Have Mad Men writers lost their mojo? Everything that was interesting about the Mad Men characters has changed. Here's what I thought was interesting about some of the characters:
Campbell - A pretentious brat with no sense of respect for other people. His motivation is short term political gain and personal amusement. But what is perhaps most interesting is that he is psychologically unstable (think Christian Bale in American Psycho). He exchanged a wedding gift for a rifle and pointed it at passing secretaries.
Betts - Representative of housewives who were treated as second class citizens by their husbands. This combined with the insecurities of a model manifests itself as childish dark behavior like when she shot at the neighbors pigeons with a pellet gun.
Roger - A witty smooth talking free wheeling womanizer high roller sugar daddy. Fun!
Peggy - Representative of women who suffered discrimination in the workplace.
Joan - A voluptuous babe. The J-Lo of Sterling Cooper.
So what happened to these characters in season 3?
Campbell - Peggy told Campbell she gave away their lust child. Of course the kid is of absolutely no interest to him but I would think he would feel slighted by Peggy enough so that it would provoke some form of evil behavior. But Campbell has been acting like a normal person. That's not right.
Betts - I realize Don is in the dog house but she's been wearing the pants a little too much for a 60's house wife. I want realism and not a rewrite of history. Either that or burn her bra.
Roger - As the epitome of bad behavior at work and at home, Roger has been a bit of a wimp lately. I liked Roger the sleazy drunken whore a lot better.
Peggy - Workplace discrimination against women in the 60's was at it's peak. I like that Don helps her break out but she's been doing too well lately. In season 3 she's correctly rebuffed by Don for greedily trying to get on the Hilton account. Peggy should be bumping her head on the glass ceiling on a regular basis.
Joan - We need more sex with Joan. Even if it is only at work with her cloths on.
Hi everybody & TGIF! Virtual old-fashioneds, martinis, & gimlets all around...
@ioplex, you have some great points there. I don't feel the show has lost its mojo, but so far, Season 3 does have a different feel than the earlier seasons. It's been quite slow to build, more reflective. There's been somewhat less emphasis on sex since Don's been behaving himself and Roger's still infatuated with Jane for the time being. But things are starting to get a little crazy now between the July 4 bloodbath and the Peggy/Duck rendezvous. Also we're clearly not finished with Miss Farrell or Henry Francis yet.
ITA with your excellent description of Pete. He started out as a an unsettling, totally intriguing character who exhibited sociopathic tendencies as well as some indications of a narcissistic personality. He's shockingly immature for his age and lacks impulse control. I got scared every time he picked up that rifle. Pete's behavior has been more ordinary this season on the surface at least, although his issues are still obvious when you consider his poorly concealed jealousy and childish pettiness toward Ken Cosgrove. I don't think the baby matters very much (if at all) to Pete, but when he told Peggy he was in love with her and that she was "perfect" etc., she flat-out rejected him, so I did expect a little more tension between them due to his bruised ego and lack of emotional maturity. Maybe he's just been in denial somehow since then.
Roger has been a little dull and kind of in the background lately, except for his jaw-dropping blackface performance. Can't say that was boring. I would like to see more scenes between him, Mona, and Margaret regarding the wedding. There's a lot of good dramatic tension in the interactions between the 3 of them-- and poor Brooks, who clearly has no idea what he's in for!
While Joan is so much more than just a sexpot (although she's certainly got that in spades) I agree that we definitely need more Joan in some capacity ASAP. I hope she'll be back somehow on Sunday.
A few folks previously mentioned that Pete might be a greater threat to Don, now that he could (through his defense dept buddy) find out more about Don trading places with the real Don Draper.
If that occurs, will Peggy step in and threaten to retaliate by telling Trudy about having Pete's baby?
Hi everyone. I am on my daily train ride back, trying to master this Internet (not going to let the kids see this, or they will want it for Christmas). I am asking you Maddicts (is that the proper term?) what you think will happen to my colleagues and I in the upcoming episode? Don't keep me waiting.
[waves to Don-in-the-first-person on his magical internet-enabled portable device from The Future! WTG on the time travel, Don!]
NNT, excellent idea, but I wonder exactly what would Pete stand to gain from exposing Don (again) right now? He already tried 3 years ago and it made him look like a total @$$ to Bert Cooper. Perhaps if Pete were desperate for money for some reason, he might blackmail Don on a more personal level-- maybe threatening to reveal the truth to Betty? I thought Pete's seemed to be much more worried about Ken Cosgrove getting the upper hand in the joint heads of accounts "competition" lately versus anything to do with Don, but if you're right and he did try to use this against him somehow, I'd think both of them would keep the whole thing as private as possible, but if Peggy somehow stumbled onto the whole plot, then she certainly does have one heck of a loaded weapon against Pete in her back pocket! She's already covered for Don once with Bobbie Barrett, though. Would Peggy want to risk all of SC finding out her own deepest secret just to protect Don? She's been pretty irritated with him lately. Now, maybe if Don does something for her in return i.e. a raise...? Actually, I could totally see a whole episode based on everyone blackmailing/threatening everyone else in a giant vicious cycle.
@bluegirl I'm not looking for fast and crazy. In fact, I though the rider mower scene was a little bit of a "Who shot JR?" kind of moment. It severed no purpose of than shock value. That scene was cheap. Actually something that was more frustrating was Salvatore's heavy gay sex scene. Not because it was so sexually explicit but because it undermined the character. Salvatore is torn between social acceptability and his true feelings. So the explicit nature of that sex scene made it all about sex when they should have emphasized the serious sexual conflict he is living with. For example, the scene where Salvatore reenacts the Bye Bye Birdie routine was very good. The actress that plays his wife did a good job. She realized something at that moment. That was a definitive and positive moment in the development of Salvatore's character.
I miss Joan. Plan and simple: I miss Joan. She was the fast-paced wit in that office. The scene where Dr. Harris forced her onto the floor and raped her, oh, that had me pissed. And when Jane came back to the office in MOKH, Joan could have shot back with a stinging remark about sloppy seconds, but she was too classy.
@ioplex, I'm glad someone else picked up on Kitty's very slight facial expressions! The way Sal picked up his imaginary hemline and ran back to the bed... You know that she knows something is terribly worng in her marriage.
I don't think that the baby is much of a thought to either Peggy or Pete. Pete seemed crushed when she told him about their baby, but the only other time he seemed to think about it was in MOKH (when his wife was talking to the very pregnant Betty). And Peggy just came across as even more selfish when it came to talking to her mom about moving to Manhattan. Her mom is raising her kid! And with no "Thanks, Ma!" to boot. The only time she seemed sad about her choice was when she was asking Don for a raise (in accordance with the new law...) and she held the baby booty in her hand and said, "Third time. It must be old hat. ... I think, 'I want what he has.' And you have so much of it." That seemed to be the only time that she really thought about her son in any kind of maternal way.
Can I just say that I adore Betty? I physically identify with Joan (and God love 'em!!!), but I just get Betty. The whole my-husband-doesn't-appreciate-me thing and the way she snaps at people is just spot-on. I just love her!!
No offense to anybody, but I think that those of you who are surprised that the characters are different from season 1 are missing the point of the show. People DO change and grow with time. And this isn't Star Wars or LOTR where there's literally a battle between good and evil. For example, yes, Pete was set up as a total jerk in the first episode of season 1. But even during season 1 we had reason to believe that he was more complex and not a "villain." Frankly, his behavior in season 1 was no different from Don's - Don just covers his swarminess with charm and suaveness. Deifying Peggy, Joan and/or Don is actually the opposite of what MW would want I think. He's created these great, 3 dimensional characters. We should appreciate that instead of trying to box each character into a certain "type."
One more thing - this isn't a soap opera. Not saying that Pete knowing about Don's real identity will never come up, but looking at the past three seasons, Pete and Don's relationship is a lot more complicated than you guys are making it out to be. He desperately wants Don's approval and when he couldn't get it in season 1, he lashed out with the blackmailing. Since then, things have changed. I think Don has a lot more respect for Pete now (remember how Pete handled California on his own and Don told him he was ready). And I don't think Peggy is going to be having a heart to heart with Trudy anytime soon.
@giantsfan21, no offense taken here. You make some very good pragmatic points! MM is indeed not a simple good vs. evil parable nor is it a soap opera. I do appreciate the complexity of the characters. I've said on this board before that I love that they're all flawed and they all make mistakes. I'm not at all surprised or disappointed that some of them have changed. In fact I hope that they will change because it makes for good drama like we're seeing with Peggy. She's changed a lot from Season 1 and it's fascinating. I just think they aren't giving some of the others much to do lately, such as my earlier statement about Roger. He's kind of faded into the background a bit, becoming like a prop at SC who gets trotted out whenever there are papers to sign. We actually don't know if he has changed significantly as a person because he's not getting the same screen time he used to.
JMHO, and not trying to get into a debate, but I have to respectfully disagree that Pete and Don are or were similar... I just don't see it. Even setting aside my amateur armchair psychiatric opinions, Pete is still selfish, manipulative, and insensitive to pretty much everyone on the planet. He has few redeeming qualities that we've seen thus far, anyway. Has Pete ever done or said anything that was authentically kind or helpful to anyone? However Don has shown compassion for others multiple times. He is generally a good, gentle, loving father to his children. He's capable of expressing real love and genuine remorse, such as in his handwritten letter to Betty. His worst qualities are a penchant for adultery and secrecy. Not perfect, certainly not. He is highly ethical in business dealings, such as recently when he felt that the jai alai kid was in over his head. Yet Pete, who was that guy's fraternity buddy from way back, was all gung ho to take him for all he's got financially. "Enjoy your fatted calf"... Pete takes pleasure in other people's misfortune. Don at least has some sense of ethics and morality, even if he twists it sometimes to fit his own needs. BTW I didn't have quite as much compassion for Don in Season 1 as I do today. After what we now know about his horrifically abusive childhood, he's actually doing fairly well for having gone through that. Don could easily be a rage-filled alcoholic who beats his family just like Archibald Whitman, but he is better than that, and he deserves some serious credit for that.
Souvenir Hmm I think it could pertain to a few things in the episode:
The Welt on Don's head - A souvenir of his night of teenage foolishness with the hitchiker/muggers. (Funny that Conrad Hilton advised Don that young people keep us young)
The scarf that was the inpetus for Peggy's Duckfest as it were. (Could go into some more Duck inuendo but ..mmmm no did anyone else find that a bit disturbing, but given Peggy's recent sexual liberation who's next - Sal???)
The fainting sofa - Betty's souvenir for the day she spent with a man she found hmmm interesting (thus touching herself on it in the flash forward Tarantinoesque sequencing of the episode.He is an older powerful man and her Daddy just died. A Betty duckfest (lowercase duck) may be around the corner-- or around the reservoir as it were)
After seeing title is now "Summer Vacation", remembered Don's and Miss Farrell's conversation at July 20 eclipse. He asks if she's going on vacation and she says "no, and you?" He says "We'll be here."
@ bluegirl - agreed that not everybody has changed (Roger being a great example) but I wouldn't say Peggy is the only one either. IMO of the main characters, Peggy and Pete are the most changed. I mean, if somebody had asked you two seasons ago which character would be suggesting integrated ads and talking to Hollis, would you have guessed Pete? I probably wouldn't have (although I DO think that it's been suggested for awhile that he's not as bigoted as his peers). And judging by the preview for Sunday's episode, Pete hasn't backed off of perusing Ebony in spite of the dressing down he got from Sterling and Cooper...I guess I'm just not on the "Pete is an awful human" wagon, although I know a lot of fans are. And I think I could argue that he's had a fairly harsh childhood as well - born into money but he hasn't received love from his parents, he gets no respect for the career he's chosen and to top it off, his mom threatens to disown him if he and Trudy adopt.
I should have been more clear about what I was saying re: Pete and Don in season 1. I'm not saying their motivations or personalities are similar, but rather that many of their actions are. We all got riled up by Pete's misogynistic comments, but it's not like Don didn't say sexist things, just as an example. Also, while I think Don is generally a fairly OK father, it's important to remember that he's often an absent one. In my book, running off to California for 3 weeks without telling your wife or kids (I don't care if Betty had kicked him out, she still had a right to know) isn't an example of good parenting. Don gets to play good cop to Betty's bad cop and I think that's part of why we view him as the "better" parent. Re: love and affection in that handwritten letter to Betty in the S2 finale, I was in a minority on that - I found it pretty cliche (I mean, the dude's a good writer). I'm of the opinion that it wasn't the letter that moved Betty to ask him to come back but the fact that she was pregnant. Pete and Peggy's final scene in that episode was IMO far more moving and heartbreaking.
It wasn't my original idea, about Pete blackmailing Don. I was addressing what other people were saying on the last or some other thread. I didn't think it through too much. I just think that if Pete evers tries to pull something on Don again, Peggy may step in. She is not one to hold a grudge. She has manners, after all, she's from Bay Ridge.
@giantsfan21: That was really well said. I agree with all you say about Pete. He is not as black as he's painted. I think he is totally going to redeem himself. And I was thinking about Pete's background today. It is so like Don's except that Pete's people had money and status. Both Don and Pete had fathers who sat in a chair and totally denigrated them. Pete's father criticized advertsiing and so did Don's.
Thanks. I think if the title remains 'Souvenir' it could have the same implication.
Enjoying analysis of Pete above.
Was thinking about Roger/Don. If Don is ever exposed, it could be Roger who is most likely to forgive him. He's been such a schm*ck, digging his own grave, combined with a keen philosophical streak.
@Fan-Nan, thank you for your brilliance and being supportive of the whole group!
I may have missed something but was Cooper implying that he knows about Don's true identity (" After all whos is really signing this contract? and " Would you say I know a little something about you Don?") Thus coercing him to sign? Are there implications to this contract beyond the Hilton account in terms of its importance to Roger and Coop?
PS I'm hot for teacher? She can make me put my head in a cardboard box and stare at the sun anyday!!
@Giantsfan I agree with you on Don's parenting skills. He is an O.K. Dad. nothing super, frequently absent, some compassion for his kids, at least to what we have seen from Betty. I think Weiner has softened Betty's harshness towards the kids in the last few episodes. Her reaction to Bobby hanging up the phone to soon was perfectly realistic. She did try to show Sally some attention with the gift doll, although we see she really is clueless on who her kids are. That line about the faeries wrapping it may have worked on a dumb 5 year old, not a bright(cigarette smoking,money stealing, drinking, car driving nine year old. ) At least she wasn't drinking and Driving at the same time.
I was just wondering if the giantsfan name is football or baseball derived.
As a graduate of Bryn Mawr (Class of 1970) I was proud to hear Betty tell Henry she attended my school, but I don't find it believable. I love Betts, but she's not intellectual, and at a time when most of the Ivies excluded women, Bryn Mawr and other Seven Sisters colleges were highly selective. My class was one of the first in which graduates of public and private schools were about evenly mixed; in previous years (like Betty's), most students would have been graduates of elite all-girl prep schools. An informal guy like Grandpa Gene would have attracted stares at Parents' Day. What's more, a true Mawrter would either have KNOWN what a fainting chaise was or would have pretended to. And why no books or Angel classical LPs in Betty's newly decorated living room? "Animal House" was more accurate in its depiction of the Seven Sisters types of the era.
As a graduate of Bryn Mawr (Class of 1970) I was proud to hear Betty tell Henry she attended my school, but I don't find it believable. I love Betts, but she's not intellectual, and at a time when most of the Ivies excluded women, Bryn Mawr and other Seven Sisters colleges were highly selective. My class was one of the first in which graduates of public and private schools were about evenly mixed; in previous years (like Betty's), most students would have been graduates of elite all-girl prep schools. An informal guy like Grandpa Gene would have attracted stares at Parents' Day. What's more, a true Mawrter would either have KNOWN what a fainting chaise was or would have pretended to. And why no books or Angel classical LPs in Betty's newly decorated living room? "Animal House" was more accurate in its depiction of the Seven Sisters types of the era.
@Hapynzap: I am SO hoping that Don's talking to Rachel Menken in that scene. I still hold out hope for them to be together. I've always felt Rachel's been the only one Don could unleash his "story" to and she'd accept him hands down as Dick or Don. They had such an honest connection and one of my favorite episodes is when he shows up at her apartment and they lay on the couch together. I know Rachel's married now, but I have this little side story in my head that she had to get divorced because her new husband couldn't handle the "cosmopolitan" and "business" type woman that she is, or that she spent too much time at the department store, so he left her, and she then looks up Don again and they end up together. MW? Are you reading?
Hey! Look at all the new faces (avatars) on some of you old posters! A little nip, a little tuck... It's O.K, I understand.
@hobocode, I love yours, because I'm a huge Abbott and Costello fan.
@NeverNotTasy, perfect.
@rnpen, I caught you on the last thread, nice to see there was something underneath all those bandages.
@Sugar Bear, I sat there for hours, but no one showed up for my class! Probably smoking in Kinsey's office, planning some protest.
I think there were a couple more new avatars, but I can't recall.
Now where's the open bar for this shindig?
Before I get pre-show plastered, check out the latest issue of Entertainment Weekly for a feature on the props for series.
No, I don't work for the magazine.
I just like to keep up with important world current events.
Busy--My sister went to Smith, and several other friends went to Wellesley and other Seven Sister schools (all in the 80s), so I know they are very selective. But weren't they originally more like the most elite finishing schools until maybe closer to the time you went there? At some point, wasn't there a time when these colleges started raising their standards for admission, and generally taking the education of women more seriously.
My old boss went to Smith also, but graduated in like '54 and it sounded like a completely different college than the one my sister attended.
Betty would have gone to Bryn Mawr in the very early 50s, so women weren't really supposed to be "scholars" during that period, but rather were in college to get their Mrs degrees, no? But I also wouldn't call Betty stupid either. I feel like she's more a product of a domineering, protective father and of the era as well as a "victim" of her beauty--not much was expected of her beyond the social graces and looking pretty.
I think that started changing by the time you went there no?
Glad to see Betty with the baby bottle sterilizing equipment in the sneak peak. I was wondering about that, since she isn't nursing. What a pain! Jon Hamm must be pretty short to fit on that loveseat, even curled up. I've begun to notice they shoot him at a distance from other men to make him look taller.
@fifty-two: Are you calling me short? You better remember who you are talking to there. Even if I was short, who cares, you shouldn't imply that it's an insult. Auburn Annie: Thank you for defending me.
@DonD I do not know or care how tall you are, but I will give you proper credit for playing well in the celebrity softball game during this years MLB all star break. Good fielding, good hitting. So many celebrities embarass themselves in a sports setting. Not you sir.
thinking about what the souvenir might be - perhaps don buys something for miss farell while on vacay - kaleidoscope, sun catcher, something that reminds him of the eclipse.
Until Mad Men came along I thought The Sopranos was the best series ever on television, Now Mad Men wins with me hands down. Who would have thought that a show could portray in an artistic way all the complexities of that Madison Ave. society in that time period.
And each episode gets better and better. The "tractor" episode blew me away. But 723 really seemed almost perfectly written, acted, and directed. When Coop sounding subtle, said to Don/Dick at the end "would you say I know something about you?" I did a double take. I was not expecting that and yet it made perfect sense. Then of course came the "who's really signing this anyway". Which seemed to give Don a little escape hatch.
I am more astounded each week.
If more shows like this can take off, maybe we could have a much longed for Golden Age of Television.
hapynzap i love rachel too but she's got a new shoe on FX, not sure she coming back. I think there is a chance bobby might return. I think UTZ is still a client. I would like to see don and jimmy in the same room again!
Yeah, j9mac, I too would like to see Jimmy come back. His wife Bobby not so much. Jimmy sure was interesting and had stage presence. A favorite scene was when he was forward with Betty and she said "you people are ugly and crude" and he shot back with "what people... comedians?" I nearly cried laughing.
I am not familiar with that actor, I wonder if he is a comedian in real life. He seems so much like the "Borscht Belt" comics of that era.
Hi AuburnA...Check a thread called My day on set of Mad Men.(sorry I don't know how to post a link.. cyber lame is moi)... Stage Kiss was in Maypole scene and says that Jon Hamm is 5'9" or so. She has a great story, but last time I checked it was not yet completed...
Sugar Bear.... I too want to see Don and Rachel do something together... my "guess" on the predicton thread was that they are each looking for a cab and end up sharing one..( nods to Hapynzap and jmac). And...loved your great riffs with Hobo on the eclipse party... you two are like a jazz duo....and can't forget Racy.. that makes it a trio.
@hobocode52: Thank you. When not fighting in the Korean War, my platoon-mates gave me some grounders.
@Hapynzap: I have not fallen, and I resent that statement. I am cleverly biding my time until the time is right to form my own advertising firm. And I'm sure Conrad will be more than willing to be my one of my first clients.
@BettyC: This season we've seen Betty as a product of her domineering father. I've just done a complete review of S1, and in the first 3 episodes, there are several references to Betty's Mom. It was Betty's Mom who sent her to a fat farm for summer camp one year. It was Betty's Mom that had Betty so convinced she was fat she showed up to home economic class with a p.j. pattern 3 sizes too big (and brushed it off with: "I guess I'd lost more weight than I thought at Summer Camp") It was Betty's Mom that thought modeling was like being a "prostitute". It was Betty's Mom that was concerned about Betty's looks and Betty's ability to find a man. And, Betty often makes reference to how beautiful her mother was, however, the only time we, the audience have seen her Mother was in Betty's imagination in "The Fog", where Betty's Mom was rather plain. Betty has developed post death near worship of both her parents. A view IMO that is severely influenced by anger and resentment. A cover for these very real feelings.
One other note. There's been much talk in these threads about Betty not doing much housework, but we see her doing a lot of it in S1. Even in S3, Gene told her to stop "doing the maid's job" (dishes).
@Melba: Did stagekiss finally post the end to that thread? I checked yesterday and there still was no update. How do I access it?????
@NeverNoToasty: Yes, Peggy has that hold over Pete.
@bluegirl: Really great post! Re: your comment to NNT: You're right, Pete could tell Betty about Don being Dick. You're also right, Peggy could go to Trudy, as "she has a loaded gun", as you say. And, I agree, Peggy & Don both share big secrets, although Peggy doesn't know Don's BIGGEST secret (that he is Dick Whitman), & Don doesn't know Peggy's BIGGEST secret (that her baby out of wedlock was Pete's child.) Wouldn't you think that Peggy & Pete would go out for a drink one night, maybe to talk about what happened when Peggy gave up their baby, & the conversation might easily drift to Pete telling Peggy about Don being an imposter? Pete doesn't know about Don's infidelities like Peggy does, or if Pete suspects, he doesn't know how close to home (Bobbie Barrett), or how far reaching they are. If I were Don, I'd be impressed that Pete hasn't told the rest of "the brat pack", or even Trudy (or what we know), about the Dick Whitman revelation.
You say we may have an episode w/ everyone blaming everyone else, or did you say "blackmailing everyone to everyone"? Nevertheless, I think we have a whole season of that!
I have never posted any show or season predictions, but I will post some now: I have a feeling we will see a television playing in this episode, maybe see more of Harry. That's important. I agree w/ all of you, this is how Joan comes back to SC, maybe just in a temporary worker position in the TV Media Dept. She'll either be working w/ Harry, & she'll have to take over duties for him due to illness (or his wife or baby become ill), or Joan will come in as a temporary replacement for Harry (same reasons) up front. The British will be responsible for bringing Joan in as a temporary, & I believe it will be the British who promote her up. They will behave this way toward Joan based on her actions during the foot accident. Maybe she & Harry will be fighting it out the way Pete & Ken are (altho Ken either doesn't know it, or doesn't care.) Instead, I believe Joan will be brought in, once again, to "save the day", & will reap the rewards for it this time. Then her spouse will want her to quit (she'll be working too many hours, or something, & not be home to get his dinner, etc.)
Roger & Joan will be together again, & Joan will push Jane out. Maybe Jane will leave because of her drinking, or because she will fall for a younger guy. I think there's a good chance of that - Jane will divorce Roger, & they may not have a prenup. It's 1963, & she'd get their new house.
I think Roger will become ill again, & Jane won't be able to handle it, or it will happen when he's w/ Joan.
Either way, I think the British will bring Joan back & do what SC never did, give her the opportunity she so richly deserves.
@Trotskyaire - The guy who plays Jimmy Barrett is also a member of the cast of LOST who appeared in Season 4 as a villainous member of the Dharma initiative. I was in Mad Men Season 2 withdrawal last year, saved by LOST Season 4 starting in January, and surprised to see Jimmy reappearing in this role. Actor’s name is Patrick Fischler.
@MelbaToast: It's easy to riff with Hobo, I think we're cut from the same cloth. Race keeps it all together, her memory is amazing. I'd like to take our act to another forum website. I keep sending him cigars and I even sent Race a Hermes scarf....but they keep telling me no.
@ioplex: you thought the lawn mower scene was cheap? Wow – that scene moved so quickly it took me about 10 seconds to realize Guy’s foot was run over.
And Sal himself was *too good* when he reenacted the Patio commercial. I’m pretty certain Kitty is guessing that something’s wrong with Sal.
Souvenir is also from the French for “to remember,” I believe. That’ll probably be the theme for the episode: remembering.
@racy: Who knows what will happen to Roger and Jane? He’s pretty much entertaining her whims – when did he and Mona ever give fancy parties, period? (That marriage won’t last long – maybe she’ll have an affair and Roger will find out about it – or maybe he will find out Jane’s pretty much using him)
@SugarBear I don't need no steeenkin ceegars......
Just tell me where . Just found out on another thread that Wasthere is a Cougar. I thought she was a Chevelle, maybe that's Racy, hence the name.
@JasonLloyd73: I'm not sure what your post was asking, but I'll try to clear this up. You do remember that Pete found out that Don Draper's name was really Dick Whitman, & Pete approached Don w/ a blackmail ultimatum: Promote me to Accounts Manager, or I'll tell Coop the truth about you. Don told Pete, "Let's go to Coop now." When they went to see Coop in his office, & Pete told Coop the truth, Coop came around the desk front & said to Pete, "Who cares?". Coop (nor Pete) has ever brought it up again, although when Pwet
@MelbaToast: Thanks for the mention about my eclipse party suggestions. I am so flattered that everyone seems to be laughing about it. I'm really glad I posted it now. I was concerned that I would get censored, or posters would complain that the list was "off topic". So many posters have written some kind & friendly posts to me about it. Very heady stuff for me. This on top of everyones' reaction to my deep, long analysis of the character's actions in the lawnmower episode. Someone, I think maybe Sugar Bear, actually reposted my whole eclipse party list to a sepaprate thread, that HOBO started, just for "the party". You notice how w/ all these accolades from my peers here on the site, 2 weeks in a row, AMC wasn't impressed enuf w/ what I wrote either week, to quote me, &/ or single me out for recognition. And I WRITE for a living! (partly.) In fact, I know one poster who has been singled-out & quoted by AMC, 3 times!,winning MM lighters & a mug. Many people have won twice. I'm not jealous, just curious. Does this lack of recognition have anything to do w/ the amount of complaints I posted about 'liquor's) name being a personal affront to me? I've also expressed that I consider this sexual harrassment to all the "Kentucky Derby fillies" here on the site, & AMC has e-mailed me back w/ the message that 'liquor' is an "examplary poster". I wonder if liquor has been quoted or won a MM lighter? Hmmmmmm
@hobocode52 - my name is football derived, go NY Giants tomorrow! :)
a couple of the posts got me wondering - does Don actually know that Peggy had a baby? I thought he saw her when she was in a psychiatric ward and (in their brief scene) it didn't seem like he probed for WHY she ended up there. The Don-Peggy-Pete secret web is very interesting...
I have a white china Mad Men mug with the "Fill to Here With Whiskey" line, and a Mad Men pen with the little falling man inside it....not that I am bragging or anything 'cause truthfully, I can't remember what I said to earn them.
Hobo, I really think you should have a pen for using "crestfallen"...it is a superb word and very rarely seen these days.
@Hapynzap (8:36pm) - Maybe Don is always falling and always ends up coolly sitting with his arm across the back of the chair, there’s no beginning and no end (confirmed by Don Draper, 9:54pm). Like the way the Soprano series ended, there was no ending, just an unspecial family meal in a cheap restaurant.
yay!! 3 votes thanks Sugar. I almost posted that line about myself earlier in the week but i refrained. You are the adorable one however. I am going to get you a big ol jug o' Honey. maybe a salmon or two also. And a Don Draper bear from Vermont Teddy Bears.I did get you a box of chocolates in a heart shaped box already, but I ate them. sorry
I really like the Francine character who spoke that "adorable" line. The actress is so believable.
@Hobo: I know, I love her too. Her name is Anne Dudek. My other favorite show is "House", and she was in S5 last year....played a sassy young doctor and was excellent as that character too. She's quite an actress.
Lily oh Lily.... Attendez, s'il vous plait -- Attencion por favor --Achtung bitte ! We entreat you to take note of the excellence of our very own Hobocode52 -- he is prized by Maddicts, but as yet unprized by the management. Please, please rectify this error.
We will be so very crestfallen if you fail us in this.....
My TV guide for tonight's episode says, "Betty and Don go on a business trip". That strikes me as out of character for Don. Sure, he uses Betty as his arm candy when her beauty and charm comes in handy with clients. But I can't imagine him taking her on a business trip with him. I can't wait to see how this plays out. Any guesses where they travel to?
i'm a giants fan too! hope you don't mind me bragging but i was at the stadium when we almost defeated the patriots two seasons ago. what an awesome game, it took us two hours to get to our car (had to park off site) it was super cold and we were surrounded by pats fans, but it was worth it!
With regard to lost "mojo":
I actually thank God, the writers and Mr. Weiner have resisted the "McDonald's drive thru" approach of two dimensionally holding onto the obvious character flaws of each character as a crutch. As Don said in episode seven, (paraphrasing),"do you want to kill it all at once or do you want to sheer the lamb every year?" So often, TV drama's...good TV dramas, have succumbed to the very real temptations (and network pressures) of thouroughly exploiting the surface titalating aspects of an otherwise deep character, ending up "jumping the shark" after three seasons or so. The best example of course is "Mash", which dragged on and ended up recycling tired behaviors (albeit in interesting ways at times). Yes, it had a long run but please, look at the first two seasons and compare it to the tired story lines in 1981. "Mash" became an interesting habit rather than continuing to build on its groundbreaking writing. Weiner purposely slows it down because we already know the basic "weaknesses" of each character. Its now time to evolve with the amazing times just ahead. Let's not forget that, Don has just reached a massive "fork in the road" signing what he contends as an "indentured service" contract and Roger Sterling's daughter is to be married on November 23, 1963! And let's not forget how the already changing culture hits the "superhighway" in February, 1964. Its time for a little seed planting, please resist the instant gratification if you really understand the premise of the show. There is massive tension being built upon if you look closely and get out of the "titillating" mode.
60’s child - something that enabled people much less talented than Sal to succeed in advertising: Photoshop layers. I’ll give you further instructions in G’s avatar-making workshop.
I am guessing that tonight's episode is called "Souvenir" for Betty will come across one of her dad's souvenir. She seems to be acting out of impulse again by purchasing that "fainting couch" simply because Henry had commented on it. Wonder what Don's reaction to the couch will be. She's known to be flaky and even though Henry might be a distraction, she is after all a newly mother and it wasn't long since the passing of her dad. I say it's time for a shrink session. Not sure if it was acknowledged in those days but postpartum depression might have kicked in.
