That was my take on the GROWNUPS

Funny when someone brought up tv reception..... and YES absolutely it was the worst then...no matter where you lived. Adjusting the tv antenna was something we did throughout every program! Oh, and in 1965, we were the first family on our block to get a color tv...and we lived in a very nice neighborhood...I remember most programs were not even in color yet! And I hated Bonanza but watched it because it was broadcast in color! Also-all the neighborhood kids would come to my house to watch Flintstones because it WAS in color...Doubtful the Drapers would have a color TV. I thought this episode was spot on. I love Don's character...love him and hate him. He tried to put together the perfect family because his own was so dysfunctional but does not have the tools to keep it together. I sympathize with Bette because of the philandering but she is a cold fish! She has no empathy. Was this why Don began the philandering? He is so ready to start anew when they go to Rome and when they get home, Bette completely shuts him out......So many unanswered questions!

Oh, and I'm surprised nobody thought of the verbal exchange still quoted about Kennedy's assassination:
Mary McGrory said "We'll never laugh again"
to which Pat Moynihan replied,
"No, we'll laugh again, we'll never be young again"

That was my take on the GROWNUPS

Funny when someone brought up tv reception..... and YES absolutely it was the worst then...no matter where you lived. Adjusting the tv antenna was something we did throughout every program! Oh, and in 1965, we were the first family on our block to get a color tv...and we lived in a very nice neighborhood...I remember most programs were not even in color yet! And I hated Bonanza but watched it because it was broadcast in color! Also-all the neighborhood kids would come to my house to watch Flintstones because it WAS in color...Doubtful the Drapers would have a color TV. I thought this episode was spot on. I love Don's character...love him and hate him. He tried to put together the perfect family because his own was so dysfunctional but does not have the tools to keep it together. I sympathize with Bette because of the philandering but she is a cold fish! She has no empathy. Was this why Don began the philandering? He is so ready to start anew when they go to Rome and when they get home, Bette completely shuts him out......So many unanswered questions!

Oh, and I'm surprised nobody thought of the verbal exchange still quoted about Kennedy's assassination:
Mary McGrory said "We'll never laugh again"
to which Pat Moynihan replied,
"No, we'll laugh again, we'll never be young again"

That was my take on the GROWNUPS

OMG so much to say! Thank God next week is the end of the season so I get back to my real 2009 life!! I need to get the whole house ready for my husband's business partners tonight and instead I am on this site!! I have never done this before. Soooo, since I have sooo much to say I am just going to comment now on the assassination.

It was absolutely a huge all encompassing event. I thought the scene at the office was very realistic. It was the first huge event where we were all connected through TV. The constant TV was excellent to show how we all were consumed with watching the events. This was definitely not a blip. People today ask each other "where were you when Kennedy was shot?".

My mother was a Kennedy idolizer and remained so until her death at 83 last March. I was a freshman in high school at a girls Catholic School. The nun was sobbing and the TV was on for the whole day and we were dismissed early.

At the time I probably loved Kennedy also, certainly loved Bobby and thought they were Camelot and do gooders. Since then I have grown up and agree with other posters that they were pretty much sleaze and not very competent, rather incompetent and made quite a mess of things--Vietnam. We teased my mother until her death--often sent her pictures of Marilyn Monroe with a pink X through her, we bought her the Jack Kennedy GI Joes, and mercilessly teased about his disgusting affairs to which she said they never happened until the day he died.

However--I think the assassination was traumatic just because it was the President of the US being gunned down on a street in Dallas for God's sake!! No matter who that President may have been. I think people felt panic and loss of control. Until LJ was truly in office I think there was fear about one's safety--what would happen next--would we be invaded--would life ever be the same. I think it took a long while for people to feel safe again. And actually, life never was the same as we entered the era of the rebellious 60s. I hated the Catholic girls school and made my parents let me transfer to the public school. I was definitely a part of the changed youth of the 60s--my poor parents.

Didn't like that Don told Betty to take a pill because she could not stop crying. Liked that she was consumed by the events of the moment.

Besides to Don, a trophy wife in this business doesn't seem a pre-requisite. If Betty leaves, it won't hurt Don's image (maybe in his mind.) But Roger left a "Lioness" for a female cub, a lowly secretary, and hasn't (so far) hurt his business. Cooper doesn't seemed bothered by it. And the Brits? They haven't said a word. Don may have married Bryn Mawr. It I know it bumped him up notches, culturally. But what else has Betty done for his career besides look good, patted her children occasionally, and bought trinkets (the boots and doll) now and then? I was Sally's age during this time and I saw far more affectionate, hands-on mothers than I see in Betty, even if it was the 60's. This is a Betty problem. Not a 60's problem.

Betty thinks she is a princess and acts accordingly. Until she perceived Don was not worthy any more, she was sitting high and mighty. Now, even though sympathetic, I don't think she understands WHY Dick did what he did. She'll never understand it. She is NOT empathetic. It seems she's puddle jumping from one high-esteemed person, Don, to another, Francis. Yeah, Don's got snakes in his closet. But after 11 years of marriage, she can't find something good to salvage from it...as her attorney advised? She's running into the arms of a man she hardly knows...because he looks good on paper?

We shall see if she actually goes through with it. But right now, she looks like she wants a WORTHY (of her) man to take care of her.

Well, anyway, back to Mad Men. I think the Kennedy eulogizing has run its seemingly eternal course here, at least I hope so.

As much as I like the series, S3 began turning Mad Men into a soap opera, something it managed to avoid in S's1 and 2. And why is there so much about the Draper's? You would think they are the couple around which everything else revolves. Why not just start calling it "The Draper Hour." I am weary of Don and Betty and their never-ending marital strife and their boring, token children, who do absolutely nothing to move the plot along. Let's see more of Pete's struggles and his relationship with Trudy. Not a whole show full of it but something! And what about Joan? And Sal? Is Sal really gone forever? I have a feeling he is. And why does Bert Cooper appear only fleetingly? Will he ever retire? Is he thinking of it? And was that Peggy's roommate at the beginning of E12 at the elevators? What is her story? And Roger and his wife? What about them? I have a feeling that marriage was on the rocks before it began! And could they please get rid of those annoying Brits! They ruined season three (or helped to). They are not appealing, they muddied up the plot lines, etc.

I really wish Wiener and staff (who seem to be focused on Don and Betty and their whiny children) would give us what they did in S's1&2. A little more variety and less of "One Man's Family."

Hannah - I did not read your post and I said almost the same thing....hope I didn't step on your toes.

maximum_girl: Thanks for presenting both sides of the Kennedy's and how your Mom believed what she believed to the end of her days. I think people do indeed believe what they want and no amount of proof to the contrary will get them to see the light. All the Kennedy eulogizing is because he was assassinated in Dallas 46 years ago. If he hadn't been, he would have faded from the collective mind of the Nation. The Kennedy's are nothing more than a bunch who got where they did through Joe's philandering and money, and more philandering and more money. They aren't special, in my opinion. Like you, I too once thought they were when I was a kid, but I quickly changed my mind the more I read, listened, read, researched, and listened.

@Don_jr...Thank you for your insightful post. You said a lot of what I experienced on 11/22-25/63. The fact that the President of the USA was killed was a total shock. Then the double shock of seeing Oswald also assassinated - beyond comprehension. I don't care what anyone's politics are/were at the time, those two acts impacted everyone.

As I said in my previous post and someone else also mentioned, there was a loss of innocence afterward. We were all changed in some way or another. I'm old enough to remember when FDR died. It was not a shock, but it also affected so many people. I remember my mother crying and felt sad for her. On 11-22-63 I finally understood what she was feeling, along with some anger because someone had the audacity to kill my country's President.

This episode reflected so well what many people were doing: glued to TV or radios, waiting for more news and answers. It was, IMHO, not overdone, but very realistic. Yes, life went on, people went to their jobs, mothers changed babies, people died, people were married, but with a gray cloud of sadness hanging over them. Yes, we "got over it" in time, but we shall never forget.

It was good to see Don reaching out to Bobby and holding him on his lap with Sally sitting at his feet after his first impression was to turn off the TV. Life will go on with the Drapers, but it will surely be different.

Not at all, MADtini.....I thought you were just agreeing with me !!!

Betty used to be one of my favorite characters (along with Don and Joan), but now that I see her as she really is (something I probably should have realized before now), she's way down on my list with Peggy, Pete, and Duck.

Are people really surprised that Betty feels she doesn't love Don anymore? He hasn't really given her a reason to love him. The Kennedy assassination and everyone's reactions to it was the focus of the episode. Betty's reaction wans't just about the assassination, it was also a build up of what she has gone through lately. Don's lies, the Henry situation, and her father's recent death it all just built up and exploded. Then you see Don shrug it off with "it'll be alright". Don is suddenly forced to see that his constant neglect of Betty has taken it's toll. She feels she doesn't love him anymore and you really can't blame her. Suddenly Don is faced with the reality that he might loose everything he took for granted. The Henry situation is similar to that of Suzanne. All of a sudden Henry wants to marry her? Come on now. She may be a good trophy wife for him but her 3 kids would be baggage. But he is an outlet for Betty when Don hasn't been receptive. I don't feel that the Drapers are done though. Don doesn't strike me as the type to give up so easily on what he has worked so hard for. He loves his family and now is the time for him to show it.

rozsie: I keep trying to forget the Kennedy saga, except that every year the Boomers (of which I am one) like to try and recapture their lost forever youth and wallow in "their self-proclaimed tragedy" of the Kennedy assassination. This idea we will never forget and will always feel sadness over Kennedy is nonsense. Let it go, people. It is lost forever in the mists of time. I don't go around hanging my head when November 22 rolls around (and neither does anyone else, I suspect unless they have just watched one of the endless moldy news reel footage tapes or one of those laughable documentaries on the tube that present conspiracy theories galore). What nonsense! And the idea everyone went on with life but under some dark cloud is ridiculous. The next week my family (and millions like them) celebrated Thanksgiving and we enjoyed it. We did not sit around the table picking at our food and crying. My mother stuffed the turkey and was not sobbing as she did it. In fact, I remember I was with her at the grocery store laughing about something or other with the clerk and a couple of other people. Many here like to remember what they like to remember and write their own history of events that happened decades ago. Everyone was NOT walking around like a bunch of zombies for days and weeks afterward, no more than they were after 9/11 occurred. I think for a few days people may have acted a bit more respectful of others, but it was short-lived. It's a proven fact that human beings tend to remember things more dramatically than they actually were and that they "re-write" what they choose.

I notice the Mad Men characters still had time to contemplate an affair (Betty and Henry) right after the assassination of JFK. Also, a wedding took place on the show and everyone didn't look like they were ready to fling themselves out a window. Pete still had time to think about his career. Roger still had the urge to call up Joan, who I don't think was too broken up about JFK's demise.

Let's get off this imagined kick of having everyone on the planet walking around like zombies for weeks, months, and years after JFK's assassination. They weren't! This includes Jackie who married Aristotle Onassis five years later, and whom she had been dallying with prior to her husband's demise. Come on, life goes on and with relish. It has to. Enough with the sack cloth and ashes already!

"Also don't underestimate Betty's ability to leave the kids along with Don. It may just occur to her that forcing Don to take the kids in a divorce will hinder him professionally. Don may not want the kids...."

One thing we've seen is that, for the times and considering his background, Don really does love his kids. He may not be as hands-on as some of today's dads, but not bad. It won't inder him professionally at all; he may even get brownie points or sympathy, so to speak, for being in the forefront as a single father. After all, two of the kids are in school and they do have the indispensible Carla to assist.

On the other hand if Betty leaves him with the kids he may chuck Sterling Cooper and take the kids to California, introduce them to Anna, and take up living at the beach and restoring old cars for a living.

Hello Maddicts:

First @ahuberman - Duck romantic? Puh-lease! He's just an old horndog pulling the plug so he can get some. He doesn't care about Peggy at all. She's too socially stunted to realize it.

@jacklq- good observation regarding the framed scenes!

@cat - also a good observation regarding Sally comforting her mother when she herself received no comfort when Grandpa Gene died.

@Sophieliecious - Yes, the kids acted more grown-up than some of the Grown-ups in an episode of Grown-ups.

@DisplayDiva - I too noticed the change in Sally's hair. I just love that little actress. She is a gem.

@zuzupetals - Great quote and observation.

@greg and @shadowball245 regarding temperatures: The episode began with the heater on the fritz in the office, then later the a/c. Too cold, too hot. Betty is always acting too cold (howling wind) but did you notice that Henry's breath was visible after he got out of the car after kissing Betty? He's going to be the coldest of them all. Yes, I do believe he is a predator after his prey. Betty is too self-centered to notice.

I thought this episode was very well-done, especially in evoking the feelings of the people in groups (the office, the wedding reception). It was all so sad and awkward. I remember as a kid feeling the tension in the air with the various news stories in the '60's in my family.

Loved Roger's character in this episode. And I didn't think Joan was unsympathetic. She was being very realistic and "grown-up".

I, too, was somewhat disappointed in this episode, but not for its treatment of the assassination. With all the build-up from a lot of fans on this Board, MW couldn’t just ignore it, so we had to expect something dramatic. My disappointment was more in the characters various reactions to the situation.

I was most disappointed in Betty’s freak out, and her running into Henry Francis’ arms. It just did not synch with her background and past expressions of disapproval for JFK’s politics. That is not to say that she would not be saddened by his death, any normal person would be. Her reaction, I believe, was outsized based on her demographic and status. She just flipped out, without any emotional or political attachment to JFK or the Democratic party. It really just didn’t make sense. I understand that there is supposed to be some parallel between Don and Betty and the Kennedys. In Season 1, Betty projected her hatred for Helen Bishop onto John Kennedy, saying how much she couldn’t stand him. In Season 2, Betty was watching Jackie give a televised tour of the White House on Valentine’s Day 1962, but never said anything expressing approval. In fact, she had been acting true to her Republican roots when she hosted a political fundraiser for Nelson Rockefeller, and acting as though she would vote for Rocky against Kennedy provided that Rocky won the nomination, which had not even begun as of 11/63. There has been no professed love for either Jackie or the President by Betty, so I don’t see there being any basis for an emotional freakout on her part.

Also, Don told Betty on the dance floor that everything would be OK, she expressed skepticism or disbelief to him, and he kissed her. She later claims she “didn’t feel anything.” She states her exasperation to Henry Francis in the Lincoln, he tells her the same thing Don did but in arguably more cold, political terms. Yet she accepted Henry’s explanation, then soaks up his ridiculous rationalization that he wants to marry her. What a crock! This guy is probably a philanderer on a scale that would put Don to shame. (Recall that the Junior League president KNEW that Henry Francis was a womanizer and set Betty as bait in a trap to do their conservationist dirty work!) But Betty doesn’t see through this ruse. Betty fails to ask any questions of Henry, just like she never asked questions of Don. History is doomed to repeat itself, through the tragedy of her kids’ upbringing. I now know that Betty has lost the “grown up” countenance she held in the last episode and is acting like a spoiled brat as much as Jane and Margaret. (Where is Mona to slap Betty around when we need it?)

Don is looking more and more like a deer in the headlights of every approaching downturn. His apolitical approach to national events has been consistent throughout the series and is, I believe, true to his character. He votes Republican because that is in his best interests as a man of means, and because that is how everyone else around him in his professional life votes as well. It helps him get ahead. But there is no great ideological root that makes him vote that way. He doesn’t want to be present for the Rockefeller political fundraiser. He goes along with the Nixon ads because that is in the firm’s, and ultimately his, best interests. He has no real attachment to Kennedy, his image or his politics, and therefore is somewhat detached from the assassination. Kind of like Ferris Bueller quoting John Lennon, "I don't believe in -isms, I just believe in me."

Don appears a little overwhelmed when Ruby assassinates Oswald, like even he is at a loss for words, and he tells Sally to go to her room. When Betty tells him she doesn’t love him anymore, he looks like he has been mortally wounded.

Hard to know where this will go.

Amazing episode last night. Here's my blog with the closing song video.
http://www.elisesramblings.blogspot.com/2009/11/mad-men-wrap-up.html

@Elise - your comments on the temperature were so much better than mine. Well said.

Did anyone find it odd that Henry Francis showed up at both the Derby party thrown by Roger Sterling and RS's daughter's wedding? Is he a personal friend of Sterling's? Or, is Sterling using him to get to Don through Betty? I found it odd when he approached Betty at the Derby party and put his hand on her very pregnant midsection. I thought it was creepy but didn't think any more about it...until suddenly he and Betty had a minor thing going on. The next thing you know, he is at the wedding reception with his daughter. Are we sure Roger hasn't engaged Henry to flirt with betty) and beyond, to get back at Don with whom he hasn't exactly been on great terms lately.
There is a connection here someplace.

WOW!! I love reading everyone’s thoughts, yet again, some kooky ones, but everyone has their side and it’s interesting! I still think that Betty is showing more emotion to the kids. She had that moment with Sally being a mother and comforting her (definitely the kids were the “grown ups”). Sally catches on to a lot of unspoken stuff! See how she watches her parents; even Bobby noticed that last moment, where their parents did not kiss, the usual peck. I agree, Don truly loves Betty, but he never has experienced, or had a positive role model of a productive relationship, so how is he supposed to know what to do? I think Betty is not a primpy princess, I think she is realizing that everything has changed, and the assassination amplifies what she is feeling. Her husband has constantly pushed her away despite trying to be there for him. She has constantly asked him to open up to her, but he just goes to bed with another woman instead, or tells her to take a pill. She has fallen out of love because he pushed her away. She is definitely becoming the strong one, like what someone said before. Don’s prepared her for being independent. People complain that there isn’t enough of the office and advertising anymore. I think what this show is really about is the women of advertising and behind the men of advertising and how the times affect them. Before the women weren’t really taken seriously. Now Peggy’s acting like a guy with her affairs, Betty is becoming the strong one, etc.
I think the assassination meant different things to different people, to some it was earth shattering, to others it wasn’t. It just depends, I wasn’t born yet.  But my parents, both remember exactly where they were and how that day affected them. But they also understand, the president wasn’t perfect either.
There are so many things to talk about, but I can’t remember them all! I love all of your posts, they are so insightful and some are just fun to read!!
Betty is not a cold shrew! She’s just been treated like crap for too long!!
Pete is so whiny! Isn’t it funny how Trudy had to ask him if he “lost his temper”? She’s his mommy. 
Peggy and Duck, eewww..what was his nickname for her?
Can’t wait until next week!! I can’t handle anymore between football and this show!!

eclar: Personally, I don't find it "kooky" that Roger is out to get back at Don and he may be using Henry Francis to do his dirty work. Again, is Francis a personal friend of Roger's? He must be because he showed up at both the Derby party (where he was creepy as can be) and again at the wedding of Roger's daughter. I think it is more than coincidence. I think it was Francis who called the Draper residence and hung up two episodes ago. Not Suzanne. She is not the fly in the ointment. Never was. Henry Francis is the fly. And he was engaged by Roger Sterling to bring down Don through Betty. Wait and see. It will happen in Season 4.

I am wondering why Joan would not be invited to Margaret's wedding!?

I agree with fivemilestomidnight that Roger could certainly be behind HF's wooing of Betty. But what clued him in to the fact that HF could actually melt the ice princess?

I will mourn when this season ends.

@ginger: She is no longer at Sterling Cooper and thus, what interest would she have? It's not like she has to go to appease the boss. No one at SC is her boss any longer!

@CoyoteQT: I think Roger has a sixth-sense (like everyone does, really) and he has picked up on the fact that Betty is not happy. Remember that time he was at the house for dinner in Season1? He came on to her and she rejected him. Also, he has sarcastically called her Princess Grace and treated her smugly. He needed to use someone like Francis who has power (being a politico) and was suave and sophisticated and older than Betty. The guy has a modicum of attractiveness or at least style. Let's face it, he couldn't use his gardner (if he has one) to woo Grace Kelly! Roger is aiming to get back at Don on many levels. Both Don and Roger are cut from the same cloth, although I think Roger is much more vindictive and much more clever!

Strange, my avatar appears on one or two other threads, but so far, not here. This site is the most screwed up on the Web. It's slow as molasses, half the time doesn't work at all, and even with the refresh button I have to wait 3-5 minutes to see if my post went through. Whomever manages this site is not doing their job. It really is awful in terms of technical aspects.

Ok, here is the avatar. Finally! But the site is still slow as can be and not always working. I wonder if that is why there have not been as many comments today.

Another brilliant episode.
The Kennedy assassination was forever imprinted on those of us who remember that time in history.
It was defintely the loss of innocence for America. Seeing Cronkite report on it with tears in his eyes was gut wrenching.
John Hamm is so adept at imbuing Don Draper with the right touch of empathy that it's difficult, sometimes, to realize he's just an actor.
I have no problem with MM's depiction / retelling of Kennedy, as it is one event that I don't think I, or most, will ever forget.

Nice post DonJR...my mother told me that she skipped school with her brother to go wave at the Kennedy motorcade in San Antonio the day before.

"Joan made an interesting point, people still getting sick, car accidents still happening, babies being born, etc... "

I watched V on SyFy after MM and one of the characters went to work at a hospital OR and said the exact same thing after the alien ship appeared.

Some here have been hard on Betty all along for being cold and even a bimbo. Now people are upset by her leaving Don only to run off with Henry. The role of Betty Draper is complicated and I suspect, as an actress, January Jones’ not being completely up to it may be part of the problem.

But I have a different take on Betty at this point. First, I think she’s the MM character who’s grown the most during this series. True, even in her most developed stage, she’s seldom capable of operating independent of her emotional reactions to events happening to and around her. But gradually she’s learning how to survive and avoid being victimized by the men who’ve dominated her life, her father and especially Don, who to her way of thinking is a father surrogate.

In the “Grown Ups” episode, people noted that she announces to Don she no longer loves him after Henry asks her to marry him. But I think Betty has already made up her mind about Don before running off to meet Henry, so it isn’t the marriage proposal that gives her the courage to confront her husband. She’s no more convinced by Henry’s advice about how “everything will be fine ” than she was when Don used that line at Margaret’s wedding. She didn’t exactly jump at Henry’s offer to marry her either, though she did seem to have a momentary setback and go all gooey when “daddy” offered to take her to the movies.

But Henry will be no surrogate for Don if and when Betty takes up with him. She’s been down that road and now knows where the pot holes are. Some poster are worried that Henry will just be another man who does her in. But I suspect Betty is just about prepared to start doing a little undoing herself

I loved that Roger had to put his childbride to bed. I see him leaving her soon.Mona was too good for him anyway, just wait until the '64's come in and Mrs. Jane Sterling will get the heave-ho.
Not feeling a thing for Dick/Don. He made it all happen.

I have the feeling the way Roger and Henry were connected was through their daughters. If Henry's daughter finds out Daddy's having an affair with Betty, she may tell Margaret. Who may tell Daddy. Then it's a question - one-upmanship or male bonding. Which will Roger do?

Actually I think the Henry affair will be aborted in the next episode, perhaps by a Junior Leaguer letting her know she was lucky not to hook up with Henry. She knew another woman who had, it destroyed her marriage and Henry would have nothing to do with her.

What's funny is Betty seems ready to jump to Henry. She knew Don for months before they were married. Henry? You can count their meetings on one hand, not counting letters. By the way, how many notes were there? That might be interesting if Don finds them, innocuous as they may be. A romantic like Betty would not have destroyed Henry's notes.

Re: Betty saying she doesn't love Don. More than one guy I know would say, "Okay, and what's that got to do with the price of eggs in China?" There are countless marriages without much more in common than they've known each other seemingly forever and it's not worth the energy or money to get divorced. They don't hate each other, they're the other's best opposite-sex friends and they don't see any better alternatives.

Elise: Very interesting and original take on ep.12. I have bookmarked your blog.

