@McTwisty: Please come back. You are missed.

I am very anxious for this episode. I want to find out what is going happen next with Peggy.

Opening Scene Prediction: Betty and Grandpa

There's a separate thread for predictions, so we don't fill this one up too soon! Come on by... :)

Here we go again. Please somebody mark a starting line with a post right before the big show on Sunday!

LILY AND EVERYONE: WHAT HAPPENED TO SEASON 3, EPISODE 3. IT DISAPPEARED FROM THIS SITE ON MY COMPUTER!!!!!

Where is Duck?

Guess what? season 3, ep 3 appeared again. I guess Matt was just pulling my chain (ha).

Exnyr--Mr. Phillips earned his name and got shot out of the water by the English. That's two Mad Men let go because they couldn't handle the booze.
(See Jack Lemmon in "The Days of Wine and Roses")

@hannah good idea I nominate Hanna to divide the thread Sunday night

But Freddie could play Mozart with his zipper! What was the dog Duck had, was it an irish setter?

Sorry if somebody already brought this up but i simply can't read 800 post from last episode's thread. Is Don making a powerful enemy in Roger? Perhaps Roger finds out about Dick Whitman.

Hi all... good grief. "Excesstime" posted same sarcasm and inflammatory remarks on the Ep3 thread. I tried a civil response, i.e. that the bold line seems innocuous and why not ignore it.... but, like many are seeming to realize... this person is just looking for combat. Reasonable-ness does not seem to work. Oh well.

excesssarcasm excesspunctuation excessridiculous ;)

McTwisty, et al: C'mon over to my Drinking Songs thread and leave this stalker to him/her miserable self.

I shall repeat what I said before. SCROLL BUTTON! Just another master baiter.

Sally opens tomorrow. I'll betcha! Love you maddicts.

and McTwisty, I LOVE your swagger. Hang around. Don't be put off by a few goofs. This is fun and I, and I'll bet others, like having you here. Tomorrow's another episode. Can't wait.

yes, master baiters--perfect. They are little creeps who crawl around in the dark on message boards because--well, they have nothing better to do.
Scroll, ignore because it is no point--they just create new clever little names anyhow.
Yawn...boring.

Meanwhile...looking forward to next episode; looks like the writers have great things cooking. Like that Don knows he can hand the job to Sal.

You know, if there's one thing that most of us kiddies know who've grow up on forums (such as myself) it's this: Don't. Feed. The. Troll.

Ever.

How do we know this? We'll, as excited fledgelings on our first boards (terribly earnest and giddy with justice!) we too eventually ran into that internet specimen known as Le Troll. Convinced we could either a) make the misunderstood wrongdoer see the light with glorious reason and charity, or that b) his vile mutterings must be challenged (cue heroic music!), we argued. Or, in forum speak, we fed the troll.

What did this do? Well, it gave him exactly what he wanted (and they're usually a he, no offense to the male gender). Attention. Targets. Self-importance. And above all, the sheer •fun• of riling up alot of indignant people he could care less about, having the empathy of a semi-comatose clam shell.

Feed them, they thrive. Ignore them, and they try and up the game posting more and more frequently, personally, and vilely for awhile...but then eventually a) overstep so far they are booted or b) get bored and look for greener pastures. Don't get me wrong, trolling has definitely actually destroyed some forums with controlled internet attacks, but that's incredibly unlikely on a corporate forum such as this.

So please, next time you feel compelled to respond OR discuss, remember that you are only ensuring more grief. And that you are not, in fact, responding to a reasonable person, but someone who gets thrills from incitement. And for that matter, is probably one 16 year old boy (or more, if someone found this forum fertile trolling ground and recommended it to others).

That's all I myself is going to say on the subject, and I know this all sound like common sense; but based on the amount of time people have spent discussing Monty and others this week, I thought it important lay the problem out very clearly.

Pardon the length, and thank you.

Llama, well said. I will heed this advice. 'nuf said.

So Pegggy's going to move to Manhattan? That's what Joan suggested to her when they first met. Just a thought: When Joan's husband does attack her, and we know he will, where will she go for a safe harbour? Peggy's, I bet. Just like Don called upon her after the accident. Just like she handled Bobbie Barrett. I can see Joan showing up at Peggy's door one day.

just noticed that Ryan Cutrona, Grandpa Gene, played a judge in The Changeling(2008). Gene Hofstadt has rapidly become one of my favorite characters on the show. his scenes with Sally and Carla are among the most compelling, and believable scenes. Of course they will probably knock him off now.

Llama...Thanks for your excellent observations! For various reasons which needn't be noted here, .this site is my first experience/adventure in "talk" posting, starting about halfway thru ep2.

Your are very right that it is important to lay the probelm out very clearly, and you certainly did. I erred twice. Once in trying to make a civil response to a troll - to find that it didn't work any better than a pointed admonition would have. And once in responding to an unwarranted ugly remark directed at me ... (not to mistakenly imply that any ugly remarks are ever warranted - they're not.)

I know this can't happen, but its fun to think of a sort of foyer for newbies leading to the talk site in which your commentary would be prominently posted. I know I wish I'd seen it!

All that said, I am with DeepDish.... will heed this advice. Thanks again

I'm guessing Duck, Freddie, and the Barretts are gone, except for the occasional cameo, if that.

They have been replaced by Gene and the British guys. And, I guess, Connie.

Not an event swap. Not even close.

Hi Hobo... you hadn't yet appeared when I started to write to Llama. Good morning! (I'm trying to take note of how these delays work in the pipeline, also am very slow/bad typist - takes me a long time to post anything)... so... I completely concur about Gene, scenes w/ Sally & Carla, etc. I also liked the very uncomfortable family lunch scenes in S2 - for me they were hard to watch, but very compelling.
We know we will see him tonight.... but think you are right... for how long. Will they knock him off soon, or will it the the Parker (?) home...?

Those of you that are so concerned about off-topic posts are dangerously close to being off topic.

To Scotch and Soda: Yes, Duck's dog was a beautiful Irish setter. And I'm certain that I saw that dog again in one of the Season 3 previews.

It would be cool to see Chauncey the dog again... another poster whose name escapes me (Drat CRS) made a great observation re the query "whatever happened to Duck".....

"Duck was mauled by Chauncey up in Bed Stuy"

Thought the dog who played Chaunce is beautiful, and did a great job....

Heh, heh...that was me, Melba! I speculated that maybe Duck was mauled to death by Chauncey in Bedford Stuy.

Dobiegirl.... have one word for you... Bravo! And mauled to death no less... an even better fate for a clueless, heartless person who woud do that to a dog! lol, and thanks. (I won't forget again!)

is tonight a new episode
I thought someone said last week it was postponed till next week

I predict the reference to Jackie being pregnant last week doesn’t bode well for Betty. Jackie Kennedy’s third child was born on August 7th 1963 and died two days later of a respiratory illness.

The reference to Jackie being pregnant was made to the guest at Joan's, not Betty. Just a note on that: I was born Sept. 2, 1963 so it's fun to see someone pg with "me." Also, my younger son was born with the same problem as Patrick Kennedy but hapilly 36 years later it wasn't fatal. (he's now 10)

I'm telling you - Kitty is pg

Oh my God! Sally has the coolest Grandpa ever!!

@Lucky Strike: No kidding!!!

LOL..maybe they"ll share abrew and catch a game!

Betty to her father translation: Can't you die quietly old man and leave me alone!

Bobby speaks!

The mute kid speaks! I like the original Bobby better.

@Lucky Strike: Again, right on the money!! Gene is selfish? "I'm your little girl!!"

"It's a dead man's hat. Take it off."

Kitty: ever since your trip to Baltimore things have been different. I got the air conditioning fixed and everything!

SAL: I'm not myself.
WIFE: What does that mean?
SAL: That means I'm totally gay you crazy broad!

I think Kitty should have an affair with Ken Cosgrove. Maybe even a 3 way?

I wonder if Sal was so caught up in his work that he let his guard down, or, if he subconsciously outed himself to his wife in response to the pressure of recent personal events, including his wife's prior questioning...

LOL @Lucky. I think he said just the same in his reenactment of the Patio spot.

Lois! Hooray! Hey -- maybe Kitty should move in with her!

The look on Kitty's face after Sal sashayed about the bedroom is the look of a chick that now knows her husband is not into chicks AT ALL -- no matter how half-naked, sexy, and horny they are.

Poor Kitty. Her entire marriage flashed before her eyes...and she's no longer in it.

If Sal had put a little kick into his routine, I think Kitty would have had a heart attack right there.

I want Kitty's nightgown.

Gee, what a great granddad. :Snif: I wish I knew mine....

And that helmet would be worth a small fortune today.

and bwahaha, poor Peggy. Even still, she was still nice to that caller at the end of the line...

You said it TexRex96: Sal got so excited (about the commercial) that he outed his own damn self!

Sally has the same hair style as Peggy.

Well it's 1963. My guess is that Kitty now knows there is a bigger problem than once thought, and the gay thing probably have crossed her mind. But I'm not sure the pink elephant in the room was immediately intuitive to her. I wouldn't be surprised to see her go on a little investigation.

I think the look on Kitty's face during his "Patio" dance was priceless.. I think she had a small night light moment if not a full light bulb moment.

Yep, Kitty 'gets it' after that little performance. Very good way to let her know, without hitting her where it hurts! LOVE Sally driving the Continental! My brother (13 years older) taught me to drive when I was 9- we did the same thing Sally was doing. Very funny.
This is a better show than last week's--with more undercurrents. I'm also on the same page that Joan will end up at Peggy's one of these days.

"I want Kitty's nightgown"

I want Besty's and Sally's mommy and daughter matching ones.

Joan to Peggy: I have a friend named Carol who's looking for a cute little rommate like you.

Did anyone else think Don's father's picture looked eerily like Gene??

@pi168: I don't think it was a "small" lightbulb moment, I think it was floodlights. I also think she's going to be hiding her nightgowns from Sal.

Kitty's look reminded me of Alma's in Brokeback Mountain (Michelle Williams), right after catching Ennis and Jack stealing a kiss...

Is Joan trying to stir up trouble with advice to Peggy on the roommate ad? I don't think so... Good stuff!

Zabadu - no, but whoa baby - all that cash????

Peggy doesn't like sailors because she's afraid of seamen...

wierd smell sensitivity?
gramps going to have a heart attack?

Damn –– Grandpa's dead! And just when he was starting to grow on me!

I also like the Joan-Peggy roommate prospect. It would be a nice way for Weiner to start bring the core character stories closer together and temper the influx of so many extemporaneous characters this season.

Didn't see Gene's death coming, though I see more trouble for Sally to come.

yep ...knew that smell thing was a sign...
glad he went out before he became a creepy perv.

They didn't take long to kill off Gene, now did they?

Now those of you worried of molestation can now feel bad for Sally losing the only ally she had in that house.

pi - is that a sign? I've never heard that before. What was up with how mean he was to Bobby? And poor little Sally - I'll bet she never eats peaches again. (BTW - peaches are not in season in May are they?)

@pi168: Helluva call on the heart attack,

I regret every saying anything bout Gramps!! Guilt feelings on my part, oh yeah! Why didn't that officer make Bets sit down, seeing her pregnant and all? Don is such a sweetheart.

LOVED the look between Peggy and Don after the "failure."

"It's not Ann Margret." That was my thought after viewing the commercial.

For the poster who wrote that he or she was looking forward to seeing more of Gene - well, unless they have an open casket, I guess you're SOL.

Classic client: "It's just wrong, but I can't quite tell you why".

Nice, awkward (funny) scene, between Peggy and future-roomie.

Alpha-secretary-mama, Joan - comes to Peg's rescue again.
Loved that.

Whoa. I love this show.

Don is a sweetheart, yes, among other things. I wonder if Sal shot a take of him as Ann-Margret doing that spot. I might pay to see that.

"I think Kitty should have an affair with Ken Cosgrove. Maybe even a 3-way?"
~NancyinOhio

Nancy,
Three-ways are difficult enough even when everyone involved is a heterosexual. (Don't ask.) If I were Ken, I don't think I would want the gay guy in there thinking I'm there for his pleasure.

Lucky Strike

Is that a real lisp on Sally? It's awful! I've never seen her in anything else.

OFF TOPIC
It actually could be a sign of stroke...
it was weirdly one of the the things that led to me having brain surgery...the blood was backing into my brain and it over stimulated the olfactory senses

ON TOPIC
Poor Sally!!!!!!! her only buddy :(

Sally, future arsonist. Lord!

Steph... My friends seem to think the actress (Sally) does in fact, have a lithp in real life. :)

Wow, I never noticed how huge that lisp is on Sally. Apparently it's much more pronounced when she is angry.

Now THAT was a great episode! See what happens when you have a little patience people?

Lucky -- thanks for the insight LOL!

There was an interview with someone who says that yes, Sally speaks the same way out of character.

I see many, many nightmares in Sally's future. Don gave Betty a very "are you kidding" look when she sent Sally to watch TV, but I was disappointed he didn't comfort her somehow.

I'm sorry, I don't think that litle girl would have given that speech at the end. That sounded to me like an adult talking, not a child. Did not seem realistic to me.

@Chi-u funny!
Re: smell, I missed it, am re-watching, but they did that in Soprano's when Carmine Lupertazi was on the golf course, he said he smelt burning hair, then collapsed. I believe it is an actual sign, my father had something similar.

If you watch the repeat, check out the pic of Don's dad again. I think he looked like Gene. And the mother seemed to be out of focus....

ATD has been making a lot of Sally's lisp. I think it's more noticeable this year because she has so many more lines. She's a little Thindy Brady.

Is the new roommate related to someone at McCann Erickson?

Mom's reaction to Peggy was a bit harsh, but I supposed in her grief over the death of the Holy Father it's understandable. It was fine that Peggy had an affair with a married man and had his baby and ended up on the psych ward, but moving to Manhattan? HORRORS!

ATD has been making a lot of Sally's lisp. I think it's more noticeable this year because she has so many more lines. She's a little Thindy Brady.

Is the new roommate related to someone at McCann Erickson?

Mom's reaction to Peggy was a bit harsh, but I supposed in her grief over the death of the Holy Father it's understandable. It was fine that Peggy had an affair with a married man and had his baby and ended up on the psych ward, but moving to Manhattan? HORRORS!

@KBF-yes, that did seem out of place. I couldn't place it, but something did seem askew.

Kitty's nightgown would be fetching on the bellhop!

I WON! I WON AGAIN!!! (Silent) Bobbie was the first person out the Draper's front door, first down the Sraper's front steps, Sally & Gene following him! I Won, StephanieJo.

@KBF: Bobbie speaks!

My parents use to go watch Jai alai but we lived in Florida..
I don't think it ever was popular elsewhere was it?

NancyInOhio...LOL for the sailor line.

Well, I predicted Gene wouldn't pick up Sally, but I didn't dream of the reason why!

Ok Maddicts, please stop-I can't stop laughing! This thread is so light and fun tonight...have we all finished our martini's? We should have a contest who's the funniest on here. I can't pick.

Poor Sally, lost the only person who thought she was special - I see angry radical feminist in her future, and understandably so.

@racy-Hey, you're good!! Congrats, fur sure! I still may be getting this certain prize. I'll know soon.

I recall jai alai when I was very young, circa 1972. It was a bit eccentric then and a notch below lawn darts and bocce ball.

The Pope, referenced a lot tonight, died June 3, 1963. So we have not moved much since last week (the Kentucky Derby was June 5). We've advanced one, maybe two days. Perhaps the JFK assassination is next season?

The scene where the co-workers were pranking calling Peggy on the phone reminded me of Bart and Lisa calling Moe's Tavern -- hilarious stuff tonight!

@TexRex96 - We've advanced a month. The Derby party was on May 4.

Did anyone else start cracking up when Grandpa Gene pulled out that lacy red fan? "There was this girl..." Indeed!

I bet Bobby learned some new vocabulary!

Very funny moment in a bleak episode. Poor Sally. I thought Don would redeam his toolishness by comforting her after her outburst...but no. Bah!

LOL dobiegirl hubs said the same thing!
Only threw in "mother hating radical who moves to haight ashbury and burns her bra"

I did predict that Gene would die. Do I get extra credit? :)

JFK assassination will not be dealt with directly but rather in terms of how badly it screws up Margaret Sterling's wedding. The first season ended at Thanksgiving 1960; S2 ended in Oct. 1962. I think the wedding date is a clear indication where this season will end.

After Gene gives Betty his will and wishes, she says: "I'm your little girl and I know it must be horrible to look at what you're looking at, but can't you keep it to yourself?" stomp stomp stomp... Holy cow! I mean, I know she's 9 months pregnant, but talk about insensitive!

I also noticed a comment from Gene when trying to cajole Sally into eating ice cream with him: "Are you afraid you're going to be fat like she [Betty] was?" Did we know that before about Betty?

It was also very telling about the times when the adults sent a crying Sally to go watch TV while they discussed Gene's death, and she ended up watching the story of the Buddhist monk who set himself on fire, an event I remember very clearly.

My favorite moment of tonight's episode, though, was the very end, when Don made sure both Betty and Sally were asleep and then put the folding bed Gene had been using back into storage, so they didn't have to decide when to do it or watch it go. I thought that was sweet.

MUCH better episode tonight!

Did anyone else recognize Sally's doll? A friend of mine had the doll when I was Sally's age but I can't remember its name.

@zabadu you are probably right -- I had bad information. I also agree with @NancyinOhio that the season will end on November 22.

