Just to explain why I asked the last question.... I’m curious, because many people complained about Don cheating with the stewardess in the premiere, but some folks were also complaining that Don had lost his "mojo" when he was faithful to Betty at the beginning of last season.

Most of these men are sleazy. The worst one is Duck. He pretends to be such a gentleman and then he took his misery out on his poor dog last season and kicked his poor dog out on a Manhattan street. What a jerk!

I've never really warmed to Don. He's a cold guy, not much of a sense of humour, lousy husband, frequently absent father. He's been loyal to Peggy and Freddie Rumsen, but certainly not to Betty or his children. And I hate the way he attacked Betty when he felt she was flirting with Roger, or for wearing the yellow bikini. It makes him an emotionally abusive husband. Abusive in that he is not respectful to her. Isn't that what he said to her when he came back from LA and met her at the stables? That he hadn't shown her the respect she deserves.

I know it's weird to feel more sympathy for Pete than Don, but I feel that Matt Weiner shows Pete as capable of changing into something better, and I really have no expectations that Don will ever change. That doesn't mean he won't change, all the characters are on a journey of some sort, and Weiner and Co wouldn't be the great writers they are if their characters didn't develop, but I just don't see Don learning from his mistakes as of yet. And if he doesn't learn from his mistakes, he'll repeat them. He had his chance at the beginning of this season and apparently he wants to keep going as he started out.

I think Pete really loved Peggy, and loves Trudie off and on, but Don seems to only love himself.

.....NeverNot.....Not completely sure about the sense of humor part.

It's dry, but it's there, on the rare occasion......

Ex. Roy Hazelitt: "How do you sleep at night?"

Don: "On a bed of money."

Don is a protagonist, not a hero. Sometimes he does nice, even admirable things ("Stay loyal to small, long-time customers!"), sometimes he does awful things. Sometimes he is on the side of morality, chivalry, and right; sometimes on the side of immorality, vice, and wrong. He cheats on his wife with a stewardess, but he doesn't rat out Sal.

My view of Don, ultimately, is that his inability to stay faithful doesn't make him a bad-guy, just someone who can't reconcile what he is with what who and what he wants to be. He thinks he wants a picture-perfect, American dream family and home and job, with himself cast in the role of leading man. But as we see over and over again, Don was really meant to be a bohemian. He fits in better with swingers, jet-setters, hipsters, poets.

But he hates poverty, instability, and so many other things he saw in his childhood, things that go along with such a life-style. So he always drifts right back home--like he says, he'll always come home--hoping that this time he can make his dream work like it should; as advertised.

Unfortunately for him, it never will work as advertised, and neither will his "Don Draper" persona. The reason it will never work is because the two halves of himself, of his life, that he keeps trying to put together into a whole just don't fit. For example, his job pays him to create lies, and the better a liar he is, the more successful he is. Yet that very successful ability to lie and create stories makes him a lousy husband, as he can't ever be totally honest with his wife.

However, keep in mind that the world is changing around him, radically in certain instances. And he is getting older. Time does force all things to change, sometimes for the better.

NeverNotTasty, I completely agree with you about Don's persona. I think Pete Campbell is a much more interesting character to watch, especially when he's having a hissy fit about something or other. Even his despicable traits are strangely intriguing, such as when he tried to blackmail Don by threatening to reveal his secret identity.

.....babbott.....That is a very beautiful snapshot. Which one are you?

Reminds me of so many of our ancient family shots......who knew we would treasure them so much now.....

I used to like Don (probably because Jon Hamm is just so gorgeous), but I'm getting tired of his cheating ways. I realize he doesn't like himself at all. He knows he's a cheat and a liar. He isn't even Don Draper, he's Dick Whitman, and he's lied to his own wife about his (and her) true identity.

