I think the side of Mad Men and the race issue is interesting but people here - mostly Boomers it seems - seem to want to discuss their childbirth stories, or their parent's childbirth stories, or what their mothers told them they were like as babies, something I am not interested in. I took the black man to be sitting in front of Betty's deceased mother as Medgar Evers. MLK's I have a Dream speech was August 28, 1963 (that information is easily obtainable here on the Web). Many posters ask similar questions and I always wonder why they can't just Google the answer. Takes only seconds. Someone asked something about a Mad Men character on the main thread and again, the answer was easily found here on the Web. Google or Bing. Iw ould rather discuss Mad Men but with over 400 posts on the main thread, it seems everything has already been said. Now people are getting into what women say in the delivery room. That really isn't my thing. I do think you bring up an interesting topic here and of course, the race issue and MLK, and all of that cannot be neatly wrapped up in a few posts. Too bad those men did not live to see Obama as President of the United States. Politics aside, he did make history.

If this show looks far too lily-white, I think that's intentional on Matt Weiner's part.

He wants us to sit up and start asking ourselves... "They were the Good Ol' Days.... but for whom, exactly?"

The race issue will hound us forever. Now more with the Hispanic element than the black element. Race is always an issue. I don't think anyone will ever agree on much when it comes to race.

Oh no, I too like the childhood stories, BUT believe me, I totally get the political, social and cultural importance of every choice Matt Weiner makes for the show and those themes as interesting to me, indeed more so, than the pop culture and childhood memories. This is NOT a show about the good old days of white men in charge, despite some fans wish that it were. It's very interesting to see how the white establishment will react to the changes in the status and power of black people are going through back then, among other upcoming societal changes, and how similar the reaction is today when that change happens at the very top. From virulent and ugly to truly hopeful and embracing of change...just like Don said about the Madison Square Garden campaign.

Discussing racial topics is one of the most difficult conversations to have with friends. If you ban the 'I have a Black friend" and "I am not racist" comments, you may get down to relevant comments, but it is still risky on this un-moderated board. I will tell you what I observed as a fan of Mad Men who is black....

I knew instantly who the man sitting in front of Betty's mother was. I remember how I reacted to his murder at the time (I was about 13), and was dealing with a different type of grief than the Drapers and a different struggle than Peggy's realization that she wouldn't get her life desires.

Underneath the Mad Men storyline, all these other events are happening. I remember distinctly hearing the tv announcer mention the Medgar Evers murder (and I remember hearing about it in real life, as well) right before we saw Sally lay on the floor and watch the bhuddist priest commit suicide (which I remember, as well). It would not surprise me how few people heard it or remembered how close together these events occurred.

My attention was peaked as Pete talked about separate marketing to 'Negroes.' I hated every time Pete said the word...and flinched every time the Admiral people gave reasons why they didn't want them as customers or be known as even wanting them as customers.

"Negroes" is such an offensive word and I flinched every time Pete said it. It sounds so archaic nowadays. As long as I can remember, 'negro' was not accepted by black people because it was not 'created' by them. It was a label put on a people by their captors, and as soon as they were able, they sought their own label. My mother (b. '26) didn't even use the word and was the generation who toyed with calling themselves 'colored.' We had to break her from saying, 'colored people' by repeatedly asking her, "What color are you talking about?" :) She would just look at us and eventually made the switch to "Black people."

Interestingly enough, the attitude of marketing directly to Black people has changed a lot, so we see that Pete was right on the cutting edge of where advertising was going (again). The thing that has not changed is what society chooses to market in our magazines or cable stations: malt liquor, cigarettes, big shiny cars, tennis shoes, etc. We see that Pete's attitude (toward making the goal the almighty dollar) has actually won the debate.

Carla has not left the Draper employ, but following a period of helping them non-stop through Grandpa Gene's funeral (pre and post), she has probably been granted time to spend with her own family. As domestics, my mother (and her friends) went through lots of urgent situations with their employers. I don't feel Betty will be able to manage without her, though.