I'm starting to really notice the poor treatment of the kids by both Don and Betty. Most parents would make the time to be with the kids after a live-in grandparent's passing, explaining death, comforting. Not here. Is this part of the "children should be seen and not heard" era, or, are the Drapers atypical, and a little less cohesive as a family than their contemporaries?

Definitely best episode so far this season! Another appropriate title for this episode could have been "Fathers and Sons." I think one reason it was so good as this is probably a topic close to Mr. Weiner's heart. I read an in-depth article/interview about him a year or two ago, and I think he struggled with his parents' expectations when he was younger (before he was so successful).

I like the foreshadow of JFK's death with the talk about the Pope dying, and also the reference to Joe Kennedy Sr. Particularly in light of Teddy's recent passing... Again, great episode!

I absolutely love the fact that when watching this show, being patient and reflective pays off. We are able to gain a sense of character and depth of emotion in this show that so many other shows are afraid to develop because they don't have any trust in the intelligence level and commitment of their audience. Recently, I've really enjoyed paying attention to all of the small moments that focus on the difference between parenting in the 60's and parenting today. I mean, letting Bobby open the package with a giant knife? They could never get away with that so nonchalantly in a show set in modern-day.

pi168 - My parents use to go watch Jai alai but we lived in Florida..

My high school used to hold graduation in a Jai Alai fronton. It closed the year before I graduated so it was held in a community college gym w/ no air conditioning. That's pretty harsh for Florida in June.

Sal's wife needs 'tending.' Wonder if her realization fully formed after watching him perform. She really seemed freaked out after right after that.

Kitty's nightgown on the bellhop!!! ha!

Sally is a hippie in the making... (or feminist too @dobiegirl) Poor thing she wants to talk about her feelings and no one else does, then the monk burns himself on the same day her Grandpa dies!!! That is impossible to erase from her memory!

@zabadu the step-mother was blurry in the picture...
Don was really thinking about his father because of Gene? But all that $$$ whoa!

Also of importance? Pete wasn't in on the meeting with the SC higher-ups about the Jai Alai kid."they're going to have trouble with that J"

Dear Kitty:

Call me. I will take care of your tending if Sal is negligent.

WARNING: POTENTAILLY STUPID QUESTION

Is that the same Kitty?

Poor little Sally. I am only a few years younger than this character would be, and I remember the photo of the burning monk like it was yesterday. It was the most horrible thing I had ever seen. What a bitch Betty is! "Go watch TV" is all she ever says to Sally!!

@pi168 - Yes, it's the same Kitty.

Anyone still want to defend that Betty is a good mother?

TexRex96 - I recall jai alai when I was very young, circa 1972. It was a bit eccentric then and a notch below lawn darts and bocce ball.

Well...it is a Basque game.

So Peggy's roommate is the period bleeder from 'Superbad'? The wannabe porn star from 'Californication'? LoL. She sure is stereocast.

A minor nitpick: Peggy says that she gets runs in her pantyhose on the cane seats on the train. Pretty sure they didn't have pantyhose in 1963.

I think it's funny, I barely noticed the money in the drawer. How much did it look like he had?

Wondering about the significance of Don breaking the ant farm now.... He sure pulled off a smooth recovery.

So I'm re-watching the bedroom scene where Sal is doing the Patio dance. Is the guy who plays Sal gay in real life? Because if he's not, they should skip over the Emmy, kick it up a few notches and give this guy an Oscar. Between kissing bellhops and that fancy little dance, he is showing some real talent and commitment to this role.

@Ruth: Pantyhose started selling in 1959. We've discussed it here before and how all the women who lived through it loved ditching their girdles!

I do not believe that the parenting of Don and Betty is "poor" - it's just different. We come from such a warm-fuzzy mentality towards parenting where many parents would rather be their child's friend than their parent. The separation between the adult and the child world is not terrible. I don't feel that they are cold.

I admit, I've been trying really hard to believe in Betty, but I've got just the smallest bit of faith now (and most of that's due to stubbornness). She really, really dropped the ball in this episode in a very unforgivable way. Warner seems to be deliberately attempting to make her as utterly unsympathetic as possible, especially compared to the other characters. I wonder why?

@Lucky Strike: Yep, Bryan Batt is gay in real life.

And yes - Sal is gay in real life.

@Speechie: I was born in 1961. My parents were definitely not warm and fuzzy. But Betty is Attila the Hun! Neither parent could spare a hug.

@ Speechie. dude. Dude. DUDE! SERIOUSLY!

The kids grandpa died and she leaves the devastated child on the front porch with the door closed in her face! Jesus Christo! If that's not bad parenting, what is? Ritual combat with alligators??!

@ruth I think there were pantyhose then, but they were quite expensive? Remember when Bertam Cooper's sister won't take off her shoes in his office because her pantyhose "cost more than his carpet"

"By pi168 on September 6, 2009 10:45 PM

wierd smell sensitivity?
gramps going to have a heart attack?"

Right before Carmine Lupertazzi had a stroke, in The Sopranos, he and Tony were having lunch and Carmine smelled burnt hair. Wonder if Matt W wrote that?

Sal's wife is hot as hell and begging for sex from him.... Damn!

OMG, stop with the pantyhose, we covered that in Season 1. LOL And I agree w Llama, there seems to be a deliberate effort to make Betty as unsympathetic as possible.

Anybody else think that Ho Ho guy, or whatever his name is, looked a little like ANdy Kauffman when he dressed up like that?

@Llama!! LOL!! At least Don looked like he cared that Betty ripped into Sally, but Betty sure didn't.

I just don't think that if I heard for the first time about my father passing ( and I was hormonal and pregnant) my first response would be , "How is my daughter?" Betty has her own emotions and devastations to work through as well. I'm not saying she's "Mother of the Year", but I can be sympathetic towards the situation.

Don said: (to bobby) you're wearing a dead man's hat!

Aha! So Gene and Gloria WERE married! Who said that?

Wow - closing the front door on Sally takes the prize. There is no forgiveness for Betty. Whatever counter-culture Sally moves on to, she is entitled to act out . And I don't think it is related to middle class emotional suppression, Betty is pure narcissist. Hope she get's her tubes tied after this one.

Nothing hit the "we-just-don't-talk-about-uncomfortable-feelings" theme of this show, more than Betsy yelling at a child, A CHILD, to essentially shut up about death.

Wow.

... Speaking of that, just remembering the "I'm your little girl" response (*barrier) of Betsy, when Gene was simply and lucidly trying to inform her of the arrangements.

Double wow.

There was an atmosphere of merriment in this episode (until Grandpa Gene's demise) that was missing in the first two this season. The phone call of unguents and ointments, tanneries and hospitals had us all laughing for minutes afterwards. And Sal's Ann Margaret moment was priceless (although Kitty's stunned, pained expression reminded one of the seismic tremors she'll face in her marriage). Was anyone else fascinated to discover Ruth had worked in a drafting office and was more like Sally than her own daughter? I thought Weiner et al were pointing out the New Woman of the 1920s had more in common with their granddaughters of the 1960s than their own daughters of the 1950s. I feel a Betty Friedan feminine mystique and nascent feminist movement theme emerging this season with Betty, Joan, Peggy, and Sally.

I felt more warmth out of Betty tonight esp. when Gene was going over his estate planning, she got all upset just hearing about it. I could relate to her on that one. She seemed softer.
I just saw Don's bundle again, but couldn't count it quick enough! "MadMoney"

I think Don was moved to look back at his father after the comment made by the client's father about how you never know how kids are going to turn out.

Loved Gene telling Sally she's smart and could be whatever she wanted and to pay no attention to her mother if she told her otherwise.

9 months pregnant or not I wanted to b****slap Betty tonight for her treatment of her father. "Little girl"? what kind of fantasy world is she living in? She's in her thirties with 2 going on 3 kids. Newsflash, Betts: you haven't been a little girl in a couple of decades.

Funny reversal of Anita and her mother attitudes towards Peggy. Used to be mom supported her and Anita made the snide remarks.

I could almost see Joan and Peggy as roommates but not this season. Joan still has to shed the RB and Peggy has more growing up to do. I don't know how Peggy's going to do with a roomie; she seems the type to want her own space.

Who's gonna tell Bert his ant farm is all over the office?

I was born 1956 and my parents were warmer than Don and Betty but parenting was different. Children were not made the center of the universe. Betty is pregnant, no legal abortion available, stuck raising children, riding horses, and watching her husband do anything he wants. Yes she is angry and stuck. Great show and attention to period details. Good article about Matt in recent Vanity Fair.

@Speechie. It's understandable that you might not automatically think of your child's feelings when you hear of your own parents death, I suppose, maybe, perhaps...but is sure as heck isn't understandable when the kid is standing *right there* and you don't even take the fool time to cuddle them, especially knowing that they were close to the deceased! Seriously man, c'mon!

As my mama always says, "Grive for the dead, tend to the living." Shock aint no excuse not to make sure the most vulnerable are held.

Any fans of "Bones" out there notice that now two of the rotating interns are on Madmen? The british "secretary" was Nigel the intern, and now Peggy's new roommate (who played the chatty Daisy who is now dating Dr. Sweets)- strange!

My heart broke for Sally on this episode and I felt really angry at Betty when she literally shut the door on her daughter.

The three men with "Daddy issues" (Don, Pete, and Hoho (?) eating together at the fancy red restaurant was quite the scene as well.

Peggy's sister seems to have dropped her hostility and anger towards Peggy doesn't she?

Loved Peggy's knowing look at Don after the ad campaign failed that she told him was a loser to begin with.

Sally was so pleased to be driving that car...I love how her character is advancing.

@jan001 Agreed - I can't believe how ungrateful Betty was when her father laid out all his arrangements for her! That's a lot of responsibility to put together, she was only thinking of herself.

Peggy's sister seemed warmer to her this show. But I wish Peggy had the courage to give her mother the speech she gave Olive last episode!

Sally's going to spend a lot of dough on therapy some day.

StephanieJo: You felt warmth from Betty? Hmm. I felt fear, terror...Humanity... I guess, but warmth? I can relate to not wanting to deal with mortality, I'm goin' through similar stuff now... I never wanted to have to deal with that kind of stuff, but I will... With a support system. It's just none of the folks in this show - actually have friends, TRUE friends, that they can really be vulnerable to / with. NOBODY.

Try and name a relationship, where someone has really "come clean" in the show to someone else...

Nokomis "My high school used to hold graduation in a Jai Alai fronton. It closed the year before I graduated so it was held in a community college gym w/ no air conditioning. That's pretty harsh for Florida in June."

Did you by chance go to school in the Daytona Beach area?

@KBF - Nah, no therapy...just lots of dropping out and turning on in Sally's future...

Best episode this season.. A lot of great moments
1. Betty's dad dying
2. Kitty realizing Sal is gay
3. Little Sally driving the Lincoln
4. Pope dying

Not a lot of Joan or Roger in this episode...hmm
no wonder we had a great episode

There are previews for the next episode that seem to show Don and Betty at school discussing a scratching and hair-pulling problem - sounds like Sally's acting out in the wake of Grandpa Gene's death. Poor kid, she'll get no sympathy from mom.

There has been a lot of mention of The Feminine Mystique
But 1963 also brought the publishishing of Fascinating Womanhood which encouraged women to embrace "traditional" roles of motherhood and wife and be happy making a home for their man.

that was my first post up here so everything i wanted to say i forgot...uggh i hate that

For the last time, Duck was signed by the Philadelphia Eagles.

That was so typical...Sally's grandfather dies, & to the adults, it's all about Betty & William. Same thing happened to me at that age. Adults expected you to have a relationship w/ an elderly parent, & when it's over, & the grandparent dies, well, Sally is just a kid. No need to think about what she's feeling. I thought her speech about laughter was good, and was like a kid to be upset about the "laughing" part.

@NancyinOhio: Your joke about Peggy not liking "seamen". Yes, I got it. Yeech.

@Laurie B. & MELBATOAST: Thanks both of you for crossing your fingers for me. I'll post as soon as I hear the job is mine.

@fancynancy: I felt the same way you did. Don didn't have to say out loud, "She's drunk!" Don could quietly have said, "I think she's had a little too much to drink." Don wanted it to be a slap in the face.

@Fancynancy: For the interview I wore a navy suit, from Macy's, w/ white piping on the jacket, sheer hose & VERY tall navy shoes, w/ that exaggerated pointed toe, that's in style. I wore 2 rings and earrings. I have blondish-red hair which comes to my shoulders, & was cut in layers, so it swung around very "sassy". One interviewer said afterward that he thought I was "Gorgeous!" I'm 53, you know, no one has described me that way in quite a while. But, I looked very "New York", & that's what I was hoping for. I'd still like you to look at my closet. Alot of nice clothes, but it's a mismatch. Hey, are stockings supposed to match the skirt or match the shoes? I usually match shoes w/ skirt.

scene1
setting the bedroom of a cozy home in upstate NY
Scantily attired woman propped up in bed
" Honey, I don't need much,but I need some tending"
Man approaches bed from left
"I'd love to help you out honey, but I want to post on AMC's MadMen forum.
Woman "Tend me TEND ME NOW
Man "But the website.
Man looks to monitor on desk back to wife in bed. fade to black

Sorry fellow Maddicts I'm back. what a terrific yet totally sad episode

@Chi-I'm reaching, but how bout Barrett's wife & Peggy. She really opened up to Pegster. A child being told she can have the fur coats and where the key is hidden, tough stuff. Peggy's acting seemed a little off at that time, some other character while at the table. Maybe it hit a nerve in her real life?

Pope John died June 3, 1963. There was no mention of the new Pope Paul who became pope June 21. So the episode is probably somewhere between those dates. What was the date of the Buddist monk setting himself on fire? Betty's "parenting" looked bad by today's standards. But death was handled differently back then. Don didn't even mention why he was leaving the office. It was considered a personal issue not shared in the workplace. I remember having the same reaction as Sally at a wake for a family member at that time when I heard people laughing. I thought it was wrong. Kids weren't really included in the whole event. I also remember my parents going to a wake for someone and leaving me and my sister waiting out in the car. I really identified with Sally tonight. The scene with Peggy's mother also hit home. I grew up in an Irish neighborhood, but the Irish mothers were just as good at laying on the guilt trip. I really enjoyed tonight's episode.

so much to comment on here is one observation
Did anyone notice the accent on the Patio exec. same southern lilt as the Lucky Strike owner and same first reaction. Maybe if Don told him "It's Toasted" they could have kept the client

Ok gang, I thought this was great, did you catch the jai alia guy calling Pete "Humps"? The chip-n-dip episode, before Pete gets shot down by the girl he runs into, the tennis guy who lets us know Pete's nickname was Humps.

Sally and the car. Remember last year, I think twice there were references to Bobby and the car (one time was when Don came home with the kids and Betty says to Bobby, "I'm surprised Daddy let you in the car"), so here we see Bobby first in the car, but then cut to Gene not exactly driving. Right then you know your jaw dropped. Tell me these episodes haven't been crafted great.

The Olson household smacking the tv, how great was that.

What may have been lost with Kitty's disappointment in Sal was how she was EXACTLY Jennifer with Harry, asking him about work, building him up etc. That was great.

Speaking of such, besides Sal being efeminate in his expression of work, she had just told him he could be the "conquering hero". And then he prances; the juxstaposition of ideas.

But one of the major points is, overall thematically we have another disappointed Sterling Coo wife.

Bert Cooper is childless, if it matters.

The crank calls, ahhh memories.....
Ok beside that, nice to see Lois back. But, of course, she's (like last year with info on the merge) being yet again just used by the guys. That was the other factor. Poor Lois.

So now we have another clue on Don: Abigail and Archie. Is this going to, eventually, tie in with (many more steps down the line of course) the first scene is ep1..? And, If you notice, they pulled this little thing tonight the same way they first pulled Anna last year.

Favorite line of the night, from Don regarding business with Price right there:
"Don't stop 'till you see the whites of his pocket"

Betty picking up the kids, and Bobby is trampling through the bushes rather than the sidewalk.

How about, yet again twice now, a Peggy and Don (non-suggestive just interesting) mutual look. Did you see that?

For the second episode in a row, Don caring for Betty at the end....

Bobbie Barrett's wife and Peggy... Hmmm... There was some candid stuff there, but... I don't know how gut-wrenching vulnerable it was. It was still from a place of higher status.

I guess, it can be thrown in the ring though, as an example. :)

Where do you live, StephanieJo? And, if I may - your age?

grits Did you by chance go to school in the Daytona Beach area?

Next door in Brevard. It was the Melbourne fronton I watched so many other graduations in.

@producerbonnie who at 11:33 PM wrote:
"OMG, stop with the pantyhose, we covered that in Season 1."

Hey Bonnie,
Get over yourself! Do you own these boards? Let people talk about what they want to talk about! That is what we come here for. Just because a topic was covered before and YOU are bored with it doesn't mean it can't be discussed again among those who want to talk about it. No one is making you participate or comment on THAT particular topic so why do you feel the need to stop others? You control nothing here so stop trying too. Sheesh -- you freakin' forum Nazis kill me with this stuff!

~Lucky Strike!

Chocolate ice cream does sometimes smell like oranges...but who the heck puts salt on ice cream? That's just a recipe for a heart attack...poor Gene.

@Pattyo - June 11, 1963.

Greg -Ok gang, I thought this was great, did you catch the jai alia guy calling Pete "Humps"? The chip-n-dip episode, before Pete gets shot down by the girl he runs into, the tennis guy who lets us know Pete's nickname was Humps.