@j9mac we will have to start a seperate room for us Big Blue Mad Men Fans. Maybe Don can take Bobby and Sally to a Giants game at Old Yankee Stadium in 1963 they went 11-3 that year won their division but lost to the Bears in the championship. Like I said I will start us a seperate thread. Don't want a 15 yard penalty for straying off topic
Could someone please recap why Betty was seeing a shrink in the first place? Didn't Don set it up for her? I felt it was really because of the malaise and insecurity she was experiencing with him.
@Melba merci beaucoup ,vous jolie jeune fille. that is my french, and all of it not computer aided.
@SugarBear Thanks for the info on Anne Dudek. I think a new low for Don, doing a neighbor, this neighbor is what I would like to see Don do to break out of his season long slump. I used to watch House when Bob Villa started it and then Norm took over. I didn't know that a woman(Ms. Dudek) had taken over the show. Wow things really have changed.
Bipolar--Correct. I wasn't being exhaustive in all the reasons why Betty and her ilk focus mostly on their appearance and their role as homemaker (v. scholar). She's surely a product of her environment. And so were many women, including those at the Seven Sisters.
She wasn't destined to become the next Margaret Mead!
@rjspeleton-- how can a writer figure out how much of the story to tell if he/she doesn't know how many seasons are available to him/her? Must make pacing really hard!
Hi a-line, Betty went to the shrink because of the hand-numbness thing. Remember she couldn't put her lipstick on? She was driving with the kids in the car and ran onto a lawn? The doctors had already done the "dye test" and couldn't find anything and deduced that it must be in her head.
@aline: Betty had a physical problem, her hands were going numb. The final straw was her fender-bender into the front yard hitting the bird bath. After 2 separate physicians and some test, it was determined her problem was psychological.. The Last episode of S1, we have her in the Shrink's office (after finding out Don has been calling her Shrink) where she tells the shrink she knows her husband is unfaithful. However, I can't remember what the end of Betty's shrink sessions was in S2. Why did she stop? Don get tired of it? Find out the shrink knew he was cheating? Anybody remember???
@wasthere: no, you are not last. Between my nicotine addiction and sheer stubborn nature, it will probably be I.
@BettyC: Do you (I do) have a sense of "oh yeah, I forgot people used to think that way" as you watch? There are so many things we take for granted now (no sexual harassment in workplace, racism is bad, don't marry your mother/father, spankin kids is now controversial as opposed to "the norm", etc. I could spend this thread listing them) I find myself continually taken aback at the differences in accepted beliefs. And yet, society, as a whole, really hasn't changed all that much. Sometimes I think that for MW, that's just what he's trying to tell us.
Hi Bipolarbear, Betty went through the phone bill to see who Don might be calling (that's how Francine found out her husband was cheating) and called an unfamilliar Manhattan number. She called and it was the shrink who answered. Poor Betty.
@Deep Dish: Right. I just got thru all 13 episodes of S1 on DVD. My question is: at what point and for what reason in S2 did Betty STOP seeing the shrink???? I can't remember.
Deep/Bi/Suze: There seems to be a missing fight between the spouses over the phone bill revelation. Or Betty didn't confront Don, just stopped the sessions, and all swept under the rug.
Thank you for your well wishes life is going on and it is getting a bit easier each day.Hubs left for for his step fathers funeral right after we got home so I am really waiting for the rhythm of normal life to start again.. Just not having someone to watch the show with makes it hard..somehow my eight and ten year old just dont get it.
I want Joan back
funny I am beginning to like pete.
the teacher creeps me out more every time i see her( could she have a box of souvenirs? )
we are still planning our Halloween Madness party where everyone comes dressed in 60 late 50s and we are serving on all vintage dishes etc..
@MadMenSuze: Was it you that posited on another thread you believe Ann may not actually exist? This disturbs me greatly. If Anna turns out to be just a figment of Don's imagination, I may throw up my hands and give up. That would mean that all our careful watching and analyzing is all for naught. I understand MW enjoys a little mis-direction, however, this story line and its characters are complicated enough without having to figure out what is "real" and what is not. Ugh!
@MadMenSuze: Indeed. What DID happen to Helen Bishop and her son? That story line would seem to be more important than ever now that Betty has admitted to herself that Don cheats on her. Helen, and Francine would be great people for her to confide in. Much better than the shrink. I guess that means much too much opportunity for Betty to grow and screws up whatever MW has in mind for her. @Fifty-two is right. Not knowing how many seasons one is writing for probably makes pacing difficult, not to mention character development.
@fifty-two, that's the intriguing dilemma for a writer and that's the secondary tension we all are experiencing. The first tension is that of characters such as Don coming to grips with wisdom, maturity and his own identity. The second tension is that of experiencing how the writers wrestle with keeping the stories tension and character development while also wrestling with the realities of television boundaries. Just when does a writer, for example, give into Niles' infatuation with Daphne and allow them to become a couple (thereby destroying the entertaining tension)? And this is not to mention the pressures of contracts as we all experienced with the long delay of season three. Its too bad we have the television reality to factor into such a brilliant story. Gotta love reality (not).
Stage Kiss was in Maypole scene and says that Jon Hamm is 5'9" or so.
Really? How far away was she from him? I've had a chance to meet Hamm and some of the other cast members as well as Matt Weiner. Hamm is definitely taller than 5'9". I'm 5'5," and the day I met Jon Hamm, I was wearing 2 1/2" heels. Standing next to him in those heels, he stood about 4 or 5 inches taller than me.
@grinandbearit-- I noticed Hamm was quite a bit shorter than the actor playing Conrad Hilton last episode. If Hamm is 6' or so, Hilton must be 6'5.
@bipolarbear-- so cool you watched all of S1 again! In S2, Glenn Bishop comes to see Betty and is camping out in Sally's backyard playhouse. Betty calls Helen to come get him, and he says he now hates her for doing that. Betty talks briefly to Helen and tells her Don isn't living there. I guess we haven't seen more of the Bishops because of their past differences-- and because Betty's probably feeling some shame over their separation and she may wish to avoid Helen.
Hi Grin&Bearit.... I'm sorry that at the minute I can't remember exactly which thread that was on... (I think it was one where she was mentioning her experience, but had not yet turned it into a separate thread) and just now haven't the time to hunt for it but I will later, unless someone knows....(help!)
Anyway...as I recall, she said she was within handshaking distance of JH, JJ, and Ryan Cutrona several times during the day.
Hi BiPolar... your remarks to BC about "forgetting that people used to think that way" really struck a chord with me... I flashed on that so often in S-1 and S-2. I love what MW is doing... and think you're spot on about his subtext --- the more things change the more they stay the same. (I used to know the french for that, but CRS has overtaken me...)
@fifty-two, I think the guy playing Hilton is about 6'2" or 6'3," which would make him 3 or 4 inches taller than Hamm. I think that's about right.
I thought Don was supposed to be going to Italy? That's why he's taking Bets with him. Don't know why he's going to Italy -- or Dallas or Denver, for that matter. Isn't the Hilton business just in New York? Why all this travel all of a sudden?
@MadMenSuze: My bad. Somebody posited it. It's on the episode 7 thread with well over a thousand posts. I'll never find it back now.
@Fifty-two: Thanks. Now I remember. There was just too much time for me between S2 and S3. I've forgotten more than I ever knew. Looks like I'm gonna have to go rent S2 as well. According to my local video store, it's a new release. If we have to wait til the middle of the following season for the previous season of MM to come out on DVD--well, my "old-people" memory problem is setting in too quickly for that to work for me.
fifty-two: I recall reading on a different thread that MW said
MM would be 5 seasons long. If true it would be disappointing
for obvious reasons but at least he could more easily tell a coherent story with a time line. I hope it's not true though so we can look forward to more than a couple more years with Don/Dick, Pete, Peggy and the gang. Maybe someone on this thread knows if this is true.
Bipolarbear: I recall an episode in S1 where Don is talking on the phone with the Psychiatrist and complaining that Betts is making no progress. The shrink recommends deep psychoanalysis with 2 or 3 sessions each week at which point Don pretty much hangs up on him in disgust. That was the end of her therapy with him.
Here's a cast picture from the Screen Actor's Guild Awards. Michael Gladis and Aaron Staton are probably the tallest of the regular cast members. They stand about 6'2 or 6'3. Next would be Bryan Batt and Mark Moses, who are somewhere between 6'0 and 6'2. In this picture, it looks like Staton, Somer, Hamm, Slattery, Gladis, and Kartheiser are standing in the same row, and approximately in the same planar space. Robert Morse is standing slightly in front of them, and Mark Moses looks like he's behind them. With the exception of Slattery, Kartheiser and Morse -- whom we know are shorter -- there's not that big a height difference between Hamm and the other guys. If Hamm were only 5'9", we'd certainly see more of a difference, and he'd be closer in size to Kartheiser, Slattery, and even Christina Hendricks. I suppose he could be standing on a box or wearing lifts, but we'll never know that for sure.
I realize that this isn't the "Christina Hendricks Forum", but I figure in this pre-show posting period, we have a little broader license.
I can't believe it just came to me, but the perfect role for Christina is that of Charity in the musical Sweet Charity. I don't know how she could possibly fit it in, or if another revival is even planned, but this lady is tailor made for the part.
@Trotskyaire: Then, after that, Betty gets the phone bill and calls one of the long distance #s on it (thinking she'll find a mistress at the other end) Instead, she gets the shrink. After that, we viewers are exposed to one last psych session in which she (Betty) tells the good Dr. about the scent of perfume, the sex where sometimes he's doing what she wants (Betty) and sometimes he's doing what somebody else wants and that she might be happier if her husband wasn't unfaithful. Far as I know, we have not had any more info regarding the shrink since then. Don't know if she's still going, if the shrink told Don what she said, if she just quit, if Don decided it wasn't doing any good. Just poof, no more info on Betty & the shrink.
That teacher thinks every man in the world wants her. Not every man is a philanderer. She seems to be calculating, manipulative, and envious. She called Don on the phone, using Sally as an excuse, and then complained to Don that he, and all the men who want her, have so much. She also said they were bored and she just really seemed not to like men.
Ok,ok, I'll stop after this, I promise. But here is how it coiuld happen.......
In the final season of Mad Men (season 5 according to posts) in 1969 Joan is "discovered" and cast in the role of Charity. And in an amazing "art imitates life imitaes art imitates life" twist, Christina is cast in the Broadway revival. Coming off the heels of Mad Men, the show would draw a huge audience, assuming Christina could learn to sing and dance adequately.
@bipolarbear, it was I, Mambo Deb, who said that I don't think Anna actually exists. I have a thread "Is Anna a Figment of Don's Imagination?" from August that you can look at that explains my reasons why, if you're interested (they're acutally real reasons; I'm not TOTALLY bonkers). I'm sure I'll be proved totally wrong as most predictions are, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it! And I'll throw myself on the mercy of the MM Posters Court for my punishment when the time comes. :-)
@MMS: They just gave Don a fat raise with that contract under the guise of bringing in the Hilton account. This fish is big enough to make PPL want to hang on to SC for a while longer.
Just a few more hours until “Souvenir”
Anybody remember this song from that great 1946 film The Best Years of Our Lives?
PI168, this made me think of you. It was my mom’s favorite film.
AMONG MY SOUVENIRS
There's nothing left for me
Of days that used to be
They're just a memory
Among my souvenirs
Some letters sad and blue
A photograph or two
I see a rose from you
Among my souvenirs
A few more tokens rest
Within my treasure chest
And, though they do their best
To give me consolation,
I count them all apart
And, as the teardrops start,
I find a broken heart
Among my souvenirs
I count them all apart
And, as the teardrops start,
I find a broken heart
Among my souvenirs.
@Deep Dish: Thanks for posting the words to that song. I remember it from many years ago, but the words didn't have the same meaning to me then as they do now. I choked up a bit.
Mambo, read your thread and left a message. You are scarysmart. I've wanted to use that term since Maria Shriver did, first time I found the right time.
(although I do not agree, it is soooo intriguing, creative and wow)
DARLINGS, I shall not bore you w/ any GORY details about my adventure after the U2 show other than I lost one of my fake Mink eyelashes!? It ended-up in somebody's pancakes at the brunch today!? BONO LIKES Mad Men yet says his wife Ali is the real Maddict!. Oprah/Gayle sent the last two seasons to her in Ireland at their castle and she MADores it! ALSO, Bill and Melinda Gates are huge fans too. Melinda knows Matt somehow as well! (C/O Yale!?)
I cd not believe that John Edwards had the audacity to attend the cocktail party. But he was there in an impeccable Tom Ford black sportscoat and black jeans-he is a U2 fan from way-back! He had two winsome Blondes on those coattails I must add. Poor, sweet Elizabeth!
My dear gal-pal: Jenny-whose Great-grandfather founded Duke University, was such the PURR-fect hostess at Heron's. We danced and drank and cavorted! (Bono was there about 20 mins before he went upstairs.) He was of course wearing his trademark sunglasses (tonight RED!?) because of an eye sensitivity?!-Which is why he usually wears them apparently. ENUFF! FUN!!!
AHEM: j9mac: "Rachel" is Dr. Maggie on FX's "Son's of Anarchy." DAMN, I KNEW she looked familiar! (take note Laurie B.!) GREAT!
- I saw on E"-News" that our Joan (Christina Hendrickson) is slated to marry a skinny Japenese fashion designer. Strange (she looks TWICE his size!?). Please Advise.
-hobocode52: I MADORE Jack White and The White Stripes and his other various projects! If The Rolling Stones are still alive in 2017 (Hullo Keith!?) they need to play at the ECLIPSE BASH too!
-Sugar Bear: (SORRY RACY!) I am rather a pornography addict (Surfers ALWAYS have porn playing on the VCR, in the background, at their parties; ALWAYS.) I developed an unhealthy habit (and yes DEAR ONES-that are trying to quit; I smoke 5 cigs-MARL/REDS per day) and enjoy tho' am often shocked at what they will actually do on camera these days. Tera Patrick, Sasha Grey, and Jenna Jameson are the WILDEST. It's ALL CURIOUS ! I consider my fetish a kind of Anthropological inquiry! Dr. K. doesn't even know, lest he have a fatal cardiac situation! (Yet, he unwittingly benefits: P'rap; P'raps NOT!?)
He's flying in at 9:05. He better leave me alone until after I view "Souvenir" TWICE! And have a bubblebath and a catnap and a catNIP!
@Mambo Deb: I just read your thread on Anna. Very intriguing I must say! One thing disturbs me though, and it really doesn't matter if Anna is real or not. You said you'd just re-watched the episode (I need to) and:
"He also had to look up "her" number and write down her address; supposedly he had been there many times."
There is a problem with this. At one point in that episode she points to her new porch as says: "You like it? You paid for it" (or something like that) Supposedly he's sending her money to keep quiet, so why would he need to look up her address or phone number if he's sending her money??????
Kudos to Mambo Deb on your Anna theory, especially re: comparing the storyline with that of Peer Gynt. You are indeed supersmart as many posters here seem to be. That's part of why I love conversing with all of you. I don't know if Anna's real or not, but you convinced me it might be possible that she isn't. I really enjoyed looking at your floorplan of the Drapers' home too, especially the little comic touches like "clown dress". LOL.
Bipolarbear, I thought having to look up her address was sort of odd as well, but remember Don had not been to see Anna in person for some years-- possibly as many as 10-- since his marriage to Betty. In the flashback where he tells her about meeting Betty, Anna indicated they probably wouldn't see each other much after he got married and started his own family, etc.
I've been curious how Don's kept his sending money to California a secret from Betty all this time. Even if they're sent to a PO Box he has to account for the money somehow. Then there's the whole question of taxes. Guess it's all in the locked drawer...
Who knows? Maybe he wires money to Anna using a fake name; maybe he sends her a money order. Probably will be left to our imagination.
Maybe everybody in Mad Men is on a collision course:
Don is – everything is raveling at the seams – he got weasled into signing the contract, like he was some kind of bloody office boy. He pretty much rolled over and played Good Doggie.
Sal is – his wife is starting to figure out which twin really has the Toni, as the used to say back in the day.
Joan is – she’s finding out that her cushy life as a doc’s wife isn’t exactly going to happen (maybe he got bounced from the surgical rotation/residency – who knows? She said “Did they fire you?” and he hotly interrupted, “I don’t want to talk about it” as he retreated to their bedroom)
Roger is – what he had for Jane was plain ole infatuation and probably male menopause, while he was at it.
Peggy is – she got chewed out by Don and that offer from Duck is looking better and better (though she didn’t even have the horse sense to ask “how much will I be paid?”)
Pete is – both he and Kenny are in charge of one department. Both of them are being tried out – and it’s not looking great for Kenny since the little mishap with the JD lawn mower.
Betty is – she’s got a child she doesn’t want, the kids are acting like kids act and she just can’t handle that. And her husband’s boss calls and has her try to run interference for him?
Remember the words of Grandpa Gene: “All hell is about to break loose.” And we’ll probably see it all in the last episode of the season.
Hi pi & Bipolar.. sending $.... if I were Don I'd have an automatic wire transfer every month from a separate acct with statements sent to the office....
Mambo..exactly... who knows (?), Anna may be a chimera... stranger things have already happened on MM...
FanNan.... Lovely fun! Now that is the 452nd reason that I get that "Scarlett" feeling after certain of your posts... I know you remember the line... Positively Pea Green with Envy...(big accent on the green - wish I knew how to do that)
Counting down.... and will toast you and all the Maddicts tonight with my serviceable yet tasty glass of red ...
Sally seems to be acting out her feelings with violence. Although most posts have stated that she will become a hippie, I'm willing to bet that she will pull a "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" stunt and marry a black man to rebell against her parents when she gets older. Now wouldn't that be a kick in the head.
"I'm willing to bet that she will pull a "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" stunt and marry a black man"
LOL
when my my catholic mom brought home my jewish dad in the 60s her parents declared " Couldn't have found a nice black guy instead?"
Maybe I imagined it but didn't Don and others discuss a private bank acct where the statements were not sent to the home but to the office? It was a suggestion for a client. Some Bank or other.
Wait...are, are you telling me... that I've gotta read 147 comments before the show has even started?
Is that what you're telling me? Ah... I don't know if that's what I ahh... want to ahhh...do, going ahead reading all these posts.
What?... I'm actually contributing to the string of pre-show posts?
Whhell! I guess I should step AWAY from the computer!
Is that what you're telling me?
@Grinandbearit: Thanks for the link to the cast picture. I was amazed at how youthful Robert Morse still looks w/o his Bert get-up. He still looks very much like he did in "The Loved One". At least in this picture.
Here's the link to the Draper floorplan. I have a new version, but I messed up the scan and I'll have to rescan it tomorrow and post it tomorrow. It includes Sally's room, the nursery and some other new items. http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu170/mambodeb/
Thanks, all, for looking at my Anna theory and your lovely comments. I appreciate them a lot.
Yes- her italian is from her modeling days with that designer she mentioned to Francine- Giovanni/Gianni/Johnny - when she modeled the clothers for her.
Always with the missionary position, huh Betty?
And what's with Pete always knocking on girl's doors when he's drunk? He's a weasel. Those of you who thought he'd cleaned up his act, I'm thinking not so much.
Not very wise of Pete to pick a girl right down the hall......couldn't he have easily picked up a girl @ a bar that he wouldn't have to worry about seeing again? Surely not every woman in NY left town.
Oh great. The au pair might as well have been fired for the dress stain; now she has to (ahem) pleasure Pete, and probably get caught and fired for that.
I like to watch Madmen for the furnishings too. Does anyone know what they called those geometric cut-outs room dividers like the one in Peter's apartment?
@shuffle-I noticed it right away cuz it is in one of my favorite restaurants in LA called Cecconi's. Maybe it's on their site if u google it. I love that look & have many pics of me in front of it. Actually, MM had some party there a weeks b4 I was there and I missed Hamm :(
Since this was the August episode, I assume everyone was on vacation. How did this advance anything? This was the worst episode that I've seen of Mad Men, sorry to say..
Betty is def Bi-Polar! And now Sally's got it, too. Next week looks sick, I can't even go there, I will wait for all the experts to analyze & read tomorrow.
Why was Betty hot and cold? Because Don was the Rockefeller aide. When she was getting what she wanted -- the delay -- she was happy. WHen she didn't -- when the decision was reversed -- she wasn't, and took it out on Don. The aide represents the fantasy life she wants, with Italian men making passes at her. Don represents reality, and Betty is much much too selfish to want anything to do with reality. Reality is not the realm of the princess.
Are you guys being serious about the bi-polar thing with Betty? I seems to make perfect sense that she can be a different person (happily married to Don, no kids) when they were in Rome and then she returns home, where she is miserable and she remembers the Don that she is married to. I don't know, too simplistic?
Poor Pete, he'll never disappoint us from revealing his weaselly ways. You dumb shmuck!
Poor Betty, if she could dump those kids at the side of the road somewhere, she could have her glamorous life back, away from her stuffy old dingy kitchen, flirting with playboys and collecting first kisses.
Poor Don, he's getting the hang of loving his wife and catching fireflies, and gets an unpredictable reaction from the script.
Poor Joan... I know, say no more, but, poor Joan!!!
Betty gave me a headache. Not to say the episode wasn't good because IT WAS but I still want to reach through the television, grab her by the shoulders & shake her til the curls go flat.
No more storyline on Joan? Must the writters tease us so?
Anybody else feel that Francine rained on Betty's parade? First, she put her and Carleton's "after baby fling" in the same catergory as Betty and Don's trip to Rome. (And we know that Betty considers herself superior). Then, to "ice the cake" Francine implies to Don that Betty has shared all the intimate details of their romantic Rome escapade. That really pissed Betty off. Can't say that I blame Betty for being upset at that last tactic.
Betty's speech to Sally was about comparing the first kiss (Francis) to all those afterward being shadows of the first (Don). Francine is wise to her, and Betty knows it.
"When you have no power, delay." That's what Mrs. Draper is doing with Mr. Francis. She gets off on being a pr--k teaser.
What is up with the Pucci type dress? Is it a nod to the Italian experience or a costume device to show the loosening/relaxation of her personality/emotions?....Gone is the typical crinoline fare that she usually sports.
@MadMenSuze - At the very least, it certainly is not a coincidence that the souvenir that Don chooses to get Betty is a Coliseum charm......a charm symbolizing ruins that she has to look at....eek
Betty is just disappointed to come back to her ho-hum life after the excitement of Rome...even if they did stay in the hotel the whole time. But, instead of trying to re-capture the romance and hang on to it, she blames Don. Strange.
@ TakeFive: YES, I agree Franchine was being a bit of a bit**. And the way Don looked back @ her after she said it should have given her a hint that it wasn't appreciated.
And the "hamlet" mayor (Mark Metcalf) not only was Niedemeyer on Animal House but "The Maestro" in Seinfeld. He and Elaine go to Tuscany. Another Italian reference. tee hee
Yes, Pete Campbell has quite a sense of entitlement, but he is much more complex, interesting, and sympathetic than it might seem at first. I believe he models his (rather inauthentic) mannerisms after Robert Young's, and surely watched Father Knows Best as a kid. (The physical resemblance is striking, don't you think?) Deep down, he's pretty conflicted, about his dad, family, his own feelings for women. He is truly attracted to Peggy -- because she's intelligent and morally complex herself, and that says something positive about who is he and what he wants.
@sallydraper - I'm usually willing to stick up for Pete, and I was tonight too until he got wasted and slept with the German au pair...that was a very sleazy situation and even though he was drunk, I'm surprised he went that far. I guess it's 1 step forward, two steps back with him. Also surprising - that a) he's done this several times before (we know about the model and Peggy, are there other women?) and b) Trudy knows this and is willing to stick with him. Why?
@Maddicts: Could the souvenir be the gift Don bought Betty and she frowned at?
@Fifty two: I've been to the "small hotel" that the song was written about. It's called the Stockton Inn and it's in Bucks County, PA. There is a wishing well and a waterfall outside. Many celebrities stayed there overnight (Bing Crosby, Fred Astaire, etc.). Don't know who this particular rendition is by. I'll listen again.
@adamx6000 - Absolutely. The look on her face when she first sees him was painful. Her recovery was so fascinating to watch as well. She is such a great actress.
And wasn't that corset ribbon in the back of the dress white when it was pulled from the incinerator drop...and then it was pink when Pete handed that aupair the replacement dress?
And for a very upscale co op wow, that hall looked pretty run down and shabby. Since when are items allowed to be left in the hallway in a fancy coop?
there's not a lot of love on this blog for Betty, but every time she's on screen my heart breaks for her. It's so weird that she was raised to believe that she's only as good as she looks (that "house cat" comment from Gene a few episodes ago was the meanest sincere comment I've ever heard) and she has no idea how to even articulate what's wrong, or to recognize that she's got ambition.
and that little Sally Draper will surely be able to handle herself against all the cops in riot gear in a few years. She's got a great left hook.
Left hook is that the correct fight reference? Boxing scares me.
@MadMenSuze, re: the Campbell's Park Ave. co-op, you're right if that were the front entrance, but the hallway Pete was first walking down with his bag of trash is the service entrance or back hallway, generally only used by household staff. Then we see their actual front door when the neighbor comes over.
Bicycles and whatnot are definitely not allowed in the main halls of most co-ops. I live in one too-- not as upscale as Pete's-- but it is a co-op.
@bipolarbear great question, could it be from all the exhaust of the traffic outside?
I have to agree with KBF not the best episode ever still it was good enough that it flew by.
One thing this show has done for me is confirm the vast mysteries of the female mind. what is with you people yes I said You People!
As far as Bobby and Sally fighting, that is so normal. Please let's not project anything dire onto Sally's persona. She was just playing house as we used to call it, or car in this case. And siblings that close in age fought all the time, at least in my experiences at home atnd at friends house's.
@Crowfoot, oh no, I LOVE Betty! She's just so fun to poke fun, but I love her complexity as well. She's just as important to the story, if not more than the Office characters. She's a stahhrr!!!
That looked like normal sibling behavior to me. Every kid out there has probably popped his or her kid sister or kid brother.
And haha, Betty was so concerned about being seen with another man in broad daylight, yet she’s off snogging this dapper don after some town meeting. Heh.
Carla starts talking seriously about Sally's temper and Don immediately finds something else to do. A discipline problem with the kids??? OK, time for Don to check out.
So Joan is new there and she rustled up a freebee dress or what have you for Pete? As the other salesperson pointed out, anybody can sew in a tag and say the dress came from a Bonwit.
That doesn’t seem real, either.
And no: it was never made clear where it was that Trudy went.
I think the bunch of us are grasping at straws is right. And I can hardly wait to see what my local board has to say about this ep.
Well, one can say all they want about Don's unsavory ways, but the contrast between Don choosing, or at least chasing, the willing ones, and old Pete Campbell preying on the weak and vulnerable ones.....blech
Lots of very understated twisting and turning here:
Interesting parallel here of usery of relationships.
Is Henry using business to get Betty in the sack? Is Betty allowing Henry's attraction to her as use as a tool for her cause. Or, is it also her using him for her esteem? Then, Pete using Joan to get the dress, and using the dress to get the girl.
Did you catch the Hermes?
Great line, Joan to Pete: This never happened. Not the dress, Pete meeting her at her new job.
And after they were home and Betty didn't put out with Henry, did you catch where she says the board had a secret meeting and Betty's side may lose?
The many facets of Mrs. Draper:
On one hand Betty is in a very subtle way slowly ebbing in to, or slowly similar of, a metaphor of the idea of a MadWoman. She's employing the element of sex and the boardroom, just underlying rather than overt; one of the basic differences between men and women, overt vs subtle.
Betty is subtle in using Henry. Pete is not so subtle in his overture toward the girl.
Also, Betty and the booze. Booze is a big part of the boardroom. Here we had Betty telling Don she poured him a beer, not girly wine. Betty is also drinking beer at the same time; a little more masculine than feminine. Later Betty pours some nasty flat champagne in a cup and drinks it (January makes a great face there) like the guys at the office would probably do. She takes charge in Italy being the one to speak the language.
But on the other hand as well, Betty's selfishness and esteem issues show up again to conflict with that. She ends up as we learned in the end, not wanting to go to Rome with Don for Don and business, but for herself.
(tangent: remember season 1 when Betty was telling of her experiences in Italy modeling, and the guy "Johnny")? I was thinking that was going to be revisited, in more ways than one.
So she goes to Rome for herself, using Don (again the theme of usery here tonight) to, like a man actually, re-live her own version of glory days. Maybe the equivalent of a guy buying his first sportscar he had years ago when he retires.
Betty then proceeds to walk down the runway if you will as she enters the cafe. The glamorous hair, the walk, the attention. She needs the attention from the men, like she enjoys the attention from Henry.
I found this extremely interesting: At the cafe she plays the role of one of Don's conquests. But she knows he really does that. And she however plays the role anyway and enjoys it. Very, very interesting.
The best line was Betty telling Sally, you'll have a lot of first kisses. Betty is having a new first kiss with this evolution of her in the venture outside the house and into her own version of a business world like her husband has, so to speak in her own way.
Then you have Don. Progressing through this season we've had Don, usually at the end of episodes, showing a quick tender affection toward Betty. Here, this is not his usual Don sex. He's not treating her like his usual conquest, nor is he rolling on top of her saying I had a good dream. He's affectionate. He's attentive to her. He's attentive to her body, appreciative of beauty.
Was Seven Twenty-Three the death date of Don as we had known him?
Then you have the contrast of Don and Pete, yet again regarding their sex this episode. Opposite types of encounters. Yet, both Don and Pete at the same time have a parallel as well; Pete is in the same position Don was at the end of last year. She knows. Yet Pete, just like Don if you notice, won't SAY what he did. Very interesting dynamic between Pete and Don; Here both opposite yet one in the same as well.
So Betty is such a bell curve. On one hand she's exhibiting a growth, a shadow of a MadWoman. But then she falls, similar to the opening credits, back into Betty. Betty as much as she seemed to be coming out of her fog, in the end, we find out she's still only interested in fantasy land. Last episode we saw her alone and her hands wander down south after the meeting with Henry. The washing machine Season 1. Fantasy. Here she's unhappy at the end being back home in reality. Italy was a real life fantasy for her, and she lived it. That's always been what makes her, her. One big conflict with reality and fantasy land in so many ways.
A lot of quid pro quo expected from the men. Henry Francis expected something for his good deed and so did Pete. This will probably start a firestorm, but I think what Pete did is considered rape by coercion. Does anyone remember the Law and Order episode with Regina King as the lady lawyer who was coereced into sleeping with her boss to make partner? The other option is that her boss would ruin her career. Tonight's episode made me think of that. I clearly remember Sam Waterston's delivery to the jury. He was saying things that were examples of rape by coercion (blackmailed into having sex.) Well tonight one of those things could be "sleep with me or I'll make sure you lose you job and are sent back home."
@G, that's great to hear. I feel we're observing the geratest transformation because we're watching somebody find herself. She's clumsy and she's slow but she's doing it. Her comment to Sally about living the shadow of a first kiss is actually very profound. Peggy at least has practical training and a career, and recognizes her amibition, but Betty is on her own.
MMSuze I have been to a few town board meetings in my town, quite boring, but I thought the three Junior Leaguers were going to attack Mr. Francis right there. Enjoyed seeing Bob Cobb in the aforementioned scene.