I've been re-watching seasons 1 and 2. Don is only charming with women when he wants sex. He always tells them he's married (that's one point in his favor). However, with Betty he can be very sweet and caring a lot of the time. He certainly provides for her every need - she lives in luxury. He loves his kids, although I'm very disturbed by the time he never came home with Sally's birthday cake. How could he do that to his own daughter? That really turned me off to him. He certainly was sweet and caring to Betty in the season 3 premiere episode, making warm milk, rubbing her tummy, telling her soothing stories so she could sleep. But then he goes out and almost (I don't think anything happened after the false fire alarm) cheats on Betty again.

I think Don just uses women for sex. He doesn't think it's that bad; it doesn't mean anything to him except sex. He still loves Betty and wants to stay married to her. Betty is what he wants in his life. However, he doesn't feel he deserves her. I don't think he would be any happier with any of his mistresses - sooner or later, he'd leave them and move on to another sexual escapade. I'm actually getting tired of his cheating. I really think Betty deserves better. I do want him to straighten out. But I will not stop watching MM even if he continues to cheat. I'm in it for the long haul.

Thirteen - Thank you for your analysis. This is what I love about Mad Men - it's like a great piece of literature with layers of meaning that you can study. Almost feel like I'm back in a college lit class when I read people's take on the show. My next question should probably be something like, "What male protagonist from classic literature is most similar to Donald Draper?" ;)

Don is the classic anti-hero, the character people want to hate, but can't. Just like Tony Soprano. He did horrible things, but when I was watching that show, I never wanted to see him get caught by the Feds or anyone else for that matter. Good writing taps into human emotions of rooting for someone who you shouldn't admire or root for.

I read the interview in Vanity Fair this month with the pics of J. Hamm and J. Jones (Hamm was sooooo HOT in that pool picture! Where did they find this man? Whew!) Anyway...there was a part in that article where they talked w/Matthew Weiner, and he said at first they didn't want to cast a guy as good looking as Jon Hamm, but then they realized it was best to cast him because everyone would expect a guy that good looking to be Don Draper, or something like that. I'll have to go back and read the article again, but it was really good and eye-opening.

Hey, Hanna! Yes, the show is like literature, which is why I adore it. And the icing on the cake are the fans it attracts who really want to discuss things not just talk about how "hawt" Mr. Hamm is --though, of course, that does get discussed as well ;-)

Both the show and the people here leave me wowed and thinking, and keep me on my toes. What other show has discussion on history, ethics, gender roles, psychology, child-rearing, music, poetry, art, sociology, economics....it really is like being back in college.

You asked: "What male protagonist from classic literature is most similar to Donald Draper?"

Actually, that question is pretty easy to answer. In fact, I think Weiner even mentioned this in some interview or other: Don Draper is Gatsby from The Great Gatsby. Yes?

He he. Thirteen, you got me. Draper does make a good Gatsby. Though, in "The Jet Set" from last season Don was kind of like Odysseus. He even had to deal with a siren.

Great comments Thirteen!

I just accept all the characters for what they are and try not to judge them. There would be no story here if the people in it were made of cardboard. But since Hanna asked what we felt about Don, I just had to say I don't feel terribly protective of him. I actually hope he has to cope with some failure now and then. He once told Pete that the younger man had it too easy all his life, but Don has a pretty easy ride lately. This may be controversial, but I think Don needs taking down a peg or two. Also, Weiner has said in interviews that Don and Roger are "yesterday's men." I look forward to the new ideas taking over.

I was just thinking... Other than infidelity (which is a huge failing, call it his tragic flaw) and a Madonna/whore complex what are his bad character traits? Loyalty to customers, ability to keep a secret, supporting his co-workers and managers, the ability to think outside the box, keeping his wife/children in a lifestyle he feels appropriate...

Not bringing back Sally's birthday cake and thereby embarrassing Betty, I saw as passive aggression. He put together the playhouse that morning, drank several beers and was kicking back when Helen Glenn, the divorcee, stood next to him and they talked. One of the neighbor women pointed it out to Betty and she saw this as a danger, so she sent Don out to get the cake. He got it but then did the passive aggressive thing and didn't bring it home until it was much, much too late. He also brought along Polly, so Sally immediately forgot any unhappiness. But not Betty. Which was the point. She pushed, he pushed back harder.

