Granted, "The Mountain King" was so loaded with happenings that this little gem could easily be over-looked, but...

I thought it was very clever writing as a way to show how Roger and Alice are on each other's wave-length to the extent that they can banter right in front of Burt, and he doesn't have a clue as to what they're saying.

The poem was Roger's way of letting Alice know (before the actual vote) that Burt had been "won over" and was going to vote with Alice and him for the merger. (How hard they both had been lobbying Burt)!

Alice instantly caught the meaning of the rhyme, as her response to Roger was simply: "Very good."

...And the great shot of Burt...as he sat alone in the meeting room after the others had left...looking dazed and more than a little sad. Fade to black....

I'M obviously fascinated by this topic even if no one else is (lol)...so here comes another (ALERT)
long post:

Is Burt the "Christopher Robin" of SC? ( To answer that we'd have to know the meaning of the poem and the "nature" of Christopher Robin).

Do any other MM characters talk "in code" to each other? (eg., I think Roger and Don do, although I can't think of any specific examples at the moment).

IMHO, it's central to Roger's personality to talk in "code." It's a win-win game for him : his meaning gets to those who share his "coolness" quotient; and for those who don't, ...as to them he gets to feel superior. (They aren't in the club).

Season Three holds the promise of seeing who else gains access to the club.

I also would expect to see the effect of Roger's growing impatience with Don's "take it or leave it" attitude toward the club. And I hope to see continuing influence of any Christopher Robin-type.

(Assuming that "Christopher Robin" thinks and operates on a sphere totally outside of the club's realm).

Whether he's Christopher Robin or not, Burt's character is somewhat "parallel universe" (like Anna).

It would be interesting to know if he was always this way (in nature), or whether age, wisdom (and a bit of dementia) have shaped his (now) rather dreamy, ethereal demeanor.

I read somewhere that every office is filled with a "Winnie the Pooh" crew. Each character is needed to provide a balanced office. Too many of one character can throw off an office and cause chaos. Let's see where SC's employees fall:

Burt Cooper - Christopher Robin (taking care of everyone in the office, especially Piglet)
Don Draper - Winnie the Pooh (only cares about getting the honey/money - focused on nothing/no one else)
Pete Campbell - Piglet (nervous, insecure and can't do anything without Winnie or Christoper's help)
Joan Holloway - Kanga (taking care of all the men and little ones in the office)
Peggy Olson - Roo (the youngest and most innocent, being taken care of by Kanga)
Harry Crane/Paul Kinsey - Eyore (always whining and pointing out the bad in everything)
Ken Cosgrove - Tigger (bounces around being verbal - avoiding doing his job, being a writer, setting up girls for clients, etc)
Roger Sterling - Rabbit (pops in once in awhile but not really interested in being part of the group - prefers to do his own thing)
Sal Romano - The Wise Ol' Owl (sits back and watches - adds wisdom every once in awhile but prefers being in a branch above the chaos)

.....jackie.....You always have insightful posts.

Those are some interesting little pearls you found there, deserving of real analysis. Nothing is accidental with this thing.

You are right - I distinctly remember the exchange and because so much else was happening, it came and went without much notice.

Always glad when someone peels back another layer.....they are definitely there.

I like to think of it as an Easter egg hunt for adults.

(And I use that term loosely!!)

Very interesting about the office balance and Winnie the Pooh crew D&S. That will be my next read.

There are a lot of things I wish I'd commented on in a more timely manner, DM; but, since there was so much going on in many of the episodes...and since I didn't always read all six or seven hundred posts after each one, I try to curb my impulse to posit my theories on long-ago episodes. (I still think of scenes from Season I, and wonder why I saw no posts on things I NOW think deserved attention. But maybe I just missed those posts and would be beating a dead horse)! An "Easter egg hunt for adults" is appropos.

D&S...and I wanted to add that your "match-ups" based on the "Pooh characters" are dead-on.

I particularly commend you for Pete (you nailed him), Joan, Harpau (that's Harry/Paul), Ken, Roger and Sal. 'Nuf said.

This is a fascinating topic, jackie!

Wonderful list, there, Drink...spot-on, as jackie says....perfect "matches"....

.....Drink&Smoke (great name - why didn't I think of that!) is very talented that way, like many on here.

Two things to remember when posting on this Forum, jackie. One, we are all crazy mad for this show, so there is no detail too small for us to discuss. Two, we love hearing each other's points of view, and those of new posters especially.

Oh, I thought of a third thing. Some of us are of a certain age, which means our memories aren't that great. Just because something was discussed way back in October on one of the long threads, does not mean we won't relish the chance to talk about it all over again. (I think SCfan calls this CRS disease, but I don't remember for sure.)