OMG --DeepDish ...I am so LOL now re: how he took off his shirt..like how a little boy would undress himself?...Davy and Goliath??
The way he bowed his head when "confessing" to Trudy? He is absolutely infantile..but I have to give him points for honesty (with both the neighbor and Trudy)
@MadMenSuze, Joan is a Manager for that department, she has the power to make that kind of call on a return.
Unfortunately, I'll have to reveal myself with this experience in Retail. When a customer is going to potentially make a stink about a return, a Manager must find a reasonable solution to the situation. The damaged dress would be inventoried out as damaged within the store. Ugg! Retail. Poor Joan!!!
By Deep Dish on October 4, 2009 11:49 PM
Okay guys, help out. Does any man take off a shirt the way Pete did? And laughing out loud at cartoons? Tell the truth
My EX-husband..but then theres reasons hes an ex
some guys take dress shirts off like that so as not to pull the button holes out of shape if they are hand taylored
Did this episode accomplish ANYTHING in terms of pushing the story forward? I mean, we already knew Betty wasn't happy, knew she had a crush on Mr. Francis, knew that Pete was a cad, etc. We learned that Joan has a new job, and that's pretty much it. Is the big mystery of this season whether Sally will be able to overcome her inner rage? We only get 13 or so episodes. It just befuddles me why they would waste one, and this felt like a waste. I don't get it. It doesn't feel like we've moved one inch from last week.
@ Crowfoot: Don't get me wrong, I like Betty, she just frustrates me sometimes. She went from the highs of Rome to the lows of day-to-day life which isn't all that bad for her. It reminded me too of Revolutionary Road, lets hope Bettie's story ends way better than that did. That last scene (for me) was like: "What happened???" She had me going that the episode would end on a good note & then BAM, the reality check. The neighbor, the kids, the house, a new baby & no more Rome. But I did enjoy seeing her happy when she was in Rome.
Oh no he is still in the picture and has been advised to leave the glamours life of surgery for a career of head shrinking because it is the latest cutting edge science! translation he cant kill anyone.
@MadMenSuze: Greg is in the picture. I've seen plot outlines for upcoming episodes. Auburn Annie posted them on this board a few weeks ago. There was a spoiler alert. I don't think I'm giving anything away to say that Joan didn't leave her husband in the last couple of weeks.
And to the person who said there was no previous mention of where Trudy was, it wasn't mentioned in this episode, but in past seasons it's been discussed that her parents either have or rent a summer home.
I, too, wondered about the rat doctor...she seemed to pick "psychiatry" out of thin air just to end the conversation about him.
Joan looked beautiful...loved her new hair style and the lavender dress.
How much do you want to bet that au pair will be knocking on Pete and Trudy's door in 9 months with a bundle of joy all for them just before she hightails it back to Germany.
I felt for both Betty and Pete in this episode, and I don't think it is a coincidence that they were both featured in compromising positions.
Yes, Pete was a weasel, but this season has shown his growth, however snail-paced. If this was Season 1, we would not see Pete's remorse, because there wouldn't have been any. He is surely grasping the grown-up-intimacy-with-spouse thing a lot quicker than Don, who is years into his marriage, with kids, and continues to be unfaithful.
And Betty! So in her element in Rome, and what a letdown, arriving back in surburbia, with its pettiness - nosy neighbors, etc. She had an emotionally honest reveal with her daughter, about first kisses, just as Pete had a true emotional reveal with Trudy...privileged people having to grasp the nuances of honest everyday give and take...and while I agree with the earlier poster who said she was purposefully 'delaying' things with Mr. Francis, I also think there was true guilt when she glanced at the ridiculous fainting couch before having her kiss talk with Sally...truly complex characters!
@Greg: more disturbing than telling her she would have a lot of first kisses is that she said every kiss after is just a shadow. Yikes. "Sally, just go be a ho."
Was Betty's scarf a Hermes? I'd be lying if said I could tell the difference.
@MadMenSuze and Crowfoot, I laughed when Joan suggested that Rapie might be switching his specialty to Psychiatry (she spat the word out), it sounded like he was looking into it as a patient! Ha!
@tamtam - Absolutely the truth that Pete becomes the sexual aggressor only in situations where the woman is in a subservient role: Peggy, the model (she was trying to get that job at SC right?), this poor au-pair. Completely the opposite of Don who is attracted (in affairs) to women with power and/or mystery and/or strength, etc. This was a new low for Campbell.
oh, and why was it hotter at night (needing fans) than in the day (did not need fans). notice the fan is off when she comes back in from the dry cleaners.
@ Deep Dish - i interpreted that completely differently: I thought Betty could finally identify what's making her so unhappy and she's advising her daughter to take more time than she did. But Sally is, what, 10 years old? Betty's comment wouldn't make any sense to her.
I agree with those who found Pete's ultimate motivation towards helping Frau Drescher, shallow , base, and loathsome. Maybe I am the lucky recipient of never having to resort to trickery or bullying to aquire sex as I grew up in a time when women enjoyed sex as much as men.
As I stated a few posts back, not my favorite episode, a lack of humor was detrimental to the whole show tonight. I did however roar one time when Pete said "Let me speak to the manager" clerk replies "of the entire store" and Pete retorts " Of the Republic of dresses.
I can't recall any extended scenes with Joan and Pete before. any tips on that?
I think Pete felt so bad because he more or less raped the poor nanny. If she refused him,he could possibly tell her employer's about the dress. Or as he showed her, be willing to make up a total lie. Just like when he told her to just say one of the kids did it, "they have a girl don't they?"
Once I was sent to the Carlisle Hotel to be a temporary switchboard operator. In the lobby, a gilded door opened up into the switchboard room which looked like crap, very shabby and messy.
Joan and another bloody dress.
Loved the glamorous sexy hotel vacation, and Betty having an effect on Don.
That episode for me was part romance and part total bummer. I'm not sure how Betty responded to Henry Francis. It seemed like she was dissapointed by his not so subtle seduction technique. I thought he showed himself to be very forward, not a gentlemanly seducer at all. If I were in her shoes, I would write him off right there. He was just too demanding, "So I did you a favour, now can you sleep with me?" I'd think he was a creep. In contrast, Duck, last week, was not making any promises to Peggy. She asked about being copy chief and he told her, "maybe, after they get used to you." And when she asked about Hermes and Paris, he honestly let her know that it's the Hermes people who come to New York, not the other way around. Say what you will about Duck, but he is looking a lot better than Pete and Henry Francis, and at least he's not a married philanderer like Don.
Pete may have majored in business at college and minored in rape along with his other fat bothers, as did his neighbor, who I waited with baited breath to punch his lights out, but turned out to be a 'bother'. What a couple a tools.
KBF--I hear ya. Especially the part about only 13 episodes a season. An episode like this makes you ask yourself: "why am I watching this again?" As I said earlier, we have definitely hit soap opera territory. I thought MW said he wanted to avoid that? It's as if the writers don't know ultimately where they are going. Somebody posted a link to an article a couple weeks ago (Vanity Fair?) that I read where MW basically said he had S1 in his head for years and he wrote that, but that was basically it. I'm really beginning to believe MW has no idea where this is going. I swear, if this ends like the Sopranos I will be P*SSED!!!!!
I am pretty certain the replacement dress had a different color ribbon in the back – maybe the wife noticed that the ribbon was not the same color and hence, it was not the same dress. Could be the au pair got in huge trouble over the dress switch incident, or maybe even fired.
@NeverNotTasty - yeah one of the reasons I'm having a really hard time with this episode is that as scummy and awful as Pete has been in the past, his infidelities (that we've seen, although Trudy stomping off suggested maybe more?) have been consensual. Peggy dragged him into her apartment, the model was totally into sleeping with him. The situation with the au pair was definitely not consensual, although it wasn't what Greg did to Joan either. But it made me extremely uncomfortable regardless and also sad - I honestly didn't think he'd actually basically force the girl to sleep with him. I thought he'd get rebuffed or one of the little kids would wake up or the boyfriend would still be there.
I guess I must like soap opras, because I thought this episode was great. It made me think that maybe the reason Don fools around, is because he can't do anything right in Betty's eyes.
Crowfoot. True, and I love Sally's innocence: "But I already did it." I'm not even going to take this to the next level. Poor Sally.
Hobo: "The Republic of Dresses" I am so going to use that ... the republic of whatever. And exactly WHEN did you grow up? just kidding. We like you just the way you are.
I think you are right, now that I think about it, did Pete and Joan ever have a conversation?
PREDICTION: Next week opens with Joan. Something's brewing.
Let me preface what I'm about to say with a plea that you please don't hate me, because I don't mean it to come out as catty as it's going to, BUT...:
I can't help whether January Jones has had botox injections, especially in her forehead. She always has such a flat affect even when she purses her lips in frustration or fusses at Don. Or maybe JJ is that good an actress to be able to control her facial expressions that completely. Either way, it's a little disconcerting to me.
I know Betty is one big walking repression, but a little bit of subtle facial expression wouldn't be out of line.
On another line, near the end of the episode, when Don asked her what was wrong and she was enumerating the things she hated, I thought she was about to say, "I hate the kids, I hate my life."
Also, yay for seeing Joan again! I did notice that her hair looked a little less styled, like maybe money was tight enough that she hadn't been going to the beauty shop as often as when she worked at SC. Regardless, she still knows what to do in a sticky situation.
Loved Don's line, "You're tiny!" when Betty took off her shoes. In fact, loved seeing the two of them flirting with one another.
Did anyone but me notice the more classic way Joan was dressed for her Retail Management job? Not the loud, sexy, see my boo bs kind of dresses she was always wearing at SC? Proof if your going to sell women's clothing to women you aren't trying to appear sexy, you're trying to appear put together.
Oh, stop all this blubbering about the pace and lack of action in these episodes. I savor each one like a fine glass of grape juice. I swish and roll it around in my mouth, then squirt it back into the glass, then drink it again. Mmmm...'Mad Men.'
Mmm...Don, look at that view!
@Bipolarbear not cracking wise as is my penchant, the "You People" of course refers to women. Don took her to Italy ,role played had some sex ,bought her a trinket, and she is pissed. It seemed to me like Don hit the ball out of the park, and now she is sending him to the bench. I never read that men are from mars and women are from krypton book, so if you can help a brother out, and save me the cost of a book ,please do so.
I wanted to wait and try to digest the episode (twice) before I commented on what was my first impression. Unfortunately, I have to stick with my impression, that being disappointment. I too agree that nothing substantial was really accomplished here. It felt like fluff. Okay, sure, even MM fluff is better then the best episode of, say, NCIS, or something like that. But, yeah, disappointing.
@giantsfan21: I've been a big Pete supporter. You may have seen me agree with you either today or late last night that I also thought he was not as black as he's painted. But right now I'm truly shocked and saddened by what he did. That was a really young girl who did not know what to do with him and was too scared and too inexperienced to call his bluff. That to me was much worse than Joan's rape. This was stranger rape.
@Betty Crocker: I look forward to hearing from you, with your legal background, on this topic. I can see that in 1963 that would not have constiututed rape but what about now?
Hermes was in Joan's store, the sign. My fault, I could have worded that better.
But funny you mentioned Gianni, I actually almost typed that spelling (although I still would have gotten it wrong bc I would have spelled it Gionni) but I remembered how she had said he loved America so he called himself Johnny/Gianni, so I chose Johnny. I really thought she was going to look him up while Don was busy.
And I thought it was flat champagne because she gives the face of drinking not so savory booze, having a little trouble downing it. Or maybe it's warm wine. And, she pours two fingers into the cup. It's interesting either way but it was the face she makes is why i thought that.
@hobocode: jan001 said it: Betty is just big walking repression. As long as she's modeling (walking the runway at the restaurant in Rome) and getting oodles of male attention, she's fulfilled. Or, as fulfilled as Betty can be. She is completely unchallenged and bored to death with her life. While she was in Rome she felt great about herself. Women who feel great about themselves want sex -- a lot! Women who don't feel great about themselves (or, in some cases their men) don't want sex. For the poor, average male, this is very hard to read or understand.
@by G: I agree with you. It was the same on the Soprano's chat room. If someone didn't get whacked every episode they cried in their beer. This show is like fine wine. Don't gulp it, sip it and enjoy!
@Hobo: Your GINTS won today. Smile!
I enjoyed the flirty pretend-we're strangers-in-front-of these Italian-men scene too. Rare that we've seen that kind of playful, sexy chemistry between Don and Betty lately. It reminded me of a Cary Grant/Audrey Hepburn kind of scene. And it really boosted Betty's spirits. Unfortunately, the small charm -- (thanks for identifying it as the colesium)--
just reminded Betty that their "escapade" was just that -- akin to a trinket to remind her of the two great days they've had in the last 365.
Yes, I thought Betty did have a bit of a "Joy" aura about her -- and the Rome trip a bit of the Palm Springs cachet.
My favorite line: When Betty asks Don what the smell is, Don's reply is:
And is it generally pretty much an unspoken rule in certain countries that a woman unescorted does not speak to an unescorted man? (Especially in the year 1963, when rules and wherefores were a great deal more rigid?)
That’s the story I got from a friend of mine – you cannot casually say “hi” to a male stranger when you’re in Italy or any other country — I was also told that if a woman did indeed do that, she’d be looked upon as more or less a prostitute. So if what I heard is correct, Betty made a major gaffe, etiquette wise, when she was in Rome.
like California in season two, I think the art department did a good job in creating a contrast universe in Rome that had none of that Alfred Hitchcock look they always have for New York. I really felt that Don and Betty were thousand miles away, even when in reality they probably never left Hollywood.
In season two, California had this very early James Bond Movie/Stanley Kubrick feel to me. Since this season was in Rome, it might have been molded after Fellini.
It seams that Rome was meant to have a very modern look that shows a new civilization built over an old one. A civilization that has once had morals and civil oppression that no longer works in modern times. Like the morals and civil oppression that will soon change in America in the time Mad Men.
NNT it seems to me the neighbor was upset in the way someone would be bothered if you borrowed their lawnmower without asking.
And Pete come on dude how do you cheat that close to home.
@DeepDish and others laugh at cartoons , sure at Davey and Goliath not so sure and I have never personally taken off a shirt like that. I thought Pete shirtless resembled a teenage boy, which is what I guess he is at heart when it comes to the opposite sex.
Written while watching so as not to forget anything- so here is my stream of consciousness...
Henry - drat!
I'm hoping Betty's decision to go to Rome means she regrets the kiss with Henry. I thought the scene at the ristorante was so cute between her and Don. The comments of the two Italian men serve as a reminder of the European attitude towards "ugly Americans" and that it is not recent.
Pete! It was too much to hope he got the dress fixed just because he wanted to be helpful. But now he's looking guilty and near tears - about kids, as Trudy thinks, about the au pair - which?? Now that was unexpected!
Poor Joan - I felt so bad for her seeing Pete at the department store, but as always, she handled the surprise with a clear head. I imagine she expected this may happen at any time. If Dr. Raper goes into psychiatry, he may be rich after all.
I loved Betty's talk with Sally. Memoirs of a time when romance was everything and hopping into bed wasn't de rigeur. Hopefully it will make her think twice about taking up with Henry - especially for the sake of the reservoir stuff. And from her conversation with Francine, perhaps she really is done with that. Francine definitely seemed to be insinuating something - wonder if she saw anything. I was amazed Betty didn't look around before kissing Henry.
Betty was unhappy when Francine reminisced over her trip away with her husband - not inclined to share about reconnecting with Don in a similar way and wanted to be rid of her. It seems as though Francine may be fishing for info on Henry and not the trip with Don and Betty sensed it. Looks also as though she wants to divorce herself of her present life and perhaps only because she fears discovery.
Betty seems unable to be free to be who she was in Rome while at home and the romance of their getaway is stuffed down - to her the time away is just a "story of when we went to Rome." What a putdown of his sweet, romantic gesture. However, one wonders about the Colosseum as a charm. A love tryst as entertainment for the empowered? I did have to wonder why Betty was dressed in such an uncharacteristic way. "Tarted up."
Don is still feeling sentimental while Betty is back to being emotionally distant. Perhaps she is feeling he was only responding to her overt display of sexuality and is let down. Once again, I find their lack of being on the same page tragic.
While she spoke to Sally, it seemed as if a new softness might become a part of her - and now - is she also confronting both their past indiscretions and unable to look beyond them?
Pete at the end - seems to have been regretting the au pair, telling Trudy he didn't want to vacation apart again, and making cute chit chat to bring them closer together. Looks as though his emotional fulfillment is on the ascendency and Don is out in the cold - again.
@TakeFive: My bf, who died a few years ago, and I played the same game when we were at a NYC nightclub one night when some men were trying to pick me up. It was so much fun. This brought back great memories for me.
@TakeFive: Good point. On top of Betty's personal problems, it doesn't help that she has to wait for a trip to Rome to get her husband's attention. Literally the MINUTE they came home and got thru the door, first family problem (Carla saying there's a problem with Sally) and he walks away.
Say what you will about Betty, but Don chooses which parts of that marriage/family thing he wants to do, and which ones he doesn't. For everything Don decides he doesn't want to deal with, Betty has no choice but to deal with it. As someone said in the last thread: Don always gets to play good cop to Betty's bad cop with the kids. She's there for all the parenting. He swoops in whenever he wants, and swoops back out just as quickly. My hubby pulled that, not only would he not have a wife, he would NEVER see his kids. Not if I'm the only one doing the real parenting.
Guys, can Betty just be dissapointed in her life and not be seen as taking it out on Don? Last week he was taking his unhappiness out on her big time while she was doing all that was expected of her. Of course she has the right to know about his career plans. It directly affects her. Then he storms out and dissappears for the night returning home with a busted face.
Today Betty didn't act over the moon. And for that some of you think she's an ungrateful so and so. Really, his behaviour last week was 10 times as bad.
@bipolarbear, thanks I'll be here all week.
No, not really, but there is a two drink minimum.
@adamX6000, I concur with the out of town set design, and the Italians looked as if they were flown in.
I am not one who engages in foreshadowing like others on this forum, but, you knew there was a but coming, I guess the Yanqui Go Home line will be repeated as this series moves ahead in time. Or maybe it's just a coincidence
I was also hoping for a longer scene with Connie and Betty
Betty was drinking 'aqua minerale', the Perrier of its time in Italy. You couldn't drink the water. I thought it was weird they didn't need to get shots before going abroad. We did.
Did anyone think "The Seven Year Itch" with Pete being left alone in the hot summertime with an uncontrollable urge? And YES, he blamed Trudy, who now doesn't care about having children. "You're my husband. I want what you want." Right...
Notice how Betty made Don turn her around when he was kissing her neck, so she could fantasize about Henry.
I thought Betty's talk with Sally was really about talking to herself. Looking at the fainting couch brought him back to her.
I know I shouldn't go here but, did women wear bikini panties then? My mother didn't, and she had some very lovely lingerie.
Pete looked like a little boy throughout the episode-- eating cereal and watching kiddie shows, that knit shirt tucked in, the hangdog look, the water balloon filled with ketchup at the office... What does Trudy see in him??
Loved Bobby chanting that "sittin' in a tree" rhyme we all said constantly in those days to any kid who revealed a crush.
I think that it is pretty funny that they have Pete watching Davey and Goliath of all shows.
As I seem to recall, Davey and Goliath was nothing but a bunch of morality lessons for children --wrapped up in a cartoon/claymation format. I believe that it was put out by some consortium of Lutheran churches. Everything is placed in MM with the utmost care and precision. A nice little morality tale for Pete, dumbed down for his easy digestion?
At first the coliseum charm seemed paltry compared to what may have been expected, but on second thought the sentiment of it was real to Don and that was very touching and sweet.
I agree with Goodstuff. The flirting scene between Don and Betty was awkward. Don is too linguistically spare to be good at flirting. He's handsome and successful but I don't see how his style ends up sweeping women off their feet so often, unless they like a guy who seems indifferent. The Italian guys may have been good-looking boors but they knew how to flirt.
Agree with Zerelda - Joan was beautiful in that dress. Loved her hairstyle and necklace, too! Her wearing of solid colors suits her so well. Has she worn any prints, ever? I do remember one outfit with plaid in the bodice but don't remember others.
And Douglas C. Neidermeyer. I did not recognize that actor. I remember in "Animal House" he drizzled spittle whenever he spoke.
Oh my gosh, I just watched the episode again, and I don't know how I missed the obvious parallel to Betty being on a Roman Holiday...the princess gets to shirk her duties and be fancy free for a few days...even her hair and dress was utter Audrey Hepburn, although I think it was closer to Breakfast at Tiffany's attire...
I could be wrong here, but I think she is done with Henry Francis...did anyone notice the quick scene of her driving away after her kiss with Henry? She is looking at him in her rear-view mirror, a sign (I think) that she is already leaving him behind; the kiss was anti-climatic. The whole first kiss speech with Sally at the end, too symbolizes this; any further activity with Henry will just be a 'shadow' of the whole wooing dance; Henry went in for the kill way too soon. Betty's coldness with Don at the end was her realization that it was an end to the whole Roman Holiday interlude, which also included Henry.
@eygptbelle: The Italian guys were just creepy with their obvious pick-up lines. Guys like that usually get something really crude from me in return. There's nothin' worse than an over obvious pick-up line.
Got carried away with italics. Meant to italicize only the word "style". Sorry.
I felt sorry for Don - the expression on his face when Betty nearly rejected his gift. He seemed to have no clue, as if he were wondering, "I thought she'd enjoy this, but would she only respond to diamond earrings?"
And what's with Betty? "I hate this place, I hate this town, I hate our friends." Someone is ready to move on. So different from the Betty of season one. Her very curt "Good night Francine." said so much more. She is so done.
Did you notice how she looked longingly at the fainting couch?
And was Don doing his own laundry?? He carried something in the back and I think we could hear it while Betty was on the phone.
And one more thing: STILL NO AIR CONDITIONING? Does anybody else think Don is still punnishing Betty for having the salesman in "his" house?
@egyptbelle I do remember that Joan wore a black dress with large red flowers along the neckline (maybe on the skirt? don't recall) when she and Greg had his "bosses" over for dinner and drinks, the night she played the accordion.
That's Neidermeyer?? Wow! Great catch, all who did!
On a positive note, I thought the scenes with Betty and Don in Rome were out of some romantic 60's film, like Two for the Road (though it has an unhappy ending) or something with Julie Christie. Both Don and Betty looked gorgeous. Jon Hamm is so the modern day equivalent of Gregory Peck or Cary Grant. Those scenes for me were perfect and perfectly sexy. And dreamlike. Loved the sophisticated game they played.
To the poster who suggested Betty would be considered to be acting like a prostitute by sharply returning the conversation of pesky unwanted strangers: You'd prefer she sit there like a mute absorbing abuse? Really? What about Audrey Hepburn's character in Roman Holiday? I've never heard anyone say anything bad about that character. And that film was set in the 50's.
OK, I have to re-think my "has JJ had botox in her forehead" thing. In the scene where Henry walks Betty to her car, and they talk with the car door open, as she tells him thank you, her eyebrows definitely go up, very briefly but very naturally. So I guess that flat affect thing is intentional.
@Jan001: You're right, I forgot about the beautiful dress Joan wore when she had the dinner party. Her necklace was gorgeous tonight, but hope to see her back wearing her pen soon.
@MadMenSuze - Pete's place looked so run down that I figured it was a flashback for a while!
And "snogging this dapper don" Love it!!! Also, I have the feeling Joan paid for that dress herself, if only to keep up the appearance she was in some sort of exalted position at Bonwit.
@ Shelby123 - I think "The Rise and Fall" may be the metaphor for the entire series.
@ Deep Dish - I'm sure there are guys who do the shirt thing - and as far as laughing at cartoons, I wonder if they ever get over them. What else explains the popularity of "The Simpsons?"
@greg - thanks for reminding me about the "board's secret meeting." No wonder Betty's radar was up with Francine! Your take on the cafe interaction is very informed - very interesting viewpoint! As always, your insights really make me think. It so explains Betty's letdown - fantasy colliding with reality, and what makes Betty happy is to feel she is living a fantasy.
The Colosseum - "Love Among the Ruins" oh, you've gone and done it again, Greg!
On second viewing of the final scenes, I noted Betty is still a little playful with Don in the morning of the first day back, but by the end of the day, even after her tender scene with Sally, a day with the kids brought reality crashing down, although the conversation with Francine still seems to have precipitated her sour note. She seemed downright upset that Francine had had a similar experience. Since she feels superior to Francine, it seems that Francine having great getaway diminishes her own experience to something mundane. No more feeling fantastically special.
@bipolarbear, so true about Betty feeling good about herself in Rome and ready for sex, and not so good about herself at home - especially now that poor "ordinary" Francine was wooed as well. How petty is Betty!
@NNT - I think rape by coercion is very apt. As noted upthread by others, Don at least has willing partners, and Pete's always to be in an unequal position of consent. He's now repentant with Trudy, but what about the fallout for the devastated au pair?
G, you're right - the neighbor is a tool as well - he's only worried that his peace is being disturbed. Or, perhaps it's more than that, and this is his "genteel" way of skirting the issue.
@nikita_ava - yes, Pete is light years beyond the much longer married Don when it comes to becoming aware of spousal intimacy and what it entails. If Betty didn't succeed in extinguishing his desire to please her in small ways, perhaps Don will continue to grow into his marriage. However, all marriages are indeed a series of steps forward and backward, and of allowing healing and forgiveness of trauma if they are to survive as intimate and not distant relationships.
@jan001 - your word, "disconcerting" for Betty's lack of affect - that's what I've been feeling ever since the beginning. I, too, am not sure if it is just January's way of expressing Betty's repression or just a lack of depth. It is so flat that it leaves me with the creepiest feeling.
@hobocode - no, you are not out in left field - Don did great in Rome and afterward - there just seems to be too much baggage here for Betty to overcome. Their actions of betrayal and her desire to live in LaLa Land forever seem to have thwarted the expected outcome.
"Roman Holiday" - a toast to you astute Maddicts!
Pete needn't worry; Joan is nothing if not discreet.
I think an alternate title for this episode could be "The IceQueen Returneth."
This site is slower than I've ever seen it - just won't reload, so please don't shoot me if everything I've said is totally redundant by the time it appears!
@MadMenSuze - Pete's place looked so run down that I figured it was a flashback for a while!
And "snogging this dapper don" Love it!!! Also, I have the feeling Joan paid for that dress herself, if only to keep up the appearance she was in some sort of exalted position at Bonwit.
@ Shelby123 - I think "The Rise and Fall" may be the metaphor for the entire series.
@ Deep Dish - I'm sure there are guys who do the shirt thing - and as far as laughing at cartoons, I wonder if they ever get over them. What else explains the popularity of "The Simpsons?"
@greg - thanks for reminding me about the "board's secret meeting." No wonder Betty's radar was up with Francine! Your take on the cafe interaction is very informed - very interesting viewpoint! As always, your insights really make me think. It so explains Betty's letdown - fantasy colliding with reality, and what makes Betty happy is to feel she is living a fantasy.
The Colosseum - "Love Among the Ruins" oh, you've gone and done it again, Greg!
On second viewing of the final scenes, I noted Betty is still a little playful with Don in the morning of the first day back, but by the end of the day, even after her tender scene with Sally, a day with the kids brought reality crashing down, although the conversation with Francine still seems to have precipitated her sour note. She seemed downright upset that Francine had had a similar experience. Since she feels superior to Francine, it seems that Francine having great getaway diminishes her own experience to something mundane. No more feeling fantastically special.
@bipolarbear, so true about Betty feeling good about herself in Rome and ready for sex, and not so good about herself at home - especially now that poor "ordinary" Francine was wooed as well. How petty is Betty!
@NNT - I think rape by coercion is very apt. As noted upthread by others, Don at least has willing partners, and Pete's always to be in an unequal position of consent. He's now repentant with Trudy, but what about the fallout for the devastated au pair?
G, you're right - the neighbor is a tool as well - he's only worried that his peace is being disturbed. Or, perhaps it's more than that, and this is his "genteel" way of skirting the issue.
@nikita_ava - yes, Pete is light years beyond the much longer married Don when it comes to becoming aware of spousal intimacy and what it entails. If Betty didn't succeed in extinguishing his desire to please her in small ways, perhaps Don will continue to grow into his marriage. However, all marriages are indeed a series of steps forward and backward, and of allowing healing and forgiveness of trauma if they are to survive as intimate and not distant relationships.
@jan001 - your word, "disconcerting" for Betty's lack of affect - that's what I've been feeling ever since the beginning. I, too, am not sure if it is just January's way of expressing Betty's repression or just a lack of depth. It is so flat that it leaves me with the creepiest feeling.
@hobocode - no, you are not out in left field - Don did great in Rome and afterward - there just seems to be too much baggage here for Betty to overcome. Their actions of betrayal and her desire to live in LaLa Land forever seem to have thwarted the expected outcome.
"Roman Holiday" - a toast to you astute Maddicts!
Pete needn't worry; Joan is nothing if not discreet.
I think an alternate title for this episode could be "The IceQueen Returneth."
This site is slower than I've ever seen it - just won't reload, so please don't shoot me if everything I've said is totally redundant by the time it appears!
I watched it twice and I still think I saw Roger coming down the steps in the hotel in Rome.
Check it out, center frame, right after the diesel, rubber moment.
I was kind of disappointed at last nights' episode.
I just don't see sparks between Betty and Don, wherever they are. Betty speaking Italian to impress who? Maybe to show Don how superior she is?
And then, when she was basking in the attention of the Italian men at the cafe, Don arrives, she doesn't say that he is her husband. He asks what they are saying, and she tells him they said he was ugly! What the hell!!
They get home, Don tries to be amorous, she rebuffs him, and him she hates where they live, hates their friends?? After she is just speaking with her "best friend" Francine.
Don goes to the trouble of finding her a gold charm for her charm bracelet, has Connie ship it over, she is obviously disappointed by the look on her face, and he sheepishly says I'll have it put on your bracelet.
I know Don is no angel, but, Betty is a cold cold fish!!
I don't like the whole story line with the Gov.'s guy either.
And all of a sudden good old faithful Carla shows up to watch the kids at the last minute.
What is wrong with Pete? Is this his MO now, get drunk and show up for sex in the middle of the night!! I hope that poor girl does not wind up pregnant. Of course, there's a story line...she carries the baby, can't go home to Germany because of the shame, Pete fesses up to Trudy, and they adopt the baby.
A few scenes were touching.
Sally and Ernie driving in the bath tub.
Joan at Bonwit Teller. Something is not right with her story....she was putting on a good show for Pete, her face and body language said it all when he left. I hope she gets back to SC soon!!
I did get a kick out of seeing the Hermes sign at the store counter (to remind us of last week)?
Oh well, enough from me...I'm going to some other threads.
@fifty-two I too thought of The Seven Year Itch with Pete being left on his own in the sweltering city while Trudy went away to the cool beach (the Hamptons no doubt).
I loved your comment about "When you have no power, delay" being exactly what Betty was doing to
Mr Francis. She let him have his one kiss then shut him down.
And as several others have mentioned, I'd love to know how Betty got that flat belly in just 2 months since giving birth, especially not breast-feeding, which really helps get rid of the baby wt.
Had to laugh at the Italian saying Don was ugly. Soooo not true. Even exhausted from travel he looked fabulous. And it was fun to see D&B being flirty and physical with each other, even if it was short lived.