Pete did tell Don they went to Dartmouth together....

FYI: The clip for next week's show is up and is quite engrossing. :)

nokomis: My late husband graduated from the fronton In Daytona Beach in the mid 70s....I was just wondering. :) Must have been a common thing in FL....like graduating from a church sanctuary in the area where I grew up.

@Chi-NJ/CA, 2nd question, u know the rule on that one...never ask a girl her age! (we'll just lie anyway!)
@Lucky-do you have to use the word Nazi? It's been a light thread so far, but anything can happen, right?

Do you think Sal's little dance was Kitty's "aha" moment? The look on her face afterward seemed to indicate (as we used to say in Massachusetts) "dawn breaks over Marblehead."

Just to let you know, in the blogs where there are stills from this episode and a couple from the next, the last picture (#38) is a wonderful shot of Don and Sally eating bacon and eggs at what looks like the middle of the night. Such wonderful expressions on their faces - looks like daddy and daughter are having a good moment.

@MC I think it was, poor girl. But better she realize now, so she can stop blaming herself for Sal's lack of interest, which I'd be surprised if she wasn't doing. Poor woman. So few options and so much misery. Sal's a cad for marrying her (and yes, I understand the social pressures he must have been under, but it's still a horrific thing to do to someone).

StephanieJo: Of course I know the rule. But that rule's for real life, not thread life. :)

So, at least lie to me...

And yes, Mcmere: That was definitely the no-doubt, lightbulb moment. RE: Kitty.

StephJo: So you live in two places at once. I guess you can divide your age in half too.

:)

The teacher in the previews is the MayPole dancer, no?

Yes this evening's episode was the one I've been waiting for all season...seems we're back to the great writing.

I too felt really sorry for Sally; and no Betty's lack of empathy and compassion is NOT reflective of the time as I was about the same age as Sally in '63 and my mom was also pregnant and way more compassionate than Betty...the Drapers merely lack tangible parenting skills ( well except for Don's muted attempts at support and compassion.) Betty wasn't much better with her dad and I wish her years of guilt when she looks back on his attempt to share his "final wishes" with her and all she can she could say was "I'm your little girl"....what a selfish woman.

I feel sorry for both Kitty and Sal....living in "half step" bound by so much denial must be exceedingly painful.

Thought that exchange between Don and Pete over the Jai Lai account was priceless...Pete is so tied up in his "youth" and Inherited wealth/pedegree that he can't see what an ass his client is and how short sited this campaign is going to be and just be cause the client has a million bucks to spend doesn't mean the ad campaign no matter how well executed might wind up making the firm look ridiculous. Just my humble opinion.

ChiCreg,
I know Stephaniejo from band camp
she is 24 and worked as a swim suit model to put herself through MIT

@Llama the clip for next week almost makes you feel sorry for Betty, as cold as she can seem, who does she really have for emotional support. I mean Don has been stepping it up some, but how can she regain trust in a cheating husband, or was there ever any to begin with?

@Chi: another thread was started about where we're all from, refer back a few, it's a good one. No ages listed, though.
@Scotch&Soda: I posted the same thing! Funny.

Nakomis, Pete/Humps is this episode referencing something from season 1, and it showing up again here in semi-obscure fashion.

grits - The high schools didn't have big enough gyms or auditoriums to hold everybody for graduation and because of the weather they didn't use the football stadiums. Alternate sites were used, and even then they might limit the number of family members that attended.

Where in god's name would THAT thread be? Ugh.

I won't bother... I guess it's not important.

I'm from Chicago (thus, the "Chi")

StephanieJo, great minds think alike. My computer is slow and we must have posted at the same time. I did not meant to steal your observation.

A couple of things...
The straights did not get Sals spot because it was campy and very broadway....Sal failed to win the client over because he is a gay man who does not understand how to exploit women in such a way as to make them attractive to straight men.

And what of the new room mates comment that she is 'swedish'??? Sound like a code word for lesbian to me....Along with the comment by Ms Erikson that her former room mate kept the 'door to her bedroom closed all of the time'..makes me think that peggy missed the overture.....by naively saying that she was "norwegian",.....

line of the night(approximation) I sure hope Patchie(?) doesn't end up with balls hitting him in the face

Maddict Map-under List of All Topics, bout 30 back.

Just rewatched the episode and loved the final image of the three generations: the crib, Don in the middle, and Gene's army-like cot.

About Betty's parenting skills, she's not someone who should have had children. While parenting styles change, you know when your mom or dad loves you, and obviously, Betty's not a motherly type and has difficulty loving her kids. My own mother was roughly Betty's age when she had me, but I never felt the resentment and anger Betty seems to feel for her children. She probably would have been happier without little ones, but those were part of the expectations for women at that time. Too bad for Betty, but worse for her daughter, son, and new baby.

Greg - Pete/Humps is this episode referencing something from season 1, and it showing up again here in semi-obscure fashion.

It's just a reference to Pete's fraternity nickname. Nothing obscure there to anyone who has watched the show. Pete must have more than friend from Dartmouth, after all.

Sound like a code word for lesbian to me..

But she said
"no saliors"
" plenty of good men out there"
"Do you have a steady"

"Pete must have more than friend from Dartmouth, after all"
well it is pete...

pjrtor, great observations. I did not catch it the first time but
it would not seem that being a slightly different flavor of white ethnicity would lead to such a letdown for Ms Erickson. Nice catch!

@Scotch-not stealing, just funny what people remember. Weiner's using the smell thing twice. Larry David does that all the time w/Curb & Seinfeld. I guess if it works once...

@pi168.......
We shall see....why bring up the swedish thing then..I suspect the question about men was more probing for a reaction then anything else.......

I hope Mad Men takes us through the entire decade, so we can see Sally topless at Woodstock, Pete Campbell's suicide, and Peggy's emergence as an important feminist figure.

@Greg - "The Olson household smacking the tv, how great was that." I know! We had a TV in our den when I was growing up and that was what you had to do when sometimes the vertical hold just let go and the picture kept flying up and down. It worked too! I wonder what was getting jarred back into position...

As someone else has pointed out, parenting then was different. Children the ages of Sally and Bobby often did fall into the "seen and not heard" category, and sometimes not even seen. They were often viewed to a great extent as reflections of their parents and expected to conduct themselves accordingly when in the company of any adults. Even given that, though, Betty's pretty harsh.

Tender moments: When Sally was upset and Betty told her to go watch TV, Don gave her a nod that said, "Mommy isn't right, we both know. Just go along. When Don got out of bed he covered Betty with the comforter. In her hand? Tissues. She had been crying. Then he went to check on Sally. In her arms? Grampa Gene's book.

Anyone got a hankie?

@blackroe- i literally just had a cot like that a few weeks ago for a visitor at this place I rent.
When Gene told Bets that she's running the show about his will, that was strange cuz normally any male in the family was the executor and in control, never a woman.

PJ, The whole Norwegian thing, in my take, was a joke. Here's this girl partying like mad, and her parent's know so little about her life and think she's such a 'good girl' that the biggest concern they have is whither or not she moves in with someone of the same ethnic background! Ha!

There's really no reason to believe it was anything other than a moment of irony for viewers, especially with a name like Erikson that screams 'Norway'

PS It was a shot for shot reproduction...and if gay men truly didn't know anything about making women beautiful/sexy, than the fashion industry and half the arts would have crashed and burned years ago!

A not so tender moment...
Did anybody catch the look Peggy shot at Don when the Patio ad tanked? Whoa... that isn't over.

By the way, does anyone else thing that Peggy is going to keep roommie hunting and end up with a black girl answering her ad? Things clearly aren't going to work out with the girl she had over today...and I was thinking the whole episode that that would be a very easy, logical way to bring up many of the race issues that are about to burst forth. Am I wrong?

@DeepDish Yes! Peggy did give Don that visual reminder...perhaps they'll all remember her trepidation with the Patio campaign and give her a little credit in the future?

Peggy has some smart new suits! Too bad she just can't live up to Joan's roommate ad, or will she?

@Llama, I like where you are going. If not Joan (I like this angle to bring more cohesion to the show), a black girl would be a great vehicle to continue the civil rights narrative, and would be consistent with Peggy's persistently-emerging woman-about-town character. I agree the current roommate does not seem to offer much, unless Weiner has a surprise for us.

Noob here. I just discovered this site. And I will say that Gene more than likely had a stroke or heartattack like many of u stated, olfactory disturbances are common with stroke, but he might also have had a brain tumor, which could explain the bizarre behavior, and then normal behavior.
I like the tension building that is occurring just as it did in the 60's. There are cracks showing in the veneer of America, just as it is in the show.
I really liked the comment about the women of the 20's having more in common with the "liberated" women of the 60's generation. Those flappers tested boundaries just as Sally is sure to do.

@Racy: Don't wear those very high-heeled pointy shoes too often. They are what ruined my feet!
And I think Monty has changed his name again to RandallW. Let's just scroll by him. And your mention of Duck being signed with the Philadelphia Eagles made me laugh again, especially that I live in the Philly suburbs.

@Maddicts: Does anyone have an idea why the song "Over There" was played at the end ? Any connection to anything?

Pjrtor, the customer didn't like the Patio commercial because it wasn't Ann Margaret, not because Sal's gay. You need just look at Penelope Cruz in Pedro Almodovar's films to see how sexy a woman can appear in a gay director's films.

Also, re: Sweden vs. Norway, their history involves rivalry and Norway split from Swedish rule in 1905 or thereabouts. Also, during WW II, Norway under Nazi occupation had Vidkun Quisling who collaborated with the enemy to rule the country. Sweden remained neutral. It has nothing to do with Peggy or the other girl being lesbians. Sometimes a Swede is just a Swede.

@pijtor - I thought the reason the Patio ad didn't go well was because the girl had an annoying voice and she WASN'T Ann Margret - just a poor imitation. Sal's version for Kitty did get campy, though, which got Kitty concerned. But it was what the client wanted. Their bad!

*yawn* OK, last post before bed...

@ Wast, Gene was a WW1 vet, and it was a hugely popular WW1 song. Additionally, you can read it as "over there" as a euphemism for death (as in, "over on the other side"). So it's actually quite fitting...

Now I shall stop prattling for the night! Cheers all!

"Karen Ericson" Peggy's prospective roommate is played by Carla Gallo, who has been working steadily for years here in Hollywood. Before Bones, Californication and Super Bad, Carla played the stripper "Libby Dreifuss" on HBO's Carnivàle and before that she was "Lizzie Exley" an uptight over-achiever on "Undeclared" With such a background "Karen" could be any sort of roommate Peggy or Matt Weiner desires!

"Over There" was popular during WW I when Gene would have been in Germany fighting the war. It's another example of the generational shift that's being shown in the series.

Poor Kitty, 1st to find that Sal has less interest in her than she was prepared for and all while wearing Trudy's olive green baby dolls from season 1.... She must be horrified...
I don't know the title of tonite's episode but it could have just as well been called Great Expectations....All built on the huge pissing match between fathers and sons and surpassing the mark set ... I kept thinking of the lyric from an old Crosby Stills & Nash song...
"And we never failed to fail
it was the easiest thing to do."
Seeing the Continental w/ suidcide doors was a great touch, I hope that Betty can work it into her side of the tally sheet and ditch the new wagon...Woody or not, it will never stand the test of time or stature.... Gene knew what he was talking about....Don's baby blue caddie was just one more car...
The salt on the ice cream gave me a funny feeling and when Gene thot he smelled oranges, I had a thot that he was seeing the last of the brown plaid wallpapaer but he had enough juice left to be totally inappropriate with Bobby once more and rile Don at the very same time....

jan001

Since we're well-versed in the tv smacking, did you see the rabbit ears they had on top? I'm not talking the usual rabbit ears, they had the deluxe:

the flat skinny box on top of the tv with the two huge dials, with the loop-thing in the middle.

I totally had that, (when you catch the ep again and you know you will) keep an eye out for that,

And keep an eye out for the reflections of the 3 Olson's on the off tv while they're chatting.

ahh memories.....

Peggy should've smoked a little pot before talking with her mother.

I think Matt Weiner is prepping us for a spin-off.
it will be called "Toatally Mad Man" and will star the Jai-Lai visionary. This guy(to quote Regis when Kramer was pitching the coffee table book)" is Bonkers, He is really Bonkers." Very interesting dynamic involving this characters effect on the folks at S/C. Don and Cooper tried to do the right thing. Oh and by the way, although it is only a firecracker compared to the bombshell in Sal and Kitty's bedroom, how about Sal going OH Boy we could have ladies night on Tuesday's. funny funny stuff indeed.

One thing I have found interesting is that Peggy's family, who come from Norwegian stock, are staunch Catholics. Scandinavians, for the most part, are Lutheran. They seem to identify a great deal with their Norwegian heritage since Peggy lied and said the new roommate was Norwegian rather than let her mother know she was moving in with a Swede. So, it just makes me wonder the how and why the family became Catholic. If they had been Irish or Italian, yes. But Norwegian? Seems they would stay with the Lutherans in order to keep themselves separate from the Irish and Italians who at that time were still on a lower rung of the New York social ladder.

Don was pretty interesting this episode. The meeting with Ho Ho's father and Bert Cooper got him thinking about kids who inherit money vs. their father's that made it and how certain traits may not be passed down. When Don looked at the picture of Archie and Abagail that night, I noticed Don/Dick is the spittin' image of Archie. I also wonder if Don was thinking being Archie's son may not be all that bad, considering that Pete, Ho Ho and Roger, all son's who inherited money and legacy, just weren't all that great of people. Perhaps Don is learning for the first time that these "of the manor born" people may not be special. That being Archie's son has forced him to become more than his father was, and these "of the manor born" types have become less than what their father's were. That's what I got from it.

Betty is the worst mother ever. She's a complete narcissist. My father actually used the phrase "children should be seen and not heard" but my parents never treated me like that when a grandparent died. Check the sneak peak of next week's episode. They don't let Sally attend the funeral and she really starts acting out at school.

Poor Kitty. Oh, yeah. That was a light bulb moment for sure! Where will she go for comfort?

So, we know Betty used to be fat, or at least her mother thought she was and made her walk back from town because of it. I get the feeling Betty treats her children exactly the way she was treated. We found out Gene doesn't think much of his little girl and identifies more with Sally being like his first wife. And, we learned Gloria was really married to him. Gotta wonder about the implications for that in the settling of his estate.

@Josepha Peggy should have doctored mom's cigarettes with a little mary jane
@wasthere as Llama said it was a very popular WWI song. I believe it was written by Irving Berlin We need great songs specifically written to win wars. that is why we haven't had any decisive victories in a while. You can't just borrow some Hendrix, Doors, Creedence to win in a place like Viet Nam, Iraq, or Afghanistan... Get Springsteen or Dylan on the job and we can bring the troops home and have a parade down Madison Ave. maybe we should go with Jay-Zee instead of Bruce and Bob. everything he touches turns to gold,

I thot that Joan had a softer look this evening, more pastel blue, certainly less severe hair and makeup as well... Her party guests, the revelation about Dr RB may have had a deeper effecf, she may be re-thinking her escape from SC to a housewifes life in Riverdale.... So she's leaving the 50's behind and we'll soon see a 60's woman ... Perhaps the new Commercial Director will require her keen assistance...

@StephanieJo, who at 11:57 PM wrote:

"@Lucky-do you have to use the word Nazi? It's been a light thread so far, but anything can happen, right?"

Well Steph,
I don't know what the hell that last bit means, but I used a word that is appropriate for describing people who think they are superior to others and attempt to control them or make them "go away." Besides, I'm free to use any word I choose. And please don't attempt make more of my use of the word than I intended. I believe I was pretty clear about what I meant. So a person of average intelligence SHOULD be able to understand how I used the term and not make more of it than I intended.

Other than tonight, this is exactly why I have severely cut back the time I spend on this board this season: I'm not a big fan of the forum Nazis that are always trying to flex.

Live and let live.

Lucky Strike

Just some thoughts re: Peggy's mother. She is now living with Peggy's sister - doesn't have her own home anymore. She, like Gene, has been displaced and is now in the care of her child. The Pope has died. Her world seems to be closing in.

Her reaction to Peggy's moving to Manhattan was coming from a place of hurt and anger. Sometimes when people can't accept change, they get angry and lash out. I can relate to Mrs. Olsen's reaction. My brother was in the USAF and when he would come home on leave my mother always got into an emotional argument with him just before he had to report back for duty. When he was gone she'd feel sad and sorry about how she acted, but she did it every time.

@Llama and @blackcroe: Thanks. I was familiar with the song "Over There" and knew it was popular during WW1 (along with Pack Up Your Troubles in an Old Kit Bag) but wasn't connecting it to Gene.
Maybe due to the hour?

@Rozsie: Off topic but brief. Do you still live in Brooklyn? If so, are you familiar with a singer named Chris Martino who performs there on occasion?

I think Kitty would have been more fetching for Sal if she wore the bellhop's uniform.

@hobocode52: "Over There" was written by George M. Cohen, who also wrote "Yankee Doodle Dandy" and was a noted playwright and musician.

Nakomis, no one was puzzled, it's a comment on their skill, and patience, of writing.

Oops. Make that George M. Cohan, with an "a".

Meticulous attention to detail EXCEPT never never would Don and Betty's house be painted olive brown with black shutters. Red door maybe, Black shutters yes. House would definitely be white!

What I found really interesting about his episode is that lost generation of female progress (Betty) that was commented on using the interaction between grandpa Gene and Sally.