Our teacher, Miss Gannon, was all worked up about Kennedy getting himself shot. She just kept sobbing and breaking down in fits of hysterical hand-wringing and bawling. We kids all thought she lost control of her bodily functions and messed her undies. She made each kid stand and recite what a tragedy it was, how terrible it made us feel, blah blah blah. We all played her game, trying to out-do one another with feigned "anguish" and kvetching. Then it was Tamar Singer's turn. Tammy stood and said, "My Mom says that Kindy got what he had coming to him." Stunned, Miss Gannon blubbered, "Why, oh why could your Mon say such a thing, Tamar?" Calmly, Tam replied, "Because Kindy was a poopy man, Miss G. Mom says his Mom is lace-curtain Irish but his Daddy is a shanty Irish [EXPLETIVE DELETED]." We all tried to keep from laughing, but most of us couldn't do it. Atta way to go, Mrs. Singer.

I don't go around hanging my head when November 22 rolls around (and neither does anyone else, I suspect unless they have just watched one of the endless moldy news reel footage tapes or one of those laughable documentaries on the tube that present conspiracy theories galore.

******AGREED. And by the same token it's time to STOP reciting the names of each victim of SEPTEMBER 11th every anniversary.

@fivemiles nice avatar. the reason there are less comments tonight is not the fault of the site. it is slow that is true. I believe we are having a civil war, since it is apparent that a contingent of regulars has seceded from this forum.
@ritt1 I agree with you on the daughters of Sterling and Francis being a possible connection. possibly they met at finishing school. I do not believe that the idea of Henry Francis being planted as a homewrecker by Roger is feasible FiveMiles suggested.

Those of us old enough actually to remember the Kennedy shooting will never be swept up in the hysteria about Kennedy's "positive qualities." As one co-worker commented today, "You'd have to be a real pus-head to buy that crap about such a cheesy phony." The American People demonstrated their collective sense of humor almost immediately. I remember some jokes which circulated even before the funeral -- such as the one about Lady Bird Johnson lowering the convertible top -- and they always got a good-natured laugh.

Who are Harry and Jen? seated at the Draper Table at the wedding? Have we seen them before?

"stocky"--if you varied the writing styles of your sock puppets, your lies would be less boring to read.

However--there's nothing you can do to make people believe you.

Who are Harry and Jen ? Sat at the Draper table at the wedding. Have we seen them before?

WOW:

What Fabulous Storytelling! The Writing, the Set Production, Production Design, Acting, Dialogue,Plot Structure, as many others have noted, was so Beautifully Crafted. Hats-off to all involved!!! and CHEERS TOO!

THIS is why we are Maddicts and "Maddicted." This series is Superlative on ALL Levels; how Rare and Wonderful! I so thought that the TV News footage was Brilliantly placed. It transported us THERE. It was almost like a character in this epi. THAT is what people did for 3 days: Stay glued to their sets. Everyone did. It was Riveting. I adored seeing Conkrite (sp?), and seeing the hard-boiled pro-newsman wipe away a few tears beneath his glasses. Remarkable. I was age 1 when this Tragedy occurred and certainly never cried when studying the event in School. Last night, I wept several times at the Import and Magnitude of what our Mighty Country Lost that Fateful day. . .

-bappy53: YOU need to post on RACY's JFK's thread. Your recollections are Important. It wd totally be a Win-Win. TA!

-Trotskyaire and adamX6000: YES! "Take Five" nailed the unfortunate fact that the Aquanet TV commercial wd be too similar to the motorcade and its horrible aftermath. How ambitious and canny of Peggy to be right there w/ her figurative baby on Monday, changing the campaign so that it wd not horrify/alienate the viewing public. CLEVER on both counts!

I loved hearing passed-out Jane snoring; how inelegant!

At the wedding reception-supper, did anyone else notice that when the camera panned back to a medium long-shot of the table where Don and Betty were feasting along w/ Ken and his date and Harry and his wife, there were 2 empty place settings. That is where Pete and Trudy wd have been seated! VERY Meticulous Continuity!

-jacklq: Excellent call on the double framing of that last heartwrenching scene. The first doorway looks into the warm and familial kitchen, and the one beyond leads out into the cold, harsh world. It was tragic how they did not even speak, much less say goodbye. . .

-tamtam: I Love what you said about Jane's attire to the wedding. Yes, it cd have been Navy lace. Today, Giorgio Armani employs a very dark shade of Navy called "Midnight." APROPOS: Greg: Jane is a very rich and chic New Yorker. She wd only wear the the latest fashion and the Best to reveal her Status. Her dress was quite possibly even COUTURE ( i.e., where very few are made /and they're sewn to order) and probably designed by Givenchy, Dior, or Jackie's Fav: Oleg Cassini. The sheath dress was technically NOT black. It was ecru silk w/ an overlay of black or Navy Chantilly (or Allencon) lace.

It is very edgy and popular to wear black to weddings today, especially in the Northeast. In the South, done, but notsomuch. I believe that it was not common in the early Sixties to wear black or black lace to someone's nuptials, but it was surely done by the fashion conscious. Additionally, I think it was more Brilliant Writing to insert a subtle visual slight to Margaret c/o Jane' attire. Fastidious observation GREG DARLING!

-miss59: I too, wondered what kind of prescription Tranquilizers Betty, then Don took. Valium, Phenobarbital, Seconal, Milltown??? Anyone?

-Myriad: Interesting conjecture about a hypothetical marriage between Joan and Roger. After Jane, 'twould be a welcome relief. I feel that it is highly unlikely!?

-Don_Jr: YOU are a very Talented Writer. I LOVE how you acknowledge the 5 TRUE Grown-Ups of this epi. And you provided a terrific description/synopsis of Camelot and its Cultural and Historical Relevance. The Fairy-Tale died that painful day too. So Eloquent. Cheers! And Thanx!

-noreality: YES! Jon Hamm is Brilliant as Don Draper. I cannot Imagine a more Superb casting of our Protagonist!

MAD-MAD LOVE TO ALL!
( Even to you Inflammatory and Ludicrous Posters that Feebly Attempt and FAIL to Taint our Affection for this Important Show. No, no need to name Names; You Know Who You Are. SAD!)

Goldbug -
Harry Crane and his wife Jennifer. 'Nuff said.

I was a sophomore at Fairfax High School in Virginia, in Geometry class when the first announcement came over the loudspeaker that Kennedy had been shot. I was in World History (I think) when the announcement of his death came. We got sent home early (but not very) that day.

Missed the Oswald assassination but caught John Jr saluting Daddy. Possibly the most recognizable photo of the entire funeral.

We lived outside Washington DC and didn't go back to school for a few days. I suspect we went back on Tuesday after JFK was buried, Kids talked but life went on. No Thanksgiving celebrations were cancelled as far as I remember. Neither of my parents seemed very upset (to me) but both of them remembered FDR's death announcement.

Much of what people regard as JFK's legacy is because LBJ picked up the baton on several issues, including the Civil Rights Act. It was all, "Do it for the late president."

Had JFK run for office again in '64, he might have had trouble winning and be no better remembered than Carter is. As it was, Eisenhower looks far better in retrospect as a President than Kennedy does (for things accomplished). I remember my grandmother kept a photo of Kennedy trimmed in black ribbon in her living room until the day she died.

@MADtini: It's yet to be seen whether Betty rushes into the arms of Henry. She might. She also might use Henry to get what she needs for a divorce, proof of adultery. Betty's problem with Don is that she doesn't love him. We can debate the reasons she doesn't love him, but for her the marriage she thought she was in is over. Not much can be done to change the fact that she doesn't love him. As someone else stated, the opposite of love isn't hate it's indifference. Betty is just indifferent to Don at this point. Maybe he could have fixed this back in season one when he sent her to the shrink if he had given her any real intimacy and stopped cheating on her. But he's spent too many nights away and Don has forced her to become self reliant. She's had to rely on herself for comfort for so long she simply doesn't need him for that any more.

@dondraperesq: Betty's reaction verbally twice was: "what is going on" this is a reflection of the shock of the assassinations of both Kennedy and Oswald, but for Betty an expression of her shock at her recently learned reality with Don. The assassination was just a catalyst for Betty to accept that her world is nothing like what she assumed it was.

@eclar: I'm glad someone else understands that Betty isn't cold, she simply reacts like any person would who has been treated that way. I wonder how others would see her if she was warm and caring and doted on Don in spite of his treatment of her. If she did we'd all call her a twit.

@Fivemiles: Roger could be using Henry to get to Don but I think its more about Roger's country-club connectedness name-dropping. Henry was invited to Derby Day as a political connection. Same with Margaret's wedding. I also got the impression that Margaret and Henry's daughter are friends. THAT connection may be what catches Betty/Henry up.

@moltomad: My personal jury is still out on JJ's acting skills. Sometimes I'm convinced she plays Betty just right. Betty's upbringing and Bryn Mawr background would produce a person intent on hiding their emotions, so JJ's portrayal of Betty's stoicism in certain situations seems spot on. There's also the constant betrayal. As a woman who suspected betrayal for years only to have it confirmed beyond her wildest imagination, Betty has put a lot of energy into hiding her true feelings--until now. I think we'll have definitive proof of JJ's acting skills in season 4 when I expect Betty to cut loose with emotion. Promise me you'll be here next season so we can hash it out.

Whew - finally got through the comments. Still took a while even without several of the regulars, who I noticed were not here. I believe they bailed in favor of a troll free environment.

@Greg: I've always understood it to be inappropriate to wear black to a wedding. If I were the bride I'd be offended, despite the circumstances (Kennedy assassination). Dress properly or stay home IMO.

@DonJr: Great post. I'm new here too and end up doing more reading than commenting myself.

@Fivemilesto...: Regarding the Roger/Henry connection - I thought when Betty met Henry it was near the rest rooms inside the country club where there were multiple functions going on. Remember that was when Don met Connie too? I don't recall seeing Henry at Roger's party and assumed he was attending another one at the club. Am I mistaken?? If not, maybe Henry was at the same party as Connie and they are connected somehow. Of course, now I have to go back and wach that episode to see for sure.

Fellow Maddicts: Does anyone remember seeing Henry at Roger's party on Derby Day?

By DisplayDiva on November 2, 2009 1:42 PM

My first time here- But I haven't seen anyone bring this up. Also haven't read everything.
Did you notice Sally's hair? Used to be in kiddy styles, curly and frizzy. About three episodes back it started to become controlled and sleek like her mothers. I think her hair reflects on how she is growing up and trying to be like her mother. Soon she will tire and rebel and her hair will reflect it.
This also mimics Bitsy's controlled hair and the teacher's curly free hair. (the teacher annoys me, so I don't know her name, nor do I care).
I wonder when Don's hair will ditch the gel. I remember the end of the wet look. ;-)
****************************************************************

I've been thinking about the hair, too. Peggy's, Betty's - most everyone I knew in the 60's had the ratted up high on top...even higher than Joan's - and short in the back. Joan has the closest to what I am used to. The shape was a rounded upside down triangle. If it was longer enough to flip up, it still was ratted on top to give height. The SC secretaries have it, I think.

If people are mentioning where they were when Kennedy was shot, I had left elementary school (I was Sally's age) to walk to piano lessons. My piano teacher's home was between the elementary school and the high school where my mother was a GOVERNMENT teacher. When I walked to her school (can you imagine that I just left school and walked around town - about a mile), I got to her classroom and I was told about the tragedy. Then my mother and I went to our church to pray as they opened their doors to people.

A friend of mine told me her Senior year high school homecoming dance was cancelled because of the the assassination.

@LindaMaddict: Derby Day, Roger introduced Henry Francis to the Drapers at his party AFTER the creepy hand/baby-belly near-the-bathroom encounter with Betty.

thistimegetitright, I remember my mother going with us trick or treating. I was in either kindergarten or first grade. So they got it right this time.

This meme of Roger conspiring with Francis (to put it politely) to mess up the Draper marriage is just retarded. Furthermore, it completely insults Betty's and Don's ability to do that themselves and doesn't give credit to the great lengths they've went through to do just that.
Not everything is a conspiracy...even on TV. Sure, Madmen has a bit of a soap opera feel but it isn't a day time soap.. I'd be more than happy to bet 9 million trillion zillion dollars on it odds of infinity to 1...or even 10xinfinity to 1.

bipolarbear:

You're right, Don does have to make some decisions regarding the money. However, he doesn't seem to be taking her seriously. I would if I were him. She's different now than when she confronted him about Bobbie Barrett last year. Saying I kiss you but I don't feel anything is pretty powerful stuff. This is more depth than Betty usually operates in, I'd notice that as a red flag that this is real.

I guess the money all hinges on the 500k. I think I'm the only one who doesn't think the money in the drawer is the 500k, and instead it's sitting in a bank somewhere. The sale of SC was legit, so it may have been sent to an account or in stocks or whatever. They didn't just give him a bag of money out the back of a van. Of course he could have cashed a check and withdrawn it all, but I don't know. Either way, first thing is to move that chunk of money if indeed it's not the drawer money.

So if the 500k is safe somewhere, he's better off just leaving the drawer money where it is and just letting her have it. If he takes it she'll notice and get pretty pissed. He really shouldn't mess with her, just cut his losses and start setting up the disaster plan of pulling his usual disappearing act if that's where she pushes him.

On a side note, I'm still waiting for a scene where Don pickes up the phone saying this is Dick Whittman, Betty knows. At some point he's got to tell Anna to watch out.

Regardless of your own personal politics, at the time, JFK (Camelot) stood for hope, youth, faith in the future, and the amazing strength of the USA. His untimely and violent death pulled the rug out beneath the core of American ideals. Nothing will ever be the same again - Viet Nam, rebellion, widespread drug use, the anti-establishment. women's liberation, civil rights, and the peace movements were still in the future. These were all unknowns in the world of MadMen. Not only are the characters having to be grown-Up. It appears that America was now growing up and facing the realities of the times.

That said, I admire Joan (I wrote what I thought to be a plausable back-story for her a few eps back), and I have also learned to appreciate Betty with every passing storyline. This thread has dissected her from every conceivable angle over this last season, so I won't reiterate, but I think it is clear that considering the time, she is simply a product of her backround and her upbringing. The Feminine Mystique (how can someone have it "all" and still be so unhappy) is beginning to reveal itself. Betty will grow so much in Season 4.

@Greg: I don't think there's 500k in that drawer either. There is a bundle of cash in there though. And, you're right. Don underestimates Betty at his own peril. You know what they say about a woman scorned! And, honestly, could a woman be more scorned than Betty is?????? Maybe its the woman in me, but I don't think Betty is about to take up with Henry--at least not really. She might lead Henry on to see if/what/how much she can get from him but at this point she is once bitten twice shy. And she's starting to calculate.

Remember last episode before she left for her Dad's she deliberately set Don up to see if he'd lie to her--and he did. She said she only had $40, did he have any cash. He told her there should be $200 in her checking account. I'll bet my bottom dollar Betty knew just exactly how much cash was in that drawer when she asked that question.

I don't feel sorry for Don--yet. Before this is over, we're all gonna feel sorry for Don!

hey Lily O change the clock please.

I wonder when Betty will realize that she's got all the power now. Even without knowing about every affair Don's had, she knows enough to put him in jail and take the kids and everything else. If she copied the key, she certainly could have copied the documents and dog tags. We really don't know how things have been between them since Halloween. When Betty woke up hearing the baby cry, she assumed Don was gone, not with the baby. Doesn't seem as if there really was any repairing going on in this marriage - just two people trying to get through each day. The assassination was obviously the catalyst that stirred Betty into action. I can't wait until Sunday, but I'm sure the season finale will be torturous, knowing we have so long until season 4.

@bipolarbear: Thank you! I just watched it and smacked myself on the head wondering how I forgot all of that. I noticed too that Roger called him "Hank" but still can't be sure if they're buddies or if Roger was just being funny...

@ Greg: You are not alone in thinking the 500K is not in the drawer, and I'm not sure why anyone would think it is. Even in $100 denominations there would have to be 100 packs of 50 bills each. And certainly Betty would have further questioned Don had she found that sum of money! Not sure if it was you or someone else that mentioned it, but I agree that it's in an Executive Account.

@bipolarbear: I agree - Don is going to get it from Betty with both barrels. The times, they are a-changing!

One more thing, the Peggy and Duck thing (ditto on thinking"eeeww" like many others btw) may be discovered by Pete. Remember Duck phoned Pete at the office saying he was Uncle Herman - and pete got all upset thinking something was wrong with Aunt Pearl LOL - and now Harry knows Peggy's nooner was with a Mr. Herman. And of course, Herman is Duck's real name. That fling needs to end anyway!!

Harry is the TV guy at SC and Jennifer is his wife.
This was an awesome episode, but I was surprised/disappointed that Betty left Don at this point. If she knew about his affair with Suzanne, after his seemingly heartfelt letter and plea to her to take him back at the end of last season, I could see it. But because he didn't tell her about his childhood and his past?? She knew all along that he was being mysterious about that. Honestly, what does it matter after all their years of marriage? That was hardly the "lie so big" as to justify her concluding she no longer loves him, in my opinion.

What do we know about Peggy's father? She must have daddy issues too to be seeing Duck.

And what is the background story on Joan? There is still so much more to explore with these characters.

I think I'm going into premature withdrawal....

To switch gears entirely:

Some dear poster said above that Henry is a philanderer and just wants to have a fling w/ pretty Betty and then cast her aside. I have a completely different overview of their connection and potential Relationship.

Henry is in Public Life. I surmise he is extremely Wealthy. He is divorced or a widower (I cannot recollect!). He (p'raps Irrationally so?!) is in LOVE w/ Betty. She has rocked his World just by acknowledging him and letting him gently carress her distended pregnant belly (at first meeting). He is GAGA about her. There is a Romantic Phenomenon called "Love at First Sight:" and he's got-it BAD (; to his Ruin?) He REALLY wants to BE w/ her. Delusional or not, he is Ready and Willing to to Anything (Sacrifice Career and Social Face) to HAVE her. Henry may be the one that goes Ballistic/Stalker-esque, if Betty at this point Rejects him. . .

He is Totally Willing to take on a young woman w/ 3 kids (including an Infant). He is a FOOL. But he is CRAZY about her and has utterly played by her Rules thus far.

Feedback???

NOTE: Our Sweet Friends have indeed started another MM site that is Gracious and Brilliant and MODERATED. Only Serious Maddicts Need Apply. I LOVE this HOME/AMC Site; Warts and all, but I Hope to see some of you Big Cats over there.

ALSO: I have been posting on THIS Thread for almost 2 years. Anyone that has read a few of my Posts KNOWS I am WILD about the singular Author and most Profound Social Satirist of our Time (i.e., the 20th Century!): Aldous Huxley. He died the very same day that JFK did. Since Huxley was a Brilliant and Celebrated Intellectual, I was disappointed that his passing was not mentioned by Paul or Ken. But on second thought, who am I to tamper w/ Weiner's Masterpiece!?

OOPS: YES: it is "CRONKITE!"

CHEERS!

Anyone catch the rifle again in the background of Pete's office? It's in the beginning. Do you find any significance in that given their attention to detail? I find it interesting because this episode by the looks of it was a defining moment for Pete, and here we see the rifle again.

He's rebelling against being the company man now, which Pete is the ultimate company man. Where he went to Roger's wedding, he skips this one. He wants, at this point anyway, to leave SC. And again, in the end they look like a page out of Kurt and Smitty, which is the opposite of the Pete we know. Another exploration of one of the core themes to the show being that of identity. This seems to be a defining time for Pete.

Last year in the end with Peggy when he finds out his fish do in fact swim, seeming to feel like a real man, we see him at the end with the rifle. He got the evidence his ego needed that he is a virile masculine alpha male. Hence the rifle, especially as phallus. That was a defining moment for him and his identity as well.

So at the end of this season like last season, we again have something defining for Pete. And here through the use of the background we're reminded of the rifle which is symbollic of pride and ego for Pete, in an episode of which was about just that for Pete. I don't think it's coincidence. But on the other hand it's hard because it was only in the background so I don't know. But given their meticulous attention to detail...

Well, has anyone seen the photo inside the TV section of the latest Entertainment Weekly? Anyone? (posted about this early Sunday night).
I want a second or more opinion on weather or not that indeed looks like Joan's apartment (wall colors in the background), and why Roger and Don would drop by.

@MyNose and 6465NYWF, thanks for the memories on the TV reception, and sorry you had to live through that.

First post. I'm just wondering if anyone else noticed that the image was considerably more grainy than usual. I'm thinking it had to be on purpose. Maybe to give it a 16mm kind look.

@Hobocode52: Oh yes, I know there is the civil war going on with those who left. Silly, isn't it? Although tonight, it took me five tries just to sign in. I thought perhaps others were having that problem too. And thanks for the compliment on my avatar. Sophia Loren. Such a classy lady.

@adiamond: No, it is not far-fetched to think Roger is behind the Henry Francis/Berry affair (that has not yet really occurred). If you paid attention last night and also at the Derby party you might better understand. In fact, I am so sure Roger is behind it I would bet money! Roger is vindictive and wants to get back at Don (and Betty). Wait for Season 4. This will become quite clear. And it is no more far fetched than all those posters who were convinced Suzanne was the next Glen Close from "Fatal Attraction." She may yet be but I can almost guarantee that it was Henry Francis who called and hung up a couple of episodes ago.

I am having so much trouble with this site it's ridiculous! This is not working at all. Takes me forever to get a posting on and keeps booting me off the site!

I don't think Henry has family money of his own; he told Betty he moved furniture when he was growing up, didn't he? Old money never does manual labor. He may have married money. I also cannot remember whether he's divorced or widowed but I'd bet on widowed, probably something tragic like cancer. It would not surprise me to find out he's moved up socially by marriage, just like guess who?

And if he has any political aspirations of his own down the road, don't expect him to follow through and marry Betty unless Don kicks the bucket first, not after the shellacking Rockefeller took over his divorce to marry Happy - which in itself did not end well, for him anyway.

Singing in the Rain?? A movie about a period of change, the transition from silent film to talkies is also about the difference between real and screen personas (Don Lockwood and Lina Lamont, screen lovers who are anything but in real life), and - surprise - blackmail and fraud: Lina forcing Kathy Selden to be "her" voice in the movie using lip-synching as hilariously demonstrated by Donald "Cosmo" O'Connor. The deception ends when Lina is exposed as a fraud and Kathy "finds her voice." Hmmmm.

Lot's of good comments, and I am very glad, no offense to those who predicted otherwise, that Margaret's wedding went on and that the JFK assassination was not kept for the final episode.

I'm already wondering what I am going to do when this season ends and yet I know that the Don Draper / Dick Whitman story which hooked me is now in the past, even if its repercussions are not. I'll definitely be thinking about the fate of the Draper household for the next nine months. Yet, i am not ready to write Don's and Betty's relationship off. I actually think Don's diagnosis of Betty's profession of not being in love with him was close to the truth. She has quite justifiable reasons to feel her world is falling apart, and the Kennedy assassination amplified those feelings -- DonDraperesq, I think this rather than a sudden reappraisal of her feelings for JFK are at the root of her obsession with the assassination. At the moment she appears to think Henry Francis is the answer, but in a few months' time he is not going to look very successful when Rocky's presidential bid falters, and the moment when she refocuses on her maternal duties, divorcing Don is going to prove a difficult road

That's not to say she won't do it, but the signs of Roger and Jane's marriage going from honeymoon to talking past each other should be a real a warning for those thinking that a Betty with a backbone will necessarily make better choices than the Betty trying to live the feminine mystique.

Meanwhile I was glad to see some of the other story lines return. My big question is whether after Duck's stunt of hiding the Kennedy assassination from Peggy she'll be so eager to see him again.

Hi Greg!

Didn't Pete trade the wedding prez of a hideous pottery chip-n-dip tray, in for the Rifle!? ( at Bergdorf's!?). To me, the Gun looks like an innocuous air-rifle or a BB-gun. But I do get your Metaphors, Darling!