Maybe a little 'Roman Holiday', but too modern. Gregory Peck is too wooden for my taste, yet Don is so much more sinful with his cigarettes and silence.
Betty's experience alone reminds me more of Julie Christie in 'Darling', with her dizzy, immature, spontaneous adventure of uncontrollable seduction of those men.
Anybody else have trouble getting back here last night?
I thought the fire marshall may have raided the joint for overcrowding.
G. - notice the posting times - nothing between about 1 a.m. and 5 a.m. - unusual for Maddicts! Then when I was finally able to post and tried to refresh the page to see if anyone else was able to post - it posted my comments again! Of course, it was a ridiculously long post the first time!
@60's child, the Italians really did say Don was ugly and were completely unflattering - although she could have chosen to tell him the statement they made about him being an American millionaire instead. However, she did have an intimate, teasing tone.
@egyptbelle - Agreed. Nothing worse than an obvious come-on line that is completely vacant of any subtlety.
To all the women here who have been to Italy, Rome in particular, this is accurate though isn't it? I hate to say this but I have been to Rome several times, as a teenager on up, and the men would be so obvious and crude. I am not flattering myself here because you don't have to be a supermodel to get attention in Rome - especially when they find out you're American.
I see many people agreed with my earlier comment that the souvenir, the Colosseum (Coliseum?), signified the ruins of Don and Betty's marriage. I do think that the amorous exchange between them though was genuine because as we know from the past, Betty is very sexually attracted to Don. I don't really think it was displaced desire from Mr. Francis. But I think further that this added to her annoyance once back at home - she is angry with herself for continuing to be so attracted to Don when she knows that he treats her disrepectfully.
I think the whole thing mirrored what happened between them when they were separated and then had to go to Gene's house when he had a heart attack and they made love during the night. Her bond to Don is sexual at it's core and in both situations, Don is genuinely surprised by the flip-flop that comes later.
I'll have to watch again. I base my observations on watching the episode once.
I didn't hear anything about him losing the account. I think he made some comment to Betty about them blowing Conrad off, staying in the room having sex, instead of having breakfast with him.
Are we being too hard on the people who maintain this website blog? I have nothing to compare it to, but it fills up so quickly. The page used to open up with “Season 3 Episode 8 - Open Thread” but now that is a subcategory under “Open Threads for Each Episode”. I was trying to make a comment on Friday while this was happening and it didn’t go through, so I signed out and tried again later.
Very awed by all the compassionate, cruel, and absurd psychological insights.
Joan’s purple dress ... I remember passing Bonwit Teller’s and being enticed by the white awnings with sprays of violets.
I think the deal with Betty using her Italian was not to make Don feel inferior but rather to impress him, since he treats her as an afterthought so often. She's not only lovely but educated, intelligent. She can go to Italy and not be an "ugly American" or a gape-jawed tourist with a camera. She doesn't have to accept flattery by some panting Italian lout. But she's pleased to be noticed; she knows she's in an element she only experiences on those rare forays into Manhattan for a special evening with Don. Italy let her forget she's just a housewife, albeit a more privileged than usual one, with three kids waiting at home. There she could be a princess - and as a blonde, she's even more desirable - and she speaks worthy Italian too.
The post by eyyptbelle October 5, 2009 1:19 AM is the last post before this site went haywire. It refused to load after that. I tried leaving the site completely. The main MM site worked, but the moment I clicked "talk forum" the page went blank and it was unable to load.
I'm guessing when the West Coast Maddicts try to join us, the site is overwhelmed and locks up.
Man oh man I was so happy to see the return of Don's blue sports coat from the Jet Set episode!!! I love that thing... I think I read somewhere where Janie Bryant made it... wish there was a way I could get one!
I agree with several of the other posters who indicated this episode wasn't one of their favorites. I guess you need to give credit to MW for creating so many compelling charactors and situations that when he takes an indepth look at one story-line (Don & Betty), he's bound to not give as much air time to the others.
Did anyone else think that Betty suddenly decided to accompany Don to Rome in order to remove herself from temptation (Henry Francis)? You would think that she would have been more satisfied with her trip with Don, but I suppose after enjoying herself so much in Rome, the reality of once again dealing with her mundate suburban life came crashing down on her pretty hard. I for one can be abit of a bear the first day back from vacation.
Early in the episode Pete indicated that he liked New York in August, that it was quiet and reminded him of when he was a boy. His later scene eating cereal and watching cartoons certainly backs this up. He totally reverts to someone who has to have his needs met immediately (no delayed gratification for our boy Pete).
So can we speculate what will happen next week? Kinsey and the boys sure sound worried.
Pete asked Joan not to mention the dress to Trudy. Unsaid is that he won't mention where she's working to anyone at the office, just that he ran into her at a department store and her husband was looking at psychiatry. Maybe he can go into practice with Dr. Wayne. :-)
Sally kissed Ernie, not vice versa.
60'schild -
Don made a comment to Betty before he hit the shower to order some breakfast because Connie will want a full account (of how it was presented, speed of service and taste.)
Nine months later:
"His name is Schwantz, ahem, Hans, for a wish his mother never was able to do."
Henry wants a lot more than just a passive kiss from Betty. He shows his power when the "block" on the reservoir issue may be removed at the secret board meeting. If Betty really wants it stopped, there's a price to be paid for his assistance. Her not wanting sex with Don is after she finds out the block was removed. (Hard to think about having sex with one guy when you're afraid you'll have to have sex with another.) Which is why she's bummed when she sees the charm bracelet token.
Are they not showing other intimate moments with Don and Betty, or was, before Rome, the last connection when she got pregnant?
Well, my point is...let's say they weren't having sex any other time. So, if true, then Betty likes to do it when it's almost like "forbidden." She and Don were in her home bedroom when she got pregnant and now off in seductive Rome. Is part of this thrill the "naughtiness" of it? (if my theory is correct.)
Moe, I agree that Betty's last minute decision to go to Rome was to avoid temptation.
Yep, Pete cracked me up eating cereal and watching cartoons. And how about the way he took off his shirt? Too funny! Just like a kid who doesn't want to deal with the buttons.
Why would Betty speak Italian just to impress/downplay Don or anyone? She's speaking Italian simply because she can and because she's IN ITALY. It's a sexy language and it looks like she enjoys speaking it. The Rome setting made think of Roman Holiday and also The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone (a Tennessee Williams work). Although Betty is obviously not the age of Mrs Stone - there is a desperateness about her. Loved the Pucci dress she brought back from Rome and wears in the last scenes.
Don is trying to be a good husband, I think just like the Sing Sing Guard in the hospital waiting room, they both wanted a new beginning. It is difficult to be a good husband with a wife like Betty. But then again, Im sure she has every reason to be the way she is. It was exciting to see the Drapers acting as if they were hooking up in a far away city, Betty was able to stifle her disdain for her husband and pretend she was being swept away by some handsome tourist. When they get back home its back to old Betty. Neidermeyer, DEAD! Francine needs some spanx. Pete is an idiot, and Trudy is following Betty's footsteps to becoming a very unhappy wife. I wonder if Pete will have a german baby now? (souvenier) Roger is in Jane, Don is in Denver or wherever, Ken is getting some good lines. Fat girls with hairy underarms with their feet in the founains, wow! I wonder if that was some European remark especially with a fountain. I adore Joan. Don doing laundry, a little Clorox asskiss? what is next, Bonwit Teller or Mencken thinking of starting a low budget store like Target. Funny, sure are a lot of liquor ads on MadMen. I know the feminists hate the Ketel One ad introduction, of Gentlemen. I dont know if there was one last night or not. I wonder if Betty went online and got her undies at Secretsinlace.com. I have to admit, that was HOT! Betty cant make up her mind if she wants to be Marilyn or Jackie. Bobby is one filthy kid, with an older bruiser of a sister he is headed for some issues too. Henry was this episodes Duck, I am getting some good lines to work with, I want to make you happy. Connie is going to have a big problem when he finds out all is not perfect in the Draper marriage. Exemplary huh?
"By ioplex on October 2, 2009 9:01 PM @bluegirl I'm not looking for fast and crazy. In fact, I though the rider mower scene was a little bit of a "Who shot JR?" kind of moment. It severed no purpose of than shock value. "
Hola, ioplex,
I ain't pickin' on ya'. But when, in reference to the rider-mower scene, you said:
"It severed no purpose of than shock value."
You put a smile on my cheeks . . . on ALL my cheeks.
I'll pose the question again: What did we learn last night that we didn't know a week ago?
Joan has a job. That's the only thing I can come up with.
I have defended the pace of the show this year. I don't expect, a la The Sopranos, for someone to get whacked every week. But I do expect some advances in the storyline. Almost everything we saw last night -- Betty's willingness to be seduced, Pete making a drunken pass, Pete returning something to a department store, Sally's temper -- has been done before. Even the trip to Rome felt more like something attached at the last minute. We learned very little of Connie and Don's emerging relationship there.
Hey, Betty is frustrated being a stay-at-home Mom. Who knew?
There is one comparison with the Sopranos that is apt: People become so enchanted with the show that they'll accept anything as genius.
I'm with ioplex and his comment. What has happened to our show?! This season has been a total letdown. Re-watch season one and you'll really see how downhill everything has gone.
Regarding Betty: OK girls, put yourself in her place.
You're a model. You're beautiful. You get swept off your feet by this smooth talkin', gorgeous guy and wind up preggers. Only one option. You HAVE to marry him. So, you settle in and make the best of it while he climbs the corporate ladder. Now, 8 yrs later, after telling yourself its only your imagination over and over, you find yourself in a shrinks office unable to articulate what's wrong. You spend session after session blabbing about petty things. Then your best friend/neighbor presents you with irrefutable proof that her husband is cheating on her. Unwilling to face it, you take the phone bill, but don't open it right away. Then, you finally do, only to find that your husband is consistently calling your shrink. That NOTHING you've said to the shrink, at this point the ONLY person you can talk to, is private. So, you face it. Head on. You tell the shrink hubby is cheating in a session (just to see if Hubby gets the message that you KNOW) You do what Francine didn't do. You have the courage to kick the SOB out! You stand your ground. You demonstrate that you won't put up with that. Only, again, you have no choice. You're pregnant again.
Now, with yet another baby, the marriage is slowly improving. You still never know when he'll be home. He doesn't really talk to you about what's going on in his life. He treats you like an ornament, a prize, or a servant. You're there strictly to service him, his needs and his kids. Your grief over the death of your parent (first Mom, now Dad) is something you're expected not to talk about. Your deepest feelings and anxieties are just one more thing he doesn't want to deal with. And he doesn't. There may be physical intimacy, but never emotional intimacy.
And, lest we forget, Betty made the last minute decision to go to Rome to avoid any temptation with Henry. She did it specifically so that she wouldn't cheat on Don.
You, on a whim, decide to accompany him for business trip to Rome. While there, you re-capture your original infatuation/attraction to your husband. It's magical. Then you go home.
Your best friend/neighbor makes light of this rekindling. She knows her husband cheats on her and has just let it go. No big move. No kicking him out. You're in the middle of trying to save a marriage (or make the best of it) and something wonderful has happened. And, your best friend both implies you should take up with Henry, and that you have spilled every intimate detail of your getaway with your husband. Now, the entire experience has been cheapened, ruined. You take it out on Don.
C'mon girls. There isn't a woman in this forum, who in 2009 wouldn't have divorced that SOB years ago, taken the house, the kids, and every dime a good lawyer could squeeze out of him. Not Betty. She's stuck. So, call her shallow. Call her petty. Me? I call her pissed off and deservedly so.
I think that Don and Betty set that little restaurant encounter up ahead of time. I've done the same thing. Kind of fun.
Joan's job at Bonwitt-Teller is not really a step down from her job at SC. She is the manager of the dress department, maybe more. The interesting question is how did she get that job? In an earlier episode, she gave someone the name of an employee there, "who would take care of them". I think the mystery of Joan's past is somehow steeped in that store. Maybe she was a fashion model in France. She must be connected to someone at a high level.
I thought that Betty was turned off by Henry Francis's too forward attitude, and was already writing him off as she took a last look at him in her rear view mirror. She knows from what that Jr. League woman said that he has a reputation and that he is probably just looking to get a leg over. But he was basically asking for payment. Like Pete did from the au pair. Although Pete demanded it. I thought that was why she chose to go with Don to Rome. She was looking for sex in her own backyard again.
As for the Italians (one of whom I recognize as an English actor - the one with the big nose) they called Don ugly in the spirit of competition. They were trash talking, only in Italian, so it sounds nicer.
@liquor: Ah, c'mon: "Bobby is one filthy kid, with an older bruiser of a sister he is headed for some issues too."
That scene with Sally playing car with the neighbor boy, imitating her parents and kissing him is SOOOO normal. As was Bobby's reaction singing that old rhyme. That was/is typical child behavior. Even Sally's beat down after. Completely normal sibling stuff.
When Conrad Hilton approached Don and Betty at the bar/cafe in Rome and met Betty for the first time, was it appropriate/normal that she remain seated and extend her hand out for him to kiss? I would think that Betty could stand up and be respectful to a man of CH's stature and be honored to meet him rather than an expectant, conceited &$%#. Was this how beautiful women like Betty behaved in the 60's? Or are we supposed to attribute that obnoxious gesture to Betty feeling extremely empowered all of a sudden?
Poor Don, her just can't get a break. No matter what he does, its never good enough for Betty. I just hopped off the fence on to the "I Hate Betty" side.
@Bipolar: I agree. She's pissed off. She can't count on Don. One day he's there, the next day he's off having a tantrum because she wants to talk about his work situation. Something she has a right to know about. He keeps her in suspense. To paraphrase Don: She wants him, but she can't have him.
Was Betty pregnant when they got married? I must have missed that part.
@bipolarbear. It's interesting that you say Betty went to Rome to avoid having a affair with Henry. I think she did have the affair -- in her mind -- with Don serving as Henry. It's why she was so ticked with Don when she got back home. The fantasy was over. Now...fantasy affairs are not the same as the real thing, I grant you, otherwise we'd all be guilty.
I also think you might be taking it too easy on Bets. Yeah, her husband's a cad, but she's still responsible for her own behavior. And so far she hasn't seemed to be any more moral than he is.
I have finally had a chance to absorb this episode.(and go through all of the posts.. I will comment on Hobo, NNT, Bipolar and Sugar Bears,Racy, Greg, Zabadu, Renatae, KBF, et al in another post, but have to get this out!)
I thought this entire episode alternated between dream and nightmare. (Very Lynchian.. which we all know MW has in him.)
Also, we all have had those times when we are out of our elements of time, space, familiarity that we either have a great time with or (quietly) implode.
Dream: Betty emerging victorious and kissing Henry, being in Rome with Don, the object of everyone’s affection. Nightmare: Back home where people put her in compartments that may or may fit. (Think Francine’s innuendo, Carla’s exposition on Sally’s behavior, Don ignoring it, etc.)
Still, can we lose Betty being one of the show’s foci for at least a week or two…ora basta!
Nightmare: Did that whole scene at Bonwit’s seem like a nightmare to anyone besides me? Did anyone notice how Joan’s eye make up was black, no luminosity
in her skin …the accent of the sales clerk,(thick, harsh) The absolute weirdness of the floor space…Just like the shading, pace, discomfort one experiences with a nightmare. The total weirdness of her even encountering Pete of all people!
Just when you think that Pete becomes a human being, he goes back to being sociopathic. He is not in love with his wife, is himself a child, and puts on the mantle of being an adult, much like the one Betty dons, but it doesn’t fit.
Don is just meat for the lions in this episode, getting tossed around and chomped on alternately by his wife and Connie. He has no clue as to why neither of them can maintain any evenness of character, and feels the brunt of their moodiness and capriciousness.
I actually think that the writers et al in this episode got a hold of some of the weed from three episodes ago and put us all in a holding pattern; much like the month of August is and must have been back in 1963.
@Sugar Bear: Ladies remain seated. Men stand. If a woman excuses herself to the powder room, the men stand until she leaves and then seat themselves. Chivalry. You know. (maybe not) Men are supposed to open the door for you, walk next to you street side to protect you, treat you with respect.
I'll let you in on a secret. If you marry the right guy you get it all...the chivalry, the ego that allows you to work or stay home (whatever you want), the emotional intimacy, the physical intimacy, and a really good Dad for your kids. Sorry, he's taken. I have him.
@Deep Dish: this is what’s the most maddening part of all: no, there is no AC and it’s high summer and all the windows are closed. What’s up with that?
The souvenirs.
The best one: Betty telling Don what Henry Francis told her: "If you don't have the power, use time, or stall"? I saw that Don thought this was brilliant.
Betty's souvenir is the Lincoln.
Don and Betty's is Rome.
Betty gave Sally pieces of girl/mom advice. I loved the lipstick scene.
January was breathtaking in Rome. She was so sexy and playful, with Don, and the two "gentlemen." She HAD Don, again, right then, but then she came home.
Pete, Don juxtaposition.
It seemed like Pete was trying to be a Don, but doing everything wrong. Even his apt looked shabby, and cheap. He was so sleezy. He keeps peeing all over every place he eats and works. That is so not Don. And Trudy buys into his pity? Ew!
More Francine! She's dead on "House". I missed her.
DEEPDISH i have taken my shirt off that way pete did. only when i'm being very lazy. i think the reason i don't do it more often is because i do my own wash and it's a pain to unbutton later. not prob for pete
NNT: It was subtle, a few episodes back when Don & Betty had dinner with Pryce and his wife. The wife asks how long they've been together. Don says 10 yrs, Betty says 9. Don is referring to when they started dating , Betty is referring to when they got married. Either way, Sally is 10, they've been married 9 years.
More on Bonwit-Teller. Why did they choose a store that is no longer in business? Can't get anyone to pay for that. Maybe Hermes didn't want to be overshadowed. Or maybe the ultimate Joan storline is something that an on-going operation wanted no part of.
@bipolarbear: Thanks for the clarification. I think I sometimes fall into the trap of applying my generational mores to this show...of course not fair to the characters.
I do have the chivalry, the emotional intimacy, the physical intimacy and the ego that allows me to work. No kids by choice. He opens my doors, pulls out my chairs, walks on the outside of the street and protects me from large spiders. Wouldn't trade him for the world.
I'm reserving judgment until the end of the season. We could have seen groundwork being prepared last night for something important or shocking down the road.
Betty never addressed Sally's violent temper. All she wanted to do was talk about kissing. Didn't mention the pounding of Bobby, didn't tell Don about it. Not good.
Don is working his heinie off, and Betty only complains about how he's never there, how she was stuck at home during August, how she hates their life. To the moon, Alice! She deserves to be cheated on. I was a stay-at-home mom, and I just don't get her attitude. So many women would kill to be home with their two month-old babies, but that's the time when so many have to return to work after giving birth. Ye gods, why didn't Don just leave her in Rome to the jackals in the square? She has a whore fixation, that girl.
Good call, Liquor regarding Betty's Marilyn/Jackie confusion. She was wearing a beautiful pink Jackie suit for her homecoming, but I was disappointed that the pillbox hat was missing.
"Well, I see you got a new boyfriend
You know, I never seen him before
Well, I saw him
Makin' love to you
You forgot to close the garage door
You might think he loves you for your money
But I know what he really loves you for
It's your brand new leopard-skin pill-box hat."
(B. Dylan)
Bobby is filthy because little boys play in mud, wipe their hands on their shirts, and don't wash unless forced to. I loved the way he zoomed the monstrous plane over the food, standing on the chair. So typical!
@SugarBear: Bipolarbear is correct. The only time Betty should have stood is for a very elderly man or woman. She was correct in remaining seated. How times have changed.
I think Don is really, really trying, but that Betty is so woefully unhappy with her current life that nothing other than leaving her in Rome to continue her fantasy life will satisfy her.
@I love Joan - because Bonwit Teller is a period piece that brings us back to that era? By the way it was torn down and replaced by the Trump Tower (57th & 5th Ave).
I loved this episode! Betty was adorable in her sexy Roman outfit/hairdo. Don really liked being the "winner" in the contest for Betty with the 2 Italians. I thought it was cute that he sat at another table first and asked if he could join her. He was seeing her through their eyes. Betty showed her class and education in Rome. Don's thin veneer of polish and his lack of education are more visible in Europe.
I love to see D & B being sexual and romantic with each other. He usually keeps her at arm's length because he knows she wants him. Don loves to withhold; he keeps the power.
It's tough to return to a house full of kids and problems after you've had a taste of your younger, freer self. I know it has made me a little cranky from time to time. You have a romantic getaway and then reality crashes back down on you. The beauty of Europe or Vegas for that matter, is that you can be anyone you want to be, no rules apply. I thought that Don's gift was thoughtful, but come on, a charm for a bracelet? He's a very wealthy guy. How about a diamond necklace. He can afford it. After all, he was willing to give Midge his entire bonus check. Betty is a valuable asset to a man in Don's circle. He ought to try a little harder to keep her.
I wanted to cry when I saw Joan. She was as wonderful as ever.
@fifty-two: I hear ya. She's not as supportive of his hard work as she could be. I can't help but wonder, if he confided in her about work if that wouldn't change. All she knows is that he's gone all the time. She's never given an explanation as to why, probably because most of the time, (until this season) there was no work reason for his absence. As we saw last week, if she asks about work, he storms out. She couldn't tell if he was gone for a night, a week, a month? The only thing a person can do when trying to determine what another person will do is base it on their previous behavior. She sure took it in stride when Hilton called the house and Don was to suddenly be gone for a couple days to Rome. Let's face it, they got married for all the wrong reasons, and it shows.
And, lest we forget, these days women would kill to be home with their infant, but then, there really was no other choice, especially with someone in the socioeconomic position of Betty.
I loved this episode.
I adored Don and Betty on their trip to Rome.
I loved Betty speaking Italian...Must remember this is a woman who went too University(probably studied at least one year of a language of some kind) then also modeled in Europe for a few years and probably picked up the Italian language by living, working there. , Don was not suprised she spoke it so well, I wonder if they went to some part of Europe together during the last part of her modeling days or maybe for their honeymoon?
Wonder why this episode is called "Souvenir".....hope Duck didn't give Peggy an STD.
Have Mad Men writers lost their mojo? Everything that was interesting about the Mad Men characters has changed. Here's what I thought was interesting about some of the characters:
Campbell - A pretentious brat with no sense of respect for other people. His motivation is short term political gain and personal amusement. But what is perhaps most interesting is that he is psychologically unstable (think Christian Bale in American Psycho). He exchanged a wedding gift for a rifle and pointed it at passing secretaries.
Betts - Representative of housewives who were treated as second class citizens by their husbands. This combined with the insecurities of a model manifests itself as childish dark behavior like when she shot at the neighbors pigeons with a pellet gun.
Roger - A witty smooth talking free wheeling womanizer high roller sugar daddy. Fun!
Peggy - Representative of women who suffered discrimination in the workplace.
Joan - A voluptuous babe. The J-Lo of Sterling Cooper.
So what happened to these characters in season 3?
Campbell - Peggy told Campbell she gave away their lust child. Of course the kid is of absolutely no interest to him but I would think he would feel slighted by Peggy enough so that it would provoke some form of evil behavior. But Campbell has been acting like a normal person. That's not right.
Betts - I realize Don is in the dog house but she's been wearing the pants a little too much for a 60's house wife. I want realism and not a rewrite of history. Either that or burn her bra.
Roger - As the epitome of bad behavior at work and at home, Roger has been a bit of a wimp lately. I liked Roger the sleazy drunken whore a lot better.
Peggy - Workplace discrimination against women in the 60's was at it's peak. I like that Don helps her break out but she's been doing too well lately. In season 3 she's correctly rebuffed by Don for greedily trying to get on the Hilton account. Peggy should be bumping her head on the glass ceiling on a regular basis.
Joan - We need more sex with Joan. Even if it is only at work with her cloths on.
Hi everybody & TGIF! Virtual old-fashioneds, martinis, & gimlets all around...
@ioplex, you have some great points there. I don't feel the show has lost its mojo, but so far, Season 3 does have a different feel than the earlier seasons. It's been quite slow to build, more reflective. There's been somewhat less emphasis on sex since Don's been behaving himself and Roger's still infatuated with Jane for the time being. But things are starting to get a little crazy now between the July 4 bloodbath and the Peggy/Duck rendezvous. Also we're clearly not finished with Miss Farrell or Henry Francis yet.
ITA with your excellent description of Pete. He started out as a an unsettling, totally intriguing character who exhibited sociopathic tendencies as well as some indications of a narcissistic personality. He's shockingly immature for his age and lacks impulse control. I got scared every time he picked up that rifle. Pete's behavior has been more ordinary this season on the surface at least, although his issues are still obvious when you consider his poorly concealed jealousy and childish pettiness toward Ken Cosgrove. I don't think the baby matters very much (if at all) to Pete, but when he told Peggy he was in love with her and that she was "perfect" etc., she flat-out rejected him, so I did expect a little more tension between them due to his bruised ego and lack of emotional maturity. Maybe he's just been in denial somehow since then.
Roger has been a little dull and kind of in the background lately, except for his jaw-dropping blackface performance. Can't say that was boring. I would like to see more scenes between him, Mona, and Margaret regarding the wedding. There's a lot of good dramatic tension in the interactions between the 3 of them-- and poor Brooks, who clearly has no idea what he's in for!
While Joan is so much more than just a sexpot (although she's certainly got that in spades) I agree that we definitely need more Joan in some capacity ASAP. I hope she'll be back somehow on Sunday.
A few folks previously mentioned that Pete might be a greater threat to Don, now that he could (through his defense dept buddy) find out more about Don trading places with the real Don Draper.
If that occurs, will Peggy step in and threaten to retaliate by telling Trudy about having Pete's baby?
Hi everyone. I am on my daily train ride back, trying to master this Internet (not going to let the kids see this, or they will want it for Christmas). I am asking you Maddicts (is that the proper term?) what you think will happen to my colleagues and I in the upcoming episode? Don't keep me waiting.
-Don Draper
[waves to Don-in-the-first-person on his magical internet-enabled portable device from The Future! WTG on the time travel, Don!]
NNT, excellent idea, but I wonder exactly what would Pete stand to gain from exposing Don (again) right now? He already tried 3 years ago and it made him look like a total @$$ to Bert Cooper. Perhaps if Pete were desperate for money for some reason, he might blackmail Don on a more personal level-- maybe threatening to reveal the truth to Betty? I thought Pete's seemed to be much more worried about Ken Cosgrove getting the upper hand in the joint heads of accounts "competition" lately versus anything to do with Don, but if you're right and he did try to use this against him somehow, I'd think both of them would keep the whole thing as private as possible, but if Peggy somehow stumbled onto the whole plot, then she certainly does have one heck of a loaded weapon against Pete in her back pocket! She's already covered for Don once with Bobbie Barrett, though. Would Peggy want to risk all of SC finding out her own deepest secret just to protect Don? She's been pretty irritated with him lately. Now, maybe if Don does something for her in return i.e. a raise...? Actually, I could totally see a whole episode based on everyone blackmailing/threatening everyone else in a giant vicious cycle.
@bluegirl I'm not looking for fast and crazy. In fact, I though the rider mower scene was a little bit of a "Who shot JR?" kind of moment. It severed no purpose of than shock value. That scene was cheap. Actually something that was more frustrating was Salvatore's heavy gay sex scene. Not because it was so sexually explicit but because it undermined the character. Salvatore is torn between social acceptability and his true feelings. So the explicit nature of that sex scene made it all about sex when they should have emphasized the serious sexual conflict he is living with. For example, the scene where Salvatore reenacts the Bye Bye Birdie routine was very good. The actress that plays his wife did a good job. She realized something at that moment. That was a definitive and positive moment in the development of Salvatore's character.
I miss Joan. Plan and simple: I miss Joan. She was the fast-paced wit in that office. The scene where Dr. Harris forced her onto the floor and raped her, oh, that had me pissed. And when Jane came back to the office in MOKH, Joan could have shot back with a stinging remark about sloppy seconds, but she was too classy.
@ioplex, I'm glad someone else picked up on Kitty's very slight facial expressions! The way Sal picked up his imaginary hemline and ran back to the bed... You know that she knows something is terribly worng in her marriage.
I don't think that the baby is much of a thought to either Peggy or Pete. Pete seemed crushed when she told him about their baby, but the only other time he seemed to think about it was in MOKH (when his wife was talking to the very pregnant Betty). And Peggy just came across as even more selfish when it came to talking to her mom about moving to Manhattan. Her mom is raising her kid! And with no "Thanks, Ma!" to boot. The only time she seemed sad about her choice was when she was asking Don for a raise (in accordance with the new law...) and she held the baby booty in her hand and said, "Third time. It must be old hat. ... I think, 'I want what he has.' And you have so much of it." That seemed to be the only time that she really thought about her son in any kind of maternal way.
Can I just say that I adore Betty? I physically identify with Joan (and God love 'em!!!), but I just get Betty. The whole my-husband-doesn't-appreciate-me thing and the way she snaps at people is just spot-on. I just love her!!
No offense to anybody, but I think that those of you who are surprised that the characters are different from season 1 are missing the point of the show. People DO change and grow with time. And this isn't Star Wars or LOTR where there's literally a battle between good and evil. For example, yes, Pete was set up as a total jerk in the first episode of season 1. But even during season 1 we had reason to believe that he was more complex and not a "villain." Frankly, his behavior in season 1 was no different from Don's - Don just covers his swarminess with charm and suaveness. Deifying Peggy, Joan and/or Don is actually the opposite of what MW would want I think. He's created these great, 3 dimensional characters. We should appreciate that instead of trying to box each character into a certain "type."
One more thing - this isn't a soap opera. Not saying that Pete knowing about Don's real identity will never come up, but looking at the past three seasons, Pete and Don's relationship is a lot more complicated than you guys are making it out to be. He desperately wants Don's approval and when he couldn't get it in season 1, he lashed out with the blackmailing. Since then, things have changed. I think Don has a lot more respect for Pete now (remember how Pete handled California on his own and Don told him he was ready). And I don't think Peggy is going to be having a heart to heart with Trudy anytime soon.
@giantsfan21, no offense taken here. You make some very good pragmatic points! MM is indeed not a simple good vs. evil parable nor is it a soap opera. I do appreciate the complexity of the characters. I've said on this board before that I love that they're all flawed and they all make mistakes. I'm not at all surprised or disappointed that some of them have changed. In fact I hope that they will change because it makes for good drama like we're seeing with Peggy. She's changed a lot from Season 1 and it's fascinating. I just think they aren't giving some of the others much to do lately, such as my earlier statement about Roger. He's kind of faded into the background a bit, becoming like a prop at SC who gets trotted out whenever there are papers to sign. We actually don't know if he has changed significantly as a person because he's not getting the same screen time he used to.
JMHO, and not trying to get into a debate, but I have to respectfully disagree that Pete and Don are or were similar... I just don't see it. Even setting aside my amateur armchair psychiatric opinions, Pete is still selfish, manipulative, and insensitive to pretty much everyone on the planet. He has few redeeming qualities that we've seen thus far, anyway. Has Pete ever done or said anything that was authentically kind or helpful to anyone? However Don has shown compassion for others multiple times. He is generally a good, gentle, loving father to his children. He's capable of expressing real love and genuine remorse, such as in his handwritten letter to Betty. His worst qualities are a penchant for adultery and secrecy. Not perfect, certainly not. He is highly ethical in business dealings, such as recently when he felt that the jai alai kid was in over his head. Yet Pete, who was that guy's fraternity buddy from way back, was all gung ho to take him for all he's got financially. "Enjoy your fatted calf"... Pete takes pleasure in other people's misfortune. Don at least has some sense of ethics and morality, even if he twists it sometimes to fit his own needs. BTW I didn't have quite as much compassion for Don in Season 1 as I do today. After what we now know about his horrifically abusive childhood, he's actually doing fairly well for having gone through that. Don could easily be a rage-filled alcoholic who beats his family just like Archibald Whitman, but he is better than that, and he deserves some serious credit for that.