The working woman culture and propaganda of the war years yielded to the ultra-feminine "ideal" of the 50's and early 60's deemed the only way to support the traumatized and culturally dissociated men coming back home. Gene, displayed in his kitchen conversation with Sally, in all his old-fashioned ways is the most modern thinking person in the episode.

It is the percolation of unhappiness among the educated bored wives( see Betty) that would inspire the new generationof women to reject the restrictions placed upon them.

Rozsie, you are so right about Peggy's mother.

The comments about Peggy's "roomie" were really interesting. I hadn't considered that "Swedish" was a code word. People used to ask about ethnicity all the time back in those days - now it would get you shot or sued. If "Swedish" is a code word, I would think it would mean sexually free. That's what Sweden was known for at that time. But, I don't think it was a code word.

Deep Dish, yes I noticed the look Peggy gave Don. She had told Ken that the client doesn't always know best, and this episode seemed to support that big time - with the Patio folks as well as HoHo.

Thank you Betsy You are absolutely correct. Belin penned God Bless America, my mistake. He also wrote Oh How I hate to get up in the morning , while at boot camp in1917

correct me if I am wrong, was that Duck Phillips ant farm that Don smashed, and was it intentional. I think it was. Jon Hamm is a good ballplayer so i think there is no way Don would be that spastic, maybe I am just projecting an actor on his character

hobo: naw. That weird basket thrower thingy made Don send the ball in the direction opposite of his intention. I thought the ant farm was Lane's. Another poster thought it was Bert Coopers. Now I don't know for sure either way.

Great episode.

Loved the satisfied look Peggy had at the end of the preview of the Patio commercial . . . and the look of recognition on Don's face that Peggy was right.

One thing the writers did not get correct about Peggy being Norwegian: Olson is the Swedish spelling of the name. Olsen is Norwegian.

I agree that one would think Peggy and her family would be Lutheran and not Catholic, because of their Scandinavian heritage. If Peggy's mother is Norwegian, she needs to be more strong and stoic, not such a whiner! But, perhaps she just married a Norwegian.

Here I am, watching tonight's episode for the 3rd time (I have no shame) and noticed something in the scene in the kitchen with Gene and Sally eating ice cream. The refrigerator has stuff all over it -- photos, notes, presumably school stuff, etc. Whenever I see that in a TV show, I always wonder what the stuff *really* is. Did they go through magazines and cut out things that would look right in an unfocused background? Did they have crew members bring things in?

On the topic of Joan telling Peggy how to re-write her ad, I get the impression Joan really is trying to help. Maybe because she doesn't perceive Peggy as a threat to her dominant position (official and unofficial). Maybe because she's enjoying a sort of surrogate life, trying to expand Peggy's horizons, now that she herself is married and under different constraints.

Anybody else notice everyone in the Draper household treats Bobby like $%^&? Even Grandpa! There's been much speculation about Sally's upcoming hippie, bra burning, dropping out, but what of Bobby? What acting out will we see from him?

Oooh, just had another thought about Joan being nice to Peggy. Could it be that Joan somehow senses Peggy may be on the way up and that it might be wise to be in her good graces. Joan, of course, has no way of knowing what's coming culturally, but maybe she's taken note of the fact that Peggy now has an office and a secretary of her own and has decided to be nice to her "just in case".

@wasthere: you asked if I still lived in Brooklyn...you may have me confused with another poster...I'm originally from Cleveland, Ohio and now live in South Carolina. Sorry, I'm not familiar with Chris Martino.

RIP Grandpa Gene, gee I wish my grandpas were as cool as him... Letting children drive cars, use butcher knives, and wear helmets with dried German blood on them. Haha!!

I bet Betty feels bad for not listening to him earlier. I still like her despite her treatment of Sally, she's stressed out and very pregnant and now has the death of her father to worry about. She is certainly not a perfect mother, but who is?

Jai alai??? Well that was random. That kid was such a fool and his dad's an even bigger fool for letting him throw that much money away...

Sal and Kitty.. That scene was just sad all around.

Wow, Peggy and her new roommate are as different as night and day. Somehow I like her already though, I think they could learn a lot from each other. Peggy could learn how to meet the right boys, "interesting" boys at least, and maybe Karen could learn a thing or two about being a self-made woman.. I'd like to see other girls taking stronger roles in the workplace, we had to start somewhere.

Oh and the look on Peggy's face during the whole Tab meeting was the definition of smug. Everyone else in the room had a sour face but she had on her "I told you so" little smile. She told them so, they'd just rather waste their time prank phone-calling her. Ugh.

@Lucky-I don't care how often you post or not. But to bring a world-hated killer into this thread, is deplorable, and you are just trying to get some undeserved attention for it. Of course, you're free to use any word, nobody said that you weren't. Well, Luck, if you should possess the average intelligence that you speak of, then you would be well aware that you are being offensive & baiting. I'll bite!

I wonder if Betty's pregnancy, because of her smoking, will have a similar result as Jacqueline Kennedy's pregnancy that summer. Mrs. Kennedy smoked, as well.

After making us dislike her, I think that Betty will once again win over our sympathy, if that happens.

Well maybe the Patio Cola people would have liked the ad better if Sal directed himself in it. It was a more feminine portrayal. I mean a Diet soft Drink in 63 called Patio sounds pretty Gay to me. "not that there's anything wrong with that"

I think we all need to chill on @Lucky's use of the word Nazi. A message board on a period piece full of political incorrectness based on today's standards is an odd place to be so uptight. If Seinfeld can enjoy acclaimed success with their "Soup Nazi" episode in 1995, surely we can be over it 14 years later.

bipolarbear: where will Kitty go for comfort??

great question

While I don't think there will be a Kitty/Cosgrove angle, the sad thing is, as we saw last year, the man who pays Kitty the most attention, legitimate attention as a person, was not her spouse; it was Cosgrove. It was personal, yet not sexual (which is a recurring MM theme) to her.. It's about that as much as the Sal angle. Make sense?

So where will she turn to?

Maybe calling Cosgrove? I don't think so, but who knows. That would be desperate. But I think Kitty is realizing she's alone, and not the first woman this season.

Really? I thought Bryan Batt just had incredible fashion sense. Whoda thunk?

And in the race for worst mother of 1963 – we’re headed down the backstretch. Katherine Olson, Betty Draper and Abigail Whitman are running neck and neck . . .

Bettsy wants to be a little girl. Sally wants to be a big girl. No wonder Gene connected with Sally so well. She has his respect (and his five bucks).

Pete: I’ve been keeping the schylocks away since Dartmouth.
Don: That idiot is living proof that a fool and his money will soon be partying.
Pete: Yes, you’re right Don. Originally, he wanted to purchase swamp land around Orlando Florida. Luckily I talked him out of that possible donnybrook! Who would every want to develop anything there? A thing like that!

I have a Cosgrove/Sal/Kitty scene that I am sure will piss off someone.

Like most here, I've watched the show from the beginning. I'm a fan.

But right now, it's getting perilously close to something like the "The Sally Draper Show", or perhaps "Sally's World". I'm becoming a little bored, and I know I'm not alone.

Caveats, before continuing:

1. Young actor Kiernan Shipka is doing a bang-up job as Sally. (Her grandpa Gene has been fun to watch too, but was just killed off....)

2. I understand that we're setting things up for later in time; even much later. I.e., 1960's change is a-comin', baby-boomer Sally isn't receiving much love or parenting from her parents, etc., etc.

3. And no, I'm not a viewer who constantly needs to see: A new affair from Don every week, people from Don's past popping up all the time, shocks from neurotic housewives (pot-shooting pigeons), car crashes, entertaining clowns like Jimmy Barrett, Freddy Rumsen, etc. (though enjoyable).

Can we possibly re-focus upon a few, interesting adult major characters and already-underway interactions again? E.g., Don and Betty, Don and Peggy/Pete/Roger at work, Joan and anyone, Peggy and Father Gill, Pete and Trudy, Roger and Jane/Mona. At this point I'd even prefer some Betty and Francine or Helen Bishop to yet more exploration of Sal's dilemma, and the setting up/foreshadowing of Sally's world.

Oh: And can a few such scenes with major characters occasionally be more than a couple (or so) minutes in length?

We know that it's an outstanding ensemble performing (for) Mad Men, all around. But it's (mainly) Jon Hamm, January Jones and Elisabeth Moss who have been/will be picking up deserved acting awards for the show thus far. They're the actors/characters this fan would hope to see primarily featured and developed, along with other excellent, top-billed cast members Christina Hendricks, Vincent Kartheiser, and John Slattery.

Thanks for reading and considering. I guess there's always next week. (I remain thankful for that, too.)

maybe someone already mentioned this, but when Don looks in on Sally at the end of the episode, she is clutching The Roman Empire book. Absolutely heartbreaking. Many posters have placed Sally in a dire future set of circumstances.It is possible, maybe likely, but maybe Grandpa gave her just enough positive encouragement that she will escape what's predicted and she will use her Grandpa as a source of strentgth.I'm rooting for this fictional kid.come on Matt, give her a break, though the preview shows otherwise. Many kids overcame the obstacles of bad parenting and found a way to thrive

Wonder if the PETA crowd noticed the Fur, Chinchilla, and Hudson Bay Seal reference.

And Betty, keep on setting new standards for the low mark in any senitivity to others.

And Gene was starting to warm to Bobby too. I liked the Gene character from day one, and I am dissapointed that so many posters didn't like him and projected sexual impropriety on the character. shame on all of you you were wrong.

The writing has been flawless on this show but in the last episode Peggy tells her roommate that she is Norwegian. I understand that her last name is Olsen however, her family as we know it has raised her as a strict Roman Catholic. I am of Norwegian descent and I know she would not be raised with the same values. Norway is the least Roman Catholic Christian nation I can think of. Since the Reformation the national religion has been Lutheran. Maybe her father was Norwegian and married a Polish or Irish woman? Otherwise the story line does not make sense. I hope the writers can clarify this story point. If not, it will seem like the writers are simply creating a character they have not researched.

Still not happy.

Many called this a great or good ep, but I don't think it's in the same league with much of the last two seasons.

There were some good set pieces, but the ep doesn't come together the way so many other good ones did in Season 2.

Just what are we supposed to take away from Don standing in the attic at the end? Is he happy Gene is dead? Does he wish he had a father he missed? Does he wish he could have consoled Sally? Does he fear his own death? I don't know and usually before I knew -- when the last hit would come in the final three or four minutes of an ep it would zing-- Father Gill: ("For the little one. Bert Cooper: " "You'd be surprised how loyalty is born." are just two great final moments of many of the last two seasons.) This ending, I am not ashamed to say, was lost on me.

There were plenty of little things to like. For me? I liked Peter's comment at dinner with Ho-Ho and Don when Pete describes Jai Alai as "the is his kind of investment his father would love." Great--remember Pete's dad left his family nothing?

I was stuck on the Patio commercial. It was off. But why? A closeted gay man can't direct sexy? The girl's voice? Peggy's warning that the whole idea was wrong?

I always felt I knew what was going on on Mad Men. Now not so much.

Yes, Kitty, Sal is gay. Where is this going?

Gene is bad. Gene is dead. I didn't care. Where is this going?

Before on Mad Men, events seemed to happen to lead to something, ie, harry gets drunk on election nite, sleeps with Hildy, and gets stuck staying at the office. Why? So as a nice guy we like, he can go crying out of the room during Don's Kodak Carousel Pitch at the end of Season 1. Bobbie and Don get in the car accident so Bobbie can stay with Peggy and provide Peggy critical mentoring. It's a key next step following: 1) Peggy is a hard worker. 2) She knows she doesn't want to be a crying girl in the steno pool. 3) Paul Kinsey shows her how SC works. 4) Freddy gives her a chance. But Bobbie helps her see she has to be willing to be woman not a girl to succeed. The whole interaction shows the backstory with Don and Peggy after her baby's birth. And ends with Peggy calling Don "Don" for the first time. Bang! I get it.

I just don't see where any of this is going in season 3. In Season 2, Don was upset about dumping Mohawk Airlines, because he promised he'd be there for them. When American Airlines passes on SC, it is another reason for Don to hate Duck. But why is Don so willing to come to the aid of a fool and his money in this ep? Later we see him looking at Archibald Whitman's stern picture. The next shot is him at SC ready to take the fool's (Ho-Ho's) money. What is being said here? Again I don't get it. Don's father died when he was 10. He was a drunk who hit Don. But how does that relate to a rich fool failing his father? Where's the connection?

There's a story here about fathers and sons and expectations (And perhaps mothers and daughters as well with Peggy and her mom and her escape from Brooklyn) but it doesn't have room to breathe. Space has to be made for Gene's relationship with Sally, for Sal's inadvertent coming out to Kitty. And Gene's death. I'm sorry for Sally, but where is this going? Unless the show is going to focus on Sally, where can it go? We already have other, more clear examples of Betty's cold mothering. I never got a handle on how Betty felt about her father. Her mother seems like a much more important figure in her life. Yet we'll never meet her. This Gene thing seems like a dead-end, forgive the pun.

We're now almost a third of the way thru the season and I don't see where this is going at all. Last year, the Bobbie affair and it's revelation to Betty sent Don to LA, a pilgrimage that allowed him to be offered, handed really, his supposed yearning for a life free of control and convention. He was offered "Joy" literally and figuratively by Joy and her fellow hedonists in the ep, "The Jet Set."

"Don" collapses, returns to being Dick and then makes a choice--not to give up on Don Draper. He see the decadence of the life that repels him and gets a boost from the woman who helped him create the "Don Draper" we know. The whole merger thing seemed like a way to add even more drama to his disappearance and he heroic return. Now it's stuck us with a story line and characters we don't care about.

Peggy's whole stunning rise and her relationship with Don unfolded beautifully in Season 2.

Now she's reverted to silly Peggy and Joan is calling her "Peggy" again instead of "Miss Olson." Last season, Joan was pitied by Peggy, now she's back to offering helpful advice. And when did Anita get over burning with hatred for Peggy--so strong she outed her in confession with a priest?

I'm just lost. This feels more like "Almost Heaven" than Mad Men. The style and art direction remains strong but the story seems like sadly obvious melodrama.

I love the Joan stuff last week, she's realizing fully the disaster that is greg, but where can it go? Maybe her getting a divorce when she catches greg sleeping with a nurse in 1975? Okay, send a copy of "Joan Doesn't Live Here Anymore," or "One Day At A Time: New York" in 12 years, but right now Joan is good as screwed during the remainder of the 60's. So again, seems like a dead end...

How about Peggy needs a college degree to move up? Get her into NYU and see where it could take the character--and us.

What's Don doing with that $500,000-plus he supposedly netted from the merger with his 12 percent partnership stake?

One thing I did see pretty clearly: "Swedish is NOT a codeword for "lesbian." Peggy's roomie is not gay, she's just not a good match for her.

Finally is the kid playing Bobby a different kid than season 2?

Sorry for the long post, but I really needed to vent. Anybody see a story arc here we should or even could care about?

I have to agree with the comments on Peggy and being Catholic. I am also Norwegian and we are also Lutheran. I laughed at the comment as I know my grandmother would have been much more upset if I roomed with a Catholic than a Swedish person.

I couldn't believe Betty's comment on Gene being selfish, and then the contrast with her shutting the door on poor little Sally. Just wanted to scream, but that's Betty for you.

Loved Joan's comment's on Peggy's ad!

Some comments on Betty/Gene:

*** Betty ~ She is a child raising children, she even says it herself, "I'm your little girl." She is stunted emotionally/psychologically, refer to her odd connection with the divorcee's pre-teen son. This is her emotional age. This cannot be blamed on her, or at least not entirely. She is a product of her childhood, in which she was made into a "princess." She is also a product of her times in that women were given very limited choices. Betty's a privileged, sheltered girl who never grew up and her one ticket was to marry a 'real catch.' Which Don is except for Betty can't seem to turn him on and he cheats on her repeatedly, so she is not only stunted and child-like, but she is trapped and stuck and doing mental gymnastics to remain in denial and fake the 'perfect life' all the while being 9 mos. pregnant, a pregnancy that sealed her sentence to this unhappy existence. SO, Betty is angry, and I think that is the understatement of the year. This in no way excuses her disturbing behavior toward her children, but it explains a lot of it. Agree with poster who said she probably shouldn't have had children or should have had them later in life.

*** Did anyone catch what Gene said to her as he laid out his "arrangements" paperwork? I know he said who gets what, but there were other comments that I thought were illuminating about his relationship with Betty.

*** Betty seems to revere her mother, stared for a long time at her portrait at her childhood home in previous episode. Was it her mom who turned her into the "princess"? What is the true nature of her relationship with her father? From clues we got this episode (comments Gene made to Sally about Betty and Betty and Gene's last conversation) it certainly seems pretty chilly. Any insight, maddicts?

Peggy has the worst mother, Peggy was socially stunted,she drove Peggy to the looney hospital imo.

The whole Norwegian-Swedish thing still exist, kind of. I visit Norway each year and they each have a strong rivalry, neither wants to be the other, it's something they understand, but wouldn't explain, I was suppose to just understand. I remember if we went out to dinner, they would laugh about it. It's a friendly rivalry, but was once real. I think Norway use to be part of Sweden until they broke away.

