I can't believe I'm first! No comment yet, just glad to be here. Let's be nice, civil, enjoy and appreciate how much we learn about MM, especially when we get to hear another's take, another's spin. Lot's of room for everybody. Can't wait until Sunday. Love to all Maddicts.
Okay, so let's look forward and consider; 1) When Betty and William go to Gene's house will Gloria have already "acquired" many of the artifacts/possessions/objects that Betty and William covet and associate with their parents? 2) Will Roger and Don's friction at the Derby develop into a greater discord due to personal differences (recall Roger hitting on Betty following dinner) and professional differences (Peggy rising and Roger's disconnect with society). 3) Will Betty lose the baby? 4) When will Don fall back off the marital monogamy and spice up season 3? 5) When will Betty divulge to Don about her extramarital affair at the end of season 2 (probably after #4)? 6) How will Kitty's terror over Sal's "performance" in preparation for directing the diet pepsi commercial play out? 7) What will Joan do now that her facade has been exposed, and can we 8) please see Joan play the accordion again, or at least have a night out on the town and perhaps do some open night singing again. Love Joan love her lover her, love her.
"Long time fan,first time poster". Just re-watched episode four and noticed two things (sorry if someone has already mentioned these).
When Peggy looks through the window of the bar, she sees a guy playfully take a bite from his date's burger, then mimics the flirtation with her 'pick-up'. After, of course she cops Joan's line about the crowded subway.
The other thing was the date of Roger's daughter's wedding (why didn't I pick-up on that!). The day after JFK assassination. I thought MW didn't want to touch on the drama of this? We'll see...
Hi G, I read a lot of this stuff and never heard anyone ever mention the other guy biting the burger. Very good catch! Keep on posting, looks like you have a good eye.
When Peggy took her ad 'looking for a room mate' off the board, Joan mentioned something about Henrik Ibsen. Henrik Ibsen was a norwegian playwriter introducing feminist dramas.Wonder is she had any specific play in mind.1959 the play "the Doll's house was introduced in America.
Ciao
Re: E 305 Tag line: "Betty has a strange dream."
Wonder if it goes anything like this...
"Mad Men in 60 Seconds" ("The celebrated series is broken down to one minute." - youtube video, with nearly 50,000 views, posted 9.7.09, by LandlineTV) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X654tkCvoQ
Like Bacchus, I'm feeling that Don has lost patience with Roger and the fray is showing markedly.. Roger's inability to romance the Madison Sq developer was only the begining... Roger can't focus on the business and rambles on about his personal life...Don, who compartmentalizes better than anybody, has little interest in the self inflicted Sterling Saga. I doubt that Don will tolerate much more ... It will be interesting to see if Cooper is brought in to still the waters or Don will make a move on his own to bring Roger around or drop him like a stone...Roger has always wanted to build a buddy relationship, he needs a friend now more than ever but he'd do better to get a dog...Maybe Chauncy reappears??.
Nice Norwegian connection by the mention of the Ibsen plays Allegra! I don't think that Joan was referencing any particular play but only the overall theme of his work, unfulfilled women trapped in a life that seems to show bright promise if you don't dig any deeper than the surface... Seems to me that Joan is projecting her own worries.
Peggy's life looks like s it's moving along about like she planned... Joan's, not so much...
Will we see Joan take some corrective action? If there is more turmoil and tension w/ their British partners, maybe MoneyPenny gets the boot? It will be the perfect wedge Joan can apply and bring her considerable skills and talent to bear , thus sav ing her from a banishment to the Siberia of the subburbs...
Joan, who sees all, recognizes that Peggy is making inroads and hasn't needed a sultry kitten voice or voluptious curves to accomplish same. Now that Joan is mid 30's and newly married, she is protected from the ' just past prime' in Madison Ave shelf life for women who need men's attention for validation.. Joan will use this new info to begin to assert herself as an accomplished woman who has great talent to offer, all the while huming to herself "I Enjoy Being a Girl"
Allegra-- you struck a nerve with your Ibsen speculation. I'm convinced that Matt Weiner is basing Don's story on Ibsen's Peer Gynt, which deals with a hero who is desperate to hold onto his identity in the face of opposition and is goaded by guilt over his mother. The play is based on Norse mythology. Don't forget, Betty says "my people are Norse".
This season is definitely moving slower in both pace and ‘time’ (ie; we’re 5 episodes in and it’s still spring, 1963). I’d prefer a faster pace, but I think they’re building up the tension/conflict in the story lines that’ll explode when we reach the Kennedy assassination.
Having said that, here are some scenes I’d love to see:
Flash-back of Don & Roger’s first meeting (Don was selling cars and Roger bought a lemon, came back angry and Don drinks him under the table in a local bar. Roger: “You can sell & drink ?!?– You’re hired!”)
Roger’s father and Bert Cooper when the company was first starting out (and Bert’s sister babysitting little Roger Sterling)
Jimmy Barrett getting busted (for drugs/drunk driving/hookers) and needing Don’s help
Betty Draper discovering who Don really is and having a complete meltdown - and getting out the shot-gun and shooting more birds (or perhaps something more threatening?)
A drunken Sal waking up in Kurt’s (the gay blonde Russian’s) apartment
Joan fighting off Dr. Creepy’s violent advances – I’d love to see her smack him
The Brits realizing they’ve made a big mistake in buying SC – and now they want their money back
Sally getting sent off to boarding school once the new baby (girl) arrives
Little Bobby loves the Beatles (before they arrive) and tells Don
Don bumps into a drunken, broken, bitter Duck in a bar
Peggy’s new roommate: Sal, recently tossed to the curb by Kitty
Roger’s new boss: A Brit-twit who doesn’t drink, smoke or chase women – and doesn’t like men who do.
Joan’s new boss: Peggy, who, with Joan’s helps, turns Peggy into a female version of Don
Ken Cosgrove getting hit on by a gay man (no, not Sal) and reacting badly
SC new big client: The ‘Military-Industrial Complex’ – “We’ll sell the war in Viet Nam like Soap Flakes”
I wonder if the title of this episode "The Fog" has anything to do with Betty's strange dream? If not, any guesses if her dream will foreshadow something or give her a clue about Don's strange past?
By MadGrad65 on September 12, 2009 9:15 PM
I wonder if the title of this episode "The Fog" has anything to do with Betty's strange dream?
Kind of a stretch...but Scarlett O'Hara was plagued with nightmares of fog and her daddy called her Scarlett as if it was something he had called her before....
Wow, Oz-- for a summary, that's a lotta Norse! I think if Weiner's using that story as a rough metaphor for Don's life it's the Cliff Notes version. Fun read-- thanks for the link!
@Lily Oei: I tried to e-mail you, but could not. Can you block the "Liquor" poster from posting at all? I consider his blog name a form of sexual harrassment! Many viewers have expressed that they are offended by his 12 year old name choice, & have asked him to change his name, but they've been ignored. I (& others ) are forced to just ignore him. You have access to his e-mail address. Can't you PLEASE stop him NOW!?!
@Everyone: You can post which MM character will appear first in the opening scene on both S3E5's Open Thread, & STEPHANIEJo has started a thread just for that purpose-to vote for which character opens the first scene. Don't forget to vote!
@ALL OPEN THREAD POSTERS: I have managed to create 2 new threads. PLEASE visit them: The first thread is for any President Kennedy Assassination memories, especially 1956 & 1957 (people born in these two years.) I'm interested in anyone's story, even if they aren't a MM fan, or a poster.
The second thread is to post for "guilty pleasures" (now known as "GPs") & the 4 movies you would choose to present & discuss w/ an audience, the way they do on TCM. You can guess at what GPs & 4 films that MM characters might choose for themselves, but I'm interested in your 4 choices, as well. Remember, I'm not asking you to choose your 4 FAVORITE movies, or what you think are the 4 GREATEST films, just 4 you would present & discuss in front of, or with an audience. Some people don't understand the questions, & just begin rattling-off all their favorite films. This is the reason that there is only 4 choices, & in particular, why would you (or a MM character) choose these 4, & why are these tv shows or films, your GPs?
My guess for who will appear first in episode 5 is Don. OmarsMom chooses Peggy's new roomate. We also voted on the special thread: Which MM Character Appears First In The Upcoming Episode.." or something like that (thank-you, STEPHANIEJo!)
TO THE MALE POSTERS: When the drug dealer was trying to make a pass at Peggy, on the third pick-up line remark, the creative team guy said, "Give it a rest, will ya?" Okay men, come through here for me (& all us interested female MM posters): Was the creative team guy, 1. Just sick of the drug dealer talking? Or, 2. Was he trying to tell the drug dealer that Peggy wasn't interested? Or, 3. Did he say that because he likes Peggy for himself? Any answers, you Mad MEN posters?
@nan: Definition of Peggy: "Stealth sheeathed in School Girl Plaid". Great. What a talent. I hope Elizabeth Moss uses that line of yoyr in her acceptance speech, next Sunday, at the Emmys!
Wait, won't the Emmys be on at the same time as MM? Which to record. Oh he;;, I'll record the Emmys. Someone here on The Open thread for Episode 6 will surely post as soon as MM. or Elizabeth Moss, Guy playing Roger (can't think of his name)or Jon Hamm wins.
@Deep Dish: Congrats for getting here to The Open Thread first, but why waste it when you could have posted your guess on which MM character will open the first scene?
@G: Do you have a pistol? Please point it at me b4 you pull a George Sanders.
@G: Also go into the Topics available on blogs for mine on kennedy Assassination memories.
@Deep Dish: Were you just being kind to G, or didn't you read the end of the Open Thread for Episode 4, where Peggy mimicking the hamburger biting scene, was thoroughly discussed? I'm not even going to ask you why you skipped over her mention of the wedding invitation date.
@nana benz: "Roger couldn't focus away from his personal life", & "Don compartmentalizes better than anybody." I know its early, but if you don't win the AMC prize this week, for what you just posted, I'll eat my MM Times-Square-acquired-&-logo-embossed fedora.
@HardMarker: Oooooo..I like the Sal ends-up in Kurt's bed after a drunken night! But, would Sal remember any of it? Aren't we all dying for Sal to experience the one thing he always wanted to/needs to?
Also, I would add that Betty enters into Primal Screen Therapy.
'Night MMaddicts! Since it's 4:11 AM here on the East Coast, I';ll catch you all later this evevning. Remember, I'm 2 for 2. I've correctly guessed which 2 MM characters were there to open the last 2 episodes. I say Don opens episode 5. My guess is the favorite!
Pregnancy dreams can be very strange and according to some, are anxieties related to the baby coming realizing themselves. Mine were insane but didn't mean anything really. Betty may find some way to deal with her anxieties and problems through her dreams. I feel that Don is Don, no matter what anybody may bring up in the future.
Roger and Don may have some disagreements about the new management, but since Roger is SO engrossed in his life, he won't see the reality of the situation.
Betty's water will break either at the beginning or very end of the episode. The baby (not sure of gender, but I'm thinking boy), will be tiny and premature. Sally will go off to private school, Bobby will have the classic middle child syndrome and start acting out due to lack of attention, this is where Betty's attention will be now for at least a couple of episodes, baby in hospital and kids going wild. Don will step out again, but this time experience a world of guilt which keeps him drunk for a while.
Peggy will start wearing pencil skirts looking very fetching in her new wardrobe, heck, she may even attempt to wear trousers to work. Joan will help her think like a man, yet act like a woman.
Sal will accidentally out himself. Not sure how yet, but will be interesting to see how that happens.
Joan will find out she's pregnant.
I know this seems like a lot for one episode, but then again this is Mad Men ;).
I wd love to see Don first but I suspect that we shall be afforded a glimpse of Jane and Roger, chez Cooper!?
FIFTY-TWO: Great Ibsen/Peer Gynt call. I WAS PEGGY: YES The Peer Gynt Suite! When Don went to visit Anna after the hedonistic- Jet Setter's- lost weekend, the boy piano student was (painfully- very harsh and staccato-esque) playing a piece from it. And that is why our genius MW titled the episode "The Mountain King"!?
ALLEGRA & NANA B : Apropos-MW must be a huge Ibsen FAN since many of his women characters do seem trapped in an existential cage of their own construction. MANTASTIC citing!
I too wonder what "The Fog" alludes to : Denial, Confusion, Dreams, Bad Weather, Being Lost, "The London Fog" Account Revisited, Actually Being in Londontowne, Poor Eyesight, Having a Headcold (proto- influenza porcina), Being Drunk, Lost at Sea, Up in an Airplane amidst Clouds,
Not being able to Communicate, Comatose, Delusional???
RACY- I agree that the monty-like poster's username is distasteful. I was teling Dr.K. about the scenario since I had been reprimanded too (for other reasons). He told me that during Prohibition that phrase was slang for a Speakeasy. I was a barmaid and was not aware of this!? Unfortunate choice. BOO-HISS!
Just came across this article about the real Don Draper, yes, the REAL Don Draper, the legendary Chicago ad man that MW admits was the inspiration for DD. I think you'll enjoy it.
Laundry is not new, your mother, her mother, her grandmot sorry I don't know why but I keep repeating this phrase I think I am going insane. where did I leave Dr, Waynes phone#
Did anyone notice the desks in Sally's classroom. Pretty modern looking for 63. we were still using old wooden desks with a built in inkwell receptacle.Much better your initials inside a heart along with that months girlfriends iitials,
Other than the name Draper, not sure how much MW "based" Don Draper on Draper Daniels. Where did MW say this? Between Michigan Ave and Madison Ave, between The Marlboro Man and Lemon, there's a world of difference. Don Draper and Sterling Coop are solidly Madison Ave. But Myra Daniels wrote a sweet story, worth the read.
A lot of people claim fathership to the Marlboro Man, Tony The Tiger -- all the Burnett critters. It's conceivable. At Burnett, they worked in big teams and committees. When I was there in 1985, Frosted Flakes was in our group. I was told that an art director (named Don), who was retiring at the time, came up with Tony The Tiger.
Hi Oz, I copied this from the article. True, the author does not cite when/where MW "acknowledged" this. But with his name being Draper, too, I found it believable.
...Matthew Weiner, the producer of the television show Mad Men (and previously producer and writer for The Sopranos), acknowledged that he based his protagonist Don Draper in part on Draper Daniels, whom he called “one of the great copy guys.” Weiner’s show, which takes place at the fictional Sterling Cooper ad agency on Madison Avenue, draws from the golden age of American advertising.
Tac, @ fifty-two. The sequence of "the Hall of the Mountain king" in the play "Peer Gynth" is when Peer sneaks into the Mountain King's castle. Speaking of Don....he was sneaking into Anna's 'castle.You all enjoy tonite, I live on a different continent.
@Deep Dish: It's from an interview with Mike Reynolds (Multichannel News, 7/18/2007):
MCN: Did you go back to some of the icons of the era? Are some of the characters composites of the big names from Madison Avenue’s past?
MW: It depends on what you think are icons. When you read the history of advertising, there's David Ogilvy, there's Bill Bernbach, George Lois and so forth. Ogilvy is the only person who worked in anything like a place like ours, and I did read his book. Who I really modeled it on -- when I read these histories about agencies in the ‘50s -- were these super White agencies. I guess McCann was like that, BBDO was like that. There were some characters at these places … There was a guy named Draper Daniels, who was considered one of the great copy guys ever, and that's where I got that name [series protagonist and resident creative genius at Sterling Cooper], John Draper.
@Deep Dish: I cut and pasted, that's how it appeared. Typo Bad on the publication.
There should be a separate thread on the differences between Madison vs. Michigan Ave advertising. Those were two different worlds. They finally came together when Doyle Dane Bernbach merged with Needham, Harper & Steers in the late 80's. I remember thinking wow, Keith Reinhard is now Helmut Krone's boss. Guess you had to be there, but for a lot of us, that was suddenly Twilight Zone.
@racy4--re the fun scene where the younger, hipper colleague tells the 30-year-old drug pusher to "give it a rest" with his pickup lines. All three of your suppositions are true; I'd say he's roughly 60% bored, 30% telling him it's not working, and 10% marking Peggy as his own territory (if anyone's).
I'm not sure but you may have missed a little bit of an idea that stretches across the last two--protecting Peggy in general, and protecting her in particular from this stupid intrusion into her creative process--especially since the lines are utterly non-creative.
Although in large groups or insecure pairings they may egg each other on, generally men who are hitting on every woman in sight without success can bore other men as much as they can bore their targets. Good for MM giving that truth an airing.
Allegra-- I'm of the mind that the Hall of the Mountain King, which is full of trolls, I think, is the agency itself-- Sterling Cooper. Or maybe just Madison Avenue?
I was in a FOG earlier (HANG-OVER, Mental Illness, A Trance, A Concussion, Amnesiac, On Tranquilizers (Milltowns), On LSD, In Unrequited Love, On the top of Mt. Everest or Mt. Fuji, Surfing in a Hurricaine. . .)
I MEANT epi 5 opens CHEZ STERLING!
Lovelovelove the Draper Daniels-Don Darper research and paralells!
MANY THANKS!
It's All too MADDELICIOUS! We must not stray too far away from the MADMENNING Crowd!
I know this thread is about Ep 5 but I wasn't sure where to put this information...
I just finished watching the previews for a new show called Community with Chevy Chase and Allison Brie who plays Trudy on MM is in this show. I hope she will continue on MM. Has anyone else see this preview?
A foggy day in London Town
It had me low, it had me down
I viewed the morning
With alarm
The British Museum
Had lost its charm
How long I wondered
Could this thing last?
But the age of miracles
Hadn't passed
For suddenly
I saw you there
And through foggy London Town
The sun was shining
Everywhere.
@FancyNan: "Far From the MADding Crowd" - One of my all-time favorites.
@Maddicts: Speaking of bad dreams, last night I dreamed (drempt?) I was dating Ted Bundy and my family and friends were screaming at me to stop. I replied, "But he's so cute"!!! Glad I woke up from that one.
Glad to be in countdown....so ready to enjoy this weeks banquet of treats from master chef MW and his staff....foods for thoughts.
This will be immediately followed by the parsing of ingredients by lynx-eyed maddicts who will come up with new and exotic combinations...to the joy and delectation of all!
AHHH, "MADMEN-ticipation"!!! When I think of Carly Simon, I think of "ketchup" (chock-full of High Fructose Corn syrup BTW!!!). Who is doing a dis-service to whom?!
Just for killing time…the minutes are ticking by…..
Over on Mad Men’s Facebook in the photo’s are magazine ads from the 60’s. You’ll laugh your socks off and also go “huh?” when you look at them. Just wanted to share. The ads are amazing. Also some never before seen photos of Don and Betty so be forewarned if you don’t want to speculate about what they mean . Wonderful glamorous shots of the two of them, though.
@joneric: I had a difficult time reading your blog name, so I'm sorry if it's misspelled. Thank-you for answering my "Pick-up Peggy" question. Very Good.
Who mentioned that Grandapa Gene said Betty was like Scarlett O'Hara?
Fog makes me think of "Gone With the Wind". Wonder if Don will tell Roger "Frankly my peer, I don't give a damn."?
Tomorrow is another day...
Scarlett was a drinker too.
Grandapa Gene talked about how Betty's mom did not like chubby's. Betty said once that the dance costumes for Sally's class were bad for chubbys. Wonder if Sally is going to be a chubby hater?
Perhaps this is common knowledge, but I've just discovered that I can catch new episodes of MM at 7pm Pacific on the AMC HD channel (Comcast). For those who can't wait till 10, reset your DVR but please no spoilers before 11 pm Pacific.
I noticed how quickly Betty tired to deflect blame for Sally onto the other student. They wound up not even dealing with the problem even after being called into the school.
Her dream sequence was odd. What's with the worm? Did she kill it?
I don't know about the rest of you but that entire scene with Betty in the D room (and the springtime scene)reminds me of "Rosemary's Baby". Something bad is gonna happen.
The injured black guy was meant to be Medgar Evers in a dream full of dead people. The teacher told Don and Betty that Sally was wondering about Evers' murder.
"Every job has its ups and downs"... Especially when you're an elevator attendant, LOL. We are starting to get more insights from more black characters over these past several episodes. This theme is building momentum.
I won! I WON AGAIN! STEPHANIEJo! I DID IT! I'm great & all-powerful! I chose Don as opening the show, & I WON Again! I'm great at this contest, & all you other posters suck at it! YAYYYYYYYYY!
I'm the one who said it would be a boy named Eugene! Wow! I'm on a roll!
I can't wait to see how Don and Betty each comprehend the messages spoken from their respective 'prophets'.
Can Don control his butt sniffing urges toward his daughter's teacher, for crying out loud?!
Ok- I kind of like the Civil Rights movement weaving in this episode with the Medgar Evans murder (Sally asking about it, M.E in Betty's dream, and the discussion between Hollis and Pete).
Very funny Zabadu. I ain't a feared of no Forum Nazis! If they can talk about defeating Germans and Nazis on the show, then I can talk about beating them evil Forum Nazis in here.
Interesting that Don and Dennis did not openly acknowledge each other passing in the hall. Odder still that the sight of Dennis' wife seem to bother Don...
Yeah, the civl rights theme is gaining momentum all around. This is going to get good. And how stupid are those Admiral exces? According to them apparently all Black people aspire to be White. Sup wit dat?
The bloody black man with Betty's mom Ruth was Medgar Evers, who was shot to death for daring to desegrgate the University of Mississippi's law school, and who Sally was asking her teacher about.
"See what happens when people speak up?"
There were colour TV's in the US from 1954 on, but they were very expensive, as in $1,200 a pop - in 1954 dollars, yet! RCA was the main manufacturer of those sets until the early 60s, and the colour standard developed by RCA was the national standard until HDTV.
Thus endeth the history lesson.
And Peggy needs to go where she is respected. I just don't think where Duck is is that place. Why do I get the feeling that Don is going to get the sack? Or he's somehow going to leave Sterling Coo?
Pete has glimpses of decency, but his overriding attribute is personal ambition. I think he is a very unlikable character, and will be until he evolves to an a-ha moment and does something dramatically selfless.
Say what you will about Duck, the man has pretty good instincts. He totally picked up on Pete and Peggy's "special" relationship while the rest of Sterling Cooper is totally in the dark.
Did Dennis and his wife leave the hospital without a baby? I think so; so sad. That's why he didn't acknowledge Don as he was wheeling his wife out.
==
Unlike her brother, Sally had zero interest in the new baby. She was all about having Mom home, desperately seeking affection and attention. Expect more lashing out next episode. She assaulting a student and was asking her teacher about murder in this episode.
Pete is gonna go on the war path, acting on the fear he feels due to his hand-slapping by the brass. He may seriously lash out towards Peggy. ("Leak" that she's negotiating with Duck.) Then, he'll be the one to start talks with Duck - like the slimeball he is.
Have we set up an official tally, y or n to Don / teacher hook up?
@Task, to me that scene merely reminded us that Sal has secrets. What was the extra $12 for? Either we will never know or it will come out later -- and it will be delicious.
Good lord, that man can squeeze a penny until it screams. The english guy. Reminds me of someone I worked with at Jerico...made us flip adding machine tape and reuse it.
To midcenturymod: When I had my first child in 1965, everyone was breastfeeding. It was completely accepted in NYC. The nurses at the hospital expected mothers to breastfeed, encouraged and helped with it. La Leche League was going strong.
! Teacher is creepy
2. loved Don with Sally "not all surprises are bad"
3.I rememebr looking up at my mom in the hospital with my baby sister
4. We had a colour TV in 63...I loved that peacock
5.Peggy fingering the baby booties in front of don..waxing sadly or a calculated cue to him?
6. I hate Duck
7. Don wants to be a better man..I think.
What's the deal with pregnant women and pineapple -- is that a no-no?
Perhaps she was refering to the laxitive effect of the fruit..not something you want while having to push...though she did mention giving her an enima..
Thanks, 60s. Guess that was just Betty being her usual self then-can't even smile at her kids, far less breastfeed them. Though I expect NYC was ahead of the trend on that.
I felt really bad for Betty when she said "he's never where he is supposed to be " while she was under the influence...
as for the scene at the end, I think she was just tired and overwhelmed. Its her third time going through this and even though she accept her role as housewife, she's not completely happy with it.
Glad childbirth isn't the big medical deal now that it was then. It was treated like a medical intervention rather than a perfectly natural event. Needlessly unpleasant for the mother then.
Once again guys, thanks for clearing something up for me. I wondered why the other dad did not acknowledge Don in the hall and ask him about his wife and baby. Looks like something happened and they lost their baby. Very sad.
I loathe the head English dude. When he started going on about expenses, I wanted to scream! His face also makes me want to barf. And his gay little assistant is not much better – so prissy!
Could Bobby have been ignored any more in this episode! He was trying to meet the baby and they just told him to be careful and shooed him out. All these kids are just starving for attention.
Next week’s preview looks juicy.
"you're a house cat, lots of importance (or something like that) and nothing to do" = Betty's own dream of "I'm just a housewife" as spoken through Gene??
Was the silk worm / caterpillar her baby?
Drunk teacher throwing herself at Don, once again he just waits for them to land in his lap....
But I wonder if Don will be hot for teacher after Peggy capped off his reality check with "you have everything and so much of it"
If SC finds out that Peggy's been talking to Duck, they'll only try to keep her. I was surprised she didn't tell Don she'd had an offer. I'm glad Duck has resurfaced, he is a smart guy, more forward thinking than Burt, Roger and Don. Lane Pryce is also more astute than those three about the "time's are a changin". Dylan already sang that, but those boys are still clueless. Well, maybe Don has a clue.
Has anyone determined the date of this episode? Just curious because I was born in June of '63. Betty told the teacher that it had been about 2 weeks since her Dad died which could put the baby's birth date on or around 6/30...
Man..... a lot of great tidbit with Dennis in the waiting room. the parallels to Don's dad and Don's birth. Dennis to Don: "You are an honest man". the drifter carves the hobo code in the post meaning a dishonest man lives here after Don's Dad stiffs him.
I don't know whether the teacher sounded sexy but when she told Don on the phone that she was embarrassing herself, and he replied, "No, you're fine", I swear the man was almost purring.
Lots of forward movement in this episode. Betty is going to go through a metamorposis just like the caterpillar becomes the butterfly. The women's movement is coming her way. Peggy mentioned the Equal Opportunity Act. Pete is seeing black people in a more advanced way than the rest of the shop. Of course he's still Pete and therefore has a weird way of relating to ANYONE.
I hope those of you who dislike Betty felt at least a little sympathy for her childbirth ordeal. My goodness, I can't imagine, and my hat is off to those of you who did just that. I have had three children--the first one was born via natural childbirth (terrible pain), and then a set of twins via C-section (it was a horrible pregnancy, including an emergency airlift to a high risk hospital, pneumonia, and bed rest for a month) and I still think I had a better experience than Betty by having my husband there through it all. When Betty had to leave Don at the hospital, I wanted to cry for her. To endure that all on your own--terrifying.
Take One.......It is 1962 not 1963. We got our first color TV in 1963, so yes, they were around. The first color program I can remember was Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color which aired on Sunday nights.
Is it me or is this season VERY slow?? And none of the prob's/issues from season 2 are being resolved. And when already, is someone going to say something about Betty's baby maybe not being Dons????? It is driving me insane...is it dons or not?? and why hasnt don said anything if it's not his???? I'm really wishing that some things can be tied up so I can focus on the things going on this season.
I can't see Don having an affair with someone so close to home. Besides, Betty is going to go into a depression and he'll have his hands full. Roger appears to be playing games with him too...
As for the traumatic birth scene - my mothers only memory of having me was getting the sedative and saying "I can't breathe". She was intubated and I was born by cesarean. It was 1961. You should see the lovely vertical scar she has. Would make you swear off having kids.
For art direction fans, in the waiting room scene Don is half-surrounded by stripes while he's talking about jail stripes (cigarette machine, drapes, tie).
Second actor from Admiral Television scene with Pete was the second guy from the downsizing scenes in the movie "Office Space."
Go Peggy. Don says "What do you want me to say?" and she answers "I don't think I could have been any clearer." Then she sarcastically invites Pete to the lady's room with her.
She's so isolated, but so smart. You have to root for her.
FOG
Betty's coming out of it...a little more clarity and strength even if she has to muster it in the dark hallway at night!
Don's lost in his fog with honesty/father issues.
The Dennis baby vanished in the fog.
Teacher called Don from her drunken fog.
Sally foggy up in the night with her Dad.
Brits penny pinching fogging up what's important.
Peggy stuck in the pre women'-lib fog.
Admiral Clients and SC higher ups in a clueless fog.
Pete in an moneymaking/morality fog.
@Scotch&Soda Nice catch on the hobo code! Don doesn't want to be the dishonest man he is.....but those lies got him everything he has today.
The teacher would have been cast as a plain school marm if Don's character was not to be tempted by her. Pathetic how she drunk dials one of her student's parents. She probably hung up on Betty numerous times before Don came home from work, or estimated his arrival from the city with a train schedule she picked up after school.
What women went through during labor and childbirth in the sixties makes me cringe. Betty was in pain and the nurse gives her a shave and an anema. Then she gets drugged and in a twilight sleep- so she really isn't awake to know what's going on with the birth. To top it off she had to go through it all alone. She didn't even know that she had a boy! Things were really different when I had my kids in the eighties.
Ok Betty stuff later, which was great and so much to go into, but as much as Betty will probably dominate here, hopefully she will not wash out the rest of the talk, let's start with the other things of interest:
Thought it was interesting, the teacher saying to Don, Sally needs more attenion. Obviously he doesn't have the relationship with her now that he did last year. (You could also substitute any female in Don's life probably regarding her remark). But in the hospital with the other guy, he says he doesn't throw the ball around with Bobby enough. Both kids he doesn't show enough attention. Yet in a short time, Gene did with both of them. So later Don bonds over nighttime cooking with Sally. Yet Betty is unexpectedly bonding immediately with "Gene".
Don getting up and leaving the Sterling Coo meeting was interesting as well. It's exactly symbolic of what he does. Remember when he said to the Madison Square Garden guy, if you don't like the question change the subject? That's what Don does often. When he doesn't like something in life, he runs off like it's not really happening. (to Peggy: This never happened). And again he does it here, he doesn't like it, and just leaves.
