I love the guy, I truly do. But from now on Trudy should hire an elderly, strict german nanny to watch him when she is gone!

I talked about Pete on the episode thread...

What is his deal? Has he always wooed women this way, or has he just started this since he found out his "boys" are great swimmers?
My guess is that poor girl did not have birth control, and I doubt Pete offered any.

I'll repeat what I said on main thread. She gets pregnant, carries the baby, can't go back to Germany as an unwed mother, Pete tells Trudy some version of the truth, they adopt the baby.

TyraL - my thoughts exactly. my husband and i said trudy should've have dropped him off with carla. (poor carla) pete basically admitted to himself that he is lacking a moral center unless he is being supervised when he asked trudy to not leave hime alone.

60's child - that would solve the baby problem however, she strikes me as the type that might run home to her parents.

what does it mean when my favorite character of mad men practically raped someone?

I didn't see Pete as feeling guilty, but more afraid that he had been confronted by his neighbor. Also, I think it hit home with him that the girl didn't want it.

Hi Lucy!
Welcome to a fellow Peanuts fan! I think this is how Pete operates with women. The only exception must be Trudy.
That's why I wonder if he has always been this way, or is this a new for him?

@ 60's child - I really hope she's not pregnant because that would be too much in my opinion. Yes, sex has consequences, but must every unintended sexual encounter on this show lead to pregnancy?

As shady as that scene last night was, I have to believe that it's meant to be "ambiguous." I actually went and compared the descriptions in the AMC episode guide of what happened to Joan in "The Mountain King" and what happened to Gudrun in "Souvenir"...the former was described explicitly as an unwanted forceful encounter while the latter was not (even though there was emotional coercion) so I have to believe (or hope) that had Pete explicitly been told no, he would have backed off. More specifically, the cut of the shot of him kissing the au pair helps make it ambiguous. Given that this show hasn't backed away from showing rape before, it makes me wonder if we're supposed to think this encounter falls in some grey zone. Doesn't make what he did any less sketchy, just throwing that out there.

With respect to Trudy, I also thought it was interesting that she initially thought Pete's guilty look was due to seeing the kids. In a weird way, it might be - guilt over what happened with Peggy and wondering where THAT kid is. The thing with Trudy that I'm perplexed by is that she COULD walk away from her marriage. She has doting, wealthy parents (let's not forget that while Pete brings in the name, she brings in a substantial amount of money) who already aren't fond of Pete thanks to his unwillingness to adopt. If they found out their princess was being cheated on, I'm sure they'd be OK with her cutting Pete loose.

Hi giantsfan21!

You're right about the ambiguity (sp?) of the scene with Pete and the Au Pair. I came to the conclusion that Pete had sex with her because of the bedroom scene, and the neighbor coming to see Pete and reporting her emotional status, and letting Pete know that HE knows.

And, I agree with your post about Trudy. She could leave him in a NY minute, and be well cared for by her parents. For some reason she loves Pete, and stands by him, he is so lucky to have her.
As far as a possible pregnancy/adoption, I wouldn't put it past Pete to lie to Trudy and say the "poor girl" got in trouble and they could help her out by adopting the baby.
Just my humble opinions...

@martinimommy - I think it's possible that Pete could be feeling guilty for several reasons, some more noble than others. Definitely the neighbor calling him out is part of it, but I also think he genuinely did not get the position he had put that poor au pair in until the neighbor said anything about it. Seeing her again in the elevator reminds him of what he did (not just cheated on his wife but put some emotional pressure on a young, shy and lower-class woman to have sex with him). It's also interesting that Pete has gotten to this point in his marriage with Trudy where he is honest about his infidelities and failings (if she's not around, he is at risk) insofar as he can say things. He doesn't have the Don Draper secrecy suit, that's for sure. I don't want to sound like I'm defending Pete in all of this - that scene was really uncomfortable for me to watch - but I'd like to think that MW was using the whole thing as a commentary on Pete and Trudy's marriage, Pete's sense of entitlement (as he says in the little "inside Souvenir" video) and on male-female relations back in the 60s. One could certainly argue that the fact that the au pair told her employers what happened at all (risking presumably her position and certainly her reputation) suggests that it crossed a line, but since we never quite saw what transpired due to the way the scene was cut, I don't think we can be sure (in the same way that we can with Joan & Greg).