Peggy told her mom the roomate was Norwegian (not Swedish, because of the old stigma each has about the other) even the roomate said, we won't tell our parents, when she was talking to Peggy)

I think what Joan was trying to do was HELP Peggy relate to the Youthful world around her as a Young woman.
Peggy is still socially inept , imo(good copy editor, good on projects, but still not natural with people, youth , men, women, even though she sees clearly in a ad,what should be, she can't in her own life. I don't belive that she is natural with being youthful, she has to observe or be told or practice first. Her mother I think may have been a big problem for Peggy in the past. Thank gooness she moved to the Big City.

Loved Sal this episode. Sal was just being himself and poor Kitty, now what does she do since she's crossed over into the Looking Glass?
Sal is going to be a great Vincent Minelli, I mean commercial director..
Good eye for talent Don.

(mustang Sally! Ha!)
I loved little protest Sally, notice that Vietnam news clip she was watching. Sally will probably be at Woodstock.

I agree with anotherJon2 and I have one word to describe this episode: Boring.

I'm just wondering what cocktail our beloved FancyNancy and Racy are getting us in for, and I say more of it..

Speak now or forever...

I understand people’s anger towards Betty for her treatment of Sally, but that is part of her flawed CHARACTER. The era of “children should be seen and not heard” was probably more of the norm then people want to admit. This is not ‘Leave it to Beaver’ folks! The kids are not the main focus of the family.
Gene to Betty as she washes dishes at the sink: “Elizabeth, get off your feet, it’s bad for the baby.”
-Later in same scene, Gene to Betty: “Jesus, smoke your cigarette.”
Yes, I also noted his concern for Betty smoking as ‘committing suicide’ as it is for her kids.
Loved the ice cream scene with Grandpa and Sally – totally caught on to the “funny orange smell” comment…I told my husband immediately, I think Gene going to have a stroke.
And @Greg my favorite quote too – “Don’t stop until you see the whites of his pockets” ah, yes, gotta love advertising!

I feel that the ant farm breaking is a another foreshadow of the future. The ant farm is a microcosm to the mad men universe. The shook and disarray that the glass breaking to the ants is equal to the shook everyone will have on November 22, 1963.

When I tivo back the episode, I can see that peggy is trying hard not to have a smille on her face even before the camera makes it obvious how smug she is that the patio ad fails.

@Jim K: You asked several times, where is this show heading? Part of the fun for me is just waiting to find out.

THe little actress playing Sally is stealing the show these days. I think she and the little boy who was in love with Betty -- Glenn? -- are going to get together and rob banks and kill people throughout the Midwest. Sally will drive.

I just want to note that it was NOT Betty who shut the door on Sally. It was the police officer. Betty was stunned and upset to find out her father died. And women can be quite emotional the last few weeks of pregnancy. She went into the house to find the folder Gene gave her with all the death details. The police officer followed her in and shut the door behind him. Of course Betty was ahead and had her mind on other things. We can blame her for a lot of things, but not the closed door.

I think Betty has been battling clinical depression since the death of her mother, and with her cheating husband, unplanned pregnancy, death of her father, I think she is going to go over the edge soon. I predict two prescriptions in her future: valium and birth control pills.

I also want to add that Betty reminds me a lot of my own emotionally stunted mother. Their child rearing methods are nearly identical, and I think it is simply the way they were raised. Grandpa Gene reminds me a lot of my father. He was a real character, but really believed his daughters could be just as successful as his sons. My mother was the one who thought girls shouldn't bother going to college. After all, it would be wasted when we stayed home with our babies!!!!

Gawd, how did I survive?

@hobo... well, I remember you called it... as being possible they would knock off Gene tonight. Sad because he turned out to be such a rockin' G'pa fo rSally and Bobby too... like someone else said Bobby speaks! At last.
(I didn't think he would and was happily surprised)

@bipolar... you mention Bobby acting out... no doubt we will see more, but remember the lying trips in S-2?

@Manhattan.. think you are right - Peggys rabid Catholic mom married a Norwegian, who has fallen off the perch.

Very generally speaking - Swedes and Norwegians had some rivalries going (another poster mentioned the history more specifically) and they often really didn't like one another --- so I could see the roomie saying "well we won't tell my mother"... mom might have been a diehard (there were apparently plenty of them according to my Swedish family) And is Peggys family on that trip?

Had a flash about ADT.... Don swings the peloton a little too wild.... CRASH into the ant farm....
THE ANTS: Aaaiiee... This is the way the world will end... This is the way the world will end....
PAUL: Hey those are my lines....

Great show...so many thoughts, can't write them down. Sleep now.

thank u MadMenmommy for clearing up that orange smell thing Gene said. When I saw him pouring the salt on the ice cream, all I could think was he must have High blood pressure.

But...Why did Gene smell orange? Is that a common occurance when stroke is coming on?

Roger's line..... "It's not Ann Margaret."
.....classic.....

I like that Betty,Don took parents into their homes in the 60's, instead of immediately too a old folks home.
(well Betty's brother William would have put Gene away of he had his choice.)

Whatever happened to Don's high blood pressure?
Why was Don looking at his box again, was he looking at his parents , thinking about the living off the land, comment made early at the meeting...

Has anyone commented on Don saying to Bobby, "You're wearing a dead man's hat?" Isn't Don's LIFE wearing a dead man's hat?

Oops! I lost my msg! Anyway, it was killing me that I could not place the actor who played Hoho's dad,until I read the credits. It was David Selby, a gorgeous actor back in the 70's I had a huge crush on when he was on "Dark Shadows" (a True Blood wannabe). I saw him in L.A. in the 90's when he performed in a play that the title has since escaped my memory. He's still magnetic, white hair & all. Once I remember, I will repost...

Despite their uh, "problem", I think there is a tenderness between Sal and Kitty that is not seen in any of the other marriages in the show.

Mad Men scripts get so little wrong that I wonder if the Norwegian Catholic intersection is intended as a deliberate wink to the involved audience about what a rare bird Peggy is. I'm not sure it matters for itself, but it could be symbolic of the degree to which Peggy is threading life's needle, descended from ancestors who somehow brought an ancient faith to America through centuries of official Lutheranism.

Also all three women in the family are a lot shorter than the average Norwegian. Casting two women even shorter than Elizabeth Moss' 5' 3" as her mother and sister was deliberate too. So maybe Matt Weiner just has some grudge against Norwegians he's working out.

I wonder about editing the brief intercut shot of Joan spraying for loose ants in the closet as the "Bye Bye Birdie" music cues. It's less of a punchline to the previous office scene and more of an intro to the next. Does that tell us 1) that whatever Don's about to let loose (with his growing obsessive nostalgia?), it's going to be pesky or 2) when Joan has to get rid of her problem, she will?

"No sailors. I agree."

Good catch @hxprof59 regarding "wearing a dead man's hat." Don sure knows a lot about that.

The episodes have seemed a little uneven and disconnected so far this season, but I am hopeful it will all come together at some point.

I don't know if it's intentional, but Don looks more tired and stressed than in previous seasons. He may have been looking back at his father's picture and asking himself if the life he chose was the right one. Aside from the philandering, this character seems to have very rigid attitudes about proper behavior (note his increasing disapproval of Roger).

Maybe he should have stayed out West with the original Mrs. Draper...His conversation with the old gentleman from New Mexico (Conrad Hilton?) hinted at other options he might have had.

I absolutly loved Gene's joke about receiving a medal for beating "clap"!!

I bought 'Round the Clock' pantyhose in 1962! Thiught it was the greatest invention. Checked Wikipedia and they were actually invented in 1947.

Great episode. I don’t know why I just realized my mother was pregnant with me at around this time of this episode (hence the 63 in my handle). Luckily she didn’t smoke like a chimney and drink like a fish!

I felt so bad for Sally. She finally found an ally, he dies, and she gets zero sympathy. Her on the porch in her little tutu was just heartbreaking. The scene with Gene going through his treasure box was great. My husband said – What a great Grandpa!

Did anyone else think HoHo was gay? He seemed very obsessed with the sports guy and there seemed to be no wife/girlfriend in the picture for him (maybe he and Sal can hook up).

I am enjoying everyone’s insights. There are several things I didn’t pick up, like that Don waited until everyone was asleep before he put away Gene’s cot.

"TexRex96 on September 7, 2009 2:05 AM
I think we all need to chill on @Lucky's use of the word Nazi. A message board on a period piece full of political incorrectness based on today's standards is an odd place to be so uptight. If Seinfeld can enjoy acclaimed success with their "Soup Nazi" episode in 1995, surely we can be over it 14 years later"
...Seinfeld was a comedy show, with amazing writers including Larry David. Calling posters on this thread Nazi's in any fashion, is inappropriate in any time period. I highly doubt that the poster who penned it, is an acclaimed writer/comedian nor was it in jest. This board has rules now, and we'll have to see what they think.

So, nobody but me thinks Don is re-thinking how bad/good Archie was as a Dad? I thought that was the most obvious part of the episode. Don is consistently exposed to men whose fathers presented them with every opportunity for success. In turn, these men seldom live up to the opportunities presented. Don on the other hand, was given no opportunity, is completely self-made, and has far exceeded his father in nearly every way. This is the meaning of Don's examination of the picture of Archie and Abagail. Don is questioning how important lineage/name really is, in the scheme of things. Don is questioning whether he could have made it this far as Dick Whitman. i.e., was it even necessary to change his identity? To me, this foreshadows Don embracing Dick, embracing being himself, being true to himself. Don/Dick coming to terms with himself.

I agree with the observation that Don looks tired and older this season.....kind of gray skinned and wasted. But that cutie schoolteacher girl, crying when she finds out that Sally's grandfather has died....I think, horrible and inappropriate though it may be....that ol' Don will find a way into that woman's bed.
Also, I love Don for giving Sal a chance to direct-- this is one of the themes of the show that I love, that Don is a self-made man, trying to succeed in an old money kind of world, and he is, in his way, fighting for decency and loyalty in his life.

Peggy took down that sign for free kitties, without batting an eye. She's really on a power-path!
@montyjr-cute! 21 to drink, no?
I hope we don't get too inundated w/Sally on this show. Again, like Soprano's.
@hxfpro-Wow!

@bipolarbear I agree that Don is thinking about his past and true identity more and more. Who he would have become without wearing the real Don Draper's dead hat all these years (great comparison @hxprof59 !)
Can Dick Whitman co-exist with Don? Who will learn the truth? If Betty learned the truth don't you think the whole show would fall apart?
Maybe smashing the ant farm is Don inadvertently taking down his own false self....

@madmenmommy: Gene also makes the comment to Betty that washing dishes is "cleaning up after the maid just like your mother used to do." That line says a lot about Betty's complete lack of household chores/child rearing which was commented upon much by posters in last week's thread. I'm just trying to figure what it is Gene thinks a wife SHOULD do, since household chores and mothering fall to the maid. Is her role to simply wait patiently, dressed to the nines with a drink made, for hubby to return from the office?

Does anybody else think Don and Betty will name the baby Gene or Jean?

I too had the same impression about Don breaking the ant farm.

And that teacher is the MayPole girl.

Bipolarbear: Great post.

I wondered about the Norwegian/Catholic thing, too. I know that Bay Ridge/Bensonhurst, Brooklyn had a substantial Norwegian community, but I thought that most Scandanavians were Protestant. I think that Peggy's mother must be Irish Catholic, married to a Norwegian. I've heard that Irish mothers are capable of guilt-tripping their kids as much as Jewish mothers!

In the sneak peek from next week we see Sally's teacher again. I got the feeling Don has found his next girlfriend.

I'm so glad 'maypole' is back-we discussed her adnauseum. Can't wait to see Don bed-hopping again, he's been too strange lately.

I agree that Don was thinking about his father and his past, I'm just not sure what he is thinking.

It's interesting that Don promoted Sal. He now has championed two people in the office -- Peggy and Sal, two people who have big secrets, just like he does. Hmmmmm.....I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

this episode gave me a new insight into peggy: i think essentially she is a blank slate, out of place. the reason she is so successful in her job, and the reason she and don have a kindred connection, is that they are both able to "be who they need to be" in any given situation. peggy's acting in the burger boy scene and again with her new roomie, trying on the role of "modern girl". she is still finding herself.

and bobby trying on the "dead man's hat"- a foreshadowing of vietnam?

i think part of betty's anger toward sally is tinged with jealousy, because sally had a connection to gene. betty wants to be the little girl, but she can't and it pisses her off. her scenes last night with no makeup made her look like a little lost girl.

After all the father/son combats that Don has observed, I feel that the trip to the memory box, focusing on the picture of his dad and Abigail , was the beginning of his reconcialtion . Don is beginning to understand that there is a time to let the genes have their proper place in our history but they need not define his life... Ho Ho and his dad, Pete and his , tho they had many advantages, did not insure what Don would regard as a sucessful life...
I feel that Don has healed himself and is now ready to build a stronger foundation for his family... Couldn't come at a better time cause Betty will be his burden to bear for a long time....

Maybe Gene is not dead after all. Maybe it's Eugene Hoffstadt NUMBER ONE who died and the police just don't know about that whole bank thing.

and the "new" Bobby. He sure looks familiar. Have we seen him in anything before?

@Norman I think you're right, poor Bobby is surely going to Vietnam, but good insight on your part! Don had better sort out his father/son issues before they leave Bobby in the same sort of lurch Don's in now.

Maybe this was covered S2, but I was just thinking about why Betty may treat Bobby so poorly: The only person she could name who slept with her husband was Bobbie Barrett and letting go of those negative associations is too tough for her?

A few things; did anyone get the significance of Joanie covering her nose and cleaning something before the screening of the commerical for Patio? It was quick... I didn't get what it was about.

I was so shcoked by the opening scene that I thought it was a dream!

Betty is just becoming more and more, well, hateful... I hope they can redeem her somehow. I don't know that she was ever really likeable but at least there was a modicum of happiness? Maybe not joy, but... jeez. That woman really does not like her kids or her life AT ALL. Sally is definitely headed to Woodstock and Haight Ashbury at the first opportune moment, then on to a life of therapy and self-help books. Poor girl. Just the right age.

Oh, and one more thing; I just found out from an aunt of mine who's Norwegian that the Norwegians and the Swedes HATE each other! It's some kind of historical rivalry. It's so weird that this particular subject came up and then was introduced on Mad Men. I never would have known were it not for that conversation.

, "and I am dissapointed that so many posters didn't like him and projected sexual impropriety on the character."

Well, in all fairness it was not projected but shown to us as he confused his daughter with his dead wife and made sexual advances twice.

RE: Nazi
it is a political ideology NOT a person.
Yes it is closely associated with an evil horrid person..and from that we should all take caution of those who employ that political ideology in how he or she deals in life as an example and a lesson.

POTENTIALLY STUPID QUESTION:

when I was a kid i vaugely remember my folks at party talking and there being a Howard Johnston and Jai Alai connection is "Ho-Ho" connected to the Howard Johnston hotels? ( they use to call his dad Hojo)

Aralston: yes, it was quick. That was Joan spraying RAID on the antfarm!

Classic Betty as she once again sends Sally to go watch tv. Don did check on Sally later...points to him for that. Betty's behavior has nothing to do with her being pregnant, hormonal, etc. Fabulous performance by January Jones. I have seen interviews with her and she is warm and animated and it just shows how great an actor she is, not at all playing a version of herself as some actors do.

Favorite line...oh no sailors!

I would not advise Kitty to go after Ken. He is gay but just doesn't know it yet.

I enjoyed the looks Peggy and Don exchanged after she was proven correct about the Patio commercial.

Ah, Joan's great suggestions on the roommate ad, and Peggy going with it. Joan has ALWAYS tried to help Peggy, as bizarre as some of her suggestions sound. "That ad is unfortunate" reminded me of the time Joan told Peggy let's go out for lunch; that sandwich is making me sad.

god i love this show. in ref to grampa's death:
i was born in 1957 and so sally is a few years older than me. when my grandparents died death was not discussed nor were our emotions addressed. the world has changed very much and yes , even though my parents loved me, many things fell under "children should be seen and not heard" category. which i think is sometimes better than the over-coddling kids get these days about everything.
it creeped me out htough because did something inappropriate happen btwn gramps and sally?
the generation gap did exists, the horror on the news was not explained and i think it made us more independant and rebellious thinkers. my friends father would not let them watch ED SULLIVAN because he had Russsian circus bears on (communist)!!!
believe it. that's why i love this show. its real to the core

pi168, there's no such thing as a stupid question.

Thanks for all the great insights. I especially enjoy the Norwegian comments as my mom is from Norway and I was raised Catholic in NY (my mom converted to Dad's religion). I had really been relating to Peggy and even more so now. I had also questioned the spelling of her last name, which is the Swedish way. I doubt Peggy's mom would be so staunch if she had converted.

Sorry if I repeat, but did anyone see a whistle around Joan's neck when she was advising Peggy on her ad? I thought this might be a forewarning ( along with Peggy's mom's warning of violence in the city, and Joan/Peggy's previous discussions of Joan's caution about being followed) of trouble for Joan.

Glad to see what happened to the $500K Don got in the sale - I guess it's in his desk drawer.

This is JMVHO ~~~

Not realistic for the era:

Bobby's comment, "War is bad." Also the problem with the helmet. My Daddy let us play with a large German Nazi emblem. NP. They were the ememy.

Sally's outburst. Would not have happened.

Again ~~~ JMVHO.

see a whistle around Joan's neck when

It is a pen
she always wears it..the actress bought it a flea market

deepdish : thank you but apparently here there are "stupid questions" I have seen

Bobby could have been born in 1956 or 1957. If he’s on his way to ‘Nam if born in ‘56, he’d probably spend about a year there, if he went right after graduation. If he graduated high school in 1975, he’d not have gone at all. Saigon fell in April of 1975.