It's about more than just leaving. It's that struggle he has about fighting off aspects of his own self. So far he is doing well with Betty. But here with work, he doesn't do well and reverts to leaving. Ultimatley he's both succeeding and failing in that fight against his own self.
Don answering Bridge on the River Kwai: "I've seen everything". Other than fun with lines re Peggy, it also shows he paid attention to her, unlike everyone with Patio.
How about the guard saying to Don about what if something happens to her, how could I love that child. Basically Don's story, being told right to his face. Oh man.
What I've felt has been one of the most importaing things: In the end, walking in the house with the baby, Don puts his arm around the small of Betty's back walking in. For the 3rd episode in a row, in the end of each episode, Don is giving tender affection to Betty.
I think Pete is really seeing the potiential in advertising in Ebony magazine & increase sales among the afrian-american consumer. But I also feel its more for his ambition & to make his co-head Ken look uninterested in his job.
Good for Peggy, she's aware of what's going on & taking a stand. After all, she was the one who had the balls to ask Roger for Freddie's old office.
Don was very attentive to Betty. Of course he did lie about who was on the phone. And what's the deal with Sally's teacher? Was it me or did anyone else notice her body language when she was talking to Don?
As for Betty, I see post-pardeum depression in her future mixed with a touch of hallucations.....or was it the med's talking?
That was so funny with the 11cent and 38 cent tips etc. That seems pretty cheap to me even then for some Mad Men high rollers. Though I do remember actually being able to buy something with a nickel when I was a kid.
About the Hebrides reference: Mendelssohn wrote an overture about them that became known as "Fingal's Cave," and when he visited the islands, his traveling companion noted that the islands, "brew nothing but whiskey, fog, and foul weather"
Automobile question: Was the make of car in the magazine ad that Don tore out a 1963 Pontiac? Maybe someone got a screen shot? Is our boy looking to buy a new car?
My son was born in Feb 1966 and breast feeding was not only acceptable, but encouraged. That was in Cleveland, Ohio.
What happened to the Dennis baby? That is the question!
The nurse came out previously and told the prison guard that he had a healthy baby boy. Meanwhile, Betty's having dreams of dead people and there's a bad aura all around....was it Betty's baby who died? Did the nurse give Betty the Dennis baby because they liked her better than the prison guard (he was rude to the nurse in the waiting room because they weren't giving him updates)? Two baby boys, and no indication that something was wrong with the Dennis baby...
-ChiGreg: the foxy teacher's name is Suzanne Farrell. Why was she drinking outta the same style of glassware they use at SC/PP&L? Was that semi-round "rocks" tumbler s'thing that was very prominent/popular in 1963? I was a bartender: I like to KNOW these things. Definitely some unstarted/unfinished biz betwixt Don and Maypole-teacher. MMM.
Betty's morphine "FOG" was so anti-climactic; I'd imagined s'thing much more cataclysmic and exciting!? GLAD "Eugene" Draper is healthy!!! NO BREAST MILK: was this pre-Dr. Spock?! Thank-God Betts finally deigned to go to her shrieking son at the end.
Maybe the "Fog" is what Pryce senses "as a stranger in a strange land. . .-s'thing is going on" : gestating/brewing, a climate/current of impending change ala Civil Rights, proto-Feminism, the NOW Generation, Viet Nam ETC. Hmmm.
Pete to Hollis: " a car, a house, a TV: that's the American Dream"!!!??? TRAGIC.
We do need to rethink PEGGY. Why did she fool around w/ Pete on her first day
at SC knowing he was soon to be married. . .
She may be much worldlier than we'd previously considered?! Pete says to her in epi 5:"Your decisions affect me." She gives him a look filled w/ daggers and stalks off. A lot of delish and weighty stuff coming up with those two!?
MELBA TOAST: Gal-Pal: you're the coolest! XXX. Where are you on this board tonite?! See you soon. . .!
By childof60s on September 13, 2009 11:40 PM
I can remember was Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color which aired on Sunday nights
Ohhh and tinker bell would fly in and touch the castle and it would turn color..
====
and don't forget the intro on NBC: "This NBC presenation is being brought to you in living color..." upon which you'd see the NBC peacock's tail feathers in the spectrum of colors.
@AlCat14, I have been wondering about all the potential baby switches that could have happened from that time period, especially with the drugging and non-witnessing fathers. It seemed like Betty was getting the Francis Farmer treatment in that operating room.
Zabadu....I meant to say it is 1963 not 1962. Hence me explaining how I knew color TV was around in 1963. Because as I said, we got our first color set in 1963. No need to be rude and tell me to go watch previous episodes. I have watched MM since the first show aired. Please forgive my typo, I guess we can't all be perfect.
I think the Hebrides reference is also a nod to Virginia Wolfe "To the Lighthouse." Betty straddles bits of both Mrs. Ramsay and Lily Briscoe (the matron and the unsatisfied artist), while Don is a fair Mr. Ramsay.
Even the shape of the novel "To the Lighthouse"--two intensive Hebrides trips bridged by a 10-year interlude, seems reinforced by the hospital scene, with Don and Betty enacting their separate visions divided by a long corridor.
@child of 60s: The "go back and read old threads was not addressed to you, it was addressed to MMFan. I'm sorry if it was confusing. MMFan was asking if it was Don's baby.
Baby switching? Come on guys, this isn't Dallas or All My Children.
@ta-town girl - Thank you for the Mendelssohn reference...I guess the SC boys can expect more 'fog & foul weather' ahead
@AlCat14- I don't think there was a baby switch, because Dennis was able to look at his baby in the nursery first, although it is really strange that the newborn was healthy, than apparently...not healthy...
@Greg - I completely agree, Betty did seem to bond with little Eugene, a very unexpected twist, even if she did see her deceased parents during the birth and somehow connect them all together...
Regarding breast feeding. I was born in 1962 and was breast fed, but my mom says all the other women in her ward were planning to use formula. She attributes this to a not uncommon lag in such fashions between classes. Formula feeding was definitely in during the 30s and 40s, especially among middle and upper middle class women, who a generation earlier might have had a wet nurse. So while my well educated and middle class mom was following the trend back to breast feeding in the early 1960s, the other mothers in the ward who were working class were following what they thought was the well-to-do way.
I'm amazed that everyone has overlooked the punch line of this episode which is filled with irony: "Admiral is not interested in becoming a colored television company". As a "triple B" (Black Baby Boomer) I can remember very clearly when my family got a large TV/stereo combination delivered - Nov. 23, 1963 (day after JFK assasination). It was a Black & White Admiral. That TV became our portal to the 60's. I saw both Kennedy funerals, Martin Lther King funeral, Several space flights (including apollo 11) , Johnson announcing he wouldn't run, Chicago convention, student and race riots all on that TV set.
Also there was one other racial dynamic that people overlooked. That was the elevator scene where the black operator said he owned an RCA. There were several brand names that tended to sell better in black commnities (still do). Many middle class blacks are very aware of this and go out of their way NOT to buy what they know other blacks are buying for the sake of status.and/or refusing to be pigeon-holed. That was the key to the underlying tension in the elevator conversation.
Take Five - I didn't catch that, that the teacher's name was Suzanne Farrell.The real Suzanne Farrell is a famous ballerina, danced for New York City Ballet. I'm enough of a ballet fan to remember that her real name was Roberta Sue Flicker. Like Don, she also went from a country-type name to a more, say, worldly one.
By MadMenSuze on September 14, 2009 12:12 AM
I remember the peacock, loved him. Tinkerbell and the castle too.......aaaah brings back good memories doesn't it.
Betty squashed the caterpillar. There isn’t going to be a butterfly. The look on her face was one of determination. I don’t know what that would mean in a dream but surely the caterpillar represents something. Maybe that she hates her life and wants a new one.
My first baby was born in 1966 and I was discouraged from breastfeeding 100%. She was born in Fairfield County, Connecticut.
My uncle had a color tv in the late 50's . He joked to my dad about getting to watch the Rosebowl Parade and game in color.
The ad that Don rips out of the magazine was an ad for a 1963 Pontiac Grand Prix, I was waiting for a reference to it again in the show, but they did not. The Pontiac ads from that time until about the early 70's were really nice painted ads done by an artist name Fitzpatrick.
Speaking of color productions, a very big deal was made out of "Batman" -- it aired twice a week and I think the airing shown the second time that week was in color.
I remember those fake color tvs from the sixties. People put some kind of see through sheet of plastic on the front of a black and white tv. It was some kind of diffraction grating and it would give a rainbow effect of color giving the illusion of having a color tv.
I don't think we had a color tv in our house until the early seventies. Imagine watching Batman in black in white.
Peggy stand s for all that was the Women’s Movement, Women’s Liberation, & Feminism – from the moment she took Joan’s advice & got the birth control pills.
Well, w/ Carla gone, & Gene (really gone), we finally get neighbor, Francine, again. Let’s hope she doesn’t start smoking again in the nursery.
How great a line was Betty calling for Don, & then asking the nurse, “Have you been with him?” I did a “spit take” of diet root beer all over my LR rug. Thanks to the MM writers.
And when is someone in that office going to bring-up that they have tickets to the Broadway show of “How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying”. In my opinion, Coop never has enuf to do, to say, etc.
Quack! Quack! For everyone who was looking for Duck!
@KBF &
StephanieJo: Bobby is talking!!!!!!!!!!!! (Oh no. Now they’ll have to pay that child actor more than scale.)
If Betty doesn’t want that 25 mg of Demerol, can I take it?
@wasthere: I guess Philadelphia didn’t want Duck after all.
@prl168: I’m the one who said the baby would be a boy & named Eugene Adam.
@Take5: I had the same reaction when Pete asked Hollis about having a color TV. I was like, in 1963? Even my rich friends didn’t have a color TV. Then I saw the elevator scene again, & noticed white man Pete, asking black man Hollis, questions, & asking, “Color?
@ Tatowngirl: Wow. I didn’t pick-up on Duck saying to Pete, “Don’t be a baby!” w/ both Peggy & Pete being there.
@ChiGreg: Your post was really special. I read it 3 times. Thank-you.
@TexRex: I thought that was weird, too, Dennis & Don only nodding in the hall. Dennis’ wife kinds of looks like Peggy, but I see that everyone is beginning to say the couple left w/out a baby. Changeling? Something? Anybody? Well, I’m sure the posters will have this mystery resolved by Thursday.
@SallyDraper: “Not a good time.” Yes, I agree. That does seem to be Don’s theme in life.
@bettymurielsartre: Okay, where have you been? LAURIE B. & I have been frantic/ worry, & you just show-up here to post for Episode 5? Oh, & thanks for Betty’s dream analysis. I did not pick-up that the injured man w/ Betty’s mom was Medgar Evans.
@57Chevy: A friend of mine always recites that Carl Sandburg poem about Chicago, because he says it reminds him of me. I loved reading it here. Thanks.
@DeepDish: How lovely to read a line of Emily Dickinson here. She is a very special poet for me. Thanks.
@zabadu: Thanks for making that BOLD line. I told you we need you pre-show.
@zabadu: And here’s the teacher calling the Draper home, talking to Don: “I don’t even know why I called.” (‘Except that your rear end looks great in a Brooks Brother suit.’)
@sab4ever: Okay, you were right about the baby being born in tonight’s episode, but I predicted it would be a boy, & I predicted he would be named Eugene. Also, I predicted Don would open the first scene of the episode, & I’ve been correct on that the last 3 times out! So there.
@Lucky Strike: I thought the one nurse was played by the actress that was the mom on “That 70s Show”.
@57: Great line about becoming a nurse. My niece just graduated, so Ill-use it on her.
@MadMenSuze: What parts remind you of “Rosemary’s Baby”?
@pil168: Are you the one who wrote “Nooooooo, Betty”, when she had sex w/ the guy in the storeroom?
@Scotch&Soda: Ah, I believe, as I’ve stated above, I came-up w/ the name “Eugene Adam” first.
What does it mean about Don's character as a person that he spends a lot of time going to see all the movies? I don't think we've ever seen him doing it, but even in the early 1960's that's a few hours a week. Professionally, he turns in the receipts; it's advertising research. Still, does he go alone? Does he take notes while he's there, "wasting" more SC paper and pencils...?
Cleopatra with Liz Taylor was released late July 1963 and was a huge worldwide phenomenon. A story of intrigue and infidelity, a queen who was "very important with nothing to do." A few episodes from now on MM would be great time to get some specifics on how the Drapers watch a movie (LOL).
Oh my gosh, what a great episode. I LOVE that they portrayed childbirth during that era. You always hear about women being knocked out while the men chain smoke in the waiting room. It was great to see what it was like. Makes you wonder when the women stood up for themselves and decided to do it differently.
I believe formula-feeding became big in the 50's when "science" was considered the better way to do things.
My TV is too small... I was trying to see the expression on the fave of the guy's wife in the wheelchair to figure out if she looked sad. I can't see it clearly enough.
It's so cool to see the equal rights and women's rights stuff heating up. Man, it was a white man's world back then.
Regarding Mr. and Mrs. Dennis Hobart's baby -- the nurse who appeared in the waitingroom and said she would keep Mr. Hobart updated "religiously"-- (I thought that strange terminolog). This was after she had had just told him -- after a whole day in the waiting room -- that it was a breach birth, and that a specialist had been called in. Then she got on his case about needing "his permission." She didn't explain permission for what, and never gave him any more info regarding the specialist, the dangers of a breach birth. etc. And then he got the news that his baby was doing" fine." Possibly some medical mal-practice there in not having the baby in intensive care? I also noted that she mentioned there had just been a "shift change." And one might say that critical medical information has been known to go home with the shift that's leaving.
Hey anyone. I can't remember what Don said to Peggy when she visited him in his office...Something like "Success is about standing out, not fitting in." Is that right? Theirs always so many wonderful lines that I forget them by the end...And the ritual Old Fashioned during the show seems to help in the process of forgetfulness too.
I checked with my tivo several times, and Dennis and his wife are definitely smiling when they are coming down the hall, but when Dennis sees Don the smile leaves his face and he puts his head down and snubs Don.
I think this rules out something happening to the baby, or they wouldn't be smiling at the start. Could it refer to the things that Betty was saying while in her 'fog' and how Dennis' wife could have told him. You know, nurses gossiping and all? Or it could be that as someone said earlier, Dennis had already broken his promise to Don and felt guilty. But anyway, let's please put the dead baby theory to bed!
@Take five: most likely permission for a caesarean. I still don't see how they would come out and tell him he had a healthy baby and then it would die. Full term babies born under those circumstances rarely die. Even then.
AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO IS TIRED OF EXPLAINING WHY IT'S DON BABY AND NOT THE STRANGER'S IN THE BAR?
i don't mean to be mean, i'm sure there are a lot of things i'm slow to get. BUT PREGNANT WOMEN CAN'T GET PREGNANT. i apologize if i'm being rude, i'm just getting frustrated.
do people think that scene in the bar was a flashback?
it clearly wasn't. that's not an opinion is a fact.
@miltonzdad....thank you! I agree that I think it was more Dennis playing down that he did all that talking to Don because he's supposed to be a tough prison guard. I thought they were both smiling to, on their way to the nursery.
I loved the Betty angle. I had questioned if they'd have her have the baby, not for cheesy soap opera reasons, no, but because I just thought it would tie the Betty character down. I saw her as starting to come out of her shell at the end of last season, and I didn't think the character could expand like they started with her. The late blooming of Betty is so interesting so I figured it'd stifle her character. But check this out:
Betty is loopy on drugs. Yet it seems she's confessing the truth. Remember last year she told the Doc it's a bad time. She told Francine the same thing. They did some things to make us question is she trying to undermine her own self. So here a little drugged up, some things happen. She says in labor, "I don't want to be here". Then you see Gene with the bloody mop. You think of that quick shot of Sally smearing blood on her face during the teacher telling what happened at the water fountain. You think of the very first shot to open this season.
Then what happens...
At what appears to either be the brink, or simply a drug infused nothingness, she sees Daddy. He tells her she's like a housecat, you're very important and have little to do. On the surface of course it's that Mad Men demeaning yet interesting thing. We all probably focused on the "little to do" part. But, Betty focused on the word important. For the first time since we've known her, she has been told with veracity she is in fact important.
That's what turns her around. She's finally told she's important with meaning, even if in a roundabout way. She's important. And since then, she's completely reversed and everything is not only ok, but, opposite now. Baby born ok, we're all good. Betty is important.
Now, she takes on the responsability she formerly didn't want now that she's been emotionally through one simple phrase, that finally isn't fake and finally has meaning, and she's built up. Her husband never gave her that emotional support. No man in her life ever gave her what she really needed all these years deeper than simple attention. She now feels important. Everything now ends up ok.
Ahh but just when you think it's all good think again. Did you pay attention to the very last scene, how Betty hesitates to get out of bed, sighs, slinks down the hall and just stops, her head lowers, most importantly the gloomy music starts and she sighs again before going to to mother duty....? It's not exhaustion....
I'm seeing a very Don thing in her. It's all good when you make the decision, but do you have trouble immediately after your decision? Don takes on the responsibility of being better. He's having trouble. She takes on the responsibility of being better, and seemingly is already having trouble.
So I thought the baby angle would stifle her character. But no, it's actually way opened her character up, just in a different way than you'd think.
Caught on re=view: Betty's mom's ghost saying "See what happens when people speak up? Be happy with what you have..." while standing over the murdered ghost of Medgar Evers (who was the start of people no longer being happy with what they have, and speaking up plenty). Almost ham-handed on a second viewing, but well set up.
I really think this episode reiterated the writing skills of the writers on this show. I wasn't all that impressed with the first couple of episodes, but it seems like they have introduced a ceratin 'abstract' side to the show, with Betty's hallucinations and such. You really are allowed the interpretation of the scene when it's left open to the audience. I absolutely loved the scene where Betty is floating through suburbia and encloses her hand on the silk worm. Beautiful.
@jlh, it's ok, chill. There could be some first time posters to the site. I'm only a newcomer since Friday night (don't laugh, my plans fell through...) Anyway, I didn't bother reading the thousands of previous posts, because it can get tedious, so my first comment was swiftly criticized for lack of 'research'.
I also noticed that most of you seem to be Baby Boomers with a lot in common (me, 1967 = genX screw up). Just let it go...
G, I think your opinions are just as good as many of us. I have predicted so many wrong things that I just shrugg it off and carry on. And...what if you are right?
@joneiric: Well stated about the Medgar Evers scene! I think that the same irony applies to Don's discussion with Peggy about her salary--isn't he telling her essentially to be happy with what she has, and isn't that what the women's movement set about taking to task?
my mom had me in 1955, breastfed me and was considered strange....most women she knew in the hospital and outside did not breastfeed
very interesting episode.....thought that Peggy would tell Don about Duck's advances
Well I can't stay up all night. But every time I go off and come back there are 20 or 30 more posts to read. It's so great to see that so many more people have shown up and signed in! All of this is so exciting to read . All of you have a great night!
HUGS
The color TV we had in 1963 was a regular color TV. No see through sheet of plastic put over the screen of a black and white TV......WHAT?! It was a Zentih and lasted for many many years. I have never heard of what you are talking about.
@Greg Don is doing well on the home front...after he put his hand on Betty's back she even kissed Sally on the head!
But how will Don resolve his "work tantrums"? The Brits aren't giving him the leeway he's used to...
Betty in the hall not exhaustion? I have to say from my experience that it very easily could be. Especially after that horrific 60's labor!
@mmbhm Agreed, that perhaps Betty hesitated because her father was in that room just a week or so ago.
Hollis and Peggy reached out so clearly but no one listened closely enough ..
@fannan yes the "climate/current of change" or "fog of the future" is rolling in! It's so close we can taste it!!
@frankmar14 fascinating insight on the TV sets and the things you experienced while watching your TV.
@G You and I may be the only Gen-Xers on the board, so please please please stick around!
Love the relationship between Don and Peggy, and the fact that there's nothing sexual about it is refreshing. They can be real with each other because they know each other's junk, and because of that we are afforded insight in to both characters.
How about Hollis' line "All jobs have their ups and downs". There's the obvious elevator reference but then the inferred one: people like Pete are one of the "downs" of Hollis' job. At the same time, I think there are some decent underpinnings to Pete and his racial views. He was obviously turned off by Roger's serenade at the country club, and today when the Admiral guy asked if integrating the ad was illegal (LOL) Pete gave him an obvious "you're an idiot" look. I think Pete's offended by racism but doesn't know how to show it.
Pete to Peggy: "Your decisions affect me. " And how!
I agree that at first Betty bonded w/ the baby, (who I'll bet they call Scott), but that's only until that first midnight feeding.
Still very perplexed about Dennis' behavior in the hall pushing the wife, but I tend to agree that either he already screwed up being a better man or he found out that he was wrong calling Don an honest man through nurse chatter. And how about that "you ever throw the ball around?" line to Don? ouch.
Anybody out there think Don and the teacher will be making a road trip in that car from the magazine ad any time soon? After all she does say "it's going to be a beautiful summer."
I agree with you. This episode was better than the previous ones this season.
I think it was very David Chase-esc. The use of the dream sequences was pretty common in the Sopranos created by David Chase. Matt Weiner learned plenty from him.
I like where things are not so obvious and you have to think about them. I also enjoy the comments I read here. The posters here are pretty sharp.
Yes, there certainly are other explanations as to Mr. Hobart's "snub" of Don (other than their baby died, so we'll put that one to rest). 57Chevy, I like your theory about the waiting room made the men equal, but after that maybe the class consciousness did make Mr. Hobart act different -- and maybe the self-consciousness of having opened up to Don they way he did. I don't think he would have had time to have broken the vow yet, though. All good, plausible theories which make me feel a whole lot better. Thank you forum!!!
I'm a newbie here, glad to find lots of avid MM fans.
In the opening scene the teacher purposefully puts Betty's chair further away -forcing Betty to drag it back towards Don. Teacher mentions she's glad to see them both - as if she expected only one of them ... odd.
Nice to see that Pete is actually working for a change and not relying on his family name.
Peggy could have nailed her raise request by mentioning Duck - it's not like she's afraid Don would fire her. Agreeing to meet with Duck shows she's not blindly loyal to SC and is smart enough to look out for herself. Hope she's not left with the short end of the stick.
I'm a newbie here, glad to find lots of avid MM fans.
In the opening scene the teacher purposefully puts Betty's chair further away -forcing Betty to drag it back towards Don. Teacher mentions she's glad to see them both - as if she expected only one of them ... odd.
Nice to see that Pete is actually working for a change and not relying on his family name.
Peggy could have nailed her raise request by mentioning Duck - it's not like she's afraid Don would fire her. Agreeing to meet with Duck shows she's not blindly loyal to SC and is smart enough to look out for herself. Hope she's not left with the short end of the stick.
I hope we get to see and hear more from little Bobby Draper this season (having a catch with Dad). I was afraid he would end up becoming like one of those silent young Partridge Family siblings.
howdy y'all Another great episode with something for eveyone in it(except for the haters)
Where's Don have you seen him, have you been with him?
Those nurses were right out of Nurse Fletcher's LPN school. Phelps hospital was built in 1957 and is in Tarrytown, only about 5 miles from Downtown Ossining. I used to work in Tarrytown in the eighties and it was a very modern state of the art facility. At first the hallway struck me as to old for Phelps, but the birthroom and lounge struck me as "new enough" for the time period.
Betty's delivery seemed a lot like my wife's deliveries except I was in the room and she had me right there to yell and curse at. that's my ex wife. Very impressive stream of vulgarity without repeating herself. My second son produced an exchange of the Dr. telling her to hang in there it wasn't that bad , it will be all-right, and she unloaded on him. How the #$%& do you know . How many @#$%&*% babies did you ever had. Very entertaining for me. and then I got a beautiful kid out of it. As far as Betty moving slowly to the crying little Eugene(by the way, great baby footage, they cut that adorable yawn off to soon) give her a break.Don could have gotten up. I did all the time, and I was a terrible husband, but a great Dad. not boasting Just the Facts Mam.
And as a moderate Betty basher she did show some affection to Sally, and looked absolutely beautiful in the first dream sequence.
I think Hobart and his wife didn't look at Don and his wife because something was wrong with Hobart's baby- a birth defect or something maybe or maybe the baby died.
My mom told me about after she gave birth to me in the hospital that she was holding me. There was another woman in the room who had lost her baby and she was laying in the bed facing toward the wall- facing away from my mom and me. The woman couldn't bear to look at the other mothers and their babies after she had lost hers. I can't believe that they had that poor woman stay in the same room with other mothers and their newborns. It was pretty cruel.
Eugene Scott Draper
Born June 21, 1963 @ 4:58a.m.
Born in Tarrytown, lists the Draper address in Ossining
Mother: Elizabeth Hofstader, born Cape May, N.J.
Father: (in different, clumsier handwriting) … Draper, … Calif.
Take Five, I think the whiskey helped. Was that Bushmills?
And Peggy (original as a copywriter, but in life, not so mucy) repeated Duck's line to Don. About it being "her time." She can easily be coaxed away. She's one of "those girls." And she's like those people in Manhattan "they want things..."
WOW, this episode was great. Betty's labor was utterly horrifying. What a sad, dettached and alienating experience. The show really brought home the inhumanity of not allowing men in the delivery room. I mean poor Betty--I seriously wanted Don with her to make sure those creepy nurses didn't "accidentally" over-drug her.
This episode really honed in on Betty's perspective and helped us understand her better (in previous episodes this season she has seemed less sympathetic). Seeing the world through Betty's eyes makes me want to scream: go back to therapy! A real therapist who won't rat you out to your husband! You don't have to do this! You're not "just" a housewife!
On the dream sequences: what I found unusual about the worm bit was that Betty showed no girly disgust at the creature. It's like Betty's stronger than she appears to be or thinks she is.
As for the other sequence involving her parents, the main theme to me is how Betty is essentially still a child emotionally. She says in the same breath "I left my lunchbox on the bus" as "I'm having a baby." And she's still afraid of her mother. This basically echoes her telling her dad in the previous episode that she's still his "little girl."
The takeaway: Betty can't grow up. She's been sheltered and held back all her life from the "real world." Her dad telling her she's important but useless, like a house cat, was so sad.
And then her line, "I'm just a housewife, why are you doing this to me?" also terribly sad.
I feel like neither Don nor Betty have what it takes yet to really be good parents or function as healthy adults. Will they learn? When will the other shoe drop for both of them? Will Betty ever sleep with Don again? (After a delivery like that one, I would definitely think twice!) Is Don going to get fired as the spoiler seemed to hint at? (Nooo!!!)
i found this episode a little nerve racking (that's not a bad thing).
A) the reality of 60's delivery rooms (if you think that was bad my mother had kids in the 50's, i am going to spare you her stories). betty's dream, was that a good dream or bad?
B) drunk teacher
C) finally a scene with p&p that told us how tense things are between them ( man the look on their faces when duck said he could tell there was something going on with them)
D) peggy asking for a raise. her not mentioning another offer may mean she considering it.
E) pete and the whole colored tv issue (strange they didn't seem to get the pun)
i made a joke before on another thread about sally seeing gene's ghost in an upcoming episode. now with betty's dream maybe i'm on to something.
okay i will try to clear a few things up. i took the scene in the hall with Dennis as his wife was being discharged without a baby as obviously the baby didn't make it. She was probably discharged the same day as Betty. Also, twilight sleep, as it was called did cause hallucinations and weird dreams. I think they may have used sodium pentothal but i'm not sure. But whatever they used, they also added Demerol to the IV fluids. As a labor and delivery nurse i enjoyed this episode, as things are so different now. It was so weird to see father's waiting for hours and not knowing what's going on with their wives. I think breastfeeding started going out of fashion in the 50's but regained popularity in the early 70's (at least here in the south). If the baby were born in mid June why were the kids still in school? but that's about right because when she found out she was pregnant it was during the cuban missile crisis which was in october, 8 months earlier
I do not believe Pete is a racist. A snob, absolutely. Loved that jacket that Hollis was wearing. Four Seasons wore similar gear, and the Beatles had similar suits at about the same time while still in England. I think some of the brilliance of Weiner's writing is how complete the characters are. I find myself rooting for and against so many characters on this show. Pete is a prime example.He can be so narrowminded at times, astute at other times. He believes in "The American Dream" yet he can't envision the variety of American Dreams. Naiive,lovable, extremely hateable at times. He so easily can hurt someone else's feelings,and so easily have his own feelings hurt. Very powerful Pete- Peggy stuff tonight.
Peggy "It's my decision Pete
Pete "Your decisions effect me. as they used to grunt on Sopranos aaaaayyy oh
@Zabadu good catch on the birth certificate. so it was definitely Phelps Memorial Hospital
@Deepdish thanks for the correction on the Cuckoos nest nurse. as a way of thanking you it was Johnny Walker Red not bushmills.
If fathers were allowed in the delivery rooms back then, Don would probably hold Betty hand with that frustrating silence of his, occasionally commenting to the nurses of the pain that she was in, then whisper something obtuse to Betty.
Or he would make some excuse to leave the room to have a cigarette and quick depression era flashback in the hallway.
Ah, the Mad Men we all know and love has returned this episode! Finally, some intrigue!
Best line of the show:
Hollis: (restarts the elevator) "Every job has its ups and downs"
When Betts was in her "fog", was that supposed to be Medgar Evers her Mom was standing behind with a bloody rag. She said something like: "see what happens when you speak out" Was that Betty's subconscience warning her not to confront Don about his adultry in future or she might lose him or something? What was that all about?
Man, I had my kids too late. They gave her wacky drugs so she didn't feel any pain and probably let her stay in the hospital a couple days to recuperate before sending her home.
I couldn't tell if Betty smooshed the cattapiler or held it lightly in her hand.
Breast-feeding was in fashion when my kids were born. I remember asking my Mom about it. She never did because "they thought bottle formula was better then" (that's what my Mom told me)
@gidget: Walt Disney's voice would come on & show an RV driving (no traffic jams) & Walt would say, "Come out west & bring the whole family to all these great U.S. parks, like Yellowstone ...", & we'd ask my Dad, & he'd say, "What? Fly us all out to California! What is he crazy? And who'd drive that big motorhome thing...? And where is all that summer vacation traffic congestion I've heard guys at work tell me about? And where...."? Just one of my Dad's many, "We may live in a fancy suburb, but we're not rich, you know" speeches. Thanks for making me smile as I think of it.