Trudy knows Pete's been a baaad boy. Just not how. But he feels guilty enough that he doesn't want to hop into bed with her as soon as she gets home. When he takes her hand at dinner and says he doesn't want her to leave him alone again, that means she's the mommy to keep him out of trouble.

I think the au pair used up the half box of tissues while only telling the husband and the wife was still away. If the wife was present, she might have called on Trudy and that could be really nasty. Instead the husband handled it, married man to married man, telling Pete if he wanted to mess around with a nanny, don't do it in their building.

Let's hope none of Pete's little swimmers got to the finish line and she's going to have a souvenir of that night.

@ giantsfan21: Very good points. That's why I enjoy coming here. You see the scene one way, then after reading other opinions, you gain so much more insight.

I would love to post more, but this site is running so slow!

@Trya L: I dunno. You see what happens when you put Pete together with a German nanny.

Just like Duck said, Pete is a baby. When he doesnt get what he wants, he pouts, drinks and gets it somehow. Wall Street and Main street are full of Pete's

Peter is a little creep and I hope his rich wife dumps him. She is a nice person and deserves better.

It bothers me how Peter gets drunk and goes after women and how he forced himself on that young German girl. And you talk about Joan's husband? Peter doesn't care if he a bout humiliating women. He wants what he wants when he wants it.

How I love when Roger torments that little creep. Roger enjoys it too.

I have always thought that Pete was a childish manipulator who wants what is denied and when caught runs away. (Father/mother/brother)

I could not believe that he forced himself on the au pair while sauced up (liquid courage) but REALLY couldn't believe that he would present himself to Trudy with this hang dog look that implied something happened but he lacked the courage to admit what. He was not sorry that he did it but that he was called out by the neighbor-with an inherent risk of Trudy learning about it without his "spin". Now any future risks of Trudy knowing the truth has been diminished. And to ask Trudy not to leave him alone smacked not only that he needed Trudy to mother him but to prove to her that she is needed in the relationship )pre Betty Friedan: "It is easier to live through someone else than to become complete yourself.")

He was disgusting with Peggy last season and gives a repeat performance.

I find myself leaving a comment and ask myself what happened to me? I don't get this involved in a TV show as if it were real people for goodness sake! Another great performance by all!

They did leave it a bit ambiguous . But I think Pete had intercourse with her and she was not a willing participant. That girl was a virgin and probably about 17. I certainly don't think she had any birth control. I'd definitely call it rape.

I already said what I think of Pete early on in the main thread, but in short, he shows many indications of being seriously sick and disturbed. Zero empathy for any fellow living beings. He's a great character, well-written, interesting, and gives me the creeps big-time. Sure it would be nice if he redeemed himself, and maybe it's possible, maybe someday, but I see no indication of this happening any time soon. Especially after the rape. Why'd he do it? He was bored.

When the description of this episode before it aired said "Pete helps a neighbor", I was both surprised and curious. Would Pete actually do a good deed for once? Then it just turned out to be standard dirty manipulation tactics to get into a girl's pants. He didn't really help her, he set her up.

NNT, well said. Completely agree on all points.

Chickie, you have some great insights as well. It struck me as significant when Pete asked Trudy not to go away without him again, and she was flattered and happy that he asked. I thought it was indicative of weakness. I feel really bad for Trudy. First she marries this guy she barely knows because of his Dyckman pedigree. Then she gives up on her dream of having children because Pete's too selfish and immature to consider adoption (although it's probably better for the world at large if these two don't raise any kids). Now she's expected to keep him on a short leash so he won't rape again. Like that's her job.

@NNT: I sink she said she vas 18 und had un boyfriend.

Bluegirl-- Yeah, Trudy was validated by Pete asking her to not vacation away from him, but now she doesn't get one either?

And I thought she got some revenge by feeding him salads, when we know he fantasizes about hunting and skinning his own red meat. Saltpeter? ;-)

LOL fifty-two! Great pun (saltpeter), ha! Yeah, he wasn't too excited about that dinner consisting of raw plants. Considering how Pete acted like a little kid alone in the apartment, Trudy probably also suspects that he didn't eat a single veggie or fruit while she was away. He probably survived on a combination of cereal, takeout, and TV dinners.