Tangles16:
I think Don just uses women for sex.

Uh-uh. Most women he uses just for business or is disinterested - Peggy, Joan, Alice Cooper, Mona, Francine, Helen, the woman in the elevator last season who had to listen to the two guys talk about sex with one of the secretaries... Last season and so far this season, all the cheating was initiated by the woman, not Don. Okay, he didn't struggle much. But they started it! And that doesn't even count Anna Draper, his "ex-", who as far as we know, never had sex with him.

Wonderful discussion, folks. Don is not named “Don” for nothing. I love/hate him. He’s so wonderfully complex, as are all the characters, of course.

In answer to Hanna's question, what character from literature is Don most similar to, of course Gatsby is one, but I have to say Peer Gynt, too. That’s a character in a Norwegian fairytale that the Ibsen play "Peer Gynt" is based on. I kind of stumbled onto the fairytale when I was writing a thread I posted last week (the music "In the Hall of the Mountain King" comes from that play; of course that’s also the title of the episode). The thread is now lost in the shuffle. I posted a synopsis of the fairytale in the comments section on that thread, and why I think Don may be based on him; it’s too long to post again. Ritt1 mentioned Anna: I'm really not trying to blow my own horn, but I would love it if you would go to the “Is Anna a Figment of Don’s Imagaination?” and give my your opinions. Or not! Thanks.

I think Don has a very low self worth, which is why he continually tries to destroy himself. On one hand, he is very good and successful at what he does professionally, but he knows that personally he's really just Dick Whitman. And I don't believe he likes Dick one bit. He lives in fear of his family finding out, yet continually puts himself in situations that light the fuse.

At best, I could say that Don is complicated, conflicted and emotionally battered. And that's why I like his character so much.

First of all, yes - Don will always be a cheater. Aside from that, he is an admirable guy ("aside from that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?")

I think that in a sense, it isn't Don who is having the affairs, it's Dick Whitman. Remember, Don is a constructed persona, one that he considered abandoning at one time (remember his beatnik girlfriend in the 1st season? he wanted to go away with her and begin a new life). Don is the guy in front of us, in the office, in his home. He wants to be accepted for what he appears to be.

Dick, who has the affairs, is just like his father. A whoring jerk. A "dick" that should have been boiled in oil.

The Don/Dick package, is simply an interesting character. The analogy to Tony Soprano was apt.

Fred3 said: "Aside from that, he is an admirable guy ("aside from that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?")"

LOL! Well, yes and no. He really isn't Tony Soprano, is he? Tony cheated, too, but Tony also murdered people with his own hands, ran illegal operations, etc. etc. etc.

Much as we may hate Don's lying and cheating, the only truly illegal thing he's done is take on another man's identity. We haven't seen him rob, kill, steal, or even engage in white collar crime.

I thing it's going just a bit too far to equate an adulterer with a psychopath who routinely kills or has people killed, prostitutes women, and finances himself and his family with stolen goods. Cheating one one's wife, however wonderful, beautiful, etc. she is, just is not the same as killing someone's husband, son, daughter, wife.

Ritt1 wrote: a Madonna/whore complex

Interesting point, Ritt. I think this is why Don will never stop being a cheater, and will never find exactly the woman he's looking for. Ultimately, the woman he can really love and be an equal with has to be the "Prostitute/Mother" that gave him away. We note from the very first that his mistresses are confident women, bold in their sexuality, very intelligent and often independent artists or business women. Anna, the woman Don worships, is also a kind of mother figure to him. Thus, the woman that "Dick" can really love and view as an equal has to be the independent, intelligent. artistic, whore-with-the-heart-of-gold.

This woman wouldn't care if he was unfaithful. BUT such a woman, on her side, isn't going to stay faithful either. She is not a "wife." And while "Dick" is okay with that, "Don" is not.