And I will indeed bet Don never happened to mention the 500 large to Betty.

On the Nazi thing, I hereby invoke Godwin's Law. Ta-Dum!

As far as religion in Sweden goes, I agree that Peggys mum may very well have converted. Contrary to Tere's view that a convert wouldn't be so zealous, I completely disagree. There's no bigger zealot than a convert in my experience.

Another possible explanation is that Peggy's family at Catholic Swedes. Remember, Sweden was as Catholic as anyone until the 1500s, and as unlikely as it sounds people *did* carry illegal faiths underground for centuries. Peggy's family could have emigrated in one of the first real post-Civil War waves, and religious ground would still have been a very good reason to do so at the time. Historic religious persecution would certainly be another good reason for Mama Olson to be super devout. Just a thought.

PS Whatever happened to the weird priest?

I thought the nickname Ho Ho was just an affectionate nod to his real name, Horace. I mean - really, who wants to be called Horace?

PS: Sorry, I wrote got, Peggy's Norwegian (I keep mixing that up!). Roughly the same theory applies though.

I agree that Betty knows nothing of the SC stock sale.. Don always keeps a stash but I doubt it's much more than 3 or 4 K.... Betty is not interested in anything that doesn't affect her directly, just assumes that Don will take care of whatever her needs may be....
I wonder if her father's estate, now in her care, will be immedately turned over to Don's care as well.. This will not sit well with William...
From the conversation while Sally was driving the Lincoln we know that Gene knew a bit about construction and I often wondered about his biz background. Now we know that he was in banking but not senior enough to be Gene 1, only Gene2....Since Gene kept William under his thumb, does that mean that he was in banking as well?
Don always felt that Gene was a jerk, Gene called Don a looser.... One was a war hero the other went to war and put on a dead man's hat to get the f** outta there as quick as he could... Could that, more than the money/family which was clear Don lacked be the real grit between the two??
Men keep close tabs on service records and know very well who did what during war time. I believe that Don suffers more from his actions in time of battle and is a deeper regret and embarrasment than taking the name of an already fallen soldier..
It seems more likely that we may have seen the last of Dick Whitman.

I've been following Sal, so to speak, slowly evolving from a cardboard backdrop to someone much more"interesting". The writers started that gay angle, then dropped it like a stone,and I honestly wondered if they had changed their minds (still too controversial?). Then, ka-boom, the groping session in the hotel. Was this his first, you know, encounter? The shock on his face said yes. The "God, how did he KNOW?" look ("gaydar" hadn't been coined yet). So what happened, did he suddenly get propelled out of the closet by a hidden ejector device?

I predict that once he gets his bearings, Sal will have an agonizing affair with a young, rich, temperamental "artist" with bow-shaped lips and a mop of blonde hair, who says he is bisexual (so he can dump Sal when he "gets a girl pregnant").
To quote Gay Boyfriend by TheHazzards:

I'm Tired Of Boys Who Make Me Cry,
They Cheat On Me And They Tell Me Lies.
I Want A Love Who'll Never Stray,
When He See's Other Girls He Looks Away!
And If He Never Kisses Me Then Thats Alright,
'Cause We Can Just Cuddle All Night!

Gay Boyfriend!
Gay Boyfriend!
I Don't Really Care That You Are Queer!
Gay Boyfriend!
Gay Boyfriend!
I Never Feel Lonly When You Are Near!
La, La, Lala!

Ann Margret was born in Sweden. An her last name? Olsson. coincidence?

The first two seasons of Mad Men were outstanding. What has happened to the writing? The actors are the same but it's like the writing team that made the show stand out among other shows have left the building. I'm quickly loosing interest. Lame.

Hi all. I have been reading here but this is my first post, so please be gentle.

I have a little insight into the behavior of and toward Sally regarding Gene's death. I was born in 1957 and lost grandparents in 1960, 63, 64 and 67. I feel that the behavior of everyone in this episode surrounding Gene's death is spot on.

My parents were very loving, but I was kept completely away from ALL of the funerals and relatively ignored. I was either left with friends or taken with but left in the car.

I also think that Sally being upset with people laughing and coming in to say so is something I would have done. All she knows is that her beloved grandpa is gone and they are joking. She would not have the adult insight to know that telling stories, even funny ones, or laughing at inappropriate times is an adult way of coping with grief.

I also think that in 1963 we had not reached the child centered place that we are now and that being sent to watch TV and not comforted would have happened in a LOT of households.

I also think that some people here are expecting too much from Betty. She is a damaged, depressed woman. If anyone has dealt with TRUE depression, not just "the blues" you would know that she may be doing all that she is capable of. My mother suffered from depression and she was sometimes unable even to leave her room for days, and yet she loved me very much.

Nana Benz, no, Gene was not "in" banking. The bank already had an account with a GH so that's why he was #2.- They had to distinguish the account holders. But you're right about him knowing about construction/roofing.

And everybody else: Gene and Sylvia WERE married. I never heard the word divorce. Just the word "abandoned" Are Betty and William dividing up the pie? This might not be over.

Ho-Ho and Sal are going to 'get it on'...when Pete gets wind of it, it will really put him in a bind. He'll want to fink Sal out cause he's such a weasel but won't be able to do so cause it would kill the golden goose (Ho Ho)

pjrtor: re the Swedish (Karen Erickson) roommate, Sweden was regarded as a paragon of sexual freedom back in those days. (Rember the "I am Curious.." movies?) Karen is certainly more modern and amorously adventurous than repressed Peggy. However, historically the Swedes and the Norwegians were not fond of each other, so probably that's why both girls lied to their mothers ("I'll tell my mom you're Swedish." "She's Norwegian, too.")

DeepDish, I was wondering about whether Gloria, as Gene's legal wife at the time, would have been assumed to be entitled to Gene's estate. Maybe that was part of why Gene was trying to talk to Betty about his will. I notice he mentioned some minor personal property, but not the house or the cash.

Wouldn't William be beside himself if he didn't get richer off his dad, which is what his main concern with the old man seemed to be.

Stephanie Jo, gosh girl, listen to yourself. You're mad at one poster so you will punish everybody else "spewing your ideologies all over this forum" Why would you subject the rest of us to this?

I do agree with you, however, about sticking to the topic.

In the preview during the teacher conference Betty excuses herself to use the ladies room. Water bag breaking?

And I don't think teachers back then EVER asked what was going on at home, even maypole freshfaces.

How did the Bellboy know Sal was gay? Sal’s Ann Margaret impersonation for Don was cut from the elevator scene in “Out of Town”. It was so good they had to find a place for it. Hmmm, maybe we could drop it like an anvil on Wiley Coyote and use it as the first instance where Kitty thinks something’s up.

. . .WOW, I MADORE how concise and direct DON can be in MANY aspects of work and home. To Horace ("Humps/Ho-Ho") Cook jr at the restaurant (looked like the 21Club):"YOU CAN DO BETTER." Later: Don to Sal after Betty's call about Gene (cool as a cucumber):"YOU ARE NOW THE COMMERCIALS DIRECTOR." In one fell swoop he reassured the apprehensive Sal and gave him a promotion!

KITTY=EPIPHANY EXTRAORDINAIRE. Hmmm.

My FAV scene (#XXI) was a rubber-gloved Joan frantically spraying the busted ANT FARM with RAID. Ominous: SC/PP&L seems to be losing accounts like MAD. And, the JAI ALAI campaign seems doomed from the start.(Despite the "deep pockets.")

Near the end, the Drapers and Hofstadts are drinking red wine and eating peaches. Were the peaches from a fruit stand that Gene stopped at after taking the kids to school and prior to the A&P?! They had retrieved the peaches from the Olds? (We know that Bobby doesn't like peaches but that Sally and Betty do-from an earlier scene.)

Dead Ants/ Ripe Peaches /Basque Baseball???

LOVELOVELOVE: All of the KEEN and LOVELY VOICES: NEW and OLD on this thread. It's positively a MADMENDEMIC !

(A FEW scintillating HIGHLIGHTS from my NYC trip later on this week when things are a wee bit quieter. TA: OUR BEAUTIFUL RACY ! Ya gotta check out "Beekman Bar and Books and Cigar Bar": TOO FAB! Saw JUDE LAW at The NY Standard Hotel bar-I swear.X!)

@Loves MM: Bobby's comment "war is bad" could certainly have been his opinion in 1963. The controversy over that war was there long before it became a nightly news story of returning vets and college kids protesting. Considering all the t.v. watching Bobby was doing, and the fact that certain times of the day, the news was all that was available on T.V., its entirely possible Bobby was forming his own opinions. Especially since he was getting little if any guidance from his parents.

Re: With all the surprises MM has held for us, and for all the efforts we make to try to predict what will happen next, Weiner and his writers are just so good that any attempt to guess where the stories are heading is futile. I'm bewildered by the exasperation of anyone who demands to know "where this is going" and somehow seems angry that he can't figure it out. Patience please. How good would this series be if you knew what was going to happen?

Peggy's story is my own. I was hired as secretary to the creative director, he began giving me assignments, and eventually made me a copywriter. By 1972, there were many more women working in creative departments, but since I'd started out as a secretary, it was still an uphill battle, and I wasn't taken seriously until I left that agency. I went on to a 35-year career in a profession that was endlessly fascinating and became a creative director myself. But it was my first boss who saw something in me and I'll always be grateful. I'm watching Peggy's story with interest.

@deep dish: Yes. I too got the feeling Betty ran to the bathroom 'cause her water was breaking.

As for teachers wondering what was going on at home,
I experienced it in '68. Don't know about '63 as I wasn't in school yet.

On a serious note, how about Don living by the Hobo Code? He gives Sal his chance and when it doesn’t turn out well, he doesn’t back down from his decision. Sal’s loyalty was born with that fraternal punch of the arm. Sal will follow Don to the ends of the earth. I am starting to wonder about Peggy, though. The arc of her storyline will include the inevitability of her own career advancement and her loyalty to the person who first recognized her talents.

@llama-I only read the wikipedia b4 I posted, and it was not very clear. But I read other defs, whatever. Again, bring attention to it, and it'll keep spouting. I don't dictate & I don't invoke thoughts. I do read the rules below, though.

I haven't seen this discussed much, but there was something really decent about the way Don tried to protect and advise Ho Ho. I can't imagine Bert ("Kill or be killed") or Roger doing the same thing. Underneath the Dick Whitman disguise, and all the affairs, there is something about Don that makes him want to be a good human being. He wants to be a loving husband and father. He just feels incapable of it, or perhaps even bored by it, and we;ve seen this anguish and frustration on his face every episode of this season.

@FancyNancy: Please start another thread to tell me about you Jude Law siting! I'm sooo jealous!

I was quite surprised at the jai alai story line and even more surprised when they showed the photo -- it was an old friend and co-worker who played under the name Guarita at Miami Jai-Alai. Hope he was watching! He is considered one of the top three players in history -- poetry in motion.

Oh good grief. Anti-Semites. Really?

"Forum Nazi" is a very common term used on the internet for someone who tries to tell other people what they can and cannot discuss. It isn't the prettiest term, but its use certainly doesn't mean the person using it is an anti-semite. A bit crude maybe, but anti-semite, no.

Geez, overreact much?

Anyone notice that Peggy referred to ruining her pantyhose on long commutes to and from the office? I don't believe that in 1963 panyhose were invented yet. At least I didn't wear them. Had to use the old garter belt, etc.

Also Gene colapsed at the am/pm. Right. Those were not around in 1963 as well.

And while I'm at it... the Selectric typewriters in Don's office weren't around until early 70's, which I think was mentioned by another viewer in the second season.

Please stop criticizing Lucky Strike and Zabadu, they are two of my favorite posters!

LLama :Please, am curious --tell more on Godwins Law...

NanaBenz: Liked your post on Don/father/son
when looking at the photo.... time will tell!

LovesMM --Bobbys "war is bad" kind of jarred me as well...comments like that from a five (?) year old?? But perhaps Don has responded to questions from Bobby where he mentions Korea, being in a war etc. and Don tells Bobby "war is bad" etc.

Re the WWI helmet, Don very well may have an abhorrence of war, and perhaps he doesn't want to have this object glorified in Bobbys world, esp as a toy. His comment about a person having worn that helmet (subtext: even if they were "the enemy") indicates that he views it as way more than harmless. IMO....

I too am a bit confused that some people aren't liking this season.

Maybe that is because I enjoy all aspects of it from the set design and fashion to the way the cinematography is done and the subtle cultural references. I enjoy the little character development moments. If the plot points move slowly it doesn't bother me that much.

I guess we all like the show for different reasons. I am enjoying it as a bit of a peek into my parents world.

Dear Steph,

Does anyone know what options would be open to Kitty? I'm not very savvy on what advice she would get during that period...like whither her friends/family would advise her to get an annulment, or rather they would advise her that he was just going through a 'phase' and she should try and be sexier or something?

I really don't know, insight from someone would be great. I'm rooting for poor Kitty!

Hi Ms Rustycat, Gene collapsed not at am/pm, but at the A&P - most definitely around in'63. And we've done pantyhose to death. That topic actually as its own thread. Go to main page, then list all topics and you'll find it there.

mrscano05: Yes, I also was driven crazy trying to place the actor who played Horace Sr.....when the credits rolled, I was so excited to see David Selby's name.....I was a huge fan of his too from Dark Shadows.
The insightful comments from posters about Don coming to terms with his childhood and parents are so brilliant. It is as if he realizes he made it on his own even with horrible parents.
Again, Don's nobility is what I love about his character. His sleeping around may not be admired, but his nobility in business situations and his relationships with Anna and Peggy are NOBLE

When is Betty going to have her baby? She is still pregnant in next week’s episode and I just don’t see a big baby scene on the show. Could you imagine Betty calling Don at work and telling him she is in labor? I don’t see that happening. Next week’s show takes place a week or 2 after last night’s so I sure hope that by episode 6 we have a new little Draper.

has anyone been able to name Sally's doll in the policeman scene? I think I had that same doll

More on the Peggy moving to Manhattan thing. The Swedish-ancestry roomie says "No sailors" to Peggy, who is at least half Norwegian. The first Norwegians to settle in Peggy's Brooklyn neighborhood of Bay Ridge were...sailors!

Also, I mentioned earlier that Sweden was regarded by us puritanical yankees as the land of the sexual liberation. Ann-Margret, whose image keeps popping up, was born in Sweden and her last name is Olsson. It's no coincidence that Peggy (another Olson, albeit Norwegian) wants to emulate her! By the way, I think Katherine, Peggy's mom, must be Irish, hence Peggy's Catholic upbringing. Norwegians are typically Lutherans, not Catholic.

@wasthere: I agree.

@miss_rustycat, we have established several times previously that pantihose were indeed available in the 60's. I personally remember wearing them to work in the in l960 and even in the 50's. Also, Gene collapsed at the A&P grocery store. The A&P was a large chain in the 60's. Again, I shopped for my groceries at my local A&P. Also, I used an IBM Selectric typewriter at work, but I'm not sure whether it was exactly the same as those used in the SC offices.

Just remember most of these posters are in their 20s, and nothing was invented before 1995 to them.

miss_rustycat: In response to your anachronisms post, pantyhose were in existence, they just didn't become popular until the late sixties due to the "necessity" of wearing a girdle under all those form-fitting fashions of the time. Also, they were more pricey than stockings; if you got a run in one leg, you had to toss them.

The officer said that Gene collapsed in the A&P, a supermarket chain that began at the turn of the (20th) century, not the AM/PM convenience store.

Yes, it's true that the Selectric models shown are from the mid to late seventies (although my dad's secretary had one of the earlier models in 1962). Can't remember why, but read last season there was a reason they did that.

@mctwisty: Thank You! That fact is easy to forget on the internetz!

Deep Dish - you beat me to it. I may strangle the next poster with her own pantyhose if it gets asked again (just kidding.)

There would most certainly be an A&P supermarket in Ossinning at that time. The company itself goes back about 150 years - remember plaid stamps? Grandpa Gene said he'd pick up peaches at the store for Sally. He must have collapsed on his way out just after buying them.

The helmet was from World War I - no Nazis, just Germans/Prussians.

Teachers did certainly ask about changes in the home if there was a notable sudden change for the worse in a child's behavior. I smiled at her pleased observation that BOTH of Sally's parents came; dads didn't often sow for parent-teacher conferences because they were at work and not expected to participate that much in a child's school life.

Was a bit bored by this ep, but so far, this season has been slow anyway.

I worked in publishing under BBD&O on Madison Avenue in '65 and '66 and was a wild child w/own apartment and roommate. In those great days, if you said you had a 'Swedish' roommate, it had the connotation that you would be willing to party or have people over to use your apartment to party and the more people, the better. It was definitely party time in NYC then! Another phrase used frequently was "Swedish stewardess," meaning the same thing - partay all night long and usually if you were Scandinavian and blond, you could get a lot of guys to those parties quickly! Those were pre-hippie wild times!

Re Sally's speech, unless she is more precocious than she acts, it was way too long and more long a rebellious teen's angst/anger, although justified, IMO.

And since when is becoming a bra-burning hippie something bad? Most of our generation were of that philosophy and I'm sure they didn't all have cold parents like B&D.

@Jane Hudson:
YOU'RE anxious for the baby to arrive? Just think how Betty feels.

that's "show" - fat finger syndrome today

PS - Also, PJ Clarke's on a Friday night was like trying to get into Studio 54 - unless you were a blond Swedish stewardess. Then you had carte blanche.