Friskey, I wonder if the teacher called Don or Betty. She probably called the home (Betty) and just expected mom to come? I still say it's weird (for back then) for a teacher to ask if anything is going on at home. I don't think that kind of conversation was in vogue until the late 70s. Well, maybe freshface maypole girl is ahead of her time.
Someone mentioned that the desks in Sally's class looked too modern - no, exactly the same one I had in 1963. The top was tilted and lifted up to store your things.
@mpen thanks for your insight into birthing practices. I don't no when you started your nursing career, but I have a question. At first I thought the Hobarts baby was dead. But I believe women who had a baby back then stayed in the hospital longer than now. If a baby died or was transferred to another facility for a specialists care, the Mom would be discharged earlier than a woman who stayed with a healthy baby until the baby was released. I think a 10 day stay was normal for a healthy Mom and baby in 1963 ..
@deepdish Phelps was not a Catholic hospital then or now. I think he just said "sister" as one might say lady or hon.
@Frankmar14: I've been trying to get back to your post to re-read it, as I found it very elucidating regarding the Pete-Hollis elevator conversation. I noticed Hollis' look of disdain at Pete, and I wondered if it was all about how television was so devoid of blacks in any aspect of it then, so I thought Hollis was saying to Pete: "Why would we be interested in watching it?" (With so much other important stuff going on). It was only when Pete alluded to the baseball games that he got a softening in Hollis attitude...and then I thought Pete tried to talk his way out of his clumsey, racially-based inquiry (which Hollis knew that was what it was). Pete said something like "it's all part of my job" (or similar words) and then Hollis retorted, "YES, I GUESS ALL JOBS HAVE THEIR UPS AND DOWNS." ( Score 1 Hollis, Pete 0).
But to learn from you the underlying tension was (also) about the issue of class consciousness within black society -- that was very interesting, and I can understand Hollis being sensitive to that --even though I'm sure Pete had no inkling about the subtle layers of his question. That's old "foot-in-mouth-Pete", just doing his foot-in-mouth thing.
Interesting, though, how in all his upper-crustness, he's the one to suggest "integreted ads." Very interesting.
In the early/mid 80s we were out of the hospital in 24 hours (they put a stop to that). They were called drive-through births. A nurse was sent to the home a day or two later to check the baby and the mom. She stayed for like ten minutes. That was with the early version of Humana HMO. In 1973 visitors could smoke in the patient rooms with the newborn in the room.
ouch you have small veins, try not to think about it Breathe deep and think about the beauty parlor.. Ladies , as an old school guy I only go to male barbers, what is so soothing about the beauty parlor.. it stinks in there oh I just remembered my sister used Nair or Lilt or something on her legs that stunk. are those products still in use?
@speters1: If no one has responded to your post yet (and maybe they have, I may have missed it in my quick read through) -- my theory is because this thread starts moving so fast with such a huge volumn of posts about this time of night (the West Coasters kick in) that it is really hard to keep up -- by the time I finish composing a response to a certain post, 30-40 others have come in between.
Your idea that this episode was abstract is right on! I'm still trying to decide if I like it or not. The dreamy street scene (with Betty reaching out for (what I thought was a caterpiller) could have many interpretations. I was expecting her to open her palm and see a beautiful butterfly flitter out. But that certainly didn't happen. What is your interpretation of that scene?
Duck and Francine are back! Hooray! Nobody pushes this story forward like the Duckster.
I am not a fan of dream sequences. Didn't like them in the Sopranos.....thought this one was at least tight and quick. On the other hand, it felt to me like the entire show was a dream in some ways.
I hate to admit this, but I actually thought Betty might throw the baby outside the hospital window when Sally and Bobby were there to wave at her. They've got me half expecting anything to happen regarding this child. Betty doesn't seem to smitten with her. I mean him.
Next week's show looks fantastic.
Finally, I know she's smoked marijuana and picked up a guy in a bar, but I just have a hard time thinking our little Peggy would have the guts to tell Don that she deserves the same amount of money as a man. Maybe she was confident after knowing she was right about Patio, maybe she felt she was marketable because Duck wants her.....I can be talked out of this, but her transformation to Gloria Steinem seems pretty darn quick to me. But maybe that's the way it was.
Dennis is pushing his wife in a wheelchair. She appears to be wearing bedroom slippers and a housecoat with round lapels. Her hands appear to be folded in her lap. I don't see a baby in her arms. It doesn't look like she's being discharged from the hospital. Remember she lost alot of blood in the breech birth.
Don is walking down the hall, flowers in his left arm. He seems to smile with recognition at Dennis. Dennis and his wife seemed a bit cheerful when moving down the hall, but at the moment when Dennis passed Don, Dennis did seem to not want to recognize Don. Don reacted, shaking his head slightly to the effect of "that was odd".
Maybe Dennis felt that he "overshared" with Don while in the waiting room. Maybe Dennis realizes that Don has brought his wife flowers and is going home with the baby, something Dennis and his wife cannot do for awhile longer.
@G: You probably meant for me to "chill out" (gag, spit.). Okay, maybe you don't have the time, or the will, to read 1500 former posts from the 3rd & 4th episodes, but couldn't you ask yourself, w/ 1500 posts, someone else might have noticed that the wedding date was the day after the JFK assassination? If you stay on the posts, you'll find that some newcomer is frequently coming on & asking, "Don Draper has another name?", & you'll have the personal expereience that we all do; that this is only funny the first 100 times you read it. And see all the great company you are in w/ peers born in the 70s? Only old folks like me from the 50s will give you a hard time. And we will (or at least I will.)
@gidget: the plastic screen you're referring to, I remember seeing that described in a mail order catalog, & I thought it was weird then! I never would have thought of that product for the rest of my life! Thanks for a good laugh. (Who would ever buy such a thing?)
The music at the end was "Me Voy A Morir De Tanto Amor" from the Spanish film, Lucia y El Sexo. Roughly translated, it means "I could die from so much love."
@gimletgal; I didn't mean to step on your post --where you mentioned (before I did) Hollis' "ups and downs" quip, and Pete's being ahead of his time in a certain way. That's what happens when I'm rushing through. Sorry.
@racy4, you're right, but I'm a transfer from the Entertainment Weekly recap site, and no one from there picked up on the JFK date. You all are much more insightful, and that's why I'm making this site home.
@KBF i had the same sick thought about a flying baby . it was a quick scene and I was trying to figure out if it was a dream and could happen..
the rest of the family smiling and waving from the street seemed very odd.
Yeah see what I mean, Betty suddenly turned an about face and everything changed with her. She's bonding immediately. But you also have Don who is deciding to start up that bond again with Sally. What's going on here?
But then again, and so far it's only me, but I'm really looking at that last scene as trouble. I don't know. They're making us think, damn them.
I don't know if this was mentioned before. When Sally was watching Don cook that disgusting concoction, he held an egg up to the light. Sally asked "Are You Looking for a chick". Miss Farrell's name came up immediately after. Don averages at least two affairs a season. we are getting close to halfway in season 3. I don't count the stewardess. so he better get going. I also think Sally get's something from Miss Farrell that Betty doesn't give. Like father like daughter?
Pete is always on target with his new idea thinking. he saw the American Bandstand use for Clearisil advertising. ( think Peggy was in on that too) Pete also said to Don how important he felt Space technology would be in the future(when they were in Calif.)
Now Pete sees a untapped market that Admiral TV-client is not pursuing. Pete is on target.
I hope Peggy gets paid more, what she wants, because I'd hate to see her go over to work for Duck.
Don had interesting intimate verbal exchanges with three people during this episode:
- with Dennis who said Don was “all right” and “an honest guy”, and that Dennis could tell because he is “an expert”. Inspired by his child's birth, Dennis said he would be a “better man” and said to Don “tell me you heard me”. Don said “I heard you.”
- with Miss Farrell the schoolteacher - on the phone he is sympathetic to her when she says she was eight when her father died.
- with Peggy. The discussion briefly changed from Peggy requesting a raise, to Peggy having had a baby out of wedlock, without specifically mentioning Peggy's baby. Peggy handled the blue baby bootie on one of the baby presents in the office, and said “third time, you must be old hat”. Obviously she was thinking about her own baby. Don said she would be fine. Peggy said she wants “what he has”, that he has “everything” and “so much of it”. Don agreed. Then the conversation flipped back to the request for a raise.
I'm not going to assume that the producers would follow a predictable TV formula for plot layouts, but is it possible for one of the main characters to be followed outside the rest of the established milieu? Maybe Peggy will be written into a whacky sitcom spin-off with the always hilarious Duck, her meddlesome Brooklyn family and that creepy horn dog priest.
There are just not enough 'Single gal in the city' sitcoms out there.
To All of My Fellow Maddicts: This is the first thread I've read, although I've been a Maddict since Season 1, Episode 1 (hooked from the very first show!).
It's a great show, with fabulous writing, tremendous acting and unbelievable irreverence. But it is spot-on, with moral convictions and dilemmas! That is why it appeals to cross-generational audiences.
All of you from the Greatest Generation, The Baby Boomers, The Gen-X-ers, and beyond keep on posting and sharing your thoughts about the show. They’re fantastic and quite witty.
I hope the show runs for the next few years so we can see a treatment of the turbulent 60's. I see Peggy as an editor to Betty Friedan's, Feminine Mystique, Joan fleeing to Woodstock where she miraculously finds Sally who just hitched her way to Yasger's farm, Pete (what a weasel!) suffocating under his own pride and arrogance, and Don -- he's a survivor -- he will rise to the top somehow.
Don’t worry about the “left coast” receiving pre-information about the episode – we have the option of not reading until after we watch, or catch it at an earlier time…
Wonder if Betts does not want to nurse because she likes her wine so much?
"This is not a good time" for a raise for Peggy- that made me laugh because it was ALWAYS what they told me when I asked for a raise.That or the men needed the higher salaries because "they have famlies to support".
RE the onimous wedding date for Margaret - they not only said the date in the script, they close-upped the invitation on the screen. I wanted to say,"Okay, we get it already.."
Betty's dream parents repeated the messages they taught her in life "Close your mouth, don't speak up. There are consequences for speaking up. Be content with what you've got"" and from Daddy: "You have nothing much to do."
Betty brought the baby to the window because kids were not allowed to visit in the hospital. Moms stayed several days to a week then, with a lot of bed rest at home. ( Maybe Pete would have tossed the baby, as he did that chicken, right out the window.)
Oh, and the chair business during the school visit -that was nothing more than Betts was so huge she could not fit in acstudent chair so thecteacher gave her thecteacher chair, that' s all.
This was one of the most brilliant episodes ever. So many scenes were left for interpretation.
I think the baby and the teacher represent innocence and how Don admires the simplicity of innocence, yet knows he cannot ever return to innocence.
Also, thank you for the Medgar Evans information. I was not aware of him and think the inclusion of his murder in this episode coupled with Pete's "understanding" of the struggle for Civil Rights was interesting.
After each episode, I find myself analyzing every component and researching cultural references. This is the greatest television series ever.
Also, thank you bloggers for your comments. Your insight is thought provoking.
There were a couple of "ah-ha" moments and a couple of "I knew it!" moments, which made my husband look at me funny. I was so proud of myself. I knew Betty's baby would be a boy. The strange dreams came from the DRUGS! I'm so happy I went the way I did with my youngest son. "I left my lunchbox on the bus and I'm having a baby." Beautiful. Don in the waiting room, beautiful, also. So calm and cool and looking oh so handsome while waiting for Betty to get done thrashing and hallucinating to pop out the baby.
I think Pete is starting to get it as far as the civil rights movement goes, just starting to, I didn't say he gets it. I thought it would be Paul, but go figure.
I'll have to watch it again to be sure I saw everything. There must be something in the cabinets of Don and Betty's kitchen, memories coming alive, dream wanderings, what's next? Just kidding, love the kitchen!
Don and Sally are really going to bond now. Bobby's going to start acting up now.
Hi everyone!
A few observations about the hospital/labor and delivery,Betty, and the new Gene.
As a nurse for many years, I am always fascinated by the way nurses are portrayed on TV and film. We have changed a great deal from the 60s. I was annoyed that the first nurse we saw was overweight and a bit of a "nurse Rachett". The other waiting room nurse was a bit of a ditz, and started blurting out "med speak" to the other poor father waiting there. She uses the term breech, and he says he doesn't know what that means. Then she says not to worry because they are calling in a specialist, which makes him worry more.
The labor/delivery scenes were pretty accurate from what I was taught. When the doctor said Betty was 7cm dilated she was in what is called the transition phase of delivery. This is the most difficult part for women. She became angry, and tried to get up. It is not unusual for women at this phase to say "I've decided not to have the baby", or to swear, blame their significant other for the mess they are in etc.
Back in the 50s and 60s, it was not unusual for women to receive a lot of narcotic pain meds during the procedure. That is why the OB doc ordered Demerol, and the nurse put it in Betty's IV.
I thought the cut away scene to Betty holding the baby in her bed and calling her "she" was so realistic. She wasn't with it enough to realize she had a boy. Don had to correct her.
I remember my mother telling me she was so drugged, she woke up with each one of us in her arms, and as she said "it could have been anybodys' baby for all I knew". We were born in the mid to late 50s and early 60s.
Brest feeding was not considered very popular until the late 60s. Bottles and formula were considered more modernearlier. Also, many women felt breast feeding would ruin their breasts shape. That sounds like Betty.
I don't think the guard from Sing Sing and his wife necessarily lost their baby for a few reasons.
If she was being discharged a staff member would have been with them. I also didn't see a suitcase with her, and I thought she was in a robe. I think he was taking her to see the baby at the Nursery.
He may have been too drunk to remember Don. Or didn't recognize Don because he was all cleaned and dressed up. I think Don thought they "bonded" in the waiting room. I did enjoy their exchange in the waiting room though.
If Betty has post partum depression, no one will know what it is. They used to call it the "baby blues", and women were supposed to just get over it and become loving nurturing mothers.
I had to smile when Francine offered a girl for help, Betty (while looking at Sally), said she'd be OK. Poor Sally, she's going to become the little mommy.
I've gone on way too long now. Great episode, so much to talk about!!
P.S. Did anyone else notice Betty's "coming home" outfit? A lovely pink ensemble (because she thought she was having a girl)?
this show is so wonderfully subtle and complex...how many years do you think it will have to run before it shows "the lives and times" of African Americans? the touches are nice and i appreciate the fact that they can't rush it, but i'm curious...it will be interesting to see if they jump ahead a few years in time when the next season starts. i thought it was interesting that Pete was the character they used to "make contact." the Medgar Evers reference was exceptional; maybe there's hope for Sally after all...
I had a chilling thought that Sally's comment about "addling" (which according to her means shaking a fertile egg 'so you can cook it') along with her willingness to shove a heavy girl into the drinking fountain might be prophetic about her acceptance of the new baby. She also didn't expect another brother and doesn't like having the function change for Grandpa's room! But maybe all of this is the end of a story line rather than a continuation, and Eugene Scott will be Sally's new favorite. She's almost the right age for sibling affection rather than sibling rivalry.
Along what I hope is not a similar line, why does Betty perceive the nurse as saying "we'll be covering that in Chapter 12?" when the doctor is both "here and there?" Episode 12? Little in MM seems wasted.
One last comment for the morning--you can see the wire attached to the slowly-falling caterpillar when it's in Betty's hand. You can see it so plainly that I think we're meant to see it. Not sure why.
I do believe the music throughout and at the ending credits played in episode 5 of season 3 "The Fog" was that of Tchaikovsky's "Romeo and Juliet" suite. Could this be true and is this a running parallel to Don and Betty's relationship?
I don't think it was a wire connecting the caterpillar, more like a silk thread, like a spider's web. And we couldn't tell is she crushed it, just closerd her hand over it (I saw no squeeze.) I too expected a butterfly.
Can you believe Francine's "why didn't you FORCE Carla to stay"? Did she not know Mr Lincoln freed the slaves a century earlier? It will be interesting seeing Betty "handle things" on her own, but she seems - dare I say it - almost happy, or at least less miserable than we've seen her in the series. I think she is indeed starting to grow up and become an adult. We'll see how far she gets and for how long it lasts before reverting to "I'm a princess" mode.
And I sensed Don was genuinely puzzled that Miss Farrell called his home - and note the relief when he called out "Betts!" when he heard her calling his name (loved the classic "gotta find my keys, they're in your hand" bit.) I feel like Don's two worlds are slowly exchanging places: home is becoming more stable and work is falling apart.
I'm wondering if Pete will spill the beans about the meeting with Duck (and the fact that Peggy was also there and had the same offer.) Pete seems to assume Peggy may take the offer and go with Duck (and would not be unhappy if she did.) The question is if Don becomes aware of the situation, will he try to keep Peggy on board with a raise, somewhere between what she wants and what he can convince PPL to give. Would he pay her something instead off the books and out of his own pocket?
As much as Don is progressive where Peggy is concerned, he can't - and shouldn't for the times - make that leap that Peggy, and soon others, expect of him and the rest of the men. Peggy is leading edge, ever so slightly ahead of her time, I'm afraid. She will not be sitting on velvet pillows et al at Grey so unless she's smart enough to get a written guarantee of salary plus raises - and I don't see Duck agreeing to that - she should run, not walk, away from the Duckster. He cannot be trusted. Pete knows it.
What was with Dennis(creepily) asking about the young Nurse or was she a Candy-striper?( hospital-worker volunteer ) Dennis asks, when she leaves the cigarette machine(after both men push it to get a pack out) is she about 16? Don kind of shrugs ,looks a bit odd or uncomfortable at the question then basically doesn't answer, ignoring him.
I found Dennis's comment about the girl possibly being 16, creepy. I also found his comment about not bringing Prison work home made my hair stand up.
Morning Maddicts! I love waking up to think more about last nights show don't you?
@hobo - at the beauty salon, everything is done for you, so it is relaxing.
@firstave - I think it's @iwaspeggy who said previously that Peggy is like a sponge, soaking it all up and using it right away to her advantage.
@scan - cheers to '72!
@60's child - great pick up on the pink outfit...I noticed how lovely it was, but forgot about the pink anticipation.
@AuburnAnnie - I also think the bug was some sort of small silkworm. I've seen them come out of trees like that before, on their own little silk threads...but does it symbolize the baby as a "gift" dropping from the sky, or Betty herself in transformation??? I don't think she crushed it.
I also worry about Betty handling everything herself without help...
Peggy has a legal right to =pay now doesn't she?
Equal Pay Act was June 10th, 1963. She doesn't need to play the Duck card, just the reminder about the letter of the law should be enough?
But I suppose it's like all legal equality advancements...a muffled reality that takes time to be put into practice as preached.
I think the caterpillar is a symbol of Betty (it was her dream, after all) and her closing her hand around it symbolizes how trapped and suffocated she feels.
The pink dress is such a great catch. These writers miss very few tricks.
hobo: Phelps is a private hospital just across the road from the Rockefeller property. Don may have said sister but that's just an old fashioned name for a nurse and is still used in England(unless the feminazies have outlawed the term lol)
Women all over the world give birth quietly and it's only American females who scream and get hysterical giving birth. It's probably why the doctors had to drug them with barbituates (not morphia since it would depress the baby's breathing). Who wants to listen to all that childish crying. If giving birth were so bad in 99% of the cases, no woman would even do it.
I wonder if we'll see Betty's stretch marks?
first avenue: Dennis propably worked at nearby Sing Sing prison and perhaps he was the guy who pulled the switch on the electric chair so of course he not bringing that home :o)
And 16 is the age of consent so perhaps he was looking for a replacement while his wife is indisposed or busy with the baby. He was just making sure that the girl was legal.
I'm not sure anyone mentioned poor Peggy had to get her own baby gift - nobody included her in the office collection. So, were the girls being jealous and bitchy, or did they assume that she, being in a higher position would do her own thing, as would Pete, etc. But from Peggy's tone, it appeared she felt left out. Again.
Women all over the world give birth individually. Not all American women scream (very few do, in fact) but I did hear a screamer when I was in labor with my first child in 1983. She was 15, scared half to death, and in false labor, eventually sent home. Gotta tell ya, Monty, it's extremely painful for most women. There are exceptions; those are the same women who never cramp. They have few or no prostaglandins, is all. Think kidney stone pain moved to the lower abdomen.
Both of my children were delivered naturally, no morphine or epidural. Unknown to me (and not requested) at the time of my second delivery the nurse anesthetist added Stadol to my IV during the pushing phase and my blood pressure dropped to paractically unreadable - they thought I was hemorrhaging internally; turns out I'm allergic.
It was too far up to find it now, but someone had asked about the kids still being in school in June.
In NY and NJ you don't start school until September and it runs through a good chunk of June depending on days off and so on. I remember one year I didn't get out until the 26th of June.
This was a great episode, but my main worry comes from the preview...is Don getting fired?
i was the last born in my family. so i liked hear about first borns thoughts about sally at age nine having a baby brother. bobby would be the one to be competing. sibling relationship can be more intense than parent/child.
Dennis was not happy to see Don in the hospital hallway, that can only mean bad news for Dennis' child. The nurse said the child was breech, meaning the baby had not turned and was feet first. Nowadays that usually means a c-section, but some doctors attempt to deliver the baby and complications sometimes occur such as the umbilical cord wrapping around the childs neck and the oxygen is shut off resulting in death or complications. Dennis had used the birth as a new beginning. As a male with children, I was tickled to tell anyone, strangers included that I was a Father. Religion teaches us there are consequences to all our actions, and Dennis may have been feeling his bad fortune was because of his poor choices and this was God's way of punishing him. After all it seems he has an eye for young females. Don seems to have a teflon exterior as eveidenced by Peggy telling him he has everything, and a lot of it. It did seem that Don was trying a new beginning as well, but he chose not to reveal the nature of the drunk dial from the teacher, and that may be a foreshadowing of a future parent/teacher meeting at the Roosevelt.
I think that the Hobo, in Hobo Code and Dennis in The Fog, were both played by the same actor. If so that must mean something.. I think that most of the waiting room scene was Dons inner struggle to untangle the web he has woven for himself. Perhaps it was just a fantasy. Don is a prisoner with in himself and also his own jailer (prison guard). He is searching for the honest man within himself to free him.
I also think Betty had a very difficult delivery. Her barefoot walk down that long corridor into a bright light could have been a near death experience. Going to her home, finding only dead people. Her father mopping up blood, her mother tending to Medgar Evers. Both of them not really taking her seriously, just the advice to keep her mouth shut. He father telling her that she is just a house cat with very little to do. He tells her that everything will be alright.
Ah well maybe that is just my middle of the night fantasy, I should just go t bed and get some sleep...
i, too, noticed the wire/silk that dropped down the worm/caterpillar! i wonder if anyone thought it was symbolism for being baited or hooked. Sort of like a light metaphor for Betty being taken in by something.
I believe Duck was trying to hint at blackmailing Pete when he had them there for lunch and that's why he invited Peggy too. And Pete walked out because he had learned from Don to ignore people like Duck who are powerless.
Dana,
I think your analysis about Don being imprisoned within himself is true.
Also, I do not think anything was wrong with the prison guard's baby. He told Don that this was his way of making a new start and by not acknowledging Don in the hallway, it was his way of leaving his past because Don was now, a part of his past. Also, maybe the prison guard was embarrassed that he was "weak" in front of Don and did not want to recall that weakness.
I definitely think Betty had a near death experience and I am predicting she will suffer from depression again.
I also think we will see the teacher again because remember Don was focused on her during the May pole dance.
In other threads we have discussed how one of the unspoken plot-points in MM is that Sterling-Coo is always a little bit behind the times. Boy, they sure revealed that in this episode, with Pete's flogging over what was almost certainly a progressive and probably good idea (for its time).
However, they did put their finger on a very uncomfortable truism within the ad industry. It is true that the ad agencies secretly know that ads are about how we WANT to see ourselves; we don't necessarily want to LITERALLY see ourselves in ads. There is that unspoken "wish fulfillment" and "upwardly mobile" thing going on... As crass as it may sound.
The whole mood of this particular episode really was dreamy, hypnotic.... like Betty, I too felt as though I were flitting back-and-forth between dream-state and reality.
Never has the MM dialogue been more elliptic than in this epi. So much is left out, implied in the conversations... One has to be on the ball to fully catch the drift of every conversation.
Interestingly, I was born in February 1963, and my Mom did breastfeed. Not sure why she did not follow the trend at the time to feed infant formula.
1963, IIRC, was the year that Dr. Spock's BABY AND CHILD CARE came out?
Poor Hollis. Couldn't you just feel his agony in talking to Pete? Pete, no matter how high-minded he imagines himself, is really clueless about the magnitude and extreme importance of civil rights.
Will Peggy leave? As attractive as the Gray job is, I don't think it bodes well for her to be seduced by Duck.... I fear Gray will go under, forcing her to come crawling back with her tail between her legs, and possibly losing the tenuous foothold she already has. Glad she stood up for herself, though. Interesting that the Equal Pay Law could be passed.... only to still have men like Don sneer at it.
One thing the decor people at MM nailed in this episode was the decor of the fathers' waiting room at the hospital. Ibn 1963, that color scheme--- russet, gold, black---- was thought to be a "manly" one.
(Check out the snazzy interior Patricia Neal buys for her boy-toy George Pepopard in 1961's BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY'S. It-- those colors--- actually looks kinda strident and ugly to me, but we surely appreciate that they were considered ultra-chic for their time.)
Guys (& Gals) I know some of you keep rooting for Don to have another affair, but do you really think he'll do it??
I think the Teacher will throw herself at him one way or another...but will Don go through with it?
Miss Farrell was WA-Y-Y outta line, don't you think?
Does Don give off a certain studly pheromone or something? How did she know just from their schoolroom visit that Don was a "playa" ? I didn't see him leading her on in any way.
.....and why did the other father--- the prison guy---- ignore Don's glance in the hospital corridor when he was wheeling his wife and new baby out?
Is it because he'd sobered up a bit... enough to realize embarrassingly that he'd spilled too many intimacies with Don earlier?
Miss Farrell was WA-Y-Y outta line, don't you think?
Does Don give off a certain studly pheromone or something? How did she know just from their schoolroom visit that Don was a "playa" ? I didn't see him leading her on in any way.
.....and why did the other father--- the prison guy---- ignore Don's glance in the hospital corridor when he was wheeling his wife and new baby out?
Is it because he'd sobered up a bit... enough to realize embarrassingly that he'd spilled too many intimacies with Don earlier?
• I thought The Fog was a great episode; it was a real showcase for January Jones’ acting skills. Thanks to the other posters who recognized the one nurse as also voicing Lisa Simpson. I recognized her voice right away, but couldn’t place it.
• Friskey dingo: it would have been unusual in those days for a dad to take time off work to go to a parent/teacher meeting. Even when the meetings were held in the evening, it was always my mother who attended.
• It’s touches like this that really anchor the show in the right time period. I also vividly remember waiving up at my mother and new baby brother from outside our local hospital in 1969.
• It was good to see Duck rockin’ his turtleneck. Don’t go Peggy! Pete’s right not to trust him.
It was interesting to see Betty come home in what looked like a maternity dress. Unlike Hollywood today which expects new mothers to immediately look like they've never given birth, she looked like she still had her baby weight and was still swollen in her belly. Kudos for showing a what a real woman looks like after childbirth.
So far, the series has been about the goings on within one small agency that's becoming a miserable place to work. The Brits are insufferable. Who could blame anyone for bailing?
And what do you know, Duck's over at Grey.
I can't stand Duck, but Grey is much bigger than Duck. Peggy may see that it's a place where she could grow. She'd get the salary bump she's looking for, maybe even a sign on bonus. She'd get a fresh start in a place where she isn't dismissed as a secretary who worked her way up too fast. There might even be other female copywriters.
Pete may jump for other reasons.
Madison Avenue has lots of agencies. Mad Men work at all of them. It might be time for the story to widen out.
When Don was picking up Betty at the Hospital, he passed the guard in the hallway wheeling his wife in the wheelchair, but there was no baby and the guard ignored Dons greeting. Any thoughts o this?
It's funny--for the first season, my crush was Roger--mostly b/c he so epitomized the fun and recklessness of that era--he'd be a fun guy to have an affair with. I kind of still liked his resilience after his two heart attacks, but I didn't find him quite as sexy. I didn't really have a crush last season b/c I found Don to be too cold, too mean--he's not a lark and he's not a loyal husband, so I couldn't quite put him in the right crush category.
But I'm telling you...I don't know where I've been, but I suddenly have serious crush/hots for Don! Kind of retrospectively back to that first episode...I don't know if it's a new phase I'm in, but that kind of dark powerful progressive (at the time) modern man of ideas who won't suffer fools is suddenly my kind of man.
@ IwasPeggy: We know Peggy is smart. Is she smart enough to make a career move? Or is it just as smart to stick around SC for another year and keep learning from the master? Don is a damn good creative director, and she still has a lot to learn. Interesting to think about the story widening out to include rival agencies.
>>So while my well educated and middle class mom was following the trend back to breast feeding in the early 1960s, the other mothers in the ward who were working class were following what they thought was the well-to-do way.
With women smoking and drinking during and after pregnancy, it was probably a good thing formula feeding was done - this goes for middle as well as working class. My mom said I was a crier and she now thinks it could have been due to me withdrawing from nicotine, so it was probably best I was on formula (soy for me - I was allergic to cows milk). btw - I'm a child of the 60s which is an outstanding decade - arguably the best in the 20th century.
I agree that these Brits make me totally want to puke! I like Brits, as they are usually charming and funny, but these are just vile. I really hope they go away in the next few episodes. They are kind of fun to hate for a while, but they are growing tiresome now.
Good to see Duck again! He is looking good; looks like he is staying off the sauce. Still a snake in the grass, though. Poaching SC for talent (if you want to call Pete talent). I loved it when he outed their little romance! He does have a keen eye.
I don’t think Don will be fired – you know how they do on those previews. I think Roger is just saying bye bye to tell Don to leave the office. But you can tell he is getting fed up with the new management. I loved it when he walked out on the nit picking expense report meeting! Maybe he will start his own company?
That scene where Betty though she saw her dad was good. I know and have read about people when they lose a parent, they think they see them out somewhere and it really affects them. Her dream sequences were well done too. That birth was nightmarish. Makes me grateful I never went through it!
