I must tell you, I am not the movie buff, but admit I am having a grand time looking at the films that were on the periphery of my world in 1960.

Television was not a big part of my world (I was 10), and my parents and grandparents religions kept us away from popular romantic cinema. I do remember going to the movies, but I remember mostly of I have heard so much about the actors in my adult life, and have finally taken a moment to look at their early careers.

In point, Jack Lemmon, Shirley MacLaine and Fred MacMurray were amazing in the movie, “The Apartment.” I have a greater appreciation for the casting directors, too. I took quite a bit of time looking for that ‘little something’ that set them above their peers for their roles in this movie so early in their careers.

I was impressed especially by the casting of Fred MacMurray. I remember him only from his smiling television roles and was not prepared to dislike his character. He was the hidden surprise in this movie, and he pulled it off very well.

Shirley MacLaine was quite a talent! She played the role with a sensitivity that would have made Joan quite sympathetic to the movie and cause her to be angry at Roger. Fran’s character was so well-written she knew all she needed to do was make herself available…and she did it magnificently. It is a wonder that she is the same actress in “Terms of Endearment.”

Anyway,….this has been fun. If no one completes this process with me, I’ll continue this journey alone….and thank everyone for making the suggestion to do this....:)

whoops!...
Above, I was trying to say I remember mostly serial westerns and some outer space fantasy stuff when we went to the movies. sorry I didn't finish my sentence...

My parents must have spared us the humiliation of being forced (as all Negro children were at the time) to sit in 'certain places' on 'certain days,' and kept us busy doing many other things...music, theater, athletics, academics.... I missed the early development of Hollywood and the 'glamourous' industry in its infancy. I now understand why Matt Weiner is so rooted in his presentation and viewpoint, especially if he was one raised like little Sally and Bobby...sitting in front of the tv absorbing the world as presented.

I also wanted to mention....

When Pete told Trudy, "...she looked like a young Barbara Stanwyck," I thought it a little odd. My experience with Barbara Stanwyck began with her stint in the tv series, "The Big Valley." Until this adventure I didn't know the vast extent of her career prior to 1960. In truth, by the time she played the role of Victoria Barkley, she had lightened and cut her hair. Much earlier movie and tv promotion photos show her with shoulder-length dark hair, like Trudy. I now understand why Pete made such a comment.

Would Trudy have been flattered by his comment? How tied to movie stars were the women in Mad Men? Who was the beauty standard at that time? When did it shift to the 'Marilyn Monroe' (blonde bombshell) model? Did the shift have anything to do with the approaching women's liberation movement?

Greytone: I was an avid movie goer from the 1940s
through the 1970s and, from my memory, the
beauty standard in the early 1960s was the
Sophia Loren and Marilyn Monroe types like Joan.
Of course there was Audrey Hepburn who was
waif-like and adored.

Try to catch the movie "Double Indemnity" with both
Barbara Stanwyck and Fred McMurray. Great film that is often shown on AMC and/or Turner Classic.

I have always had a love-hate viewpoint when it comes to Barbara Stanwyck. I always disliked still pictures of her because my mother's only sister looked very much like her, and I intensely disliked my aunt. She was not a nice woman. Enough about her. Whenever I would watch a movie with Ms. Stanwyck, however, I always wound up enjoying them. She was a marvelous actress and always portrayed strong women. She held her own against some of the best actors of her age, including Clark Gable and Gary Cooper. Watching her films from the early 30's thru the 60's is fascinating - it's like watching someone you know grow up. My favorite Stanwyck movies are: "Christmas in Connecticut", "Ball of Fire", and "Double Indemnity." My favorite character of her's is "Sugarpuss O'Shea" from "Ball of Fire."

Yes, Greytone, when you only know Fred MacMurray from his Disney movies (like "The Absent Minded Professor") and the "My Three Sons" TV show, it is a huge surprise to see him playing such a cad in "The Apartment." Great actor, indeed. He is wonderful with Barbara Stanwyck in "Double Indemnity." One of my favorites of his movies is "The Egg and I," with Claudette Colbert.

I forgot to talk about the link to Mad Men re: Barbara Stanwyck. I have no idea why Pete told Trudy she looked like B.S., as she does not in the least, as far as I can see. Guess it was just the thing back then to compare women to actresses, maybe.

I wonder if Roger would have seen "The Apartment", and if so, would he have seen any similarity between himself and the Fred MacMurray character? I think Roger is too much in denial about who he is and how he treats people to see the same thing Joan probably saw.

Fred MacMurray was also great as the bad guy in "The Caine Mutiny."