The Drapers and Sterling Cooper will face the civil rights movement when it impacts their personal lives. Until then, Hollis is the source for marketing information, Carla is an urgently needed employee, and Medgar Evers remains a murder victim and catalyst for the not-too-distant civil rights marches and demonstrations. There's a reason Hollis had other things on his mind. In our community and churches, there was a lot more going on than television or making sure we bought the Admiral brand.

Hi Littlehouse!
Thanks for the date. You're right, I could just Google it, but, I enjoy learning things from my fellow Maddict posters.

I guess I brought up the race issues because we have just about discussed everything else from last night's episode. I wondered if it wasn't posted because the topic could make some people feel uncomfortable. But, unfortunately, this period IS part of our history in this Country.

60sChild: I don't know that people feel uncomfortable, it seems that over on the main thread many like to share their life histories. I wonder how many can expertly discuss this issue - race - because it is such a complex one. And the poster above mentioned that discussing it on an non-moderated board probably was not a good idea to which I agree. As a Realtor I have to be careful in what I say about the subject. Today, we have more racial issues than ever before, I think, and the Hispanic population is the minority (soon to be majority) that the blacks were in the fifties and sixties. In the not too distant future the Hispanic population will overtake the others here in America.

Hi greytone!

Thank you so much for your perspective, and your post! This is what I mean when I say I enjoy learning and sharing information from most Maddicts on this Forum.
I am white, and have shared so many of my experiences during the time period of the early 60s. While I was raised to believe all people are equal, I can't ever truely understand your perspective. I would be insulting you to say I do.

I found myself cringing each time Pete and the men from Admiral TV said negroes or colored people also. It seems so foreign to me in today's world.

I remember your post name and great avitar from last year. Nice to see you again!

Hi Littlehouse!

You and greytone are right. The LAST thing I want to do is stir up problems on this site. But, we can't ignore the racial discussion as it relates to the MM time period. Nor can we ignore the gender or religious biases.
Thank you for your perspective!

60schild: I did not mean that you were stirring up trouble. No, no. In fact, I think a racial discussion (kept in perspective) is interesting. Much more so than the endless maternity ward stories that seemed to be staring over on the main thread. That kind of thing is boring beyond belief at least to me. Ditto for some of the other topics I found on the main thread last week. However, racial issues are like politics, religion, abortion and all those. They usually end up with everyone at each others throats. I have to be careful with what I say too. I deal with many people of all races in my business, so it's a touchy subject. But did not think you were trying to stir things up.

Thank you for your insights, greytone.

I wasn't sure what to think about Pete in this episode, but I appreciated the storyline. I was really irritated by what he did to Hollis in the elevator. He tried to put him in a corner to do some market research, had the nerve to tell him what the American dream is, and then pouted when Hollis won’t cooperate and told him more important things are going on. He doesn't want to be considered a "bigot", but he's undeniable racist. I can say he's a "product of his time" and try to excuse his awful behavior, but I don't think that's right either. However, he did see that African Americans were important consumers that were being ignored and that if a company like Admiral would focus on that market they would benefit. He had a good strategy for the TV company, and it’s too bad that they didn’t see his vision - how terrible that they cared more about being a "white" company than the health of that company. Pete did make a risky move when he gave his suggestions to Admiral, and I give him props for the guts that took (even if it was about making more money, not furthering social progress).

I am surprised given the discussion last week about Roger in “blackface” that there was no comment made about what Francine said to Betty. When Betty was home from the hospital ,seated on the couch. Francine said “ I can’t believe you didn’t force Carla to stay.” FORCE? I know it’s not so much like that now. But in the 80’s I was a cleaning lady who considered my self self-employed and independent. When I told one of the women I cleaned weekly for that I was taking a week off she told me I couldn’t. “No, sorry, yes I am.” and I did. Force Carla to stay? I don’t think you could FORCE Carla to do anything! She is respectful because she is a nice person but she is her own person!