Body language....That was an intimate touch from that prison guard when he put his hand on the side of Don's face. What did you think?
Any body language knowledge from any of our posters?
Ever since the first season, I suspected Don had spent some years in prison before entering the service. There is a gap in his history of about 4 years or so let's say from age 17 or 18 till early 20's.
In the waiting room when the prison guard mentioned his occupation I could swear I noticed a quick flinch on Don's part.
Has anyone mentioned if this is Don't child? Didn't Betty have a quickie with in a bar with some guy that came on to her when she was waiting by the Ladies Room.
I forget which episode that was. Maybe the time frame was too long ago.
Betty's birth scene totally reminded me of what my Mom has told me about having 4 kids during that time. (Upper middle class like Betty). When she gave birth the first time, she said women were screaming and swearing all around her. She says it was the first time she ever heard women using "those words". She said the nurses left you alone and came in every so often until you were "ready" and then put you out to give birth. There were no husband or family around at all. Because of this experience she waited until the last minute to go to the hospital for her 3 other births and ended up almost giving birth to me in the car. Nonetheless, she never ended up having any drugs again, except an epidural and was amazed to be able to witness the birth of her other children with no drugs. And yes, women stayed in the hospital much longer in those days after giving birth. Not a bad thing at all. So, very good job on the scenes with Betty.
- Thought it was interesting that Duck was wearing a turtleneck; it immediately struck me as much hipper than the guys at Sterling. Also liked him telling Pete not to be such a baby. As if Pete's so moral. He would have stayed if Peggy wasn't there.
- Brief scene of Betty's mother conveyed in her hallucination shows just how scared she was of her Mom.
- Chilling scene, to me, of the newborn wailing down the hall and Betty's hesitancy to go to the room where her father slept just a few weeks earlier, and is now occupied by the unexpected son named after her father.
I gave birth in early 60's and breastfeeding was unpopular, thought formula was better for baby and a nurse would accompany the birth mother in a wheelchair till outside the hospital and then would
give the mother the baby.. outside..how about no car seats,,just held the baby in the front seat yet! Child Birth was like in the show. Didn't see the father till after the mother left the recovery room.
I think that everyone who said that Dennis & Don bonded in the waiting room, but that was it, as far as Dennis is/was concerned, is correct. Its just one of those things, you spill your guts, get loaded and then when you see the person again, you don't want to talk.
As for the ad, does anyone remember when Betty was searching Don's desk @ home? He collects ads that he likes and keeps them; Bets found a bunch in his desk.
I'm wondering--why was Gene's mop covered in blood? Anyone got any ideas on that?
I'll take this one:
@tinagl Welcome to the MM board! The baby is undoubtedly Don's, Betty already knew she was pregnant when she had her back room quickie.
@penultimate - interesting theory...there is so much we don't know about Don/Dick....
Thank you modern times for my easy/quick/painless epidural during labor 2 years ago!! This show really gives me some perspective and something to be grateful for today!
I love advertising and it's what originally drew me to this show. Since then, everything about it has made me stay.
What was with the Grey advertising lines from Pete? About people walking in the halls smiling, laughing or whatever. And the "only been at Grey for X time and you're already having a nosh?" Was Grey on of "those firms for those people" (as was mentioned in the first episode re: the Menkin's account)?
Any insight would be very appreciated.
Oh, and I'd like to order a tall January Jones in the caterpillar dream sequence to go please!
In the dream sequence, Betty is wearing a beautiful silk dress. The music and the scenery signal that she is in her "happy place". She has passed from the ugly cocoon stage into a butterfly, lovely, colorful and slim. The inchworm/silkworm in her hand represents the stage she has finished, and, if indeed she kills it, that is symbolic of her wish to have no more children? Or perhaps, as 60s Child so astutly suggests, she will stop measuring the marigolds now and live more fully?
The dream changes to an indoor scene where she is half-woman, half-child. We see her being criticized by her mother, told to close her mouth. But she is validated by her daddy, who tells her she is important and reassures her that he misses her. Still working out her parent issues.
Inchworm, inchworm, measuring the marigolds
You and your arithmetic will probably go far
Inchworm, inchworm, ___________
_______________, how beautiful you are.
One and one are two, two and two are four,
Eight and eight are sixteen,
Sixteen and sixteen are thirty-two.
It's a children's counting song. Help with the blanks, please?
Inchworm, inchworm, measuring the marigolds you and your arithmatic.
You'll probably go far. inchworm, inchworm, measuring the marigolds;
seems to me you'd stop and see how beautiful they are.
(Violen solo)
Inchworm, inchworm, measuring the marigolds. You and your arithmatic, you'll probably go far.
Inchworm, inchworm measuring the marigolds; seems to me you'd stop and see how beautiful they are.
(kids chanting goes on repeating 2&2 are 4... etc...)
Seems to me you'd stop and see how beautiful they are.
Seems to me you'd stop and see how beautiful they are.
I loved Betty's line in her dream about "I left my lunch pail on the bus. And I'm going to have a baby." Just showing that even Betty views herself as a child in a woman's body?
The waiting room stuff is fun to mull over. I kind of wonder if Don wasn't imagining the conversation with this guy. Seemed kind of like things Don wouldn't normally share with a stranger, but then he did open up to Connie a couple of episodes ago.
Thank you so much, Double D! I hate it when my brain does that.
Some small observations:
Pryce is bean counting, but wastes most of his whisky.
Don admits to having dreams about winding up in prison!
Betty rises reluctantly to feed the newborn. That means having to go to the kitchen to mix and warm the formula, all the while trying to keep Eugene's crying from waking the household, and with only two hands. She has done this twice before and knows how exhausting it is. She is struggling with taking that first step, but resigns herself to it. But she knows it will be quite a while before she recaptures the freedom she had before the birth. Breastfeeding would've been so much simpler, just take the baby into bed until satiated, and put it back into its crib. By the way, why isn't the baby sleeping in their room for the first few weeks?
Re the car ad that Don ripped out of the magazine in the hospital waiting room: isn't that the car he and Betty (and Gene) drove up to their house in when he brought Betty home? I'm pretty sure it was.
Somebody on a local board has suggested that “Dennis” is really Don’s guilty conscience. And that what happened to “Pam” was what happened to Betty: breech birth and lost a lot of blood.
Notice the light on the hospital room wall – the time elapse showed that over a day passed…and then we see Betty sitting up in bed with the child.
He goes on to say that that comment Dennis made about the prison stopping the works while he’s absent ties right in with how the show did not go on while Don was waiting for Betty in the father’s room.
I thought it was an interesting observation on the poster’s part.
Well it's been about 12 hours or so that I've had to digest the 2 viewings and I'll watch again . I've learned so much from your posts and now that we know it was Johnny Waker red, Suzanne Ferrell the famous prima ballerina, and Yardley from the Simpsons, we still have a few things to clear up.
I had such a sad and wary feeling at seeing Betty hesitate before she left her bedroom to attend new baby boy.... It seemed to me that she was contemplating a long walk away from her life and her perception of what it holds in store. As a 'housecat' she weighs the value of what she has to offer this new baby. Betty has never had much of what we'd call a purpose other than to look good. Of what value can that be to a baby?
Somehow, in that moment, Betty was reviwing her small toolbox and finding that she doesn't have much to work with...
Dennis' disregard of Don appeared to me as typical male behavior.. The bottle of Johnny Walker and the conversation betweern them being more easily dismissed than affirmed.. As we know, Don stockpiles everything and not always just what's been scribbled on a cocktail napkin.. That conversation, for his part, may be his new bedrock.
Betty's drug induced dream sequences were just more of what her relationships were like with her living parents. Whole nuthr empty and rattling tool box entirely...
Dana -
I looked it up. The hobo in Hobo Code was played by Paul Schulze, Dennis was played by Matt Bushell.
The thing about the Brits is what a lot of people who've worked with Brit upper management in England can tell you: They're heavily influenced by social class, even now. If you went to the right schools, it's an easy fit. If you didn't... you'd be better off working for an American company. Naturally, there are some exceptions but Lane is not one of them.
And, as usual, there's the typical social and philosophical difference between an acquiring company and the acquired company, e.g. the meeting about expense reports Don came late for and almost immediately left. I half-expected to hear him use the word "pettifogging" in his meeting later with Lane.
a_mob_hit-- I too would love to see some flashbacks to Don and Betty meeting, dating, their wedding, and the early years of their marriage! However we've already been told how and when they met. It was when Betty was modeling for a fur coat campaign. Don was working for the company as a copywriter. He asked her out and at first she refused. He noticed how much she loved the fur coat she was modeling and her reluctance to give it back. He bought it and had it sent to her. She was very impressed by this and then she agreed to date him. Don tells Anna about meeting Betty and that he fell for her at least in part because she was so beautiful and also because she seemed to be very happy.
@ 60s Child - I noticed the pink outfit too. The question I have is why doesn't Betty want a boy?
@sab4ever - I agree---Don's being sent on a business trip, (maybe to the UK to "fix" something w/ the pp&L people?) , which is why in the previews an exasperated Betty says " I don't know what to say". She's reacting to being told he's going away and leaving her w/ a newborn, 2 kids and no help. Plus she now knows what happens on business trips.
I don't know if we'll ever find out why Dennis looked down. Lots of good theories, though.
Another funny line from this episode: "Are we through with the flogging:?"
Roger: "Yea, it's never as good as the build up" (Or something like that).
A friend and I watched together, and both of us had the same interpretation for Betty's hesitation at the top of the stairs at the end of the episode, one that I am surprised not to have seen here yet. What we both took away from the scene is that she thinks about going downstairs to prepare a bottle for the baby, but is so tired that she, completely unplanned, decides to just go and breastfeed him instead! It sets up an interesting scenario of her realizing that she IS important, and can provide something for the baby that no one else can---and it is really like Betty to be quietly rebellious...I don't know, maybe we both just found the thought that she would willfully neglect him just too much to bear. (For the record my mother had babies in '58. '65, '66, and '70 and always told me that she never breastfed any of us and never was given the least encouragement to do so).
@amybett: I think Joan might already know she's pregnant, which is why she knew the name of a saleslady who could help her pregnant dinner guest gets some good looking maternity clothes. Watch that episode again...the other lady says something like "Joan knows everything" and Joan and her husband knowingly cut their eyes at each other.
I don't know if it was intentional, but the hospital scenes in The Fog gave an almost horror movie vibe. I found the nurses creepy. How about the scene at the end of the episode where Betty's hallucination theme (which sounds like the theme from Up btw) was playing as she was walking towards her crying newborn? I half expected her to walk into the room to find Sally standing over the crib, but something is something off with Mrs. Draper instead?
Its interesting how they brought in the civil rights issues on the periphery, but in case we didn't get it they had to throw in the name Martin Luther King, though at the same time it answered whom that the suited bleeding man that "spoke out" is indeed.
Dr. Benjamin Spock's "Baby and Child Care" was first published in 1945. It includes recipes for formulas and many pages on sterilizing water, equipment, nipples and bottles. No wonder Betty is reluctant to respond to infant Gene's crying!
Women who had babies after WWII were very breast-conscious. They believed that nursing would make their boobs look like the native women's in National Geographic magazine. Bottle feeding was terribly inconvenient, but middle class women did not want to be considered "peasants" and wanted the mobility that bottles give a mother. No embarrassing public nursing!
My hospital stay in both '66 and '69 were 4 days.I was under strong Iinfluence of my motherinlaw, who's experience in the mid '40s was that the expected stay was at least 10 days flat on yr back with nurses in a flurry of attendance and bringing baby at feeding times ..
Motherinlaw was incensed that I was up and out and expected to start tending baby immedately. She called her own OB guy, who lived across the street to register serious complaint about how things were being run at the hospital and expected that he would rush over to review me, baby and the entire distasteful episode...
My OB man had been hand picked for me by same motherinlaw and her bridge group... OB guy was the son or nephew of one of 'em, he was new and all the rage, but enuf enuf of new when ur 1st grandchild is the guinea pig......
Hystercial retelling here has made me realize that Betty wasn't the onliest one who lived a sur-real existance... I came thru it with stories to tell,perhaps she will as well...
Hi All. I'm new to the blog, but love, love, love this show. I just had to comment on the Dennis dissing Don scene. I think it's a little more than him just being embarrassed about opening up to Don. I think he knew he had already broken his promise to be a better man by drinking. He came to his wife's birthing with a bottle of booze. Even for Don who drinks like a fish this was a surprise. He obviously has a lot of problems - checking out the candy striper, described himself as "dangerous". My guess is he had probably told his wife he wouldn't drink any more and he had just gotten drunk again waiting for his child to be born. Don was a witness to his weaknesses, yes, but he also might have brought up the booze had they stopped to chat.
SixtiesGirl, you are right on target. In the time that passed after the birth , Dennis had already done something to go back on his rpomise. Seeing Don again made him feel guilty to the point he could not look him in the face.
My experience with eveery business I've belonged to:
When the management starts counting rubber bands and paperclips stingily.... it's an overall bad sign for their business in general...
When I've worked for "gangbusters" successes? Where money and good reputation are just flowing in? They don't bloody care how many post-it notes the employees are using.
@amybett: yep. OR the writers are just throwing that out to see if we'll bite. However Joan's knowing she's pregnant would actually explain a lot regarding Joan this season. I think the unexpected news Joan will receive will be something else, like her husband not getting chief resident or something SC related.
Love this site!!
My thoughts... Although the schoolteacher/Don setup is obvious for a possible "fling"....I am not so sure that it will happen. The teacher is clearly taken with Don..but, can the same be said for him to that same degree? I think that she is NOT Don's type. She appears weak with her emotions as she calls the house after downing "a few" and confesses to Don that her father died when she was only 8 and then she gets all weepy. He softens to her at that point... but then he is brought back to reality when Betty calls out. He seems almost relieved for an excuse to hang up on this girl.
As far as the "FOG" in the title.... when Francine asks Betty how it was (the birth/delivery), Betty tells her that it was "all a fog".
Betty never wanted this baby. She closes her hand over the silkworm and we are not sure if she crushes it or not. There seem to be hints that something might happen to the baby. I wonder if there will be a SIDS tragedy for them and both Betty and Don will have to deal with their "guilt" and then perhaps there will be an effort to be "better" husbands, wives, parents, etc......will they succeed?
This episode gave me the creeps. Must be because of the dream sequences and the scene at the end. When I looked up how to spell caterpillar, I'm reminded that it's a larva. Betty closes her hand around it and holds on.
Betty is keeping herself in a place where she has yet to become a butterfly, spread her wings, express herself and fly outta there. First, she has to go into a cocoon state. The line that sticks in my mind is in her dream, Gene saying (something like) "You're a house cat. You are very important and you don't have much to do." I'll watch again and report back.
After all the powerless moments Betty had to endure in the hospital (not to mention her marriage), she managed to flex what little power she had in naming her son Eugene.
Knowing that Betty was so sure it was going to be a girl, I was a little surprised that she didn't reject him. But it will be interesting to see how the rest of the family reacts once they get used to him being around.
Great show though I thought it was a bit obvious and overdrawn in terms of Betty's "arrested development".
The real question is where does she go from here.
The hospital scene was priceless. Drinking, smoking, and the "shut up and we'll do the work" attitude of the staff.
I'm not sure about dennis. The only thing I could guess was that something didn't turn out; after all it was a breach. Still, it seemed odd to leave that up in the air.
The admiral TV thing w/t race was fascinating. Peter is smart but perhaps not wise (no news there).
WTF was Duck thinking? That was incredibly unprofessional and downright stupid.
He knows enough to keep this on the QT but then invites them both on the ASSUMPTION that they are a unit. Even if that were true, he shouldn't assume it because if he's wrong then you have the situation of 3 people with a secret not to mention the acrimony but if he's right he might as well feel them out separately first and mention the other one as a possibility to each to see where that goes. It seemed like a stupid gamble to invite both as it had a huge downside and pretty much no upside (just one lunch vs 2! What a deal!)
What I'm really excited about is where the agency is going. In someways it looks like Don could be in trouble
1) I haven't seen him do anything godlike since the acquisiition
2) The company is annoying him to no end
3) Peggy could leave
4) Sterling is no longer an ally and even perhaps an enemy.
5) I get the feeling that the agency isn't doing so well.
Still, as a practical matter, how much lattitude is there in this show to have people leave the agency without writing them out of the script? Maybe that's not such a big deal becuase the show jumps around from person to person. It's not the "sterling cooper show"
I guess there's only so much trouble Don could be in. I believe he's probably rich enough to retire (and so there's no "hobo Don' in the future). Consider that Sterling clearly is quite rich. Don had 12.5% of the company. Sterling/Cooper+Sister split the rest. That would suggest something like 30% or so for Roger but then he probably had to give half that up for the divorce. And yet, he's still rich which would seem to imply that Don is pretty rich.
Furthermore, Don has a rep as a God not to mention that he is one of those people that can always land not just on their feet but at the top. He's talent. Why, with his looks he could be an actor! (-;
Still, the agency seems dysfunctional. Something's gotta give.
People. Stop with the "Dennis' wife must have lost the baby" stuff. If you watch the scene where Don and Dennis see each other in the hallway, Dennis and Wife are smiling, then Dennis' facial expression changes. One does not usually smile when a baby dies. As some of you have said, the man was probably just embarrassed for oversharing with Don. I don't think men have ever been all that comfortable sharing deep emotions, and this would have been especially true in that era.
Onto other things: If Betty is a "housecat," then "Fog rolls in on little cat feet," to quote Carl Sandburg. Not sure what is the significance is, but there you have it.
I always watch MadMen at least twice to catch all the little--and not so little--nuances. Try it!
As fascinating as the Betty labor scenes were, I thought the Peggy and Don scene was the best in the episode. There’s so much to it. Peggy sees the unfairness of not being paid the same as a man, but won’t get equal pay. She is dealing with the idea of her lost son while giving Don the baby present. And Don knows exactly what she’s thinking of when she fingers the baby shoe. “What if this is my time?” - Oh, I feel her pain. I wanted a good Pete/Peggy scene, and boy did I get it when she runs into Pete right after her encounter with don – “It’s my decision, Pete,” she says about taking up Duck’s offer. In response Pete gives this juicy double entendre, “Your decisions affect me.” What a scene! Elizabeth Moss deserves an Emmy just for that little bit alone.
57Chevy – I love the original Yours, Mine, and Ours! I came from a relatively small family and it fascinated me how they ran that household.
In the 80's and early 90's I use to work in NY(modeling while at University and years after) and I use to go on castings at both Ogilvy-Mather and also Grey Advertising. The other model, actresses I'd be waiting in the studio with (if the audition was held at a casting studio) or in the offices of the Ad agencies ,if we had managed a call-back and were called in to meet the casting director again or an art director or even sometimes the client at the agency. What I use to hear from the models and sometimes even the booking agents (at the modeling agency)was that Grey Advertising handled several large Ethnicnically diverse accounts. Ogilvy-Mather was always described as the cream of the crop, though, in Advertising. I would go to Ogilvy and see "Supermodels" in the waiting area, although they didn't wait long, from what I recall. I'm not sure, what was true then concerning the different stature of the agencies and their cient list , but seeing Mad Men showcase these agencies and bring in Grey during the begining of the Civil rights era, now, I wonder?
I think Don's gonna leave and start his own paper company.
Wait...wrong show. Seriously, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Don would start up his own company. He has the $$ from the merger and he has people more loyal to him than to SC. The only thing I can't see him doing is groveling, and it seems like he'd have to grovel some to SC folks that he'd want to take w/ him. Michael Scott he is not.
I can't believe I'm first! No comment yet, just glad to be here. Let's be nice, civil, enjoy and appreciate how much we learn about MM, especially when we get to hear another's take, another's spin. Lot's of room for everybody. Can't wait until Sunday. Love to all Maddicts.
Okay, so let's look forward and consider; 1) When Betty and William go to Gene's house will Gloria have already "acquired" many of the artifacts/possessions/objects that Betty and William covet and associate with their parents? 2) Will Roger and Don's friction at the Derby develop into a greater discord due to personal differences (recall Roger hitting on Betty following dinner) and professional differences (Peggy rising and Roger's disconnect with society). 3) Will Betty lose the baby? 4) When will Don fall back off the marital monogamy and spice up season 3? 5) When will Betty divulge to Don about her extramarital affair at the end of season 2 (probably after #4)? 6) How will Kitty's terror over Sal's "performance" in preparation for directing the diet pepsi commercial play out? 7) What will Joan do now that her facade has been exposed, and can we 8) please see Joan play the accordion again, or at least have a night out on the town and perhaps do some open night singing again. Love Joan love her lover her, love her.
"Long time fan,first time poster". Just re-watched episode four and noticed two things (sorry if someone has already mentioned these).
When Peggy looks through the window of the bar, she sees a guy playfully take a bite from his date's burger, then mimics the flirtation with her 'pick-up'. After, of course she cops Joan's line about the crowded subway.
The other thing was the date of Roger's daughter's wedding (why didn't I pick-up on that!). The day after JFK assassination. I thought MW didn't want to touch on the drama of this? We'll see...
Hi G, I read a lot of this stuff and never heard anyone ever mention the other guy biting the burger. Very good catch! Keep on posting, looks like you have a good eye.
okay it's saturday i'm done with the episode 4 thread . to long to stroll down Hi Deep congrats on being first.
When Peggy took her ad 'looking for a room mate' off the board, Joan mentioned something about Henrik Ibsen. Henrik Ibsen was a norwegian playwriter introducing feminist dramas.Wonder is she had any specific play in mind.1959 the play "the Doll's house was introduced in America.
Ciao
Re: E 305 Tag line: "Betty has a strange dream."
Wonder if it goes anything like this...
"Mad Men in 60 Seconds" ("The celebrated series is broken down to one minute." - youtube video, with nearly 50,000 views, posted 9.7.09, by LandlineTV)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X654tkCvoQ
Like Bacchus, I'm feeling that Don has lost patience with Roger and the fray is showing markedly.. Roger's inability to romance the Madison Sq developer was only the begining... Roger can't focus on the business and rambles on about his personal life...Don, who compartmentalizes better than anybody, has little interest in the self inflicted Sterling Saga. I doubt that Don will tolerate much more ... It will be interesting to see if Cooper is brought in to still the waters or Don will make a move on his own to bring Roger around or drop him like a stone...Roger has always wanted to build a buddy relationship, he needs a friend now more than ever but he'd do better to get a dog...Maybe Chauncy reappears??.
Nice Norwegian connection by the mention of the Ibsen plays Allegra! I don't think that Joan was referencing any particular play but only the overall theme of his work, unfulfilled women trapped in a life that seems to show bright promise if you don't dig any deeper than the surface... Seems to me that Joan is projecting her own worries.
Peggy's life looks like s it's moving along about like she planned... Joan's, not so much...
Will we see Joan take some corrective action? If there is more turmoil and tension w/ their British partners, maybe MoneyPenny gets the boot? It will be the perfect wedge Joan can apply and bring her considerable skills and talent to bear , thus sav ing her from a banishment to the Siberia of the subburbs...
Joan, who sees all, recognizes that Peggy is making inroads and hasn't needed a sultry kitten voice or voluptious curves to accomplish same. Now that Joan is mid 30's and newly married, she is protected from the ' just past prime' in Madison Ave shelf life for women who need men's attention for validation.. Joan will use this new info to begin to assert herself as an accomplished woman who has great talent to offer, all the while huming to herself "I Enjoy Being a Girl"
Hey nana benz, maybe SC will get the Alpo dog food account and Chauncey can be their first spokesdog.
Allegra-- you struck a nerve with your Ibsen speculation. I'm convinced that Matt Weiner is basing Don's story on Ibsen's Peer Gynt, which deals with a hero who is desperate to hold onto his identity in the face of opposition and is goaded by guilt over his mother. The play is based on Norse mythology. Don't forget, Betty says "my people are Norse".
This season is definitely moving slower in both pace and ‘time’ (ie; we’re 5 episodes in and it’s still spring, 1963). I’d prefer a faster pace, but I think they’re building up the tension/conflict in the story lines that’ll explode when we reach the Kennedy assassination.
Having said that, here are some scenes I’d love to see:
Flash-back of Don & Roger’s first meeting (Don was selling cars and Roger bought a lemon, came back angry and Don drinks him under the table in a local bar. Roger: “You can sell & drink ?!?– You’re hired!”)
Roger’s father and Bert Cooper when the company was first starting out (and Bert’s sister babysitting little Roger Sterling)
Jimmy Barrett getting busted (for drugs/drunk driving/hookers) and needing Don’s help
Betty Draper discovering who Don really is and having a complete meltdown - and getting out the shot-gun and shooting more birds (or perhaps something more threatening?)
A drunken Sal waking up in Kurt’s (the gay blonde Russian’s) apartment
Joan fighting off Dr. Creepy’s violent advances – I’d love to see her smack him
The Brits realizing they’ve made a big mistake in buying SC – and now they want their money back
Sally getting sent off to boarding school once the new baby (girl) arrives
Little Bobby loves the Beatles (before they arrive) and tells Don
Don bumps into a drunken, broken, bitter Duck in a bar
Peggy’s new roommate: Sal, recently tossed to the curb by Kitty
Roger’s new boss: A Brit-twit who doesn’t drink, smoke or chase women – and doesn’t like men who do.
Joan’s new boss: Peggy, who, with Joan’s helps, turns Peggy into a female version of Don
Ken Cosgrove getting hit on by a gay man (no, not Sal) and reacting badly
SC new big client: The ‘Military-Industrial Complex’ – “We’ll sell the war in Viet Nam like Soap Flakes”
Can I post predictions on the open thread?
Cheers~
Hard Marker
Fifty-Two, as you probably know, "In The Hall Of The Mountain King" is from the Peer Gynt Suite.
I wonder if the title of this episode "The Fog" has anything to do with Betty's strange dream? If not, any guesses if her dream will foreshadow something or give her a clue about Don's strange past?
Link to summary of the Peer Gynt story. Some similarities, but the rest is Norse to me.
http://www.answers.com/topic/peer-gynt-play-1
By MadGrad65 on September 12, 2009 9:15 PM
I wonder if the title of this episode "The Fog" has anything to do with Betty's strange dream?
Kind of a stretch...but Scarlett O'Hara was plagued with nightmares of fog and her daddy called her Scarlett as if it was something he had called her before....
Wow, Oz-- for a summary, that's a lotta Norse! I think if Weiner's using that story as a rough metaphor for Don's life it's the Cliff Notes version. Fun read-- thanks for the link!
Has someone seen this episode? Or is this just anticipatory talk?
@Lily Oei: I tried to e-mail you, but could not. Can you block the "Liquor" poster from posting at all? I consider his blog name a form of sexual harrassment! Many viewers have expressed that they are offended by his 12 year old name choice, & have asked him to change his name, but they've been ignored. I (& others ) are forced to just ignore him. You have access to his e-mail address. Can't you PLEASE stop him NOW!?!
@Everyone: You can post which MM character will appear first in the opening scene on both S3E5's Open Thread, & STEPHANIEJo has started a thread just for that purpose-to vote for which character opens the first scene. Don't forget to vote!
@ALL OPEN THREAD POSTERS: I have managed to create 2 new threads. PLEASE visit them: The first thread is for any President Kennedy Assassination memories, especially 1956 & 1957 (people born in these two years.) I'm interested in anyone's story, even if they aren't a MM fan, or a poster.
The second thread is to post for "guilty pleasures" (now known as "GPs") & the 4 movies you would choose to present & discuss w/ an audience, the way they do on TCM. You can guess at what GPs & 4 films that MM characters might choose for themselves, but I'm interested in your 4 choices, as well. Remember, I'm not asking you to choose your 4 FAVORITE movies, or what you think are the 4 GREATEST films, just 4 you would present & discuss in front of, or with an audience. Some people don't understand the questions, & just begin rattling-off all their favorite films. This is the reason that there is only 4 choices, & in particular, why would you (or a MM character) choose these 4, & why are these tv shows or films, your GPs?
My guess for who will appear first in episode 5 is Don. OmarsMom chooses Peggy's new roomate. We also voted on the special thread: Which MM Character Appears First In The Upcoming Episode.." or something like that (thank-you, STEPHANIEJo!)
TO THE MALE POSTERS: When the drug dealer was trying to make a pass at Peggy, on the third pick-up line remark, the creative team guy said, "Give it a rest, will ya?" Okay men, come through here for me (& all us interested female MM posters): Was the creative team guy, 1. Just sick of the drug dealer talking? Or, 2. Was he trying to tell the drug dealer that Peggy wasn't interested? Or, 3. Did he say that because he likes Peggy for himself? Any answers, you Mad MEN posters?
@nan: Definition of Peggy: "Stealth sheeathed in School Girl Plaid". Great. What a talent. I hope Elizabeth Moss uses that line of yoyr in her acceptance speech, next Sunday, at the Emmys!
Wait, won't the Emmys be on at the same time as MM? Which to record. Oh he;;, I'll record the Emmys. Someone here on The Open thread for Episode 6 will surely post as soon as MM. or Elizabeth Moss, Guy playing Roger (can't think of his name)or Jon Hamm wins.
@Deep Dish: Congrats for getting here to The Open Thread first, but why waste it when you could have posted your guess on which MM character will open the first scene?
@G: Do you have a pistol? Please point it at me b4 you pull a George Sanders.
@G: Also go into the Topics available on blogs for mine on kennedy Assassination memories.
@Deep Dish: Were you just being kind to G, or didn't you read the end of the Open Thread for Episode 4, where Peggy mimicking the hamburger biting scene, was thoroughly discussed? I'm not even going to ask you why you skipped over her mention of the wedding invitation date.
@nana benz: "Roger couldn't focus away from his personal life", & "Don compartmentalizes better than anybody." I know its early, but if you don't win the AMC prize this week, for what you just posted, I'll eat my MM Times-Square-acquired-&-logo-embossed fedora.
@HardMarker: Oooooo..I like the Sal ends-up in Kurt's bed after a drunken night! But, would Sal remember any of it? Aren't we all dying for Sal to experience the one thing he always wanted to/needs to?
Also, I would add that Betty enters into Primal Screen Therapy.