What a fascinating topic, Greytone!

Very early in his movie career, when Fred MacMurray was better know as a big band sax player who sang, Fred specialized in playing nice young men. Therefore it was a stretch and a leap of faith when he took the role in "Double Indemnity" that turned him into an actor of note. The script was marvelous, as was the direction by Billy Wilder, who had been trying to make this movie for many years. Edward G. Robinson also took a leap of faith accepting the role of insurance investigator.

By the time "Double Indemnity" went into production Barbara Stanwyck was one of the best paid actresses in Hollywood. Early in her career, in silents, she had usually been blonde. Yet in 1944 when "Double Indemnity" opened there was an outcry about her blonde wig. Personally I think it really helped form the character of "Phyllis"

Zerelda, with respect, I disagree about Barbara in comedy. Months before making "Ball of Fire" 1941 she starred in what most consider the funniest Preston Sturges film, "The Lady Eve" Barbara had her familiar dark brown hair in this, in which she plays con artists "Jean" and "Eve" carrying on with Henry Fonda. Charles Coburn plays her father.

Two of Barbara's early Pre-Code talkies are available in TCM Forbidden Hollywood collections. She is sympathetic as Lora the starring role in "Night Nurse" from 1931 also featuring early appearances by Joan Blondell and Clark Gable.

Later, in 1933, Barbara channeled her inner bad girl as Lily in "Baby Face" The original version was considered so naughty it was edited for general release. It is considered the movie that brought on enforcement of the Production Code by the Hayes Office. George Brent (Bebe Daniel's) love interest in "42nd Street" the same year, was corrupted by Barbara. John Wayne made a brief appearance, still looking like a college guy.

Maybe Roger and Burt of SC were old enough to have seen some of these. "Double Indemnity" was daring but very popular. Even Joan might have seen it first-run, and certainly would have seen it on TV because after 1960 it ran often.

Hi greytone!

Great topic! "Double Indemnity" has to be my favorite Barbara S. movie.

Do you know the name of the movie she was in where she played a working class mother with a daughter who was dating a rich guy? That was another Barbara S. classic.
I really loved her character, I felt so bad for her.

And who can forget Carol Burnett's parody "Double Calamity"?!!!

I am going to try to find "The Apartment", it sounds really good.

I saw “The Pajama Game” in Manhattan in 1954. A few weeks later I read that Carol Haney, the featured singer and dancer, had broken her ankle and been replaced by her understudy, Shirley MacLaine, an unknown 20-year-old. One night Hal Wallis, a prominent Hollywood producer, attended a performance, saw MacLaine, and signed her to a film contract on the spot. At the time I thought that if Carol Haney had been on stage that night, she might have been the lucky one signed. Timing is everything, isn’t it? MacLaine went to Hollywood and never looked back.

Shirley MacLaine was 26 in 1960 when she appeared in “The Apartment.” I thought she was perfectly cast. She was cute and pert with a short simple hair-do, not a glamourous actress trying to play an elevator operator. All the actors were good (especially Jack Lemmon, Fred MacMurray, and the man who played the doctor next door!) and consistently maintained the broad acting style called for in a comedy of manners. The script never sank to treacly pathos. “The Apartment” won the Oscar for Best Picture in 1960, unusual for a comedy.

Through the years I've seen most of MacLaine's films, my favorites being "The Turning Point" (1977), “Terms of Endearment” (1980), and “Postcards from the Edge” (1990). I thought her acting got better over the years.

"The Apartment" mirrors some of Matt Weiner's points in Mad Men, for example, the casual infidelity (and disregard for their wives) of men in power, the caste system in the office, and the second class status of women and African Americans. When Roger tells Joan he saw the film "last week with Mona and Margaret," he comments, "A white elevator operator? And a woman at that!" That speaks volumes.

Yes! The "Night Nurse" - I remembered that movie when I posted earlier, and I was trying like the devil to remember who played the bad guy - a very young, indeed, Clark Gable. Thank you, C. Carroll Adams, PhD. By the way, are you new to this forum? I don't reading your posts before today. Very interesting, and yes, Barbara Stanwyck was great in "The Lady Eve." Am I wrong, or was that not an unusual role for Henry Fonda? I always remember him for his dramatic roles.

Just a side note about Shirley MacLaine - she fits into the Hitchcock thread that seems to weave in and out of Mad Men - she starred in "The Trouble With Harry," a lighthearted murder mystery Hitchcock did in the 50's that seemed to highlight the fall foliage of the New England countryside quite as much as it did the plot.