Hi everyone. (I just signed up.)

A few questions:

to everyone: Does Trudy know that she is the one who is infertile? I'd assumed that she did, but when she came home and told Pete that she wasn't mad about not having kids anymore it made me wonder if she meant adoption or if she was never told that Pete can have kids. (From past shows, I wouldn't be surprised if the doctors of that era had only told the husband the truth.)

@giantsfan21 - Who is MW? (kudos on using the au pairs name- I couldn't make out what she said.)
@liquorupfrontpokerintherear - Who was Duck talking to when he called Pete a baby? (Do you think that Duck doesn't value Pete? If so, why try to recruit him?)

Ock, I believe when Pete showed up for the lunch with Duck, Pete was surprised to see Peggy there, and he sort of threw a fit, I believe Duck said, stop being childish

At first I thought that Trudy had left Pete, but then remembered the whole vacation house thing.

I honestly thought he was just trying to be nice to that poor girl. And I don't believe she was exceptionally attractive or irresistible in a sexy way..that makes it even a little more creepy to me. It was pure urge and domination.

Is it just me or Pete don't handle his liquor too well?? Seems everyone else-even Don- is easier to handle or even funny when drunk, but Pete really goes off the deep end.

@ockraz - MW = matt weiner, I'm just too lazy to spell out his name each time :)

Interesting comments from everyone!

@NNT - We don't know that the girl is a virgin (she says she has a boyfriend so she might not be) or that she's underage (she looked young, but not much younger than Pete IMO). I've been thinking about this scene for awhile and I honestly do not think it was rape, although it was definitely in a gray area. Someone on the main episode thread (forget who, sorry!) who used to be a prosecutor said that what happened (based on what we saw and what the employer implied through his little chat with Pete) probably wouldn't be enough even today to be a criminal offense. Let me be clear: I'm not saying that what Pete did is ANY way OK, but I do think the scene was intentionally cut in an ambiguous way. MW says in the "Inside Mad Men" for this episode that this is about Pete's sense of entitlement, but what if the au pair had said no to the kiss or not let him into the bedroom, etc? The fact that this show has not shied away from showing rape before makes me think that MW wanted this scene to make us incredibly uncomfortable, but I don't think Pete is a rapist. Creepy, sleazy - absolutely.

Getting back to Pete and Trudy, one thing I'm wondering about is whether Pete has previously looked sad when kids are around...is it possible that in the past (not in this particular instance) he has been remorseful about his "no adoption" stand? I'm inclined to think that his "sadness" around kids is more to do with the loss of his kid with Peggy than any true sadness about an inability to have a family with Trudy. In the same "Inside Mad Men" feature, the actor who plays Pete says that Pete and Trudy have fallen back in love with each other this season, which I found surprising although I felt like maybe that explains his last line ("Don't go anywhere without me") more - he's truly dependent on Trudy, she makes him stable. One other thing I'm curious about - exactly what has Pete told Trudy re: his earlier infidelities? She obviously was familiar with that hangdog look and quickly caught on to what happened while she was away...does she know about Peggy or the model? Pete's major strength is that he's honest - he can't play the Don Draper game. Has he been more forthcoming with Trudy than Don has with Betty?

@bluegirl - I think the adoption issue was/is more complicated than that. Honestly, I sorta sympathized with Pete then - Trudy went too fast and she never explicitly got Pete to agree to it. He should have been more forthcoming about his issues having a child generally, but I think he would have warmed to the adoption issue without his mom's toxic presence and without Trudy rushing it.

@bluegirl: I agree with you that a large part of Trudy's attraction to Pete is his Dyckman heritage. Oh well, you know what they say,"Bad taste in hats. Bad taste in men."

@Zabadu: I saw her saying to Pete that she had a boyfriend as a way of keeping him at a distance. I guess that didn't work in this case.

@giantsfan21: Let's not argue over semantics of whether it was rape or not. The whole blogosphere is alight today with this topic. I do think it is fair to say she was coerced.