Betty is exactly the "Madonna" that Don Draper is after. The virginal WASP princess from the East Coast. A Grace Kelly type that is the perfect hostess, the perfect spouse for a successful ad man in a suit. She is athletic rather than intellectual, and reliant on him to provide for her, rather than independent (or so he assumes). She is also his dream of a perfect mother for his children (although he might be realizing she's not so perfect as he thought). Remember how he thought that the biggest compliment he could give her was that she was a wonderful mother.

I think comments about the literary aspect of Don--from Don Juan, to Ulysses to Peer Gynt are spot on. There is a Fairy Tale quality to Don's story, including his starting out a poor boy who ends up marry the princess. But the problem will always remain, Don Draper is a fiction, a dream, a fairy tale. Under that lie is a real man who wants a real woman, and Betty can never satisfy him any more than those other women can erase Don's need to live in a fantasy with a castle and a princess.

We need to put infidelity in context of the early 1960's to fully explore that. It was not uncommon especially among upper middle class people for the husband to have his affairs and the wife tolerated it for the sake of the children, for the sake of appearing like the perfect family, for the sake of her own financial security. Did you see how the neighborhood women picked Glenn's mother (can't remember the character's name) apart for being divorced? There was quite a stigma on men and women back then to be divorced and divorcees with children had to deal with both the social stigma and the much lower standard of living. Betty threw Don out, but when she found out she was pregnant and couldn't/wouldn't get an abortion (illegal at the time), she told him to come back.

Don is an incredibly handsome, charming and wealthy man whose narcissism gives him a strong sense of entitlement. That being said, I believe he does love Betty and no doubt in my mind he adores his children. He is a much better father than Betty is a mother.

Betty is as self-centered as Don is, and even before she had anonymous sex in that bar, she was never an innocent party. I can't see Betty as the victim here, for although Don may have cheated more often and more frequently, her own very deep issues contribute to their unhappy marriage. The cruelty she shows to Bobby and what she did when she essentially set up Sara Beth to have sex with the young man at the stables, wow! There is an inherent kindness to Don that is absent in Betty. I believe Don is capable of love and Betty is not.

But this is not to bash Betty's character! I love her because she embodies the "perfect housewife" so well and I defiitely feel sorry for her because society has trapped her so well. January Jones is absolutely awesome in portraying this very complex character.

I think Don cheats because he can.

It was the prerequisite in those days to do the
"mess around."
Salvadore even does it
with "Elevator hops"
"airplane"

Sexy-tary

Imamarilyn: I agree with your assessment of Betty. I think Don married her on the pretext of love and that she would make a perfect wife and mother. Betty, however, always wanted more, but is constrained by society. I think she married Don for status and what she "thought" was love.

I don't think Don is a narcissist. I tend to go more with Fred here that Dick is actually the one out looking for sex/love and Don is the upstanding moral guy who gets sidetracked by Dick, who is looking for validation, love and comfort. The manufactured Don doesn't need that. Dick does.

Thirteen said - "Betty is exactly the "Madonna" that Don Draper is after. ... She is also his dream of a perfect mother for his children (although he might be realizing she's not so perfect as he thought). Remember how he thought that the biggest compliment he could give her was that she was a wonderful mother."

Everything Don has done to build his little empire (with his job, his perfect suburban house, his perfect wife, and his perfect 2.5 kids) is in an effort to make up for his "humble" beginnings. I think it really does affect him that his mother was a prostitute and he was an illegitimate child. He believes that if he can create the picture-perfect life for himself, then he won't be poor little Dick Whitman anymore. Betty is an important part of that façade - she is the "perfect" woman and the Madona-like remedy for his whorish origins. She gave birth to his kids, keeps his home, and is the perfect trophy on his arm. Ultimately, I think he loves the IDEA of Betty more than Betty herself. Perhaps that makes it easier for him to cheat on her. However, if she were to leave him, his façade would fall apart, and he couldn't stand it. It's a hard thing for him to balance.

hanna, it seems to me that Don really does care a lot for Betty (maybe even love her, not just the idea of Betty). He was so sweet and caring to her in the season 3 premiere. And in re-watching seasons 1 and 2, I've seen many instances in which his "love" for Betty came through.