Hi all,
I loved this movie "The Apartment" I can see the similarities in Mad Men. I was so happy when Jack Lemmon finally tells those jerks that they can't use his apartment anymore. Wasn't one of those bimbos once on an episode of the Andy Griffith show playing one of the "fun girls"? Anyway I thought his apartment was so cozy. I loved his fireplace and of course his little silver Christmas tree. So anyway this is a fun idea Greytone. I thought of a couple of other fun movies you might want to watch, "Boys Night Out" (James Garner & Kim Novak) and "Kiss Me Stupid" (Dean Martin & Kim Novak).

Thanks to everyone who contributed thoughts to this thread. Reading all of them has been really enlightening! I've seen some familiar names and even comments from newer Maddicts (the name we gave ourselves earlier this year.)

Hey, 60's child!... It's been a while!....

Thanks to our new resident PhD....Your information was really enlightening. The special features on the DVD revealed a lot about the casting and the 'making of' details on the movie, and most mirrored your comments....zerelda ...so sorry Barbara Stanwyck brings up bad memories. :)

Remembering....
As always, your posts are well worth the time spent reading...thank you for taking time. You reminded me of Roger's comment about the movie. Don't hesitate to visit next month's thread, too!

BTW...did anyone view the movie, "BU-tterfield 8?" That was one of our assigned movies, too. It was also mentioned this season (I forget where) and stars the young, beautiful Elizabeth Taylor.

Was movie-going one of your ongoing pastimes in 1960? It seems that the employees of Sterling Cooper kept up with the new industry's' output. Was movie-going part of your weekly splurge? Do you still go often, or has cable pre-empted the activity?

All the movies Maddicts have suggested will certainly keep me watching the DVDs 'til next season!

60's Child: Was the movie you were thinking of "Stella Dallas?" I never saw it, but the plot sounds familiar.

About "Butterfield 8,"

The first film I saw Elizabeth Taylor in was "National Velvet" (1944) when she was 12 and I was an envious teenager. She was the most beautiful child imagineable! She was a gorgeous 28 when "Butterfield 8" was filmed in 1960. Although she won an Academy Award for the film, I never thought she was a very good actress until "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?" (1966) which she made with her fifth husband Richard Burton and for which she won her second Academy Award. In that film she was willing to sublimate her looks to great acting.

"Butterfield 8," the film based on a 1935 novel by John O'Hara, seemed a little superficial to me. I really didn't care when Gloria Wandrous met her unfortunate end. I hadn't felt much sympathy for her. I know she was "struggling toward respectability" and all that, but I didn't believe that being a call girl and ruining someone's marriage was the way to go. In "Mad Men" Jane (Roger's fiancee) feels it's all right to go down that road. However, I think Joan is smarter. She and Roger had a sincere relationship, but Joan realized it was a dead end and stopped it after Roger's heart attack.

(Call me shallow, but I kept thinking, oh, how interesting, Eddie Fisher, Taylor's fourth husband is appearing in this movie with her! In 1960 her personal life was tabloid candy.)

I remember seeing "Butterfield 8" and not caring for it at all. I never like Laurence Harvey or Eddie Fisher, either for that matter - total lack of sex appeal on both their parts. I have always believed that Elizabeth Taylor won her Oscar for that movie simply because of her tracheotomy scar. Yes, she was all over the gossip sheets back then, and she was always portrayed in them as some beautiful, child-like goddess waltzing around hotel rooms in French designer negligees, dripping jewels and trailed by little lap dogs. I loved "The Last Time I Saw Paris," "Giant," "A Place in the Sun," and "Suddenly Last Summer," but it is quite possible I only enjoyed those movies because of the storylines and the other actors. I do agree that Ms. Taylor was a strikingly beautiful woman, and I have always wondered if her eyes were really violet and how long her marriage to Mike Todd would have lasted had he not died. However, I have never considered her a great actress. (Goodness, what a cat I sound, but I am posting this nonetheless.)

60s Child & Gail Klein: I also believe that the
movie you referred to is "Stella Dallas" a very
popular movie in it's day. BTW, there used to be
a restaurant in New Hope, PA (near me) called
Stella Dallas.

I also feel the only movie Liz Taylor was a good
actress in was "Virginia Woolf." But I loved the
film "A Place in the Sun." I did not enjoy
"Butterfield 8" and agree that she got the award due to her illness at the time.

When Butterfield 8 was nominated, I remember comments were made about it not being her best or their favorite. Does anyone remember how it was tied into Mad Men? Was the reference to her beauty (the actress) or the character's life (call girl)?