@Maddicts: I thought the name of this episode was changed from "Souvenier" to "Summer Vacation."
"Her mom is raising her kid! And with no "Thanks, Ma!" to boot. "
Ahhh That is not Peggy's baby. It is her sister's. She was pregnat the same time Peggy was.
Souvenir Hmm I think it could pertain to a few things in the episode:
The Welt on Don's head - A souvenir of his night of teenage foolishness with the hitchiker/muggers. (Funny that Conrad Hilton advised Don that young people keep us young)
The scarf that was the inpetus for Peggy's Duckfest as it were. (Could go into some more Duck inuendo but ..mmmm no did anyone else find that a bit disturbing, but given Peggy's recent sexual liberation who's next - Sal???)
The fainting sofa - Betty's souvenir for the day she spent with a man she found hmmm interesting (thus touching herself on it in the flash forward Tarantinoesque sequencing of the episode.He is an older powerful man and her Daddy just died. A Betty duckfest (lowercase duck) may be around the corner-- or around the reservoir as it were)
After seeing title is now "Summer Vacation", remembered Don's and Miss Farrell's conversation at July 20 eclipse. He asks if she's going on vacation and she says "no, and you?" He says "We'll be here."
@ bluegirl - agreed that not everybody has changed (Roger being a great example) but I wouldn't say Peggy is the only one either. IMO of the main characters, Peggy and Pete are the most changed. I mean, if somebody had asked you two seasons ago which character would be suggesting integrated ads and talking to Hollis, would you have guessed Pete? I probably wouldn't have (although I DO think that it's been suggested for awhile that he's not as bigoted as his peers). And judging by the preview for Sunday's episode, Pete hasn't backed off of perusing Ebony in spite of the dressing down he got from Sterling and Cooper...I guess I'm just not on the "Pete is an awful human" wagon, although I know a lot of fans are. And I think I could argue that he's had a fairly harsh childhood as well - born into money but he hasn't received love from his parents, he gets no respect for the career he's chosen and to top it off, his mom threatens to disown him if he and Trudy adopt.
I should have been more clear about what I was saying re: Pete and Don in season 1. I'm not saying their motivations or personalities are similar, but rather that many of their actions are. We all got riled up by Pete's misogynistic comments, but it's not like Don didn't say sexist things, just as an example. Also, while I think Don is generally a fairly OK father, it's important to remember that he's often an absent one. In my book, running off to California for 3 weeks without telling your wife or kids (I don't care if Betty had kicked him out, she still had a right to know) isn't an example of good parenting. Don gets to play good cop to Betty's bad cop and I think that's part of why we view him as the "better" parent. Re: love and affection in that handwritten letter to Betty in the S2 finale, I was in a minority on that - I found it pretty cliche (I mean, the dude's a good writer). I'm of the opinion that it wasn't the letter that moved Betty to ask him to come back but the fact that she was pregnant. Pete and Peggy's final scene in that episode was IMO far more moving and heartbreaking.
It wasn't my original idea, about Pete blackmailing Don. I was addressing what other people were saying on the last or some other thread. I didn't think it through too much. I just think that if Pete evers tries to pull something on Don again, Peggy may step in. She is not one to hold a grudge. She has manners, after all, she's from Bay Ridge.
@giantsfan21: That was really well said. I agree with all you say about Pete. He is not as black as he's painted. I think he is totally going to redeem himself. And I was thinking about Pete's background today. It is so like Don's except that Pete's people had money and status. Both Don and Pete had fathers who sat in a chair and totally denigrated them. Pete's father criticized advertsiing and so did Don's.
Hi Pi168... good to see you... have been thinking of you and wondering how you are...
NNT right you are... Peggy does not hold a grudge... and I love your recall of her "manners" riff!
GiantsFan... your posts... great Maddict food. You've got some savvy going on...
Aline.. Very good point and question! However it plays out... it will be interesting...
Thanks. I think if the title remains 'Souvenir' it could have the same implication.
Enjoying analysis of Pete above.
Was thinking about Roger/Don. If Don is ever exposed, it could be Roger who is most likely to forgive him. He's been such a schm*ck, digging his own grave, combined with a keen philosophical streak.
@Fan-Nan, thank you for your brilliance and being supportive of the whole group!
I may have missed something but was Cooper implying that he knows about Don's true identity (" After all whos is really signing this contract? and " Would you say I know a little something about you Don?") Thus coercing him to sign? Are there implications to this contract beyond the Hilton account in terms of its importance to Roger and Coop?
PS I'm hot for teacher? She can make me put my head in a cardboard box and stare at the sun anyday!!
@Giantsfan I agree with you on Don's parenting skills. He is an O.K. Dad. nothing super, frequently absent, some compassion for his kids, at least to what we have seen from Betty. I think Weiner has softened Betty's harshness towards the kids in the last few episodes. Her reaction to Bobby hanging up the phone to soon was perfectly realistic. She did try to show Sally some attention with the gift doll, although we see she really is clueless on who her kids are. That line about the faeries wrapping it may have worked on a dumb 5 year old, not a bright(cigarette smoking,money stealing, drinking, car driving nine year old. ) At least she wasn't drinking and Driving at the same time.
I was just wondering if the giantsfan name is football or baseball derived.
As a graduate of Bryn Mawr (Class of 1970) I was proud to hear Betty tell Henry she attended my school, but I don't find it believable. I love Betts, but she's not intellectual, and at a time when most of the Ivies excluded women, Bryn Mawr and other Seven Sisters colleges were highly selective. My class was one of the first in which graduates of public and private schools were about evenly mixed; in previous years (like Betty's), most students would have been graduates of elite all-girl prep schools. An informal guy like Grandpa Gene would have attracted stares at Parents' Day. What's more, a true Mawrter would either have KNOWN what a fainting chaise was or would have pretended to. And why no books or Angel classical LPs in Betty's newly decorated living room? "Animal House" was more accurate in its depiction of the Seven Sisters types of the era.
As a graduate of Bryn Mawr (Class of 1970) I was proud to hear Betty tell Henry she attended my school, but I don't find it believable. I love Betts, but she's not intellectual, and at a time when most of the Ivies excluded women, Bryn Mawr and other Seven Sisters colleges were highly selective. My class was one of the first in which graduates of public and private schools were about evenly mixed; in previous years (like Betty's), most students would have been graduates of elite all-girl prep schools. An informal guy like Grandpa Gene would have attracted stares at Parents' Day. What's more, a true Mawrter would either have KNOWN what a fainting chaise was or would have pretended to. And why no books or Angel classical LPs in Betty's newly decorated living room? "Animal House" was more accurate in its depiction of the Seven Sisters types of the era.
Well who will be the one in this week episode to utter "bullshit". Betty has done it. Last week Archie did. Seems to be a theme here.
Who is Don talking to in the Malt shop preview "I wont have my heart broken"? Maybe the teacher or Joan asking for her job back?
@Hapynzap: I am SO hoping that Don's talking to Rachel Menken in that scene. I still hold out hope for them to be together. I've always felt Rachel's been the only one Don could unleash his "story" to and she'd accept him hands down as Dick or Don. They had such an honest connection and one of my favorite episodes is when he shows up at her apartment and they lay on the couch together. I know Rachel's married now, but I have this little side story in my head that she had to get divorced because her new husband couldn't handle the "cosmopolitan" and "business" type woman that she is, or that she spent too much time at the department store, so he left her, and she then looks up Don again and they end up together. MW? Are you reading?
Hey! Look at all the new faces (avatars) on some of you old posters! A little nip, a little tuck... It's O.K, I understand.
@hobocode, I love yours, because I'm a huge Abbott and Costello fan.
@NeverNotTasy, perfect.
@rnpen, I caught you on the last thread, nice to see there was something underneath all those bandages.
@Sugar Bear, I sat there for hours, but no one showed up for my class! Probably smoking in Kinsey's office, planning some protest.
I think there were a couple more new avatars, but I can't recall.
Now where's the open bar for this shindig?
Before I get pre-show plastered, check out the latest issue of Entertainment Weekly for a feature on the props for series.
No, I don't work for the magazine.
I just like to keep up with important world current events.
Busy--My sister went to Smith, and several other friends went to Wellesley and other Seven Sister schools (all in the 80s), so I know they are very selective. But weren't they originally more like the most elite finishing schools until maybe closer to the time you went there? At some point, wasn't there a time when these colleges started raising their standards for admission, and generally taking the education of women more seriously.
My old boss went to Smith also, but graduated in like '54 and it sounded like a completely different college than the one my sister attended.
Betty would have gone to Bryn Mawr in the very early 50s, so women weren't really supposed to be "scholars" during that period, but rather were in college to get their Mrs degrees, no? But I also wouldn't call Betty stupid either. I feel like she's more a product of a domineering, protective father and of the era as well as a "victim" of her beauty--not much was expected of her beyond the social graces and looking pretty.
I think that started changing by the time you went there no?
Glad to see Betty with the baby bottle sterilizing equipment in the sneak peak. I was wondering about that, since she isn't nursing. What a pain! Jon Hamm must be pretty short to fit on that loveseat, even curled up. I've begun to notice they shoot him at a distance from other men to make him look taller.
Jon Hamm's height has been variously reported between 5'11" and 6'0" - nobody's suggested anything shorter.
@fifty-two: Are you calling me short? You better remember who you are talking to there. Even if I was short, who cares, you shouldn't imply that it's an insult. Auburn Annie: Thank you for defending me.
-Don Draper
@DonD I do not know or care how tall you are, but I will give you proper credit for playing well in the celebrity softball game during this years MLB all star break. Good fielding, good hitting. So many celebrities embarass themselves in a sports setting. Not you sir.
thinking about what the souvenir might be - perhaps don buys something for miss farell while on vacay - kaleidoscope, sun catcher, something that reminds him of the eclipse.
Miss Farrell cant hold a candle to Ms Menken.
So how far has Don fallen?
Until Mad Men came along I thought The Sopranos was the best series ever on television, Now Mad Men wins with me hands down. Who would have thought that a show could portray in an artistic way all the complexities of that Madison Ave. society in that time period.
And each episode gets better and better. The "tractor" episode blew me away. But 723 really seemed almost perfectly written, acted, and directed. When Coop sounding subtle, said to Don/Dick at the end "would you say I know something about you?" I did a double take. I was not expecting that and yet it made perfect sense. Then of course came the "who's really signing this anyway". Which seemed to give Don a little escape hatch.
I am more astounded each week.
If more shows like this can take off, maybe we could have a much longed for Golden Age of Television.
hapynzap i love rachel too but she's got a new shoe on FX, not sure she coming back. I think there is a chance bobby might return. I think UTZ is still a client. I would like to see don and jimmy in the same room again!
Yeah, j9mac, I too would like to see Jimmy come back. His wife Bobby not so much. Jimmy sure was interesting and had stage presence. A favorite scene was when he was forward with Betty and she said "you people are ugly and crude" and he shot back with "what people... comedians?" I nearly cried laughing.
I am not familiar with that actor, I wonder if he is a comedian in real life. He seems so much like the "Borscht Belt" comics of that era.
I love Duck saying that he wanted to give Peggy a 'go-around'. I don't think anyone uses that term anymore!
Hi AuburnA...Check a thread called My day on set of Mad Men.(sorry I don't know how to post a link.. cyber lame is moi)... Stage Kiss was in Maypole scene and says that Jon Hamm is 5'9" or so. She has a great story, but last time I checked it was not yet completed...
Sugar Bear.... I too want to see Don and Rachel do something together... my "guess" on the predicton thread was that they are each looking for a cab and end up sharing one..( nods to Hapynzap and jmac). And...loved your great riffs with Hobo on the eclipse party... you two are like a jazz duo....and can't forget Racy.. that makes it a trio.
@hobocode52: Thank you. When not fighting in the Korean War, my platoon-mates gave me some grounders.
@Hapynzap: I have not fallen, and I resent that statement. I am cleverly biding my time until the time is right to form my own advertising firm. And I'm sure Conrad will be more than willing to be my one of my first clients.
-Don Draper
@BettyC: This season we've seen Betty as a product of her domineering father. I've just done a complete review of S1, and in the first 3 episodes, there are several references to Betty's Mom. It was Betty's Mom who sent her to a fat farm for summer camp one year. It was Betty's Mom that had Betty so convinced she was fat she showed up to home economic class with a p.j. pattern 3 sizes too big (and brushed it off with: "I guess I'd lost more weight than I thought at Summer Camp") It was Betty's Mom that thought modeling was like being a "prostitute". It was Betty's Mom that was concerned about Betty's looks and Betty's ability to find a man. And, Betty often makes reference to how beautiful her mother was, however, the only time we, the audience have seen her Mother was in Betty's imagination in "The Fog", where Betty's Mom was rather plain. Betty has developed post death near worship of both her parents. A view IMO that is severely influenced by anger and resentment. A cover for these very real feelings.
One other note. There's been much talk in these threads about Betty not doing much housework, but we see her doing a lot of it in S1. Even in S3, Gene told her to stop "doing the maid's job" (dishes).
@Melba: Did stagekiss finally post the end to that thread? I checked yesterday and there still was no update. How do I access it?????
@NeverNoToasty: Yes, Peggy has that hold over Pete.
@bluegirl: Really great post! Re: your comment to NNT: You're right, Pete could tell Betty about Don being Dick. You're also right, Peggy could go to Trudy, as "she has a loaded gun", as you say. And, I agree, Peggy & Don both share big secrets, although Peggy doesn't know Don's BIGGEST secret (that he is Dick Whitman), & Don doesn't know Peggy's BIGGEST secret (that her baby out of wedlock was Pete's child.) Wouldn't you think that Peggy & Pete would go out for a drink one night, maybe to talk about what happened when Peggy gave up their baby, & the conversation might easily drift to Pete telling Peggy about Don being an imposter? Pete doesn't know about Don's infidelities like Peggy does, or if Pete suspects, he doesn't know how close to home (Bobbie Barrett), or how far reaching they are. If I were Don, I'd be impressed that Pete hasn't told the rest of "the brat pack", or even Trudy (or what we know), about the Dick Whitman revelation.
You say we may have an episode w/ everyone blaming everyone else, or did you say "blackmailing everyone to everyone"? Nevertheless, I think we have a whole season of that!
I have never posted any show or season predictions, but I will post some now: I have a feeling we will see a television playing in this episode, maybe see more of Harry. That's important. I agree w/ all of you, this is how Joan comes back to SC, maybe just in a temporary worker position in the TV Media Dept. She'll either be working w/ Harry, & she'll have to take over duties for him due to illness (or his wife or baby become ill), or Joan will come in as a temporary replacement for Harry (same reasons) up front. The British will be responsible for bringing Joan in as a temporary, & I believe it will be the British who promote her up. They will behave this way toward Joan based on her actions during the foot accident. Maybe she & Harry will be fighting it out the way Pete & Ken are (altho Ken either doesn't know it, or doesn't care.) Instead, I believe Joan will be brought in, once again, to "save the day", & will reap the rewards for it this time. Then her spouse will want her to quit (she'll be working too many hours, or something, & not be home to get his dinner, etc.)
Roger & Joan will be together again, & Joan will push Jane out. Maybe Jane will leave because of her drinking, or because she will fall for a younger guy. I think there's a good chance of that - Jane will divorce Roger, & they may not have a prenup. It's 1963, & she'd get their new house.
I think Roger will become ill again, & Jane won't be able to handle it, or it will happen when he's w/ Joan.
Either way, I think the British will bring Joan back & do what SC never did, give her the opportunity she so richly deserves.
@Trotskyaire - The guy who plays Jimmy Barrett is also a member of the cast of LOST who appeared in Season 4 as a villainous member of the Dharma initiative. I was in Mad Men Season 2 withdrawal last year, saved by LOST Season 4 starting in January, and surprised to see Jimmy reappearing in this role. Actor’s name is Patrick Fischler.
@MelbaToast: It's easy to riff with Hobo, I think we're cut from the same cloth. Race keeps it all together, her memory is amazing. I'd like to take our act to another forum website. I keep sending him cigars and I even sent Race a Hermes scarf....but they keep telling me no.
@ioplex: you thought the lawn mower scene was cheap? Wow – that scene moved so quickly it took me about 10 seconds to realize Guy’s foot was run over.
And Sal himself was *too good* when he reenacted the Patio commercial. I’m pretty certain Kitty is guessing that something’s wrong with Sal.
Souvenir is also from the French for “to remember,” I believe. That’ll probably be the theme for the episode: remembering.
@racy: Who knows what will happen to Roger and Jane? He’s pretty much entertaining her whims – when did he and Mona ever give fancy parties, period? (That marriage won’t last long – maybe she’ll have an affair and Roger will find out about it – or maybe he will find out Jane’s pretty much using him)
@SugarBear I don't need no steeenkin ceegars......
Just tell me where . Just found out on another thread that Wasthere is a Cougar. I thought she was a Chevelle, maybe that's Racy, hence the name.
@JasonLloyd73: I'm not sure what your post was asking, but I'll try to clear this up. You do remember that Pete found out that Don Draper's name was really Dick Whitman, & Pete approached Don w/ a blackmail ultimatum: Promote me to Accounts Manager, or I'll tell Coop the truth about you. Don told Pete, "Let's go to Coop now." When they went to see Coop in his office, & Pete told Coop the truth, Coop came around the desk front & said to Pete, "Who cares?". Coop (nor Pete) has ever brought it up again, although when Pwet
@MelbaToast: Thanks for the mention about my eclipse party suggestions. I am so flattered that everyone seems to be laughing about it. I'm really glad I posted it now. I was concerned that I would get censored, or posters would complain that the list was "off topic". So many posters have written some kind & friendly posts to me about it. Very heady stuff for me. This on top of everyones' reaction to my deep, long analysis of the character's actions in the lawnmower episode. Someone, I think maybe Sugar Bear, actually reposted my whole eclipse party list to a sepaprate thread, that HOBO started, just for "the party". You notice how w/ all these accolades from my peers here on the site, 2 weeks in a row, AMC wasn't impressed enuf w/ what I wrote either week, to quote me, &/ or single me out for recognition. And I WRITE for a living! (partly.) In fact, I know one poster who has been singled-out & quoted by AMC, 3 times!,winning MM lighters & a mug. Many people have won twice. I'm not jealous, just curious. Does this lack of recognition have anything to do w/ the amount of complaints I posted about 'liquor's) name being a personal affront to me? I've also expressed that I consider this sexual harrassment to all the "Kentucky Derby fillies" here on the site, & AMC has e-mailed me back w/ the message that 'liquor' is an "examplary poster". I wonder if liquor has been quoted or won a MM lighter? Hmmmmmm
(Jimmy Barrett the character reminds me too much of my first boss. The same type, the same sarcastic smarmy attitude, the same air about him. heh.)
@hobocode52 - my name is football derived, go NY Giants tomorrow! :)
a couple of the posts got me wondering - does Don actually know that Peggy had a baby? I thought he saw her when she was in a psychiatric ward and (in their brief scene) it didn't seem like he probed for WHY she ended up there. The Don-Peggy-Pete secret web is very interesting...
@giantsfan21 Go Big Blue thank God for football, it's the only thing that keeps me off these threads. Big long time Giant fan here
@Racy I haven't won a thing either. I am crestfallen. I have waited a long time to use that word. Lily Am I not absurd enough to win something.
I have a white china Mad Men mug with the "Fill to Here With Whiskey" line, and a Mad Men pen with the little falling man inside it....not that I am bragging or anything 'cause truthfully, I can't remember what I said to earn them.
Hobo, I really think you should have a pen for using "crestfallen"...it is a superb word and very rarely seen these days.
Joining the insomniac's club...
@Hapynzap (8:36pm) - Maybe Don is always falling and always ends up coolly sitting with his arm across the back of the chair, there’s no beginning and no end (confirmed by Don Draper, 9:54pm). Like the way the Soprano series ended, there was no ending, just an unspecial family meal in a cheap restaurant.
that's 2 votes for me thanks Zerelda
Come on Lily! "It's not adorable to pretend like Hobo's not adorable".....give him a MM Zippo lighter!
yay!! 3 votes thanks Sugar. I almost posted that line about myself earlier in the week but i refrained. You are the adorable one however. I am going to get you a big ol jug o' Honey. maybe a salmon or two also. And a Don Draper bear from Vermont Teddy Bears.I did get you a box of chocolates in a heart shaped box already, but I ate them. sorry
I really like the Francine character who spoke that "adorable" line. The actress is so believable.
@Hobo: I know, I love her too. Her name is Anne Dudek. My other favorite show is "House", and she was in S5 last year....played a sassy young doctor and was excellent as that character too. She's quite an actress.
I'm in... I fourth the motion.
Lily oh Lily.... Attendez, s'il vous plait -- Attencion por favor --Achtung bitte ! We entreat you to take note of the excellence of our very own Hobocode52 -- he is prized by Maddicts, but as yet unprized by the management. Please, please rectify this error.
We will be so very crestfallen if you fail us in this.....
The Roger-Jane relationship could be headed for the rocks with the bloom off the rose so to speak now that the honeymoon afterglow is wearing off.
Roger did say to Don in the elevator last week that he watched the sunrise this morning and it was average.
My TV guide for tonight's episode says, "Betty and Don go on a business trip". That strikes me as out of character for Don. Sure, he uses Betty as his arm candy when her beauty and charm comes in handy with clients. But I can't imagine him taking her on a business trip with him. I can't wait to see how this plays out. Any guesses where they travel to?
Hi a-line!
How did you put Don's head (complete with cigarette) on the farmer in your avatar?
It is the funniest picture I have seen!!!
i'm a giants fan too! hope you don't mind me bragging but i was at the stadium when we almost defeated the patriots two seasons ago. what an awesome game, it took us two hours to get to our car (had to park off site) it was super cold and we were surrounded by pats fans, but it was worth it!
With regard to lost "mojo":
I actually thank God, the writers and Mr. Weiner have resisted the "McDonald's drive thru" approach of two dimensionally holding onto the obvious character flaws of each character as a crutch. As Don said in episode seven, (paraphrasing),"do you want to kill it all at once or do you want to sheer the lamb every year?" So often, TV drama's...good TV dramas, have succumbed to the very real temptations (and network pressures) of thouroughly exploiting the surface titalating aspects of an otherwise deep character, ending up "jumping the shark" after three seasons or so. The best example of course is "Mash", which dragged on and ended up recycling tired behaviors (albeit in interesting ways at times). Yes, it had a long run but please, look at the first two seasons and compare it to the tired story lines in 1981. "Mash" became an interesting habit rather than continuing to build on its groundbreaking writing. Weiner purposely slows it down because we already know the basic "weaknesses" of each character. Its now time to evolve with the amazing times just ahead. Let's not forget that, Don has just reached a massive "fork in the road" signing what he contends as an "indentured service" contract and Roger Sterling's daughter is to be married on November 23, 1963! And let's not forget how the already changing culture hits the "superhighway" in February, 1964. Its time for a little seed planting, please resist the instant gratification if you really understand the premise of the show. There is massive tension being built upon if you look closely and get out of the "titillating" mode.
@rjspeleton:
Outstanding comment.
60’s child - something that enabled people much less talented than Sal to succeed in advertising: Photoshop layers. I’ll give you further instructions in G’s avatar-making workshop.
I am guessing that tonight's episode is called "Souvenir" for Betty will come across one of her dad's souvenir. She seems to be acting out of impulse again by purchasing that "fainting couch" simply because Henry had commented on it. Wonder what Don's reaction to the couch will be. She's known to be flaky and even though Henry might be a distraction, she is after all a newly mother and it wasn't long since the passing of her dad. I say it's time for a shrink session. Not sure if it was acknowledged in those days but postpartum depression might have kicked in.
@j9mac we will have to start a seperate room for us Big Blue Mad Men Fans. Maybe Don can take Bobby and Sally to a Giants game at Old Yankee Stadium in 1963 they went 11-3 that year won their division but lost to the Bears in the championship. Like I said I will start us a seperate thread. Don't want a 15 yard penalty for straying off topic
Could someone please recap why Betty was seeing a shrink in the first place? Didn't Don set it up for her? I felt it was really because of the malaise and insecurity she was experiencing with him.
@Melba merci beaucoup ,vous jolie jeune fille. that is my french, and all of it not computer aided.
@SugarBear Thanks for the info on Anne Dudek. I think a new low for Don, doing a neighbor, this neighbor is what I would like to see Don do to break out of his season long slump. I used to watch House when Bob Villa started it and then Norm took over. I didn't know that a woman(Ms. Dudek) had taken over the show. Wow things really have changed.
Maybe the souvenir is something from Don's past that gives him away.
*****PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT *****
I am still Sugar Bear, I repeat, STILL SUGAR BEAR. I am NOT @SugarMagnolia now, nor have I ever been.
Back to the program previously in progress.
For a show with a few million viewers, it is amazing how intimate this forum remains.
@Lily/Racy/Hobo/Zerelda: I want a Joan pen on a long chain, or since I'm the last person on the earth that still smokes, a Zippo lighter.
@Sugar Magnolia: My cousin had severe depression after her first birth in 1960, but her psychiatrist didn't connect it to the birth.
on fb poster suggested the souvenir might be something carla brings back from the DC march (i think that happened in august)
rjspeleton....seconding I love Joan. I hope everyone reads you excellent comment.....
Bipolar--Correct. I wasn't being exhaustive in all the reasons why Betty and her ilk focus mostly on their appearance and their role as homemaker (v. scholar). She's surely a product of her environment. And so were many women, including those at the Seven Sisters.
She wasn't destined to become the next Margaret Mead!
@rjspeleton-- how can a writer figure out how much of the story to tell if he/she doesn't know how many seasons are available to him/her? Must make pacing really hard!
Hi a-line, Betty went to the shrink because of the hand-numbness thing. Remember she couldn't put her lipstick on? She was driving with the kids in the car and ran onto a lawn? The doctors had already done the "dye test" and couldn't find anything and deduced that it must be in her head.
Hi PI168, hope to see you here. I also hope you got some comfort from all the kind thoughts posted on the previous thread. My condolences.
@aline: Betty had a physical problem, her hands were going numb. The final straw was her fender-bender into the front yard hitting the bird bath. After 2 separate physicians and some test, it was determined her problem was psychological.. The Last episode of S1, we have her in the Shrink's office (after finding out Don has been calling her Shrink) where she tells the shrink she knows her husband is unfaithful. However, I can't remember what the end of Betty's shrink sessions was in S2. Why did she stop? Don get tired of it? Find out the shrink knew he was cheating? Anybody remember???
@wasthere: no, you are not last. Between my nicotine addiction and sheer stubborn nature, it will probably be I.
@BettyC: Do you (I do) have a sense of "oh yeah, I forgot people used to think that way" as you watch? There are so many things we take for granted now (no sexual harassment in workplace, racism is bad, don't marry your mother/father, spankin kids is now controversial as opposed to "the norm", etc. I could spend this thread listing them) I find myself continually taken aback at the differences in accepted beliefs. And yet, society, as a whole, really hasn't changed all that much. Sometimes I think that for MW, that's just what he's trying to tell us.
Hi Bipolarbear, Betty went through the phone bill to see who Don might be calling (that's how Francine found out her husband was cheating) and called an unfamilliar Manhattan number. She called and it was the shrink who answered. Poor Betty.
Deep: In those days it was probably perfectly ethical and permissible for a husband or spouse to ask a shrink what “progress” the person was making.
Not anymore. Doc would probably be sued up the wazoo and back if that happened today.
The beginning of this open thread is "Souvenir", yet they seem to have changed the name of the episode to "Summer Vacation". What gives?
@Deep Dish: Right. I just got thru all 13 episodes of S1 on DVD. My question is: at what point and for what reason in S2 did Betty STOP seeing the shrink???? I can't remember.
I think the shrink sort of vanished, just like Helen and her son.
Deep/Bi/Suze: There seems to be a missing fight between the spouses over the phone bill revelation. Or Betty didn't confront Don, just stopped the sessions, and all swept under the rug.
Thank you for your well wishes life is going on and it is getting a bit easier each day.Hubs left for for his step fathers funeral right after we got home so I am really waiting for the rhythm of normal life to start again.. Just not having someone to watch the show with makes it hard..somehow my eight and ten year old just dont get it.
I want Joan back
funny I am beginning to like pete.
the teacher creeps me out more every time i see her( could she have a box of souvenirs? )
we are still planning our Halloween Madness party where everyone comes dressed in 60 late 50s and we are serving on all vintage dishes etc..
@MadMenSuze: Was it you that posited on another thread you believe Ann may not actually exist? This disturbs me greatly. If Anna turns out to be just a figment of Don's imagination, I may throw up my hands and give up. That would mean that all our careful watching and analyzing is all for naught. I understand MW enjoys a little mis-direction, however, this story line and its characters are complicated enough without having to figure out what is "real" and what is not. Ugh!
@MadMenSuze: Indeed. What DID happen to Helen Bishop and her son? That story line would seem to be more important than ever now that Betty has admitted to herself that Don cheats on her. Helen, and Francine would be great people for her to confide in. Much better than the shrink. I guess that means much too much opportunity for Betty to grow and screws up whatever MW has in mind for her. @Fifty-two is right. Not knowing how many seasons one is writing for probably makes pacing difficult, not to mention character development.
*Anna
@fifty-two, that's the intriguing dilemma for a writer and that's the secondary tension we all are experiencing. The first tension is that of characters such as Don coming to grips with wisdom, maturity and his own identity. The second tension is that of experiencing how the writers wrestle with keeping the stories tension and character development while also wrestling with the realities of television boundaries. Just when does a writer, for example, give into Niles' infatuation with Daphne and allow them to become a couple (thereby destroying the entertaining tension)? And this is not to mention the pressures of contracts as we all experienced with the long delay of season three. Its too bad we have the television reality to factor into such a brilliant story. Gotta love reality (not).
@ MelbaToast, October 3, 2009 9:34 PM said:
Stage Kiss was in Maypole scene and says that Jon Hamm is 5'9" or so.
Really? How far away was she from him? I've had a chance to meet Hamm and some of the other cast members as well as Matt Weiner. Hamm is definitely taller than 5'9". I'm 5'5," and the day I met Jon Hamm, I was wearing 2 1/2" heels. Standing next to him in those heels, he stood about 4 or 5 inches taller than me.
@grinandbearit-- I noticed Hamm was quite a bit shorter than the actor playing Conrad Hilton last episode. If Hamm is 6' or so, Hilton must be 6'5.
@bipolarbear-- so cool you watched all of S1 again! In S2, Glenn Bishop comes to see Betty and is camping out in Sally's backyard playhouse. Betty calls Helen to come get him, and he says he now hates her for doing that. Betty talks briefly to Helen and tells her Don isn't living there. I guess we haven't seen more of the Bishops because of their past differences-- and because Betty's probably feeling some shame over their separation and she may wish to avoid Helen.