'Night MMaddicts! Since it's 4:11 AM here on the East Coast, I';ll catch you all later this evevning. Remember, I'm 2 for 2. I've correctly guessed which 2 MM characters were there to open the last 2 episodes. I say Don opens episode 5. My guess is the favorite!
Pregnancy dreams can be very strange and according to some, are anxieties related to the baby coming realizing themselves. Mine were insane but didn't mean anything really. Betty may find some way to deal with her anxieties and problems through her dreams. I feel that Don is Don, no matter what anybody may bring up in the future.
Roger and Don may have some disagreements about the new management, but since Roger is SO engrossed in his life, he won't see the reality of the situation.
Betty's water will break either at the beginning or very end of the episode. The baby (not sure of gender, but I'm thinking boy), will be tiny and premature. Sally will go off to private school, Bobby will have the classic middle child syndrome and start acting out due to lack of attention, this is where Betty's attention will be now for at least a couple of episodes, baby in hospital and kids going wild. Don will step out again, but this time experience a world of guilt which keeps him drunk for a while.
Peggy will start wearing pencil skirts looking very fetching in her new wardrobe, heck, she may even attempt to wear trousers to work. Joan will help her think like a man, yet act like a woman.
Sal will accidentally out himself. Not sure how yet, but will be interesting to see how that happens.
Joan will find out she's pregnant.
I know this seems like a lot for one episode, but then again this is Mad Men ;).
O HAPPY MADMENDAY!
I wd love to see Don first but I suspect that we shall be afforded a glimpse of Jane and Roger, chez Cooper!?
FIFTY-TWO: Great Ibsen/Peer Gynt call. I WAS PEGGY: YES The Peer Gynt Suite! When Don went to visit Anna after the hedonistic- Jet Setter's- lost weekend, the boy piano student was (painfully- very harsh and staccato-esque) playing a piece from it. And that is why our genius MW titled the episode "The Mountain King"!?
ALLEGRA & NANA B : Apropos-MW must be a huge Ibsen FAN since many of his women characters do seem trapped in an existential cage of their own construction. MANTASTIC citing!
I too wonder what "The Fog" alludes to : Denial, Confusion, Dreams, Bad Weather, Being Lost, "The London Fog" Account Revisited, Actually Being in Londontowne, Poor Eyesight, Having a Headcold (proto- influenza porcina), Being Drunk, Lost at Sea, Up in an Airplane amidst Clouds,
Not being able to Communicate, Comatose, Delusional???
HMMM. After tonight, P'raps ALL WILL BE CLEAR!?
OOPS: forgot to mention this,
RACY- I agree that the monty-like poster's username is distasteful. I was teling Dr.K. about the scenario since I had been reprimanded too (for other reasons). He told me that during Prohibition that phrase was slang for a Speakeasy. I was a barmaid and was not aware of this!? Unfortunate choice. BOO-HISS!
Love Ya! CHEERS!
Hello all Maddicts,
Just came across this article about the real Don Draper, yes, the REAL Don Draper, the legendary Chicago ad man that MW admits was the inspiration for DD. I think you'll enjoy it.
The real Don:
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/August-2009/I-Married-a-Mad-Man/
Can’t wait for The Fog to roll in. Look forward to hearing for old and new voices.
Laundry is not new, your mother, her mother, her grandmot sorry I don't know why but I keep repeating this phrase I think I am going insane. where did I leave Dr, Waynes phone#
Did anyone notice the desks in Sally's classroom. Pretty modern looking for 63. we were still using old wooden desks with a built in inkwell receptacle.Much better your initials inside a heart along with that months girlfriends iitials,
I too am wondering what "the fog" means, but it is not clear to me.
Other than the name Draper, not sure how much MW "based" Don Draper on Draper Daniels. Where did MW say this? Between Michigan Ave and Madison Ave, between The Marlboro Man and Lemon, there's a world of difference. Don Draper and Sterling Coop are solidly Madison Ave. But Myra Daniels wrote a sweet story, worth the read.
A lot of people claim fathership to the Marlboro Man, Tony The Tiger -- all the Burnett critters. It's conceivable. At Burnett, they worked in big teams and committees. When I was there in 1985, Frosted Flakes was in our group. I was told that an art director (named Don), who was retiring at the time, came up with Tony The Tiger.
Hi Oz, I copied this from the article. True, the author does not cite when/where MW "acknowledged" this. But with his name being Draper, too, I found it believable.
...Matthew Weiner, the producer of the television show Mad Men (and previously producer and writer for The Sopranos), acknowledged that he based his protagonist Don Draper in part on Draper Daniels, whom he called “one of the great copy guys.” Weiner’s show, which takes place at the fictional Sterling Cooper ad agency on Madison Avenue, draws from the golden age of American advertising.
Tac, @ fifty-two. The sequence of "the Hall of the Mountain king" in the play "Peer Gynth" is when Peer sneaks into the Mountain King's castle. Speaking of Don....he was sneaking into Anna's 'castle.You all enjoy tonite, I live on a different continent.
@Deep Dish: It's from an interview with Mike Reynolds (Multichannel News, 7/18/2007):
MCN: Did you go back to some of the icons of the era? Are some of the characters composites of the big names from Madison Avenue’s past?
MW: It depends on what you think are icons. When you read the history of advertising, there's David Ogilvy, there's Bill Bernbach, George Lois and so forth. Ogilvy is the only person who worked in anything like a place like ours, and I did read his book. Who I really modeled it on -- when I read these histories about agencies in the ‘50s -- were these super White agencies. I guess McCann was like that, BBDO was like that. There were some characters at these places … There was a guy named Draper Daniels, who was considered one of the great copy guys ever, and that's where I got that name [series protagonist and resident creative genius at Sterling Cooper], John Draper.
Thanks Oz. "in part" Clears that up. But John Draper?
@Deep Dish: I cut and pasted, that's how it appeared. Typo Bad on the publication.
There should be a separate thread on the differences between Madison vs. Michigan Ave advertising. Those were two different worlds. They finally came together when Doyle Dane Bernbach merged with Needham, Harper & Steers in the late 80's. I remember thinking wow, Keith Reinhard is now Helmut Krone's boss. Guess you had to be there, but for a lot of us, that was suddenly Twilight Zone.
Just like the place Don and Roger took Freddie when he got fired.
@racy4--re the fun scene where the younger, hipper colleague tells the 30-year-old drug pusher to "give it a rest" with his pickup lines. All three of your suppositions are true; I'd say he's roughly 60% bored, 30% telling him it's not working, and 10% marking Peggy as his own territory (if anyone's).
I'm not sure but you may have missed a little bit of an idea that stretches across the last two--protecting Peggy in general, and protecting her in particular from this stupid intrusion into her creative process--especially since the lines are utterly non-creative.
Although in large groups or insecure pairings they may egg each other on, generally men who are hitting on every woman in sight without success can bore other men as much as they can bore their targets. Good for MM giving that truth an airing.
deepdish and hobocode--nice Fog puns.
Allegra-- I'm of the mind that the Hall of the Mountain King, which is full of trolls, I think, is the agency itself-- Sterling Cooper. Or maybe just Madison Avenue?
YEAH : It's MM DAY and Pot Roast Day. . .
I was in a FOG earlier (HANG-OVER, Mental Illness, A Trance, A Concussion, Amnesiac, On Tranquilizers (Milltowns), On LSD, In Unrequited Love, On the top of Mt. Everest or Mt. Fuji, Surfing in a Hurricaine. . .)
I MEANT epi 5 opens CHEZ STERLING!
Lovelovelove the Draper Daniels-Don Darper research and paralells!
MANY THANKS!
It's All too MADDELICIOUS! We must not stray too far away from the MADMENNING Crowd!
SILLY? YEAH BABY! CHEERS!
Hi all!
I know this thread is about Ep 5 but I wasn't sure where to put this information...
I just finished watching the previews for a new show called Community with Chevy Chase and Allison Brie who plays Trudy on MM is in this show. I hope she will continue on MM. Has anyone else see this preview?
A foggy day in London Town
It had me low, it had me down
I viewed the morning
With alarm
The British Museum
Had lost its charm
How long I wondered
Could this thing last?
But the age of miracles
Hadn't passed
For suddenly
I saw you there
And through foggy London Town
The sun was shining
Everywhere.
(George and Ira Gershwin)
@FancyNan: "Far From the MADding Crowd" - One of my all-time favorites.
@Maddicts: Speaking of bad dreams, last night I dreamed (drempt?) I was dating Ted Bundy and my family and friends were screaming at me to stop. I replied, "But he's so cute"!!! Glad I woke up from that one.
"The Fog" was one of John Carpenter's solid films but not my favorite. In order of preference:
1. The Thing
2. Halloween
3. Escape from New York
Glad to be in countdown....so ready to enjoy this weeks banquet of treats from master chef MW and his staff....foods for thoughts.
This will be immediately followed by the parsing of ingredients by lynx-eyed maddicts who will come up with new and exotic combinations...to the joy and delectation of all!
OHHH, TANQUERAY:"Take me Away"
My Mother, My Grandmother, My Great-grandmother, My Greatgreatgrandmother did it. . .Do Laundry? NO: DRINK HEAVILY. . .
ADVERTISING infests our every thought and move. Thanks ever-so-much: Madison Avenue. Thank-God we get a provocative and INTOXICATING DRAMA out of it.
. . .If you think it's BUTTER, it's probably NOT. . .
AHHH, "MADMEN-ticipation"!!! When I think of Carly Simon, I think of "ketchup" (chock-full of High Fructose Corn syrup BTW!!!). Who is doing a dis-service to whom?!
CLOROX: JUST DO IT. WHERE'S THE BEEF?!
Just for killing time…the minutes are ticking by…..
Over on Mad Men’s Facebook in the photo’s are magazine ads from the 60’s. You’ll laugh your socks off and also go “huh?” when you look at them. Just wanted to share. The ads are amazing. Also some never before seen photos of Don and Betty so be forewarned if you don’t want to speculate about what they mean . Wonderful glamorous shots of the two of them, though.
Hi FanNan.... well put as ever, and: msg for you on Ep4....
@joneric: I had a difficult time reading your blog name, so I'm sorry if it's misspelled. Thank-you for answering my "Pick-up Peggy" question. Very Good.
Who mentioned that Grandapa Gene said Betty was like Scarlett O'Hara?
Fog makes me think of "Gone With the Wind". Wonder if Don will tell Roger "Frankly my peer, I don't give a damn."?
Tomorrow is another day...
Scarlett was a drinker too.
Grandapa Gene talked about how Betty's mom did not like chubby's. Betty said once that the dance costumes for Sally's class were bad for chubbys. Wonder if Sally is going to be a chubby hater?
Just saw your post fifty-two. Very interesting.
The fog comes
on little cat feet.
It sits looking
over harbor and city
on silent haunches
and then moves on.
~ Carl Sandburg
Hubby said it could be a pot reference. Smoke/fog.
I am always wrong, so I will just enjoy the show.
Has anybody else noticed that a lot of the advertisers for SC are now defunct or insignificant now in the 21st Century?
Perhaps this is common knowledge, but I've just discovered that I can catch new episodes of MM at 7pm Pacific on the AMC HD channel (Comcast). For those who can't wait till 10, reset your DVR but please no spoilers before 11 pm Pacific.
“Let us go in; the fog is rising.”
---Emily Dickinson
Betty is going to have the baby this episode. I Know IT!
wow football all day and some baseball too,a little Tennis and now MadMen what fun.
duck!
Love it! Men get out of having to attend the birth. My hubby didn't get off that easy. That nurse was a reaper in "Dead Like Me".
Mother Ducker!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, what's Lisa Simpson doing working at that hospital?
Howdy Lucky! Good to see you! Lisa Simpson, I forgot she did that too.
There's your Duck!
I wonder if Betty is dreaming - she saw her dad....but Don is very much in the waiting room....
So, what do you make of the drunken teacher?
im glad i already had a child the sane way with an epidural and a c-section lol
I think the teacher is needing some Hamm.
Don is so ready to leave SC.
Nobody said "I just want to put it behind me" back then.
When I am a nurse, someone kick me if I say "Think of the beauty parlor."
Hey Chevy. You didn't think I'd let last week's Forum Nazis scare me off did you?
what a cool little dream sequence. guess lots have changed for women in labor. ha!
I noticed how quickly Betty tired to deflect blame for Sally onto the other student. They wound up not even dealing with the problem even after being called into the school.
Her dream sequence was odd. What's with the worm? Did she kill it?
No way Lucky, you are strong. I want whatever Betty got...that was a nice trip.
anyone have a feeling that something might go wrong witht the baby?
@Lucky!!! That word is a no-no!!! Heh, heh, heh.... :)
I do, but I am always wrong.
"You're an honest man, and I'm an expert".
Never have words been so wrong...
Grandpa Gene killed Nazi's. If blackface is okay, why would Nazi's be out of line?
I don't know about the rest of you but that entire scene with Betty in the D room (and the springtime scene)reminds me of "Rosemary's Baby". Something bad is gonna happen.
omigod!!!! shes having the baby! maybe she and don will actually be HAPPY!!!!!!!!
you think she's at phelps memorial hospital. i used to live in ossining ny!
i agree suze
Erie Betty sequences. Yeeesh. This has a six feet under feel, no?
I guess The Fog is a drug induced Fog.
IT'S A Boy! Congrats to all of you that predicted that! Happy Birthday Eugene!
Yep. That teacher is wanting some Hamm-er Time! Ewwwwww. So corny. (blushes)
no name yet? Jerk
peggy?! what are you doin?
Roger, got cooth? Sheesh.
Nooooooo PEgggy Nooooooooooooo
That injured black man in the last dream sequence was eerie.
As for Duck... Is he poaching now?
Same old Mother Ducker....why is he back? Peggy do not listen to that man! Kudos to Pete for walking out.
BETTY: His name is Eugene.
DON: We don't have to decide that now. (Translation: there's no way in hell I'm naming my kid Gene.)
ROGER: What's the baby's initials?
DON: No name yet. (Translation: there's no way in hell I'm naming my kid Gene.)
What are the chances that kid ends up being named Gene?
i can never decide if i hate or love pete.
Not to say I told you so, but I called the baby name!
@57 - that was a bad joke to Lucky. Harks back to last week. Sorry, I guess I'm the only one who got it.
That Baby is going to be named Adam
because Don " always liked the name"
I don't think color TV's were around in 1962--even in Manhattan. Was Pete dreaming?
Lucky, I can't tell on the name. Anyone know if Dad had say so about the birth certificate back then?
My husband came to me to do a spell check on our first daughter..the staff was letting him do the name thing.
The injured black guy was meant to be Medgar Evers in a dream full of dead people. The teacher told Don and Betty that Sally was wondering about Evers' murder.
"Every job has its ups and downs"... Especially when you're an elevator attendant, LOL. We are starting to get more insights from more black characters over these past several episodes. This theme is building momentum.
I love Duck telling Pete "Don't be a baby" right in front of Peggy. What an appropriate choice of words, given their history.
Duck's return--incredible!
I won! I WON AGAIN! STEPHANIEJo! I DID IT! I'm great & all-powerful! I chose Don as opening the show, & I WON Again! I'm great at this contest, & all you other posters suck at it! YAYYYYYYYYY!
I'm the one who said it would be a boy named Eugene! Wow! I'm on a roll!
I can't wait to see how Don and Betty each comprehend the messages spoken from their respective 'prophets'.
Can Don control his butt sniffing urges toward his daughter's teacher, for crying out loud?!
zabadu, I was being tongue in cheek. Sorry it did not come across. Lucky is cool and I read last weeks stuff. I was trying to say I had his back.
Hey, no one is arguing yet! YES!
Ok- I kind of like the Civil Rights movement weaving in this episode with the Medgar Evans murder (Sally asking about it, M.E in Betty's dream, and the discussion between Hollis and Pete).
Great episode so far.
Pete played Duck well at the Dinner.
Don, just fryin' up some hash and eggs for a healthy night time snack.
Ahhh, the early 60's...
Please, Don - have a heart to heart with Sally and say it's okay to be sad when you lose people close to you.
Well, that opportunity's long gone. *sigh*
Very funny Zabadu. I ain't a feared of no Forum Nazis! If they can talk about defeating Germans and Nazis on the show, then I can talk about beating them evil Forum Nazis in here.
By the way, this episode is weird.
Interesting that Don and Dennis did not openly acknowledge each other passing in the hall. Odder still that the sight of Dennis' wife seem to bother Don...
Pete is very open minded..i am surprised
do the right thing peggy
"it's not a good time" don draper classic. says it at least three times an episode.
Dennis wife did not have a baby with her It didn't work out
Peggy, please don't duck yourself.
I am really liking Pete this episode
Thanks @pi168. Good catch.
Yeah, the civl rights theme is gaining momentum all around. This is going to get good. And how stupid are those Admiral exces? According to them apparently all Black people aspire to be White. Sup wit dat?
The bloody black man with Betty's mom Ruth was Medgar Evers, who was shot to death for daring to desegrgate the University of Mississippi's law school, and who Sally was asking her teacher about.
"See what happens when people speak up?"
There were colour TV's in the US from 1954 on, but they were very expensive, as in $1,200 a pop - in 1954 dollars, yet! RCA was the main manufacturer of those sets until the early 60s, and the colour standard developed by RCA was the national standard until HDTV.
Thus endeth the history lesson.
And Peggy needs to go where she is respected. I just don't think where Duck is is that place. Why do I get the feeling that Don is going to get the sack? Or he's somehow going to leave Sterling Coo?
civil rights, women's rights... the 60s were exciting!
Dennis's wife didn't have a baby with him? What? They kept babies in nurseries then. He was probably taking her down the hall to see it.
@57/Lucky - Glad you both got it!
Did Dennis and his wife leave the hospital without a baby? I think so; so sad. That's why he didn't acknowledge Don as he was wheeling his wife out.
IF not in the D room, that dream still has a bad portent for the future.
Pete has glimpses of decency, but his overriding attribute is personal ambition. I think he is a very unlikable character, and will be until he evolves to an a-ha moment and does something dramatically selfless.
The first scene in MM was Don asking the Black waiter why he liked his brand of ciggs. Pete did not do so well with Hollis
Screw you Don! Eugene Scott Draper.
hahahaha! hand jobs.
Dennis not acknowledging Don could be that his baby didn't make it, or could it be that he was indeed a 'prophet' in a dream?
Adam Eugene Draper
Yay, Francine's back!
The producers must have received their 'language' certificates this week. B***Sh**, B***h, Hand ***!
What did I miss about Carla?
Might Sally harm the baby?
My god, what amazing direction - that last scene, when Betty stops in the dark hallway on the way to check on the baby, and gathers herself.
time for the sneak peaks and insides... good watching with you all!
What did I miss about Carla?
Carla goes home at night to be with her family
SHe isn't a "live in"
Here comes post-partum depression.
Next week looks like an exciting episode. "Bye bye Don"??
Sally isn't going to harm the baby.
Thank you pi168. I was afraid she had quit.
Say what you will about Duck, the man has pretty good instincts. He totally picked up on Pete and Peggy's "special" relationship while the rest of Sterling Cooper is totally in the dark.
When did breastfeeding become unpopular? I know it came back strong in the 80's but never knew how long it had been out of favor before then.
Did Dennis and his wife leave the hospital without a baby? I think so; so sad. That's why he didn't acknowledge Don as he was wheeling his wife out.
==
You may be right.:(
Love that cut-away of Sally rubbing her cheeks with the blood of that bruiser. So cinematic.
I pretty much LOL'ed when Don said "No One" when Betty asked who was on the phone.
Who is on the Don team? Sal, Peggy, Pete(maybe),and maybe Joan.
Unlike her brother, Sally had zero interest in the new baby. She was all about having Mom home, desperately seeking affection and attention. Expect more lashing out next episode. She assaulting a student and was asking her teacher about murder in this episode.
OMG, Betty is so cold she doesn't even rush to her screaming newborn. She stands in the hall waiting for him to stop crying.
I don't think Sal put his tip to the Porter on his documented trip expenses -- and his bill was a while $12.00 more than Don's. (!)
The emotion the prison guard had resonated with Don because of Don's real mother dying at birth. Well written episode.
Pete is gonna go on the war path, acting on the fear he feels due to his hand-slapping by the brass. He may seriously lash out towards Peggy. ("Leak" that she's negotiating with Duck.) Then, he'll be the one to start talks with Duck - like the slimeball he is.
Have we set up an official tally, y or n to Don / teacher hook up?
By the way - do we have a name for that teacher?
I'm with TakeFive--Dennis and his wife left the hospital without the baby (although I thought he said his name was "Gus")
@Task, to me that scene merely reminded us that Sal has secrets. What was the extra $12 for? Either we will never know or it will come out later -- and it will be delicious.
Are the ducks in Duck's new office new?
Instead of a Grey Goose we get a Grey Duck.
Good lord, that man can squeeze a penny until it screams. The english guy. Reminds me of someone I worked with at Jerico...made us flip adding machine tape and reuse it.
No, I believe they were in his office at SC. They looked familiar. He must have taken them with him.
Ducks office is new. In a different company.
Is that... Yeardley Smith in the fathers' waiting room -- the nurse who tells Dennis they've had shift change... ???
To midcenturymod: When I had my first child in 1965, everyone was breastfeeding. It was completely accepted in NYC. The nurses at the hospital expected mothers to breastfeed, encouraged and helped with it. La Leche League was going strong.
What's the deal with pregnant women and pineapple -- is that a no-no?
! Teacher is creepy
2. loved Don with Sally "not all surprises are bad"
3.I rememebr looking up at my mom in the hospital with my baby sister
4. We had a colour TV in 63...I loved that peacock
5.Peggy fingering the baby booties in front of don..waxing sadly or a calculated cue to him?
6. I hate Duck
7. Don wants to be a better man..I think.
"By jan001 on September 13, 2009 11:17 PM
Is that... Yeardley Smith in the fathers' waiting room -- the nurse who tells Dennis they've had shift change... ???"
Yes, that is Lisa Simpson.
She also was in a show called "Herman's Head". Weird coincidence.
Cute one @Ta. @Martini, it was definitely Dennis (nice icon there, too).
What's the deal with pregnant women and pineapple -- is that a no-no?
Perhaps she was refering to the laxitive effect of the fruit..not something you want while having to push...though she did mention giving her an enima..
@ Lucky Strike
Two theories exist on pregnancy and pineapple:
1. Softens the cervix (early delivery)
2. Can induce a spontaneous abortion.
Thanks, 60s. Guess that was just Betty being her usual self then-can't even smile at her kids, far less breastfeed them. Though I expect NYC was ahead of the trend on that.
When I had my first child in 1965, everyone was breastfeeding. It was completely accepted in NYC
mommy said it was considered "low class" to breast feed LOL of course she was from the SOuth...so Yankees and WHite trash breast fed I guess JKJK
ChiGreg, you're right about Pete but that behaviour will make you survive in a darwinist craphole that is SC.
I felt really bad for Betty when she said "he's never where he is supposed to be " while she was under the influence...
as for the scene at the end, I think she was just tired and overwhelmed. Its her third time going through this and even though she accept her role as housewife, she's not completely happy with it.
Glad childbirth isn't the big medical deal now that it was then. It was treated like a medical intervention rather than a perfectly natural event. Needlessly unpleasant for the mother then.
Once again guys, thanks for clearing something up for me. I wondered why the other dad did not acknowledge Don in the hall and ask him about his wife and baby. Looks like something happened and they lost their baby. Very sad.
I loathe the head English dude. When he started going on about expenses, I wanted to scream! His face also makes me want to barf. And his gay little assistant is not much better – so prissy!
Could Bobby have been ignored any more in this episode! He was trying to meet the baby and they just told him to be careful and shooed him out. All these kids are just starving for attention.
Next week’s preview looks juicy.
"Our worst fears lie in anticipation." Don ought to know.
Why did the teacher sound so sexy? Are we being set up?
"you're a house cat, lots of importance (or something like that) and nothing to do" = Betty's own dream of "I'm just a housewife" as spoken through Gene??
Was the silk worm / caterpillar her baby?
Drunk teacher throwing herself at Don, once again he just waits for them to land in his lap....
But I wonder if Don will be hot for teacher after Peggy capped off his reality check with "you have everything and so much of it"
If SC finds out that Peggy's been talking to Duck, they'll only try to keep her. I was surprised she didn't tell Don she'd had an offer. I'm glad Duck has resurfaced, he is a smart guy, more forward thinking than Burt, Roger and Don. Lane Pryce is also more astute than those three about the "time's are a changin". Dylan already sang that, but those boys are still clueless. Well, maybe Don has a clue.
Has anyone determined the date of this episode? Just curious because I was born in June of '63. Betty told the teacher that it had been about 2 weeks since her Dad died which could put the baby's birth date on or around 6/30...
Man..... a lot of great tidbit with Dennis in the waiting room. the parallels to Don's dad and Don's birth. Dennis to Don: "You are an honest man". the drifter carves the hobo code in the post meaning a dishonest man lives here after Don's Dad stiffs him.
Dennis did not look Don in the eye because he (Dennis) already broke his promise to be a better man.
Duck had those same wall ducks at Sterling Coop.
Yep, that was Yeardley Smith playing the desk nurse looking after the husbands.
57Chevy -Grandpa Gene killed Nazi's. If blackface is okay, why would Nazi's be out of line?
No, he fought the Huns in WWI.
I don't know whether the teacher sounded sexy but when she told Don on the phone that she was embarrassing herself, and he replied, "No, you're fine", I swear the man was almost purring.
@ Martini Up: must be after June 12, as that is the day Medgar Evers was murdered.
I love this blog- I read it religiously. Does anyone know what the "halfway between here and the Heberdes..." line was about?
So baby boy X Draper's birthday is June 19 or 20 (Medgar Evers funeral playing on the waiting room TV.)
Lots of forward movement in this episode. Betty is going to go through a metamorposis just like the caterpillar becomes the butterfly. The women's movement is coming her way. Peggy mentioned the Equal Opportunity Act. Pete is seeing black people in a more advanced way than the rest of the shop. Of course he's still Pete and therefore has a weird way of relating to ANYONE.
I hope those of you who dislike Betty felt at least a little sympathy for her childbirth ordeal. My goodness, I can't imagine, and my hat is off to those of you who did just that. I have had three children--the first one was born via natural childbirth (terrible pain), and then a set of twins via C-section (it was a horrible pregnancy, including an emergency airlift to a high risk hospital, pneumonia, and bed rest for a month) and I still think I had a better experience than Betty by having my husband there through it all. When Betty had to leave Don at the hospital, I wanted to cry for her. To endure that all on your own--terrifying.
@MartiniUp - probably closer to the day Medgar Evers died - I'd say it's around the 15th of June.
@Pink63, I don't think we've established that the Brit's assistant is gay, unless of course you meant "gay" in a pejorative way.
NeverNotTasty , nice catch with the caterpillar symbolism. They did the same thing in The Sopranos.
It was so good to see Duck again. I know he is hard to love but man he's a great character... and still the same Duck.
And I'm glad we got a little more Gene this episode... he went on to his great rewards just as I was starting to like him.
Take One.......It is 1962 not 1963. We got our first color TV in 1963, so yes, they were around. The first color program I can remember was Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color which aired on Sunday nights.
Is it me or is this season VERY slow?? And none of the prob's/issues from season 2 are being resolved. And when already, is someone going to say something about Betty's baby maybe not being Dons????? It is driving me insane...is it dons or not?? and why hasnt don said anything if it's not his???? I'm really wishing that some things can be tied up so I can focus on the things going on this season.
What equal pay law is Peggy talking about?
"You're a house cat. You're very important and you have little to do." Great description of Betty!
I can't see Don having an affair with someone so close to home. Besides, Betty is going to go into a depression and he'll have his hands full. Roger appears to be playing games with him too...
As for the traumatic birth scene - my mothers only memory of having me was getting the sedative and saying "I can't breathe". She was intubated and I was born by cesarean. It was 1961. You should see the lovely vertical scar she has. Would make you swear off having kids.
Oh, and I loved seeing our first meeting of Pete and Peggy since the season finale... it's obvious that they despise each other...
By childof60s on September 13, 2009 11:40 PM
I can remember was Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color which aired on Sunday nights
Ohhh and tinker bell would fly in and touch the castle and it would turn color..
@Child of 60s - the year is 1963, we're coming up on the assassination of JFK.
@MMFan - you need to go back and read old threads. It is Don's baby.
Couple of fun factoids as I'm re-watching:
For art direction fans, in the waiting room scene Don is half-surrounded by stripes while he's talking about jail stripes (cigarette machine, drapes, tie).
Second actor from Admiral Television scene with Pete was the second guy from the downsizing scenes in the movie "Office Space."
@child, we are in 1963.
@fifty-two: Unites States Equal Pay Act of 1963
Do we know why Duck left SC?
Go Peggy. Don says "What do you want me to say?" and she answers "I don't think I could have been any clearer." Then she sarcastically invites Pete to the lady's room with her.
She's so isolated, but so smart. You have to root for her.
FOG
Betty's coming out of it...a little more clarity and strength even if she has to muster it in the dark hallway at night!
Don's lost in his fog with honesty/father issues.
The Dennis baby vanished in the fog.
Teacher called Don from her drunken fog.
Sally foggy up in the night with her Dad.
Brits penny pinching fogging up what's important.
Peggy stuck in the pre women'-lib fog.
Admiral Clients and SC higher ups in a clueless fog.
Pete in an moneymaking/morality fog.
@Scotch&Soda Nice catch on the hobo code! Don doesn't want to be the dishonest man he is.....but those lies got him everything he has today.
@amybett: Nice analysis!
amybett, all good points. and thanks!
Kundos amybett! And thank you.
The teacher would have been cast as a plain school marm if Don's character was not to be tempted by her. Pathetic how she drunk dials one of her student's parents. She probably hung up on Betty numerous times before Don came home from work, or estimated his arrival from the city with a train schedule she picked up after school.
Waiting for the previews again. I hope I get it this time. On the other hand, not having a clue makes for a good watch.
@amybett, don't forget London Fog.
Did Done tear out the ad for work reference, or is that a clue to his passion for cars and car tinkering?
What women went through during labor and childbirth in the sixties makes me cringe. Betty was in pain and the nurse gives her a shave and an anema. Then she gets drugged and in a twilight sleep- so she really isn't awake to know what's going on with the birth. To top it off she had to go through it all alone. She didn't even know that she had a boy! Things were really different when I had my kids in the eighties.