I had a few questions about terminology. Pete using the word Negro really struck me...but what I was wondering, and perhaps you all could help me with this, is how negative a term would it have really been considered?

Grey...it sounds like you were saying that it was never an acceptable term. But I remember instances of it from the 1920s (think of essays like Hurstons "When the Negro Was in Vogue" although the usage of the term may well have been intended to be ironic), or the 1940s (founding of the United Negro College Fun), or even Dr. King's 'I Have a Dream' speech in 63.

So I guess my question is...was it a neutral term that turned into a negative one as the years passed? Was it always a term with negative connotations that was simply used for lack of anything better, or because it was the term the Anglo world insisted upon? Would Pete using it instead of 'Colored' or another term have been considered 'sensitive' or 'derogatory'?

Sorry, Grey, it sounded like you and a couple other people really don't appreciate the term and I'm not trying to stir things up by asking questions, I'm just honestly curious. I was born well past that time period and don't know.

Shifting gears, for a moment I thought they were going to put Pete in charge of accounts targeted towards the black community. I still suspect they are setting things up for that. Am I off track here?

@greytone: Thanks for your perspective. It's very enlightening. Keep it up.

Hi rasputin1963!
You're right. Who remembers the 50s and early 60s as "the good old days?". I'm sure the black people in this Coutry didn't.

I watched a documentary about the segregation laws in America, especially in the South.
Even after the Federal Civil Right Laws were passed, the segregation, racism and violence continued.
One of the black guests on the show said that as bad as segregation was, he felt it was the biggest reason that blacks in this country were able to hold together tighter and start fighting back. What an interesting thought! So something good maybe came out of something so bad.

I credit the pioneers of The Civil Rights protests with inspiring women to protest, and students to protest the Vietnam War. I think the subsequent protest movements were modeled after The Civil Rights movement. Unfortunately, some of the VW protests eventually turned violent. But, the roots of peaceful demonstration came from the Civil Rights demonstrtions of black people in this Country.

I thought Pete observations and discussions among the most interesting in the episode. Pete, in his way, stepped out of his fog when he got woken up from both sides on the issue. On one side, there's Hollis, who gave Pete that amazing look about having the American dream. You could almost hear him thinking, "Right now, my American dream is to do away with Jim Crow laws. Do that and then we'll talk about dreaming of a house, car and color television!"

On the other side, you've got the Admiral tv men who [i]know[/i] that their television sales to whites are "flat," and that they're selling more tv's to "negros," but would rather believe that advertising to whites will increase sales to both then even contemplate advertising to blacks and whites equally. On both sides, Pete's desire to just do his job gets him locked out.

Pete becomes our middle man, showing to us the irrational bigotry of one side, and the moral outrage of the other side, without hitting us over the head with this history lesson.

I'd like to add: MadMen is a very white show because it's about the ruling class in the early 1960's. Were we watching about Egyptian Kings at a certain time, that show would feature all blacks, as for a time Nubia ruled Egypt. But in spite of that, the racial angle, like the sexist angle, is always there. Because the ruling class always has to face those who they are robbing so that they can "have it all."

In this particular episode, it is brought home that perhaps the most important question MadMen asks, over and over again, is what do we want and why do we want it? That includes something as seemingly important and "ethical" as equality. Peggy wants women's equality so she can have equal pay. Pete wants it for blacks so that there are more markets to exploit. But in the background there is always the ghost of Evans, like Hollis in the elevator and Carla in the house. Those who want it because it's an inalienable right. Because it's [i]wrong[/i] not to have it.

And there is our hero, Don Draper, who climbed out of poverty, who understands unfairness at a gut level, who stole another man's identity to "pass" and is now part of the ruling class. Giving or withholding equality is now in his hands. What does he want, and why does he want it?