I'de like to add to this discussion if I may. First I'de like to say something about Liz Taylor. And that is she was MOST DEFINATELY the Britney Spears of her time. Her health issues and particularly her love life were a train wreck that people couldn't stop getting enough of. Beyond the movies she made at this time.

In Episode 1, during a night out, Betty and Don met an old friend of Betty's from her days as a model, and Don later informed Betty that the woman was a call girl. When Betty was telling her friend Francine about it, Francine compared her too Elizabeth Taylor in "Butterfield 8."

I certainly do wish we still had phone numbers like that today. So much more romantic, mysterious and chic to tell someone to call you at "Butterfield 8" than rattling off a string of numbers, and so much easier to remember.

Thanx, zerelda... I remember now!

I wanted to mention the telephone numbers, too. I remember my first memorized telephone number was DA-venport something. Anyone else remember the words that preceded their 6-digit phone number?

About Barbara Stanwyck and The Big Valley. You do realize WHY BS did the show in the first place don't you. She did the show for 2 BIG REASONS. 1 was she wanted to keep working as an actress and believe me back then women in particular more or less HAD to retire by AGE 50. And 2 she wanted to appeal to the BABY BOOM generation. And people thought she was off her rocker at the time for doing of all things a western. But her career continued while other actresses retired.

Gee! Where to begin?
60s Child, I agree, the movie you were trying to remember with Barbara Stanwyck was STELLA DALLAS. A real tearjerker but her performance was outstanding.

C.Carroll Adams PhD - (We must both watch TCM a lot!) your reference to BABY FACE was in line with my voting for Ms. Stanwyck. In that movie she uses her sexuality to work her way to the top in the business world. She has determination and ambition, a la Dick Whitman. She re-invents herself, going from a poor white-trash young girl working in her father's saloon to a top-notch executive businesswoman. I think the comment Pete made to Trudy was just offhand, since I don't recall any other references being made to Ms. Stanwyck. And Pete probably just wanted to get on the good side of Trudy at the moment.

Barbara Stanwyck's own life seems parallel to BABY FACE - she bagan her career in silent films and after years of making some real stinkers and more importantly, some great movies (EXECUTIVE SUITE for one) she ventured into TV and became an icon. And don't forget the THORNBIRDS series!

As a child in the 40s and early 50s, my mother took my brother and I to the movies everytime the picture changed. My dad worked the night shift so my mother, my aunt, my two cousins, my brother and I would go to the movies. I think it cost a nickel then. On Wednesday night they gave dishes away - a real bonus! There was always a double feature, newsreel, cartoon and coming attractions. What a bargin!

As I grew up my love for movies never stopped. I have an old scrapbook of movie star pictures which I cherish. Even today my son will call me and ask me who was such and such in some old movie that he is watching or has seen. Sad to say I can't keep up with all the one-shot wonders these days - there are just too many and most are not worth remembering. Yes, there are a few exceptions, but that's for another discussion.

But back to the subject: THE APARTMENT...Yes, I agree it was perfectly cast. I wanted to slap Fred McMurray so many times - and at the same time, since I was older when I first saw it - I realized that there were/are men just like his character. I had worked with men like that and the women who became part of their "secret" lives. A couple of my girlfriends at the time were seeing married men. Unfortunately, their relationships ended with the man staying with his wife. (Didn't they always?) We girlfriends were not judgemental with each other - it was just the way things were. The sexual revolution was begining - explicit foreign movies, the pill, "free love", etc...it was a new era.

In the APARTMENT Edie Adams was so good in her role as McMurray's secretary (and wasn't she a former lover?). That character reminds me of the phone operator/secretary in MM who is trying to coerce a few of the men into making sure she gets a better job, after revealing some confidential information to them. Sorry, I can't think of her name at the moment. She was Don's secretary for about five minutes. I wouldn't put it past her to be keeping score and using what she knows to further her career in the future.

BUTTERFIELD 8 was not one of my favorites. Taylor's character seemed to whine all the time and I didn't sense any chemistry between her and Mr. Harvey's character.

Greytone, thanks so much for setting this up and to all of you who have posted. I look forward to reading all the future comments!

addieray....
While doing research for this discussion I learned how far back Barbara Stanwyck's career went! She was a well seasoned actress by the time I was born. I now know if I continue to gauge her chops based on her Big Valley role, I will be doing her a grave disservice.... Now, you tell me she was industry savvy, too. Great insight...

Glad everyone is enjoying our discussion....your movie memories are amazing...

Does everyone know the movies and actor for next month, or should I post a reminder at the end of our discussion?

A few more comments about Barbara Stanwyck.