Here's my silly and totally tasteless prediction for the next episode. SC is having one of their office parties and Ken overhears Pete and Peggy discussing the fact that Peggy had a baby by Pete. Later on in the evening Ken is having a discussion with Pete. He tells him he knows about the baby. He says Pete shoud be grateful that he (Ken) doesn't tell Trudy. Then he tells Pete, "I know I put up a good front, but you know what I'd really like. I'd like to take your clothes off with my teeth and give you a go-round like I'm sure you've never had."

Yeah. That's how the au-pair felt.

NeverNotTasty: Excellent comment on how the au-pair probably felt.

@NNT: word, having read the debates I think we all agree that what Pete did was sleazy and wrong.

Just as a follow-up to the question of guilt because I re-watched the episode - I think Pete definitely feels guilty and it's genuine. When Trudy calls him into the room and asks how kept the place so clean, praising him as her little bachelor, I think he is thinking about what happened during his state of bachelorhood and how ugly it was. Then Trudy pulls him in for a make-out session and he starts to go along with it (and he easily could have just kept the pretense if he just wanted to forget about it or something) but pulls back and continues to have that hangdog expression. She first interprets it as being due to the kids (whole other can of worms Trudy...) and then realizes that he cheated on her and stomps off. Later at dinner *SHE* is the one trying to pretend it never happened and to his credit Pete stops her chattering to flat out say, please don't leave me alone again. Yes, he's essentially asking for a babysitter because he can't trust himself without her but I think he's realized that he did something wrong and he's trying to find a solution to the problem. He's not trying to shift blame on her for being absent and "enabling" his behavior. He actually looks scared while he waits for Trudy's response to his (basically) apology - he's not sure what she'll say. Pete has rare moments of self-awareness but I think this might have been the most overt scene in terms of him realizing how messed up he is. And even with the apology, Trudy could conceivably find out that he cheated with the next door neighbor's au pair so it's not like Pete is actually protecting himself here.

Moral of the story: keep Pete away from alcohol...bad things happen otherwise. Funny because he went on a rant about alcoholics last season re: Freddie Rumsen, so you'd think he'd have been more aware of his own problems with the bottle....

Real rape is very rare and it usually happens during wars. If the girl didn't want Pete's attention she wouldn't have even opened the door when she looked through the spy hole to see who it was. Girls are not so naive even if they are 12. And a girl crying can mean anything. She may have been crying for joy that some man paid any attention to her because she was probably lonely without a man and just taking care of the family and children all the time. She rarely got to go out except for the time she borrowed the dress and spilt wine on it. And why would she even wear a nice dress except to attact a man so she could have sex?

Pete is the master
Trudy is Pete's slave
Typical way men acted in the late sixties.
Wifes were their mothers
concubines were their girls on the sides.
Marriage of the time. Pete almost got caught, hence his "blaming it on Trudy" never to leave
him again.

Respectfully,
Sexy-tary

I thought he might confess about the peggy pete office affair and the resulting baby, it didn't happen just yet, it also sounds like from their exchange that he has neither told her about his swimmers being fine and it seems as though she is in fact barren, is he keeping it from here for her protection?? i think season 2 established hes able too father children but she is essentially doomed too childlessness, and once again why do they not adopt?? he might understand "orphaned" Don better if he raised a child that had no family. Also wasn't birds and bees talk for Sally the first time a hoot??

I find it ironic how hard everyone is working to absolve Pete of his crime. I'm sorry, but yes, it was a form of rape. A very old form. It's the one where the entitled rich guy pushes himself on the servant girl. Also, please, please, please, folks. It's 1963. You really have to keep that in mind. These were the days when many a girl who'd been raped would come into court and the guy would say, "Well, look at what she was wearing. She was asking for it!" and the court would vote in the man's favor. The sexist way of thinking of that time put the onus on the girl/victim more times than not, she lured the man on, she wanted it.

It's ironic that many of you are using some of the same arguments here to excuse Pete. "She opened the door!" "She's not a virgin--" "She didn't say 'no'..." (the argument that "No means NO!" wasn't accepted until the 70's. In the 60's a man could argue that the girl didn't mean "no" even if she said it.) In 1963 (as well as now) men did think themselves "entitled" to sex in certain circumstances. It's awful and nasty and evil and we don't like it. But that's history for you. There is no excuse for it except that is the way it was--and had been for a long time.