I was afraid to say anything as I didn't want to lay any seeds for political bickering. I also thought it might be better for more knowledgeable folks to weigh in first, especially African-American maddicts, such as Greytone. That said, I breathed a sigh of relief last night and thought, "Good. They're finally addressing racism and feminism head-on."

bipolarbear...
Negro was a term created by slave traders and was continually used by the speakers of the language. The slaves were not allowed to speak in their native tongue or practice their religion or culture once brought to their new 'home.'

I suppose it continued to be used when referring to us (as a group) until we solved so many of the other problems facing our assimilation into American society.
As you know..... "When you know better, you do better."--Maya Angelou
At some point black people realized the power in self-determination that has been experienced by all groups struggling for their identity (blacks, hispanics, gays, lesbians, asians, jews, etc.)

So, yes....Black people did refer to themselves as Negroes (in both formal and slang forms). This same self-determination is what black youth are doing as they try to de-sensitize society's use of the n-word in its vulgar form. Including it in their rap songs and everyday street vernacular is still not accepted and will never be accepted by those born in my generation. I believe not retelling the horrors of slavery to the generation we raised kept them from really understanding the pain associated with it---in all its forms--including the language used to define it.

(Just a word from one anonymous poster to another....never, never think the n-word is okay to use.) You'll be fine if you call people whatever they wish to be called and don't become frustrated at how many times it has been changed over your lifetime. Many nationalities have gone through this self-defining moment...including our own Native Americans, right?....

Sorry, bipolarbear....
I guess my last post was actually a response to Llama's questions...

Although, as you know, you are as welcome to read and comment as anyone else...:-)

I'm going to go off topic here for a moment to thank Grey and explain why I was prying:

Thanks, Grey. That makes good sense. And don't worry, I'd never be stupid enough to used the n-word; it was always made extremely clear to us growing up that our parents and neighbors would skin us alive if we even thought it. But, ironically, I think part of that comes from being raised in the South, and having the strong awareness of history and race that comes with that (especially if you have parents determined not to raise a bigot). I think you're right and that awareness of history does have alot to do with ones willingness to use that word. I was shocked to go to University and hear people toss it around. But most of the people I heard use it seemed to have little awareness of history, or a very selective one...

I was just curious because what we call ourselves as groups is so very complicated. It's funny you mention Native Americans, because that's part of what got me wondering about things. As a student I received a tongue lashing from teachers from using the term Indian. Then when I went to use Native American the other day, I was (gently) reproached by Apache/Lakota auntie; and told that Native American was a term invented by white men and I should not use it. A she put it, "Some Indians like the term Native American. But at the end of the day, the people insisting on useing it are white. Nobody asked us. Use Indian or Indigenous." So, to honor her wishes Im shortly going to be turning in a paper using those terms. I expect to get docked points unless I put a disclaimer on top. Race is so often such a deeply confusing issue, and I appreciate it when anyone takes the time to help clarify things for me.

---
By the way, I've recently been reading a book on the 1906 Atlanta race riots ('Rage in the Gate City by Burns) and I'd recommend it to anyone who's inspired to do some Civil Rights reading by recent episodes. It explains how the episode helped set the stage for many later racial issues, including those taking place in the Mad Men era. Very informative.

@thirteen: All I can say to that is WOW! You nailed it!

@greytone: OK, I've got my courage up, so I have to ask. What is currently preferred? Black? African American?

signed: confused

.....Great posts (of course).

This isn't much of a contribution, but I've been anxiously anticipating Hollis' book, and have really been hoping he would make the jump to a successful career as an author.

It would be cruel to us (and a waste of his intelligence) if they don't address this again.

It's interesting to compare Don's asking the black waiter in the S1E1 about why he smokes the cigarettes he does. Here Pete is asking Hollis why he purchased an RCA. Don is smooth, their only interruption by the head waiter. Pete, being Pete, does it clumsily. He's being earnest, Hollis knows that but plays it dumb. "I don't remember." Here, Pete knows better but as usual, Pete doesn't communicate his thoughts well.