Loved your comments, as Roger and Burt are favorites of mine, and I found Burt's sister to be an intriguing new character - I hope we see more of her in Season 3.

.....z.....You left out the "ad nauseum" part!!

You know what's scary? Looking back at a REALLY old post, discovering a post nearly identical to one you just wrote, in which you said nearly the same identical things, almost the same identical way, and from the same identical point of view.

With no memory of the original post.

I found two about Glen Bishop that fell into that category, and had to run to the mirror to make sure there was just one of me.

Eeek.

Alice used to babysit for Roger when he was a little boy. She read him Pooh while Bert tried to introduce him to early writings by Ayn Rand. It is plain to see by his choice of Jane and not Joan whose stories sank in!

Alice used to babysit for Roger when he was a little boy. She read him Pooh while Bert tried to introduce him to early writings by Ayn Rand. It is plain to see by his choice of Jane and not Joan whose stories sank in!

Uh oh...now poor kathiemarie has contracted the dreaded Double Post Syndrome (very contagious!)...Soooooo.....now she's a True Maddict!

She gets to wear the Sacred Hoover's Hose (insert Maddict Chant here) draped over her shoulder for the next month! Lucky girl!

P.S. Z, some other Maddict came up with the "CRS" (Can't Remember S**t) "Disease" moniker for us Silver Maddicts (over 50?) months and months ago...wasn't me who originated it....I just chimed in (after I read it) that I was also a sufferer! lol

.....Even though Alice is in the process of convincing Bert to retire, I'm sincerely hoping to see them both again.

They lend a complete other facet (and generational representation) to the whole symphonic jewel that is wonderfully quirky, fresh, very intelligent and very relevant, as story lines go.

Besides, they can't leave Roger alone, as the only crazy rich person in power. Wouldn't be nearly as fun.

It would be nice to know more about the origins of Roger's childhood relationships. There is a story there, for sure.

I get the impression Roger was orphaned at a young age, and quite probably Alice and Bert had a big part in his upbringing, along with boarding and prep schools.

That's quite a visual, right there.....

What if Roger's caustically sardonic wit is a cover for some deep, funky s**t?

You know, apart from the post-cardiac panic attack, we haven't yet seen inside the darker, more pensive thoughts of Roger Sterling.

People say he doesn't have any, but that can't be totally true. Everyone does, even sociopaths (there's that word again!), it just depends on if and how we are squeezed.

I think they call it "hitting rock bottom."

I know for sure that Roger is bothered over the fact that he and Margaret (his daughter) are not close (to put it mildly!) There were two scenes I recall where he talks about this -- once to Joan (at the hotel after their regular tryst) and even to Mirabelle, whom he had just met (and had sex with...after the "ride'em cowboy" bit!) ... so, it's obvious she's on his mind a lot and will discuss her with anyone who will listen.

It could be that Matt will include something in S3 about Margaret (an accident or worse?) --now that would really bring out some emotion in Roger. There haven't been many scenes with her, so maybe she's due a few...it would be nice, too, if they showed Roger's home...that would be novel.

I'd like to see more about Roger and Margaret's relationship, too. She must be furious at him for what he's done to Mona. They're probably estranged now. He gains Jane but loses his daughter. It would be good to see the fallout from this.

Very interesting and insightful topic and posts! I have to confess that I didn't discover Winnie the Pooh until I was about 19. One of my friends had a record (LP, 33 1/3 speed - way before CDs for you younger Maddicts) of Pooh songs sung by Jack Gilford. I got my own copy and wore it out. I made sure my son and then my grandsons had the books which we read together.

When that scene with Roger and Alice came on I almost cried while the little song about Changing the Guard...played in my head. It was so clever of you, jackie, to read some deeper meaning into it. I was too focused on my memories to realize the connection to the British buy-out of SC.

And Drink & Smoke, I totally agree with the other posters here, you're right on the mark!!!

LP's!!!....I have a bunch, but I need a new turntable!
Thanks for reminding me, rozsie!

: - )

I want to hear all my Nat, Perry, Sweet Baby James Taylor (Sweet Geezer James now), Emmylou Harris, Simon and Garfunkel, Frankie S. (well, we have CD's of him we listen to already) and all that great 50's-60''s "stuff" in all it's Pristine Vinyl-ness!!!

.....SCfan.....That's a very good point about Margaret I didn't pick up on the first hundred times around. You guys are so good!

Also, do you remember also as Mona stormed out of the office after confronting Draper, Roger tells her to "Calm down, let's talk about this," and she says, "You can talk to Margaret!"

Wow.