The movies I remember her in were some of her early ones: "Golden Boy" (1939 with William Holden), "Ball of Fire" (1941 with Gary Cooper), "The Lady Eve" (1941 with Henry Fonda), "Double Indemnity" (1944 with Fred MacMurray), and "Sorry, Wrong Number" (1948 with Burt Lancaster).

I realized she was a very good actress, but she was never one of my favorites. She played strong women who didn't really need my sympathetic involvement in their problems.

After she moved to TV in 1957 (at age 50), I didn't follow her career, but I was aware that she did very well for many years. Smart broad, I thought, to move from silent films to "talkies" to television successfully in one lifetime!

How many of these actors/actresses are still alive?

Love love love reading all your insightful comments!

I adore "The Apartment"...Shirley MacLaine is absolutely wonderful in it...cute and her acting is always flawless. I always love Jack Lemmon, too, right up to his "Grumpy Old Men" movies with Walter Matthau...I miss both of them so much...talk about hilarious...and I do believe they were best buds in "real life" as well. The "outtakes" at the end of "Grumpy Old Men" are soooo funny! Burgess Meredith's euphymisms for sex--- "Comoniwannalayah" "Iwannalickeytickey" etc. And Walter forgetting his lines and Jack standing there waiting and waiting--and finally saying "Get another actor!" and everyone dying laughing. Not to mention, "Some Like It Hot"----classic and unbelievably funny.

I always watch "The Apartment" whenever it's on even though I've seen it so many times I practically have it memorized! The acting is so totally perfect from every actor in the movie, it is fascinating to watch just for that reason alone.

As for Elizabeth Taylor, she was fantastic in "Giant" I remember a full page, closeup picture of her in Life Magazine once in the '60's with no makeup on and a towel on her head and she was still a knockout...depressing! And yes, her eyes were a gorgeous violet.

Oh, I just recalled a funny scene in "Grumpy Old Men" when Walter had some trick or treaters come to his door and he didn't have any treats---so he gave one kid a stapler (!) and the other one something just as stupid. So funny

I do still remember when Barbara Stanwyck received her honorary Oscar - so touching - she talked about William Holden ("Golden Boy" co-star) who had died the year or so previously. She said he always wanted her to receive an Oscar and now he got his wish. Holden on another occasion said he owed his career to her because the studio wanted to replace him on "Golden Boy" and she wouldn't let them.

Hi greystone, I'm kinda new to your MM site. You asked if anyone remembers their phone prefix. Mine was FL-eetwood. My parents still have the same number because they still live in the same house that they purchased in 1957. They're in their 90"s. rozsie the switchboard operators name is Lois. I would remember that because my mom owned an answering service that she started in 1945 at the age of 27. I enjoyed your movie discussion I'm going to check out TCM to see the Barbara Stanwyck movies they sound like they'd be really good.

zerelda, I heard all that about BS, too (unfortunate initials, no? lol) that she was such a wonderful mentor to new actors and all.

I saw Robert Wagner on some morning show not long ago talking about living with her (I do think he meant in a sexual way, but, who can blame her, right?) when he first came to Hollywood and how she helped him get started and all.

I hold nothing against her for shacking up with the "kid"---remember how gorgeous he was back then?

There is also one of those spotlight deals on TCM with, can't think of her name right now, but she's Vic Morrow's daughter...talking about Barbara Stanwyck being so great and all. She was a sweet, caring lady behind all those bitches she played on screen!

Barbara Stanwyck was married to that absolutely gorgeous Robert Taylor, too, by the way. I know it ended in divorce, but they were together for quite some time for Hollywood. He was the Jon Hamm of his time, where looks were concerned.

Yes, Robert Wagner was very open about his affair with Ms. Stanwyck. Wow, what a life she led. Hollywood in its golden age. Makes you wonder just how many of the great male actors of her time found their way into her bed. Guess we could wonder that about all of the famous actresses from back in the day, couldn't we. Just remembered, I recall reading somewhere that she also had an affair with the actor that played her oldest son on "Big Valley." Have no idea where I read that, so take it with a grain of salt.

Hollywood gossip! I feel so shallow - but maybe since it is all really old gossip it falls into the history category - yeah, that's right - we are studying film history. Now I don't feel so bad.

I like the fim history or whatever you want to call it. MM isn't the only place where couches are used often. Hollywood was known for the casting couch. Wasn't it Pete who told Peggy she might consider getting a new couch when she moved into Freddy's old office.

Were there gossip magazines that circulated the rumors about these celebrities, or is all that we know now recently revealed (from memoirs or probate proceedings)?