Pete's aim was to bed the girl from the first. And he believed he was entitled to it for three reasons: First, he goes to all that trouble with the dress and she lets him help her--Pete would say she had to know the price for that help, and if she didn't want to pay it, she should have confessed her crime to her employer. Second, she's a servant. and he's a rich man, she hasn't any right to refuse him. Third, she's a foreigner--German. And that still puts her in the "lost the war" category. America and American dollars rule Europe at this point, especially the defeated countries like Germany and Italy. Americans get what they want.

No, she wasn't that young. And she might not have been a virgin. That didn't matter with Joan, why should it with her? She opened the door--but she had to. Pete has all the power. He knows about the dress, and he's a rich American. A neighbor. If he complains about her, she's out. And it's likely that she needs this job and needs the money she's sending home to her family. She could not risk him pounding on the door, making a scene, getting all the neighbors talking and maybe losing her this job. So she lets him in, and she surrenders. She doesn't say "no." And he takes what he feels he's entitled to. But that doesn't mean she wanted it.

What's most interesting is how you all missed the most important thing of all. How her employer reacted. She confessed to him what happened. Did he call the police on Pete? No. Did he storm in, outraged that Pete had hurt and abused the girl? Nope. Did he even yell at Pete for what he did? Nope. He doesn't even try to tell Pete not to do that to Nannies. He just doesn't want Pete messing with his nanny. Pete had inconvenienced him. And that is what Pete apologizes for.

That's 1963 for you.

@ Thirteen - I am not trying to condone what Pete did or absolve him of anything. And I absolutely agree - whether she was young or a virgin is irrelevant (also, @ anya rape DOES NOT just happen during war nor is it that rare, sadly), rape/assault/whatever you want to call it is is what it is - wrong. To some degree, the whole "Did Pete rape her or not?" is becoming semantic/legal in nature and while I think that's worth discussing, I think everyone (I HOPE everyone) agrees that what he did was wrong. The fact remains that we don't know (for lack of a better phrase) exactly what happened. Matt Weiner & co. intentionally cut the scene to make it ambiguous, regardless of how uncomfortable we were before the cut.

I also agree with you that the scene with the neighbor was gross (Weiner said it's possibly the creepiest scene this show has done). Since I started the thread to ask more about Pete specifically, maybe that's why it hasn't come up.

So where do we go from here? I'm actually willing to bet that the nanny will not become a recurring character (I see her more like Dennis Hobart than anyone else) so what does this mean for Pete and Pete/Trudy? The fact remains that Pete DID seem disturbed by what he had done and what kind of person he was in Trudy's absence. Now, is asking Trudy to never go on another vacation without him really taking responsibility? Maybe not, but I think he recognizes he has a problem and he's searching for a solution and this is one option. I also genuinely think he won't do this again. His apology to the neighbor was for the "inconvenience" but he looked stricken even after the neighbor left. Is Pete redeemable? It seemed to me that by the end of the episode we're meant to think, yes maybe.

Anya, your definition of rape is too narrow. This was rape even if Gundrun opened the door and submitted to Pete so that there he did not physically force himself on her. She had made clear she was not interested in Pete's advances, and she opened the door because Pete ad been nice to her and not to have done so would have seemed ungrateful. Whether Pete could be successfully prosecuted even now, but certainly back in 1963 is another question.

Thirteen: I wish you wouldn't use the words "all" and "everyone" when addressing those people who are trying to absolve Pete. Many of us, myself included, do not fall into this category as we have clearly stated, on this thread and elsewhere, that we consider him guilty of a rape, even if it is not prosecutable.

And if we did not mention the neighbour, maybe it's because we have seen that commented upon in other forums and internet reviews of this episode, so we don't feel like we need to belabor that point.

But, hey thanks so much for grading our papers. I guess we'll all have to work that much harder so that we don't get the "could do better" comment on our future homework.

Thirteen: Your comment was awesome. It's everything I was thinking but I felt too emotional on the subject to put it into words.
Thanks for doing it for me.

Anya: Are you trying to make some kind of sick joke? If not, I sure as hell am glad that my daughters and I don't live in your country.