HMMM, I Think that Pete actually wants to helm SC. Will he jump-ship w/ Duck or go POSTAL. INTERESTING! I agree w/ some others that during this epi, he looked snugly BOBO (proto-Bourgeois/Bohemian) and wd be Comfy in the Exploding ART Scene in the East Village!

jhhugo: I seriously doubt that Peggy is going to dump Duck because he unplugged the TV set for half-an-hour. Peggy is being used by Duck and obviously doesn't know THAT, so I doubt that missing a half hour of the JFK saga will cause her to make herself off limits to him.

I'll be back when this site works a bit more efficiently. I was just booted off for the fourth time and had to sign in again and again, and then I cannot always post or the postings take forever to appear. This site is too aggravating. If there is improvement in the coming days, I'll return. Hello AMC? Does anyone know this site does not work right? It's horrendous!

I am going to try to post my comment again: Thank you, Matthew Weiner for a beautiful episode last night. It was breathtaking, and a perfect recreation of the shock and grief of that awful weekend in 1963. Looks like Don is going to reap what he has sown, OR WILL HE? Did everyone notice the story board Peggy showed Don for Aqua Net? The open convertible with four passengers? Brilliant.

Fancynancy: Yes Henry is obsessed with Betty, but she is pretty infatuated with him too. They were both checking each other out at the wedding. (poor Don and his worthless kiss on the dance floor) Then SHE called him to arrange the parking lot meeting. And that kiss in the car! Wow, pretty hot. They were both really into it.

But a marriage proposal? I have to wonder about that. Maybe he thinks that is what it will take to get her in bed. But he may be that crazy in love.

I do also think he has stalker capability. And that WAS him who made the phone call to the Drapers a few weeks ago.

My heart is breaking for Don and his travails. He seems to be alone in a loveless Universe right now except maybe for his confrere Peggy. Can a call to Suzanne be far away?

Sorry, I stand by my criticism of Betty wigging out.

A couple of questions of possibly limited importance:

(1) What was up with the tattoo on Duck's left shoulder? It looked to me like a serial number of some sort. POW? Prison?

(2) Who was Mona's date at the wedding? At the dinner table, that man was suggesting that the entire South should be burned to the ground a la General Sherman as the price for murdering JFK. Shortly after that, Roger made a crack that this guy's net worth was now half of what it was. Was that man somehow connected to the Kennedys?

Greg: I notice that tattoo on Duck too. Kind of weird. Looked like either a number or a small name. But definitely not an ordinary tattoo.

Hello Maddicts!
@fivemilestomidnight, I totally agree with you, this season has been disappointing. I think the writing lacks the zip that it had in S1 and S2, especially Season 1. I also agree that it needs more humor, especially from Roger, I miss the dry humor he displayed in Season 1, Sometimes I think this show is turning into Twin Peaks.

I want more office scenes and lot less Betty Draper, a little of her goes along way. I believe in Season 1, most of the writing was done by the Lisa Albert and Andre & Maria Jacquemetton, but I haven't seen their names on this seasons episodes, I wish they'd come back. I do think Episode 11 was phenomenal, much like the old Mad Men I fell in love with.

This is my first time posting, and I love the insightfulness of the posters on this board!

Ahhh, this show has too many great characters and subplots to just be on once a week for 13 weeks. How I wish someone like MW produced and/or wrote for some of the soaps I watch! ;) ;)

Did anyone notice if the date Henry Francis took to the wedding was the same woman that showed up in lieu of Henry at the fund raiser at Betty's house? I'm not sure if it was her.

Did anyone notice if the date Henry Francis took to the wedding was the same woman that showed up in lieu of Henry at the fund raiser at Betty's house? I'm not sure if it was her.

http://www.paperpast.com/html/1964_fashion.html

Interesting look back at Fashion circa 1964.....shades of things to come next season?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzlwerARL5U

Fashion 1964.....About 1:49 into this clip I could have sworn I was seeing the exact drop dead dress and hairstyle Betty wore in Rome when she was waiting for Don and the local lotharios were trying to pick her up......coincidence much?

@dondraperesq: I'm anxious to see MW's treatment of Betty's character to see which of us has predicted it correctly. I don't think she's gonna wig out. Several days passed, and she spoke with a lawyer before she confronted Don with the locked drawer. She's learning to find critical info before revealing what she knows. I still say Betty is going to surprise us all. Just because she's never had a reason to use what she learned at Bryn Mawr doesn't mean she didn't learn anything. Even if she didn't graduate.

After last night, I can't imagine what MW has in store for us for the finale.

Did anyone else note the "if looks could kill" look Pete shot Ken after leaving Pryce's office? Ken was under a desk fixing a space heater. I thought if Pete had a gun he'd have shot Ken right then and there. It wasn't lost on Ken, either.

@wasthere: wasn't that his daughter he was with????

Hey! No sneak peek for the finale!!!! I guess MW really wants to milk the suspense for all its worth!

@bipolarbear: You could be right. She seemed somewhat taller than Henry. And she seemed concerned as to who he was staring at.

I remember that horrible week very well. The entire country was in a state of shock. It was different from 9/11 because in 2001, people were furious. 1963 was just pure grief.

Some people here just don't think January Jones is a very good actress. I think she is fine. But, this episode really showed what an incredible actor John Slattery is, and what a character Roger Sterling is!

Pete and his wife also impressed me much more than they have in the past. I think I could even get to like him.

To: fivemilestomidnight: I am learning more about you and your own issues than I am about this show or the Kennedy era. Your postings are beginning to offend. I respect differing points of view, but give it a rest, please. Your comments remind me of Ann Coulter bashing the families of 09/11 victims. For those who were and are admirers of JFK, your comments aren't going to change their views; they just alienate. For those like yourself who have no fondness for the man, you are "preaching to the choir." Let's agree to disagree and move on. There are any number of issues one could take with the show based on personal experience. I would be about Sally's age and had very few adults in my world who smoked (or drank alcohol, except for the occasional beer). Most parents I knew actually loved and parented their children (unlike many on this show). It wasn't all "Father Knows Best", or anything, but in my world the focus was on family, community, one's job, church, school, etc. One thing the show does get right...people made an effort to dress appropriately and showed better behavior in public than now. Even in the poorer parts of town, people took care of, and pride in their houses and lawns. We were beginning to move in the right direction with regards to civil rights (though sadly we still have a ways to go). In my experience, this episode dealt accurately with the assassination. In my world it was a big deal, to my family and our friends. We spent the Saturday after the event in Canada (we lived near the Windsor/Detroit border), and everywhere we went, as people would notice we were "Yanks," they would offer their heartfelt condolences on our loss, as though we had lost a family member.

Did anyone check the AquaNet ad in Peggy's office? I think the ad will be quashed as it shows four people in a convertible, and it bore a striking resemblance to the seating arrangement to the four in the car in which President Kennedy was riding in Dallas. The ad will be "in poor taste" and Peggy's ad will go the way of the dodo. Don's creative ad talent will be in question again, and another instance of his downward spiral.
Just a thought...

Betty and Henry? What is the attraction? As sneaky and whoremongering as Don is ( one referred to lovingly as a Ladies Man) it truly angered me when Henry told Betty he would marry her. (I assume that he was assuring her in 1963 speak of a safety net for a sexual affair) . What does she see in this guy? He’s smooth and has a degree of power and position but he is twice her age and has a daughter that appears to be Betty’s age. It’s obvious she has had it with Don Draper. I would like to think there is something still there. I don’t think it has as much to do with the affairs that Betty suspects. Perhaps it has more to do with the small lies (not that hiding your true identity is a small lie) that made Don’s kiss meaningless. It was Betty’s generic moment. In Italy she felt sexy and modern and I truly thought the fire was back for them but in the morning it was back to good old Bets -Here Bets it’s a charm for your charm bracelet, Mother of my kids- instead of here is string of pearls and while we’re here I want to kiss you at the coliseum. Betty has married well and lives in West Chester and wants for nothing but spends her days watching TV while Don unpredictably comes and goes. There is seemingly no interest at all in what is meaningful to Betty or a complete lack of comprehension on Don’s part that his wife could require anything more than the home he has provided for her. She is a trophy and he (although I think he truly will be destroyed when she leaves) he won’t get it until it is too late. It could be that Henry asks her about her and truly seems interested. I think she so craves being a considered human being that any man that gives her that becomes attractive (as women don’t think, in terms of what attracts them, as men do). As an aside there are like 20 posts on here about trolls and bickering and alternative posting sites and blah blah blah. It’s tedious to scroll through to get to posts about the show.

The AquaNet ad was done before the assassination. Peggy is in the office on a day off to try to come up with an alternative ad.

Mr. Draper is not Mr. Whitman. The tags said "Sullivan." Goodbye.

Duck is a self serving tool. He is slimey and subversive. He arranged that deal with the Brits to secure his own dominance and it backfired on him. I wish he would go away but he won't stop until he has his revenge on SC.

I'm the Gypsy. I ran over the "Hobo" in 1985. Would someone please kill me?

First post (long time viewer and reader).
During the tragic weekend of 11/22-11/25/63, Mary McGrory said to Daniel Patrick Moynihan: "We'll never laugh again." To which he replied: "We'll laugh again, but we'll never be young again." The loss of JFK transcended politics, it was about the loss of youth and perceived innocence.

Episode 12 brilliantly depicts this feeling of loss in each character it focuses on, starting with Pete. All are affected in their own way, but the common thread is that the JFK assassination exacerbated behavioral problems for each character that would not have been exhibited in such extreme forms if it had not happened. This dramatic treatment was a great method of capturing what many others were experiencing at that time.

I was in 7th Grade on 11/22/63. We were told the horrible news on the intercom by our principal. Classes were let out early and most of us went home in tears. That night was the first sleepless one I can recall having. A very bad precedent.

Betty has always suspected that Don came from poverty for a long time. She has known that he was a poor farm boy ever since Roger had outed his rural upbringing in Season One's "Red in the Face".

Trust me, she is pissed that she has been married to a man using a stolen identity. She is pissed by that man's continuing habit of emotionally distancing himself from her, due to his fear of being found out.

I'm beginning to suspect that certain fans are pissed that Betty is no longer in love with Don or wants to continue their marriage. I'm not.

I find it interesting that many fans are pissed at Betty for no longer buying Don's bullshit. Betty is responsible for Don's infidelity and mistakes? God, that's a good joke!

"Betty and Henry? What is the attraction? As sneaky and whoremongering as Don is ( one referred to lovingly as a Ladies Man) it truly angered me when Henry told Betty he would marry her. (I assume that he was assuring her in 1963 speak of a safety net for a sexual affair) . What does she see in this guy? He’s smooth and has a degree of power and position but he is twice her age and has a daughter that appears to be Betty’s age."

This is beginning to be sad. Henry's daughter seemed to be close to Margaret Sterling's age, not Betty's. Jeez Louise!

grumpyoldguy: If you're offended, you're offended. Don't read and respond to what offends you. That is all I can say, other than I stand by what I posted and I still think the Kennedy assassination has been overplayed and people like to wallow in it. If you don't like this sentiment, then that's too bad. I suggest you pass by my postings in the future and grump about something else. Or, keep grumping about this, I really don't care.. I have my opinions and you have yours. When on a public board such as this, you must realize you will read things that offend you and that not everyone is going to have the same point of view. Anyway, you're offended. Duly noted. Otherwise, nothing more to say on this subject.

gypsyrover: I really do think Roger is up to something. Yes indeed! Glad someone else agrees that Season3 has not been up to the level of Seasons 1 and 2.

RE: Duck pulling the plug on the tv.

You have the classic MM narcissism. Even in the face of a sudden, national shock, Duck makes damn sure something like that doesn't get in the way of first getting laid. He doesn't open the door, give her the news and hug her and bring her in. Naaa, gotta hide it from her until he gets laid, then tell her. You can't exactly expect pillow talk in the wake of a hotel nooner, but still. But then again that's what happens with mutual using.

At the same time you have the one who is the ultimate narcissist with Pete complaining to Harry. They don't even hear the news because they're too concerned with themselves.

Then of course afterward Roger pushing forward with the wedding as well. Betty, as genuine as her own shock and feelings are, is acting in her own interests as a response and reaction.

It was interesting having the angle of narcissism as a human element just as much as sorrow.

Dr76: I agree. Betty is finally standing up for herself and there are those who continue to whine about her, calling her names and wondering why, when Don tries to comfort her - she pulls away or goes out for a drive. Don wants Betty to be the dutiful wife, stick her head in the sand, and then he can go about his philandering and whatever else he wants to do. His method is to say things like "Come on, Betts, in an exasperated manner whenever she brings up something he doesn't want to hear (like that he hasn't exactly been husband of the year). He wants Betty to simply calm down and be a good little wife. I think those days are over in the Draper household.

Hello, all: The most brilliant episode and insightful comments of the season!

Miscellaneous and random observations:

When Pete was leavng the office, with his collar turned up, he had an almost siinister expression on his face as he looked at Ken. It appeared that he was in slow motion. Ken, of course, was being helpful and looked totally guileless. Such contrasts.

Joan would have been such a help at the office when the news broke (probably would have broken out the good brandy and said, "We all need this.") and would have been the perfect hostess to greet the conflicted guests at the wedding! I think Roger realized this on some level as he picked up the phone to call her, but did not articulate it. Just hearing her voice seemed to comfort him.

Don's acting is exquisite. He can produce three or four expresions within as many seconds. So many sibtle nuances.

On any other show, this episode would have been the season finale. Bit not on Mad Men. Heaven only knows what they have in store for us next week!!!

I couldn't help but think of Simon & Garfunkel through the episode, with everyone preventing the kids from learning ugly grown-up facts:

Hide it in a hiding place where no one ever goes
Put it in your pantry with your cupcakes
It's a little secret, just the Robinsons' affair
Most of all, you've got to hide it from the kids

Oh, as a post script to my last posting, why so many also think Betty a BAD mother now think she is even worse because she is standing up to Don, are really odd. Betty has done nothing to indicate she's a BAD mother! She may not be June Cleaver, Margaret Anderson and Donna Reed all rolled into one (no one is or was all that), but she is also not the Wicked Witch of the West, either. If she were home all day baking pies, cleaning the house (Carla does this), sewing for Sally, and being a Den Mother for Bobby, there would be posters complaining about THAT! They would be yelling that she wasn't liberated and that she was content to sit at home baking and sewing while poor Don slaved all day at Sterling Cooper. I suspect part of this is because Betty is a knockout. If she looked like Peggy's sister then no one would pay this any mind. Yes, it IS about how she looks! At least part of it is. She is maturing and many posters seem to hate her for this. On the other hand, those same posters seem to hate her for being what they deem a "spoiled brat." This woman cannot win with more than a few posters.

@bipolarbear: Betty has already surprised me by wigging out. Last week she was calm and deliberate before, during and after her confrontation of Don. This week, a switch was flipped--the assassination--and she went to pieces. Henry Francis is no solution to her problems. She has learned nothing from her father's death or her experience with Don.

dondraperesque: I never thought of the song "Mrs. Robinson" in the context of which you speak. Perhaps but I always thought parents of that generation (Don and Betty's group) tried to shield their kids more from reality than the parents of today. This is both good and bad. My own parents were much like Don and Betty but I often felt left out of things because of it. I don't know if there is really a right or wrong way.

The Seals and Crofts song "Teach Your Children Well" comes to mind here, although not in relation to Don and Betty.

Sandy: Joan would have indeed brought out the booze in the office when JFK's assassination news hit. She seems always to be the calm in the storm except of course when she beaned her husband on the head with the vase. I thought she was a little over the top on that one. And yes, I thought this last episode would indeed be the season finale and saved for next week. Looks like there are a few surprises left!

@DR76: I agree with you completely. I just have never understood what all this Betty bashing was about. Even the fans are disappointed any time Betty is anything other than a doormat. I was surprised when I found the most gratification of all three seasons when Betty told Don: "I don't love you". I simply underestimated how badly I needed her to do that. All I can say is, Don is lucky he's married to Betty and not me. Vindictive B***** wouldn't even come close.

Dondraperesque: Henry may be no solution for Betty, but then neither is Suzanne (and all the other women) for Don. I think Betty has finally stood up and indicated to Don she isn't going to just sit idly by and watch him do whatever he wants while she stays home and tends the home fires. I can see you are not a Betty fan. I think she will be a different person next season and she and Don will finally part ways.

bipolarbear: You can say that again! Some folks just loathe Betty no matter what she does and now that she is refusing to be treated like some second-class citizen by him (I notice Don can do whatever he wants and not too many say a word), she is reviled! Again, I despise the way he always tries to make her feel inferior or wrong by saying "C'mon, Betts," in that exasperated way, whenever she has caught him in a lie or stands up to him. It's like "Oh, come on, you're just over reacting." He wants to do whatever he wants and have Betty play the good little say nothing, do nothing, wife and mother. How convenient for Don!

@dondraperesq: We sure have different definitions of going to pieces. Yes, she met Henry. Yes, she kissed him. Not a surprising move by a woman whose options are the following: 1) expose Don's true identity and get him thrown in jail, thereby eliminating all financial support. 2) Hire a private-eye and wait for him to cheat again so you can prove adultery and get a divorce. Again with little assurance of financial security. 3) Find the next candidate to support you. You'll note that she did not immediately jump at Henry's marriage proposal. She's shopping.

She was signing the back of Don's paychecks last season during the jet set and presumably paying the bills. Give her some time to crack that Executive Account she's sure to find out about next. She doesn't trust Don as far as she can throw him.

@mod squad: you may have picked-up from my earlier posts, on earlier threads, that I left behind an old, beige, 2001, slow-as-molasses, inoperable right-click mouse button, system riddled with viruses "clunker", for this sleek, new, black, shiny, whip-speed, Dell laptop, which performs great, but has way too many "pop-ups" to interfere w/ the simple act of typing text. Ironically, the "clunker" "refreshed" with absolutely no problem, when I pressed F5, but on this great, NEW laptop, pressing F5 (which a dropped msg assures me is for 'refresh') has absolutely NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER! In order to REFRESH on this new Dell Laptop, I must sign-in &/or sign-out, & sometimes leave the Internet altogether, and return to the site, b4 the blog is "refreshed" up to date. If any posters have any suggestions that don't include pressing F5, I'll be more than happy to try them, as "refresh" is a big, BIG part of keeping-up w/ the Open Thread, as I'm certain you are all aware of. Thanks. RC

Boy...do I feel dumb! Only saw the back of Jen's head and did not realize who she was! Of course Harry is the TV exec! (and a regular cast member.)

hi maddicts - great insight here, apparently i have missed a lot of details - hoping to find some kid free time to watch the epi again!

my thoughts on betty is that she is not going to divorce don -yet (i could be wrong). i do think she gave herself the mental ok to start an affair with henry. i also think she is looking to hurt don, so i don't think she will be hiding it very well - i presume she still has his letters.

on pete and trudy - they do seem to be closer as a couple, but staying home from the wedding was less about JFK and more about the lack of opportunity. remember at the derby party, trudy seemed to scoop up betty, as if to say pete and i are next 'it' couple. even their dance was more about 'hey notice us' and not a genuine display of newlywed affection!

have we been told henry's story??? divorced, widowed, still married, we just don't know. henry was escorted by his daughter, why was his wife absent, could she have been distraught over JFK's assassination or is she absent from the picture? henry did say he moved furniture and he seems to have a NY accent that doesn't scream high society. in addition, his position in politics reads 'more up and coming' than 'i've arrived'! on the other hand, his daughter looked elegant and simply put, her look was expensive. maybe the daughter is married with money??

can't wait to watch again - looking forward to seeing duck's tatt - missed that the first time around!!!

Henry walked into the wedding reception alone and his daughter was already there. She took him over to Margaret for congratulations, etc. We don't know anything about his former/late life. Betty knows he moved furniture but she's not necessarily against that, having had a father who knew about roofing, probably from first-hand experience. It's entirely possible Henry had a wife who died and left him her inheritance.

Right now Betty is looking for an out, a way to get away from her current life, away, away, away. She's not living the life she wanted. Stupid, yes, but we're talking about someone who is seeing her life as one-eighth empty rather than seven-eigths full.

Betty's not necessarily looking for love. She wants to get away from her now-hated life - friends, town, house, kids and Don (not necessarily in that order.) Even Don when he flew to CA was not in that bad of mental shape. The family lawyer has said unless she could prove infidelity in court, she'd be left with nothing. To Betty, at this juncture, that sounds acceptable.

Henry says the word "marry" because back in those days, discovery of a politician's "love nest," especially with a still-married woman would be the death of his career. Just ask Rocky. (Yes, he did become Vice President in '74 but that was by appointment, not election.) Henry has to be far more careful than she does.

Re: Trolls, etc.
Gresham's Law - Bad money drives out good. i.e. good money is withdrawn from circulation when counterfeit or debased coinage appears. In this case, abusive or overtly sexist/whatever posters drive out good posters.

A website that clogs up RAM and slows computer performance to below a snail's pace doesn't help.

@fivemiles: I have been a supporter of Betty; she is just very aggravating right now because she can't hold it together like she has in the past.

@bipolarbear: Betty has already implicitly "jumped" at Henry's quasi-proposal by serving Don with "notice" that she doesn't love him anymore. She announced it as soon as she got back from her drive to "clear her head." That is a quick a turnaround as you can get.

Just wondering if anyone can clear this up. I know Betty told Don she did not love him anymore. Did she say at any point that she wanted a divorce? Many people stayed together for the sake of their kids then and now. I know from personal experience that is a mistake. Glad I got out of my marriage when I did, but divorce in the nineties was not akin to divorce in the sixties.

Wow I just commented on a separate thread "Did You Vote For Obamma" and after answering in the negative, woooooooosh the thread was gone. What is going on here.

@dondraperesq: There was nothing sudden about it. It occurs to me that Betty was slowly falling out of love with Don beginning in season one with the physical manifestation of the numbness of her hands. It has taken the discovery/proof of an affair, separation via the jet-setters, revelations regarding Don's true identity and finally the catalyst of the Kennedy Assassination for her to fully acknowledge this.

When Betty met Henry and kissed him she felt more kissing Henry (even if it was just infatuation) than she did kissing Don at the wedding. It was at this point that she finally accepted for herself that she no longer loved Don. I suspect that's been true for a very long time. The only thing that's different is that she has admitted it to herself and to Don. Maybe she decided to tell Don she doesn't love him because she wants to hurt him. Maybe she's so indifferent to him at this point she just doesn't care one way or the other. The point is, she's done pretending to be in love with him and she's putting him on notice.

@fivemiles -

Personally, I don't Betty bash because of her looks. As a tiara owner that doesn't bother me. What does bother me is I don't think she's a good actress. She's improved...but not there yet. And I'd like a little more from the soul of Betty Draper...not just the fringe.

@MADtini: I disagree about JJ's acting. She is asked to play the unemotional role by Wiener, et al because of her Norwegian heritage and her Bryn Wawr background where the upper class do not show emotion. Think of Jackie Kennedy at the funeral of her husband. I think January is doing a fine job in that respect.

When I think of Pete and his wife at the end - she in that blue sweater and un-coiffed - I wonder if Pete will go toward the rebels in the business - like the VW ads - forget his patrician name which doesn't really serve him - just a thought.

I think we have some posters who just like to make noise and irritate thoughtful posters.

Dondraperesque: I don't know what you mean by "hold it together" when referring to Betty. In my view, she is finally letting it all hang out and that's a good thing! She is finally not sucking up Don's bad-boy behavior (affairs, hidden identities, hidden money, etc.) and is finally standing her ground. I guess we see this two different ways. And that's fine. I have always liked the Betty character though I know many do not. There are not many characters I don't like on the show. Some I like better than others. Don is one of the few I really don't care for at all, but I am sure that's what the writers want to convey when they write his part.