Some of the things I've read here are new to me, and I try to think about where I was at the time and what was going on in my neighborhood. The black community has its stars, too....While Hollywood concentrated on the careers of Barbara Stanwyck, I was among those idolizing Lena Horne, or Dorothy Dandridge, Pearl Bailey or Diane Carrolls of the generation. Our matinee men were the Billy Ekstines or Cab Calloways or Duke Ellington sorts, and we went to see the films where they appeared as the band (or the band singer) in the background. It was one reason all children played musical instruments in my elementary school and graduated to playing in city orchestras and jazz combos in the state.

It seems that the Joans and dreamy-eyed Peggys migrating to the big cities got their information from somewhere, but there were no TMZs or Entertainment Tonights at the time. Cinema was new and cheap, and both movies and television were new and expanding rapidly. Was it all so publicized back then, or was it all on the down-low and we know all this as 20-20 hindsight?

There were the powerful print moguls like Hedda Hopper and other studio publicists spreading the news (or blocking the gossip, I guess...) But, I wonder where else these ladies got their dreamy-eyed interpretation of the American Dream? Why would Joan connect emotionally with the movie "The Apartment" and the actress, Marilyn Monroe?

I think humanity has not changed so much from decade to decade or generation to generation. I have the feeling it has more to do with how public their actions have become.

Zerelda- The name you are refering to regarding Barbara Stanwyck having the affair with the oldest son on the Big Valley was RICHARD LONG.

holottawoman.... Thanx for your comments about your parents' phone number. I'm trying to remember some others. Telephones were not a big part of my childhood, and was something I overcame to go to work for 'Ma Bell.' I have since retired from the phone company and remember the days when area codes always had a zero or one as the second digit. lol (Today, I couldn't tell you where half the new area codes are!)

Remembering, zerelda... Thanx to you for your movie knowledge and perspective. Your insight creates more questions!

From all the facts on the actors/actresses careers and lifestyles you've related, there appear to be identical approaches to life presented by Weiner's characters, too.

Are people allowed to traipse through life with a selfish regard and be excused because of beauty or handsomeness (Elizabeth Taylor / Don Draper)? Can you be smart about how you handle your business, yet just be better at hiding similar actions and feelings (Bobby Barrett / Barbara Stanwyck)?

I hope I'm not sorry I tried too hard walk somewhere between the two life approaches. I look back now and feel like I haven't created enough memories....I'm now thinking in old age it wouldn't be bad to be left staring at the Krupp diamond or financial security (Taylor / Stanwyck), Joan and Jane approach interoffice romance differently. I just I wonder whose life story will make the better memoir?

I, too, was a movie star fan in the 50's and purchased all those movie magazines with full color portraits that I hung on our rec-room wall. I also worked in the movie theatre as a teen. Then, during the 60's after college, I married and still kept track of what the stars were doing. There was always a movie every week to go to (mostly at the drive in theatre). Looking back on it all now, I remember being a small town girl and how enthralled I was with the scandals and expose's in the old tabloid magazines like "Confidential". Elizabeth Taylor was front and center. She stole Eddie Fisher from Debbie Reynolds and then Richard Burton from his wife. The role she played in "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolff" seemed more like her real persona than the coy maiden she played in "Raintree County". As for Barbara Stanwyck - her personal life was not on display as much as Taylor's. I have a feeling that Elizabeth was a bit of a show-off and didn't mind the publicity so much. Shirley Maclaine was a wonder in the fifties when she appeared in "The Trouble With Harry" - she was a Hitchcock find and he introduced her in that film as a ingenue with a quirky sense of humour and an "eggbeater" hair cut. She was definately different and gave women a new role model. Her role in The Apartment was terrific because whe was McMurray's and Lemmon's equal, even though she played a subserviant woman.

In the early sixties we women were still trying to emerge from our forced roles as stay at home moms and over-protected debs. We could never go anywhere after dark alone - men were required as escorts most of the time. Men had all the freedom and many succumbed to affairs, it's true. But they also loved coming home to wife and children who were there to satisfy all their needs (without a squabble or demand of course). I can't wait to see what M. Weiner does with the Women's Liberation Movement. It was a drastic change in our society that, believe it or not, men are still reverberating from today!

Caught Barbara Stanwyck in "The Thorn Birds" last night. Goodness, could she play a mean woman. She really had the hots for Father Ralph, and who could blame her. I had forgotten just how gorgeous Richard Chamberlain was. It's been 25 years since that mini-series was filmed and it held up quite well. I am looking forward to seeing the rest of it. Ms. Stanwyck was classy to the end, finishing her career with a role like that one.