I can't imagine the family holiday dinners, now!!!

Is Roger going to get a sports car, start wearing silk shirts open to the waist with a bunch of gold chains around his neck?

What is the 1960s equivalent for male mid-life crisis?

roszie.....jackie frequently comes up with things no one else has thought of......or had the nerve to say!!

No, Dry, I missed Mona's comment to Roger about talking to Margaret! Good catch!

I was too busy counting all the doilies on her dress, I guess...tacky/"busy"! She needed to wear that dress without all the extras (jewelry, etc.) since the doilies were so commanding of attention, IMO. She's usually so well turned out, but not that day...I think, like another Maddict pointed out after the first airing, she was made to look dowdy on purpose for that confrontation...the scorned woman and all....contrast between her and the "latest model"...

.....Yeah.....that dress was a stretch, but hey....I wasn't there.....

If I were going to storm into an office and make the scene of all scenes, I would have worn a better dress.

Why didn't Mona borrow a dress from Joan that day? Instead Mona decided to go rummaging through her mother's closet for that doilie disaster. Mona...what WERE you thinking?

Hey, I didn't think that dress was THAT bad. It was probably expensive, which doesn't always translate into attractive. It was matronly, though, I agree.

.....I just don't know if I agree with the point of putting that matronly dress on Mona. I think I read there was a point, but I don't agree.

The Sterlings are a very elegant family. Remember Margaret who is, what? 19? Wearing a French-roll chignon, elegant jacket and sheath, pearls and button earrings? At lunch!......she's like 19!.....

Mona is usually very elegant and classic and well turned-out. All I can figure is she was a little messed, like any woman would be, and made some bizarre choices in terms of dress and hair.

Maybe it was meant to show how upset and off-balance she was, and the point was the heat of the moment, but that still wouldn't stop me from pulling out the stops.

If it were my husband leaving me for a Barbie half my age, and I were going to confront him, in front of his new girlfriend, at the office where they spend all that time together, you bet I would put on the hottest, sleekest, most elegant thing I had.

Hell, I'd spend the crap out of Roger's credit cards, buy a whole NEW wardrobe, get my hair and face fixed, lose 10 pounds, and put on the friggin' dog!

It may be the last time she gets to have a voice in front of any of those people, and I would play my cards a little more judiciously than that.

Just sayin'.....

Totally agree, Dry...spend it all before Jane can get her hooks in it!!!!

Heee

Uh, Drink...not sure Mona could fill out certain areas of any dress "borrowed" from Joan!

(not that Joan's wardrobe isn't chic)

I mean, who could???? Mona has a lovely figure...but, ..... !!!!!!!!!

You're right, SCfan. ;o) It definitely wasn't just the red dress Joan wore that day that made Ken Cosgrove stand up and salute her in the one way mirror. Cheers

I loved that striped number Joan wore when she escorted Peggy to her new office as a copywriter (right before Peggy started to go into labor)...form-fitting (does she own any other kind?) and lovely.

That woman knows how to strut her stuff....

Yeah, I hit submit button twice. I takes so long lately for the post to submit. Maybe someone tried to post something the censors did not appreciate!

Could be CRS,though I am over 50.

.....Didn't you hear? 50 is the new "30."

....well, maybe it's the new "40" anyway....

I thought Roger recited this poem because Alice had babysat him when he was a child and had read it to him or helped him recite it. Back in those days, children were taught to memorize and recite poems and passages of literature.

Didn't Roger say about Alice, 'the best babysitter in the world?"

I don't think it was code at all, just Roger's way of reconnecting with Alice, showing her that he remembered their earlier relationship.

Hey Drink you might know this. My parents had a record album of some people sitting around a fire pit, drinking and one of the women had on a big dress with larges roses on it kind of like what Sal's wife was wearing in one episode where they had the dinner party. Do you know the name of that record or the group?
Thanks.

chopin...I recall Roger saying that about Alice, also.

Makes one wonder, (what with Jack Nicholson's mother/"sister" situation, and others in Hollywood) if old Alice might turn out to be something other than just Roger's "babysitter"...like his Mom or something!....sounds kinda like something MW would hit us with out of the blue....weeee...what a nice juicy tidbit that would be!

God, I'm getting desperate....Aug. 16 hurry up!!

.....Bert's comment at lunch to Alice about her "friend," whose name escapes me at the moment, was interesting.

He inquired about the "friend's" health and said something about ".....She's a good companion....."

And the sharp look on Alice's face, who replies testily, "She's moody....."

I presume that means Alice is either bisexual or gay, and wonder if we'll ever know for sure.