Neither man, the waiter or Hollis, had a compelling reason for the why he purchased that brand rather than another. Which is why advertising could make a difference if both (cigarettes and TVs) are seen as commodities. To stand out from the others.

It was good that Pete ended the conversation on a real level, saying "You can't make me believe you don't watch sports on TV." Hollis smiles and snorts in acknowledgement of the fact.

BTW, when I was growing up in the same time frame, there were only polite words - "colored" and "negro," negro being more common. The n-word was never used by my parents, at least in my hearing. I take it back. My mother once equated it with the phrase, "white trash."

This is where the conversation becomes difficult. I have taken time to think about my response to you, Llama and also hope to bring to light a different perspective on Ritt1's comments.

Both "The Fog" and Season 1's "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes," show how uneasy Hollis and the waiter from the opening scene, Sam (asked about his Old Gold cigarettes) were with being questioned on their purchasing motivations. There is an underlying distrust both men have about being questioned by strangers on their reasons for product purchases. Believe me, Ritt1, both Hollis and Sam knew why they purchased the products, but saw no reason to tell their questioners, men who had previously taken no interest in them (or didn't know them at all).

You watched Hollis dance around giving an answer to Pete, and we noticed Pete becoming more agitated and direct (stopping the elevator at one point) to get an answer. Sam had his motives for even speaking to Don questioned by another waiter.

In the Black community, giving personal or any vital information, even if it is only your thought process, is not shared freely with anyone outside your 'family' (immediate or extended). Try to understand, being trusting and compliant to the wishes and inquiries of anyone (including the general public) rings an internal alert of possible danger to both these black men. Such trust had already been mishandled in medical tests (see Tuskegee Experiment) and the social experiments and studies whose goal was to determine how 'different' black people were. Giving the 'wrong' information could cost you your job, endanger your health, or affect your family. Both Hollis and Sam hesitated because of those concerns, not because they didn't know what their reasons were. It was really, "Why are you asking me?"

Now, after all I have carefully written in my posts on this thread and topic, I am surprised to have Llama ask the question in her most recent post. This is where I get like Hollis and begin to wonder if anything I wrote has been read and understood or if subsequent or repeated questions are a set up for flamers.

Llama, this I respond to you: My concern is that we all get away from defining the correct 'label' to put on people. Watching Mad Men and reading the forum this season has made me realize how little I know about the secret language society uses to identify separate ethnic groups. I have concluded that if you're a minority, you spend little time marginalizing or categorizing other people and much more time trying to 'fit in' and show your own assimilation.

So, I encourage everyone focus on learning the person's name and use it. More important than trying to determine anyone's ethnicity is looking at how they are like you (or different from you) and relating your own experience to theirs.

I have reviewed, previewed and re-read this post several times to avoid coming off wrong. I want everyone posting here to know that is not my intent. The fact that some Maddicts have already said, "Ah, I understand," is a reward in itself.

Thank you for reading....

@Greytone, Hello...haven't seen you much this time around and I miss reading your posts. It's almost impossible to read all the posts on the main thread, or even reply to one.

I just wanted to say I feel you are speaking from your heart. Thank you for your willingness to share your knowledge and comments. Take care!

Thanx, rozsie...
I usually lay low and prefer to read during the season. You only saw me a lot in the off-season because I had volunteered to host the Mad Men Movie threads. (I learned soo much from that exercise and thank everyone who supported my efforts.)

A forum is a place where you can be easily misunderstood, so I am very careful what I post on the internet and hope I am coming across clearly and sincerely. I always remember that what you post on the internet is available FOREVER. Because of that reason, I post only what I know will not embarrass my family (including my grandchildren) when they dump my harddrive after my death. lol

I appreciate you for saying you recognize my attempts.