What is next on our movie discussion list? I'm too lazy to look back through the threads for the list, Greytone. I am certainly enjoying reading your comments and the others, too. Thank you for doing this.

Hey, zerelda, I watched "The Thorn Birds" too last night! I was watching it and wondering if any of my Maddict buds were watching as well, since we had been discussing Ms. Stanwyck...that woman sure knows how to play a bitch.

Yes, Richard Chamberlain was one hottie. I recall being over the moon for him as "Dr. Kildare" on TV. I would have arguments with my girlfriends about who was "cuter"--- him or Vince Edwards (Dr. Ben Casey) who was also very very hot in a sexy, earthy, oh-so-masculine way.

I remember going ga-ga over the song "One Star To Wish Upon" (one star to guide me) that was the theme from "Dr. Kildare" as sung by Richard Chamberlain...not much of a voice, but we all loved it anyway because it was him singing it. lol

I guess they are showing TTB on consecutive nights, right? Love that scene when he comes to her on the beach and she is resistant because she can't bear to have him break her heart--- yet again--but, then he kisses her and well, let's jut say she finally introduces him to the pleasures of the flesh...sexy sexy stuff. Wonderful miniseries, I must say.

I had a cousin who got married about 10 years ago and her dad paid the string quartet who played the pre-wedding music and the reception $100 to learn the theme from The Thorn Birds when they said they did not know it. They played it pre-wedding and it was soooo beautiful...made me and a lot of other guests cry. That music is so lovely.

zerelda...
December's viewing list will be:

"Man in the Grey Flannel Suit," "The Day the Earth Stood Still," and Loretta Young.

I scheduled "The Day the Earth Stood Still" this month because Jon Hamm's movie version is released this month (Dec12), and by the time we discuss it, everyone will have had a chance to watch both versions. This is gonna be a sort of Don Draper month, because he was referred to as the Man in the Grey Flannel Suit, too. We'll round it out with Loretta Young, who I clearly remember swooping in the room on her television shows.

I hope everyone comes back next month, too.

Oooh, Loretta Young! Good choice. As for "Man in the Grey Flannel Suit," that will be Gregory Peck and Jennifer Jones - both very intriguing actors. Here's a piece of trivia - watch for the little girl who plays their daughter - she was the real-life daughter of actor James Mason who Jon Hamm so memorably imitated on SNL. Gosh, Mad Men is like that old 6 Degrees of Separation game - everything leads back to Mad Men.

Yes, greytone, I too recall Loretta Y. opening those double doors and swooping in in her beautiful evening ensembles. My mother looked forward to her show just to see what she would swoop in wearing!

Neat memories...and as to some Loretta Young "movie-magazine-trashy-trivia"...she had a "love child" with Clark Gable (conceived supposedly while they were on location for "Call of the Wild") and then in true Hollywood style..."adopted" her own toddler a few years later!

Only in Hollywood...and only "way back when".

Nowadays that would not even qualify as scandalous!

@ Greytone so with your old phone number were you from Davenport Iowa? Just curious Remember the Glenn Miller song Pennsylvania 65000?

I love that movie Ball of Fire that BS was in. Gary Cooper is also one of my favorite actors.

No, No...! No tidbits now...
Pleeeeze......Save it for next month's discussion!

Don't forget to come back the last week in December to post on the new topic!

Chelsea...
My childhood was spent in Omaha, Nebraska. Location doesn't have a correlation does it?

Congratulations for starting one of the best threads ever, greytone!

The format of discussing two films and an actor has worked really well, hasn't it? The posts (and posters) have been entertaining and informative, and you've kept the discussion on track all the way. Thanks for making it happen.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

Back to Barbara Stanwyck - I just saw part 2 of "The Thorn Birds," when she croaked after her big scene where she told Father Ralph how much she adored him. Gotta say she was magnificent. I felt sorry for the woman - if I had been stuck out in the middle of hot, dusty Australia with nothing but kangaroos and sheep to look at, and Richard Chamberlain showed up on my doorstep, I would have been all hot and bothered myself. She should have tried harder. Heck, with 13 million smackers, I would have had him out of that priest garb and into my bed quicker than you could say didgeridoo, and died a happy woman.