Also rode many elevators with the BBD&O guys and they acted like you treated them, much like people today. Once my g/f and I purposely stood in the front and announced "We are calling this meeting today for the purpose of ....." Whatever, you had to be there, but they were hysterical. Good times.

so many great points being discussed following such a great episode. on the sneek peek, Betty has to go to the ladies room, leaving Miss Maypole and Don alone, i can see Don offering his buisness card. Call me at work anytime, if Sally acts out. Don't want to bother Mrs. D in her condition. Betty will not be in need of "Tending" after the baby arrives. Times out well for him and "Teach" to have their own Summer of Love

I and other posters have mentioned the Livia Soprano =Betty Draper comparisons. The childrens birth order, girl boy girl, married to powerful men who cheat on them, horrible martyrlike parenting technique, and both hubbies with secret stashes of money lying around.The time line of Sopranos childhood would be close. Maybe they can run into each other at the Jersey Shore, or Palisades Amusement Park.

"her friends/family would advise her to get an annulment, or rather they would advise her that he was just going through a 'phase' "

If she had the guts to even tell anyone they would probably tell her to get pregnant as soon as possible and that would straighten him out..

I dunno. I didn't get the teacher/Don vibe. He seems to be moving away from that, at least close to home.

I loved seeing Sally drive the car (and the little smile of satisfaction/accomplishmnet). The Relationship between the kids and Grandpa Gene was so cool - - and typical. Grandparents find a new audience in their grandchildren. Their own kids have long ago gotten sick of hearing the same old boring stories. My Dad taught my kids how to make a potato gun (I coulda killed him!)

I doubt Kitty will tell anyone. It would ruin Sal's career. Homosexuality was illegal back then. If anything, she'll think it's her fault.

The cash in the drawer of Don's desk....It's his "mad" money or get-away money in case his secret is ever discovered.
And probably Betty gets a generous household allowance and has very little knowledge of their financial situation. And why would she care since he has apparently been very generous???

I was struck by how frail actor David Selby looked in this episode. Is he ill?

I wonder what her second ad was like if her first read: Working girl seeks roommate

I’m a clean, responsible, considerate person who wants a roommate to share expenses in Manhattan.

Allergic to cats but will tolerate dogs.

I have some nice furniture and a small television. Serious and financially secure women only, please.

Margaret Olson
Sterling Cooper
23rd floor

*********

You know Peggy never repeats her mistakes. (When she answered her phone as 'Margaret,' I had to chuckle.) You notice she ran to the table to jot Joan's suggestion down as a reminder for her second effort. Now we know why she didn't hesitate to move the flyer about the free kitties to post her own ad.

Did you notice how quickly Joan came up with those choice few words to sell the idea? She consistently finds a way to handle any situation. Whether anyone at Sterling Cooper ever recognizes her talent remains unclear. Joan's story, going either direction, makes great scripted drama. Peggy's job requires that she learn how to do what Joan did...write good copy to sell her ideas. We'll see if she excels in this position. I've seen a lot of women who do what Peggy is doing....just working darn hard at it.

thank you scavok for the GAY BOYFRIEND!
it made me smile. as a gay man, i can attest to the deep friendships that sometimes happen between gay guys and straight women (some of my best friends are women lol ) and these bonds can be very long lasitng. i am sure that in his own way sal really loves kitty and wouldn't hurt her for the world- but we know there ain't no other way out that closet once the door is open. stonewall is just around the corner, and now we don't have to make the same choices sal had to.

madmengirl

- I only watched the episode once so far, so will have more insight after 2nd watch, but your interest in Betty's relationship with her father and mother, and how that shaped her, is interesting to me as well.

Yes, she is a child raising children. She is petulant and in fact jealous of her own kids. At one point I honestly thought that Betty had been sexually abused by her father. Sexual abuse can cause one to be "frozen" emotionally at a certain age when the abuse started. I'm not sure though now...It may be that her father simply babied her and made her his little princess. And maybe her mother was not so perfect.

I do think her exalted opinion of her mother is skewed. I am now wondering if perhaps her mother was very cold and unloving, but Betty choses to remember her differently. Making your child walk home from the store because she's fat suggest a person who was a perfectionist and cared very much about surface appearances. I think Betty's inability to bond with her own children and her coldness may have stemmed from her own lack of mothering. As a note: my grandmother was very cold as a mother. My mother grew up disliking her, but her two sisters, who'd been treated the same, craved her approval their entire lives and thought she was perfect. Perhaps Betty's "memories" of her mother and her father are skewed. Her father was the warm one and her mother cold.

To those who say Betty should have never had children, I agree, and there are many women who do and shouldn't. Especially in this MM era. There were a few paths for women to take and marriage and motherhood were considered a given. You got married and you had kids. End of story. My mother grew up smack in the middle of this time, from a similar background; wealthy, college educated, and everything here seems completely accurate. The smoking and drinking while pregnant (the excessive drinking in general). My Mom has mentioned several friends who had children who shouldn't have. Most had the means to hire help and didn't have to deal much with the kids.

Someone earlier asked about the comments Gene was making to Betty when he was going over his arrangements. I thought he called her Scarlet O'Hara at one point. I took it as a reference to the character in Gone With the Wind. She acted like a spoiled child most of the time, but underneath it all, she was as tough as nails. I think that's how he sees Betty, and why he made her executor rather than his son.

LovesMM commented about Bobby's War is bad comment and Don's reaction to the helmet. My dad was a WWII vet and he did not glorify war. He once got in a heated discussion with one of my friends over the Vietnam War which really surprised me. I realize now that those who have lived thru the horrors of war are often the ones who are most against it. Gene was looking way back thru the fog of years, probably remembering his time in the trenches as some of his best.

"when the cake is on the plate
I'm afraid to gain some weight
But now I have some extra room
Patio you make me swoon
Diet cola's tasted fine
get your own cause this one's mine
It's the brand new slender you
Now we'll have you singing too
Bye bye sugar etc

Now I know what was wrong with the ad, they wrote a terrible jingle. The girl can't sing, Sorry Don I don't think Sal is very good at directing. The girl is singing important parts of the song with her butt to the camera,her hair is in her face to the point of distraction. if this was by choice, even worse.

Did anyone notice the Patio Cola people reacted like the Lucky Strike people in season one until Don said "It's toasted" and they were won over. Similar accent as well.

And who was the blonde working the projector. Also nice try to save it Ken. Where was Don's attempt.Thought that was Don's specialty. And to those who think Ken is gay and headed for a relationship with Sal, no way. not gay, he is just from New Hampshire

didn't mean to bash New Hampshire, after all I don't want the 472 people living there as of the 2000 census to be mad at me

Did anyone notice that Betty refers to the pending new baby as "her"

harvey561: Yes, she seems convinced it is a girl, but I think I saw a photo taken during production that shows Betty carrying a baby in a blue blanket. All the more disappointment to send her into the deep end.

Gene called Betty Scarlett (O'Hara) because in "Gone with the Wind," Scarlett never wanted to take care of things and was always saying she "would take care of it tomorrow." Betty always wanted to put off discussions of his impending demise. Actually, it was one of the most loving things he would do for her and William. Having his affairs in order is something Betty cannot appreciate because she's so selfish and self-centered. The first thing she did was call Don.

I'm liking how Don is stepping up to the plate. I'm not liking how frozen all the adults are in their grief. I wonder how old Sally was when her Grandma Ruth died? Can you tell I had wonderful grandparents? Surviving their deaths was a transitional moment in my life. I think Sally is realizing the same moment in hers.

@Betsy, you are hysterical "Go watch TV

Betty is a perfect candidate for postpartum depression. She's already depressed and angry, ambivalent about her pregnancy, and now dealing the her father's death. These are enough to push her over the edge, add having a baby the wrong sex? Yikes! I'd be surprised if MM doesn't show us how this condition, unknown in '63 was dealt with at the time.

OK. We've now established that it is possible but not probable that Peggy was wearing pantyhose and not stockings in 1963. The girls from NYC that I dated didn't start with them until 67 or 68.

But why would she have to sit on a newspaper to protect them from the cane subway seats? Skirts in 63 were never that short! Reminds me of the mini-skirt mistake that showed up on the Mohawk Air Lines comps from season one (or two?).

Nevertheless, Peggy rocks! Especially her mourning the Pope's death: "He's still dead Ma!" (and ain't gonna resurrect)

Love that girl.

Sally was out of line. She was eavesdropping on an adult conversation. I think Betty handled herself. My mother would have smacked me (for not being in a child's place). There was a reason she wasn't at the table. She was not supposed to be there. Lay off Betts. Humor is a way to handle grief (crack about Gloria). Sally can't appreciate that because she's a child. I thought her outburst was obnoxious.

Regarding the lack of sex this season, Peggy's gettin' some and Roger's gettin' some, and Sal almost got some. It seems like the sex is desperate. Peggy's encounter was just to prove that she can be like the "other girls in the office" as Roger so clumsily put it. Roger's mid-life crisis child bride is so pathetic, "you look foolish" as Don aptly put it. Sal's brief encounter in Baltimore was the most real and passionate, though sadly halted. Look for more sex at SC and less at home with all the marrieds (Poor, sweet, unattended Kitty). Loved her green negligee. I am so heart broken for her, just like my heart broke for Betts regarding Don's cheating.

First time poster here....and full on maddict.

What I simply can't understand is why they make Betty so unlikeable. I want to slap her every time she pops on the screen. I can feel something (or at least understanding) for every other character on this show, but not Betty. At all. You know, I remember seeing January Jones in an episode of Law and Order. She played a manipulative "badie". Now, I know everyone says what a brilliant actress she is, but I am beginning to think that maybe she really is just a stuck-up, catty, b*tch - and that's what comes through. I read an interview with her in Vanity Fair and, in my opinion, she doesn't come off as friendly in the interview either. And I find it hard to believe that every other character has an element of "warmth" (albeit often only a glimmer), but Betty has none. Zero. Zlich. Nada. I beginning to think that we are supposed to feel something (empathy/sympathy) for Betty, but JJ just doesn't deliver.

Then again, I could be completely wrong. Perhaps MW has intentionally created Betty as a tried and true cold-hearted spolied person and JJ is a sweetheart, in which case she deserves an Emmy!

Experiencing Pantyhose Frustration? scroll on by.... ;)

@hugh maybe her calves rub the front edge of the cane seat when she sits or stands and that could snag and ruin her pantyhose?

I was surprised to see this new episode last night. It's a good thing I found it.
This had lots of stuff in it.
Sal and Kitty. The look on her face, while watching Sal be Ann-Margaret. This was her ah ha moment. Is this the beginning of their 'arrangement'? Un-comfortable!!!! But compelling!
Gene and Sally: There are moments between them that gives Sally the look of Betty. She really starts to look more mature. Gene seemed so lucid, but then he was salting ice cream and smelling limes? Whatever, I thought he was having hallucinations, of the olfactory kind.
Sally driving was priceless. What a "Betty" she was!

Peggy, my fav. She has now begun her new life. Now, with more of Joan's help, she can snag a "baby Joan" to live with. This woman will guide Peggy in her female role. Peggy is very interested, and will live with her. She never stops looking at what she wants for herself. She is always trying to learn. She is absolutely daring!

This whole season, Mad Med have been defined by their Mad Women. The men just follow along, reacting.

I loved that Don really gave Sal some props. Don is magic!
I just like to ring in once a week.

@hugh: For the record, one does not need a short skirt for any rough edge to snag one's pantyhose. I don't know if the cane seats part is true, but if they are, the simple act of standing or sitting could easily snag one's pantyhose unless one's skirt were ankle length. When one wears knee length, full skirts, the act of sitting pulls the back of the skirt to mid-thigh, making the newspaper thing necessary.

@Msnikki: Out of line Sally may have been, even obnoxious. It was a reaction born of the emotion of losing the only adult she perceived cared about her.

I'm pretty certain the baby is born this next episode. The photo on the main page shows Sally in her PJs eating breakfast. From Don's look, he hasn't been to bed all night. Just home from the hospital I'd bet.

And David Sebly, of course! Remember Falcon Crest?

Maybe Peggy (and that episode's writer) came up with the statement about the cane seating ripping her pantyhose because she couldn't tell her mother the real reasons she wants to move to Manhattan. Namely, that she wants a different life.

Sal has been promoted to commercial director. Anyone else think that this will be his passageway to meeting lots of young gay men (as in actors and models for the commercials) and launching his sexual exploration? Since Sal and Kitty are both Catholic, I think Kitty is going to have to go to the Church for an annullment.

Several people have mentioned the Norwegian Catholic segment of Peggy's life. Back in those days, before vatican 2, when Peggy's mom got married, Catholics would not marry a noncatholic unless they converted or at least promised to raise any children in the Catholic tradition. So, it's possible Peggy's Dad was Lutheran, but converted to marry her mom.

I am a major fan of MadMen, but I'm afraid the show is being seriously damaged by over-selling. This is an irony for a show about the Ad biz.

In my market (Tucson) there were six promos or ads between each segment and seven before the final segment. Why not charge more for fewer ads?

I've commented on this on my blog: http://tucsonCitizen.com/dataport.

Not picking a fight here, but I am seriously concerned.

@Boop regarding the Sal and Kitty scene I agree with you. the actress conveyed so much without saying a word. you were inside her head as her excitement while watching her potential "Conquering Hero turned to confusion, concern, and heartbreak without a word of dialogue from her A well crafted scene.
@bipolarbear. though I am male, I can testify that those cane seats were very uncomfortable, and many times a thick tread of it could be loose and could inflict pain, even through what we called "Dungarees" anyone else remember that term for Jeans. The straw seats were on the way out in 63, but some cars were still in service into the 70's, they also had overhead fans and a wierd staggered seating pattern. I think they were more often found on the BMT line which to me was a notch below the IRT at that time. that flip flopped when the BMT cars were replaced with more modern cars in the seventies.

big oops. sorry, now I see Don is in his PJs, too. so, I take it back.

@vancan....You've got to remember, Betsy is pregnant with a child she doesn't want, married to a man who cheats on her, living with the secret that she is no better, stuck in a role (motherhood) when what she really wanted to be is a famous model. And her father just died.

That doesn't make her likeable -- she's a selfish, spoiled little girl -- but it does explain it. a little. I think a lot of us are correct, that she's heading to a big crash after the baby is born, and I think the writers will soften her up a little for us. THere are few true heroes or villains in this show. Even Gene, who seemed like a jerk early on, became a real human being in this episode.

I guess I'm saying that I'll be surprised if Betty's character isn't different a few weeks from now than what it is right now.

Peggy has had a roommate before ...remember the night drunk Pete came over for sex? But the new Peggy wants a different kind of roommate.

Yes...Betty is selfish...calling her father selfish is known in psychology as "projection".

@deepdish: check the main MM page for a sneak peak of next week. Sure looks like the bathroom break Betty needs from the parent teacher conference could certainly be her water breaking.

KBF, very true. Betty's gonna crash. I remember when she was overwhlemed with taking care of the children she told Don she was was the one with them all day - outnumbered.

I wonder if Don will dig inside that little drawer of his and hire full time help.

JimK, I agree completely with your post WAY up there that something is off with this season, and with your well-thought-out reasons; so far we're in the minority, so I wanted to chime in with you. I said last week, too, that even though individual scenes/storylines are good, as a whole the show seems shapeless, unfocused and the writing lazy.

I have to think that something is wrong with the show when, on a thread with over 800 comments, a sizable number of them deal with the Swedish/Norwegian conundrum. And how many times and different ways can we say Betty is a bad mother? There just is not enough "meat" this season to disect.

Also, HoHo is nuts, and Pete and SC are more than happy to take advantage of him; Don realized that at the dinner and refused to play along.

The song "Over There"...that was Gene's eulogy?

...living arrangments
...funeral arrangments...
...sports arrangements...
...gaydar arrangements?

Oops, over 300 (almost 400 now) posts, not 800!

There are no absolutely wonderful mothers on Mad Men and this includes Peggy, who has a child somewhere. Betty kept her children, no matter what she goes through personally.

I like Betty , who on MadMen isn't flawed? I think she was upset that her father died, she had every right to be, it was her dad

The thing about MadMen is all the characers are somewhat depressed and have hidden secrets.
Joan, Peggy Don, Betty,Sal,on and on, all of them.

Sal copied the Bye Bye Birdie Ann Margaret video-movie clip too a tee, an exact copy every movement, every Hair flick, head turned and all, That was the whole Point, it was exactly what the clients said they wanted, but the problem was as Roger said the girl was not Ann Margaret. In a ad campaign it didn't work. Sal did a excellent job in filming exactly what the clients asked for, that is why Don promoted him, It was obvious Sal could complete a vision asked for by the clients. The clients had what they asked for and it didn't work.

@boop the show has always been about the women, in my estimation.

@vancan I definitely go with the January Jones as brilliant actress explanation. I'm old enough to see that she portrays the character petulant and frustrated in a very sixties way, not like a modern woman with the same problems. Compare her pout to Gwyneth Paltrow's for instance. I think she's the real deal and likely to have great options even beyond this Mad Men tour-de-force she's having.