Madtini: In my view, Betty is evolving and growing into a more self-assured person, inasmuch as she is now standing her ground with Don. She has drawn a line in the sand, so to speak. I thought JJ was a fine actress from the get go. Everyone sees something different however. Anyway, go Betty!

hoboecode52: I believe Betty started to say "I want..." and I assumed she was going to say "a divorce.." but she stopped short. This was of course at the end of ep12 when he came into the living room after having seen Henry Francis. At that point (after she began the "I want.."), she told Don she did not love him anymore. Small wonder. He habitually cheats on her, had a hidden past and identity (I think that was the proverbial straw for her), hides money, etc. I always thought Don was one of those guys who wants to live life as a single guy might, but under the respectable cloak of marriage.

You are right, divorce was indeed viewed differently in the sixties than more recently. I thought it was shocking when one of my parents friends got divorced back then, but now, I know so many people who are divorced (some for the second time) it's no longer as shocking.

@Madtini - I read above somewhere (maybe a different thread) from someone who has studied acting and acted that Betty is even better than Don because she sets up his reactions so beautifully and needs to be credited. I agree with this. The scenes where he is forced to tell her about his pictures - both amazing. Also I think Betty is prettier than January Jones - in the Grace Kelly-ness which inhabits her, the bearing, etc.

@Fivemilestomidnight - Marianne Williamson has a really interesting take on the assassinations of the 60s and their impact on the boomers. I don't know about you but I will never forget being 11 and watching Lee Harvey Oswald get shot before my very eyes on tv. No wonder we are the way we are! Geez! Marianne Williamson said the message of those assassinations was "There will be no more protest. Do what you want in the private sector but politics is no vehicle for your ideals." And so she thinks a lot of good energy was wasted in pursuit of useless things, because we obeyed. We were pretty deeply shocked, (something weird if we were not!) and so to me it seems human that they seem frozen in those memories, watching the tv specials. The Kennedy call to public service offered meaning to some as an option to do something good with their privileged lives. We really did change the world. Obama is president now, no matter how well he's doing. Women are Secretaries of State. The loss of the Kennedys and Martin Luther King were no trifling matters.

Duck's tattoo- I think it is one of those USMC tattoos you see on a lot of WWII vets. Or at least you did when I was a kid a lot of peoples grandfathers had them.

Henry- I think it's possible that Roger put henry up to hitting on Betty but now I think he really is obsessed with her.

Pete an Kenny- I thought it was funny when Pete said Kenny and his hair cut. What hair cut??? It looks just like everyone else. Maybe a millimeter longer in the front.

Lastly, thanks to all of you that came by my blog. I guess I should have been posting links to my mad men wrap ups all season.

carried'hermes: So true about the trolling posters who just want to annoy. I call it "pitiful posting." However, here is my view on this just for the record. I wish that people would simply - when they come across an obvious nasty little troll post - ignore it and move on to a post they feel is worth answering.

On the flip side of this there are some extremely touchy posters (in my view) whose feelings are apparently just below the surface and who seem to feel that just because someone posts something they personally don't agree with...or someone disagrees with them on a Mad Men point (or any point), that they are a troll, or are being rude and disrespecting them. I believe some posters need to remember this is only a message board, not the "Gospel According to Madaddicts." I apparently offended a couple of people with my feelings about the Kennedy assassination and Kennedy himself. Hey, that's life. I am not changing my stance and will continue to post my opinions as I wish. Nor will I weigh literally every word I type for fear of offending someone here. In my view, differing opinions and perceptions are not personal attacks, and when that comes into the mix I either leave or just ignore that poster. The old action/reaction thing.

Okay, back to Mad Men!

carred'Hermes: Well, you have your opinions and thanks for sharing them. I am not sure what you are trying to convey here (maybe my reading perception is down this afternoon). Anyway, thanks again. I am not a Kennedy-lover and never was. Well, perhaps when I was a young kid but that was a long time ago. He was assassinated 46 years ago. It was too bad. But, life went on. It goes on still. And it will continue to go on despite that or any other tragedy. I don't really want to relive it every year or endlessly read about it. It's boring to me. Again, thanks for your thoughts.

This board is still operating at a snail's pace! I post and it does not appear for three minutes or more. I can hit the refresh button again and again and it doesn't matter. One would think that AMC would have a bit better set up than this!

Greg: Duck pulling the plug on the TV was the classic act of narcissism? I just thought he wanted to have undisturbed sex with Peggy. He plugged the TV back in what, twenty minutes later. I didn't read all that much into it. Maybe I missed something.

I had absolutely no problem with MM depicting the Kennedy assassination and its aftermath on all. I'm a boomer and that day, where I was, etc. is forever etched in my mind. It represented the loss of innocence and idealism in America. Whether you were pro Kennedy or not, the event left an indelible mark.
Kudos to John Hamm, once again. He is truly the most multi dimensional character on the show: a testament to his great acting.

Hello Maddicts! I FINALLY have a chance to catch up on all my MM blogs!

Some good things to read here....thanks to
Racy, Greg, FanNan, HoboCode, BiPolarBear, WasThere, DDEsq., Ritt1, sixitesgirl, Auburn Annie, deepdish, pi168, rnpen, LuckyStike, 60'sChild, A-Line, and jhhugo. and anyone else who's still sticking it out here on the AMC board...

WARNING: There is no lifeguard on duty, swim at your own risk ;)

@amybett: So, what's your take on Betty? Is she gonna go for it with Henry or just lead him on and use him to see what she can get out of him?

@ five miles & @ was there - I want to see something in Betty's eyes that she FEELS. I'll agree with you (and have said so myself) about her upbringing and stoicism. But people who are hurting/are happy show it in their eyes, even if not in their expression. Now THAT would be good acting to present that juxtaposition. I find nothing but blank in hers.

To me, it's like she's a gorgeous prop. Sorry. To each his own. Yes, reminds me of Grace Kelly, who I think, too, was not a very good actress. LOVED HER! But not a great actress. She got better with each role, and I'll concede that January Jones has improved, IMO, since the beginning.

Restrained feeling...that's what I'd like to see. Doesn't Betty feel? Y'all say so. I want to see it...We get it from Joan and she's not emotional. All point of view, of course. I'm moving on...it's no big deal.

@miss59: The pill Betty would have taken was most likely a Miltown. That was the valium of that time (although I think valium came out in 1960). Remember in season two when Francine and Betty were in the beauty salon during the Cuban Missle Crisis and Francine offered one to Betty (to which Betty responded she was pregnant).

Hi all.

My feelings on the character of Betty: She eerily reminds me of my own mother. She pushes my buttons. It is interesting to note that so many posters just love Don no matter what slimy things he does, but can't stand Betty. I had to examine my own feelings on this and that is what I came up with. She pushes my "narcissistic mother" buttons. Okay, I have issues... And Don, well, he's just so darn cute! LOL

@MADtini - I definitely saw some eye action in Betts when she realized Henry's dance partner was his daughter.

Don's song to Betty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTTPqJ7eHJw

I agree with the poster who said because of Betty's background of Society Hill Philadelphia or upper or middleclass society in Philadelphia, a part of her is internally disgusted by Don's background. She thought she was marrying the Football Star, War hero, who didn' get along with his father, maybe he didn't have a moneyed or Country club upbringing but she never thought he was even lower than blue collar, to the point of being a Prostitutes son, who was raised in a dirt poor exsistence. In the early show she asked Don if he had a Nanny when he was a child. I just don't think she ever thought she was with a guy who still didn't have access to a normal life and through his football , good looks, I think she assumed he still was allowed into the young world she existed in of Proms, dances, soirees, even if he was not moneyed.

I think Roger had a similar look of disgust or disdain over the "I ate horse meat" comment from Don in previous episode.

.....The Kennedy Assasination was a tragedy of epic proportions I was not in school yet, still being just out of toddler stage, about 3nhalf-going into almost four yrs old, but I remember our house became a sad place where people gathered, Our world stopped, our street stopped, people came outside/inside talked and weeped and the weeping did not stop for days. I was playing in front of the tv on the floor and I remember my mom screamed just like Betty did. I remember windows of houses on the street opening people yelling to someone in the street or across ,to come in , and I could hear tv's on , they were turned on all over the street, church bells started ringing, our pastor knocking on doors, telling everyone who needs to ,to gather at the church for prayer. The world stopped for days and all that I saw was people crying, sadness, tv images, funeral and death(which before that day I didn't know existed, I didn't know what death was until Kennedy died. I didn't know people could be shot and killed. ) I asked my mom "What does DIE mean?" I was shocked that people could be violent and kill others. I remember me and my younger brother were afraid to sleep because we might die like the President, you see , we were not aware of death and this was so scary and mysterious to us. My older brothers and sisters were sent home from school. They cried, they were scared they might not make it home, they were glad that police were escorting kids home from school. I remember firemen coming to our home telling the mothers on the street that dinners were being prepared and given out for any families who wanted dinner at this time, since many ladies may not have had a chance to cook, the Firestation had their wives and volunteers preparing dinners for the whole town. I saw Firemen with sadness in their eyes.
No one in my town or neighborhood joked, that this former decorated War hero, young charismatic President with a beloved wife and young family was slain.,(I was hoping to get a Caroline Kennedy doll or some doll that looked like her. My dad would tell me I was pretty as Caroline Kennedy, because I used to stop and stare when she was on tv)

That day stopped everything normal around my world for days and days, nothing went on as usual.

Poor Peggy, I think she's got terrible self esteem issues, what is she still boinking Duck for. That's just ewwwwwwwy, she just goes there and lays down in bed, like 'anybody's" h....... The woman has some serious, self esteem issues about herself.

Don may lean on Peggy for support for awhile though.

I think we can look forward to welcoming Sal back...I hope!!!!!

p.s. What's with people coming on a site and complaining then telling people to come over to "their site" (sounds highschool cliche)
What's the point, do people want all one voice ?

The AMC site is fine with me and so is MadMen the show, it was a stellar season, once again.

@bipolarbear- I don't think Betty knows what she wants. She wants to be a "grown up" but can't figure out what that means exactly. The Henry part of her life is the only thing she feels she has control over.
She needs a confidant and a friend and Henry is listening, but to what end? I think he just wants her in the sack, and that would be that.
I do think she'll keep him hanging on (to what end I don't know), but now he's starting to seem like the bunny boiler, so she'd better watch out!

@SixtiesGirl: I think there has been at least one or two episodes (or characters) with which everyone has issues. The stories are fairly accurate portrayal of peoples' personalities and how things worked in society during the era, and all that. I actually have issues with the way SC has treated Pete! I have always liked the Pete character and never thought SC gave him his due. Different things push different buttons in different people, I believe.

I agree, Don seems to be able to just be the slime-ball of the year and you don't really read too many negative posts that say so. Men seem to be forgiven quite a bit (and often by women themselves) simply because they are men. You know, the old "Boys will be boys" malarky.

On the other hand Betty has been called every ugly name in the book on this board at one time or another. And lately it seems some people here cannot separate the fictional Betty from the real January Jones, and now poor January's acting ability is on the chopping block. I think she is very good. And certainly very attractive. She would have to be a good actress to have sparked this much emotion from so many posters! I think she plays Betty very well. Sometimes I think Jon Hamm is rather wooden as Don. I am not at all enthralled by him or his acting ability. He's adequate but nothing particularly special. I like Roger a lot better and think that John Slattery is the better actor.

Anyway, women usually seem to take the brunt of the thing. (If you don't believe that, read the Bible!) And if a child is screwed up, somehow, it's always mommy that's to blame, rarely if ever, daddy. It's usually a case of "Mommie Dearest." Rarely do we ever hear of "Daddy Dearest."

Penultimate: Loved it, loved it, loved it!

By SixtiesGirl on November 3, 2009 5:35 PM

@MADtini - I definitely saw some eye action in Betts when she realized Henry's dance partner was his daughter.
**************************************

You know. I did too. She's improving. (this example was part of my reasoning for my mentioning her improvement from earlier seasons and episodes.) Thanks for sharing. I am not TOTALLY unreasonable about this idea.

My mother issues aside, I love all the characters and actors on this show. That's why I am a full-fledged Maddict. I think January Jones is stunning to look at and her acting intrigues me. Not every actor has to act like an extraverted ham. The understated actors actually hold my attention more, because I am watching their every nuance.

I do love the idea of Joan and Roger getting together, though. They both seem to have an attitude of laughing at everyone else just a little bit, as if to say, "Poor schlubbs, if they only knew..."

Pete is growing on me. He's definitely a little boy, but a little boy with big ambitions and a wife who's very willing to help him meet his ambitions.

Mona is my new hero. Anyone who can handle Margaret and Roger deserves a medal.

And Sally...she deserves an Emmy!

@SixtiesGirl: I too think Pete has those big ambitions you mentioned and that Trudy will help him realize them. And Mona, I almost forgot about her. I wish her part was bigger. Really like her.

I am not as wild about the Draper kids though. I find them distracting. However, the little girl who plays Sally does do a good job of it. Just wish there was less of her.

Hard to believe that this coming Sunday wraps up Season 3. It went by so fast!

hi again!

i think betty can be an awesome actress at times - like her drug induced delirium when she delivers G.S. Drapper - or her titillating performance masturbating to a runnaway washing machine (now that takes skill) - she can be ahhhhmazing!

however, sometimes she can come across a little amateurish. like when she did the twist and said "we won, we won, we won" or in last night's epi, after she screamed, she stood and said 'what is going on'. her scream was great but the her line after sounded like it belonged in the movie Mean Girls. mostly, i am impressed but at times it comes down to the delivery of a single line.

for that matter, i thought the same of jon hamm during his korean war scenes or when he was having flashbacks of anna drapper - kinda eehhh

Oh know ... starting to feel guilty .... really i love you JJ and JH .... sorry i'm a nit picker!

When I think of Sally (don't know her real name) I think of the scene between her and Grandpa Gene and the missing $5 bill. I thought her facial expressions and body language were amazingly convincing. I teach 10 year olds and am pretty familiar with their capabilities. The actress portraying Sally (and I should know her name) is extraordinary!

wasthere: I agree Betty is doing a fine job. I predict a SAG, Golden Globe and maybe Emmy nod. JJ went through almost every emotion possible this season. Her scene with Don, where he revealed his identity will definately get some nominations coming both their way. Jon Hamm of course always superb, simply superb.

I DON'T think Betty will leave Don completely or for good, because Henry will be found out to be a worse con artist than any of them. She is about to go from the Frying Pan into the Fire. Also he's running a Campaign, he may use her "marriage" as a reason he can't go through with breaking apart a marriage right now, bad for his image and let's NOT forget that Lady who visited Betty's house for the fund raiser, I don't think we've seen the lat of her. She may opn Betty's eyes up to the real world concerning Henry, wo Betty thinks might be her saviour. I think Henry is a big, big phoney!

Good to see Joan always a pleasure.

Jane is a whiney bad drinker, she's miserable. She should have taken a better look at the office available men and hooked up with a mover-up and comer , maybe Ken? It's obvious she detests Roger and he knows he has married a child.
It was funny watching Roger handle Jane his teen bride, while his wife handle their child bride to be!

Watched Rosemary's Baby, last night and the scene where Rosemary's gets the book "ALL of Then Witches" from her friend, where names are circled on old photos and his message is the names are a anagram, which she later finds out her neighbor is the guy in the book, with his father who is a witch, they've all changed their names, but her friend Hutch finds it in a old book and Rosemary's eyes are opened that people around her aren't what they seem or even Who they say they are. It reminded me of the scene of Betty and the box as Don slowly reveals the truth of the contents to her.

Does anyone know the song that Don and Betty danced to at the wedding?

Does anyone know the name of the song that Don and Betty danced to at the wedding?

The funny thing about Pete is, he has the most lucrative contracts in the whole of SC , he because he has the Military Contracts, which inclued new technology, missles, satellites, planes, of course war planes, I think tanks, etc.
SC will be throwing titles and money at Pete to keep him there if he tries to leave and take his clients, because SC will lose a motherload of money if Pete goes and takes clients with him.

firstavenue: I agree with pretty much every thing you are saying! I always thought that scene in RB was creepy, as was the movie! A classic to be sure.

fancynancy: I must disagree about Henry. I don't believe he is genuine at all with Betty... remember he is a politician! Him professing "love" at this point in their relationship would never work with a mature woman but he knows Betty is a child and will buy it.

Episode 13 teaser has me really wondering what Connie and Don will talk about. Connie is so unpredictable. He could offer him a fabulous job or he could fire him from the account entirely. Either extreme is possible with Connie.

Pete: as a few have noted, I thought it was odd to highlight his rifle as promiently as they did. Can't be an accident. I could see Pete quitting after the talk with his clients that will happen in Epi 13 and then waving his gun around as he walks out the door. Maybe approaches Ken and scares the daylights out of him.

Looking forward to Sunday. This season has been uneven. Started good and then dragged in the middle but is finishing strong.

Dear all,
Thanks for your posts and giving me different ways of looking at things. Speaking of looks, did you catch the look Sally and Bobby flashed each other at the breakfast table--Bobby nodding at Sally to check out the way mommy and daddy were looking at each other? Maybe they'll be the ones to fish their parents' relationship out of the fire. Oooh and Don's framed look into the kitchen--wow--like the family pictures upstairs on the dressing table. "Is this it?" perhaps he's thinking to himself, "is this my family now, just a memory fit for a photograph?" It's been such a familiar image over the past 2 seasons--Don coming into the kitchen on the way to work. Brr.

Let me weigh in on the Don/Betty exchange when she says she doesn't love him any more. I'm not sure I believe her yet, nor am I sure that's really the point of what she wants to tell Don. I suspect that what she really wants to tell him would take hours, but she tries to do it in a poignant phrase--the way one often says it when what's bugging you has been allowed to ferment too long, no? She wants to shock him into saying something, and not be patronizing and not just walk away. That doesn't sound to me like somebody who doesn't care any more.

Interesting the parallel in these confessions: in epi 11 Don is confronted, loses his bearing, and then asks Betty, "where do you want me to begin." Then, out it came in more measured, albeit pathetic, detail. In this past epi, Betty enters the room and says "where do I begin." If the parallels are important to MW and writers, I suspect she'll offer an argument next week to follow up her statement about love that was meant to induce pain. And he does look as though he's in pain. Alas, he deserves it. And I hope the pain ends soon, because I'm tired of feeling like I'm walking on egg shells whenever I'm with those two.

I wonder if Anna will make a surprise visit to help ease the pain. From what little I've seen of her, she seems genuinely sympathetic toward Don for reasons that are not yet absolutely clear to me. The way they spoke to each other in CA made me think that she might be his only real friend.

I hope that Don will get a chance to deck Henry the way he decked Jimmy Barrett when he got between him and his girl. How gallant that would be?! I don't think that Don will lose Betty without a fight.

Today's GradSem discussion was far-ranging and heated. Our students expressed widely diverging sentiments on many issues, but they almost universally despise Betty.

Allison, normally a reserved young lady, was unusually vocal. "Betty makes everyone retch. I picture that sow flopped in the front seat of her gas-guzzling land boat, head against the drivers door, left foot atop the glove compartment, right leg over the passenger seat, the way she's been 'making love' since puberty. She snaps impatiently, 'C'mon Henry, let's see what you got. I wanta get this over with.' And all the time she has that standard sullen, put-out sulk on her hard middle-aged countenance." In the plain English of 1963, Allison declares that Betty is "a lousy lay, a manny-girl."

Other students decried "all that fatuous Camelot hand-wringing," as Rolf so aptly put it. They saw right through the cheap device of trying to tap into an "imaginary zeitgeist." Rolf continued, "I'm offended by the transparent efforts to suck emotion for any Kennedy crapbag. My sympathies lie with Marilyn Monroe, Mary Jo Kopechne, Karen Gray and their many other victims." His comments drew spontaneous applause.

sixties girl - keirnan shipka is sally's name - not sure if i have spelled keirnan correctly! i am a fan on fb!

I suspect Connie will cancel the contract with SC. For some reason. Heck, there's probably a "moral turpitude" clause. Don doesn't have the Bible or a picture of his family in his office.

Two questions:
Who was the brunette sitting next to Ken at the reception dinner? Obviously not a regular cast member and the caption gives everyone's name but hers.

Second, who was in charge of making Betty's dress for the wedding reception? Or was it an expression of how upset Betty was at having to go to the wedding? That has to be the ugliest thing she must have had in the house. Looks like a fancy housecoat with a fur neckline. Made JJ look ten pounds heavier.

First ave -
Even if the sale of SC is a done deal, if Pete leaves and takes a few of his clients, the deal may be off. The critial question: Will he take Ho-Ho with him? Actually, I doubt he can take them with him. SC would have contracts with each client. I doubt any of them would jump ship immediately and lose their advertising campaign. They may find they like Ken more than they like Pete.

If PP&L/SC lets Don go, is his non-compete clause still in effect? I don't know. Does anyone? Bert may not feel good about Don but he does know how valuable he is to the company. Or would PP&L decide Don is the only thing worth keeping in the company and transfer him to London? Leaving Betty behind in Ossining.

Perhaps it's just me but if I was Don, when Pryce told me there's no money for the candidate he wants to hire, rather than blowing up and running to Bert, I'd sit down. "Lane, level with me. What is going on at PP&L? You have to know. It sounds like they're trying to save every last penny and there is no future to move forward into. The only reason I can see is... oh, God, not again..."

If Betty says, "I want a divorce!" Don should put aside his differences and ask Roger who was better, his lawyer or Mona's. In the meantime, he should move his money to an account with a different name.

Not that I think she will. I think Henry will break her heart/fantasy Sunday night. And she'll slowly realize Don was right - everything will be okay, in spite of everything that has happened. Yes, he has cheated on her repeatedly, yes, he had a life she was totally unaware of until only weeks earlier and like most men, leaves her in the dark about many things. At least she has seen his paycheck and she has paid the bills. But when it comes to her actual life, home, children - how can she leave that? that is, if she was sane.

Sure, she knew about the money in his drawer but there are a lot of women who work with a budget. $200 in their checking account would be like over a thousand dollars now. Don, like many prudent people, keeps an emergency fund. Going to Philly was not an emergency. She knew it or she would not have asked - she would have taken some of the drawer money. What would worry her is if the drawer money suddenly disappears.

fullprofessor - just wondering what is the average age of your students? if you are unmarried and childless it may be difficult to understand how don's many infidelities, secrets, lies, verbal abuse, and absenteeism could damage a person's self esteem and cause her depression. you may recall during the carousel episode we see pictures of don and betty in the beginning of their marriage, she is a bright eyed and charming.

you might like to point out to your student allison, that don was repulsed by the idea that betty had been fantasizing about having sex (with her husband) in a previous season. we can assume betty's sexual exploration has been limited to the confines of a fraudulent and emotionally arrested marriage and one tryst in a bar.

Thank you, j9mac. Perhaps Kiernan Shipka will be the next generation's Meryl Streep. I just love her.

I'm assuming you mean facebook - something I have thus far managed to avoid. I'm behind on my lesson plan as it is. I've got to get back to work.

But this is such a fun obsession!

@Madtini: My dad (age 35 in '63) uses Brylcreem in his hair to this day!

Reading people's various feelings about JFK death reminds me these events can be relative: my mom as she boarded a plane for a vacation in Italy 1 week after 9/11: "Oh this is nothing, honey. Now WWII, THAT was scary."

I was born in Feb. of 1964 and Mom feels "it was an uncertain time to have a baby so soon after JFK was shot."

FiveMiles: Yeah I do think Duck performs an ultimate act of out for your own self . She's minding her own business at work and he's hounding her to cut out so he can get laid. In the middle of a horrible national tragedy, instead of telling her he unplugs the tv so she won't turn it on. That's why I think he unplugged it, to not have her come in and sit down and turn on the tube and ruin his getting laid. If you're in the middle of a live tragedy of a presidential assassination, and you're still horny and making sure you can still get laid in the middle of it, I do think it's pretty narcisistic. It's all about him getting what he wants from her first, national tragedy second.