Betty's mother shown for the first time!
"I left my lunch pail on the bus and I'm having a baby" ?
Was that supposed to be Medgar Evers Betty's Mom was with at the table?
Ok Betty stuff later, which was great and so much to go into, but as much as Betty will probably dominate here, hopefully she will not wash out the rest of the talk, let's start with the other things of interest:
Thought it was interesting, the teacher saying to Don, Sally needs more attenion. Obviously he doesn't have the relationship with her now that he did last year. (You could also substitute any female in Don's life probably regarding her remark). But in the hospital with the other guy, he says he doesn't throw the ball around with Bobby enough. Both kids he doesn't show enough attention. Yet in a short time, Gene did with both of them. So later Don bonds over nighttime cooking with Sally. Yet Betty is unexpectedly bonding immediately with "Gene".
Don getting up and leaving the Sterling Coo meeting was interesting as well. It's exactly symbolic of what he does. Remember when he said to the Madison Square Garden guy, if you don't like the question change the subject? That's what Don does often. When he doesn't like something in life, he runs off like it's not really happening. (to Peggy: This never happened). And again he does it here, he doesn't like it, and just leaves.
It's about more than just leaving. It's that struggle he has about fighting off aspects of his own self. So far he is doing well with Betty. But here with work, he doesn't do well and reverts to leaving. Ultimatley he's both succeeding and failing in that fight against his own self.
Don answering Bridge on the River Kwai: "I've seen everything". Other than fun with lines re Peggy, it also shows he paid attention to her, unlike everyone with Patio.
How about the guard saying to Don about what if something happens to her, how could I love that child. Basically Don's story, being told right to his face. Oh man.
What I've felt has been one of the most importaing things: In the end, walking in the house with the baby, Don puts his arm around the small of Betty's back walking in. For the 3rd episode in a row, in the end of each episode, Don is giving tender affection to Betty.
I think Pete is really seeing the potiential in advertising in Ebony magazine & increase sales among the afrian-american consumer. But I also feel its more for his ambition & to make his co-head Ken look uninterested in his job.
Good for Peggy, she's aware of what's going on & taking a stand. After all, she was the one who had the balls to ask Roger for Freddie's old office.
Don was very attentive to Betty. Of course he did lie about who was on the phone. And what's the deal with Sally's teacher? Was it me or did anyone else notice her body language when she was talking to Don?
As for Betty, I see post-pardeum depression in her future mixed with a touch of hallucations.....or was it the med's talking?
Couple of dates:
Equal Pay Act passed on June 10, 1963
Medger Evers killed on June 12th, funeral June 19th.
I think that Betty's delay in going to the baby's room is because it was her father's room.
That was so funny with the 11cent and 38 cent tips etc. That seems pretty cheap to me even then for some Mad Men high rollers. Though I do remember actually being able to buy something with a nickel when I was a kid.
About the Hebrides reference: Mendelssohn wrote an overture about them that became known as "Fingal's Cave," and when he visited the islands, his traveling companion noted that the islands, "brew nothing but whiskey, fog, and foul weather"
Automobile question: Was the make of car in the magazine ad that Don tore out a 1963 Pontiac? Maybe someone got a screen shot? Is our boy looking to buy a new car?
My son was born in Feb 1966 and breast feeding was not only acceptable, but encouraged. That was in Cleveland, Ohio.
Sally's teacher was tipsy on the telephone!
DOUBLE-DON: I totally agree with your statement: it's obvious that they despise each other...
Pete approached her like they had already been in a agrument & it continued on to the office.
What happened to the Dennis baby? That is the question!
The nurse came out previously and told the prison guard that he had a healthy baby boy. Meanwhile, Betty's having dreams of dead people and there's a bad aura all around....was it Betty's baby who died? Did the nurse give Betty the Dennis baby because they liked her better than the prison guard (he was rude to the nurse in the waiting room because they weren't giving him updates)? Two baby boys, and no indication that something was wrong with the Dennis baby...
Teacher's name is Suzanne Farrell (Miss Farrell).
HIGH!?
-ChiGreg: the foxy teacher's name is Suzanne Farrell. Why was she drinking outta the same style of glassware they use at SC/PP&L? Was that semi-round "rocks" tumbler s'thing that was very prominent/popular in 1963? I was a bartender: I like to KNOW these things. Definitely some unstarted/unfinished biz betwixt Don and Maypole-teacher. MMM.
Betty's morphine "FOG" was so anti-climactic; I'd imagined s'thing much more cataclysmic and exciting!? GLAD "Eugene" Draper is healthy!!! NO BREAST MILK: was this pre-Dr. Spock?! Thank-God Betts finally deigned to go to her shrieking son at the end.
Maybe the "Fog" is what Pryce senses "as a stranger in a strange land. . .-s'thing is going on" : gestating/brewing, a climate/current of impending change ala Civil Rights, proto-Feminism, the NOW Generation, Viet Nam ETC. Hmmm.
Pete to Hollis: " a car, a house, a TV: that's the American Dream"!!!??? TRAGIC.
We do need to rethink PEGGY. Why did she fool around w/ Pete on her first day
at SC knowing he was soon to be married. . .
She may be much worldlier than we'd previously considered?! Pete says to her in epi 5:"Your decisions affect me." She gives him a look filled w/ daggers and stalks off. A lot of delish and weighty stuff coming up with those two!?
MELBA TOAST: Gal-Pal: you're the coolest! XXX. Where are you on this board tonite?! See you soon. . .!
Duck, Duck, GOOSE!!!
YUMMY:ALL of it!
By childof60s on September 13, 2009 11:40 PM
I can remember was Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color which aired on Sunday nights
Ohhh and tinker bell would fly in and touch the castle and it would turn color..
====
and don't forget the intro on NBC: "This NBC presenation is being brought to you in living color..." upon which you'd see the NBC peacock's tail feathers in the spectrum of colors.
@AlCat14, I have been wondering about all the potential baby switches that could have happened from that time period, especially with the drugging and non-witnessing fathers. It seemed like Betty was getting the Francis Farmer treatment in that operating room.
Zabadu....I meant to say it is 1963 not 1962. Hence me explaining how I knew color TV was around in 1963. Because as I said, we got our first color set in 1963. No need to be rude and tell me to go watch previous episodes. I have watched MM since the first show aired. Please forgive my typo, I guess we can't all be perfect.
I think the Hebrides reference is also a nod to Virginia Wolfe "To the Lighthouse." Betty straddles bits of both Mrs. Ramsay and Lily Briscoe (the matron and the unsatisfied artist), while Don is a fair Mr. Ramsay.
Even the shape of the novel "To the Lighthouse"--two intensive Hebrides trips bridged by a 10-year interlude, seems reinforced by the hospital scene, with Don and Betty enacting their separate visions divided by a long corridor.
Pineapple is suppsed to induce labor. Or so I have heard.
@child of 60s: The "go back and read old threads was not addressed to you, it was addressed to MMFan. I'm sorry if it was confusing. MMFan was asking if it was Don's baby.
Baby switching? Come on guys, this isn't Dallas or All My Children.
@ta-town girl - Thank you for the Mendelssohn reference...I guess the SC boys can expect more 'fog & foul weather' ahead
@AlCat14- I don't think there was a baby switch, because Dennis was able to look at his baby in the nursery first, although it is really strange that the newborn was healthy, than apparently...not healthy...
@Greg - I completely agree, Betty did seem to bond with little Eugene, a very unexpected twist, even if she did see her deceased parents during the birth and somehow connect them all together...
Regarding breast feeding. I was born in 1962 and was breast fed, but my mom says all the other women in her ward were planning to use formula. She attributes this to a not uncommon lag in such fashions between classes. Formula feeding was definitely in during the 30s and 40s, especially among middle and upper middle class women, who a generation earlier might have had a wet nurse. So while my well educated and middle class mom was following the trend back to breast feeding in the early 1960s, the other mothers in the ward who were working class were following what they thought was the well-to-do way.
Any thing could have happened to the other infant. I agree that something is wrong; he avoided Don in the hall as Dennis passed by with Pam.
Baby switching: But come on zabadu, how would you explain all those episodes of 'Oprah'?
I'm kidding, for cryin' out loud!
I'm amazed that everyone has overlooked the punch line of this episode which is filled with irony: "Admiral is not interested in becoming a colored television company". As a "triple B" (Black Baby Boomer) I can remember very clearly when my family got a large TV/stereo combination delivered - Nov. 23, 1963 (day after JFK assasination). It was a Black & White Admiral. That TV became our portal to the 60's. I saw both Kennedy funerals, Martin Lther King funeral, Several space flights (including apollo 11) , Johnson announcing he wouldn't run, Chicago convention, student and race riots all on that TV set.
Also there was one other racial dynamic that people overlooked. That was the elevator scene where the black operator said he owned an RCA. There were several brand names that tended to sell better in black commnities (still do). Many middle class blacks are very aware of this and go out of their way NOT to buy what they know other blacks are buying for the sake of status.and/or refusing to be pigeon-holed. That was the key to the underlying tension in the elevator conversation.
Take Five - I didn't catch that, that the teacher's name was Suzanne Farrell.The real Suzanne Farrell is a famous ballerina, danced for New York City Ballet. I'm enough of a ballet fan to remember that her real name was Roberta Sue Flicker. Like Don, she also went from a country-type name to a more, say, worldly one.
By MadMenSuze on September 14, 2009 12:12 AM
I remember the peacock, loved him. Tinkerbell and the castle too.......aaaah brings back good memories doesn't it.
@NeverNotTasty: Great observation, especially when you consider that our introduction to Ms. Farrell is of her dancing, albeit around a maypole.
Betty squashed the caterpillar. There isn’t going to be a butterfly. The look on her face was one of determination. I don’t know what that would mean in a dream but surely the caterpillar represents something. Maybe that she hates her life and wants a new one.
My first baby was born in 1966 and I was discouraged from breastfeeding 100%. She was born in Fairfield County, Connecticut.
My uncle had a color tv in the late 50's . He joked to my dad about getting to watch the Rosebowl Parade and game in color.
By zabadu on September 14, 2009 12:18 AM
My mistake....I misread your post.
I wonder how the Admiral company feels being portrayed as racist even if it was only two executives and 50 years ago. That just can't have felt good.
The ad that Don rips out of the magazine was an ad for a 1963 Pontiac Grand Prix, I was waiting for a reference to it again in the show, but they did not. The Pontiac ads from that time until about the early 70's were really nice painted ads done by an artist name Fitzpatrick.
Speaking of color productions, a very big deal was made out of "Batman" -- it aired twice a week and I think the airing shown the second time that week was in color.
@sab4ever: She squashed it? That's what happens when I do laundry while watching.
I remember those fake color tvs from the sixties. People put some kind of see through sheet of plastic on the front of a black and white tv. It was some kind of diffraction grating and it would give a rainbow effect of color giving the illusion of having a color tv.
I don't think we had a color tv in our house until the early seventies. Imagine watching Batman in black in white.
Peggy stand s for all that was the Women’s Movement, Women’s Liberation, & Feminism – from the moment she took Joan’s advice & got the birth control pills.
Well, w/ Carla gone, & Gene (really gone), we finally get neighbor, Francine, again. Let’s hope she doesn’t start smoking again in the nursery.
How great a line was Betty calling for Don, & then asking the nurse, “Have you been with him?” I did a “spit take” of diet root beer all over my LR rug. Thanks to the MM writers.
And when is someone in that office going to bring-up that they have tickets to the Broadway show of “How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying”. In my opinion, Coop never has enuf to do, to say, etc.
Quack! Quack! For everyone who was looking for Duck!
@KBF &
StephanieJo: Bobby is talking!!!!!!!!!!!! (Oh no. Now they’ll have to pay that child actor more than scale.)
If Betty doesn’t want that 25 mg of Demerol, can I take it?
@wasthere: I guess Philadelphia didn’t want Duck after all.
@prl168: I’m the one who said the baby would be a boy & named Eugene Adam.
@Take5: I had the same reaction when Pete asked Hollis about having a color TV. I was like, in 1963? Even my rich friends didn’t have a color TV. Then I saw the elevator scene again, & noticed white man Pete, asking black man Hollis, questions, & asking, “Color?
@ Tatowngirl: Wow. I didn’t pick-up on Duck saying to Pete, “Don’t be a baby!” w/ both Peggy & Pete being there.
@ChiGreg: Your post was really special. I read it 3 times. Thank-you.
@TexRex: I thought that was weird, too, Dennis & Don only nodding in the hall. Dennis’ wife kinds of looks like Peggy, but I see that everyone is beginning to say the couple left w/out a baby. Changeling? Something? Anybody? Well, I’m sure the posters will have this mystery resolved by Thursday.
@SallyDraper: “Not a good time.” Yes, I agree. That does seem to be Don’s theme in life.
@bettymurielsartre: Okay, where have you been? LAURIE B. & I have been frantic/ worry, & you just show-up here to post for Episode 5? Oh, & thanks for Betty’s dream analysis. I did not pick-up that the injured man w/ Betty’s mom was Medgar Evans.
@57Chevy: A friend of mine always recites that Carl Sandburg poem about Chicago, because he says it reminds him of me. I loved reading it here. Thanks.
@DeepDish: How lovely to read a line of Emily Dickinson here. She is a very special poet for me. Thanks.
@zabadu: Thanks for making that BOLD line. I told you we need you pre-show.
@zabadu: And here’s the teacher calling the Draper home, talking to Don: “I don’t even know why I called.” (‘Except that your rear end looks great in a Brooks Brother suit.’)
@sab4ever: Okay, you were right about the baby being born in tonight’s episode, but I predicted it would be a boy, & I predicted he would be named Eugene. Also, I predicted Don would open the first scene of the episode, & I’ve been correct on that the last 3 times out! So there.
@Lucky Strike: I thought the one nurse was played by the actress that was the mom on “That 70s Show”.
@57: Great line about becoming a nurse. My niece just graduated, so Ill-use it on her.
@MadMenSuze: What parts remind you of “Rosemary’s Baby”?
@pil168: Are you the one who wrote “Nooooooo, Betty”, when she had sex w/ the guy in the storeroom?
@Scotch&Soda: Ah, I believe, as I’ve stated above, I came-up w/ the name “Eugene Adam” first.
I used to love the promo's for TV programs back then...."and now Bewitched...in color!!"
What does it mean about Don's character as a person that he spends a lot of time going to see all the movies? I don't think we've ever seen him doing it, but even in the early 1960's that's a few hours a week. Professionally, he turns in the receipts; it's advertising research. Still, does he go alone? Does he take notes while he's there, "wasting" more SC paper and pencils...?
Cleopatra with Liz Taylor was released late July 1963 and was a huge worldwide phenomenon. A story of intrigue and infidelity, a queen who was "very important with nothing to do." A few episodes from now on MM would be great time to get some specifics on how the Drapers watch a movie (LOL).
Oh my gosh, what a great episode. I LOVE that they portrayed childbirth during that era. You always hear about women being knocked out while the men chain smoke in the waiting room. It was great to see what it was like. Makes you wonder when the women stood up for themselves and decided to do it differently.
I believe formula-feeding became big in the 50's when "science" was considered the better way to do things.
My TV is too small... I was trying to see the expression on the fave of the guy's wife in the wheelchair to figure out if she looked sad. I can't see it clearly enough.
It's so cool to see the equal rights and women's rights stuff heating up. Man, it was a white man's world back then.
Regarding Mr. and Mrs. Dennis Hobart's baby -- the nurse who appeared in the waitingroom and said she would keep Mr. Hobart updated "religiously"-- (I thought that strange terminolog). This was after she had had just told him -- after a whole day in the waiting room -- that it was a breach birth, and that a specialist had been called in. Then she got on his case about needing "his permission." She didn't explain permission for what, and never gave him any more info regarding the specialist, the dangers of a breach birth. etc. And then he got the news that his baby was doing" fine." Possibly some medical mal-practice there in not having the baby in intensive care? I also noted that she mentioned there had just been a "shift change." And one might say that critical medical information has been known to go home with the shift that's leaving.
Hey anyone. I can't remember what Don said to Peggy when she visited him in his office...Something like "Success is about standing out, not fitting in." Is that right? Theirs always so many wonderful lines that I forget them by the end...And the ritual Old Fashioned during the show seems to help in the process of forgetfulness too.
I checked with my tivo several times, and Dennis and his wife are definitely smiling when they are coming down the hall, but when Dennis sees Don the smile leaves his face and he puts his head down and snubs Don.
I think this rules out something happening to the baby, or they wouldn't be smiling at the start. Could it refer to the things that Betty was saying while in her 'fog' and how Dennis' wife could have told him. You know, nurses gossiping and all? Or it could be that as someone said earlier, Dennis had already broken his promise to Don and felt guilty. But anyway, let's please put the dead baby theory to bed!
Did anyone notice in Betty's dream where she is walking into her house that the kitchen set is completely flipped?
@Take five: most likely permission for a caesarean. I still don't see how they would come out and tell him he had a healthy baby and then it would die. Full term babies born under those circumstances rarely die. Even then.
AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO IS TIRED OF EXPLAINING WHY IT'S DON BABY AND NOT THE STRANGER'S IN THE BAR?
i don't mean to be mean, i'm sure there are a lot of things i'm slow to get. BUT PREGNANT WOMEN CAN'T GET PREGNANT. i apologize if i'm being rude, i'm just getting frustrated.
do people think that scene in the bar was a flashback?
it clearly wasn't. that's not an opinion is a fact.
Maybe while the two men were expectant fathers they were on even ground. After the births, class issues kicked in. Just a thought.
@miltonzdad....thank you! I agree that I think it was more Dennis playing down that he did all that talking to Don because he's supposed to be a tough prison guard. I thought they were both smiling to, on their way to the nursery.
I loved the Betty angle. I had questioned if they'd have her have the baby, not for cheesy soap opera reasons, no, but because I just thought it would tie the Betty character down. I saw her as starting to come out of her shell at the end of last season, and I didn't think the character could expand like they started with her. The late blooming of Betty is so interesting so I figured it'd stifle her character. But check this out:
Betty is loopy on drugs. Yet it seems she's confessing the truth. Remember last year she told the Doc it's a bad time. She told Francine the same thing. They did some things to make us question is she trying to undermine her own self. So here a little drugged up, some things happen. She says in labor, "I don't want to be here". Then you see Gene with the bloody mop. You think of that quick shot of Sally smearing blood on her face during the teacher telling what happened at the water fountain. You think of the very first shot to open this season.
Then what happens...
At what appears to either be the brink, or simply a drug infused nothingness, she sees Daddy. He tells her she's like a housecat, you're very important and have little to do. On the surface of course it's that Mad Men demeaning yet interesting thing. We all probably focused on the "little to do" part. But, Betty focused on the word important. For the first time since we've known her, she has been told with veracity she is in fact important.
That's what turns her around. She's finally told she's important with meaning, even if in a roundabout way. She's important. And since then, she's completely reversed and everything is not only ok, but, opposite now. Baby born ok, we're all good. Betty is important.
Now, she takes on the responsability she formerly didn't want now that she's been emotionally through one simple phrase, that finally isn't fake and finally has meaning, and she's built up. Her husband never gave her that emotional support. No man in her life ever gave her what she really needed all these years deeper than simple attention. She now feels important. Everything now ends up ok.
Ahh but just when you think it's all good think again. Did you pay attention to the very last scene, how Betty hesitates to get out of bed, sighs, slinks down the hall and just stops, her head lowers, most importantly the gloomy music starts and she sighs again before going to to mother duty....? It's not exhaustion....
I'm seeing a very Don thing in her. It's all good when you make the decision, but do you have trouble immediately after your decision? Don takes on the responsibility of being better. He's having trouble. She takes on the responsibility of being better, and seemingly is already having trouble.
So I thought the baby angle would stifle her character. But no, it's actually way opened her character up, just in a different way than you'd think.
How do people not love this season?
What was the song playing during Betty's dreams and at the end?
@JLH: Bless your little heart. You are my buddy forever now.
TA-TOWN GIRL and joneiric: your scholarship is rigorous and much appreciated concerning the "Hebrides" reference. EN POINTE!
I do not notice DON wearing a wedding band. Please advise!?
Gonna now have a wee snack of corned beef hash w/ muddled eggs. The POWER of suggestion is truly an awesome THANG!
C/O nxt wks Preview: I am MAD-FAN-tasizing that the visiting PP&L CEO will be portrayed by Jude Law. PLEASE!
CHEERS!
@fancynancy: Isn't the CEO Mr. Sheffield from the Nanny?
Caught on re=view: Betty's mom's ghost saying "See what happens when people speak up? Be happy with what you have..." while standing over the murdered ghost of Medgar Evers (who was the start of people no longer being happy with what they have, and speaking up plenty). Almost ham-handed on a second viewing, but well set up.
I really think this episode reiterated the writing skills of the writers on this show. I wasn't all that impressed with the first couple of episodes, but it seems like they have introduced a ceratin 'abstract' side to the show, with Betty's hallucinations and such. You really are allowed the interpretation of the scene when it's left open to the audience. I absolutely loved the scene where Betty is floating through suburbia and encloses her hand on the silk worm. Beautiful.
@jlh, it's ok, chill. There could be some first time posters to the site. I'm only a newcomer since Friday night (don't laugh, my plans fell through...) Anyway, I didn't bother reading the thousands of previous posts, because it can get tedious, so my first comment was swiftly criticized for lack of 'research'.
I also noticed that most of you seem to be Baby Boomers with a lot in common (me, 1967 = genX screw up). Just let it go...
Our postings don't hurt the west coast viewers do they? This just occured to me.
G, I think your opinions are just as good as many of us. I have predicted so many wrong things that I just shrugg it off and carry on. And...what if you are right?
@joneiric: Well stated about the Medgar Evers scene! I think that the same irony applies to Don's discussion with Peggy about her salary--isn't he telling her essentially to be happy with what she has, and isn't that what the women's movement set about taking to task?
my mom had me in 1955, breastfed me and was considered strange....most women she knew in the hospital and outside did not breastfeed
very interesting episode.....thought that Peggy would tell Don about Duck's advances
dream sequence was masterful
Well I can't stay up all night. But every time I go off and come back there are 20 or 30 more posts to read. It's so great to see that so many more people have shown up and signed in! All of this is so exciting to read . All of you have a great night!
HUGS
By gidget on September 14, 2009 12:34 AM
The color TV we had in 1963 was a regular color TV. No see through sheet of plastic put over the screen of a black and white TV......WHAT?! It was a Zentih and lasted for many many years. I have never heard of what you are talking about.
thanks zabadu
i was so afraid someone was going to call me a nazi
Will someone read my question/comment? speters1 is my name...Thanks.
jlh no one would do that in a hurtful way. I am sorry if you were offended.
My grandparents had a real color TV in 1963. First one on the block, neighbors flocked over to see what few shows were in color.
Ha! Well, I guess you grew up in a more affluent area than I did.
The tv with that contraption on it looked pretty terrible BTW.
@Greg Don is doing well on the home front...after he put his hand on Betty's back she even kissed Sally on the head!
But how will Don resolve his "work tantrums"? The Brits aren't giving him the leeway he's used to...
Betty in the hall not exhaustion? I have to say from my experience that it very easily could be. Especially after that horrific 60's labor!
@mmbhm Agreed, that perhaps Betty hesitated because her father was in that room just a week or so ago.
Hollis and Peggy reached out so clearly but no one listened closely enough ..
@fannan yes the "climate/current of change" or "fog of the future" is rolling in! It's so close we can taste it!!
@frankmar14 fascinating insight on the TV sets and the things you experienced while watching your TV.
@G You and I may be the only Gen-Xers on the board, so please please please stick around!
Love the relationship between Don and Peggy, and the fact that there's nothing sexual about it is refreshing. They can be real with each other because they know each other's junk, and because of that we are afforded insight in to both characters.
How about Hollis' line "All jobs have their ups and downs". There's the obvious elevator reference but then the inferred one: people like Pete are one of the "downs" of Hollis' job. At the same time, I think there are some decent underpinnings to Pete and his racial views. He was obviously turned off by Roger's serenade at the country club, and today when the Admiral guy asked if integrating the ad was illegal (LOL) Pete gave him an obvious "you're an idiot" look. I think Pete's offended by racism but doesn't know how to show it.
Pete to Peggy: "Your decisions affect me. " And how!
I agree that at first Betty bonded w/ the baby, (who I'll bet they call Scott), but that's only until that first midnight feeding.
Still very perplexed about Dennis' behavior in the hall pushing the wife, but I tend to agree that either he already screwed up being a better man or he found out that he was wrong calling Don an honest man through nurse chatter. And how about that "you ever throw the ball around?" line to Don? ouch.
Anybody out there think Don and the teacher will be making a road trip in that car from the magazine ad any time soon? After all she does say "it's going to be a beautiful summer."
speters1, if I can hang in there I will try. It is my third time tonight and I may have to snooze. I know someone out there knows.
speters1 wants to know what Don said to Peggy when she visited him in his office...Something like "Success is about standing out, not fitting in."
Anyone?
Betty asking the nurse if she had been with Don. Pretty funny!
And how about Betty's mom telling her to shut her mouth or she'd catch flies. Who is she? Ruth Clampett Hofstadt?
@G: I am a Gen-Xer, too ('72), and I love that there are more of you. Please don't go!
speters,
I agree with you. This episode was better than the previous ones this season.
I think it was very David Chase-esc. The use of the dream sequences was pretty common in the Sopranos created by David Chase. Matt Weiner learned plenty from him.
I like where things are not so obvious and you have to think about them. I also enjoy the comments I read here. The posters here are pretty sharp.
Yes, there certainly are other explanations as to Mr. Hobart's "snub" of Don (other than their baby died, so we'll put that one to rest). 57Chevy, I like your theory about the waiting room made the men equal, but after that maybe the class consciousness did make Mr. Hobart act different -- and maybe the self-consciousness of having opened up to Don they way he did. I don't think he would have had time to have broken the vow yet, though. All good, plausible theories which make me feel a whole lot better. Thank you forum!!!
I'm a newbie here, glad to find lots of avid MM fans.
In the opening scene the teacher purposefully puts Betty's chair further away -forcing Betty to drag it back towards Don. Teacher mentions she's glad to see them both - as if she expected only one of them ... odd.
Nice to see that Pete is actually working for a change and not relying on his family name.
Peggy could have nailed her raise request by mentioning Duck - it's not like she's afraid Don would fire her. Agreeing to meet with Duck shows she's not blindly loyal to SC and is smart enough to look out for herself. Hope she's not left with the short end of the stick.
I'm a newbie here, glad to find lots of avid MM fans.
In the opening scene the teacher purposefully puts Betty's chair further away -forcing Betty to drag it back towards Don. Teacher mentions she's glad to see them both - as if she expected only one of them ... odd.
Nice to see that Pete is actually working for a change and not relying on his family name.
Peggy could have nailed her raise request by mentioning Duck - it's not like she's afraid Don would fire her. Agreeing to meet with Duck shows she's not blindly loyal to SC and is smart enough to look out for herself. Hope she's not left with the short end of the stick.
Overall, I thought this was one of if not the most boring episodes of the series so far.
I've latched onto a character and as long as she's in the show, through thick and thin I will likely keep on watching, to see what happens to her.
Peg o' my heart. . .
I hope we get to see and hear more from little Bobby Draper this season (having a catch with Dad). I was afraid he would end up becoming like one of those silent young Partridge Family siblings.
howdy y'all Another great episode with something for eveyone in it(except for the haters)
Where's Don have you seen him, have you been with him?
Those nurses were right out of Nurse Fletcher's LPN school. Phelps hospital was built in 1957 and is in Tarrytown, only about 5 miles from Downtown Ossining. I used to work in Tarrytown in the eighties and it was a very modern state of the art facility. At first the hallway struck me as to old for Phelps, but the birthroom and lounge struck me as "new enough" for the time period.
Betty's delivery seemed a lot like my wife's deliveries except I was in the room and she had me right there to yell and curse at. that's my ex wife. Very impressive stream of vulgarity without repeating herself. My second son produced an exchange of the Dr. telling her to hang in there it wasn't that bad , it will be all-right, and she unloaded on him. How the #$%& do you know . How many @#$%&*% babies did you ever had. Very entertaining for me. and then I got a beautiful kid out of it. As far as Betty moving slowly to the crying little Eugene(by the way, great baby footage, they cut that adorable yawn off to soon) give her a break.Don could have gotten up. I did all the time, and I was a terrible husband, but a great Dad. not boasting Just the Facts Mam.
And as a moderate Betty basher she did show some affection to Sally, and looked absolutely beautiful in the first dream sequence.
I love your Blogs..All that history knowledge is great
and helpful..I love MadMen! Thanks for your insight
I think Hobart and his wife didn't look at Don and his wife because something was wrong with Hobart's baby- a birth defect or something maybe or maybe the baby died.
My mom told me about after she gave birth to me in the hospital that she was holding me. There was another woman in the room who had lost her baby and she was laying in the bed facing toward the wall- facing away from my mom and me. The woman couldn't bear to look at the other mothers and their babies after she had lost hers. I can't believe that they had that poor woman stay in the same room with other mothers and their newborns. It was pretty cruel.
Birth cert read:
Eugene Scott Draper
Born June 21, 1963 @ 4:58a.m.
Born in Tarrytown, lists the Draper address in Ossining
Mother: Elizabeth Hofstader, born Cape May, N.J.
Father: (in different, clumsier handwriting) … Draper, … Calif.
Ta-town girl: '72 here also, great to see peer here :)
Take Five, I think the whiskey helped. Was that Bushmills?
And Peggy (original as a copywriter, but in life, not so mucy) repeated Duck's line to Don. About it being "her time." She can easily be coaxed away. She's one of "those girls." And she's like those people in Manhattan "they want things..."
Tender moment: When asked if he played ball with Bobby, Don answered "Not enough." awwww
@Ta-town & @Greg '72 here too! :) Cheers!
WOW, this episode was great. Betty's labor was utterly horrifying. What a sad, dettached and alienating experience. The show really brought home the inhumanity of not allowing men in the delivery room. I mean poor Betty--I seriously wanted Don with her to make sure those creepy nurses didn't "accidentally" over-drug her.