And I don't understand those who say Betty is in no way a sympathetic character. She has a philandering husband, she's college-educated but marginalized to the suburbs, and now both her parents have died while she's still pretty young. Could she be forgiven a little bit of coldness and snippiness? Those who fault her treatment of the children should remember (as someone pointed out earlier) that our child-centric culture, where Mommy engages every second instead of exiling bratty kids to the TV, is a product of the 80's and beyond. Baby-boomers like Sally and Bobby were at first lampooned for how self-centered they were, in fact. It has now become the norm especially among affluent Americans to center your life on your kids but it wasn't always that way...and I leave to others the question about which era was healthier!

@Mambo Deb and JimK: Could it be that now that the mystery of Don's secret life was solved, it's just not that interesting? I can understand what you're saying. I'm not sure if I started viewing MM this season I would be a die hard fan. There's just no intrigue as to what might happen. Is that it, ya think?

@oneiric: " Baby-boomers like Sally and Bobby were at first lampooned for how self-centered they were, in fact. It has now become the norm especially among affluent Americans to center your life on your kids but it wasn't always that way...and I leave to others the question about which era was healthier!"

It's always a big pendulum swing, isn't it? Never a happy medium.

Someone asked here if peaches were ripe in May. Their chronology is a bit off. Episode 4 begins sometime after Monday, 6/3/63 when Pope John XXIII died and definitely ended the evening of Tuesday, 6/11/63 when Kennedy made his famous civil rights address to the nation and news of the first Buddhist monk suicide protest in Saigon broke. I'm pretty certain of the historical context both from peronal memory (I was 8 in 1963) and from my profession as a historian.

Seems that the majority of posters are hating cold, heartless, immature Betty Draper, the terrible mother. I guess you would have had to have a mom like mine in order to consider Betts normal. But here's the thing: her mother recently died, her Dad Alzed out (then died), her brother's a nincompoop, her husband cheats on her and she knows it, and her shrink, who was supposed to be helping her, betrayed her brutally. All the usual support systems have failed. Now she's in the throes of raging hormones, enduring an unplanned pregnancy, about to have a third child when for the last year or so, two have been too much. I wonder if most of us hate her because she's beautiful. As if that weren't enough of a sin, she appears to have it all: handsome husband, healthy kids, plenty of money, gorgeous home, household help, blah blah. With all of this, she is therefore SUPPOSED to be happy, sweet, kind, and together. ?

I appreciate that Weiner and his writers gave us this incredibly complex character.

joneric, I think you are being very generous with Betty. The only times I can recall Betty making any kind of physical contact with Sally is when she grabbed her arm to throw her in the closet, when she "allowed" Sally to remove her riding boots, and once she was showing Sally how to put on makeup. A little cold? She is ice.

Last night, at least, Don did call Sally "sweetheart"

Could this show be set in the 2000s with the same exact characters and SLs and still be successful? I think it could due to the writing-it's brilliant compared to other shows on TV
The 60s twist just adds to its mystique and gives more fodder for posters

I agree Deep Dish about Betty. Betty was my mother down to the same cigarette brand, Salem.
After her third child, Betty will have nervous breakdowns and perhaps shock treatments. Maybe she will turn to the bottle, but no way will she have a constructive life. If MW knows his stuff, Sally won't have anything to do with her mother after she is 18 and leaves the house. She will side with her father. ;)

I still think something is going to happen to Betty's baby. Perhaps born with disabilities, or the baby dies at birth or soon afterward.

There could be a JFK/Jackie Don/Betty connection. I know Jackie's baby died within a few days of birth in August of 1963. I don't know...just a feeling I have.

IwasPeggy, you make some very good points, truly. But we all know people who've had it rough, really rough with sick parents, sick children, hormones, financial problems, rocky marriage, etc. etc. etc. I have friends and wonderful coworkers who have unbelievable burdens in their lives. But they are still loving to their children.

You are right about Weiner. They are all complex and this why we hate waiting another week to see what happens to them.

60schild, I'm with you. There is just something ominous in the air. I don't think that baby will live. And there is no way, no way Betty could deal with a child with disabilities. She doesn't like the ones she already has that are fine.

and remember when Bobby burned his lips? No hug there, either. She was pissed that she had to bring him to the ER. And Sally, when Betty drove the car off the road, her biggest concern was that Sally could have gotten a scar and her life would be OVER.

@MelbaToast I agree with your suggestion that Bobby may be mimicking what he had heard Don say about war being bad. My sons do this all the time. They say something that doesn’t ring true for their own age/personality, but then if I think about it, I can trace their statements back either to myself, their dad or their stepmom (and occasionally their teacher or the television). Like Don, I’m always “surprised” to hear my children assimilate my ideas.

@vancan Hopefully now that Betty is an “orphan,” this will allow the writers to deepen her story arc and show her maturing into her role as mother and wife (and relinquish the idea of being Gene’s “little girl”).

Incidentally, did anyone notice the camera angle when Betty uttered that line, “I’m your little girl.” The angle and the way her blue dress puffed out because of her pregnancy made her look very large. As a former pregnant woman, I was mad at myself for laughing at the visual pun.

@aralston127 It took me two views to figure out that Joan was spraying bug repellant on the broken ant farm. The angle threw me off at first (I thought she was at home because she was cleaning). That has to be symbolic in some way : )

I loved seeing how the Pete vs. Ken showdown plotline is off and running. It looks like Pete won round one with his Jai Alai account. Ken, on the other hand, had a failure with the potential Patio account. I loved how Don said, “Cosgrove!” right before he smashed the glass ant farm. Is that the glass ceiling crashing for Ken? Good thing the new Commercial Director seems to hold a flame for him : )

I also enjoyed the subtle contrast between Sal and Peggy. Peggy shows smugness after the Patio ad fails, exchanging a look with Don. Sal, on the other hand, shows humility, blaming himself for the failure. It’s interesting that Sal is the one that gets promoted.

As for the Patio ad, besides the obvious that the girl was not Ann-Margret, it was odd to watch an ad targeted for “women who want to reduce” being aimed more at men. If they had used a target group to critique the commercial, I am sure they could have nailed down what was not quite right.

p.s. Was the Ann-Margret clone purposely less petite?

The irony about Gene telling his grandson about the benefits and glories of war is that his grandson's destiny will most likely involve Vietnam. As for Sally watching the Buddhist monk setting himself aflame in South Vietnam, becoming an anti-war protester would be an appropriate way to channel pent-up feelings of frustration and anger against the adults who will be seen as screwing up the world. We know the future and so, in watching these episodes, the significance of these small events sends chills down my spine.
Also, the phrase 'I, he, she - could have been someone' was repeated at least 4 times by different characters in different circumstances. What to make of this?

I don't remember the Buddist monk. Did they really show that on TV? That surprises me - in '63 I thought they were still holding back. Years later they still would not let "Genie" show her navel.

Bipolarbear, the fact that so much about Don's past has been revealed may be part of the reason the show seems flat this year; the last two seasons Don's mysterious past and personality were pretty much the axis on which many of the plots turned. There has been no unifying thread to replace that mystery.

But there is more to it than that; my husband says it's just becoming another soap opera. I don't think we've reached that stage yet, but it's closer than I care to go. I'll keep watching, of course, because it's better than 90% of what's on tv.

Bobby is too young to go to Viet Nam; I think he's supposed to have been born in 56.

I remember pictures of the Bhuddist monk in Life and/or Look magazines, but not on tv.

LOVELY and LIVELY MADDICTS:
Stuck at The Charlotte "International" Airport. Since 9/11, Domestic AND International air travel is so tedious and time-consuming! Borrowed a cutie exec's Macbook to read and post. We don't have laptops or Blackberries: Cheap Neo-Luddites we can be. . .

I'm having a gigantic (BORING) Seltzer. I have to help Dr.K grade quizzes when we return to Avalon (about 8pm EST). I had a humongous cheeseburger at "The Spotted Pig" at 1:30 (God-ala Norman Mailer, that place was packed w/ gorgeous folks-albeit too many tattoos and Flip-Flops {in SEPTEMBER for chissakes}) and a bottle of NV "Bollinger" Champagne. DELISH and "tranquillative." Dr. K. is MAD at me: he maintains that I really showed my true-colors this wknd. What are they??? YAWN.

I wish those MADDICTS who lament the "SLOW" storyline and EXCESSIVE Advertisers this season wd RELAX and have a COCKTAIL. MW is crafting an EPIC VISUAL NOVEL-there is not going to be WAR nor fireworks in every episode. Unprecedented, REALLY, in the media of TV and FILM. Dr.K. claims this is the BEST season yet (WANKER!). After we got back to the Rivington after our adventure at Beekman's (10:45pm), HE got the legal pad outta his attache to number the scenes and take notes!? (talk about the most PURR-FECT Foreplay...) MADMEN needs these high profile supporters for the cash to continue. THAT'S SHO-BIZ. And we've really got them (VIAGRA does get tiresome tho' !?)

MMM, Dr.K. is dozing, I'm gonna sneak a double shot of Dewars to perk me up.

Definitions to think about and create: MADAGOGY; MADAMORPHOSIS; MADJUNCT; MADMONISH; MADRICULATE; MADDRESS; MADTONEMENT; MADALLURGY; MADERNITY; MADROIT; MADAMORPHOSES; MADOPOLY; MADACTION; MADOPTION; MADAPTATION. . .CHEERS!!!

YES, it's a MADMADMAD World !

@IWasPeggy I don't hate Betty, I agree that she has little or no emotional support, and her beauty only makes her flaws seem all the uglier. These flawed female characters are why I love the show: they are more like women in real life!

Women sometimes are frustrated, and can hate their husbands for having affairs and may long for the days that they were "daddy's little girls." I'd say it was harder in this era to let those feelings show, and even now see how Betty is judged for not doing "all the right things" with her children?

If Betty smothered her children with affection and turned them against their father or spoiled them to fill her own void or whatever any mother can do that's somehow "bad," it's just a realization that although our own mothers may not have done the things Betty does, they all must have done something we didn't like. Or does someone out there actually have a perfect mother?

I just watched onTIVO again and figured out that it was the ant farm that Joan was spraying. How clever of them to make a clumsy move by Don (a rare thing indeed) into something funny. I do think there was some significance to the angle that they filmed Joan and how short the scene was, just another intricate and subtle way of forshadowing the looming events to come in the late 60's and early 70's - women's lib, here we come... clean your own damn ant farm!

I was apparently not the only one who was afraid of all those intimate scenes with Grandpa and Sally. Even if it had not been for his inappropriate and disturbing pass at his own daughter when he mistook her for her mother, I would have thought it. Stranger things have happened, god how we all know that by now. So I guess I'm glad the old man kicked the bucket "naturally" before anything else icky happened. Poor Sally's got it rough enough as it is.

There was a major "fashion" faux pas in this episode..Weiner is supposedly quite a stickler for details..but somebody missed this one..Peggy talks about her pantyhose..but we all know that there weren't any pantyhose then,,plus we have before seen Peggy, Joan and Betty in their stockings and garterbelts.

My issue with Betty is that she NEVER shows warmth or spontaneous affection towards either of her children. It's like she's got a permanent frown on her face with them. She lights up with delight when she arrives at Roger's party but barely acknowledges her own kids when they're practically begging for attention. I'm coming to believe she's more damaged than Don.

Oh dear God - can Lily please filter out the word pantyhose from ALL future posts?????

@Deep Dish: I don't know about '63, but I promise you by '68 all the death and destruction of Viet Nam was blatantly portrayed on the nightly news, complete with death counts of our boys. It used to depress me. I was 8 yrs old.

Yes I agree this was a great episode, I watched it again at midnight to see a few mumbled comments I missed the first time around. As a 50 year old, a few of the things that really got me was just the sight of that ice cream in the simple folded cardboard container. I remember my brother and I flattening those containers out on the kitchen counter and licking every last drop out of the folds. The best thing about watching this show is the reaction of my teenage sons, they thought the scene with Sally driving was just outrageous, but I clearly remember my cool uncle Dave letting me drive when I was 9 or 10 and making me swear I would never tell my parents. These post have already covered every delicious nuance of these scenes, especially Kittys baby doll nightie and her apparently " seeing the light" as Sal pranced about the bedroom wishing HE was Ann Margaret. But I must raise the question about the peaches that Gene supposedly bought. If Gene collapsed in the A&P , why would the peaches be in the car later ? are we supposed to imagine the EMT's are sweeping the peaches up and putting them on the gurney and then put them in the car? I know , I know that sounds picky but this show is always so fleshed out in its story line... My client here in Chicago is Kiersten Shipka's dad and I must let him know that little Sally stole the show last night, what an impressive job for a kid her age.

I have to be the one, Jai Alai is a fast fame, 175 mph, who is worried about taking balls to the face!

By inspiron on September 7, 2009 4:56 PM
Could this show be set in the 2000s with the same exact characters

nope...
betty would have her kids taken by DHS
SC would have a truck load of law suits against them

game even

sorry, one more post: aralson127, you took the words right out of my subconscious, I cringed every time they showed Sally alone with Gene especially after feeling up his daughter, and if something inappropriate had happened I could imagine the writers have Betty hide it/suppress it or blaming Sally somehow

@Auburn Annie Agreed, Betty may be more damaged than Don. But Don had his release through his affairs and workplace power/creativity. What is Betty's release, looking lovely in beautiful clothes? She was horseback riding but that got all wacky with that one guy and now she's preggers....so it's down to just smoking and drinking! ha!

Who knew pantyhose was such a major issue? Anyone who has had the unfortunate experience of having to wear the dang things!

IWasPeggy: Thanks for introducing some balance to the Betty discussion. I have to admit, the character has gotten pretty unsympathetic and it's useful to be reminded that she == like all the characters we're seeing here -- is just a human being trying to survive in her unique circumstances.

That being said, I think Betty is amazingly immature and self absorbed. Her frustration at having to raise her kids, essentially, alone, and the lonliness she feels following her mother's death, the fear she experienced when her best friend's husband cheated, the ugliness of her own husband's infidelity....all these things make her behavior reasonable and consistent. But I think it is her image of herself as a "princess" and "Daddy's little girl" that has arrested her development. She can't be a good mother because she's still a child. And she shows no signs of wanting to grow up.

My other gripe with Betty is that she's shown virtually no interest in who her husband is, where he comes from, what his family life was like, what formed his character and his life. How can you be married to someone for a decade and not bother to find out? Is she just not interested? Did she just buy a package that looked and sounded like the good husband? The only two times I heard her talk to him about the subject was in an early episode when she whined that she didn't understand "why you can't make my family your family." And then later, when he tells her his own father beat him so routinely that it only gave him homicidal ideas. Other than that, she seems uninterested in his history. (it's not like he doesn't want to talk about it; he spills his guts to an almost complete stranger, Connie, at the Derby party.) Mostly, she thinks he's handsome and is good in bed. That seems to be all she wants from him: eye candy and sex.

I knew women like Betty in the 60s (I was a teenager) and I know these same women now. Many of them came of age in the upper middle class setting we see in Mad Men. Most of the housewives became either alcoholics, chronically depressed or they divorced their philandering husbands. They knew very little about their husbands' work and had almost nothing in common with the men they married. Most of these women were well educated and bored with housekeeping and child rearing. They felt abandoned by their husbands and frustrated by their children's unwillingness to be molded into perfect teenagers and adults. Many of their children rebelled against their parents' politics and ideas -- as we likely will see Sally Draper do, if the series lasts long enough.

Freddy, as someone said before, maybe he got the peaches from a fruitstand before the A&P. And please tell Kiersten's dad that she is truly amazing. I can't think of another child actor, since Opie, who was so spectacular.

GAWWD (ALA NM): PANYTHOSE ARE SO LAME; GARTERS ARE SO MUCH FUN.

MY SAT AFTFINDS AS PER "RESURRECTION" IN CHINATOWN : LONG DARKRED VELVET GLOVES AND A YSL ULTRA-VIO PURPLE SATIN CKTL SHEATH W/BLACK CHANTILLY LACE OVERLAY. TOO FABB

ISHALL NOW PREFER TO BE MADDRESSED AS "FAN-NAN PHD.. .

"OHH,OHH,OHH, ITS MAD-GIC"

TEWWIFIC, WER ARE ABOUT TO (SURF)BOARD

There have been several comments about Gene salting his ice cream. I was born in 1955 and, growing up in the sixties, it was one of my favorite things to crush potato chips up in my chocolate ice cream. I still do it now..... it's the perfect combination of sweet and salty.

Mrs. Olsen: 15 minutes of news and nothing about the Holy Father."

Peggy: "He's still dead".

Of course, 12 years later, in 1975, this would become a punch line to a well known running joke at the expense of Generalissimo Francisco Franco, repeated week after week by Chevy Chase during Weekend Update on the first year of SNL.

Was there a thirty-something female comedy writer at SNL circa 1975 whose career started as a copy writer at an ad agency in the early sixties? Just wondering.

Earlier I said I saw a production photo of Betty carrying a baby in a blue blanket. My apologies, my memory failed me. I looked up the photo again, and the baby is in a white blanket. Betty is wearing a beautiful pink coat and matching dress.

Sorry if I got anyone worked up, but I guess it doesn't matter anyway, because we still don't know what she is having. Regards.

baysid37: Anne Beatts and Rosie Schuster were 2 of SNL's key writers. Not certain of their writing backgrounds.

Well, so we do know the baby leaves the hospital - and Betty looks fabulous by the way - but does anyone else but myself and 60s child have a bad, a real bad feeling about this baby?

Thanks to those who responded to my first ever post above!

While I hear what you are saying about having some sympathy towards Betty...I just can't. And I think I know why. My parents were newlyweds in 63 (though they waited many many many years to do the kid thing.) In any event, they moved into a predominately white neighborhood at that time (they were black)