With his mistresses, it's all about sex. Yeah, after sex, maybe they talk a little, but ultimately it is about sex. With Betty, he also has what certainly seems like a good sex life, but also does little things on a day to day basis that show he really cares for her. Sure, they have their disagreements as do all married couples. Remember, they are married with children which is totally different from seeing a woman once a week for sex. Marriage has a lot more baggage.

The problem is that Don has too much baggage from his past and will never truly be happy until it is resolved. Betty's main problem as I see it (from the visits to the psychiatrist in season 1) is that she knows deep down inside that Don has been unfaithful to her and more than once. A wife always knows that. And of course, any wife would be depressed in Betty's situation. Until Don learns to accept his past, he won't be happy with any woman. Because in order to love someone else, you have to love yourself first.

Leopards don't change their spots.

tangles - I agree that he loves her. I enjoy the scenes where they are sweet with each other the best. But there's something missing there. Whether it's the context of the '60s when wives were expected to put up with their husbands' affairs or a missing personal connection between Don and Betty. Like I said, he loves the idea of Betty. It's almost like he loves her up on a pedestal, this beautiful Madonna/mother figure, without either of them really sharing who they are with the other person. Don told his mistress Rachel about his background and illegitimate birth back in season one, but Betty still has no clue! Is it because he doesn't want to contaminate her with his dirty past? Or is it because he wants to stay a little detached from her? It's probably mixed in there with the reason why he continues to have affairs, maybe this self hatred, like you alluded to.

I think Don knows that Betty is not very accepting of "lower class" and feels that he can't tell her about his for several reasons -
1. Then it acknowledges they have been living a lie this whole time.
2. Betty would never have married a son of a prostitute.
3. He knows Betty could never forget it and would probably use it to make him feel worse about himself.

This show is all about the Secrets. The brilliance of Mad Men is that every major character is flawed (even the children...stealing money from Grandpa). We get to see their public interaction with knowledge of their secret life. At some point or another, it seems that every single character is on the brink of personal destruction due to their secrets. Cudos to the writers clever plot twists and secret reveals.

The biggest secret is Don's identity. Don will always be a cheater because he's not really Don Draper. I don't doubt that he loves Betty and she loves him. He believed she was the one that could give him the perfect/happy family he's secretly desired since childhood.

When Betty finds out about the contract, Don is angry and tells her he's been a good provider. He doesn't care that withholding this information and refusing to discuss it with her is a defining moment in their relationship. It confirms that she can't trust him. She wants to believe in him but keeps getting burned.

Don is conflicted. He has to question whether Dick Whitman would have been as successful as Don and married to Betty. Under those circumstances, he will find it difficult to share or confide in her. There is always something missing in his relationships. He's essentially a prostitute (like his mother). Sex with a lack of intimacy.

In Season 1 and 2, he had no real guilt about cheating on his wife because it's acceptable in his social network. I don't think he sleeps with woman just because he wants sex. He may think that's the case but he's seeking intimacy. He's looking for something. It's not until Betty throws him out that he is concerned with the consequences. Does he love his wife and children? Yes. If he stops sleeping with other woman will his dream family work? No. Betty withdraws from him after Rome. Don and Betty are both aware their relationship is breaking down again.

Is it possible that Don will stop cheating on his wife? Maybe. if so, he'll have to put everything on the line. Don will need to admit who he is to Betty and she'll have to accept him. Until he can confide in his wife and develop trust and intimacy...I think he'll keep on cheating.

When Don is finally pushed to sign the contract. His boss reminds him that he is aware of his real identity but also doesn't care. So when is Don going to stop cheating? Maybe when Dick realizes that he is Don Draper. Smart, successful and talented with a beautiful family.

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