I am probably wrong but I thought the music Don and Betty were dancing to was Moon glow, from PIcnic.
It must have been moonglow, way up in the blue
It must have been moonglow that led me straight to you
I still hear you sayin', "Dear one, hold me fast"
And I keep on prayin', "Oh Lord, please let this last"

We seemed to float right through the air
Heavenly songs seemed to come from everywhere

And now when there's moonglow, way up in the blue
I'll always remember, that moonglow gave me you

It must have been moonglow, way up in the blue
It must have been moonglow that led me straight to you
I still hear you sayin', "Sweet child, hold me fast"
And I keep on prayin', "Oh Lord, please let this last"

We seemed to float right through the air
Heavenly songs seemed to come from everywhere

And now when there's moonglow, way up in the blue
I'll always remember, that moonglow gave me you

Good Evening!

There was some poster way above that stated that this epi was a disappointment!???

There is SO much to consider and analyze and chat about! I realize that us MADDICTS all arrive here from vastly different disciplines, backgrounds, and worldviews; but isn't that the COOLEST!!!?

-jackcarlson: You are so right: John Slattery, aka Roger Sterling, was particularly Magnificient. He made Roger positively winsome and showed him(to me!) in a completely new and palatable light!

-dondraperesque: INDEED, who is that handsome Italian Stallion that is squiring Mona around these days. Maybe THAT is why she is so beautifully composed and proactive and managerial and witty, in all aspects of her newly divorced status!

-amy bett: YOU are so Lovely! Nice to see you here again. Madore your Input as Always! APROPOS: Your comments about Betty's Henry fixation DO involve issues of "Control." Her alliance/potential Romance w/ Henry places her "in the driver's seat." I think this is a refreshing change for her and also REALLY Turns her ON! TA!

-shadowball245: I reiterate that I think Henry (beyond thinking of his station and despite being a crafty and calculating Politician) is GAGA over Betty. FAR beyond any realm of Rhyme or Reason. SHE somehow pushes ALL of "his buttons." To volunteer to take on children like that, in those Times, was utterly uncommon/unreasonable/unconscionable. . .

-theprof: HELLO! : Don treats Bobby like a puppy ( and BTW where-O-where is the Draper family Retriever?). Sally is looking increasingly omniscient and skeptical of all Adult behavior she surveys. What Future damage are these parents unwittingly bestowing upon their progeny!? ALSO:
In Retrospect, I agree w/ you. Betty is all bottled-up despite the recent Catharsis of copious physical weeping. By stating "I don't Love you anymore," she is trying to succinctly (in one brief, fell swoop) wound Don since she cannot fully articulate the breadth of her confusion, overwhelmence, and Existensial Angst! GREAT POINT!

-first avenue: Please look at RACY's JFK thread on this site. She NEEDS your experiences for her Important Research. PLEASE. It wd be a mutually beneficient Enterprise! TA!

LASTLY!!! (I, too, have Maddening Tech Probs and cannot "Sign-On" as often and easily as one wd wish to). . .
Was Duck's Tattoo c/o some echelon of the Military. Was he a POW?! Please advise. WHERE IS ZABADU WHEN WE NEED HER? RACY? GREG? JLHUGO? FIFTY-TWO? ET AL?

And FINALLY: Peggy said to her new roomie "Oh no, Duck's not Married," when grilled about him. The roomie seemed Surprised! WHY!? I do not GET it!

CHEERS!

Does anyone know the name of song as the episode ended with Don in his office and credits starting to roll?

By Fivemilestomidnight on November 2, 2009 3:47 AM
maddox: Skeeter Davis singing "End of the World."

As stated above.

Agree with dondraperesque. Betty wigged out. It was interesting to see she and Don in the nursery in the middle of the night. I thought I saw genuine warmth between the two of them. Then later he comes home after the Kennedy getting shot and hugs her. Again, genuine warmth. But he screws up and scolds her a bit, "What are the kids doing watching this?" He puts her off. That sets the stage. When the politician shows, again, its a circumstance that is RULING Betty's emotions. Don shows her all his charm and she's immune - the window of opportunity closed early in the episode when he dismissed her with "Take a pill and lie down." I agree with others, I think Henry is going to play Betty big time. He's got a daughter already - grown. I don't think he has an interest in a brand new, 3 kid, ready made family. Betty mentioned the three kids to him because for whatever else she is, she doesn't intend to leave them behind. Henry's motto should be, "Its all about sincerity, once you learn to fake that, you've got it made." Then its going to be interesting to see what happens between she and Don. Right now Betty has ALL the power and "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." Don has limited options. If they divorce she calls all the shots with the threat of exposing him to the liability of his criminal offense. And if Don then gets remarried, what then? Does he open up and tell Suzanne too? "Here ya go Suzanne, Betty has a gun pointed at my head so I thought you should have one too." And if he doesn't tell her, then Betty can threaten to expose him to Suzanne or whoever the next Mrs. Draper might be. If he bails, disappears and runs (like the Calif trip) that's his only real out. But he doesn't want that. He tried Calif on and it wasn't what he wanted. What Don wants most, at his deepest level, a level he is still coming to terms with is that he wants to be connected. And for Betty, all the power won't bring her happiness. I still see that they are the best hope of lasting happiness for one another. So I find myself rooting for them. Because maybe, this time, they'll do it right and well...

Greg: Like I said, I guess I missed that aspect. I probably don't analyze it all that closely. Wish Peggy would find someone who was not using her.

Helen: You are not wrong. It was indeed "Moonglow." The song is used often in many movies and TV programs, and of course as you mentioned in "Picnic." I believe it was also used in "Caddyshack," an odd pairing of music and movie, but there you are!

@fancynancy - I think Peggy's roommate could only fathom Peggy being with an older man if it were for fun only, no attachments. So she figures he must be married, otherwise too risky. That was my guess anyway.

Poly, I agree completly with your comment about the tone of the show now being so heavily gloomy all the time. The last episode was the culminationof sadness and depression that has building all season. It was a show about death - of JFK, Don and Betty's marriage (very sad...after last week I actually thought they had a chance), and Pete's career at the agency. The "I don't love you" scene between Betty and Don was especially tough to watch for me. About 12 years ago I saw my marriage of 25 years end in the same manner. I can say from experience, that those words can cut you to your soul. And Jon Hamm and January Jones made it all very believable. I'm not sure if Betty ever really loved Don (or her children) and probably will never really love Henry either. She will be always looking for that fairy tale relationship that doesn't exist. I would be surprised if the "interesting advice" that Betty is supposed to get in the finale is that she can have her marriage to Don/Dick annulled, since he was never really Don Draper.

One last comment - can't wait to see January host SNL on November 14. I got a feeling she will have some fun with her Mad Men character's shallow and depressing demeanor.

I thought of it in association with Picnic because of the dance scene. William Holden was the bum wandering through town and dancing with the beauty queen. Well,some kind of queen. Festival queen maybe. Kind of fits with Don and Betty. Thanks for confirming the song.

@Helen: You're welcome. It certainly fit "Picnic" better than "Caddyshack," but it's a great song nonetheless. I guess that is why it's used so often.

It's also used in the movie "The Fabulous Baker Boys" when Jack Baker (Jeff Bridges) dances with Suzy Diamond (Michelle Pfeiffer). My favorite versions are by Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw.

Good comparison to "Picnic", Helen!

Right after my last posting, I was booted off ( YET AGAIN) by this infernal site! For a while I tried to get back on with no luck. Pages would not load and then they would only "half-load" and then nothing the whole site froze up. I just came in through another avenue on the site but now I don't recall what it was or how I did it. This is the worst site on the Web tech-wise! The worst! If these constant technical problems continue, there is really no point in spending any additional time here. Also, I will post something and then it's at least three to five minutes before the posting appears. I can hit refresh numerous times and nothing. I know a couple of others posted that they too were having trouble with this site. This low-tech site has become ridiculous beyond belief! Does AMC or Rainbow Media or whoever they are even care about this site? Seems not. I wonder if the advertisers who are here know what a problem many seem to have getting on here. At this rate, everyone will leave and their advertising dollars will be wasted. Rant over, but it may be my last on this subject because I cannot seem to get back on once the system boots me off!

@Ritt-- I went to Marshall High School but not until '67.

When Kennedy was shot, I was in sixth grade and they sent us out to recess, then called us in for the announcement, just like another poster mentioned above. We watched everything on TV for days, and I saw Oswald's murder live. No one felt we shouldn't watch the coverage. My folks were very supportive of Kennedy, and had fallen in love with the whole Camelot thing, even though they had enjoyed the "First Family" comedy album. (They threw it away after he was killed, out of guilt, I assume.) I remember my dad was frustrated by the Warren Report.

This past Sunday afternoon my sister was visiting from out of town, and we drove over to our old neighborhood where we were living in '63. Strangely enough, we then decided to go by our old elementary school for the first time since the sixties. When I took one look at that playground, all the memories of the assassination came flooding back. Then that night's episode of Mad Men featured the whole thing, and I got chills that I'd been visited by those memories before I even knew it would be the center of the episode. It was so weirdly coincidental.

Just in case anyone wondered, I haven't "seceded". One blog's more than enough for me to keep track of!

@FanNan-- I don't know about Duck's tattoo, but I didn't mind looking at him in his boxers, even if he is a rat for unplugging the box. ;-)

@Ritt-- I agree about Betty's outfit for the wedding, and that yellowing fur cape didn't help. It looked positively moth-eaten! And once again, she wore something that magically appeared in her closet, without having to go into town to shop for it. Must be nice to be clothed by a fairy godmother every time you have a function to attend! I spend weeks getting an ensemble together. Anyone else?

Matt-- give us one shopping scene, for heaven's sake!

@fivemiles and others. Thank you so much for speaking up for Betty. I think JJ is unbelievably talented--the character is so nuanced and she hits every dimension perfectly. As I have said I was a freshman in high school at the time of the assassination. So I went from childhood to teen in the early 60s. Betty perfectly portrays many dimensions of motherhood from that time. I don't know how she has been able to capture it because if you did not live during those years I don't know how you can portray the nuances--how could you even know? The interplay with Sally is incredible--very very accurate. And yes, totally different from today's mother. One cannot judge, it simply is what it was.

I think Betty has been devastated by Don. Remember when she was driving home with Don after finding out about the Bobby affair--how she just started vomiting -- a visceral uncontrollable reaction -- as she sat next to him in the car?? She has been ravaged by his affairs. The whole numbness in her hands thing. I agree with some others that the whole identity thing was the crowning blow and she just can't take it any more. Many are saying Don loves her and will fight for the marriage. I don't understand this--he has been lying to her and cheating on her continuously--he can't love her. I really hope Betty gets a chance at happiness and intimacy. Not sure Francis is the one. However, I can believe she is tempted by a way out. I do think in those days if a woman is going to try to leave a marriage she absolutely had to have a next man lined up. Love Betty.

I don’t want to get lost here in a premature wrap-up, but I can’t resist wondering about the future. Though there aren’t as many in our numbers as there were for “The Soprano,” series, next Sunday’s MM show has got to be the most anticipated ending since that long-running program wrapped up its bloody saga about life west of the Hudson River. And hopefully Mr. Weiner has learned his lesson and won’t repeat the disappointment of that final episode.

Some time back a few of you observed that Don Draper died the day he signed the Sterling Cooper contract. It was in fact the death of his professional life. Then, when Betty announced she no longer loved him, we saw his personal life die as well, though she didn’t say what she planned to do about it.

But whether or not Betty actually decides to leave him, how long will our hero be able to go on at the office, or lead any kind of social life, as “Don Draper??” Three people now know about his disguise. The information Bert got from Pet forced Don to give up his much-cherished freedom at the office. Betty’s discovery cost him his position at home. Gone now is the family dream he desperately craved since childhood as well as the perfect wife for him as a Madison Avenue power broker.

So will Don Draper now be living out future seasons as a ghost? Or will he just call everybody into the conference room and spill everything the way he did with Betty. Well that didn’t go over too well now, did it?

The truth is that the truth is just too horrific to reveal! How does one explain years of posturing and lies to the people who most trusted and admired you? And how would such a tale go over in the crass world of advertising?

But there’s still hope for Dick Whitman, provided years of deception haven’t damaged his psychic wiring. It was he, after all, who created Don Draper and the kingdom that kept him in clover for over a decade. Anyone who did that once surely do it again. He’d have to start from the beginning of course, with new people and a new career. And as Dick Whitman!

One person who could be a valued helper is his first wife, Anna. She’s the only one we know who both knows the whole story and has completely accepted him as both Dick and Don. She’d certainly understand his dilemma and be willing to provide the emotional crutch he’ll so badly need to put his live back together.

@maximum_girl: Finally I am back on this site and it's working (knock wood). You're welcome about the good words from me and others for Betty (and January Jones). I agree too that I hope Betty finds happiness (it sure won't be with Don and like you, I too am not sure Henry Francis is the one. Something strange there.). Yes, Betty has spent years being lied to by Don and though it takes two to make a marriage work, I think Don's efforts have been almost nil. He does not repsect Betty or his marriage, or really, his children.

@fivemilestomidnight: I agree completely! I can't bear to watch the way this guy treats his family. When SF asked him, before their fling, "what about your wife and family" (or words to that effect), he said "I don't care." He doesn't care?! That felt like a stake in the heart. So why are we interested in this guy--because we want him to succeed, despite his tragic flaws (like the hero of a Shakespearean tragedy), or because we're waiting for him to get his comupins? I'm sure his family will play an important part in the rest of the series, but in what form after this flame out?

Has everyone forgotten that Betty was being treated for ongoing depression when MM first started? Could her mixed-up emotional state now be a result of post-partum depression, something that was severely underdiagnosed back then? I live with a family member that suffers from depression. I recognize the flat, emotionless, "dead" stares Betty often gives to her family. Or is she numb from the pills that Don encouraged her to pop?

I do want to make one observation after watching the episode a second time: When Betty was crying after learning that JFK had died, Sally sat next to Betty an put her arm around her and Betty leaned her head into Sally....it was actually quite touching.

Great subtle acting by the children as they watched their parents in the kitchen for any sign of affection.

theprof: Indeed, I agree that "I don't care" remark of Don's was really too much!

This has to be the best MM episode yet. It is a pity that some posters have been using the thread to repeat their lone-nut nonsense. CIA apologists stay away.

NTL, K's murder is the backdrop for the drama and was used with startling brilliance - worth an Emmy all of its own. This was a turning-point for a generation (the US/Cuban missile crisis could have been used in a similar way) and Betty is going to use it to change her whole life around - not for the best, of course. Does anyone out there believe a single politician? Betty (who looked so breathtakingly beautiful in her house coat) is discontented, shallow and stubborn. There is no love in that household and never has been. The children know it.

Two key characters were missing from the epsiode - Don's loving teacher (Don, tellingly, didn't phone her to find out how she was coping) and the mad as a hatter Hilton. They will make their presences felt in the finale, which can't come too soon, but which I just don't want to pass. MM is simply the most intelligent piece of television this decade.

Clearly, Duck is the catalyst here. He will be the first to know that SC is up for sale. What will he do with this information? Pete and Peggy might come out on top. And let's hope for an embarrassing end for the oleaginous Brits who think they are running the show. Madison Avenue should be American through and through, not some colonial toy for the mindless non creatives in London.

Sundays (or Mondays for us in the UK) are just not going to be the same come Thanksgiving.

SPOILER ALERT

I don't think anyone has reported this yet and since there is so much secrecy about the season finale I put up the alert.
The IMDB lists "a farmer" and Dick Whitman as a boy in the cast for episode 13. So we know at least one thing; there will be a flashback. That, along with the fact that the original title was "The Silo", will give some of us pause.

Is there a season 4? Or does the Draper family head out to Snappy Lunch or Holden's or whatever the name of their favorite diner for some burgers and onion rings. Don searching the table juke box for a suitable tune for the evening decides to hit J6," Singing in the rain" The waitress arrives and low and behold, its Suzanne, working a second job to help support her sick brother. Sally is beside herself and jumps up and down to hug Suzanne, Don watches Sally as she wraps her arms around her and presses her head into Suzannes ample bosoms, never has a white waitress uniform looked so sexy with her black curls and pouty lips. Betty senses something is just not right, as Sally releases her grip on Suzanne a tear begins to drip from her right eye. She takes their order and returns to the grill.
The bell over the door sounds and in walks Henry Francis, with his assistant, I cant remember her name, the amazon. Henry looks dapper as they take a seat at the bar and order. Betty excuses herself to the ladies room, for a walk past Henry and a glance just before she opens the door. Henry watches her disappear and dreams of the day he can join her. Don thinks Henry looks familiar but cant quite place him.
In the back corner a group of cub scouts with their stewardess Mom are oblivious to the plot about to thicken. Shelly allows them to play with her jet badges
A loud and obnoxious man enters with his drunk wife following, who but the Barretts, they take a table near the door so she can drink from her purse without anyone watching. He screams, whos ass do you have to kiss to get a little service around here.
The mens room door opens and a wall street looking guy emerges, you guessed it, Betty's bar patron, he takes a seat at the bar beside Henry and orders a club sandwich and an Arnold Palmer.
Betty returns and takes an onion ring in her mouth, as she chokes, Sally reaches over and begins to hit her on the back. After a swig of her Patio, she is ok and in walks a couple that looks like they should be on Park avenue.
Its Rachel and her husband, they were out in Ossining for a baby shower as she is expecting twins in a month. They walk by and Don's eyes bug out as he calls to Rachel and introduces her to his family. They exchange pleasantries and Rachel sits at a nearby table in full view of Don, but not Betty.
Burgers are brought to the table and a group of strange looking folks enter, they are from a nearby farm at Woodstock and look like musicians. The attractive brunette with the men is none other than Midge. Don doesnt see them, but Bobby cant understand why they wear sunglasses while it is dark.
Just when you thought it was going to calm down and be a relaxing dinner, the weather changes, wind, thunder, lightning and rain begins to fall. The lights flicker and all of a sudden, the door flies open, in walks Pete wearing a truckers hat and vest, carrying his trusty rifle, he has been drinking and shoulders his weapon. At that very second a loud blast and the diner goes black!

Liquor, that was wonderfully entertaining! How about working Joan and Roger into the scenario somehow?

I think the deal-breaker with Henry will be that he's resistant to take the kids. Betty may not want them either but she doesn't want to be perceived as a Happy Rockefeller who deserted her kids to marry Rocky. Much better if the court decides Don will keep them. Betty will think it would be "tawdry" to have her divorce splashed through the papers. "Uh, Suzanne? I'm wondering if Sally has been acting up at school..."

Fifty-two -
The white stole could have been Betty's mother's that she brought back from Philly.

Interesting that both Don and Betty said, "I don't care," to their "partners" when asked about their family.

ritt1 - maybe the deal breaker is that don finds out about betty and henry.

Fancypants, Greg: Great posts!

I'm still wary of Henry, but can understand it if he's trying to reassure Betty. Afterall, Betty's playing with fire. If Don learns of an affair he can divorce her and take the children. Henry understands that Betty is very insecure. He seems to recognize that she is a very discreet woman. He knows what a risk to her that relationship could be. He's becoming her hero. He can rescue her from her horrible sham of a life. He proposed. He would be a step-father to her children, he would provide for her. I can see how that would be comforting to her. I really hope he turns out to be a good guy. Betty is a victim of Don's lies. She should be very careful to avoid scandal, but she should leave Don.I keep remembering how horrified she was at the Helen Bishop situation. She doesn't want to struggle like Helen, but she can't keep living the lie with Dick/Don. I bet she'll be taking a lot more pills in the future.

Loved Mona, the most grown up this week, the ultimate Queen of the cats, "a lioness" (Female lions do the killing, hunting, ala: go for the neck..). Hilarious that she ordered the Sweet Breads (neck, thymus, heart) for her daughter's wedding feast!

** There are many references to Single, loose women being the kittens & married adult women the cats: "Kittens for Sale" sign replaced by Peggy's "room-mate wanted" in the break room!; Betty house cat, Trudy as cat away, nanny & Suzanne as kittens.

Roger is proprietary with Mona (marked his territory by grabbing and gulping her drink & criticized date) and then Joan (called her w/albatross wifey-poo passed out), not to mention pitting wife vs. daughter. Does he fancy himself as the King of Beasts, the women his harem?. Notice that Mona holds Roger responsible. I hope this foreshadows that she plans to go for his jugular! (FYI: In the wild, it is really the lioness that protects the cub from being killed by the rogue Lion)

Maybe Jane will end up dead? Suicide or a who-done-it.

F

The song at the end of The Grown Ups was very powerful! Well done, Matt W. I think it sounded a little different than the Skeeter Davis original version, though. Anyone have any insight?

I think Betty will stay with Don but have her affair with whats-his-name. For the kids....

Ordinarily I'm careful not to leak information about upcoming episodes. However, I'll make a partial exception.

Best scenes should be titled:
Roger's Pride or All the King of Beast's Women:

Wifey-poo thinks she is actually "good." Roger pits wifey-poo vs. daughter and the dialogue is reminiscent of childish sibling rivalry. The very grown up Mona is way above jealousy of childish Jane, reminding bride the supposed adult (Roger) is responsible. Mona, "the lioness," whom both protects and hunts for the pride, ordered the, "you were right mommy," SWEETBREADS (throat, thymus, heart, stomach) for the bridal meal. She therefore, went for the throat! ROFLOL! Notice that proprietary Roger grabs and finishes off Mona's drink (not wifey-poo's), then jumps to get another cake at her mere mention. He, then, jealously criticizes Mona's date to the triangulated daughter. Finally, he shoves the dead weight albatross, Jane's, arm away (she looks dead) while calling Joan, the final femme of the King of Beast's harem. He likes to have his cake and eat it too! Is Roger already telegraphing wishful thinking by mentioning suicide? I wonder if Jane is going to end up DOA, becoming a who-done-it next season?

Does anyone else think this show will end with Don throwing himself out the office window, like the opening credits

@Chatty Cathy-- I have the same feeling about Jane taking her own life, because she's been bewildered about her failure to find sympathy or friends after marrying Roger. And because there must be a reason why he made that sarcastic remark about her committing suicide after she locked the bedroom door against him. Had she threatened it before?

Oooh, so many good comments!

@G., regarding the EW photo: yes, I think it's Joan's apartment. Her hubby finds out he's shipping to Vietnam, so he hangs himself, and Joan immediately calls Roger who brings Don along.

As for the Father-Son dynamic, Sunday's episode may try to draw parallels between Dick's relationship with his father, and Don's current relationship with Hilton, which may be coming to an end.

I would LOVE if Don caught Betty with Henry. Don would kick his a**! I don't defend Don's behavior, but I still think in those times, she would be better off with him than without.

I signed up for the other MM blog, but I don't like it as much. There are too many separate threads.

Some people are upset that Duck unplugged the TV just before he let Peggy into his hotel room.

I'm not a fan of Duck's but I think he had his priorities firmly in place. He can't do anything about the situation in Dallas. What has happened, has happened. He can do something with Peggy. If he keeps the TV on, he gets no honey. The unplugging of the TV is like keeping booze out of the house for him, he's removing temptation. Until after the nooky. One round with his little hottie is worth far more than a half hour of watching TV where everything will be repeated ad nauseum.

Then he plugs the TV back in and turns it on
-------------------
What impressed me most about the Roger and Jane scene in their bedroom is that he carried her in over his shoulder. Pretty damn good for a guy who's had two heart attacks. I guess regular "workouts" with Jane have rebuilt his stamina.

I loved the way he grabbed Mona's G&T and swallowed the last of it, looking at Don. Something of an "in your face" kind of gesture. Mona's date was also the one who advocated wiping out the South, or at least Texas.