Good catch, there, Dry...maybe she was talking about her life partner, which is as good a possibility as any (bisexual or gay) -- and as we all know, MW doesn't drop those crumbs recklessly!

...Re: Roger's comment, "Best babysitter I ever had..." He said that to Alice as the partners voting meeting was breaking up...as they were lobbing comments to each other on the way out of the rooom....(at the same time as the "you'll need the money to take care of your children..." exchange).

I don't doubt that she did babysit Roger...

NEXT ITEM: ....the question SCfan posed...: "could Alice also be Roger's biological Mother?" That had occurred to me also. (But SCfan, I have to "call you" on the "Chinatown"/mother-sister reference, as that was an incestuous, familial situation. Whereas if Alice and Roger are indeed biologically Mother/Son, there's no genetically improper or biolocially incestuous event there. Socially incestuous, maybe).

I visualize the once young and beautiful Alice "mixing it up" (maybe just once, maybe as an on-going affair) with Mr. Sterling Sr. (Roger's Dad), and the two families deciding on an arrangment deemed to be in everybody's best interest --(except maybe Sterling Sr.'s wife's) --That arrangement being to have Sr. Sterling and wife raise Roger, "pretending" he was a child born of their marriage rather than the illegitemate child of Sr.'s adulturous fling with the rather wild, experimental Alice.

Who knows?

But I do sense that Roger and Alice have some kind of "extra" communication level going on that portends more than just..."she's the spinster sister of my Dad's senior partner and, oh yes, she used to baby-sit me occasionally...."

They're too "familiar" with each other-- (in that intimate way that family members might be in conversation with each other).

I remember a scene in which someone in the office, concerned about the vote --probably Duck -- asked Roger--pre-vote--how it would go; and I distinctly remember Roger saying something to the efffect that Burt would vote for the merger, and that :

"Alice will do what Burt tells her to do." :) !!

I have chuckled a few times upon thinking of Roger's deliberate obfuscation of the actual Alice/Burt dynamics. Alice runs Burt, not the other way around....(Remember her persuasivness of Burt in their luncheon in Burt's office...Alice was at her charming, subtlely manipulative best there)!!

And why would Roger want to obscure the true dynamics of Alice/Burt from other members of the office? Ah, well, we'll have to wait and see, but for starters it puts a lot of pure power (votes and otherwise) directly into Roger's hands: he and Alice are in league and they can manipulate Burt.

....In writing all of the above, I've succeeded in convincing MYSELF: Alice and Roger are too much alike for this not to be a case of " the apple doesn't fall far from the tree..."

I'd love to hear any challenges to this theory, though....it is just a theory.

If it's possible Roger IS Alice's child, it probably makes more sense that she got pregnant as a young woman by a boyfriend, and the Sterlings adopted Roger. That sounds plausible.

And it would be just like Roger to make some inside joke about it, like "best babysitter I ever had." Good call SC and jackie, it never occured to me that she could be Roger's mother.

...yes, Mambo, that would be Roger's sense of humor alright. But if this "Mother Alice" theory is correct, I still vote for Mr. Sterling Sr. as the probable Dad...because if it was just some other random boyfriend, why wouldn't Burt and his wife have "adopted" the little bastard? (pardon the language...just some humor at Roger's expense).

Btw, your "take" on the class issue in the Pete/Trudy marriage really added some depth to understanding that whole bizarre pair-up.

...To kathiemarie: on June 22 @ 4:02 PM ...

I thought you double-posted so people wouldn't miss your very witty remark....(kidding). Seriously, though, that was clever and funny.

SCfan... 'scuse me m'am...my bad. I carelessly read your above post and instantly thought "Chinatown," but that's not what you said (duh)...You clearly said: "Jack Nicholson's mother/sister situation." (And as we know, it came out some years ago that Jack was raised believing that his grandmother was his Mother, when in reality his "Sister" was his Mother -- although she wasn't really his Sister, she was his grandmother's daughter). Are we sufficiently confused now boys and girls?

Anyhoo...my apologies SC. You can slap me down anytime...I'm due for it.

Yes, jackie...that's what I meant up there...Jack's personal situation, not the "my sister/my daughter" bit with Fay Dunaway in "Chinatown"...

Nope, you'll get no slappin' down from me...I also have been guilty of reading too fast and replying too soon...think nothing of it.

I've wondered before if Jack N. was grown before he knew his real parentage or if he knew as a boy.
If it was revealed to/dawned on him after he was a man (although it's hard for me to believe he never suspected) it had to be a major shock.

Yes, I will be watching S3 anxiously to see if there turns out to be more than meets the eyes/ears to the Roger/Alice dynamic...juicy...and so like MW to hit us with unaware...well, sort of....

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