This episode really honed in on Betty's perspective and helped us understand her better (in previous episodes this season she has seemed less sympathetic). Seeing the world through Betty's eyes makes me want to scream: go back to therapy! A real therapist who won't rat you out to your husband! You don't have to do this! You're not "just" a housewife!
On the dream sequences: what I found unusual about the worm bit was that Betty showed no girly disgust at the creature. It's like Betty's stronger than she appears to be or thinks she is.
As for the other sequence involving her parents, the main theme to me is how Betty is essentially still a child emotionally. She says in the same breath "I left my lunchbox on the bus" as "I'm having a baby." And she's still afraid of her mother. This basically echoes her telling her dad in the previous episode that she's still his "little girl."
The takeaway: Betty can't grow up. She's been sheltered and held back all her life from the "real world." Her dad telling her she's important but useless, like a house cat, was so sad.
And then her line, "I'm just a housewife, why are you doing this to me?" also terribly sad.
I feel like neither Don nor Betty have what it takes yet to really be good parents or function as healthy adults. Will they learn? When will the other shoe drop for both of them? Will Betty ever sleep with Don again? (After a delivery like that one, I would definitely think twice!) Is Don going to get fired as the spoiler seemed to hint at? (Nooo!!!)
i found this episode a little nerve racking (that's not a bad thing).
A) the reality of 60's delivery rooms (if you think that was bad my mother had kids in the 50's, i am going to spare you her stories). betty's dream, was that a good dream or bad?
B) drunk teacher
C) finally a scene with p&p that told us how tense things are between them ( man the look on their faces when duck said he could tell there was something going on with them)
D) peggy asking for a raise. her not mentioning another offer may mean she considering it.
E) pete and the whole colored tv issue (strange they didn't seem to get the pun)
i made a joke before on another thread about sally seeing gene's ghost in an upcoming episode. now with betty's dream maybe i'm on to something.
okay i will try to clear a few things up. i took the scene in the hall with Dennis as his wife was being discharged without a baby as obviously the baby didn't make it. She was probably discharged the same day as Betty. Also, twilight sleep, as it was called did cause hallucinations and weird dreams. I think they may have used sodium pentothal but i'm not sure. But whatever they used, they also added Demerol to the IV fluids. As a labor and delivery nurse i enjoyed this episode, as things are so different now. It was so weird to see father's waiting for hours and not knowing what's going on with their wives. I think breastfeeding started going out of fashion in the 50's but regained popularity in the early 70's (at least here in the south). If the baby were born in mid June why were the kids still in school? but that's about right because when she found out she was pregnant it was during the cuban missile crisis which was in october, 8 months earlier
@amybett & @Greg: It was a good year! ;)
That must have been a Catholic hospital, no? (Sister something or other)
Hobo, you mean Nurse Ratchet (sp?) played by Louise Fletcher? And they sure were.
I do not believe Pete is a racist. A snob, absolutely. Loved that jacket that Hollis was wearing. Four Seasons wore similar gear, and the Beatles had similar suits at about the same time while still in England. I think some of the brilliance of Weiner's writing is how complete the characters are. I find myself rooting for and against so many characters on this show. Pete is a prime example.He can be so narrowminded at times, astute at other times. He believes in "The American Dream" yet he can't envision the variety of American Dreams. Naiive,lovable, extremely hateable at times. He so easily can hurt someone else's feelings,and so easily have his own feelings hurt. Very powerful Pete- Peggy stuff tonight.
Peggy "It's my decision Pete
Pete "Your decisions effect me. as they used to grunt on Sopranos aaaaayyy oh
I'm also Gen-X, b. 1968. My parents were married in 1962.
Another tender moment: Peggy toying with the baby booties, blue baby booties.
Lol DD, no only Jack Daniel's Single Barrel for me.
@Zabadu good catch on the birth certificate. so it was definitely Phelps Memorial Hospital
@Deepdish thanks for the correction on the Cuckoos nest nurse. as a way of thanking you it was Johnny Walker Red not bushmills.
If fathers were allowed in the delivery rooms back then, Don would probably hold Betty hand with that frustrating silence of his, occasionally commenting to the nurses of the pain that she was in, then whisper something obtuse to Betty.
Or he would make some excuse to leave the room to have a cigarette and quick depression era flashback in the hallway.
Amybett: No way, Yes!
Ta-town: Now yer talkin :)
Ah, the Mad Men we all know and love has returned this episode! Finally, some intrigue!
Best line of the show:
Hollis: (restarts the elevator) "Every job has its ups and downs"
When Betts was in her "fog", was that supposed to be Medgar Evers her Mom was standing behind with a bloody rag. She said something like: "see what happens when you speak out" Was that Betty's subconscience warning her not to confront Don about his adultry in future or she might lose him or something? What was that all about?
Man, I had my kids too late. They gave her wacky drugs so she didn't feel any pain and probably let her stay in the hospital a couple days to recuperate before sending her home.
I couldn't tell if Betty smooshed the cattapiler or held it lightly in her hand.
Breast-feeding was in fashion when my kids were born. I remember asking my Mom about it. She never did because "they thought bottle formula was better then" (that's what my Mom told me)
@gidget: Walt Disney's voice would come on & show an RV driving (no traffic jams) & Walt would say, "Come out west & bring the whole family to all these great U.S. parks, like Yellowstone ...", & we'd ask my Dad, & he'd say, "What? Fly us all out to California! What is he crazy? And who'd drive that big motorhome thing...? And where is all that summer vacation traffic congestion I've heard guys at work tell me about? And where...."? Just one of my Dad's many, "We may live in a fancy suburb, but we're not rich, you know" speeches. Thanks for making me smile as I think of it.
Friskey, I wonder if the teacher called Don or Betty. She probably called the home (Betty) and just expected mom to come? I still say it's weird (for back then) for a teacher to ask if anything is going on at home. I don't think that kind of conversation was in vogue until the late 70s. Well, maybe freshface maypole girl is ahead of her time.
Someone mentioned that the desks in Sally's class looked too modern - no, exactly the same one I had in 1963. The top was tilted and lifted up to store your things.
@mpen thanks for your insight into birthing practices. I don't no when you started your nursing career, but I have a question. At first I thought the Hobarts baby was dead. But I believe women who had a baby back then stayed in the hospital longer than now. If a baby died or was transferred to another facility for a specialists care, the Mom would be discharged earlier than a woman who stayed with a healthy baby until the baby was released. I think a 10 day stay was normal for a healthy Mom and baby in 1963 ..
@deepdish Phelps was not a Catholic hospital then or now. I think he just said "sister" as one might say lady or hon.
Hobo, I knew that. I just wanted to see if you knew that!
@Frankmar14: I've been trying to get back to your post to re-read it, as I found it very elucidating regarding the Pete-Hollis elevator conversation. I noticed Hollis' look of disdain at Pete, and I wondered if it was all about how television was so devoid of blacks in any aspect of it then, so I thought Hollis was saying to Pete: "Why would we be interested in watching it?" (With so much other important stuff going on). It was only when Pete alluded to the baseball games that he got a softening in Hollis attitude...and then I thought Pete tried to talk his way out of his clumsey, racially-based inquiry (which Hollis knew that was what it was). Pete said something like "it's all part of my job" (or similar words) and then Hollis retorted, "YES, I GUESS ALL JOBS HAVE THEIR UPS AND DOWNS." ( Score 1 Hollis, Pete 0).
But to learn from you the underlying tension was (also) about the issue of class consciousness within black society -- that was very interesting, and I can understand Hollis being sensitive to that --even though I'm sure Pete had no inkling about the subtle layers of his question. That's old "foot-in-mouth-Pete", just doing his foot-in-mouth thing.
Interesting, though, how in all his upper-crustness, he's the one to suggest "integreted ads." Very interesting.
In the early/mid 80s we were out of the hospital in 24 hours (they put a stop to that). They were called drive-through births. A nurse was sent to the home a day or two later to check the baby and the mom. She stayed for like ten minutes. That was with the early version of Humana HMO. In 1973 visitors could smoke in the patient rooms with the newborn in the room.
ouch you have small veins, try not to think about it Breathe deep and think about the beauty parlor.. Ladies , as an old school guy I only go to male barbers, what is so soothing about the beauty parlor.. it stinks in there oh I just remembered my sister used Nair or Lilt or something on her legs that stunk. are those products still in use?
@speters1: If no one has responded to your post yet (and maybe they have, I may have missed it in my quick read through) -- my theory is because this thread starts moving so fast with such a huge volumn of posts about this time of night (the West Coasters kick in) that it is really hard to keep up -- by the time I finish composing a response to a certain post, 30-40 others have come in between.
Your idea that this episode was abstract is right on! I'm still trying to decide if I like it or not. The dreamy street scene (with Betty reaching out for (what I thought was a caterpiller) could have many interpretations. I was expecting her to open her palm and see a beautiful butterfly flitter out. But that certainly didn't happen. What is your interpretation of that scene?
Re questions about Dennis calling the nurse "sister".
The terms "sister", "nursing sister" and "ward sister" come from the UK - and did not mean that the nurse was also a nun.
I thought it wasn't in current use, but I googled and found what looks like a current job ad for a "charge nurse / sister" at schealthcare.co.uk
Duck and Francine are back! Hooray! Nobody pushes this story forward like the Duckster.
I am not a fan of dream sequences. Didn't like them in the Sopranos.....thought this one was at least tight and quick. On the other hand, it felt to me like the entire show was a dream in some ways.
I hate to admit this, but I actually thought Betty might throw the baby outside the hospital window when Sally and Bobby were there to wave at her. They've got me half expecting anything to happen regarding this child. Betty doesn't seem to smitten with her. I mean him.
Next week's show looks fantastic.
Finally, I know she's smoked marijuana and picked up a guy in a bar, but I just have a hard time thinking our little Peggy would have the guts to tell Don that she deserves the same amount of money as a man. Maybe she was confident after knowing she was right about Patio, maybe she felt she was marketable because Duck wants her.....I can be talked out of this, but her transformation to Gloria Steinem seems pretty darn quick to me. But maybe that's the way it was.
Re Don meeting Dennis in the hospital hallway
Dennis is pushing his wife in a wheelchair. She appears to be wearing bedroom slippers and a housecoat with round lapels. Her hands appear to be folded in her lap. I don't see a baby in her arms. It doesn't look like she's being discharged from the hospital. Remember she lost alot of blood in the breech birth.
Don is walking down the hall, flowers in his left arm. He seems to smile with recognition at Dennis. Dennis and his wife seemed a bit cheerful when moving down the hall, but at the moment when Dennis passed Don, Dennis did seem to not want to recognize Don. Don reacted, shaking his head slightly to the effect of "that was odd".
Maybe Dennis felt that he "overshared" with Don while in the waiting room. Maybe Dennis realizes that Don has brought his wife flowers and is going home with the baby, something Dennis and his wife cannot do for awhile longer.
What is the name of the song that was playing at the end?
@G: You probably meant for me to "chill out" (gag, spit.). Okay, maybe you don't have the time, or the will, to read 1500 former posts from the 3rd & 4th episodes, but couldn't you ask yourself, w/ 1500 posts, someone else might have noticed that the wedding date was the day after the JFK assassination? If you stay on the posts, you'll find that some newcomer is frequently coming on & asking, "Don Draper has another name?", & you'll have the personal expereience that we all do; that this is only funny the first 100 times you read it. And see all the great company you are in w/ peers born in the 70s? Only old folks like me from the 50s will give you a hard time. And we will (or at least I will.)
@gidget: the plastic screen you're referring to, I remember seeing that described in a mail order catalog, & I thought it was weird then! I never would have thought of that product for the rest of my life! Thanks for a good laugh. (Who would ever buy such a thing?)
The music at the end was "Me Voy A Morir De Tanto Amor" from the Spanish film, Lucia y El Sexo. Roughly translated, it means "I could die from so much love."
@gimletgal; I didn't mean to step on your post --where you mentioned (before I did) Hollis' "ups and downs" quip, and Pete's being ahead of his time in a certain way. That's what happens when I'm rushing through. Sorry.
@racy4, you're right, but I'm a transfer from the Entertainment Weekly recap site, and no one from there picked up on the JFK date. You all are much more insightful, and that's why I'm making this site home.
@KBF i had the same sick thought about a flying baby . it was a quick scene and I was trying to figure out if it was a dream and could happen..
the rest of the family smiling and waving from the street seemed very odd.
nikita_ava
Yeah see what I mean, Betty suddenly turned an about face and everything changed with her. She's bonding immediately. But you also have Don who is deciding to start up that bond again with Sally. What's going on here?
But then again, and so far it's only me, but I'm really looking at that last scene as trouble. I don't know. They're making us think, damn them.
Wow to those who wondered about Peggy and Pete's relationship since last seasons finale, I guess you got an answer tonight.
I don't know if this was mentioned before. When Sally was watching Don cook that disgusting concoction, he held an egg up to the light. Sally asked "Are You Looking for a chick". Miss Farrell's name came up immediately after. Don averages at least two affairs a season. we are getting close to halfway in season 3. I don't count the stewardess. so he better get going. I also think Sally get's something from Miss Farrell that Betty doesn't give. Like father like daughter?
I'm glad Pete walked out on Duck.
Pete is always on target with his new idea thinking. he saw the American Bandstand use for Clearisil advertising. ( think Peggy was in on that too) Pete also said to Don how important he felt Space technology would be in the future(when they were in Calif.)
Now Pete sees a untapped market that Admiral TV-client is not pursuing. Pete is on target.
I hope Peggy gets paid more, what she wants, because I'd hate to see her go over to work for Duck.
Don had interesting intimate verbal exchanges with three people during this episode:
- with Dennis who said Don was “all right” and “an honest guy”, and that Dennis could tell because he is “an expert”. Inspired by his child's birth, Dennis said he would be a “better man” and said to Don “tell me you heard me”. Don said “I heard you.”
- with Miss Farrell the schoolteacher - on the phone he is sympathetic to her when she says she was eight when her father died.
- with Peggy. The discussion briefly changed from Peggy requesting a raise, to Peggy having had a baby out of wedlock, without specifically mentioning Peggy's baby. Peggy handled the blue baby bootie on one of the baby presents in the office, and said “third time, you must be old hat”. Obviously she was thinking about her own baby. Don said she would be fine. Peggy said she wants “what he has”, that he has “everything” and “so much of it”. Don agreed. Then the conversation flipped back to the request for a raise.
I'm not going to assume that the producers would follow a predictable TV formula for plot layouts, but is it possible for one of the main characters to be followed outside the rest of the established milieu? Maybe Peggy will be written into a whacky sitcom spin-off with the always hilarious Duck, her meddlesome Brooklyn family and that creepy horn dog priest.
There are just not enough 'Single gal in the city' sitcoms out there.
psi168:- I'm with you , that "Teacher is creepy" and I think she drinks.
I wonder sometimes does Peggy have a soul or is she a robot? She takes the words, thoughts of the last person she talked to...and uses them.
To All of My Fellow Maddicts: This is the first thread I've read, although I've been a Maddict since Season 1, Episode 1 (hooked from the very first show!).
It's a great show, with fabulous writing, tremendous acting and unbelievable irreverence. But it is spot-on, with moral convictions and dilemmas! That is why it appeals to cross-generational audiences.
All of you from the Greatest Generation, The Baby Boomers, The Gen-X-ers, and beyond keep on posting and sharing your thoughts about the show. They’re fantastic and quite witty.
I hope the show runs for the next few years so we can see a treatment of the turbulent 60's. I see Peggy as an editor to Betty Friedan's, Feminine Mystique, Joan fleeing to Woodstock where she miraculously finds Sally who just hitched her way to Yasger's farm, Pete (what a weasel!) suffocating under his own pride and arrogance, and Don -- he's a survivor -- he will rise to the top somehow.
Don’t worry about the “left coast” receiving pre-information about the episode – we have the option of not reading until after we watch, or catch it at an earlier time…
Wonder if Betts does not want to nurse because she likes her wine so much?
"This is not a good time" for a raise for Peggy- that made me laugh because it was ALWAYS what they told me when I asked for a raise.That or the men needed the higher salaries because "they have famlies to support".
RE the onimous wedding date for Margaret - they not only said the date in the script, they close-upped the invitation on the screen. I wanted to say,"Okay, we get it already.."
Betty's dream parents repeated the messages they taught her in life "Close your mouth, don't speak up. There are consequences for speaking up. Be content with what you've got"" and from Daddy: "You have nothing much to do."
Betty brought the baby to the window because kids were not allowed to visit in the hospital. Moms stayed several days to a week then, with a lot of bed rest at home. ( Maybe Pete would have tossed the baby, as he did that chicken, right out the window.)
Oh, and the chair business during the school visit -that was nothing more than Betts was so huge she could not fit in acstudent chair so thecteacher gave her thecteacher chair, that' s all.
Fellow '72-er here.
This was one of the most brilliant episodes ever. So many scenes were left for interpretation.
I think the baby and the teacher represent innocence and how Don admires the simplicity of innocence, yet knows he cannot ever return to innocence.
Also, thank you for the Medgar Evans information. I was not aware of him and think the inclusion of his murder in this episode coupled with Pete's "understanding" of the struggle for Civil Rights was interesting.
After each episode, I find myself analyzing every component and researching cultural references. This is the greatest television series ever.
Also, thank you bloggers for your comments. Your insight is thought provoking.
There were a couple of "ah-ha" moments and a couple of "I knew it!" moments, which made my husband look at me funny. I was so proud of myself. I knew Betty's baby would be a boy. The strange dreams came from the DRUGS! I'm so happy I went the way I did with my youngest son. "I left my lunchbox on the bus and I'm having a baby." Beautiful. Don in the waiting room, beautiful, also. So calm and cool and looking oh so handsome while waiting for Betty to get done thrashing and hallucinating to pop out the baby.
I think Pete is starting to get it as far as the civil rights movement goes, just starting to, I didn't say he gets it. I thought it would be Paul, but go figure.
I'll have to watch it again to be sure I saw everything. There must be something in the cabinets of Don and Betty's kitchen, memories coming alive, dream wanderings, what's next? Just kidding, love the kitchen!
Don and Sally are really going to bond now. Bobby's going to start acting up now.
Children were never allowed in most hospitals back then unless they were the patient. I remember many times being under 12 and waving to a realitive.
In the original movie Yours, Mine and Ours, all the children were outside. The same with Good Morning Miss Dove.
No biggie, I suppose children were consider germ carriers.
Hi everyone!
A few observations about the hospital/labor and delivery,Betty, and the new Gene.
As a nurse for many years, I am always fascinated by the way nurses are portrayed on TV and film. We have changed a great deal from the 60s. I was annoyed that the first nurse we saw was overweight and a bit of a "nurse Rachett". The other waiting room nurse was a bit of a ditz, and started blurting out "med speak" to the other poor father waiting there. She uses the term breech, and he says he doesn't know what that means. Then she says not to worry because they are calling in a specialist, which makes him worry more.
The labor/delivery scenes were pretty accurate from what I was taught. When the doctor said Betty was 7cm dilated she was in what is called the transition phase of delivery. This is the most difficult part for women. She became angry, and tried to get up. It is not unusual for women at this phase to say "I've decided not to have the baby", or to swear, blame their significant other for the mess they are in etc.
Back in the 50s and 60s, it was not unusual for women to receive a lot of narcotic pain meds during the procedure. That is why the OB doc ordered Demerol, and the nurse put it in Betty's IV.
I thought the cut away scene to Betty holding the baby in her bed and calling her "she" was so realistic. She wasn't with it enough to realize she had a boy. Don had to correct her.
I remember my mother telling me she was so drugged, she woke up with each one of us in her arms, and as she said "it could have been anybodys' baby for all I knew". We were born in the mid to late 50s and early 60s.
Brest feeding was not considered very popular until the late 60s. Bottles and formula were considered more modernearlier. Also, many women felt breast feeding would ruin their breasts shape. That sounds like Betty.
I don't think the guard from Sing Sing and his wife necessarily lost their baby for a few reasons.
If she was being discharged a staff member would have been with them. I also didn't see a suitcase with her, and I thought she was in a robe. I think he was taking her to see the baby at the Nursery.
He may have been too drunk to remember Don. Or didn't recognize Don because he was all cleaned and dressed up. I think Don thought they "bonded" in the waiting room. I did enjoy their exchange in the waiting room though.
If Betty has post partum depression, no one will know what it is. They used to call it the "baby blues", and women were supposed to just get over it and become loving nurturing mothers.
I had to smile when Francine offered a girl for help, Betty (while looking at Sally), said she'd be OK. Poor Sally, she's going to become the little mommy.
I've gone on way too long now. Great episode, so much to talk about!!
P.S. Did anyone else notice Betty's "coming home" outfit? A lovely pink ensemble (because she thought she was having a girl)?
this show is so wonderfully subtle and complex...how many years do you think it will have to run before it shows "the lives and times" of African Americans? the touches are nice and i appreciate the fact that they can't rush it, but i'm curious...it will be interesting to see if they jump ahead a few years in time when the next season starts. i thought it was interesting that Pete was the character they used to "make contact." the Medgar Evers reference was exceptional; maybe there's hope for Sally after all...
I had a chilling thought that Sally's comment about "addling" (which according to her means shaking a fertile egg 'so you can cook it') along with her willingness to shove a heavy girl into the drinking fountain might be prophetic about her acceptance of the new baby. She also didn't expect another brother and doesn't like having the function change for Grandpa's room! But maybe all of this is the end of a story line rather than a continuation, and Eugene Scott will be Sally's new favorite. She's almost the right age for sibling affection rather than sibling rivalry.
Along what I hope is not a similar line, why does Betty perceive the nurse as saying "we'll be covering that in Chapter 12?" when the doctor is both "here and there?" Episode 12? Little in MM seems wasted.
One last comment for the morning--you can see the wire attached to the slowly-falling caterpillar when it's in Betty's hand. You can see it so plainly that I think we're meant to see it. Not sure why.
I do believe the music throughout and at the ending credits played in episode 5 of season 3 "The Fog" was that of Tchaikovsky's "Romeo and Juliet" suite. Could this be true and is this a running parallel to Don and Betty's relationship?
I sure hope they post this on the music page - as I'm dying to know what was played!
I don't think it was a wire connecting the caterpillar, more like a silk thread, like a spider's web. And we couldn't tell is she crushed it, just closerd her hand over it (I saw no squeeze.) I too expected a butterfly.
Can you believe Francine's "why didn't you FORCE Carla to stay"? Did she not know Mr Lincoln freed the slaves a century earlier? It will be interesting seeing Betty "handle things" on her own, but she seems - dare I say it - almost happy, or at least less miserable than we've seen her in the series. I think she is indeed starting to grow up and become an adult. We'll see how far she gets and for how long it lasts before reverting to "I'm a princess" mode.
And I sensed Don was genuinely puzzled that Miss Farrell called his home - and note the relief when he called out "Betts!" when he heard her calling his name (loved the classic "gotta find my keys, they're in your hand" bit.) I feel like Don's two worlds are slowly exchanging places: home is becoming more stable and work is falling apart.
I'm wondering if Pete will spill the beans about the meeting with Duck (and the fact that Peggy was also there and had the same offer.) Pete seems to assume Peggy may take the offer and go with Duck (and would not be unhappy if she did.) The question is if Don becomes aware of the situation, will he try to keep Peggy on board with a raise, somewhere between what she wants and what he can convince PPL to give. Would he pay her something instead off the books and out of his own pocket?
As much as Don is progressive where Peggy is concerned, he can't - and shouldn't for the times - make that leap that Peggy, and soon others, expect of him and the rest of the men. Peggy is leading edge, ever so slightly ahead of her time, I'm afraid. She will not be sitting on velvet pillows et al at Grey so unless she's smart enough to get a written guarantee of salary plus raises - and I don't see Duck agreeing to that - she should run, not walk, away from the Duckster. He cannot be trusted. Pete knows it.
What was with Dennis(creepily) asking about the young Nurse or was she a Candy-striper?( hospital-worker volunteer ) Dennis asks, when she leaves the cigarette machine(after both men push it to get a pack out) is she about 16? Don kind of shrugs ,looks a bit odd or uncomfortable at the question then basically doesn't answer, ignoring him.
I found Dennis's comment about the girl possibly being 16, creepy. I also found his comment about not bringing Prison work home made my hair stand up.
Morning Maddicts! I love waking up to think more about last nights show don't you?
@hobo - at the beauty salon, everything is done for you, so it is relaxing.
@firstave - I think it's @iwaspeggy who said previously that Peggy is like a sponge, soaking it all up and using it right away to her advantage.
@scan - cheers to '72!
@60's child - great pick up on the pink outfit...I noticed how lovely it was, but forgot about the pink anticipation.
@AuburnAnnie - I also think the bug was some sort of small silkworm. I've seen them come out of trees like that before, on their own little silk threads...but does it symbolize the baby as a "gift" dropping from the sky, or Betty herself in transformation??? I don't think she crushed it.
I also worry about Betty handling everything herself without help...
Peggy has a legal right to =pay now doesn't she?
Equal Pay Act was June 10th, 1963. She doesn't need to play the Duck card, just the reminder about the letter of the law should be enough?
But I suppose it's like all legal equality advancements...a muffled reality that takes time to be put into practice as preached.
I think the caterpillar is a symbol of Betty (it was her dream, after all) and her closing her hand around it symbolizes how trapped and suffocated she feels.
The pink dress is such a great catch. These writers miss very few tricks.
hobo: Phelps is a private hospital just across the road from the Rockefeller property. Don may have said sister but that's just an old fashioned name for a nurse and is still used in England(unless the feminazies have outlawed the term lol)
Women all over the world give birth quietly and it's only American females who scream and get hysterical giving birth. It's probably why the doctors had to drug them with barbituates (not morphia since it would depress the baby's breathing). Who wants to listen to all that childish crying. If giving birth were so bad in 99% of the cases, no woman would even do it.
I wonder if we'll see Betty's stretch marks?
Hi amybett!
I just figured knowing Betty she would have had that outfit picked out well before the baby's birth.
Thanks for the kudos!
As far as The Equal Pay Act...passed in 1963, and we women are still fighting for equal pay for equal work!!!
first avenue: Dennis propably worked at nearby Sing Sing prison and perhaps he was the guy who pulled the switch on the electric chair so of course he not bringing that home :o)
And 16 is the age of consent so perhaps he was looking for a replacement while his wife is indisposed or busy with the baby. He was just making sure that the girl was legal.
MontyIII
As much as I hate too...I have to respond to your comment. Have you ever had labor pains, or given birth?!
Was Duck hinting that he knew about Pete and Peggy's "other"former relationship , too?
I wonder if Duck still drinks, now and then?
Pete ran from Duck like he was Thyphoid Mary!
@miltonzdad: you said:
Dennis had already broken his promise to Don and felt guilty about it.
What promise was made? What promise was broken?
I'm not sure anyone mentioned poor Peggy had to get her own baby gift - nobody included her in the office collection. So, were the girls being jealous and bitchy, or did they assume that she, being in a higher position would do her own thing, as would Pete, etc. But from Peggy's tone, it appeared she felt left out. Again.
Women all over the world give birth individually. Not all American women scream (very few do, in fact) but I did hear a screamer when I was in labor with my first child in 1983. She was 15, scared half to death, and in false labor, eventually sent home. Gotta tell ya, Monty, it's extremely painful for most women. There are exceptions; those are the same women who never cramp. They have few or no prostaglandins, is all. Think kidney stone pain moved to the lower abdomen.
Both of my children were delivered naturally, no morphine or epidural. Unknown to me (and not requested) at the time of my second delivery the nurse anesthetist added Stadol to my IV during the pushing phase and my blood pressure dropped to paractically unreadable - they thought I was hemorrhaging internally; turns out I'm allergic.
Good Morning all. I really enjoy reading everyone's take on the show.
Regarding the silk worm, could it be that when Betty encloses the worm in her fist she is protecting it from harm or getting away?
It was too far up to find it now, but someone had asked about the kids still being in school in June.
In NY and NJ you don't start school until September and it runs through a good chunk of June depending on days off and so on. I remember one year I didn't get out until the 26th of June.
This was a great episode, but my main worry comes from the preview...is Don getting fired?
Hollis is quite the prophet, every job has its ups and downs, his is physical, while Sterling-Cooper is having its ups and downs in another manner.
I thought the show was great, and I really can't wait for next week!
I did love the Soprano's style dream sequences, though they did seem too "Sopranos" and not quite "Mad Men ish."
i was the last born in my family. so i liked hear about first borns thoughts about sally at age nine having a baby brother. bobby would be the one to be competing. sibling relationship can be more intense than parent/child.
Dennis was not happy to see Don in the hospital hallway, that can only mean bad news for Dennis' child. The nurse said the child was breech, meaning the baby had not turned and was feet first. Nowadays that usually means a c-section, but some doctors attempt to deliver the baby and complications sometimes occur such as the umbilical cord wrapping around the childs neck and the oxygen is shut off resulting in death or complications. Dennis had used the birth as a new beginning. As a male with children, I was tickled to tell anyone, strangers included that I was a Father. Religion teaches us there are consequences to all our actions, and Dennis may have been feeling his bad fortune was because of his poor choices and this was God's way of punishing him. After all it seems he has an eye for young females. Don seems to have a teflon exterior as eveidenced by Peggy telling him he has everything, and a lot of it. It did seem that Don was trying a new beginning as well, but he chose not to reveal the nature of the drunk dial from the teacher, and that may be a foreshadowing of a future parent/teacher meeting at the Roosevelt.
I think that the Hobo, in Hobo Code and Dennis in The Fog, were both played by the same actor. If so that must mean something.. I think that most of the waiting room scene was Dons inner struggle to untangle the web he has woven for himself. Perhaps it was just a fantasy. Don is a prisoner with in himself and also his own jailer (prison guard). He is searching for the honest man within himself to free him.
I also think Betty had a very difficult delivery. Her barefoot walk down that long corridor into a bright light could have been a near death experience. Going to her home, finding only dead people. Her father mopping up blood, her mother tending to Medgar Evers. Both of them not really taking her seriously, just the advice to keep her mouth shut. He father telling her that she is just a house cat with very little to do. He tells her that everything will be alright.