@Bipolar: Nope, that wasn't I who said Anna may be a figment of Don's imagination.
@BeenThere:
According to the preview, Pete states that Don "is in Dallas or Denver or something".
Hi Grin&Bearit.... I'm sorry that at the minute I can't remember exactly which thread that was on... (I think it was one where she was mentioning her experience, but had not yet turned it into a separate thread) and just now haven't the time to hunt for it but I will later, unless someone knows....(help!)
Anyway...as I recall, she said she was within handshaking distance of JH, JJ, and Ryan Cutrona several times during the day.
Hi BiPolar... your remarks to BC about "forgetting that people used to think that way" really struck a chord with me... I flashed on that so often in S-1 and S-2. I love what MW is doing... and think you're spot on about his subtext --- the more things change the more they stay the same. (I used to know the french for that, but CRS has overtaken me...)
@fifty-two, I think the guy playing Hilton is about 6'2" or 6'3," which would make him 3 or 4 inches taller than Hamm. I think that's about right.
I thought Don was supposed to be going to Italy? That's why he's taking Bets with him. Don't know why he's going to Italy -- or Dallas or Denver, for that matter. Isn't the Hilton business just in New York? Why all this travel all of a sudden?
@MadMenSuze: My bad. Somebody posited it. It's on the episode 7 thread with well over a thousand posts. I'll never find it back now.
@Fifty-two: Thanks. Now I remember. There was just too much time for me between S2 and S3. I've forgotten more than I ever knew. Looks like I'm gonna have to go rent S2 as well. According to my local video store, it's a new release. If we have to wait til the middle of the following season for the previous season of MM to come out on DVD--well, my "old-people" memory problem is setting in too quickly for that to work for me.
fifty-two: I recall reading on a different thread that MW said
MM would be 5 seasons long. If true it would be disappointing
for obvious reasons but at least he could more easily tell a coherent story with a time line. I hope it's not true though so we can look forward to more than a couple more years with Don/Dick, Pete, Peggy and the gang. Maybe someone on this thread knows if this is true.
Bipolarbear: I recall an episode in S1 where Don is talking on the phone with the Psychiatrist and complaining that Betts is making no progress. The shrink recommends deep psychoanalysis with 2 or 3 sessions each week at which point Don pretty much hangs up on him in disgust. That was the end of her therapy with him.
If anything, Peggy gave Duck an STD. Maybe Peggy got pregnant again and will keep this one. Maybe Don got an STD.
Here's a cast picture from the Screen Actor's Guild Awards. Michael Gladis and Aaron Staton are probably the tallest of the regular cast members. They stand about 6'2 or 6'3. Next would be Bryan Batt and Mark Moses, who are somewhere between 6'0 and 6'2. In this picture, it looks like Staton, Somer, Hamm, Slattery, Gladis, and Kartheiser are standing in the same row, and approximately in the same planar space. Robert Morse is standing slightly in front of them, and Mark Moses looks like he's behind them. With the exception of Slattery, Kartheiser and Morse -- whom we know are shorter -- there's not that big a height difference between Hamm and the other guys. If Hamm were only 5'9", we'd certainly see more of a difference, and he'd be closer in size to Kartheiser, Slattery, and even Christina Hendricks. I suppose he could be standing on a box or wearing lifts, but we'll never know that for sure.
@ScreamingEagle: What is a GO AROUND seeing as it isn't used anymore?
I realize that this isn't the "Christina Hendricks Forum", but I figure in this pre-show posting period, we have a little broader license.
I can't believe it just came to me, but the perfect role for Christina is that of Charity in the musical Sweet Charity. I don't know how she could possibly fit it in, or if another revival is even planned, but this lady is tailor made for the part.
@Trotskyaire: Then, after that, Betty gets the phone bill and calls one of the long distance #s on it (thinking she'll find a mistress at the other end) Instead, she gets the shrink. After that, we viewers are exposed to one last psych session in which she (Betty) tells the good Dr. about the scent of perfume, the sex where sometimes he's doing what she wants (Betty) and sometimes he's doing what somebody else wants and that she might be happier if her husband wasn't unfaithful. Far as I know, we have not had any more info regarding the shrink since then. Don't know if she's still going, if the shrink told Don what she said, if she just quit, if Don decided it wasn't doing any good. Just poof, no more info on Betty & the shrink.
That teacher thinks every man in the world wants her. Not every man is a philanderer. She seems to be calculating, manipulative, and envious. She called Don on the phone, using Sally as an excuse, and then complained to Don that he, and all the men who want her, have so much. She also said they were bored and she just really seemed not to like men.
@bipolar: Yeah, Helen and Glenn seemed to have vanished from the story arc. I guess they weren’t going to be a permanent story line.
Still wondering what the Brits will do now that the tractor incident has taken place. Maybe they’ll decide to scrap SC, maybe they won’t.
Ok,ok, I'll stop after this, I promise. But here is how it coiuld happen.......
In the final season of Mad Men (season 5 according to posts) in 1969 Joan is "discovered" and cast in the role of Charity. And in an amazing "art imitates life imitaes art imitates life" twist, Christina is cast in the Broadway revival. Coming off the heels of Mad Men, the show would draw a huge audience, assuming Christina could learn to sing and dance adequately.
@bipolarbear, it was I, Mambo Deb, who said that I don't think Anna actually exists. I have a thread "Is Anna a Figment of Don's Imagination?" from August that you can look at that explains my reasons why, if you're interested (they're acutally real reasons; I'm not TOTALLY bonkers). I'm sure I'll be proved totally wrong as most predictions are, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it! And I'll throw myself on the mercy of the MM Posters Court for my punishment when the time comes. :-)
@MMS: They just gave Don a fat raise with that contract under the guise of bringing in the Hilton account. This fish is big enough to make PPL want to hang on to SC for a while longer.
Just a few more hours until “Souvenir”
Anybody remember this song from that great 1946 film The Best Years of Our Lives?
PI168, this made me think of you. It was my mom’s favorite film.
AMONG MY SOUVENIRS
There's nothing left for me
Of days that used to be
They're just a memory
Among my souvenirs
Some letters sad and blue
A photograph or two
I see a rose from you
Among my souvenirs
A few more tokens rest
Within my treasure chest
And, though they do their best
To give me consolation,
I count them all apart
And, as the teardrops start,
I find a broken heart
Among my souvenirs
I count them all apart
And, as the teardrops start,
I find a broken heart
Among my souvenirs.
@Deep Dish: Thanks for posting the words to that song. I remember it from many years ago, but the words didn't have the same meaning to me then as they do now. I choked up a bit.
@Mambo Deb: Thanks. I'll check that out. Meanwhile, could you post the link again to your excellent Draper Home floor plan????
Thanks wasthere.
Mambo, read your thread and left a message. You are scarysmart. I've wanted to use that term since Maria Shriver did, first time I found the right time.
(although I do not agree, it is soooo intriguing, creative and wow)
YAY: IT IS MADMENDAY!
DARLINGS, I shall not bore you w/ any GORY details about my adventure after the U2 show other than I lost one of my fake Mink eyelashes!? It ended-up in somebody's pancakes at the brunch today!? BONO LIKES Mad Men yet says his wife Ali is the real Maddict!. Oprah/Gayle sent the last two seasons to her in Ireland at their castle and she MADores it! ALSO, Bill and Melinda Gates are huge fans too. Melinda knows Matt somehow as well! (C/O Yale!?)
I cd not believe that John Edwards had the audacity to attend the cocktail party. But he was there in an impeccable Tom Ford black sportscoat and black jeans-he is a U2 fan from way-back! He had two winsome Blondes on those coattails I must add. Poor, sweet Elizabeth!
My dear gal-pal: Jenny-whose Great-grandfather founded Duke University, was such the PURR-fect hostess at Heron's. We danced and drank and cavorted! (Bono was there about 20 mins before he went upstairs.) He was of course wearing his trademark sunglasses (tonight RED!?) because of an eye sensitivity?!-Which is why he usually wears them apparently. ENUFF! FUN!!!
AHEM: j9mac: "Rachel" is Dr. Maggie on FX's "Son's of Anarchy." DAMN, I KNEW she looked familiar! (take note Laurie B.!) GREAT!
- I saw on E"-News" that our Joan (Christina Hendrickson) is slated to marry a skinny Japenese fashion designer. Strange (she looks TWICE his size!?). Please Advise.
-hobocode52: I MADORE Jack White and The White Stripes and his other various projects! If The Rolling Stones are still alive in 2017 (Hullo Keith!?) they need to play at the ECLIPSE BASH too!
-Sugar Bear: (SORRY RACY!) I am rather a pornography addict (Surfers ALWAYS have porn playing on the VCR, in the background, at their parties; ALWAYS.) I developed an unhealthy habit (and yes DEAR ONES-that are trying to quit; I smoke 5 cigs-MARL/REDS per day) and enjoy tho' am often shocked at what they will actually do on camera these days. Tera Patrick, Sasha Grey, and Jenna Jameson are the WILDEST. It's ALL CURIOUS ! I consider my fetish a kind of Anthropological inquiry! Dr. K. doesn't even know, lest he have a fatal cardiac situation! (Yet, he unwittingly benefits: P'rap; P'raps NOT!?)
He's flying in at 9:05. He better leave me alone until after I view "Souvenir" TWICE! And have a bubblebath and a catnap and a catNIP!
X, CHEERS!
@Mambo Deb: I just read your thread on Anna. Very intriguing I must say! One thing disturbs me though, and it really doesn't matter if Anna is real or not. You said you'd just re-watched the episode (I need to) and:
"He also had to look up "her" number and write down her address; supposedly he had been there many times."
There is a problem with this. At one point in that episode she points to her new porch as says: "You like it? You paid for it" (or something like that) Supposedly he's sending her money to keep quiet, so why would he need to look up her address or phone number if he's sending her money??????
Mad Men makes my head hurt!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe he sends the money to a po box?
Kudos to Mambo Deb on your Anna theory, especially re: comparing the storyline with that of Peer Gynt. You are indeed supersmart as many posters here seem to be. That's part of why I love conversing with all of you. I don't know if Anna's real or not, but you convinced me it might be possible that she isn't. I really enjoyed looking at your floorplan of the Drapers' home too, especially the little comic touches like "clown dress". LOL.
Bipolarbear, I thought having to look up her address was sort of odd as well, but remember Don had not been to see Anna in person for some years-- possibly as many as 10-- since his marriage to Betty. In the flashback where he tells her about meeting Betty, Anna indicated they probably wouldn't see each other much after he got married and started his own family, etc.
I've been curious how Don's kept his sending money to California a secret from Betty all this time. Even if they're sent to a PO Box he has to account for the money somehow. Then there's the whole question of taxes. Guess it's all in the locked drawer...
Who knows? Maybe he wires money to Anna using a fake name; maybe he sends her a money order. Probably will be left to our imagination.
Maybe everybody in Mad Men is on a collision course:
Don is – everything is raveling at the seams – he got weasled into signing the contract, like he was some kind of bloody office boy. He pretty much rolled over and played Good Doggie.
Sal is – his wife is starting to figure out which twin really has the Toni, as the used to say back in the day.
Joan is – she’s finding out that her cushy life as a doc’s wife isn’t exactly going to happen (maybe he got bounced from the surgical rotation/residency – who knows? She said “Did they fire you?” and he hotly interrupted, “I don’t want to talk about it” as he retreated to their bedroom)
Roger is – what he had for Jane was plain ole infatuation and probably male menopause, while he was at it.
Peggy is – she got chewed out by Don and that offer from Duck is looking better and better (though she didn’t even have the horse sense to ask “how much will I be paid?”)
Pete is – both he and Kenny are in charge of one department. Both of them are being tried out – and it’s not looking great for Kenny since the little mishap with the JD lawn mower.
Betty is – she’s got a child she doesn’t want, the kids are acting like kids act and she just can’t handle that. And her husband’s boss calls and has her try to run interference for him?
Remember the words of Grandpa Gene: “All hell is about to break loose.” And we’ll probably see it all in the last episode of the season.
Hi pi & Bipolar.. sending $.... if I were Don I'd have an automatic wire transfer every month from a separate acct with statements sent to the office....
Mambo..exactly... who knows (?), Anna may be a chimera... stranger things have already happened on MM...
FanNan.... Lovely fun! Now that is the 452nd reason that I get that "Scarlett" feeling after certain of your posts... I know you remember the line... Positively Pea Green with Envy...(big accent on the green - wish I knew how to do that)
Counting down.... and will toast you and all the Maddicts tonight with my serviceable yet tasty glass of red ...
Sally seems to be acting out her feelings with violence. Although most posts have stated that she will become a hippie, I'm willing to bet that she will pull a "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" stunt and marry a black man to rebell against her parents when she gets older. Now wouldn't that be a kick in the head.
Sally also had no closure regarding Grandpa Gene's death.
Kids also have a very funky way of picking up vibes that something's not right at home.
"I'm willing to bet that she will pull a "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" stunt and marry a black man"
LOL
when my my catholic mom brought home my jewish dad in the 60s her parents declared " Couldn't have found a nice black guy instead?"
Yeesh, pi. That's awful.:(
47 more minutes......woo-hoo!!
Maybe I imagined it but didn't Don and others discuss a private bank acct where the statements were not sent to the home but to the office? It was a suggestion for a client. Some Bank or other.
Wait...are, are you telling me... that I've gotta read 147 comments before the show has even started?
Is that what you're telling me? Ah... I don't know if that's what I ahh... want to ahhh...do, going ahead reading all these posts.
What?... I'm actually contributing to the string of pre-show posts?
Whhell! I guess I should step AWAY from the computer!
Is that what you're telling me?
@Grinandbearit: Thanks for the link to the cast picture. I was amazed at how youthful Robert Morse still looks w/o his Bert get-up. He still looks very much like he did in "The Loved One". At least in this picture.
@ Helen- you are right about the private account. They called the Executive Account and the statements are sent to the office.
Here's the link to the Draper floorplan. I have a new version, but I messed up the scan and I'll have to rescan it tomorrow and post it tomorrow. It includes Sally's room, the nursery and some other new items. http://s644.photobucket.com/albums/uu170/mambodeb/
Thanks, all, for looking at my Anna theory and your lovely comments. I appreciate them a lot.
Only 20 more minutes! Gotta run.
The above link is not the latest version of the floorplan, that's coming tomorrow. That wasn't very clear.
**************************START HERE***************************
@Mambo Deb-- Do you have a Peer Gynt fixation too? Would love to hear about it!
Here we go!
"Cooper's in Jane" LOL!
woo-hoo nice guns Pete!
betty is left handed.
What happened to D&B their air conditioner? Did it go out & I missed it???????
I love the sound of the wall phone when Betts clicked it on and off! I even like the cord all wrinkled up. Love Davey & Goliath show!
Bonwit Teller.....NICE!!! Great detail....
My mother worked at Bonwit Teller! When did that store close? This episode is already so nostaligic for me.
Niedermeyer!!! (Spelling?)
Sally idolizes her mother so much
I can't look at that actor Judge w/out thinking of Animal House & a Twisted Sister video. He looks pretty good though, he must be up there.
OMG!!! OMG!!!
oh betts!!!!! what are you doing?
Betty!!!!!!!! You naughty, naughty girl!
Betty!!!!!!!! You naughty, naughty girl!
Looks like bringing her father's old car brought Betty some luck in more than one way.......
Mr. Francis sure figured out how to seduce Betty. Could be the first person to have ever told her he wants to make her happy.
Mr. Francis wants in Betty's pantses.
do you think betty will have a full bown affair on don? or just toy with it?
@ bipolarbear: ....which packs a mighty powerful punch.
the white dress is hot!! its like a uniform
Shopping-- YES!!!
holy crap joan!
WHOA!! Yay, Joanie!!
Hello Joan! She works fast.
OMG--Pete's returning something again, and it's JOAN!!
Psychiatry?? Is he nuts? LOL
poor joan.
OMG, Joan is working in a dept store! But as always, she handled seeing Pete very professionally. I like the way she said "this never happened".
Joan!!!
Joan looked very strange, kind of drawn in the face. Did she lose weight, or was it just the hairdo?
My parents had that same tan Samsonite luggage when we went to Rome in 1961.
anyone know italian? is betty's accent any good?
I think Betty could get used to this but Don's bushed. Her Italian must be from her modeling days??
Halfway through, this episode feels like it's in quicksand.
boytoy, i thought she looked thinner too. i want my voluptuous joan back!
Now, Joan has something on Pete. Shoot, us MADDICTS could have contrived that way to get Joan back!
Something bad is going to happen with one of the kids. I can feel it.
So was Betty insinuating that Don is gauche because he doesn't know how much to tip the bellhop?
Wow, now she looks like Virna Lisi!
God, is she stunning! She should enjoy herself with the hot Italians!
luchky Carla gets to watch her brats too....
Looks like Carla's got her hands full.
Yep, Betty's enjoying Rome. Great - she's flirting with Don.
betty and don are adorable.
awwww ....so romantic!!!
I love the game Don & Betty were playing & I loved the way Betty looked! Its about time D&B get a little action going......
But can he get a reservoir project stopped?
Sally-right, the perfect couple!
i love sally, obviously. she's such a good little actor.
Is it just me or did that whole scene with Don and Betts feel awkward and a bit out there?
classy Pete
Sally is going to need the services of Greg the shrink.
poor pete. can't catch a break. did i miss what happened to trudy... other than being on community on nbc.
"This never happened." Uh oh
kbf- good one.
Pete almost had me fooled. I thought he might do something nice just because. Naaah!
Okay. This whole episode is blowing my mind already!!! Pete, WTF?
goodstuff-agree, I thought it was a dream sequence for a minute!
sally needs a good spanking, really!
Yes- her italian is from her modeling days with that designer she mentioned to Francine- Giovanni/Gianni/Johnny - when she modeled the clothers for her.
Always with the missionary position, huh Betty?
And what's with Pete always knocking on girl's doors when he's drunk? He's a weasel. Those of you who thought he'd cleaned up his act, I'm thinking not so much.
Not very wise of Pete to pick a girl right down the hall......couldn't he have easily picked up a girl @ a bar that he wouldn't have to worry about seeing again? Surely not every woman in NY left town.
Ugh. They appear to be scrambling to shock us. This little Pete affair is not even slightly believable.
Oh great. The au pair might as well have been fired for the dress stain; now she has to (ahem) pleasure Pete, and probably get caught and fired for that.
Could make-up have PAINTED stretch marks on JJ?
Betty did just give birth 2 months ago! Nobody with 3 kids has a tummy like that!
Hilarious when those Italian cheeseballs (no offense to anyone, my heritage is Italian!) called Don ugly. He looked the business in that sport coat!
Where is trudy for this episode? They didn't really explain where she is...
I think Trudy is @ her parents house.
fainting couch mode again......
KBF-yeah, this shock treatment is too much, again! Everybody's out of character (cept Pete). Are they all doing mushrooms-including Sally?
fainting couch mode again......
pete got caught with his your know what out.
Wow, that guy (Mr. Lawrence) used to be on a show called "China Beach" way back. He has really aged.....
I like to watch Madmen for the furnishings too. Does anyone know what they called those geometric cut-outs room dividers like the one in Peter's apartment?
Anybody know if they still make stuff like this?
Hah - Pete got caught. And oops Trudy is back. Talk about awkward elevator rides.
C'mon, he's suddenly got a conscience? What's up with that?
pete's an idiot. i can never decide whether i love him or hate him. this week i hate him.
@shuffle-I noticed it right away cuz it is in one of my favorite restaurants in LA called Cecconi's. Maybe it's on their site if u google it. I love that look & have many pics of me in front of it. Actually, MM had some party there a weeks b4 I was there and I missed Hamm :(
Looks like Pete & Trudy won't be dancing the Charleston for a while............
ANd now Pete is going to confess?
It's Bizarro World Madmen!
Pete is honest. He can't handle the guilt. So, are we to perceive that Trudy knows????
I think we're about to find out that Pete is really the misogynist he's shown hints of being....probably hated his mother.
We have officially entered soap opera territory.
Lot's of submissive women this week Betts to Francis; Deutsche woman to Pete; Joan to Pete in the store. The only one w/power is Sally! lol
I think Trudy suspects, men don't tear up like that because they broke a coffee cup while the wife was out visiting her parents.
Who knew Betty could to the Mom thing?
Anybody else feel like this episode is laying groundwork for more to come?
Aww ... Betty's thawing with Sally. Maybe she and Don need to get away more often.
F**kin' hell! So it's TRUDY's fault then for going away? Okay, I'm with @SallyDraper....hate him tonight!
i went to lake george when i was a kid growing up in tarrytown ny! haha! awesome.
yes pete definitely hated his mother
Since this was the August episode, I assume everyone was on vacation. How did this advance anything? This was the worst episode that I've seen of Mad Men, sorry to say..
What is on the counter as Francine and Betty enter the kitchen? Is that a tray of Lasagna? Warm memories of Italy?
Ouch!! What was that about?
what the hell is up with betty? talk about hot and cold!!!
Lasagne in a pyrex dish-- my mom made that. Francine looks great in that lemon slacks outfit.
Betty's doing an April Wheeler-- straight out of "Revolutionary Road". She's so ungrateful.
"There's a Small Hotel"-- whose version, anyone?
Back to her life and misery I guess.
I think Bettie suffers from bipolar disorder..........
Betty is def Bi-Polar! And now Sally's got it, too. Next week looks sick, I can't even go there, I will wait for all the experts to analyze & read tomorrow.
@fifty-two: Great comparison. I thought the same thing.
Why was Betty hot and cold? Because Don was the Rockefeller aide. When she was getting what she wanted -- the delay -- she was happy. WHen she didn't -- when the decision was reversed -- she wasn't, and took it out on Don. The aide represents the fantasy life she wants, with Italian men making passes at her. Don represents reality, and Betty is much much too selfish to want anything to do with reality. Reality is not the realm of the princess.
So what was the souvenir? The 3 kisses – the one Betts got from Mr. Resevoir, the one Sally got from Ernie and the one Pete got from the au pair?
Did anybody get a flash back of Joy -- in a way, that's who Betty remided me of when she was a tthat table waiting for Don?
Betty goes to Italy and comes back and makes lasagna for the kids when she gets home (but the kids didn't like it.)
i get it kbf, she was mad at mr. francis and took it out on don. anymore, betty seems to be such a weak character. i just want to slap her.
Are you guys being serious about the bi-polar thing with Betty? I seems to make perfect sense that she can be a different person (happily married to Don, no kids) when they were in Rome and then she returns home, where she is miserable and she remembers the Don that she is married to. I don't know, too simplistic?
Poor Pete, he'll never disappoint us from revealing his weaselly ways. You dumb shmuck!
Poor Betty, if she could dump those kids at the side of the road somewhere, she could have her glamorous life back, away from her stuffy old dingy kitchen, flirting with playboys and collecting first kisses.
Poor Don, he's getting the hang of loving his wife and catching fireflies, and gets an unpredictable reaction from the script.
Poor Joan... I know, say no more, but, poor Joan!!!
If not bi-polar, then just simply needs a lot of attention, as KBF kinda said, Princess Syndrome!
Betty gave me a headache. Not to say the episode wasn't good because IT WAS but I still want to reach through the television, grab her by the shoulders & shake her til the curls go flat.
No more storyline on Joan? Must the writters tease us so?
So Betty's going to decide the night before to leave a two-month old baby and her two other kids and fly to Rome.
So she's going to let the government aide kiss her outside the building where the community meeting was held?
So Pete is going to make a drunken pass at a college-aide kid who lives down the hall?
So Pete is going to take a dress to a department store to have it replaced when he doesn't own it?
Sure.
The only thing realistic about this episode was that Sally beat the hell out of her brother.
OK, I'm becoming repetitive, but this was lame, and very disappointing.
Anybody else feel that Francine rained on Betty's parade? First, she put her and Carleton's "after baby fling" in the same catergory as Betty and Don's trip to Rome. (And we know that Betty considers herself superior). Then, to "ice the cake" Francine implies to Don that Betty has shared all the intimate details of their romantic Rome escapade. That really pissed Betty off. Can't say that I blame Betty for being upset at that last tactic.
Betty's speech to Sally was about comparing the first kiss (Francis) to all those afterward being shadows of the first (Don). Francine is wise to her, and Betty knows it.
"When you have no power, delay." That's what Mrs. Draper is doing with Mr. Francis. She gets off on being a pr--k teaser.
That was my stab at what this episode was about.
Anybody else?
Behuller? Buehuller? Buehuller????
summer- amen!!!
kbf- agreed, slow moving and not believeable.
i want joan and peggy back. now those are some female characters we all can love.
What is up with the Pucci type dress? Is it a nod to the Italian experience or a costume device to show the loosening/relaxation of her personality/emotions?....Gone is the typical crinoline fare that she usually sports.
@ManMenSuze. Here's my stab: Let's show we can do some really cool set designs from Rome. We'll worry about telling a story next week.
@MadMenSuze - At the very least, it certainly is not a coincidence that the souvenir that Don chooses to get Betty is a Coliseum charm......a charm symbolizing ruins that she has to look at....eek
I thought she was trying to have a little Italy at hime...
Betty is just disappointed to come back to her ho-hum life after the excitement of Rome...even if they did stay in the hotel the whole time. But, instead of trying to re-capture the romance and hang on to it, she blames Don. Strange.
@ TakeFive: YES, I agree Franchine was being a bit of a bit**. And the way Don looked back @ her after she said it should have given her a hint that it wasn't appreciated.
But now we know what the souvenir was.
And the "hamlet" mayor (Mark Metcalf) not only was Niedemeyer on Animal House but "The Maestro" in Seinfeld. He and Elaine go to Tuscany. Another Italian reference. tee hee
Yes, Pete Campbell has quite a sense of entitlement, but he is much more complex, interesting, and sympathetic than it might seem at first. I believe he models his (rather inauthentic) mannerisms after Robert Young's, and surely watched Father Knows Best as a kid. (The physical resemblance is striking, don't you think?) Deep down, he's pretty conflicted, about his dad, family, his own feelings for women. He is truly attracted to Peggy -- because she's intelligent and morally complex herself, and that says something positive about who is he and what he wants.
I just hope I can have a lot of first kisses, too!
Betty should runaway to Hollywood, she'd make a great actress.
You're a staahr baby!
The guy who lit Betty's cigarette in the lobby -- was that Sal's guy? I think so!!
@MADtini - The Maestro!! Of course! Hilarious.
I have been in the same position as Joan and it is brutal on the soul to run into a former coworker.
@sallydraper - I'm usually willing to stick up for Pete, and I was tonight too until he got wasted and slept with the German au pair...that was a very sleazy situation and even though he was drunk, I'm surprised he went that far. I guess it's 1 step forward, two steps back with him. Also surprising - that a) he's done this several times before (we know about the model and Peggy, are there other women?) and b) Trudy knows this and is willing to stick with him. Why?
@Maddicts: Could the souvenir be the gift Don bought Betty and she frowned at?
@Fifty two: I've been to the "small hotel" that the song was written about. It's called the Stockton Inn and it's in Bucks County, PA. There is a wishing well and a waterfall outside. Many celebrities stayed there overnight (Bing Crosby, Fred Astaire, etc.). Don't know who this particular rendition is by. I'll listen again.
@adamx6000 - Absolutely. The look on her face when she first sees him was painful. Her recovery was so fascinating to watch as well. She is such a great actress.
What's with the reference to the smell(s) in the hotel? Rubber or Diesel? What was that about?
And wasn't that corset ribbon in the back of the dress white when it was pulled from the incinerator drop...and then it was pink when Pete handed that aupair the replacement dress?
And for a very upscale co op wow, that hall looked pretty run down and shabby. Since when are items allowed to be left in the hallway in a fancy coop?
I forgot it was Bonwit Teller and expected Rachel Menken to be the higher-up requested by Pete.
@bipolarbear - I was wondering about that too. The pollution in Rome maybe? But they were indoors I guess......
Wow! Don is even prettier than the men of Italy. DDsAMN!!
ok, is it normal for a mother of a 2 month old to have such a perfectly firm belly?
Grandpa Gene and "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" a few eps ago...Voila, they are in Rome.
Just grasping at straws.
there's not a lot of love on this blog for Betty, but every time she's on screen my heart breaks for her. It's so weird that she was raised to believe that she's only as good as she looks (that "house cat" comment from Gene a few episodes ago was the meanest sincere comment I've ever heard) and she has no idea how to even articulate what's wrong, or to recognize that she's got ambition.
As for Pete - well, I've got nothing...
I think we've all got nothing, Crowfoot.
jacklq: No. Absolutely not normal.
and that little Sally Draper will surely be able to handle herself against all the cops in riot gear in a few years. She's got a great left hook.
Left hook is that the correct fight reference? Boxing scares me.
The previews for next week look interesting. Much anxiety in the air.
@MadMenSuze, re: the Campbell's Park Ave. co-op, you're right if that were the front entrance, but the hallway Pete was first walking down with his bag of trash is the service entrance or back hallway, generally only used by household staff. Then we see their actual front door when the neighbor comes over.
Bicycles and whatnot are definitely not allowed in the main halls of most co-ops. I live in one too-- not as upscale as Pete's-- but it is a co-op.
@bipolarbear great question, could it be from all the exhaust of the traffic outside?
I have to agree with KBF not the best episode ever still it was good enough that it flew by.
One thing this show has done for me is confirm the vast mysteries of the female mind. what is with you people yes I said You People!
As far as Bobby and Sally fighting, that is so normal. Please let's not project anything dire onto Sally's persona. She was just playing house as we used to call it, or car in this case. And siblings that close in age fought all the time, at least in my experiences at home atnd at friends house's.
C'mon. Does Pete really surprise us? He slept with Peggy right after his bachelor party...like 2 days before his wedding.
WOW Betty wore those new fangled pantyhose things,,
Sally is kind of a bruiser
Pete..makes me sad (were he and trudy "on a break"jk)
Joan makes me sad too..she is so classy
@Crowfoot, oh no, I LOVE Betty! She's just so fun to poke fun, but I love her complexity as well. She's just as important to the story, if not more than the Office characters. She's a stahhrr!!!
OKAY, can we all just agree to never discuss the fact that Betty was wearing pantyhose? Deadly serious here.
and FALSE ALARM: the cigarette lighting guy is not Sal's bellhop. Sorry about that.
That looked like normal sibling behavior to me. Every kid out there has probably popped his or her kid sister or kid brother.
And haha, Betty was so concerned about being seen with another man in broad daylight, yet she’s off snogging this dapper don after some town meeting. Heh.
@MadmenSuze agree with you about the hallway. quite dingy. I thought it was a dream sequence since it was so incongrous with the apts.
Shelby, that is not straw-grasping! Rise and Fall indeed.
Carla starts talking seriously about Sally's temper and Don immediately finds something else to do. A discipline problem with the kids??? OK, time for Don to check out.
Okay guys, help out. Does any man take off a shirt the way Pete did? And laughing out loud at cartoons? Tell the truth.
So Joan is new there and she rustled up a freebee dress or what have you for Pete? As the other salesperson pointed out, anybody can sew in a tag and say the dress came from a Bonwit.
That doesn’t seem real, either.
And no: it was never made clear where it was that Trudy went.
I think the bunch of us are grasping at straws is right. And I can hardly wait to see what my local board has to say about this ep.
I don't find Betty to be complex at all. She's vain, shallow and selfish. Almost all of her actions fall under one of those three headings.