Trotsky: The only reason you don't understand what is normal man/woman conduct is that you have been brainwashed by your media.We see things like Sex in the City and other US junk culture TV but we don't really watch TV except rarely. The Russian educational system is the best in the world and even people living in little isolated villages are educated. As I said, my father is a wealthy businessman and has a townhouse in Manhattan but this city reminds me of a small provincial town where the people believe they are the centre of the world and they all think the same.They know nothing but what to tell everyone else how life should be. We got rid of the foreign communists who took over our country but you elected this African communist. If you read anything other than the tabloids you would know that even people like Hugo Chavez and Castro say that Obama is too leftist and they're communists!

Anya is a disguised troll pretending to be a young Russian student. I am sure that you can all see that she or he is really one of the old baiters who is afraid to come on as themselves. Best not to respond to it, it's a fraud playing like the baby that it is.

I was surprised to see how small Vincent K. is without his business suit! It really played into his character's boyishness of watching kids' TV and regressing without his wife around.

Remember when he slept with the model he picked up in the elevator? Returning home, he stares at himself guiltily in the mirror.
Well, it's one thing to feel guilt, but is it enough to make a change in behavior???

I'm afraid that's a defect in a man's psyche to feel guilt over something he shouldn't.It is perfectly natural for a man to have sex with multiple females.Law of Nature. This guilt is probably the result of brainwashing from his mother and the female teachers he had at a young age.You'll never find females feeling remorse for being sluts except if their girlfriends find out and she loses status, the most important thing to a female. Betty didn't care when she picked up a complete stranger to avenge the imagined wrongs of her husband and in fact got more satisfaction on getting over and lying to her husband then from having the sex. The only reason that females get upset about their husband having sex with another woman is because they're afraid that some of "her" resourses will go to the other woman not from any sense of morality which females don't have and is a male invention.As a female misogynist and lesbian I know exactly how the female mind works.

http://malechauvinist.blogspot.com/

I also think the scene was intentionally cut in an ambiguous way. Either way it's disgusting.

I actually think that it is possible that she liked Pete. In the 1960's we had many Army and Air Force installations in Germany. Many German women met and married American soldiers. Gudrun may have thought that Pete was serious about her. That could have accounted for the tears.

I'm not absolving Peter. He clearly felt guilty about his actions. However, in the 1960's, Germany was still a poor country as a result of WWII. Pete is a rich New Yorker. He might have seemed like a "good catch". This could account for the ambiguity of the scene.

Hey Monty! So now you're Anya? (get some therapy)

@DeepDish-Anya & Bertha & Jean M are sooo obvious. Read their other posts, it's ridiculous!

Anya-The Statue of Liberty should have looked big to you since you were probably on your knees. I agree w/u that NYC is dull~to poor vagrants like you.

I like the way the show did a slow reveal with Pete. Here we thought it was Don with all the main back-story and secrets yet the show proves how that is the case with most people. But, Pete's character is a big surprise in how very sinister he really is. That's the kind of writing that separates ordinary from great.
I really didn't think Pete was going to be this type of person because at first he came off as being almost timid. In retrospect, it is clear that his questionable approach on Peggy the eve of his wedding was a pattern of his.
I'm so glad how Peggy handled it once she realized more about Pete. I'm also glad she told him not only that she was pregnant, could have used that to have him and didn't want him and that she gave the baby away. It was the only way Peggy could come to some conclusion for herself and to put Pete in his place.

Aw, Monte. Your feelings are hurt, poor baby!

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start swinging

Anyone else catch the irony of Pete complaining about people carrying around secrets that affect the innocent even as Trudy stands there, uber-preggers in that Ginault watch store?Ginault watch company (www.ginault.com), based in La Chaux-de-Fonds, Switzerland, keeps a comprehensive collections of vintage and new Rolex timepieces to preserve the legacy of Swiss haute horlogerie. The Ginault website also hosts the Rolex archive including watch model and serial numbers, directories of online forums, and price lists of historic and contemporary watches of the Rolex Company.

I mean, that's what I call being totally blind to ones own hypocrisy. Pete gazing at a woman that pregnant, yet being so honestly outraged that someone else's secret is messing up his life. One would think Trudy looking like that might remind him that he has his own secret that he'd rather others never knew, and how much it would mess up his life and those of innocents like Trudy and that baby if it was known.