How does a hippie turn on a TV?
He says, "I love you."
Yes, it's bad.

Suggestion: HORK - the other red meat... ??

@Stefanchik: Dr. Greg is not going to hang himself over Vietnam. Don't forget, it's only 1963... at that time, Vietnam was merely a skirmish, a nuisance. He told Joan he'd end up maybe in West Germany, or Vietnam, "if that's still going on". So he will not be distraught over any assignment that comes his way after his residency is completed. Also, he has 6 wks of basic training before his residency begins. Greg is going nowhere, this season anyway.

If Don & Roger appear at Joan's door maybe it's to proffer some sort of job proposal?

@Elise - No. If Don does that, show over.

@maxgirl~I think that Don loves Betty, but think about his life. He has never seen a normal relationship. Children learn by their parents, watching them, mimicking in play. If you don’t see how a relationship should work, how a person shows another how to love, then you can’t do it. You do what you know. My husband is the same way. His childhood wasn’t the greatest, and I know he loves me with everything, but sometimes I have to tell him directly what a normal relationship is like. Which is partly a guy thing anyways (sorry guys). He never had a really normal family, so he didn’t know what a normal family does until he met mine, which isn’t typical either, but loving.
I agree~Betty has been numbed by Don’s actions. How much can one person take? You give them chances, give them all of your love and they continue the same hurtful actions. I think she will always love him, but she’s numb to him now. Numb to everything. But I think she’s showing more to her children.
Where is the dog??? Did he “run away”?
Parenting was different back then. I was not alive back then, but I talk to my parents a lot about their lives as children, and so on. Parenting (for most) has become more hands on now. It’s just the change of the times. But I’ll shut up because I wasn’t there!
Sally knows her stuff, even Bobby is catching on!!
What would you do in Betty’s position? Sure, she may have started out spoiled, but who is really the spoiled one here, Don or Betty? Who gets to do whatever they want, and who holds the family, house, etc. together? Who’s the grown up now?
Peggy and Duck = Yuck!!

Miss59~ I think for once, Betty is out of a depression. She’s taking action instead of letting it all go on without her actions.
@Liquor-Hilarious!!
Love all of your comments!!

OK, I need some help and by reading the comments I can tell that everyone here is far more knowledgable than me on the ways of Mad Men.

What exactly is the problem between Don and Roger? I admit in the past it always seemed like Don tolerated Roger because he was his boss but there did seem to be a friendship. Is it once the buyout happened and Don got his share plus the victory over Duck, he no longer needs to kiss Roger's a**? If so, then Roger now realizes that Don never liked him at all and is really angry. I'm not sure I buy into the theory of Roger turning Henry loose on Betty but I'm not by nature a fan of conspiracy theories. They certainly seem to know each other but I assume it's just high society fund raisers and such.

I guess I'm just perplexed at the hostility between the two- did you notice the look Roger gave Don at the wedding? Whoa!

Hey guys,
I need your help. I just found out I'm going to an interview with Matt Weiner tonight. I need smart questions in case I get a chance to ask one.
Please leave any you might have in the comment section of my blog here.
Thanks,
http://elisesramblings.blogspot.com/2009/11/matt-weiner-interview-tonight.html

The Draper dog is alive and well. In Episode 11, Don told Betts he just came home to feed the dog and change his shirt.
==================
The problem with Roger and Don, well let’s see…

1. Roger made a play for Betty in Season 2.
2. Roger caused Mona to blame Don for Roger leaving her for Jane.
3. Roger fired Freddy Rumson.
4. Roger fired Sal Romano.
5. Now Roger doesn’t have a real position, so he’s throwing his weight around… “You’re in over your head, Don!”

OK, I'll disclose this much, but NO MORE. What must be shown in an upcoming episode which will meet three tests? First, it must be historically accurate. Second, it must evoke burning social significance and controversy. Finally, it must set the stage for a a major career development on the part of one Mad Men character?

That's right! We're going to be treated to a coat-hanger abortion! I will NOT reveal which character gets the abortion (or who fertilized her) but i will -- since everybody has already guessed the obvious -- disclose that it's performed by Greg. For those who thought Greg was going to be killed off as a hopeless loser, you'll see instead that his medical training and surgical experience are being rewarded with a lucrative new practice.

In the not too distant future Greg will be living large in a co-op on Fifth, facing the park, with a weekend place in East Hampton. And that's just BEFORE Roe v. Wade, which is by then less than a decade in the future -- after which he'll become even wealthier as well as respected for his contributions to society. Proving that nice guys DO win, after all.

I'm going to stop here, because I've already revealed more that I intended. I don't wish to become known as a leaker.

No kisses from Daddy towards the end. Don always kisses the kids when he leaves.
Did anyone else think Peggy looked fat again? They had her looking so super skinny, but to me she looked fat again,sorry Miss Moss.
Also if this was any other web site I would wonder if it was giving my PC viruses.

Elise, it's always good to ask screenwriters which character they patterned on themselves. I think I know the answer, but let's see if he tells you the truth.

Elise: You may wish to ask him if the rumor is true that next season will start in January versus next summer. Let's hope!

I thought this episode was great.

I don't understand those who wish the Kennedy affair would've been eliminated or done differently.

It was done exactly right, I thought. A general sense of craziness in the air, but it did not stop life from going on. Sex, business, money, family: all trudged on, willy-nilly.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, my mother, age 22 in 1963 (and looking then like a younger version of Annabelle Caldecott) recently said: "When the Kennedy thing happened, none of us UT college students believed for a moment that it was an accident; we naturally assumed the shooting had been choreographed by LBJ and his cronies."

One character at the wedding wishes the whole of Texas would be wiped out. I was born in Austin, in Feb. 1963 (the week Sylvia Plath put her head in the oven, and a mere couple of weeks before the demise of singers Patsy Cline and Johnny Horton. Edith Piaf would pass in October.).

HUD- set in Texas, was a huge movie in 1963, and did well to show how, in the early 60's, Texas still seemed like a bit of a foreign country to many Americans. Nowadays, Texas is just as urban and as suburban as any other state in the union, but back then it really seemed like Kennedy was flying outside of his "safety zone". Turns out, he was.

I loved the brush-script font on PERCY COLLINS's band podium... That script and the look of the band, and their repertoire, are spot-on for the time-period of the episode. I remain so impressed with MM's (mostly faultless) commitment to period fidelity.

I was surprised to see that Duck really has a nice physique for a fella his age, don't you think?

I would think that a wedding ceremony held on Nov. 22nd, 1963 or the day after would really be the most inauspicious blow-out.... Are we to take it as a bad omen, like in the movie THE DEERHUNTER in which the bride, during her wedding toast, spills red wine down the front of her gown (a bad omen in Polish-American culture) alluding not only to a stormy marriage, but the impending Viet Nam debacle.

I loved the Tiki design of the "coconut" ceramic serving dish on Pete 'n' Trudy's dinner table. I recently bought a fabulous book on TIKI designs (and sensibilities) from the wonderful TASCHEN catalog:

http://www.taschen.com/pages/en/catalogue/popculture/all/03881/facts.tiki_modern.htm

Truly, to understand 1963, one has to understand TIKI: American servicemen had spent many fascinating and entertaining times in the South Pacific during WWII... Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, Fiji, Tahiti, etc. As a recent HISTORY CHANNEL documentary pointed out, it was a time of unrestricted sexual freedom for American servicemen... but returning to the the USA in the 1950's was all about kowtowing once again to monogamy, celibacy, sexual propriety, etc. But they had those Tiki designs--- buildings, hotels, bars, drinks, restaurants, popular art, clothing, etc.--- to remind them of their unrestrained flings during the War.

Maybe you'll love these paintings by Mark Ryden as much as I do:

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn252/NotSoSecretNinja/markryden5.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb217/HenryFitzroy/Weird%20stuff/Tiki_God.jpg?t=1257369593

Betty may have been a girl, but January Jones is not. Just read this article about lingerie and January Jones.
http://womens-intimate-apparel.suite101.com/article.cfm/how_to_buy_her_lingerie_this_holiday_season

Mona: "Just because she went to India doesn't mean she's not an idiot." zinger!

@fivemiles: per your post on November 3, 2009 5:47 PM: My reaction was a) I agree and b) sometimes us women are our own worst enemies. DD is a cad. Why people blame Betty for the way she reacts to his behavior is beyond me. I'm waiting for her to perform an Elaine Bobbit.

I find it fascinating that with the exception of Greg, the men on this board are reluctant to believe Betty when she tells Don she doesn't love him. Its a tribute to the writing that the male and female characters so accurately reflect the feelings of the male and female viewers.

@Rit1: If PP&L/SC lets Don go, is his non-compete clause still in effect? Answer: Yes. That's the whole reason non-compete clauses are
put in contracts. It prevents talent from going to the competition whether you fire them or they quit. Roger actually states "Don is our Ogilvy". At this point, Don is a major asset and selling point to a potential buyer. (Unless or until he loses HC, then all bets are off)

@moltomad: DD could start a new life, new profession, but he can't do it as Dick Whitman. Dick Whitman is legally dead.

I checked this blog today to see if anyone has posted the link to ADDT Theatre. Anyone?????

Two things: This web site has been bad all season, but this week takes the cake. I've always had to refresh before and after posting, but now its taking up to 15 or 20 minutes for my posts to appear no matter how many times I refresh. Last week one poster aptly chided that this website must be run by a Commodore!

I was 3 weeks from turning 3 years old when Kennedy was murdered. I have no memory of the event or of the reactions of people around me. I have come to the conclusion that there is no way for me to accurately understand what happened that day as the numerous documentaries, movies, news clips, opinion pieces, etc. tend to all state at least one fact that is contradicted by another source. I don't know what to believe. I have a hard cover copy of the Warren Report. I tried reading it once but found it so dry I didn't get very far. I've come to the conclusion that the investigation of that event was so poorly done, so much evidence destroyed (on accident or on purpose) no one will ever know exactly what happened. I'm waiting for someone to use facial recognition software on the Oswald clip where he states: "I was just a patsy" to see if he was lying. Seems to me even if Oswald were a lone gunman that doesn't negate a conspiracy. Just sayin'.

LaurieB: thanks for the recap of the Don/Roger feud. I'd forgotten some of those issues.

And as far as the site running slow or getting kicked off, I'm not sure what everyone is so angry about. I'm not a regular to this forum but I've had no problems yesterday or today.

bipolarbear: Funny about your Bobbit comment. Some of the guys on Mad Men (Don in particular) could use one! A Bobbit.

This site is being over run by those trolls with with amoebic dysentery. The other threads are getting as nasty and combative as the main thread usually gets. No, this is not worth the aggravation. What a sewer this place is now. It won't change. Good luck to all who have decided to stay. Though I never thought I would do it, I am going to the other side. This place (check out some of the other threads, as well) is putrid. Adios!

@Rasputin: Those paintings are beautiful. They remind me somewhat of Gaugin's. My favorite artist has always been Icart, but lately I'm loving Maxwell Parish too.

Episode 13- "Shut the door. Have a Seat".

Sounds like someone is getting fired... my guess is Connie is dropping Dona and SC from the Hilton account.

Or Pryce says these words to the SC team and drops the bomb about the firm being for sale again.

Either way, these are 6 words you never want to hear!

CHEERS ALL!

WOW: rasputin1963: you must read and post on RACY's JFK/1963 Thread. She is conducting some research for a novel and needs your perspectives. I too am a collector of MARK RYDEN. I have All of his books and catalogues and some of his signed prints. He is brilliantly dark and scholared and wickedly satirical! So happy that I know someone else who knows his work. I recently purchased "The Tree Show" book and find it magnificient! Check-out "Heidi Cody's" website and LINKS. I'm an Art History MFA drop-out from UNC-CH. I adore Bruce Nauman, Lisa Yuskavage, John Currin, Walton Ford, and Alex Rockwell particularly. Lovelove that you know this territory. EXCITING!

-Ritt 1: GREAT Notes! There WAS s'thing strangely proprietary about Roger tossing-back the vestiges of Mona's drink. But she has seemingly moved on w/ a Latin Hottie!

-Ms nikki: Glad you see my angle. I do think Henry Francis is an honorable man, despite being a politician. But he IS truly SMITTEN. He cd be her proverbial "white knight." Or he cd do something desperate and devastating due to his extreme PASSION!?

-Elise: I have always thought that the falling scene in the opening credits foreshadowed some grim reality of Don jumping out the window of the skyscraper SC is housed in.
I sure hope it never happens, but it cd be the last act of the last season whenever MM (painfully!) ends. But I doubt it will occur prior. The series requires its protagonist too much! TA!

-"LIQUOR:" what a clever bit of hypothetical script-writing. WOW. I can imagine that scene in the diner perfectly. "Be careful what you wish for. . . " LOVELY!

Fan/Nan

@Rasputin...I appreciate you explanation about the Tiki fascination during that time period. There was a Kon-Tiki restaurant in Cleveland, Ohio that was very popular for special occasions. The drinks were served in exotic (huge) glasses , coconuts or hollowed out pineapples, with the proverbial umbrellas, stir sticks with Tiki gods on them, etc. It was fun!

I think the man who made the statement about burning Texas and the South was Mona's date. Roger made a remark about how the man's finances would take a dive after the JFK assassination.

@bipolarbear: I know, I know, I'm one of those males unwilling to believe Betty when she says she doesn't love Don. But it's not because I can't believe her (because I'm a male). I think I'm just buying what the the story tellers are selling me--uncertainty.

As I review the epi, it appears to me at first as though Pandora (aka Betty) has held on to hope. "Where was Don? Gone again?!" No, he's up before her tending to the baby--all snuggled up with him sweetly to boot. That was a tender moment, and it looked to me as though she found the scene touching. "I'll be there soon," she says. And when he came home after the assassination, she needed a hug and he certainly gave it to her. That looked to me like a tender embrace. Okay, we're on the mend, I thought.

But then the heat got turned up, like in the office, when Henry turned up at the wedding (which reminded her of her dilemma). It's captured strikingly in that long shot (Hitchcock style; or is that Orson Welles's style?) of Don in the foreground and Henry in the background but both in focus. The additional trauma of the Oswald killing (she screamed this time and didn't weep) pushed her back into the "I don't love you any more" column--a place she had already been right before Don's revelation (remember: "If you were me would you love you"?--or something like that). Her body language after that scene, collapsing into a heap on the couch, looked to me like "oh, what am I going to do?"

And that angry face the next morning. Did it say "I don't love you/don't care about you?" Or does she really still want to scream at him, which suggests to me, again, her uncertainty. Heck, they're still sleeping in the same bed together, but maybe not for long. I guess we'll find out soon enough. Or maybe not.

Someone noted on the other site (maybe here too) that this upcoming ep was originally entitled "Silo" and the cast list included young Dick/Don and his father.

Is there a chance that Dick killed his father in a silo "accident" when he was 10 years old? If so, it looks like a pattern. He killed his captain by "accident" in the war too.

Maybe these aren't accidents? I could swear in one episode Don tells someone that as a child he "didn't fit in." A loner, perhaps? A sociopath?

Forgive me if I'm getting carried away. But knowing MW, the final ep will be a doozy!

Ken Kesey and The Merry Pranksters hit the road east in the summer of '64.

HELLO DARLING MONTY!
(Serious Maddicts: SORRY: I NEEDED A LITTLE FUN!)

"WHO ARE YOU?" "I'M JOY!" It seems as if you are "I'M MISERY." Did you have a terrible childhood, ala Bobby and Sally's?

WHY INFECT/DESECRATE/CRAP on this Site that so many of us AUTHENTIC and PROUD MADDICTS LOVE?!

Above, you used an Avatar by Mark Ryden, and NOW you decry him?! WEIRD. SICK.

YOU offer all of these Eastern European Strumpets to plead your INCOMPREHENSIBLE "CASE." WTF! Are YOU a PLANT by some AMC-Rival ADVERTISER to get OUR collective ire/dander UP?

HOW DARE YOU! FOR SHAME! You are posturing like some kind of MACHIAVELLI en route to the ASYLUM. WHO ARE YOU and WHY!?

AHEM:

-Laurie B.: SOA is getting increasingly "off-the-map." I adore the character "JAX," as you do. . .But my God, the show is so WILD and IMPLAUSIBLEand VIOLENT. What do you think? I'm waiting tonight to watch the CRAZY new "NIP/TUCK" epi. It is the MOST BIZARRE TV SHOW EVER!

XXX: REAL MADFANS!

A little help please. Earlier in this thread, reference was made to "drinking a milkshake". I'm watching "Modern Family", which by the way is funny as hell, and THEY made reference to "drinking a milkshake". I must have missed the memo. What gives?

AGAIN!

-RASPUTIN1963: You mentioned all of the TIKI references and their origins. BRILLIANT! I did not KNOW all-of-this!
APROPOS: I always used a "Trader Vic's" recipe-book when Bartending, to eek myway thru University! Thanx for the Cultural reference!

-theprof and NickStephens: Do ya'll know about Aldous Huxley and his History and Legacy. Please Advise!?

XXX!

According to the Urban Dictionary:

I drink your milkshake

Line used by Daniel Day Lewis (Daniel Plainview) in the movie "There will be Blood".

This line is used to insult opposition in the moment of victory or revenge.

"I drink your milkshake!" - This can be used after dumping girl/boyfriend, quiting your job, scoring a winning point or teasing a friend bitterly.

Teach Your Children is a Crosby, Stills & Nash song...not Seals & Crofts.

Wow, this was once a vibrant,interesting forum. I wonder what happened to it.

How sad.....

I recall how it was long ago....a Maddict couldn't ask for a better, more fun forum.

Again.....so sad

And I mean that sincerely

Hi SCfan and hobocode52!

I finally got to the end of this thread.

You are both SO right!!! Thank you so much for stating what I have been feeling!

I miss the old days...

Maybe this is really way out there...but, do either of you find that there is a relationship between the theme of Season 3 and this MM Forum?

The characters on MM are falling apart...so is our Forum. Weird huh?

Anyway, I'll keep on hoping for that fun again. And I will continue to enjoy speaking with Maddicts who feel the same way.

hobocode52, SCfan -
Gresham's Law. Like gravity, it can't be repealed.

Rasputin -
Like Cleveland, Columbus, Ohio had its own version - The Kahiki, a piece of the tropical Pacific in the middle of Ohio, complete with polynesian/Hawaiian tiki bowls, rain forest, mile-long tropical fish aquarium and flaming drinks. Extremely popular until the WWII generation began to retire. It finally closed in 2000. Where it stood is now a Walgreen's. For a marvelous, descriptive memory of it:

http://www.tikifish.com/kahiki.html

Just had a thought about Don knowing and confronting Betty in front of Henry. "You want this?" Don says, gesturing towards Henry. "I knew you wanted your father back but... Jeez Louise!"

I just discovered this show so excuse me if I don't know a lot about it. Everyone on here seems to be really knowledgeable about all the characters. But, as an older guy who actually remembers the Kennedy assassination, I felt I had to comment about this episode. This episode really effected my wife and I because we both remember where we were when President Kennedy was shot. I was in school, and when they made the announcement, my teacher started crying. I never saw a teacher cry before. My wife and I noticed that the title of this episdode is The Grown Ups - and we were talking about it and think that it's because on Nov.22, 1963, it seemed like all the Grown Ups were crying. Not really us kids, though -- I remember I was just in shock that our President could be shot and killed. I like how the kids in the episode didn't cry - that was realistic.

My wife and I can't believe this show's been on for 3 years now and we just found out about it, just as this season is over. We're looking forward tothe reruns, and we are going to rent the other seasons so we can "catch up"!

Just a couple of comments about this episode. To fully understand what is happening, the viewer must put themselve into the early 1960's and stop generalizing attitudes and behaviors in the 60's to current day situations and attitudes.

I was a sophomore in college during this time. I eventually got my PhD. in Clinical Psychology, (we didn't have degrees in Neuropsych at this time), worked for five years as a Clinical Psychologist and then went back and got my MD and am currently Board Certified as a Neurologist. Needless to say times have changed for the better.

I have enjoyed reading this Blog since MM started. I have always enjoyed reading the comments and then returning to watch the video of the episode realizing how much you miss the first time you view the episode.

However, this time I want to clarify a few points that some may be missing when discussing this episode in regards to the attitudes of "yesteryear" from a "clinical" point of view.

Betty: Yes she has depression and has the precursor to what we call some bi-polar tendencies. Her biggest problem is she is self medicating hersel and not getting the professional guidance she would get today. She stated two inconsistencies to her husband: "I don't love you", and then "I don't love you anymore". The first is without emotion. If you are wondering if a relationship is over then "I don't love you !" If that's your feelings than the relationship is done.
The statement of "I don't love you anymore" is with emotions. I don't love you any more or any less but deep down I love you. The emotions are still there be it positive or negative emotion. Guess what? Your relationship is not over.

Henry: Ladies you are being fooled. Most married woman having extra-martial affairs at that time looked at marriage as the secruity blanket. Let's be thankful that has changed today. This was 1960's when males in positions of authority would say and do anything to get laid. The statement: "I want to marry you". I'll bet everyone was shocked by that statement when Henry said it to Betty. That was automatic speech which the profession referes to as "Non-purposeful speech behavior". You say it but you do not mean it.
Don's statment to his lady friend, "I don't care about them" is the same thing.
Back to Henry: His uses his authority to get want he wants and then moves on. We did not uncover this in the political world until the 80's. Gary Hart, President Bill Clinton, et.el. Now listen to what Henry says. It's what Betts wants to hear. Remember the statement by the Junior Leagueer; you have seen his daughter at the wedding and no mention of him being divorsed. Did you see Betty's sigh of relief when she found out that was Henry's daughter and not his date. Watch the Wedding Reception scene.

Enjoy #1, beware continued viewing of Mad Men will cause the following behavior
1. Purchasing suits from Brooks Brothers
2. Drinking Stoli, Ketel One, Johnny Walker, Patio and Canada Dry Ginger ale during the day
3. Washing with clorox
4. Intense desire for well endowed redheads
5. Learning to play Mozart on your zipper
6. Keeping large amounts of cash at home
7. Wearing a fedora
8. Smoking lucky strikes
9. Failing to use Trojans
10. Watching tv in black and white
11. Flying First Class
12. Redecorating your house in knotty pine and colored ceramic tile, with buying a fainting couch
13. Buying a car with fins
14. Chipping golf balls into the trash can
15. No shoes in the office
16. Heavy 5 o'clock beard
17. Hard side briefcase
18. Daughter with a lisp
19. Filthy son
20. Arriving late at the office, "staying late" at the office
21. Cattle call
22. Closed office door
23. Traveling on expedia.com
24. Calling co-workers by the last name
25. Online not looking at porn, but the MM site
26. Knotted up phone cords
27. Calling JK Harris to solve your tax issues
28. Checking calendar for next eclipse
29. Wearing white only dress shirts
30. Getting shoes polished downstairs in the lobby
31. Not having to press those elevator buttons
32. Secretaries in dresses
33. Guns in the workplace
34. Long lunches
35. Fur both kinds
36. Doctors without a confidentiality agreement
37. Bars with unlocked office doors
38. Black help
39. Church, not every Sunday
40. One word, Viagra

@liquor Good, no great post. I had to check off a few as applying to me correctly. Especially #5 I have recorded it and it will soon be on youtube along with kazoo accompaniment of Stars and Stripes Forever played simultaneously.