Well, one can say all they want about Don's unsavory ways, but the contrast between Don choosing, or at least chasing, the willing ones, and old Pete Campbell preying on the weak and vulnerable ones.....blech
Lots of very understated twisting and turning here:
Interesting parallel here of usery of relationships.
Is Henry using business to get Betty in the sack? Is Betty allowing Henry's attraction to her as use as a tool for her cause. Or, is it also her using him for her esteem? Then, Pete using Joan to get the dress, and using the dress to get the girl.
Did you catch the Hermes?
Great line, Joan to Pete: This never happened. Not the dress, Pete meeting her at her new job.
And after they were home and Betty didn't put out with Henry, did you catch where she says the board had a secret meeting and Betty's side may lose?
The many facets of Mrs. Draper:
On one hand Betty is in a very subtle way slowly ebbing in to, or slowly similar of, a metaphor of the idea of a MadWoman. She's employing the element of sex and the boardroom, just underlying rather than overt; one of the basic differences between men and women, overt vs subtle.
Betty is subtle in using Henry. Pete is not so subtle in his overture toward the girl.
Also, Betty and the booze. Booze is a big part of the boardroom. Here we had Betty telling Don she poured him a beer, not girly wine. Betty is also drinking beer at the same time; a little more masculine than feminine. Later Betty pours some nasty flat champagne in a cup and drinks it (January makes a great face there) like the guys at the office would probably do. She takes charge in Italy being the one to speak the language.
But on the other hand as well, Betty's selfishness and esteem issues show up again to conflict with that. She ends up as we learned in the end, not wanting to go to Rome with Don for Don and business, but for herself.
(tangent: remember season 1 when Betty was telling of her experiences in Italy modeling, and the guy "Johnny")? I was thinking that was going to be revisited, in more ways than one.
So she goes to Rome for herself, using Don (again the theme of usery here tonight) to, like a man actually, re-live her own version of glory days. Maybe the equivalent of a guy buying his first sportscar he had years ago when he retires.
Betty then proceeds to walk down the runway if you will as she enters the cafe. The glamorous hair, the walk, the attention. She needs the attention from the men, like she enjoys the attention from Henry.
I found this extremely interesting: At the cafe she plays the role of one of Don's conquests. But she knows he really does that. And she however plays the role anyway and enjoys it. Very, very interesting.
The best line was Betty telling Sally, you'll have a lot of first kisses. Betty is having a new first kiss with this evolution of her in the venture outside the house and into her own version of a business world like her husband has, so to speak in her own way.
Then you have Don. Progressing through this season we've had Don, usually at the end of episodes, showing a quick tender affection toward Betty. Here, this is not his usual Don sex. He's not treating her like his usual conquest, nor is he rolling on top of her saying I had a good dream. He's affectionate. He's attentive to her. He's attentive to her body, appreciative of beauty.
Was Seven Twenty-Three the death date of Don as we had known him?
Then you have the contrast of Don and Pete, yet again regarding their sex this episode. Opposite types of encounters. Yet, both Don and Pete at the same time have a parallel as well; Pete is in the same position Don was at the end of last year. She knows. Yet Pete, just like Don if you notice, won't SAY what he did. Very interesting dynamic between Pete and Don; Here both opposite yet one in the same as well.
So Betty is such a bell curve. On one hand she's exhibiting a growth, a shadow of a MadWoman. But then she falls, similar to the opening credits, back into Betty. Betty as much as she seemed to be coming out of her fog, in the end, we find out she's still only interested in fantasy land. Last episode we saw her alone and her hands wander down south after the meeting with Henry. The washing machine Season 1. Fantasy. Here she's unhappy at the end being back home in reality. Italy was a real life fantasy for her, and she lived it. That's always been what makes her, her. One big conflict with reality and fantasy land in so many ways.
Betty is still Betty.
But, is Don still Don?
A lot of quid pro quo expected from the men. Henry Francis expected something for his good deed and so did Pete. This will probably start a firestorm, but I think what Pete did is considered rape by coercion. Does anyone remember the Law and Order episode with Regina King as the lady lawyer who was coereced into sleeping with her boss to make partner? The other option is that her boss would ruin her career. Tonight's episode made me think of that. I clearly remember Sam Waterston's delivery to the jury. He was saying things that were examples of rape by coercion (blackmailed into having sex.) Well tonight one of those things could be "sleep with me or I'll make sure you lose you job and are sent back home."
@G, that's great to hear. I feel we're observing the geratest transformation because we're watching somebody find herself. She's clumsy and she's slow but she's doing it. Her comment to Sally about living the shadow of a first kiss is actually very profound. Peggy at least has practical training and a career, and recognizes her amibition, but Betty is on her own.
MMSuze I have been to a few town board meetings in my town, quite boring, but I thought the three Junior Leaguers were going to attack Mr. Francis right there. Enjoyed seeing Bob Cobb in the aforementioned scene.
i hope Pete used a condom this time!!!
i love how well Joan handled her shock/expression.
i doubt if Betty made the Lasagna... it was probably Carla.
interesting that Ed knew when his property was tampered with... so similar to slavery days.
i loved Trudy's Chanel scarf!
Pete is a Punk and Trudy knows it!
i was disappointed by Betty's reaction to the charm! it was a great thought.
i love how the writers change the pacing, the characters, and even the chemisry of the show every week. how outstanding!
OMG --DeepDish ...I am so LOL now re: how he took off his shirt..like how a little boy would undress himself?...Davy and Goliath??
The way he bowed his head when "confessing" to Trudy? He is absolutely infantile..but I have to give him points for honesty (with both the neighbor and Trudy)
@MadMenSuze, Joan is a Manager for that department, she has the power to make that kind of call on a return.
Unfortunately, I'll have to reveal myself with this experience in Retail. When a customer is going to potentially make a stink about a return, a Manager must find a reasonable solution to the situation. The damaged dress would be inventoried out as damaged within the store. Ugg! Retail. Poor Joan!!!
By Deep Dish on October 4, 2009 11:49 PM
Okay guys, help out. Does any man take off a shirt the way Pete did? And laughing out loud at cartoons? Tell the truth
My EX-husband..but then theres reasons hes an ex
some guys take dress shirts off like that so as not to pull the button holes out of shape if they are hand taylored
Did this episode accomplish ANYTHING in terms of pushing the story forward? I mean, we already knew Betty wasn't happy, knew she had a crush on Mr. Francis, knew that Pete was a cad, etc. We learned that Joan has a new job, and that's pretty much it. Is the big mystery of this season whether Sally will be able to overcome her inner rage? We only get 13 or so episodes. It just befuddles me why they would waste one, and this felt like a waste. I don't get it. It doesn't feel like we've moved one inch from last week.
Here's a really crazy guess at what happened to Joan: wonder if she left Dr. Rapist? Somehow I get the feeling that he's no longer in the picture.
@MadMenSuze - I don't think she's left him yet, but i'm guessing/hoping she will by the end of the season.
@ Crowfoot: Don't get me wrong, I like Betty, she just frustrates me sometimes. She went from the highs of Rome to the lows of day-to-day life which isn't all that bad for her. It reminded me too of Revolutionary Road, lets hope Bettie's story ends way better than that did. That last scene (for me) was like: "What happened???" She had me going that the episode would end on a good note & then BAM, the reality check. The neighbor, the kids, the house, a new baby & no more Rome. But I did enjoy seeing her happy when she was in Rome.
Oh no he is still in the picture and has been advised to leave the glamours life of surgery for a career of head shrinking because it is the latest cutting edge science! translation he cant kill anyone.
@MadMenSuze: Greg is in the picture. I've seen plot outlines for upcoming episodes. Auburn Annie posted them on this board a few weeks ago. There was a spoiler alert. I don't think I'm giving anything away to say that Joan didn't leave her husband in the last couple of weeks.
And to the person who said there was no previous mention of where Trudy was, it wasn't mentioned in this episode, but in past seasons it's been discussed that her parents either have or rent a summer home.
@tantem: good call on Pete vs. Don philandering.
@hobocode: what are you referencing specifically. I'll try to help. (You People)
I, too, wondered about the rat doctor...she seemed to pick "psychiatry" out of thin air just to end the conversation about him.
Joan looked beautiful...loved her new hair style and the lavender dress.
How much do you want to bet that au pair will be knocking on Pete and Trudy's door in 9 months with a bundle of joy all for them just before she hightails it back to Germany.
I curse the Mad Men writers for being so good!
I felt for both Betty and Pete in this episode, and I don't think it is a coincidence that they were both featured in compromising positions.
Yes, Pete was a weasel, but this season has shown his growth, however snail-paced. If this was Season 1, we would not see Pete's remorse, because there wouldn't have been any. He is surely grasping the grown-up-intimacy-with-spouse thing a lot quicker than Don, who is years into his marriage, with kids, and continues to be unfaithful.
And Betty! So in her element in Rome, and what a letdown, arriving back in surburbia, with its pettiness - nosy neighbors, etc. She had an emotionally honest reveal with her daughter, about first kisses, just as Pete had a true emotional reveal with Trudy...privileged people having to grasp the nuances of honest everyday give and take...and while I agree with the earlier poster who said she was purposefully 'delaying' things with Mr. Francis, I also think there was true guilt when she glanced at the ridiculous fainting couch before having her kiss talk with Sally...truly complex characters!
@Greg: more disturbing than telling her she would have a lot of first kisses is that she said every kiss after is just a shadow. Yikes. "Sally, just go be a ho."
Was Betty's scarf a Hermes? I'd be lying if said I could tell the difference.
@MadMenSuze and Crowfoot, I laughed when Joan suggested that Rapie might be switching his specialty to Psychiatry (she spat the word out), it sounded like he was looking into it as a patient! Ha!
@tamtam - Absolutely the truth that Pete becomes the sexual aggressor only in situations where the woman is in a subservient role: Peggy, the model (she was trying to get that job at SC right?), this poor au-pair. Completely the opposite of Don who is attracted (in affairs) to women with power and/or mystery and/or strength, etc. This was a new low for Campbell.
oh, and why was it hotter at night (needing fans) than in the day (did not need fans). notice the fan is off when she comes back in from the dry cleaners.
@ Deep Dish - i interpreted that completely differently: I thought Betty could finally identify what's making her so unhappy and she's advising her daughter to take more time than she did. But Sally is, what, 10 years old? Betty's comment wouldn't make any sense to her.
I agree with those who found Pete's ultimate motivation towards helping Frau Drescher, shallow , base, and loathsome. Maybe I am the lucky recipient of never having to resort to trickery or bullying to aquire sex as I grew up in a time when women enjoyed sex as much as men.
As I stated a few posts back, not my favorite episode, a lack of humor was detrimental to the whole show tonight. I did however roar one time when Pete said "Let me speak to the manager" clerk replies "of the entire store" and Pete retorts " Of the Republic of dresses.
I can't recall any extended scenes with Joan and Pete before. any tips on that?
and Greg, I always assumed it was "Gianni", and are you sure that was champagne and not bottled water? I'll take a second look.
and everybody: is it just me, or does Don just look older? Still beautiful, but aging.
I think Pete felt so bad because he more or less raped the poor nanny. If she refused him,he could possibly tell her employer's about the dress. Or as he showed her, be willing to make up a total lie. Just like when he told her to just say one of the kids did it, "they have a girl don't they?"
Betty-- Whattab***h! She was so cold to Don after they came home from Rome. I would have been really "greatful" to my husband for taking me to Rome.
Once I was sent to the Carlisle Hotel to be a temporary switchboard operator. In the lobby, a gilded door opened up into the switchboard room which looked like crap, very shabby and messy.
Joan and another bloody dress.
Loved the glamorous sexy hotel vacation, and Betty having an effect on Don.
That episode for me was part romance and part total bummer. I'm not sure how Betty responded to Henry Francis. It seemed like she was dissapointed by his not so subtle seduction technique. I thought he showed himself to be very forward, not a gentlemanly seducer at all. If I were in her shoes, I would write him off right there. He was just too demanding, "So I did you a favour, now can you sleep with me?" I'd think he was a creep. In contrast, Duck, last week, was not making any promises to Peggy. She asked about being copy chief and he told her, "maybe, after they get used to you." And when she asked about Hermes and Paris, he honestly let her know that it's the Hermes people who come to New York, not the other way around. Say what you will about Duck, but he is looking a lot better than Pete and Henry Francis, and at least he's not a married philanderer like Don.
Pete may have majored in business at college and minored in rape along with his other fat bothers, as did his neighbor, who I waited with baited breath to punch his lights out, but turned out to be a 'bother'. What a couple a tools.
KBF--I hear ya. Especially the part about only 13 episodes a season. An episode like this makes you ask yourself: "why am I watching this again?" As I said earlier, we have definitely hit soap opera territory. I thought MW said he wanted to avoid that? It's as if the writers don't know ultimately where they are going. Somebody posted a link to an article a couple weeks ago (Vanity Fair?) that I read where MW basically said he had S1 in his head for years and he wrote that, but that was basically it. I'm really beginning to believe MW has no idea where this is going. I swear, if this ends like the Sopranos I will be P*SSED!!!!!
I am pretty certain the replacement dress had a different color ribbon in the back – maybe the wife noticed that the ribbon was not the same color and hence, it was not the same dress. Could be the au pair got in huge trouble over the dress switch incident, or maybe even fired.
@Deep Dish - Correct. That was water, Acqua Panna, not champagne.
@NeverNotTasty - yeah one of the reasons I'm having a really hard time with this episode is that as scummy and awful as Pete has been in the past, his infidelities (that we've seen, although Trudy stomping off suggested maybe more?) have been consensual. Peggy dragged him into her apartment, the model was totally into sleeping with him. The situation with the au pair was definitely not consensual, although it wasn't what Greg did to Joan either. But it made me extremely uncomfortable regardless and also sad - I honestly didn't think he'd actually basically force the girl to sleep with him. I thought he'd get rebuffed or one of the little kids would wake up or the boyfriend would still be there.
And Sal sort of vanished for now. We have not seen him since Don said “You are now a commercial director.”
I guess I must like soap opras, because I thought this episode was great. It made me think that maybe the reason Don fools around, is because he can't do anything right in Betty's eyes.
Crowfoot. True, and I love Sally's innocence: "But I already did it." I'm not even going to take this to the next level. Poor Sally.
Hobo: "The Republic of Dresses" I am so going to use that ... the republic of whatever. And exactly WHEN did you grow up? just kidding. We like you just the way you are.
I think you are right, now that I think about it, did Pete and Joan ever have a conversation?
PREDICTION: Next week opens with Joan. Something's brewing.
I'm also pretty sure Joan knew Pete was up to some kind of bs. That dress was most definitely not a Trudy kind of dress. Nor was it her size.
Let me preface what I'm about to say with a plea that you please don't hate me, because I don't mean it to come out as catty as it's going to, BUT...:
I can't help whether January Jones has had botox injections, especially in her forehead. She always has such a flat affect even when she purses her lips in frustration or fusses at Don. Or maybe JJ is that good an actress to be able to control her facial expressions that completely. Either way, it's a little disconcerting to me.
I know Betty is one big walking repression, but a little bit of subtle facial expression wouldn't be out of line.
On another line, near the end of the episode, when Don asked her what was wrong and she was enumerating the things she hated, I thought she was about to say, "I hate the kids, I hate my life."
Also, yay for seeing Joan again! I did notice that her hair looked a little less styled, like maybe money was tight enough that she hadn't been going to the beauty shop as often as when she worked at SC. Regardless, she still knows what to do in a sticky situation.
Loved Don's line, "You're tiny!" when Betty took off her shoes. In fact, loved seeing the two of them flirting with one another.
Error: Meant to type, "I can't help BUT WONDER whether January Jones..."
Did anyone but me notice the more classic way Joan was dressed for her Retail Management job? Not the loud, sexy, see my boo bs kind of dresses she was always wearing at SC? Proof if your going to sell women's clothing to women you aren't trying to appear sexy, you're trying to appear put together.
Oh, stop all this blubbering about the pace and lack of action in these episodes. I savor each one like a fine glass of grape juice. I swish and roll it around in my mouth, then squirt it back into the glass, then drink it again. Mmmm...'Mad Men.'
Mmm...Don, look at that view!
@Bipolarbear not cracking wise as is my penchant, the "You People" of course refers to women. Don took her to Italy ,role played had some sex ,bought her a trinket, and she is pissed. It seemed to me like Don hit the ball out of the park, and now she is sending him to the bench. I never read that men are from mars and women are from krypton book, so if you can help a brother out, and save me the cost of a book ,please do so.
I wanted to wait and try to digest the episode (twice) before I commented on what was my first impression. Unfortunately, I have to stick with my impression, that being disappointment. I too agree that nothing substantial was really accomplished here. It felt like fluff. Okay, sure, even MM fluff is better then the best episode of, say, NCIS, or something like that. But, yeah, disappointing.
@giantsfan21: I've been a big Pete supporter. You may have seen me agree with you either today or late last night that I also thought he was not as black as he's painted. But right now I'm truly shocked and saddened by what he did. That was a really young girl who did not know what to do with him and was too scared and too inexperienced to call his bluff. That to me was much worse than Joan's rape. This was stranger rape.
@Betty Crocker: I look forward to hearing from you, with your legal background, on this topic. I can see that in 1963 that would not have constiututed rape but what about now?
G: You're right. The neighbour is a tool as well.
Deep:
Hermes was in Joan's store, the sign. My fault, I could have worded that better.
But funny you mentioned Gianni, I actually almost typed that spelling (although I still would have gotten it wrong bc I would have spelled it Gionni) but I remembered how she had said he loved America so he called himself Johnny/Gianni, so I chose Johnny. I really thought she was going to look him up while Don was busy.
And I thought it was flat champagne because she gives the face of drinking not so savory booze, having a little trouble downing it. Or maybe it's warm wine. And, she pours two fingers into the cup. It's interesting either way but it was the face she makes is why i thought that.
@hobocode: jan001 said it: Betty is just big walking repression. As long as she's modeling (walking the runway at the restaurant in Rome) and getting oodles of male attention, she's fulfilled. Or, as fulfilled as Betty can be. She is completely unchallenged and bored to death with her life. While she was in Rome she felt great about herself. Women who feel great about themselves want sex -- a lot! Women who don't feel great about themselves (or, in some cases their men) don't want sex. For the poor, average male, this is very hard to read or understand.
@by G: I agree with you. It was the same on the Soprano's chat room. If someone didn't get whacked every episode they cried in their beer. This show is like fine wine. Don't gulp it, sip it and enjoy!
@Hobo: Your GINTS won today. Smile!
I enjoyed the flirty pretend-we're strangers-in-front-of these Italian-men scene too. Rare that we've seen that kind of playful, sexy chemistry between Don and Betty lately. It reminded me of a Cary Grant/Audrey Hepburn kind of scene. And it really boosted Betty's spirits. Unfortunately, the small charm -- (thanks for identifying it as the colesium)--
just reminded Betty that their "escapade" was just that -- akin to a trinket to remind her of the two great days they've had in the last 365.
Yes, I thought Betty did have a bit of a "Joy" aura about her -- and the Rome trip a bit of the Palm Springs cachet.
My favorite line: When Betty asks Don what the smell is, Don's reply is:
"Which one?"
(I expect the main smell was the diesel fuel).
@G: You kill me!
I got the impression that Betty was not happy with Don's sexual performance in Rome.
Compare the way she brushed her dress after Don kissed her goodbye to the way she caressed her dress on the fainting couch.
And is it generally pretty much an unspoken rule in certain countries that a woman unescorted does not speak to an unescorted man? (Especially in the year 1963, when rules and wherefores were a great deal more rigid?)
That’s the story I got from a friend of mine – you cannot casually say “hi” to a male stranger when you’re in Italy or any other country — I was also told that if a woman did indeed do that, she’d be looked upon as more or less a prostitute. So if what I heard is correct, Betty made a major gaffe, etiquette wise, when she was in Rome.
like California in season two, I think the art department did a good job in creating a contrast universe in Rome that had none of that Alfred Hitchcock look they always have for New York. I really felt that Don and Betty were thousand miles away, even when in reality they probably never left Hollywood.
In season two, California had this very early James Bond Movie/Stanley Kubrick feel to me. Since this season was in Rome, it might have been molded after Fellini.
It seams that Rome was meant to have a very modern look that shows a new civilization built over an old one. A civilization that has once had morals and civil oppression that no longer works in modern times. Like the morals and civil oppression that will soon change in America in the time Mad Men.
NNT it seems to me the neighbor was upset in the way someone would be bothered if you borrowed their lawnmower without asking.
And Pete come on dude how do you cheat that close to home.
@DeepDish and others laugh at cartoons , sure at Davey and Goliath not so sure and I have never personally taken off a shirt like that. I thought Pete shirtless resembled a teenage boy, which is what I guess he is at heart when it comes to the opposite sex.
Hi, fellow Maddicts!
Written while watching so as not to forget anything- so here is my stream of consciousness...
Henry - drat!
I'm hoping Betty's decision to go to Rome means she regrets the kiss with Henry. I thought the scene at the ristorante was so cute between her and Don. The comments of the two Italian men serve as a reminder of the European attitude towards "ugly Americans" and that it is not recent.
Pete! It was too much to hope he got the dress fixed just because he wanted to be helpful. But now he's looking guilty and near tears - about kids, as Trudy thinks, about the au pair - which?? Now that was unexpected!
Poor Joan - I felt so bad for her seeing Pete at the department store, but as always, she handled the surprise with a clear head. I imagine she expected this may happen at any time. If Dr. Raper goes into psychiatry, he may be rich after all.
I loved Betty's talk with Sally. Memoirs of a time when romance was everything and hopping into bed wasn't de rigeur. Hopefully it will make her think twice about taking up with Henry - especially for the sake of the reservoir stuff. And from her conversation with Francine, perhaps she really is done with that. Francine definitely seemed to be insinuating something - wonder if she saw anything. I was amazed Betty didn't look around before kissing Henry.
Betty was unhappy when Francine reminisced over her trip away with her husband - not inclined to share about reconnecting with Don in a similar way and wanted to be rid of her. It seems as though Francine may be fishing for info on Henry and not the trip with Don and Betty sensed it. Looks also as though she wants to divorce herself of her present life and perhaps only because she fears discovery.
Betty seems unable to be free to be who she was in Rome while at home and the romance of their getaway is stuffed down - to her the time away is just a "story of when we went to Rome." What a putdown of his sweet, romantic gesture. However, one wonders about the Colosseum as a charm. A love tryst as entertainment for the empowered? I did have to wonder why Betty was dressed in such an uncharacteristic way. "Tarted up."
Don is still feeling sentimental while Betty is back to being emotionally distant. Perhaps she is feeling he was only responding to her overt display of sexuality and is let down. Once again, I find their lack of being on the same page tragic.
While she spoke to Sally, it seemed as if a new softness might become a part of her - and now - is she also confronting both their past indiscretions and unable to look beyond them?
Pete at the end - seems to have been regretting the au pair, telling Trudy he didn't want to vacation apart again, and making cute chit chat to bring them closer together. Looks as though his emotional fulfillment is on the ascendency and Don is out in the cold - again.
Well, that's my first viewing impressions.
@Bipolarbear thank you for that very good explanation you saved me some scratch.
@wasthere yes they did it was to easy
@TakeFive: My bf, who died a few years ago, and I played the same game when we were at a NYC nightclub one night when some men were trying to pick me up. It was so much fun. This brought back great memories for me.
@TakeFive: Good point. On top of Betty's personal problems, it doesn't help that she has to wait for a trip to Rome to get her husband's attention. Literally the MINUTE they came home and got thru the door, first family problem (Carla saying there's a problem with Sally) and he walks away.
Say what you will about Betty, but Don chooses which parts of that marriage/family thing he wants to do, and which ones he doesn't. For everything Don decides he doesn't want to deal with, Betty has no choice but to deal with it. As someone said in the last thread: Don always gets to play good cop to Betty's bad cop with the kids. She's there for all the parenting. He swoops in whenever he wants, and swoops back out just as quickly. My hubby pulled that, not only would he not have a wife, he would NEVER see his kids. Not if I'm the only one doing the real parenting.
Guys, can Betty just be dissapointed in her life and not be seen as taking it out on Don? Last week he was taking his unhappiness out on her big time while she was doing all that was expected of her. Of course she has the right to know about his career plans. It directly affects her. Then he storms out and dissappears for the night returning home with a busted face.
Today Betty didn't act over the moon. And for that some of you think she's an ungrateful so and so. Really, his behaviour last week was 10 times as bad.
@bipolarbear, thanks I'll be here all week.
No, not really, but there is a two drink minimum.
@adamX6000, I concur with the out of town set design, and the Italians looked as if they were flown in.
I am not one who engages in foreshadowing like others on this forum, but, you knew there was a but coming, I guess the Yanqui Go Home line will be repeated as this series moves ahead in time. Or maybe it's just a coincidence
I was also hoping for a longer scene with Connie and Betty
Betty was drinking 'aqua minerale', the Perrier of its time in Italy. You couldn't drink the water. I thought it was weird they didn't need to get shots before going abroad. We did.
Did anyone think "The Seven Year Itch" with Pete being left alone in the hot summertime with an uncontrollable urge? And YES, he blamed Trudy, who now doesn't care about having children. "You're my husband. I want what you want." Right...
Notice how Betty made Don turn her around when he was kissing her neck, so she could fantasize about Henry.
I thought Betty's talk with Sally was really about talking to herself. Looking at the fainting couch brought him back to her.
I know I shouldn't go here but, did women wear bikini panties then? My mother didn't, and she had some very lovely lingerie.
Pete looked like a little boy throughout the episode-- eating cereal and watching kiddie shows, that knit shirt tucked in, the hangdog look, the water balloon filled with ketchup at the office... What does Trudy see in him??
Loved Bobby chanting that "sittin' in a tree" rhyme we all said constantly in those days to any kid who revealed a crush.
I think that it is pretty funny that they have Pete watching Davey and Goliath of all shows.
As I seem to recall, Davey and Goliath was nothing but a bunch of morality lessons for children --wrapped up in a cartoon/claymation format. I believe that it was put out by some consortium of Lutheran churches. Everything is placed in MM with the utmost care and precision. A nice little morality tale for Pete, dumbed down for his easy digestion?
@G: rimshot! This site NEEDS SOUND EFFECTS!
At first the coliseum charm seemed paltry compared to what may have been expected, but on second thought the sentiment of it was real to Don and that was very touching and sweet.
Darn, I wrote a bunch and then lost it all. Another stab:
Greg: You are absolutely correct about Johnny/Gianni. I had forgotten about the comment how he loved Americans.
G: Very good about Pete "minoring in rape" and I also agree with you - I savor every minute.
Hobo: Liked your comment about siblings. When my parents left the eight of us alone they just said "Dont break anything."
RE: Connie and Betty: Betty's line at the hotel to Don: "By Golly he sure is nutty!" lol
I agree with Goodstuff. The flirting scene between Don and Betty was awkward. Don is too linguistically spare to be good at flirting. He's handsome and successful but I don't see how his style ends up sweeping women off their feet so often, unless they like a guy who seems indifferent. The Italian guys may have been good-looking boors but they knew how to flirt.
Agree with Zerelda - Joan was beautiful in that dress. Loved her hairstyle and necklace, too! Her wearing of solid colors suits her so well. Has she worn any prints, ever? I do remember one outfit with plaid in the bodice but don't remember others.
And Douglas C. Neidermeyer. I did not recognize that actor. I remember in "Animal House" he drizzled spittle whenever he spoke.
@Shelby: YOu are right -- some church based group was behind D&G.
@fifty two: What do any of the MM wives see in any of those guys, when you come right down to it??
Oh my gosh, I just watched the episode again, and I don't know how I missed the obvious parallel to Betty being on a Roman Holiday...the princess gets to shirk her duties and be fancy free for a few days...even her hair and dress was utter Audrey Hepburn, although I think it was closer to Breakfast at Tiffany's attire...
I could be wrong here, but I think she is done with Henry Francis...did anyone notice the quick scene of her driving away after her kiss with Henry? She is looking at him in her rear-view mirror, a sign (I think) that she is already leaving him behind; the kiss was anti-climatic. The whole first kiss speech with Sally at the end, too symbolizes this; any further activity with Henry will just be a 'shadow' of the whole wooing dance; Henry went in for the kill way too soon. Betty's coldness with Don at the end was her realization that it was an end to the whole Roman Holiday interlude, which also included Henry.
@eygptbelle: The Italian guys were just creepy with their obvious pick-up lines. Guys like that usually get something really crude from me in return. There's nothin' worse than an over obvious pick-up line.
Got carried away with italics. Meant to italicize only the word "style". Sorry.
I felt sorry for Don - the expression on his face when Betty nearly rejected his gift. He seemed to have no clue, as if he were wondering, "I thought she'd enjoy this, but would she only respond to diamond earrings?"
And what's with Betty? "I hate this place, I hate this town, I hate our friends." Someone is ready to move on. So different from the Betty of season one. Her very curt "Good night Francine." said so much more. She is so done.
Did you notice how she looked longingly at the fainting couch?
And was Don doing his own laundry?? He carried something in the back and I think we could hear it while Betty was on the phone.
And one more thing: STILL NO AIR CONDITIONING? Does anybody else think Don is still punnishing Betty for having the salesman in "his" house?
@egyptbelle I do remember that Joan wore a black dress with large red flowers along the neckline (maybe on the skirt? don't recall) when she and Greg had his "bosses" over for dinner and drinks, the night she played the accordion.
That's Neidermeyer?? Wow! Great catch, all who did!
On a positive note, I thought the scenes with Betty and Don in Rome were out of some romantic 60's film, like Two for the Road (though it has an unhappy ending) or something with Julie Christie. Both Don and Betty looked gorgeous. Jon Hamm is so the modern day equivalent of Gregory Peck or Cary Grant. Those scenes for me were perfect and perfectly sexy. And dreamlike. Loved the sophisticated game they played.
To the poster who suggested Betty would be considered to be acting like a prostitute by sharply returning the conversation of pesky unwanted strangers: You'd prefer she sit there like a mute absorbing abuse? Really? What about Audrey Hepburn's character in Roman Holiday? I've never heard anyone say anything bad about that character. And that film was set in the 50's.
I love how Pete and Trudy can have a fight and make up without ever directly saying what they are sad and angry about.
OK, I have to re-think my "has JJ had botox in her forehead" thing. In the scene where Henry walks Betty to her car, and they talk with the car door open, as she tells him thank you, her eyebrows definitely go up, very briefly but very naturally. So I guess that flat affect thing is intentional.
Renatae:
Great point on the charm.
The Colosseum huh?
Something that was once grand... and is now in ruins.
Maddicts have at it!
@Jan001: You're right, I forgot about the beautiful dress Joan wore when she had the dinner party. Her necklace was gorgeous tonight, but hope to see her back wearing her pen soon.
@MadMenSuze - Pete's place looked so run down that I figured it was a flashback for a while!
And "snogging this dapper don" Love it!!! Also, I have the feeling Joan paid for that dress herself, if only to keep up the appearance she was in some sort of exalted position at Bonwit.
@ Shelby123 - I think "The Rise and Fall" may be the metaphor for the entire series.
@ Deep Dish - I'm sure there are guys who do the shirt thing - and as far as laughing at cartoons, I wonder if they ever get over them. What else explains the popularity of "The Simpsons?"