Ah well maybe that is just my middle of the night fantasy, I should just go t bed and get some sleep...
i, too, noticed the wire/silk that dropped down the worm/caterpillar! i wonder if anyone thought it was symbolism for being baited or hooked. Sort of like a light metaphor for Betty being taken in by something.
Yeardly Smith ! Ha-ha !
The car ad that Don tore from the magazine was for the 1963
Pontiac Catalina. You can see the ad here.
http://www.1963pontiac.com/images/literature/ad10.jpg
Looks like a romanticized vision of California. Is Don itching for another trip?
Don's Cadillac is beautiful .
Are looking for a chick ? Lol. Always !
Don, run away from the schoolmarm. I have a feeling she'd be the type that would tell Betty that Don had been screwing her. Betty would kick her a**.
Duck the Schmuck. What a weasel.
Pete was on the money as far as trying to stretch Admiral's advertising dollars.
Harry Crane is dead weight.
You have everything and so much of it.
As discussed last season, Don would be a millionaire several times over. Does Betty know just how much Don is worth?
Guy Walks Into An Advertising Agency: Sounds like the opening line to joke...
Sopranos-Ducks, Man Men-a man named Duck
Mob-Hit, has Don had that Caddy or is that new? Im a lifeling Caddy Driver and I love Tin Men too
I believe Duck was trying to hint at blackmailing Pete when he had them there for lunch and that's why he invited Peggy too. And Pete walked out because he had learned from Don to ignore people like Duck who are powerless.
Don bought the car last season, episode 7.
Here's a link to that episode's recap.
http://www.amctv.com/originals/madmen/episode207
Don hems and haws about buying it. He later goes back and buys it.
Betty pukes in it. So much for that new car smell !
Dana,
I think your analysis about Don being imprisoned within himself is true.
Also, I do not think anything was wrong with the prison guard's baby. He told Don that this was his way of making a new start and by not acknowledging Don in the hallway, it was his way of leaving his past because Don was now, a part of his past. Also, maybe the prison guard was embarrassed that he was "weak" in front of Don and did not want to recall that weakness.
I definitely think Betty had a near death experience and I am predicting she will suffer from depression again.
I also think we will see the teacher again because remember Don was focused on her during the May pole dance.
Is it just me, or did that hefty delvery nurse remind you of 1960's actress, Pat Carroll?
http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/21200387.gif
In other threads we have discussed how one of the unspoken plot-points in MM is that Sterling-Coo is always a little bit behind the times. Boy, they sure revealed that in this episode, with Pete's flogging over what was almost certainly a progressive and probably good idea (for its time).
However, they did put their finger on a very uncomfortable truism within the ad industry. It is true that the ad agencies secretly know that ads are about how we WANT to see ourselves; we don't necessarily want to LITERALLY see ourselves in ads. There is that unspoken "wish fulfillment" and "upwardly mobile" thing going on... As crass as it may sound.
The whole mood of this particular episode really was dreamy, hypnotic.... like Betty, I too felt as though I were flitting back-and-forth between dream-state and reality.
Never has the MM dialogue been more elliptic than in this epi. So much is left out, implied in the conversations... One has to be on the ball to fully catch the drift of every conversation.
Interestingly, I was born in February 1963, and my Mom did breastfeed. Not sure why she did not follow the trend at the time to feed infant formula.
1963, IIRC, was the year that Dr. Spock's BABY AND CHILD CARE came out?
Poor Hollis. Couldn't you just feel his agony in talking to Pete? Pete, no matter how high-minded he imagines himself, is really clueless about the magnitude and extreme importance of civil rights.
Will Peggy leave? As attractive as the Gray job is, I don't think it bodes well for her to be seduced by Duck.... I fear Gray will go under, forcing her to come crawling back with her tail between her legs, and possibly losing the tenuous foothold she already has. Glad she stood up for herself, though. Interesting that the Equal Pay Law could be passed.... only to still have men like Don sneer at it.
One thing the decor people at MM nailed in this episode was the decor of the fathers' waiting room at the hospital. Ibn 1963, that color scheme--- russet, gold, black---- was thought to be a "manly" one.
(Check out the snazzy interior Patricia Neal buys for her boy-toy George Pepopard in 1961's BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY'S. It-- those colors--- actually looks kinda strident and ugly to me, but we surely appreciate that they were considered ultra-chic for their time.)
Thanks Mob-Hit, I had a 79 Eldorado, and the same thing happened on a road trip to see the Rolling Stones
Guys (& Gals) I know some of you keep rooting for Don to have another affair, but do you really think he'll do it??
I think the Teacher will throw herself at him one way or another...but will Don go through with it?
Miss Farrell was WA-Y-Y outta line, don't you think?
Does Don give off a certain studly pheromone or something? How did she know just from their schoolroom visit that Don was a "playa" ? I didn't see him leading her on in any way.
.....and why did the other father--- the prison guy---- ignore Don's glance in the hospital corridor when he was wheeling his wife and new baby out?
Is it because he'd sobered up a bit... enough to realize embarrassingly that he'd spilled too many intimacies with Don earlier?
Miss Farrell was WA-Y-Y outta line, don't you think?
Does Don give off a certain studly pheromone or something? How did she know just from their schoolroom visit that Don was a "playa" ? I didn't see him leading her on in any way.
.....and why did the other father--- the prison guy---- ignore Don's glance in the hospital corridor when he was wheeling his wife and new baby out?
Is it because he'd sobered up a bit... enough to realize embarrassingly that he'd spilled too many intimacies with Don earlier?
@amybett: The teacher has the hots for Don. While Don could easily put another notch on the bed post, imho, she'd be more trouble than it's worth.
She already has shown she'll make drunken phone calls to his house. That alone should warn Don to steer well clear of her. Way too close to home.
Dennis is like Don's ID...and Dennis can't look Don in the eye because Don can't be a "better man" yet...
@Dr Piglet ~ I think the silk worms string serves as the umbilical cord.
@Rasputin 1963 ~ Exaxtly, Pat Carroll! I knew she reminded me of someone.
• I thought The Fog was a great episode; it was a real showcase for January Jones’ acting skills. Thanks to the other posters who recognized the one nurse as also voicing Lisa Simpson. I recognized her voice right away, but couldn’t place it.
• Friskey dingo: it would have been unusual in those days for a dad to take time off work to go to a parent/teacher meeting. Even when the meetings were held in the evening, it was always my mother who attended.
• It’s touches like this that really anchor the show in the right time period. I also vividly remember waiving up at my mother and new baby brother from outside our local hospital in 1969.
• It was good to see Duck rockin’ his turtleneck. Don’t go Peggy! Pete’s right not to trust him.
It was interesting to see Betty come home in what looked like a maternity dress. Unlike Hollywood today which expects new mothers to immediately look like they've never given birth, she looked like she still had her baby weight and was still swollen in her belly. Kudos for showing a what a real woman looks like after childbirth.
So far, the series has been about the goings on within one small agency that's becoming a miserable place to work. The Brits are insufferable. Who could blame anyone for bailing?
And what do you know, Duck's over at Grey.
I can't stand Duck, but Grey is much bigger than Duck. Peggy may see that it's a place where she could grow. She'd get the salary bump she's looking for, maybe even a sign on bonus. She'd get a fresh start in a place where she isn't dismissed as a secretary who worked her way up too fast. There might even be other female copywriters.
Pete may jump for other reasons.
Madison Avenue has lots of agencies. Mad Men work at all of them. It might be time for the story to widen out.
When Don was picking up Betty at the Hospital, he passed the guard in the hallway wheeling his wife in the wheelchair, but there was no baby and the guard ignored Dons greeting. Any thoughts o this?
Please show us some scenes of " When Don Met Betty" .
How and when did they meet ? Why did Don fall for Betty? I think this deserves a scene or two.
It's funny--for the first season, my crush was Roger--mostly b/c he so epitomized the fun and recklessness of that era--he'd be a fun guy to have an affair with. I kind of still liked his resilience after his two heart attacks, but I didn't find him quite as sexy. I didn't really have a crush last season b/c I found Don to be too cold, too mean--he's not a lark and he's not a loyal husband, so I couldn't quite put him in the right crush category.
But I'm telling you...I don't know where I've been, but I suddenly have serious crush/hots for Don! Kind of retrospectively back to that first episode...I don't know if it's a new phase I'm in, but that kind of dark powerful progressive (at the time) modern man of ideas who won't suffer fools is suddenly my kind of man.
@ IwasPeggy: We know Peggy is smart. Is she smart enough to make a career move? Or is it just as smart to stick around SC for another year and keep learning from the master? Don is a damn good creative director, and she still has a lot to learn. Interesting to think about the story widening out to include rival agencies.
The Brits make me puke.
>>So while my well educated and middle class mom was following the trend back to breast feeding in the early 1960s, the other mothers in the ward who were working class were following what they thought was the well-to-do way.
With women smoking and drinking during and after pregnancy, it was probably a good thing formula feeding was done - this goes for middle as well as working class. My mom said I was a crier and she now thinks it could have been due to me withdrawing from nicotine, so it was probably best I was on formula (soy for me - I was allergic to cows milk). btw - I'm a child of the 60s which is an outstanding decade - arguably the best in the 20th century.
I agree that these Brits make me totally want to puke! I like Brits, as they are usually charming and funny, but these are just vile. I really hope they go away in the next few episodes. They are kind of fun to hate for a while, but they are growing tiresome now.
Good to see Duck again! He is looking good; looks like he is staying off the sauce. Still a snake in the grass, though. Poaching SC for talent (if you want to call Pete talent). I loved it when he outed their little romance! He does have a keen eye.
I don’t think Don will be fired – you know how they do on those previews. I think Roger is just saying bye bye to tell Don to leave the office. But you can tell he is getting fed up with the new management. I loved it when he walked out on the nit picking expense report meeting! Maybe he will start his own company?
That scene where Betty though she saw her dad was good. I know and have read about people when they lose a parent, they think they see them out somewhere and it really affects them. Her dream sequences were well done too. That birth was nightmarish. Makes me grateful I never went through it!
I laughed out loud when Hollis the Elevator Operator said "Every job has its ups and downs" Hilarious!
Body language....That was an intimate touch from that prison guard when he put his hand on the side of Don's face. What did you think?
Any body language knowledge from any of our posters?
Ever since the first season, I suspected Don had spent some years in prison before entering the service. There is a gap in his history of about 4 years or so let's say from age 17 or 18 till early 20's.
In the waiting room when the prison guard mentioned his occupation I could swear I noticed a quick flinch on Don's part.
"Bye-bye" because Don is going to have to go on another business trip. Not getting fired. More likely the Brit will be replaced.
Has anyone mentioned if this is Don't child? Didn't Betty have a quickie with in a bar with some guy that came on to her when she was waiting by the Ladies Room.
I forget which episode that was. Maybe the time frame was too long ago.
Really great episode.
Betty's birth scene totally reminded me of what my Mom has told me about having 4 kids during that time. (Upper middle class like Betty). When she gave birth the first time, she said women were screaming and swearing all around her. She says it was the first time she ever heard women using "those words". She said the nurses left you alone and came in every so often until you were "ready" and then put you out to give birth. There were no husband or family around at all. Because of this experience she waited until the last minute to go to the hospital for her 3 other births and ended up almost giving birth to me in the car. Nonetheless, she never ended up having any drugs again, except an epidural and was amazed to be able to witness the birth of her other children with no drugs. And yes, women stayed in the hospital much longer in those days after giving birth. Not a bad thing at all. So, very good job on the scenes with Betty.
- Thought it was interesting that Duck was wearing a turtleneck; it immediately struck me as much hipper than the guys at Sterling. Also liked him telling Pete not to be such a baby. As if Pete's so moral. He would have stayed if Peggy wasn't there.
- Brief scene of Betty's mother conveyed in her hallucination shows just how scared she was of her Mom.
- Chilling scene, to me, of the newborn wailing down the hall and Betty's hesitancy to go to the room where her father slept just a few weeks earlier, and is now occupied by the unexpected son named after her father.
I gave birth in early 60's and breastfeeding was unpopular, thought formula was better for baby and a nurse would accompany the birth mother in a wheelchair till outside the hospital and then would
give the mother the baby.. outside..how about no car seats,,just held the baby in the front seat yet! Child Birth was like in the show. Didn't see the father till after the mother left the recovery room.
I think that everyone who said that Dennis & Don bonded in the waiting room, but that was it, as far as Dennis is/was concerned, is correct. Its just one of those things, you spill your guts, get loaded and then when you see the person again, you don't want to talk.
As for the ad, does anyone remember when Betty was searching Don's desk @ home? He collects ads that he likes and keeps them; Bets found a bunch in his desk.
I'm wondering--why was Gene's mop covered in blood? Anyone got any ideas on that?
I'll take this one:
@tinagl Welcome to the MM board! The baby is undoubtedly Don's, Betty already knew she was pregnant when she had her back room quickie.
@penultimate - interesting theory...there is so much we don't know about Don/Dick....
Thank you modern times for my easy/quick/painless epidural during labor 2 years ago!! This show really gives me some perspective and something to be grateful for today!
I love advertising and it's what originally drew me to this show. Since then, everything about it has made me stay.
What was with the Grey advertising lines from Pete? About people walking in the halls smiling, laughing or whatever. And the "only been at Grey for X time and you're already having a nosh?" Was Grey on of "those firms for those people" (as was mentioned in the first episode re: the Menkin's account)?
Any insight would be very appreciated.
Oh, and I'd like to order a tall January Jones in the caterpillar dream sequence to go please!
In the dream sequence, Betty is wearing a beautiful silk dress. The music and the scenery signal that she is in her "happy place". She has passed from the ugly cocoon stage into a butterfly, lovely, colorful and slim. The inchworm/silkworm in her hand represents the stage she has finished, and, if indeed she kills it, that is symbolic of her wish to have no more children? Or perhaps, as 60s Child so astutly suggests, she will stop measuring the marigolds now and live more fully?
The dream changes to an indoor scene where she is half-woman, half-child. We see her being criticized by her mother, told to close her mouth. But she is validated by her daddy, who tells her she is important and reassures her that he misses her. Still working out her parent issues.
Inchworm, inchworm, measuring the marigolds
You and your arithmetic will probably go far
Inchworm, inchworm, ___________
_______________, how beautiful you are.
One and one are two, two and two are four,
Eight and eight are sixteen,
Sixteen and sixteen are thirty-two.
It's a children's counting song. Help with the blanks, please?
Inchworm, inchworm, measuring the marigolds you and your arithmatic.
You'll probably go far. inchworm, inchworm, measuring the marigolds;
seems to me you'd stop and see how beautiful they are.
(Violen solo)
Inchworm, inchworm, measuring the marigolds. You and your arithmatic, you'll probably go far.
Inchworm, inchworm measuring the marigolds; seems to me you'd stop and see how beautiful they are.
(kids chanting goes on repeating 2&2 are 4... etc...)
Seems to me you'd stop and see how beautiful they are.
Seems to me you'd stop and see how beautiful they are.
I loved Betty's line in her dream about "I left my lunch pail on the bus. And I'm going to have a baby." Just showing that even Betty views herself as a child in a woman's body?
The waiting room stuff is fun to mull over. I kind of wonder if Don wasn't imagining the conversation with this guy. Seemed kind of like things Don wouldn't normally share with a stranger, but then he did open up to Connie a couple of episodes ago.
Thank you so much, Double D! I hate it when my brain does that.
Some small observations:
Pryce is bean counting, but wastes most of his whisky.
Don admits to having dreams about winding up in prison!
Betty rises reluctantly to feed the newborn. That means having to go to the kitchen to mix and warm the formula, all the while trying to keep Eugene's crying from waking the household, and with only two hands. She has done this twice before and knows how exhausting it is. She is struggling with taking that first step, but resigns herself to it. But she knows it will be quite a while before she recaptures the freedom she had before the birth. Breastfeeding would've been so much simpler, just take the baby into bed until satiated, and put it back into its crib. By the way, why isn't the baby sleeping in their room for the first few weeks?
Re the car ad that Don ripped out of the magazine in the hospital waiting room: isn't that the car he and Betty (and Gene) drove up to their house in when he brought Betty home? I'm pretty sure it was.
Somebody on a local board has suggested that “Dennis” is really Don’s guilty conscience. And that what happened to “Pam” was what happened to Betty: breech birth and lost a lot of blood.
Notice the light on the hospital room wall – the time elapse showed that over a day passed…and then we see Betty sitting up in bed with the child.
He goes on to say that that comment Dennis made about the prison stopping the works while he’s absent ties right in with how the show did not go on while Don was waiting for Betty in the father’s room.
I thought it was an interesting observation on the poster’s part.
Well it's been about 12 hours or so that I've had to digest the 2 viewings and I'll watch again . I've learned so much from your posts and now that we know it was Johnny Waker red, Suzanne Ferrell the famous prima ballerina, and Yardley from the Simpsons, we still have a few things to clear up.
I had such a sad and wary feeling at seeing Betty hesitate before she left her bedroom to attend new baby boy.... It seemed to me that she was contemplating a long walk away from her life and her perception of what it holds in store. As a 'housecat' she weighs the value of what she has to offer this new baby. Betty has never had much of what we'd call a purpose other than to look good. Of what value can that be to a baby?
Somehow, in that moment, Betty was reviwing her small toolbox and finding that she doesn't have much to work with...
Dennis' disregard of Don appeared to me as typical male behavior.. The bottle of Johnny Walker and the conversation betweern them being more easily dismissed than affirmed.. As we know, Don stockpiles everything and not always just what's been scribbled on a cocktail napkin.. That conversation, for his part, may be his new bedrock.
Betty's drug induced dream sequences were just more of what her relationships were like with her living parents. Whole nuthr empty and rattling tool box entirely...
Dana -
I looked it up. The hobo in Hobo Code was played by Paul Schulze, Dennis was played by Matt Bushell.
The thing about the Brits is what a lot of people who've worked with Brit upper management in England can tell you: They're heavily influenced by social class, even now. If you went to the right schools, it's an easy fit. If you didn't... you'd be better off working for an American company. Naturally, there are some exceptions but Lane is not one of them.
And, as usual, there's the typical social and philosophical difference between an acquiring company and the acquired company, e.g. the meeting about expense reports Don came late for and almost immediately left. I half-expected to hear him use the word "pettifogging" in his meeting later with Lane.
a_mob_hit-- I too would love to see some flashbacks to Don and Betty meeting, dating, their wedding, and the early years of their marriage! However we've already been told how and when they met. It was when Betty was modeling for a fur coat campaign. Don was working for the company as a copywriter. He asked her out and at first she refused. He noticed how much she loved the fur coat she was modeling and her reluctance to give it back. He bought it and had it sent to her. She was very impressed by this and then she agreed to date him. Don tells Anna about meeting Betty and that he fell for her at least in part because she was so beautiful and also because she seemed to be very happy.
Charredrex: yeah, and it also depended upon snow days and days school was cancelled during to inclement weather or some other untoward incident.
I remember June 24th being the latest day we were "held".
@ 60s Child - I noticed the pink outfit too. The question I have is why doesn't Betty want a boy?
@sab4ever - I agree---Don's being sent on a business trip, (maybe to the UK to "fix" something w/ the pp&L people?) , which is why in the previews an exasperated Betty says " I don't know what to say". She's reacting to being told he's going away and leaving her w/ a newborn, 2 kids and no help. Plus she now knows what happens on business trips.
I don't know if we'll ever find out why Dennis looked down. Lots of good theories, though.
Another funny line from this episode: "Are we through with the flogging:?"
Roger: "Yea, it's never as good as the build up" (Or something like that).
A friend and I watched together, and both of us had the same interpretation for Betty's hesitation at the top of the stairs at the end of the episode, one that I am surprised not to have seen here yet. What we both took away from the scene is that she thinks about going downstairs to prepare a bottle for the baby, but is so tired that she, completely unplanned, decides to just go and breastfeed him instead! It sets up an interesting scenario of her realizing that she IS important, and can provide something for the baby that no one else can---and it is really like Betty to be quietly rebellious...I don't know, maybe we both just found the thought that she would willfully neglect him just too much to bear. (For the record my mother had babies in '58. '65, '66, and '70 and always told me that she never breastfed any of us and never was given the least encouragement to do so).
For the next episode it says "Joan gets some unexpected news"
I really hope she isn't pregnant!
@amybett: I think Joan might already know she's pregnant, which is why she knew the name of a saleslady who could help her pregnant dinner guest gets some good looking maternity clothes. Watch that episode again...the other lady says something like "Joan knows everything" and Joan and her husband knowingly cut their eyes at each other.
I don't know if it was intentional, but the hospital scenes in The Fog gave an almost horror movie vibe. I found the nurses creepy. How about the scene at the end of the episode where Betty's hallucination theme (which sounds like the theme from Up btw) was playing as she was walking towards her crying newborn? I half expected her to walk into the room to find Sally standing over the crib, but something is something off with Mrs. Draper instead?
Its interesting how they brought in the civil rights issues on the periphery, but in case we didn't get it they had to throw in the name Martin Luther King, though at the same time it answered whom that the suited bleeding man that "spoke out" is indeed.
@Rasputin: I had the Dr. Spock book in 1960-61.
Dr. Benjamin Spock's "Baby and Child Care" was first published in 1945. It includes recipes for formulas and many pages on sterilizing water, equipment, nipples and bottles. No wonder Betty is reluctant to respond to infant Gene's crying!
Women who had babies after WWII were very breast-conscious. They believed that nursing would make their boobs look like the native women's in National Geographic magazine. Bottle feeding was terribly inconvenient, but middle class women did not want to be considered "peasants" and wanted the mobility that bottles give a mother. No embarrassing public nursing!
My hospital stay in both '66 and '69 were 4 days.I was under strong Iinfluence of my motherinlaw, who's experience in the mid '40s was that the expected stay was at least 10 days flat on yr back with nurses in a flurry of attendance and bringing baby at feeding times ..
Motherinlaw was incensed that I was up and out and expected to start tending baby immedately. She called her own OB guy, who lived across the street to register serious complaint about how things were being run at the hospital and expected that he would rush over to review me, baby and the entire distasteful episode...
My OB man had been hand picked for me by same motherinlaw and her bridge group... OB guy was the son or nephew of one of 'em, he was new and all the rage, but enuf enuf of new when ur 1st grandchild is the guinea pig......
Hystercial retelling here has made me realize that Betty wasn't the onliest one who lived a sur-real existance... I came thru it with stories to tell,perhaps she will as well...
@gimletgal - OMG! That would also explain how many viewers/commenters have noticed that she seems a bit larger recently...
Hi All. I'm new to the blog, but love, love, love this show. I just had to comment on the Dennis dissing Don scene. I think it's a little more than him just being embarrassed about opening up to Don. I think he knew he had already broken his promise to be a better man by drinking. He came to his wife's birthing with a bottle of booze. Even for Don who drinks like a fish this was a surprise. He obviously has a lot of problems - checking out the candy striper, described himself as "dangerous". My guess is he had probably told his wife he wouldn't drink any more and he had just gotten drunk again waiting for his child to be born. Don was a witness to his weaknesses, yes, but he also might have brought up the booze had they stopped to chat.
SixtiesGirl, you are right on target. In the time that passed after the birth , Dennis had already done something to go back on his rpomise. Seeing Don again made him feel guilty to the point he could not look him in the face.
My experience with eveery business I've belonged to:
When the management starts counting rubber bands and paperclips stingily.... it's an overall bad sign for their business in general...
When I've worked for "gangbusters" successes? Where money and good reputation are just flowing in? They don't bloody care how many post-it notes the employees are using.
@berrybananaz:
Yes, the hospital scenes were disquieting.
Of course, those were the days that hospital walls were painted that antiseptic "industrial" green.
Nowadays, hospital interiors are painted pretty colors, and no-one seems the worse off for it...
@amybett: yep. OR the writers are just throwing that out to see if we'll bite. However Joan's knowing she's pregnant would actually explain a lot regarding Joan this season. I think the unexpected news Joan will receive will be something else, like her husband not getting chief resident or something SC related.
Love this site!!
My thoughts... Although the schoolteacher/Don setup is obvious for a possible "fling"....I am not so sure that it will happen. The teacher is clearly taken with Don..but, can the same be said for him to that same degree? I think that she is NOT Don's type. She appears weak with her emotions as she calls the house after downing "a few" and confesses to Don that her father died when she was only 8 and then she gets all weepy. He softens to her at that point... but then he is brought back to reality when Betty calls out. He seems almost relieved for an excuse to hang up on this girl.
As far as the "FOG" in the title.... when Francine asks Betty how it was (the birth/delivery), Betty tells her that it was "all a fog".
Betty never wanted this baby. She closes her hand over the silkworm and we are not sure if she crushes it or not. There seem to be hints that something might happen to the baby. I wonder if there will be a SIDS tragedy for them and both Betty and Don will have to deal with their "guilt" and then perhaps there will be an effort to be "better" husbands, wives, parents, etc......will they succeed?
This episode gave me the creeps. Must be because of the dream sequences and the scene at the end. When I looked up how to spell caterpillar, I'm reminded that it's a larva. Betty closes her hand around it and holds on.
Betty is keeping herself in a place where she has yet to become a butterfly, spread her wings, express herself and fly outta there. First, she has to go into a cocoon state. The line that sticks in my mind is in her dream, Gene saying (something like) "You're a house cat. You are very important and you don't have much to do." I'll watch again and report back.
JC:
"You're a house cat. You are very important and you don't have much to do."
Is that not the most cryptic, David Lynch-ian line in the series so far?
(-;
After all the powerless moments Betty had to endure in the hospital (not to mention her marriage), she managed to flex what little power she had in naming her son Eugene.
Knowing that Betty was so sure it was going to be a girl, I was a little surprised that she didn't reject him. But it will be interesting to see how the rest of the family reacts once they get used to him being around.
Great show though I thought it was a bit obvious and overdrawn in terms of Betty's "arrested development".
The real question is where does she go from here.
The hospital scene was priceless. Drinking, smoking, and the "shut up and we'll do the work" attitude of the staff.
I'm not sure about dennis. The only thing I could guess was that something didn't turn out; after all it was a breach. Still, it seemed odd to leave that up in the air.
The admiral TV thing w/t race was fascinating. Peter is smart but perhaps not wise (no news there).
WTF was Duck thinking? That was incredibly unprofessional and downright stupid.
He knows enough to keep this on the QT but then invites them both on the ASSUMPTION that they are a unit. Even if that were true, he shouldn't assume it because if he's wrong then you have the situation of 3 people with a secret not to mention the acrimony but if he's right he might as well feel them out separately first and mention the other one as a possibility to each to see where that goes. It seemed like a stupid gamble to invite both as it had a huge downside and pretty much no upside (just one lunch vs 2! What a deal!)
What I'm really excited about is where the agency is going. In someways it looks like Don could be in trouble
1) I haven't seen him do anything godlike since the acquisiition
2) The company is annoying him to no end
3) Peggy could leave
4) Sterling is no longer an ally and even perhaps an enemy.
5) I get the feeling that the agency isn't doing so well.
Still, as a practical matter, how much lattitude is there in this show to have people leave the agency without writing them out of the script? Maybe that's not such a big deal becuase the show jumps around from person to person. It's not the "sterling cooper show"
I guess there's only so much trouble Don could be in. I believe he's probably rich enough to retire (and so there's no "hobo Don' in the future). Consider that Sterling clearly is quite rich. Don had 12.5% of the company. Sterling/Cooper+Sister split the rest. That would suggest something like 30% or so for Roger but then he probably had to give half that up for the divorce. And yet, he's still rich which would seem to imply that Don is pretty rich.
Furthermore, Don has a rep as a God not to mention that he is one of those people that can always land not just on their feet but at the top. He's talent. Why, with his looks he could be an actor! (-;
Still, the agency seems dysfunctional. Something's gotta give.
People. Stop with the "Dennis' wife must have lost the baby" stuff. If you watch the scene where Don and Dennis see each other in the hallway, Dennis and Wife are smiling, then Dennis' facial expression changes. One does not usually smile when a baby dies. As some of you have said, the man was probably just embarrassed for oversharing with Don. I don't think men have ever been all that comfortable sharing deep emotions, and this would have been especially true in that era.
Onto other things: If Betty is a "housecat," then "Fog rolls in on little cat feet," to quote Carl Sandburg. Not sure what is the significance is, but there you have it.
I always watch MadMen at least twice to catch all the little--and not so little--nuances. Try it!
As fascinating as the Betty labor scenes were, I thought the Peggy and Don scene was the best in the episode. There’s so much to it. Peggy sees the unfairness of not being paid the same as a man, but won’t get equal pay. She is dealing with the idea of her lost son while giving Don the baby present. And Don knows exactly what she’s thinking of when she fingers the baby shoe. “What if this is my time?” - Oh, I feel her pain. I wanted a good Pete/Peggy scene, and boy did I get it when she runs into Pete right after her encounter with don – “It’s my decision, Pete,” she says about taking up Duck’s offer. In response Pete gives this juicy double entendre, “Your decisions affect me.” What a scene! Elizabeth Moss deserves an Emmy just for that little bit alone.
57Chevy – I love the original Yours, Mine, and Ours! I came from a relatively small family and it fascinated me how they ran that household.
In the 80's and early 90's I use to work in NY(modeling while at University and years after) and I use to go on castings at both Ogilvy-Mather and also Grey Advertising. The other model, actresses I'd be waiting in the studio with (if the audition was held at a casting studio) or in the offices of the Ad agencies ,if we had managed a call-back and were called in to meet the casting director again or an art director or even sometimes the client at the agency. What I use to hear from the models and sometimes even the booking agents (at the modeling agency)was that Grey Advertising handled several large Ethnicnically diverse accounts. Ogilvy-Mather was always described as the cream of the crop, though, in Advertising. I would go to Ogilvy and see "Supermodels" in the waiting area, although they didn't wait long, from what I recall. I'm not sure, what was true then concerning the different stature of the agencies and their cient list , but seeing Mad Men showcase these agencies and bring in Grey during the begining of the Civil rights era, now, I wonder?
I think Don's gonna leave and start his own paper company.
Wait...wrong show. Seriously, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Don would start up his own company. He has the $$ from the merger and he has people more loyal to him than to SC. The only thing I can't see him doing is groveling, and it seems like he'd have to grovel some to SC folks that he'd want to take w/ him. Michael Scott he is not.