@SixtiesChild I don't know if I can relate "The Rise and Fall of The AMC MadMen Blog" to this years season of Mad Men. I am just not that organized of a thinker. At times it has reminded me of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, like right now.
To be serious for a change, it kind of parallels the changes in the USA from the sixties until present times. It was more fun and less restrictive in the earlier periods of both entities. There has been a "loss of innocence" theme in the show, the country, and the forum.
I have joined the Rebel forum,because I enjoyed many of the posters who seceded from this site. I don't think I will last long over there. I feel like Lee Harvey Oswald felt after living in Russia for a while. Quite disillusioned. They do have a faster site, and it is "Troll Free". There were no Trolls under the rule of Vlad the impaler either. They have some strict rules over yonder. I am just curious if speaking my opinions here will get me tossed out of there.
So in conclusion This forum, with all it's warts and trolls and OCD topics like 723 or "Pantyhose" analysis by paralysis" problems still allows one to speak his or her feelings. I thought about sitting on the fence for a spell, but I am not sure how long I can pull that off.
There is also another contingent of posters who did not go to the "alternative " site, that were some of the funniest most entertaining posters around, and they have vanished from both arenas. They are sorely missed. DD fiftytwo via con Dios muchachas.

I can't believe this show is so popular...the story lines are so
shallow. Take away the extra hippy nature of the whole 60s-era- retro buzz, you've got yourself another (yawn!) daytime soap. The whole drinking-smoking-drinking-smoking thing is getting tiresome. I'm a product of that 60s Mad Ave era and not everyone I knew kept a bottle in their desk drawer.

Why don't you Producers pick up an old copy of Jerry Della Famina's "From those Wonderful Folks..." or George Lois's book "George, Be Careful". They relate some great 'war stories' that trump (almost) anything I've seen so far. C'mon, guys...let's pick it up!...

@Hobo: You are still hysterically funny. Will you bring your act to the Eclipse party? BTW, your Yanks won. I don't know whether to be happy or sad as I am an ex-NY Metro area person now living in the Philly suburbs.

@wasthere I am a very sad Phillies fan not a Yankee fan. I am a Phillie fan exiled to upstate NY still I can't complain 2 world series appearances in 2 years. I'll take that anytime. Now I have to shift gears to my flawed NY Giants.

Welcome new viewers and new posters! Ignore the trolls, ignore the nasty and let's keep on with the business of over-dissecting this MAD-deningly addictive show.

My prediction for Sunday: I predict we will see a flashback telling us that somehow Dick was responsible for old man Archie's death. Remember he died getting kicked by a horse, but I'm thinking young Dick instigated it somehow.

@Big Bee: Yes, I follow you! I have a sickening feeling about Henry. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but did you see that self-satisfied look on his face after she left in her daddy's Lincoln? He's got her on the hook (just what she needs, right?). And, of course, she knows almost nothing about him. His daughter's comment at the wedding about her father looking at that *woman* (her emphasis) sounded like reproach, no? Why? Simple jealousy? Perhaps, but, nevertheless, this sounds like trouble. We were made privy to that comment for some reason, I think. And they played it up with Betty's asides and sideward glances. We have no idea whether he's married, divorced, or widowed. (Now I'M sounding protective of her [I have 3 daughters]). Following his daughter's comment, I'm now wondering whether he is married but that his wife doesn't attend events because she's ill or something. Just a hunch. In the words of Connie Hilton "wouldn't that be something" (I think he actually said "isn't this something").

I don't think he's crazy in love with her, either. It doesn't sound to me as though he's had any contact with her since their last phone call, when he reproached her for playing games with him. She thanked him for meeting her--very formal. Oh ya, "I'll marry you," he says--sure thing. Isn't that something like a cliche from that era?
And then he reminds her of her favorite movie. Give me a break. No, he's content to let the prey come to him. See any parallels between Betty's calling Henry and SF's drunk dialing Don? Now, what would the discovery of Henry's insincerity do for Betty? Uh-oh, I keep thinking about those pills at her bedside table and her drugged out body lying there as Don entered the room the evening of the assassination. And I keep thinking about Marilyn's suicide. Oh, it's too horrible to consider.

I've thought some more about Don's homecoming after the assassination. We saw that heartfelt embrace (he saw and she saw in a moment what the other needed in that moment, and nature took over). Another shooting, Oswald's, inspired anger and sent her wheeling out to meet Henry. Just a coincidence? But someone (sorry, can't remember who) said Don missed an opportunity by changing the dynamic by scolding her for letting the kids watch the TV reports. I read it like a missed opportunity, too, at first--I mean, talk about stepping on a cadence (Mozart made a living out of it)-- but then I realized that he was trying to being gallant. "Don't worry about things, Betty, I'll take over, feed the kids, whatever you need." What else would you have expected of the "60s dad"? That's exactly what my father would have done--be strong, if a little pedantic and condescending, and take charge.

@#1 Dad: Oh do watch the previous seasons. I started watching for the first time earlier this season myself and found I was instantly hooked. I've never in my life watched a TV series on a regular basis until this one. Unlike you (and many of you, it seems) I have only a vague memory of the early 60s, having been born only a week before the assassination. But my memories from the late 60s are pretty strong. I wonder if the series will live to see those days? To bring myself up to speed, I binged for a weekend on the 2 previous seasons' episodes. It's well worth it. In fact, I'd recommend doing it that way. Now I just need to get my wife to watch it with me.

Re: Mona. I loved that she was portrayed as strong and happy rather than all bitter and hand-wringing that Roger left her for a teenager. When Roger was dancing with Margaret, he was looking over at Mona, causing Margaret to say "Dad, she's happy!"

Laurie B.: I think Roger let 2 of 'em get away. Joan AND Mona. He's stuck with a baby and he knows it--only what he thought he wanted, right?

No. 1 Dad: So good to hear from a new viewer. Your point about the children not crying was important and I overlooked it. I think you'll find those kind of authentic aspects of the period are almost uncannily reproduced on MadMen. Please rent all the earlier seasons and episodes, it will bring you up to speed and you will be greatly entertained.

BigBee and TheProf: From your comments I'm now getting a different vibe from Henry. That WAS kind of curious how his daughter didn't like how he kept looking at Betty. It sounded like she was thinking "oh no here he goes again" with the womanizing.

Henry knows Betty is not just going to go with some "tawdry" affair so maybe that's why he said he would marry her. He did have a kind of smirk on his face after she left and also after her phone call to him a couple episodes ago where she asked if he had called and hung up. I still say that was him.

What happened to his wife??????????

Big Bee -
Thanks for your post. Seriously, it's always good to get the view from a pro in the field, especially when said pro was there back in the day.

I've thought for a while that Henry was saying what needed to be said to get what he wanted, especially when Betty doesn't want to be "tawdry." If she hadn't refused him earlier, I doubt he would have brought up the subject of marriage.

As mentioned by somebody here, I keep wondering why the title for the finale was changed from "The Silo" to "Shut the Door. Have a Seat." The new title implies that there is some bad news coming. But what would that have to do with a silo?

Okay, found a link for a casting call for Episode 13. Hmmm... looks like we'll be traveling back to the farm. Perhaps this is where the silo part comes in.

[KENNETH DILLON] (40s) An athletic, handsome, and authoritative lawyer. 1-DAY GUEST STAR.

[FARMER 1] (50s) A stocky farmer struggling to get by. CO-STAR.

[FARMER 2] (30s) A skinny and temperamental farmer. CO-STAR.

@Everyone: I thought Matt Weiner wasn't going to touch on the JFK Assassination in his storyline. I'll remember not to believe everything I read, or hear.

As long as MM did touch on it, I just wanted to plead w/ everyone, one more time, to post any JFK Assassination memories you may have, especially if you were born in 1956 and 1957. My memories are the same as Betty. I watched Oswald get shot on LIVE TV, while watching with my Dad. My Dad was 32 and I was 7. My Dad never got over the fact that his 7 year-old daughter saw a man get killed on TV, while sitting safely next to her father, in her safe home, in her safe livingroom.

@BEATLEManiacs! "It's 2:49 PM 'Beatle time', and the Fab Four are just crossing into Canadian air space, so see you at the airport, to meet them in person!" The group, flying first class in a PanAm jet, had no idea they were being promoted as such by radio stations, all over NYC. When they arrived at the airport, & heard all the noise over the sound of their jet engines, they asked the flight attendants if President Johnson was landing? Mad Men is coming very close to this "3rd" British Invasion in their lives. How will they react? I was in front of my family's black & white TV set, on Sunday night, February 9, 1964, to watch "The Beatles" perform LIVE on "The Ed Sullivan Show"! (The same theatre & stage where David Letterman's 'Late Show' is now presented.) I have posted a separate thread to commemerate this 1964 occasion. Please post any of your early (or later) Beatle, memories on this seperate thread! I'm looking forward to reading all your thoughts.

@: #l1Dad, BigBee, grumpyoldguy - it's good to read your new posts. Thanks for sharing your insight and knowledge. Hope you come back after the next episode to share some more.

This board has become rather serious of late, but Hobo and Liquor, I'm glad to partake of your humor. Please continue.
My Stoli and MM mug are ready and waiting for Sunday night.

Finally, they are moderating. Good Job.

BigBee, loved your post. Did anyone notice an episode or so ago that Don is standing by the kitchen table and Sally jumps up into his arms. Bobby then wants his turn and all he gets is a one arm halfway hug. It seems I remember some paranoia about "if you're too affectionate with a boy they'll turn out funny," creeping into the parenting style. Yeah, the turn out funny - damaged, angry, etc. Somebody made a GREAT observation that Henry may in fact be CURRENTLY married.

@fiveminutestomidnight &
@LaurieB.: Hi, Laurie. Thanks for responding on my separate thread: "Memo to Matt Weiner". I wrote you a reply there, but it's been days, & it's never shown-up, so I'll try here on "the Open". Laurie, I didn't mean to mislead you, but "Memo to Matt Weiner": was supposed to be A JOKE. Of course, I would never speak for a whole group of viewers, especially NOT the whole Open Thread! I would also NEVER expect Matt Weiner to read any suggestions we might have. Can you imagine, he's there, just off his Emmy win, sitting w/ his finished pages of Season 4 on his lap: "The Final Mad Men Frontier", & some lackey suggests he go on & read a separate thread, where 6 million viewers have posted their suggestions? I thought that by writing, "Matt, believe it or not, we posters, on the Open Thread, have suggestions for the show, and here they are..." I would be implying that this was just a "put-on", a bit of "end of the season laughs" posts. I expected things to be posted like, "Everyone at SC is fired, & Joan is put in charge, & Don is the first person to come in to beg for his job back, and Joan tells him, "I'm sure we can work something out....." and the screen fades to black. I never expected anyone to take this separate thread seriously. I started it bc posters kept complaining that they wished this & that, & I mentioned, "Well, we need another thread to collect all of these, especailly the funny ones." I'm sorry if I misled anyone, especially you, Laurie, or if anyone thought I was being serious. I'll try to be more obvious with my humor from now on, or just work on being clearer and more comical altogether.
Thanks again for pointing this out to me.

Wasn't it great how Roger's daughter was the only person in the country happy that day, and that was because no one came to her wedding.

Prediction, Don and Connie have a sit down, Connie is upset because he didnt get the Moon, and feels Don is just not doing what is expected. Who could concentrated after the donkey punch to the jewels he got from Trophy Wife Betty. Don does a song and dance routine and Connie is unfazed, Connie utters "You are on notice". Don books a room at the Waldorf and calls Suzanne for a little head clearing and a private focus group. Suzanne gladly drops everything and shows up with bells on.
Sorry if this is a repeat, but Betty calls Henry for a referral of an attorney to ask about a divorce. Once the attorney hears her story, he is more worried about the problems that might face Henry as he could be called as a witness. The attorney advises Betty to ask for a reasonable settlement to avoid a nasty trial. Betty does so and moves back to Pennsylvania to live in her old house with Bobby and Sally. She takes a job at the local newspaper covering social events and is an attractive date for all the newly divorced men in the area.
Pete feels a swelling in his sack and he calls his clients trying to figure out how he got blindsided out of the VP job. No one wants to hear a whiny pip call and ask a bunch of stupid questions. Lee Garner, Jr, of Lucky Strike calls up Henry and has Pete fired. Pete hooks up with Sal as another discruntled SC employee that Lucky Strike has screwed, so they load up Petes Mothers station wagon with Petes trusty rifle and head down to North Carolina to get even. Unfortunately they stop for gas in Mayberry and Sal heads to the mens room and falls in love with a truck driver and Pete gets his ass kicked by some hillbilly rednecks and they steal his car and gun, scene fades to black with dueling bangos from Deliverence

I generally agree with Camilia about Don_Jr's insightful comments. I was 8 going on 9 at the time of the JFK assassination and I think it's easy to assess that aspect of episode 12 through the prisms of one's personal politics and as well as one's tolerance for the mythical character the JFK administration and it's tragic ending has acquired over the past 46 years. Some fail to appreciate just how shocking and upsetting it was to most Americans in that relatively innocent time. At the same time, it's genuine here-and -now emotional impact has been transformed, in retrospect into something it wasn't-making it paradoxically both a bigger and a smaller an event than experienced at the time. Keep in mind much larger numbers of people claim to have voted for JFK in 1960 than actually did and many cherish the illusion that he would have withfdrawn from Vietnam.

Kudos to the viewer who pointed out anachronistic use of slang like "grab dinner"..."hang in there" and 'no way" in 1963. Such a well written series that prides itself on being an authentic period piece should have someone on staff to catch these small but telling anachronisms, even if it requires a much older hire.

I generally agree with Camilia about Don_Jr's insightful comments. I was 8 going on 9 at the time of the JFK assassination and I think it's easy to assess that aspect of episode 12 through the prisms of one's personal politics and as well as one's tolerance for the mythical character the JFK administration and it's tragic ending has acquired over the past 46 years. Some fail to appreciate just how shocking and upsetting it was to most Americans in that relatively innocent time. At the same time, it's genuine here-and -now emotional impact has been transformed, in retrospect into something it wasn't-making it paradoxically both a bigger and a smaller an event than experienced at the time. Keep in mind much larger numbers of people claim to have voted for JFK in 1960 than actually did and many cherish the illusion that he would have withfdrawn from Vietnam.

Kudos to the viewer who pointed out anachronistic use of slang like "grab dinner"..."hang in there" and 'no way" in 1963. Such a well written series that prides itself on being an authentic period piece should have someone on staff to catch these small but telling anachronisms, even if it requires a much older hire.

@BlueRunner: Margaret Sterling was happy because it was her wedding day. Period. The fact that "no one" came is neither true nor was it the cause of her happiness. The sparse turnout was probably a disappointment, but she put on a happy face nevertheless... a sign of maturity is accepting what you cannot change.

Yes, Laurie, I found it intriguing that she was such a "stomp-out-of-the-room" brat with Mona after the earrings from Jane scene, and then within just a few days, acted so mature at her wedding, "accepting what she could not change" as you posted.

She seemed to grow up overnight.

I posted the interview notes I took last night at my blog.

http://www.elisesramblings.blogspot.com

Sad to say I asked Matt Weiner after when the new season would start and he said definitely not before August.
Hope you find the rest interesting, I loved the stuff about Grandpa Gene.
Enjoy

Enjoyed reading that, Elise....thanks for posting it.

And yes, that was really something (the Grandpa Gene part) I think I recall a thread from long ago on the Blog section of this site about an MM writer saying Betty's "pidgeon shooting scene" actually happened with his own mom. This "behind the scenes" stuff is so interesting!

Thanks again!

#1Dad: Yes, rent seasons one and two....you will love them. Or invest in them and buy....you won't be sorry!!

I wanted to say I appreciate your comment on how realistic it was to have the grownups cry after the assassination, and not the children. I was 8, and I didn't cry....I was shocked, but I really didn't understand how such a thing could happen. My 16 year old brother did cry, as did my parents. Just one of those details that the writers captured perfectly.

Hobo: I think I just saw Betty's father Gene in a commercial, but it went so fast I couldn't catch what the product was. He was talking to his "son."

I would like to comment on this post....By fullprofessor on November 3, 2009 7:43 PM
Today's GradSem discussion was far-ranging and heated. Our students expressed widely diverging sentiments on many issues, but they almost universally despise Betty.

Allison, normally a reserved young lady, was unusually vocal. "Betty makes everyone retch. I picture that sow flopped in the front seat of her gas-guzzling land boat, head against the drivers door, left foot atop the glove compartment, right leg over the passenger seat, the way she's been 'making love' since puberty. She snaps impatiently, 'C'mon Henry, let's see what you got. I wanta get this over with.' And all the time she has that standard sullen, put-out sulk on her hard middle-aged countenance." In the plain English of 1963, Allison declares that Betty is "a lousy lay, a manny-girl."

Other students decried "all that fatuous Camelot hand-wringing," as Rolf so aptly put it. They saw right through the cheap device of trying to tap into an "imaginary zeitgeist." Rolf continued, "I'm offended by the transparent efforts to suck emotion for any Kennedy crapbag. My sympathies lie with Marilyn Monroe, Mary Jo Kopechne, Karen Gray and their many other victims." His comments drew spontaneous applause.

Does any one else find it odd that 20 something grad students are commenting on a show that is set in a time period 50 years ago.What class is this. Marketing? Mad Men would be totally irrelevant to these people. Advertising has done a 360 in the last 10 years. Hell, it's been spun on it's head and flipped over twice! Mad Men would only be a history lesson and not much of one anyway. The people making such scathing remarks about a woman/wife/mother of the sixties and the Kennedy era are just observers of a tv show and weren't participants of the time. They have no understanding or compassion for people born and raised during and after WWII. The young people of today are so different, so worldly, so old to be so young. The internet brings the whole world, good and bad, into their lives 24/7. The world of the 60's is totally unrecognizable to them. And good riddance. The sexist men, the degrading "female" jobs, the "good" wives. But the more things change, the more they remain the same. Stay on your toes young people and a glance over your shoulder once in a while might be a good thing. And as an aside to fullprofesser., these people are paying you to actually teach them something. Your discussion of a tv show that is so irrelevant to your students lives is a waste of time. They seem to hold nothing but disdain for the show.

@: racy...
I apologize to you for a comment I made on the most recent "Memo to Matt..." Unfortunately, I didn't get that you intended it to be a joke. After seeing it the previous three times and reading the responses, when the fourth one appeared, it hit my last nerve. Please accept my sincere apology for being rude - that's really not my style. You do come up with interesting things to do when we get to the end of the week and I hope you'll continue doing that.

Karenmom, Dr. Patel and I are disappointed that you harbor such bristling animosity toward the students in our GradSem. They are a more diverse group than you appear to assume, ranging in age from mid-20s to late 40s. Their geographic, socioeconomic and ethnic backgrounds -- as well as their undergraduate degrees -- also vary widely. What they do hold in common is that they are the best and the brightest -- far too bright to be gulled by the implicit whining about "sexist men," "degrading 'female' jobs," "'good' wives," etc. They agree with you 100%, however, that the more things change the more they stay the same. Many are clearly coming to feel that the early 60s was a Golden Age for our society when, as one put it, "men were men and women were women and everybody liked it that way. Those women were authentic WOMEN -- feminine, well-groomed, carefully attired, soft-spoken and never aspiring to manhood for themselves." It is also incorrect to assume that our students hold the show in disdain. Indeed, they strongly revile certain characters, most vehemently the caricature Betty. But they also like, respect and identify with others, most of all the kindly and appealing Suzanne.

FP- I was curious....What course of study does Mad Men fit into? When I referenced "female" jobs, sexist men" etc. I was referring to the 60's. That's a big part of the Mad Men story. It sounds as if you are the one who really misses the old days when women were well groomed,soft spoken and didn't aspire to "manly" things. Suzanne knowingly started an affair with a married man. She knew his wife and taught his child. She had no regard for that family's feelings or future. What is so kind about that?

@Hobocode-- are you trying to get rid of me with your "via con Dios"? ;-)

I've been busy lately with relatives visiting, and got behind on the blog. Missed Sunday's episode because we went to see Patty Loveless, so I watched later in the week. By then, nearly every comment I would've made seemed redundant.

In spite of the missing members here, I hope you will continue to post, since I've really enjoyed talking with you about music, and I like the Brooklyn perspective you contribute, as well as your sense of humor. Besides, I think we're the only ones here who were born in '52!

@Sixties Girl-- your comments are right in line with my own thoughts regarding a "narcissistic mother". I think there was a reason why so many women attempted to be more of an "earth mother" during the seventies! Some think of this attitude as over-indulgent parenting, but I see it as a natural outcome of the kind of self-absorbed, pampered motherhood familiar to so many of us born in the fifties.

It's funny how all those labor-saving devices freed up suburban mothers so they could read magazines, play bridge and talk on the phone! They really never knew there was anything missing in the way they were parenting. Their own mothers were so busy with back-breaking chores, there never was any question of playing with the kids or having meaningful discussions. Then, all of a sudden, there was TIME, but no knowledge or understanding of how to use it to benefit the family psyche.

Can you tell I've done some work on my own mommy issues? ;-)

@Thistimegetitright-- I hear ya! Yours is the first male voice we've heard regarding Bobby's lack of physical affection from his parents. Breaks my heart sometimes, it's so obvious, and so like how my husband was raised. His parents loved him, but hardly ever were physically demonstrative. I think you're right about the reasons why. And women were told not to baby their sons, if they broke with the traditional "make a man of him" and offered warmth or sympathy or spent too much time with their little boys.

I'm reminded of June Cleaver asking her husband for advice on how to raise Wally and Beaver. She admitted to being clueless as to how to proceed. People make fun of that show for being too white-bread and innocent, but Ward Cleaver was actually pretty progressive compared to many fathers of that time. He took time to listen to the kids' reasoning and never mocked them, even when they did "dumb stuff".

@fifty-two: I'm so glad you were busy with life this week and that's the reason you haven't been here. I was afraid you'd left the forum. I'm so glad to see your post.

Thanks for those kind words, Bipolarbear! I guess there must be several MIA madmembers, then? It's a shame they were so upset about this site that they needed to split off.

That happened to a baseball forum I used to participate in, but after the first breaking away, there were even more splits to come until everyone was blown to the four winds and we all lost touch. We'd been pretty close, too, meeting for games and sharing several births, weddings, graduations, retirements, promotions and sadly, two deaths. While I'm not expecting that same kind of interaction here, I'm hoping a group disintegration doesn't occur, though most of us probably WILL fade away during the off-season, to return in July or August. (If AMC is still offering a talk site by then!)

Anyway, the closer we get to the holidays, the more I get involved in crafts, visits and various outings so if you don't see me posting, it won't be because I found a new site.

Good night, all! Or as they say in the English nursery song--

"Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
And here comes a chopper to chop off your head!"

"What exactly is the problem between Don and Roger?"

All the problems a previous poster mentioned. :) But I think the final nail in the coffin was Roger siding with Cooper and the Brits in forcing Don to sign a contract. Don and Roger have always been kinda on the same immature, boys'-nights-out, freedom-loving wavelength--partners-in-crime, as it were. So, for Roger to seize that freedom (Jane; lots of buyout money and no responsibilities) for himself but lock Don in to virtual slavery (suburban life, major responsibility for Sterling-Cooper's continued welfare) was an unforgivable betrayal as far as Don was concerned.

"Many are clearly coming to feel that the early 60s was a Golden Age for our society when, as one put it, "men were men and women were women and everybody liked it that way. Those women were authentic WOMEN -- feminine, well-groomed, carefully attired, soft-spoken and never aspiring to manhood for themselves."

Then your students aren't watching MM very carefully. And shouldn't the "best and the brightest" know their history--especially why the 60's were only a Golden Age for a few--way better?

By Laurie B. on November 5, 2009 5:52 PM
@BlueRunner: Margaret Sterling was happy because it was her wedding day. Period. The fact that "no one" came is neither true nor was it the cause of her happiness. The sparse turnout was probably a disappointment, but she put on a happy face nevertheless... a sign of maturity is accepting what you cannot change.
Really?
I realize people acted differently then unlike now a days (bridezilla comes to mind),but I feel like she was relived. She said many times that the people invited were people she didn't even know anyways.Maturity? When did that happen over night? As I recall she was acting very immature in the opening scene. I don't know that's just how I saw it.