@greg - thanks for reminding me about the "board's secret meeting." No wonder Betty's radar was up with Francine! Your take on the cafe interaction is very informed - very interesting viewpoint! As always, your insights really make me think. It so explains Betty's letdown - fantasy colliding with reality, and what makes Betty happy is to feel she is living a fantasy.
The Colosseum - "Love Among the Ruins" oh, you've gone and done it again, Greg!
On second viewing of the final scenes, I noted Betty is still a little playful with Don in the morning of the first day back, but by the end of the day, even after her tender scene with Sally, a day with the kids brought reality crashing down, although the conversation with Francine still seems to have precipitated her sour note. She seemed downright upset that Francine had had a similar experience. Since she feels superior to Francine, it seems that Francine having great getaway diminishes her own experience to something mundane. No more feeling fantastically special.
@bipolarbear, so true about Betty feeling good about herself in Rome and ready for sex, and not so good about herself at home - especially now that poor "ordinary" Francine was wooed as well. How petty is Betty!
@NNT - I think rape by coercion is very apt. As noted upthread by others, Don at least has willing partners, and Pete's always to be in an unequal position of consent. He's now repentant with Trudy, but what about the fallout for the devastated au pair?
G, you're right - the neighbor is a tool as well - he's only worried that his peace is being disturbed. Or, perhaps it's more than that, and this is his "genteel" way of skirting the issue.
@nikita_ava - yes, Pete is light years beyond the much longer married Don when it comes to becoming aware of spousal intimacy and what it entails. If Betty didn't succeed in extinguishing his desire to please her in small ways, perhaps Don will continue to grow into his marriage. However, all marriages are indeed a series of steps forward and backward, and of allowing healing and forgiveness of trauma if they are to survive as intimate and not distant relationships.
@jan001 - your word, "disconcerting" for Betty's lack of affect - that's what I've been feeling ever since the beginning. I, too, am not sure if it is just January's way of expressing Betty's repression or just a lack of depth. It is so flat that it leaves me with the creepiest feeling.
@hobocode - no, you are not out in left field - Don did great in Rome and afterward - there just seems to be too much baggage here for Betty to overcome. Their actions of betrayal and her desire to live in LaLa Land forever seem to have thwarted the expected outcome.
"Roman Holiday" - a toast to you astute Maddicts!
Pete needn't worry; Joan is nothing if not discreet.
I think an alternate title for this episode could be "The IceQueen Returneth."
This site is slower than I've ever seen it - just won't reload, so please don't shoot me if everything I've said is totally redundant by the time it appears!
@MadMenSuze - Pete's place looked so run down that I figured it was a flashback for a while!
And "snogging this dapper don" Love it!!! Also, I have the feeling Joan paid for that dress herself, if only to keep up the appearance she was in some sort of exalted position at Bonwit.
@ Shelby123 - I think "The Rise and Fall" may be the metaphor for the entire series.
@ Deep Dish - I'm sure there are guys who do the shirt thing - and as far as laughing at cartoons, I wonder if they ever get over them. What else explains the popularity of "The Simpsons?"
@greg - thanks for reminding me about the "board's secret meeting." No wonder Betty's radar was up with Francine! Your take on the cafe interaction is very informed - very interesting viewpoint! As always, your insights really make me think. It so explains Betty's letdown - fantasy colliding with reality, and what makes Betty happy is to feel she is living a fantasy.
The Colosseum - "Love Among the Ruins" oh, you've gone and done it again, Greg!
On second viewing of the final scenes, I noted Betty is still a little playful with Don in the morning of the first day back, but by the end of the day, even after her tender scene with Sally, a day with the kids brought reality crashing down, although the conversation with Francine still seems to have precipitated her sour note. She seemed downright upset that Francine had had a similar experience. Since she feels superior to Francine, it seems that Francine having great getaway diminishes her own experience to something mundane. No more feeling fantastically special.
@bipolarbear, so true about Betty feeling good about herself in Rome and ready for sex, and not so good about herself at home - especially now that poor "ordinary" Francine was wooed as well. How petty is Betty!
@NNT - I think rape by coercion is very apt. As noted upthread by others, Don at least has willing partners, and Pete's always to be in an unequal position of consent. He's now repentant with Trudy, but what about the fallout for the devastated au pair?
G, you're right - the neighbor is a tool as well - he's only worried that his peace is being disturbed. Or, perhaps it's more than that, and this is his "genteel" way of skirting the issue.
@nikita_ava - yes, Pete is light years beyond the much longer married Don when it comes to becoming aware of spousal intimacy and what it entails. If Betty didn't succeed in extinguishing his desire to please her in small ways, perhaps Don will continue to grow into his marriage. However, all marriages are indeed a series of steps forward and backward, and of allowing healing and forgiveness of trauma if they are to survive as intimate and not distant relationships.
@jan001 - your word, "disconcerting" for Betty's lack of affect - that's what I've been feeling ever since the beginning. I, too, am not sure if it is just January's way of expressing Betty's repression or just a lack of depth. It is so flat that it leaves me with the creepiest feeling.
@hobocode - no, you are not out in left field - Don did great in Rome and afterward - there just seems to be too much baggage here for Betty to overcome. Their actions of betrayal and her desire to live in LaLa Land forever seem to have thwarted the expected outcome.
"Roman Holiday" - a toast to you astute Maddicts!
Pete needn't worry; Joan is nothing if not discreet.
I think an alternate title for this episode could be "The IceQueen Returneth."
This site is slower than I've ever seen it - just won't reload, so please don't shoot me if everything I've said is totally redundant by the time it appears!
I watched it twice and I still think I saw Roger coming down the steps in the hotel in Rome.
Check it out, center frame, right after the diesel, rubber moment.
hi
thought the dream sequence was great, but it went on a bit longer than expected, and turned out it wasn't a dream.
regards
Over 600 posts later...
I was kind of disappointed at last nights' episode.
I just don't see sparks between Betty and Don, wherever they are. Betty speaking Italian to impress who? Maybe to show Don how superior she is?
And then, when she was basking in the attention of the Italian men at the cafe, Don arrives, she doesn't say that he is her husband. He asks what they are saying, and she tells him they said he was ugly! What the hell!!
They get home, Don tries to be amorous, she rebuffs him, and him she hates where they live, hates their friends?? After she is just speaking with her "best friend" Francine.
Don goes to the trouble of finding her a gold charm for her charm bracelet, has Connie ship it over, she is obviously disappointed by the look on her face, and he sheepishly says I'll have it put on your bracelet.
I know Don is no angel, but, Betty is a cold cold fish!!
I don't like the whole story line with the Gov.'s guy either.
And all of a sudden good old faithful Carla shows up to watch the kids at the last minute.
What is wrong with Pete? Is this his MO now, get drunk and show up for sex in the middle of the night!! I hope that poor girl does not wind up pregnant. Of course, there's a story line...she carries the baby, can't go home to Germany because of the shame, Pete fesses up to Trudy, and they adopt the baby.
A few scenes were touching.
Sally and Ernie driving in the bath tub.
Joan at Bonwit Teller. Something is not right with her story....she was putting on a good show for Pete, her face and body language said it all when he left. I hope she gets back to SC soon!!
I did get a kick out of seeing the Hermes sign at the store counter (to remind us of last week)?
Oh well, enough from me...I'm going to some other threads.
@fifty-two I too thought of The Seven Year Itch with Pete being left on his own in the sweltering city while Trudy went away to the cool beach (the Hamptons no doubt).
I loved your comment about "When you have no power, delay" being exactly what Betty was doing to
Mr Francis. She let him have his one kiss then shut him down.
And as several others have mentioned, I'd love to know how Betty got that flat belly in just 2 months since giving birth, especially not breast-feeding, which really helps get rid of the baby wt.
Had to laugh at the Italian saying Don was ugly. Soooo not true. Even exhausted from travel he looked fabulous. And it was fun to see D&B being flirty and physical with each other, even if it was short lived.
I really don`t like Betty-centric episodes...
Maybe a little 'Roman Holiday', but too modern. Gregory Peck is too wooden for my taste, yet Don is so much more sinful with his cigarettes and silence.
Betty's experience alone reminds me more of Julie Christie in 'Darling', with her dizzy, immature, spontaneous adventure of uncontrollable seduction of those men.
Anybody else have trouble getting back here last night?
I thought the fire marshall may have raided the joint for overcrowding.
G. - notice the posting times - nothing between about 1 a.m. and 5 a.m. - unusual for Maddicts! Then when I was finally able to post and tried to refresh the page to see if anyone else was able to post - it posted my comments again! Of course, it was a ridiculously long post the first time!
@60's child, the Italians really did say Don was ugly and were completely unflattering - although she could have chosen to tell him the statement they made about him being an American millionaire instead. However, she did have an intimate, teasing tone.
Near the end, Don made a comment to Betty about Conrad and the account. Did he say they lost the account? Anybody?
Did anybody catch Don's comment to Betty (near the end) about the account? Did he lose the account?
@egyptbelle - Agreed. Nothing worse than an obvious come-on line that is completely vacant of any subtlety.
To all the women here who have been to Italy, Rome in particular, this is accurate though isn't it? I hate to say this but I have been to Rome several times, as a teenager on up, and the men would be so obvious and crude. I am not flattering myself here because you don't have to be a supermodel to get attention in Rome - especially when they find out you're American.
I see many people agreed with my earlier comment that the souvenir, the Colosseum (Coliseum?), signified the ruins of Don and Betty's marriage. I do think that the amorous exchange between them though was genuine because as we know from the past, Betty is very sexually attracted to Don. I don't really think it was displaced desire from Mr. Francis. But I think further that this added to her annoyance once back at home - she is angry with herself for continuing to be so attracted to Don when she knows that he treats her disrepectfully.
I think the whole thing mirrored what happened between them when they were separated and then had to go to Gene's house when he had a heart attack and they made love during the night. Her bond to Don is sexual at it's core and in both situations, Don is genuinely surprised by the flip-flop that comes later.
Hi Deep Dish!
I'll have to watch again. I base my observations on watching the episode once.
I didn't hear anything about him losing the account. I think he made some comment to Betty about them blowing Conrad off, staying in the room having sex, instead of having breakfast with him.
Are we being too hard on the people who maintain this website blog? I have nothing to compare it to, but it fills up so quickly. The page used to open up with “Season 3 Episode 8 - Open Thread” but now that is a subcategory under “Open Threads for Each Episode”. I was trying to make a comment on Friday while this was happening and it didn’t go through, so I signed out and tried again later.
Very awed by all the compassionate, cruel, and absurd psychological insights.
Joan’s purple dress ... I remember passing Bonwit Teller’s and being enticed by the white awnings with sprays of violets.
Actor Mark Metcalf, then and now:
"Respectfully submitted, Douglas C. Niedermeyer, Sergeant at Arms."
"Calm down, ladies..."
I think the deal with Betty using her Italian was not to make Don feel inferior but rather to impress him, since he treats her as an afterthought so often. She's not only lovely but educated, intelligent. She can go to Italy and not be an "ugly American" or a gape-jawed tourist with a camera. She doesn't have to accept flattery by some panting Italian lout. But she's pleased to be noticed; she knows she's in an element she only experiences on those rare forays into Manhattan for a special evening with Don. Italy let her forget she's just a housewife, albeit a more privileged than usual one, with three kids waiting at home. There she could be a princess - and as a blonde, she's even more desirable - and she speaks worthy Italian too.
Hi egyptbelle!
Douglas C. Niedermeyer...what memories of "Animal House"!! One of my favorites!
The post by eyyptbelle October 5, 2009 1:19 AM is the last post before this site went haywire. It refused to load after that. I tried leaving the site completely. The main MM site worked, but the moment I clicked "talk forum" the page went blank and it was unable to load.
I'm guessing when the West Coast Maddicts try to join us, the site is overwhelmed and locks up.
It was much fun while it lasted last night.
Hi fellow Maddicts!
Did anyone else catch at least two references to Don going to Dallas on last nights show?
November is around the corner...
Man oh man I was so happy to see the return of Don's blue sports coat from the Jet Set episode!!! I love that thing... I think I read somewhere where Janie Bryant made it... wish there was a way I could get one!
I agree with several of the other posters who indicated this episode wasn't one of their favorites. I guess you need to give credit to MW for creating so many compelling charactors and situations that when he takes an indepth look at one story-line (Don & Betty), he's bound to not give as much air time to the others.
Did anyone else think that Betty suddenly decided to accompany Don to Rome in order to remove herself from temptation (Henry Francis)? You would think that she would have been more satisfied with her trip with Don, but I suppose after enjoying herself so much in Rome, the reality of once again dealing with her mundate suburban life came crashing down on her pretty hard. I for one can be abit of a bear the first day back from vacation.
Early in the episode Pete indicated that he liked New York in August, that it was quiet and reminded him of when he was a boy. His later scene eating cereal and watching cartoons certainly backs this up. He totally reverts to someone who has to have his needs met immediately (no delayed gratification for our boy Pete).
So can we speculate what will happen next week? Kinsey and the boys sure sound worried.
Pete asked Joan not to mention the dress to Trudy. Unsaid is that he won't mention where she's working to anyone at the office, just that he ran into her at a department store and her husband was looking at psychiatry. Maybe he can go into practice with Dr. Wayne. :-)
Sally kissed Ernie, not vice versa.
60'schild -
Don made a comment to Betty before he hit the shower to order some breakfast because Connie will want a full account (of how it was presented, speed of service and taste.)
Nine months later:
"His name is Schwantz, ahem, Hans, for a wish his mother never was able to do."
Henry wants a lot more than just a passive kiss from Betty. He shows his power when the "block" on the reservoir issue may be removed at the secret board meeting. If Betty really wants it stopped, there's a price to be paid for his assistance. Her not wanting sex with Don is after she finds out the block was removed. (Hard to think about having sex with one guy when you're afraid you'll have to have sex with another.) Which is why she's bummed when she sees the charm bracelet token.
Are they not showing other intimate moments with Don and Betty, or was, before Rome, the last connection when she got pregnant?
Well, my point is...let's say they weren't having sex any other time. So, if true, then Betty likes to do it when it's almost like "forbidden." She and Don were in her home bedroom when she got pregnant and now off in seductive Rome. Is part of this thrill the "naughtiness" of it? (if my theory is correct.)
Is this what turns Betty on?
Moe, I agree that Betty's last minute decision to go to Rome was to avoid temptation.
Yep, Pete cracked me up eating cereal and watching cartoons. And how about the way he took off his shirt? Too funny! Just like a kid who doesn't want to deal with the buttons.
Why would Betty speak Italian just to impress/downplay Don or anyone? She's speaking Italian simply because she can and because she's IN ITALY. It's a sexy language and it looks like she enjoys speaking it. The Rome setting made think of Roman Holiday and also The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone (a Tennessee Williams work). Although Betty is obviously not the age of Mrs Stone - there is a desperateness about her. Loved the Pucci dress she brought back from Rome and wears in the last scenes.
Don is trying to be a good husband, I think just like the Sing Sing Guard in the hospital waiting room, they both wanted a new beginning. It is difficult to be a good husband with a wife like Betty. But then again, Im sure she has every reason to be the way she is. It was exciting to see the Drapers acting as if they were hooking up in a far away city, Betty was able to stifle her disdain for her husband and pretend she was being swept away by some handsome tourist. When they get back home its back to old Betty. Neidermeyer, DEAD! Francine needs some spanx. Pete is an idiot, and Trudy is following Betty's footsteps to becoming a very unhappy wife. I wonder if Pete will have a german baby now? (souvenier) Roger is in Jane, Don is in Denver or wherever, Ken is getting some good lines. Fat girls with hairy underarms with their feet in the founains, wow! I wonder if that was some European remark especially with a fountain. I adore Joan. Don doing laundry, a little Clorox asskiss? what is next, Bonwit Teller or Mencken thinking of starting a low budget store like Target. Funny, sure are a lot of liquor ads on MadMen. I know the feminists hate the Ketel One ad introduction, of Gentlemen. I dont know if there was one last night or not. I wonder if Betty went online and got her undies at Secretsinlace.com. I have to admit, that was HOT! Betty cant make up her mind if she wants to be Marilyn or Jackie. Bobby is one filthy kid, with an older bruiser of a sister he is headed for some issues too. Henry was this episodes Duck, I am getting some good lines to work with, I want to make you happy. Connie is going to have a big problem when he finds out all is not perfect in the Draper marriage. Exemplary huh?
"By ioplex on October 2, 2009 9:01 PM
@bluegirl I'm not looking for fast and crazy. In fact, I though the rider mower scene was a little bit of a "Who shot JR?" kind of moment. It severed no purpose of than shock value. "
Hola, ioplex,
I ain't pickin' on ya'. But when, in reference to the rider-mower scene, you said:
"It severed no purpose of than shock value."
You put a smile on my cheeks . . . on ALL my cheeks.
Thank you for that!
TwoFourFixate
Maybe I have fallen so far under the series’ spell I see dark sides everywhere, but I have a feeling that the neighbor was the nanny boyfriend.
I'll pose the question again: What did we learn last night that we didn't know a week ago?
Joan has a job. That's the only thing I can come up with.
I have defended the pace of the show this year. I don't expect, a la The Sopranos, for someone to get whacked every week. But I do expect some advances in the storyline. Almost everything we saw last night -- Betty's willingness to be seduced, Pete making a drunken pass, Pete returning something to a department store, Sally's temper -- has been done before. Even the trip to Rome felt more like something attached at the last minute. We learned very little of Connie and Don's emerging relationship there.
Hey, Betty is frustrated being a stay-at-home Mom. Who knew?
There is one comparison with the Sopranos that is apt: People become so enchanted with the show that they'll accept anything as genius.
That headpiece Betty was wearing was so huge and stiff. How much of it was her hair? I can imagine it coming apart during the lovemaking.
It pisses me off that neither Betty nor Henry Francis really cares about the reservoir.
KBF we also saw advances in the Henry/Betty storyline and more evidence that Hilton is becoming a nightmare client.
I'm with ioplex and his comment. What has happened to our show?! This season has been a total letdown. Re-watch season one and you'll really see how downhill everything has gone.
Regarding Betty: OK girls, put yourself in her place.
You're a model. You're beautiful. You get swept off your feet by this smooth talkin', gorgeous guy and wind up preggers. Only one option. You HAVE to marry him. So, you settle in and make the best of it while he climbs the corporate ladder. Now, 8 yrs later, after telling yourself its only your imagination over and over, you find yourself in a shrinks office unable to articulate what's wrong. You spend session after session blabbing about petty things. Then your best friend/neighbor presents you with irrefutable proof that her husband is cheating on her. Unwilling to face it, you take the phone bill, but don't open it right away. Then, you finally do, only to find that your husband is consistently calling your shrink. That NOTHING you've said to the shrink, at this point the ONLY person you can talk to, is private. So, you face it. Head on. You tell the shrink hubby is cheating in a session (just to see if Hubby gets the message that you KNOW) You do what Francine didn't do. You have the courage to kick the SOB out! You stand your ground. You demonstrate that you won't put up with that. Only, again, you have no choice. You're pregnant again.
Now, with yet another baby, the marriage is slowly improving. You still never know when he'll be home. He doesn't really talk to you about what's going on in his life. He treats you like an ornament, a prize, or a servant. You're there strictly to service him, his needs and his kids. Your grief over the death of your parent (first Mom, now Dad) is something you're expected not to talk about. Your deepest feelings and anxieties are just one more thing he doesn't want to deal with. And he doesn't. There may be physical intimacy, but never emotional intimacy.
And, lest we forget, Betty made the last minute decision to go to Rome to avoid any temptation with Henry. She did it specifically so that she wouldn't cheat on Don.
You, on a whim, decide to accompany him for business trip to Rome. While there, you re-capture your original infatuation/attraction to your husband. It's magical. Then you go home.
Your best friend/neighbor makes light of this rekindling. She knows her husband cheats on her and has just let it go. No big move. No kicking him out. You're in the middle of trying to save a marriage (or make the best of it) and something wonderful has happened. And, your best friend both implies you should take up with Henry, and that you have spilled every intimate detail of your getaway with your husband. Now, the entire experience has been cheapened, ruined. You take it out on Don.
C'mon girls. There isn't a woman in this forum, who in 2009 wouldn't have divorced that SOB years ago, taken the house, the kids, and every dime a good lawyer could squeeze out of him. Not Betty. She's stuck. So, call her shallow. Call her petty. Me? I call her pissed off and deservedly so.
What's that saying? "A woman scorned....."
I think that Don and Betty set that little restaurant encounter up ahead of time. I've done the same thing. Kind of fun.
Joan's job at Bonwitt-Teller is not really a step down from her job at SC. She is the manager of the dress department, maybe more. The interesting question is how did she get that job? In an earlier episode, she gave someone the name of an employee there, "who would take care of them". I think the mystery of Joan's past is somehow steeped in that store. Maybe she was a fashion model in France. She must be connected to someone at a high level.
@Brigid: Absolutely agree. What we're seeing now compared to Season One are night and day. Just look at the very first episode. It is truly amazing!
@Bipolar - 10:53am
Amen, Sister!!!
I thought that Betty was turned off by Henry Francis's too forward attitude, and was already writing him off as she took a last look at him in her rear view mirror. She knows from what that Jr. League woman said that he has a reputation and that he is probably just looking to get a leg over. But he was basically asking for payment. Like Pete did from the au pair. Although Pete demanded it. I thought that was why she chose to go with Don to Rome. She was looking for sex in her own backyard again.
As for the Italians (one of whom I recognize as an English actor - the one with the big nose) they called Don ugly in the spirit of competition. They were trash talking, only in Italian, so it sounds nicer.
@liquor: Ah, c'mon: "Bobby is one filthy kid, with an older bruiser of a sister he is headed for some issues too."
That scene with Sally playing car with the neighbor boy, imitating her parents and kissing him is SOOOO normal. As was Bobby's reaction singing that old rhyme. That was/is typical child behavior. Even Sally's beat down after. Completely normal sibling stuff.
OK ladies, help me out here.
When Conrad Hilton approached Don and Betty at the bar/cafe in Rome and met Betty for the first time, was it appropriate/normal that she remain seated and extend her hand out for him to kiss? I would think that Betty could stand up and be respectful to a man of CH's stature and be honored to meet him rather than an expectant, conceited &$%#. Was this how beautiful women like Betty behaved in the 60's? Or are we supposed to attribute that obnoxious gesture to Betty feeling extremely empowered all of a sudden?
Poor Don, her just can't get a break. No matter what he does, its never good enough for Betty. I just hopped off the fence on to the "I Hate Betty" side.
@Bipolar: I agree. She's pissed off. She can't count on Don. One day he's there, the next day he's off having a tantrum because she wants to talk about his work situation. Something she has a right to know about. He keeps her in suspense. To paraphrase Don: She wants him, but she can't have him.
Was Betty pregnant when they got married? I must have missed that part.
@bipolarbear. It's interesting that you say Betty went to Rome to avoid having a affair with Henry. I think she did have the affair -- in her mind -- with Don serving as Henry. It's why she was so ticked with Don when she got back home. The fantasy was over. Now...fantasy affairs are not the same as the real thing, I grant you, otherwise we'd all be guilty.
I also think you might be taking it too easy on Bets. Yeah, her husband's a cad, but she's still responsible for her own behavior. And so far she hasn't seemed to be any more moral than he is.
I have finally had a chance to absorb this episode.(and go through all of the posts.. I will comment on Hobo, NNT, Bipolar and Sugar Bears,Racy, Greg, Zabadu, Renatae, KBF, et al in another post, but have to get this out!)
I thought this entire episode alternated between dream and nightmare. (Very Lynchian.. which we all know MW has in him.)
Also, we all have had those times when we are out of our elements of time, space, familiarity that we either have a great time with or (quietly) implode.
Dream: Betty emerging victorious and kissing Henry, being in Rome with Don, the object of everyone’s affection. Nightmare: Back home where people put her in compartments that may or may fit. (Think Francine’s innuendo, Carla’s exposition on Sally’s behavior, Don ignoring it, etc.)
Still, can we lose Betty being one of the show’s foci for at least a week or two…ora basta!
Nightmare: Did that whole scene at Bonwit’s seem like a nightmare to anyone besides me? Did anyone notice how Joan’s eye make up was black, no luminosity
in her skin …the accent of the sales clerk,(thick, harsh) The absolute weirdness of the floor space…Just like the shading, pace, discomfort one experiences with a nightmare. The total weirdness of her even encountering Pete of all people!
Just when you think that Pete becomes a human being, he goes back to being sociopathic. He is not in love with his wife, is himself a child, and puts on the mantle of being an adult, much like the one Betty dons, but it doesn’t fit.
Don is just meat for the lions in this episode, getting tossed around and chomped on alternately by his wife and Connie. He has no clue as to why neither of them can maintain any evenness of character, and feels the brunt of their moodiness and capriciousness.
I actually think that the writers et al in this episode got a hold of some of the weed from three episodes ago and put us all in a holding pattern; much like the month of August is and must have been back in 1963.
@Sugar Bear: Ladies remain seated. Men stand. If a woman excuses herself to the powder room, the men stand until she leaves and then seat themselves. Chivalry. You know. (maybe not) Men are supposed to open the door for you, walk next to you street side to protect you, treat you with respect.
I'll let you in on a secret. If you marry the right guy you get it all...the chivalry, the ego that allows you to work or stay home (whatever you want), the emotional intimacy, the physical intimacy, and a really good Dad for your kids. Sorry, he's taken. I have him.
@Deep Dish: this is what’s the most maddening part of all: no, there is no AC and it’s high summer and all the windows are closed. What’s up with that?
The souvenirs.
The best one: Betty telling Don what Henry Francis told her: "If you don't have the power, use time, or stall"? I saw that Don thought this was brilliant.
Betty's souvenir is the Lincoln.
Don and Betty's is Rome.
Betty gave Sally pieces of girl/mom advice. I loved the lipstick scene.
January was breathtaking in Rome. She was so sexy and playful, with Don, and the two "gentlemen." She HAD Don, again, right then, but then she came home.
Pete, Don juxtaposition.
It seemed like Pete was trying to be a Don, but doing everything wrong. Even his apt looked shabby, and cheap. He was so sleezy. He keeps peeing all over every place he eats and works. That is so not Don. And Trudy buys into his pity? Ew!
More Francine! She's dead on "House". I missed her.
____
betty's really annoying me , guess i'm not alone.
DEEPDISH i have taken my shirt off that way pete did. only when i'm being very lazy. i think the reason i don't do it more often is because i do my own wash and it's a pain to unbutton later. not prob for pete
NNT: It was subtle, a few episodes back when Don & Betty had dinner with Pryce and his wife. The wife asks how long they've been together. Don says 10 yrs, Betty says 9. Don is referring to when they started dating , Betty is referring to when they got married. Either way, Sally is 10, they've been married 9 years.
More on Bonwit-Teller. Why did they choose a store that is no longer in business? Can't get anyone to pay for that. Maybe Hermes didn't want to be overshadowed. Or maybe the ultimate Joan storline is something that an on-going operation wanted no part of.
@bipolarbear: Thanks for the clarification. I think I sometimes fall into the trap of applying my generational mores to this show...of course not fair to the characters.
I do have the chivalry, the emotional intimacy, the physical intimacy and the ego that allows me to work. No kids by choice. He opens my doors, pulls out my chairs, walks on the outside of the street and protects me from large spiders. Wouldn't trade him for the world.
I'm reserving judgment until the end of the season. We could have seen groundwork being prepared last night for something important or shocking down the road.
Betty never addressed Sally's violent temper. All she wanted to do was talk about kissing. Didn't mention the pounding of Bobby, didn't tell Don about it. Not good.
Don is working his heinie off, and Betty only complains about how he's never there, how she was stuck at home during August, how she hates their life. To the moon, Alice! She deserves to be cheated on. I was a stay-at-home mom, and I just don't get her attitude. So many women would kill to be home with their two month-old babies, but that's the time when so many have to return to work after giving birth. Ye gods, why didn't Don just leave her in Rome to the jackals in the square? She has a whore fixation, that girl.
Good call, Liquor regarding Betty's Marilyn/Jackie confusion. She was wearing a beautiful pink Jackie suit for her homecoming, but I was disappointed that the pillbox hat was missing.
"Well, I see you got a new boyfriend
You know, I never seen him before
Well, I saw him
Makin' love to you
You forgot to close the garage door
You might think he loves you for your money
But I know what he really loves you for
It's your brand new leopard-skin pill-box hat."
(B. Dylan)
Bobby is filthy because little boys play in mud, wipe their hands on their shirts, and don't wash unless forced to. I loved the way he zoomed the monstrous plane over the food, standing on the chair. So typical!
@Sugar Bear: It's a myth there are no good men out there. The trick is having the patience to wait until you find him. Good for you!!!!
@SugarBear: Bipolarbear is correct. The only time Betty should have stood is for a very elderly man or woman. She was correct in remaining seated. How times have changed.
I think Don is really, really trying, but that Betty is so woefully unhappy with her current life that nothing other than leaving her in Rome to continue her fantasy life will satisfy her.
I don't think we've seen the last of Henry.
@I love Joan - because Bonwit Teller is a period piece that brings us back to that era? By the way it was torn down and replaced by the Trump Tower (57th & 5th Ave).
I loved this episode! Betty was adorable in her sexy Roman outfit/hairdo. Don really liked being the "winner" in the contest for Betty with the 2 Italians. I thought it was cute that he sat at another table first and asked if he could join her. He was seeing her through their eyes. Betty showed her class and education in Rome. Don's thin veneer of polish and his lack of education are more visible in Europe.
I love to see D & B being sexual and romantic with each other. He usually keeps her at arm's length because he knows she wants him. Don loves to withhold; he keeps the power.
It's tough to return to a house full of kids and problems after you've had a taste of your younger, freer self. I know it has made me a little cranky from time to time. You have a romantic getaway and then reality crashes back down on you. The beauty of Europe or Vegas for that matter, is that you can be anyone you want to be, no rules apply. I thought that Don's gift was thoughtful, but come on, a charm for a bracelet? He's a very wealthy guy. How about a diamond necklace. He can afford it. After all, he was willing to give Midge his entire bonus check. Betty is a valuable asset to a man in Don's circle. He ought to try a little harder to keep her.
I wanted to cry when I saw Joan. She was as wonderful as ever.
@fifty-two: I hear ya. She's not as supportive of his hard work as she could be. I can't help but wonder, if he confided in her about work if that wouldn't change. All she knows is that he's gone all the time. She's never given an explanation as to why, probably because most of the time, (until this season) there was no work reason for his absence. As we saw last week, if she asks about work, he storms out. She couldn't tell if he was gone for a night, a week, a month? The only thing a person can do when trying to determine what another person will do is base it on their previous behavior. She sure took it in stride when Hilton called the house and Don was to suddenly be gone for a couple days to Rome. Let's face it, they got married for all the wrong reasons, and it shows.
And, lest we forget, these days women would kill to be home with their infant, but then, there really was no other choice, especially with someone in the socioeconomic position of Betty.
I loved this episode.
I adored Don and Betty on their trip to Rome.
I loved Betty speaking Italian...Must remember this is a woman who went too University(probably studied at least one year of a language of some kind) then also modeled in Europe for a few years and probably picked up the Italian language by living, working there. , Don was not suprised she spoke it so well, I wonder if they went to some part of Europe together during the last part of her modeling days or maybe for their honeymoon?
I loved the Rome scenes, Betty's clothing, th