#1dad welcome - you'll have lots of fun this off season watching season 1 & 2.

trolls don't really bother me - i can never read every post anyway, usually only have time to skim, unless the kids are sleeping - so i just skip over their stuff.

planning a season finale party for my husband and I, 60's inspired drinks and food. any suggestions???

was thinking fondue but not sure if that was more the seventies than sixties?

Blue Runner -
I think both you and Laurie B are right. Margaret (Sterling) Hargrove, all of nineteen years old, twenty max, was happy and relieved. Most of the invitees were friends of either her or Brooks' parents, not the kids she and Brooks knew. She might have seen them before but... who cares? Not her. Mom and Dad were there, not snarling at one another and Jane was out of sight, in the kitchen watching TV. Could it get any better? Okay, maybe Jane could get plastered and embarrass herself after giving all that "grown-up" advice.

Not like she really wanted a third Chip 'n Dip set or set of table service anyway. Although a Kitchen Maid mixer would look good in her new kitchen.

There's been some disagreement on the scene when Don get's home and finds the kids watching TV about the assassination, then Betty comes in and Don comforts her and then asks why they are watching. She is incensed, asking if she should hide it from them.

Some think Betty was right, some Don. Here is my take, from both being a 6 year old at that time, as well as being a father of two when 9/11 happened. Betty was right AND wrong. Don was wrong THEN right.

Betty was right in that there was no way that it could be kept from the kids. With friends, at school, they would hear about it. If their parents kept it from them at home, they would just feel more insecure. BUT she was wrong in the fact that no matter her own feelings, she could not as an adult put them aside and be there for the kids. She left them alone to deal with what was something they were unprepared to understand. They had no context.

Don was wrong when he implied that this should be kept from them. He went as far as to tell them to turn it off. But they didn't, and he realized it was too late to put the Genie back in the bottle, that he couldn't anyway. So he then sat down with them, and answered their questions. He gave them the help they needed to make peace with what they were seeing and hearing.

My father told me when Kennedy was assassinated almost the same thing Don told his kids here. He reassured me that sure, there were consequences and emotions to go through, but we'd be okay. It was what I needed to hear.

I sat with my sons during 9/11, and we watched together. And I tried to reassure them, certainly many things had changed and I couldn't tell them all the ways it would be different. But we would be fine...and we were. Different...changed...but okay.

Brooks may return the chip and dip and get himself a rifle. Is there room at SC for another junior exec? I am surprised Roger and Mona had only one child. I thought the affluent families in the 60's were larger. Roger is my favorite MM character, he gets the best lines and his sense of humor is just like mine. Of course Roger and Joan are like so many folks that work together, they spend more time than they do with their spouse, now when I see someone with one of those WWJD bracelets, I think what would JOAN do. Christina is the perfect actress for that part, I hope this series is a springboard for her career. I have to admit, I adore the more curvier female figure much more than the current anorexics that hollywood loves. I miss Sal, he was the best dressed of all the MM characters. I think he will resurface at the agency that buys SC. Oh well, its 10:00, I need to finish up around her so I can cut out early for the weekend.

Thank you for your interest in our GradSem, Karenmom. Participants are Master's and Doctoral candidates in a broad spectrum of disciplines. (We also have three on Post-Doctoral Fellowships.) Discussions focus on selected societal issues and their implications and nuances. Mad Men has proven to be an excellent topic assignment because the producers and writers endeavor to present the zeitgeist of the early 1960s. They revile Betty precisely because they see her (as the producers intend) as a forerunner of today's neurotic, morose, butchy, emotionally unstable, self-loathing, man-hating harridans. As one participant, the irrepressable D/Thommas, observed, "Dat hoe bees lak she con-stop-paid alls da time. She bee need a in-omma." On the other hand, Suzanne is our students' dream girl because she is a graduate of a good college, a successful career woman in a traditional woman's job, poised, happy, gloriously feminine and exhuberantly heterosexual. In summary, our students view Betty as the personification of everything that's wrong with American "womyns" today, while Suzanne represents the standard of authentic female perfection which has virtually disappeared into the mists of time. This is, of course, a tribute to the actresses playing both characters.

Margrets Wedding-
I was married a week and a half after 9/11, and I do think it put things in perspective for me. I really didn't care about the details of the wedding or honeymoon(which had to be completely replanned, as we were suppose to go to europe) I sent out an email to all the out of town guest telling them I understood if they chose not to put their entire family in a plane to come to my wedding, and I meant it. I think when something that catastrophic happens you're just grateful for the love in your life, and triviality goes out the window.

ritt1: Thanks for the post on the Kahiki restraurant in Columbus, OH. I remember it well as a popular East side stop. Sad to hear it's now closed but that theme interest has passed as that generation is 60+.

@J9mac-- If you can borrow a chafing dish from someone, use it to warm the Swedish meatballs and as the centerpiece of your buffet for a small group. If this is for a large group, you may want to use two. Swedish meatballs were a popular party dish in the fifties and sixties, kept hot in a dish heated by a little Sterno receptacle on the bottom. People gave each other silver ones for wedding gifts. Don't forget the toothpicks!

Pastel-colored molded salads made with Jello and mayonnaise were also big. Or tomato aspic. Chopped veg/tuna etc. served in scooped out whole tomatoes. Celery stuffed with cream cheese, pimento or chopped onion. Dips for veggies, fruit or chips. Coconut frosted cake. Tiki anything, heavy on the pineapple. Don't forget the little paper umbrellas! (Rasputin, I loved your essay on all things Tiki!)

If you have a used book store nearby, check out the old cookbooks, especially the vintage Better HOmes and Gardens or Betty Crocker ones in color. I have a favorite recipe from a 1959 BH&G for a pink tuna, cream cheese, green pepper, green olive and boiled egg Jello ring. But I wouldn't recommend it for actually eating. :-p

deering: Interesting take on Don/Roger anger issues. I'm not sure I agree that Don holds Roger responsible for forcing him to sign the contract. After all, Roger had gone down that road himself and Bert pulled the "do you want me to reveal your real identity" card. I think they were done before the contract.

What surprised me was a few eps ago when Don seemed so angry at Roger over his marriage to his former secretary. Almost like he was disappointed in Roger for breaking the cardinal rule of sleeping with the help is fine but never marry them. Almost as if Don was embarrassed by Roger falling for her.

@FullProf: I find it hard to believe that with such a diverse group such as yours, ALL your students revile Betty and ALL your students love Suzanne Farrell. Also, you spelled irrepressible wrong, which makes you suspect as well.

KarenMom: Love your comments!

This vintage 1963 cookbook I'm looking at has a recipe for creamed sweetbreads served in pastry patty shells. For a holiday brunch, no less! Sweetbreads are the glands from the throat or "body proper" of calves or lambs, including the hearts. They are strictly prepared fresh, and were (are?) considered a delicacy of the rich and served in the finest hotels. Was Mona's question about sweetbreads served at Margaret's wedding meant to imply that nobody wanted to eat them?

The 1959 book I mentioned above has a chapter called "Foreign Fare" which includes Sukiyaki, Chicken Chow Mein, mandarin orange salads, mild curry-flavored shrimp and rice, guacamole, and lasagna. All very daring and chic at the time. And a whole chapter on how to have a Polynesian luau, heavy on the coconut. All the so-called Mexican dishes are made with green bell peppers-- not a jalapeno in sight!

@J9mac-- If you want something simple, shrimp cocktail is a winner. Or perhaps a Waldorf salad? Both so popular in that day!

@rozsie: Don't even think about it. Obviously, my "satire" needs some work, since several people thought I was serious. I also thought when you guys saw it was ME starting this separate thread, you'd be saying, "Well, you can tell it's the end of the week, bc racy is pulling out the laughs now!"

@LaurieB.: "...you spelled irrepressible wrong..". I'm still ROTFLOL. You're too much.

Laurie B., of course I know how to spell "irrepressible." I simply have the sensitivity not to jump on every mistake made by my poor little secretary. She's touchy about her menial "traditional girlie" job, as well as any criticism (however constructively intended) of errors tracing to her community-college education. Being compassionate, however, I won't reveal that you chose to bash her spelling mistake. Insofar as our students' sentiments about Betty and Suzanne are concerned, I must remind you that GradSem participants are the best and the brightest. They "get it." The males all worship Suzanne as their "goddess," a term they use frequently when referring to her, while the females all strive to emulate Suzanne's feminine perfection. Males and females alike are repulsed by Betty's sour manner and anti-male malevolence. Mariska, a lovely young lady from Zanesville, Ohio, dubs Betty "the Pelosi Nightmare of 1963."

Lookit, racy, I wouldn't personally dispute your word. However, you should know that some here (I won't name names) suspect it wasn't "satire" at all, that you're just saying that because you got caught. "Otherwise," they ask, "why does she protest too much?" But, really, it's OK.

It's very disconcerting for me the level of anger at either Don/Dick or Betty. I certainly won't defend Don's infidelity or behavior, neither will I side with Betty.

Here is what we DON'T know. We know nothing about the 7 years between Don and Betty marrying, and the first episode of MM. We have no way of knowing what Don did to make Betty such a cold fish, so depressed except for emotional unavailability. That was common then anyway. But did that...or was it the reality of the dream of house in the suburbs and kids do Betty in? Did Don change first, did Betty, did they tit for tat each other into this predicament?

Every person brings a lot to their marriage. And then the two react as catalysts for each other. Sometimes the result is good...sometimes bad. We can say that Don and Betty were bad for each other, in different ways.

In marriage, people bring many facets to the relationship, but 3 that predominate are the ones we are most familiar with. Father, Son, Husband and Mother, Daughter, Wife. There is a balance here. Sometimes a man needs some mothering from his wife. Sometimes a woman needs fathering from her husband. But that role must not be the primary one. In this marriage, it has become the most important. Don became the father all the time, except for short episodes as husband. Betty became the daughter, all the time, except for short times when she was wife. NEVER did Don become the son and receive mothering from Betty. Yet, that is EXACTLY what Dick needs..indeed it is the one thing in his life he HAS TO HAVE. Dick has such a deficit of mothering that he cannot think of anything else.

Why important? Because Dick finds his mothering in Midge, and Rachel, and Suzanne. All brunettes, just like his mother. It is where Dick can finally find some comfort for a damaged psyche. And what Betty has not given to Don because either she cannot (her own psychic damage), or would not (her need for father predominates). When she finally sees Dick shattered by his brothers suicide, she gives some little bit of solace, but not much. Because she doesn't have that in her to give at this point. They have been one upping each other in their own emotional games to this point. When she sees the man she's shared her life with for 10 years, who is the father of her children, emotionally shattered...she pats him on the back. If may be all he deserves...but if we ALL got ONLY what we deserved where would we be?

Don truly loves Betty. Why would he have EVER invited a man that detested him (Betty's father) into his house for what could have been (but wasn't) a very long time except for a deep love and willingness to sacrifice for his wife. But he goes outside the marriage (compartmentalizes) because Dick needs a mother and Betty can't be that for him. She is barely that for her own children. And her childlikeness (I know, not a word, but what I needed to describe) and need for a father prohibits it.

Very clever of you, fullprofessor, to employ a popular executive practice of the '60s: blame it on the secretary. Nevertheless, it would be more accurate for you to refer to her as your "girl." For example, "Sorry I'm late for your meeting, Boss. My girl wrote the wrong time on my calendar."

@Full Of It: Well now I have to zing you for having your "lowly secretary" (your description, not mine) type your comments in a chat forum?!?!? Really!!?

As for your reference to Queen Pelosi, she's nightmare enough in our 21st century. No need to bring her back to 1963. As for Zaneyville Mariska, that may be a cute metaphor if there could be any semblance of recognition in a '63 Betty and a '09 Pelosi.

You're SO Full of it.

fifty two - thanks for the suggestions- looking forward to sunday but sad to see my favorite show go ....

JJ to host SNL - i think this weekend but i could be wrong. last season when JH hosted several of the MM crew made guest appearances and it was a real hoot. i'm sure they will be poking fun at bett's depressed - bipolar tendencies!

it was roger's dad that founded SC and maybe don thinks roger has had a bit too much handed to him - i always got the feeling don disliked roger for the same reasons he dislikes pete. i also think roger "parking in the wrong garage" and/or hitting on betts was the point on no return.

as for henry - i said in an above post, i think he may still be married. otherwise, why would his daughter seem so put out that her dad was looking at another woman? maybe mrs francis was to distraught over JFK's murder?

"JFK's murder?"

Ordinarily, Laurie B., we in academe are thick-skinned about being misquoted by members of the the general public such as yourself. However, I insist that the record show I never used the term "lowly secretary." That would have my girl running straight to the EEOC, just as she did that time when Dr. Guidotti accidentally stroked her buttock at the drinking fountain.

The title of this thread is as it pertains to Mad Men is: "The Grown Ups." The title certainly is a paradox to what has been happening here on the thread itself. People often chide the character of Betty Draper for being so infantile in her actions. Going on and on about her juvenile reactions and the fact that women in general are witless fools who don't know the sky from the ground, and other idiotic comments. Any mirrors around into which many of you can snatch a peek? According to more than a few posters, Betty is on average, mentally five years-old. Hmmmm.

Apparently someone at AMC or its subsidiary must be getting tired of the inanity here (If that's the case, I don't blame them one bit) because there is now a box in which to comment "anonymously." Nearly every public message board finally ends up like this one (in-fighting, insults, crudity, bad language, rudeness, name-calling, vitriol, and outright declarations of war; I think I even read of one that actually invites people to come on and hurl insults at one another); thus, it is no wonder this one has too. Though many here seem to think this an "elevated" subject, i.e., Madmen, this public board and its threads are like all the others: Starts out good, gets better, is fun for awhile, then the mold and the rot slowly begins to set in, and after while, the stench is so bad that gas masks and biohazard suits are needed. Finally, the entire festering mess explodes!

Simply because they can do so when there is no moderator (a public board almost never has one and it's clear why they don't), people act like the complete idiots that a majority of them truly are, trying to "out-zing" other posters, re-stating what other posters previously did - claiming the original thought was theirs all along, telling everyone they are Ph.D's and other noteworthy individuals (that one always gets me laughing, especially when they habitually massacre spelling, grammar and items of common knowledge), and desperately vie for the crown of Head Flamer/Baiter/Greatest Grammarian/Wisest Poster on the Web Awards, or some other worthless epitaph. Then there are those who race around the Web looking for facts and figures relating to the subject being discussed, so they can quickly post them and appear as though they are fountainheads of vast amounts of useless information. They are fountainheads but not of information.

@fifty-two

Yes, regarding which "foreign" foods were considered chic and daring, I remember how, in the 60's, our going to Shakey's Pizza Parlor in San Antonio was considered a real "step out" of the usual fare, pizza (sometimes called "pizza pie") still being a novel food for many Amricans--- especially in South Texas.

SHAKEY'S was a fully immersive "environment" in those days... One sat indoors at communal wooden bench-tables, warm stained-glass panels all around.... Lights were always low, with candles on the tables.... A five-piece Dixieland band played, while the lyrics to their songs were projected onto a big screen, featuring that "bouncing ball" so one could keep up with singing the song.

I'd think today's Americans would find this scene hokey by today's standards, but in the 60's, it was a thrilling family evening out.

Ras-- we had a Shakey's in Annandale but it didn't have a live band or bouncing ball screen. San Antonio was years ahead of Northern Virginia! (I love sing-alongs.)

All the men and boys I knew back then hated anything they couldn't recognize as "American" on the menu wherever we went in the fifties and sixties. "What's that?" was a common question. My dad was suspicious of casseroles and spaghetti/meatballs, for crying out loud!

I got a kick out of seeing Pete Campbell eating cold casserole right out of the Pyrex/Corningware baking dish.

Speaking of retro food, have you seen Amy Sedaris' book "I Like You"? A very funny and strangely informative read, with great photos of homemade stuff and vintage kitchenware.

Wow, posting anonymous now. How easy is it to troll with this!

@Anonymous: Very easy! And that is why AMC did this, I think. They are tired of all the in-fighting, the complaint emails, the whining, and all the rest. It's obvious why AMC did this (smart move on their part). Cuts way down on a lot of things. Now, Anonymous can fight with Anonymous, and bitingly retort to Anonymous, and call Anonymous a so-and-so, etc. Again, smart move on the part of AMC>

By allowing people to post "Anonymously" on the Mad Men forum, AMC will have wisely cut down on all the in-fighting, back-biting, nasty spats that go 'round in circles, etc. After all, how much "fun" will it really be for those acid-tonged devils who love the game of one-upsmanship to retort to "Anonymous" with all of their flaming, baiting, insults, crude remarks, imbecilic remarks and other stupid comments that reverberate here? Not really as much "fun" as reaming some named poster, even though the named-poster is nothing more than a mere pseudonym on a board. Soon, there will be a great many "Anonymous" here. Some bright person at AMC obviously decided enough was enough and cleverly brought back the "Anonymous" form of posting.

Looking forward to episode 13 of Mad Men, the season finale. I'll bet those who deal with these message boards at AMC are happy it's the last episode of the season!

Anonymous, you are right on!

Dear all: I wonder if you also noticed how Betty's appearance has changed over the past few episodes. She was astoundingly beautiful in "The Souvenir," and it matched her character at that point: in control of something--her beauty, sexually alluring, and (my God) she spoke Italian! Wow!

But look how she's changed. The make up artists have given her less and and less makeup. In some scenes, she has been crying--no makeup understandable there. At other times, though, it seems more subtle: little makeup, for example, and kind of shabby dress, when she made her trip to Albany to confront Henry. I think she would normally have wanted to put on her best face. And then in the past 2 episodes, it has become more strikingly apparent that the lack of care with her appearance correlates with her depression. (Her look has always been immaculate.) Another way of looking at it, from a dramaturgical point of view, is to say that the directors are gradually stripping off her veneer. What view of her character does it reveal, do you think?

@theprof: Betty is a beautiful woman with or without makeup. She looked great in her GQ shoot too.

Isn't it nice that when you post "anonymously" no one really knows who's who, and the trolls can hurl their insults all day long but they don't really know which "Anonymous" they are hurling at? Bravo AMC!

Full prof, thanks for the comments you posted. They made me laugh. Can't imagine a whole group of students holding up Ms. Farrell as a paragon of female virtue. Last time I checked virtuous women did NOT have affairs with married men.

With Episode 13 imminent, viewers will be well advised to eschew trivial details and open their minds to the truly relevant issues, such as which once well-known actress who received an Oscar nomination in [YEAR] is about to join the cast as Dick's birth mother.

I find it very interesting, too, that so many here skewer Betty. I find that her character is actually most consistent with that of most women at that time. I think so many skewer Betty and extol Joan because they really want to be more independent like Joan, and don't like to admit to qualities that they possess. which are closer to Betty's.
I enjoy both characters and think they're both played marvelously by the respective actresses. Of the 2, I prefer Betty. I've known far too many Joans through the years in business. They are jealous, vindictive and bitter most of the time.Sisterhood is not part of their lexicon.

@Anonymous you are my favorite poster ever. your wit and intelligence are matched only by your incredibly compassionate insights, into all matters large and small. Kudo's to you. Of course this is meant for the "Real Anonymous", not the pasty scum sycophants cruising in his or her wake.

I like posting this way :o)

C'mon loser kaffe klatch girls, make a complaint about anonymous haha

@Anonymous you are the best poster ever

fifty-two-you sound like you came from a very sophisticated family.

I don't like anonymous monty though...he's yucky.

Anon @ 6.22 PM: The problem on this site was caused by the kaffe klatch hags who believed they owned this comments section and that they somehow had the right to ban any comment that didn't fit into their silly little world view. They are typical American females who brow beat their husbands and were spoiled by their parents and are deluded enough to believe they could do this to everyone.We in the men's movement intend to destroy them and turn the clock back to a more sane time.Men will no longer stand for abuse whether it's from family courts, criminal courts, females making false domestic violence, child abuse or rape complaints etc(95% are false) or anything we just plain don't like.We have THOUSANDS of websites now and after years of abuse MILLIONS of followers and it's time to cross the Rubicon.Now, it's no more Mister Niceguy :o)

I stand by what I stated back around episode 4. This show needs to be on twice a week.
Kublakhanymous

Don't be fooled by imitations. I think everyone knows my style.

And to prevent fraudulent posts I will put my unique signature at the bottom. If you have the right encoding you'll be able to see it.

阿尔法人

We in the men's movement intend to destroy them and turn the clock back to a more sane time.Men will no longer stand for abuse whether it's from family courts, criminal courts, females making false domestic violence, child abuse or rape complaints etc(95% are false) or anything we just plain don't like.

We plan to start raping women, so beware. You might as well just lie there and take it so we don't hurt you. Because we will. Feminists have made the world crazy. We men intend to take it back by force and violence if necessary.

You have been warned.

DEAREST ANONYMOUS:

HOW CLEVER AND FUN AND POST-POST MODERN YOU ARE. CONGRATULATE YOURSELF INFINITELY. CLOAK YOURSELF IN CALLOUS ILL-WILL AND SEE WHERE YOUR KARMA ENDS UP. AREN'T YOU SO PROUD OF YOURSELF. OBVIOUSLY. YOUR DOGMA SUX!

EQUALLY HATEFULLY,

FANCY NANCY!

(BRING IT ON DARLING; YOU ARE WRETCHED; AND YOUR MOTIVATION IS BIZARRE. THIS IS A SITE WHEREIN ITS POSTERS LOVE AND ADMIRE S'THING. YOU MUST SQUIRM IN AGONY, DAILY, BECAUSE YOU ARE SO UGLY AND ENVIOUS OF A BRILLIANT AND LOVELY ENTERPRISE YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY COMPREHEND. SHAME ON YOU!!!)

@hobocode52: I agree. Needs to be on twice a week and run for 25 years, at least. (I had to change that from 15 years, for fear someone would take this seriously).

And the rat takes the bait. Yes folks, we have a winner. Winner of the horse's arse award who doesn't know that when she copies and pastes that it is held on her computer clipboard. Now there is a nasty little worm there eating into your files. You will discover that your pc will be speeding up and doing trillions of calculations per second. Then the worm will turn off the cooling fan and your processor will burn up within 3 minutes. Anyone else want to try or thinks she is smarter than Monty? The Chinese symbols were a sure warning but the dumb broard took it anyway. Still think females aren't stupid?

阿尔法人

This is obviously the only way you have of venting your many obvious frustrations, Mounted, er Monty. When did you have your operation?

Copying and pasting a few text characters can't give anyone a worm. That's technically impossible. The troll is just trying to scare us and is bluffing. Everyone here is smarter than Monty. A hamster is smarter than Monty. A stalk of broccoli is smarter than Monty. Way to go advertising that you plan to rape women, psychopath. Your local police are probably on the way to your door already.

@Anonymous Monty and Monty: Oh, YOU'RE the Chinese kid born without a penis and with those dried peas rattling around his cranium that I read about in the news some years ago. I was wondering who that was. Thanks for clarifying it for us.
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@For Hobocode: Guess you meant what you said about the first "Anonymous" Poster (thanks), or you were just being sarcastic. If not, sorry but it sure is hard to tell on this board. And now this little spook is gonna have another little spooky drink. Wink.

tick tock tick tock I named it for Armistice Day and if you had actually attended school, a real school not some wacko feminist school, you will know what 11 11 11 means.
You thought that you were going to come on here and do what you do in real life and be abusive to men but I can tell you that we are simply going to smack you down and put you back in your rightful natural place. You won't even have a forum for your feminist hate speech except perhaps over the backyard clothesline.
And nobody is trying to scare anyone on here. Do you feel scared? No one was as dumb or thought she was a wisearse like you trying to put my name on a fake comment so it is only YOU who will get what she deserves. I suggest removing your harddrive and replacing it and then explaining to your daddy or hubby why you have to do it and how you were on his pc and how your impertinence got you into trouble.