I wish Peggy's priest had looked like Richard Chamberlain.

thank you, Remembering....
It has been fun, huh? You were a big part of that, so my thanks to you and everyone who participated!

i'm so glad this discussion exists! i was born 23 years after the apartment came out but it is (and has been since i was 10) my all time favorite movie! (now that i'm older i'm a little shocked that i was allowed to watch it back then) i'm also happy that they finally mentioned the movie on the show after i'd been noticing similarities & perhaps even intentional homages in nearly every episode. i've only recently become a maddict (i've been devouring them over the past month on dvd) & i adore it for reasons too numerous to count. the reason i first fell in love was that it was just like a technicolor sequel to the apartment. (haha if that makes any sense) i even half expected joan to twirl her finger around like fran before she pushed the elevator button for mr.cooper in episode 10. the sense of time & place is perfect. i have to constantly remind myself it was filmed only a couple of years ago. as far as i'm concerned, it's the tops, show-wise & otherwise-wise.

zerelda....
I didn't know Barbara Stanwyck was in the Thornbirds. I remember only Richard Chamberlain and Rachael Ward from the part of the series I managed to catch back then.

I now know why I may be so far out of the loop. I am a reader, and read the book and have imagined the faces of the characters in my mind. You know, when you do that, the casting director's vision may not match the one you've created. Now, I'm afraid to watch it for fear it will destroy the wonderful fictional account I read back then.

I only watched parts years later after Richard Chamberlain came out of the closet. After seeing him act in all the scenes, I am convinced of his unheralded acting ability. LOVED him in the tv series as Dr. Kildare!

Why did telephone numbers begin with words 'in the olden days?'

Originally, this scheme was meant as a mnemonic device for telephone number prefixes. The prefix was a name, and the first two or three letters (usually shown in capitals) of the name were dialed. When telephone numbers in the US were standardized 20th century, they were made seven digits long, including a two-digit prefix expressed as letters rather than numbers.

(Before World War II, many localities used three letters and four numbers, and in much of California during this period, phone numbers had only six digits — two letters followed by four numbers.) Later, the third letter (where previously used) was replaced by a number; this generally happened after World War II, although New York City did this in 1930. Thus, the famous Glenn Miller tune "PEnnsylvania 6-5000" refers to a telephone number 736-5000, the number of the Hotel Pennsylvania, which still bears the same number today.

Similarly, the classic Elizabeth Taylor film "BUtterfield 8" refers to the section of New York City where the film is set, where the telephone prefixes include 288 (on the East Side of Manhattan between roughly 64th and 86th Streets). This is why, in some works of fiction, phone numbers will begin with "KLondike 5" or "KLamath 5", which translates to 555, a mostly unused and reserved exchange. This practice continues in film and television to this day, even though the prefix system has long been unused.

Just a little telephone trivia I found fascinating...

.....It is very interesting how many people seem to have chosen Barbara Stanwyck for discussion. I voted for her also [votes unsubmitted], which kind of surprised me, and I realized it's her amazing versatility and bountiful charisma that made her stand out.

My impression of that day is that the rumor mills weren't much different in content from today, minus the technological advances of celebrity blogs, etc. There is an interesting take on the subculture in the movie The Cat's Meow if you ever have the chance to catch it.

Great backstories here about Miss Stanwyck.....as to her and Robert Taylor, I'm told he was the love of her life. At his funeral, it is storied that she broke from the gathering mourners and hurled herself onto his coffin in hysterics.

Miss Stanwyck had the full range of acting talent, and I wonder if anyone else enjoyed the light-hearted movie Ball of Fire (1941).... for fun, check out her performance of Drum Boogie.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEdh2MmIIVs

Don't miss Gene Krupa's matchstick solo at 4:00.

(Back to The Apartment!)

Greytone, remember that great Jimmy Stewart movie, "Call Northside 777"? He played a newpaperman in Chicago doing a story about a man in prison for life for murdering a policeman - he comes to believe the man is innocent and works to find evidence to free him.

I mentioned earlier that Mad Men was like the 6 Degrees of Separation game - here's another link: E. G. Marshall was in this movie and he went on to star in "The Defenders," which was the TV show with the episode about abortion that the SC staff watched and tried to pitch to one of their clients for sponsorship.

I am starting to think we should start a Mad Men thread on this game

zerelda....Wow! BU-tterfield, PE-nnslylvania, and NO-rthside....

Dry... I think the same activities were going on, and just has different media and people controlling the information. Now we have more than magazines and gossip journalists to spread and drum up dates and celebrities' private activities.

PS: I wondered why you never voted....I'm glad we got to your favorites early! I tried heard to schedule all the suggestions in the coming months.
Thanks for your input,....always fabulously interesting.

holottawoman.... I'm glad "The Apartment" is one of your favorites. I missed Fran's finger-twirl, and will be watching for it every time I see the movie in the future!

Just a bit off topic, but does anybody remember the doctor's wife in The Apartment? She was a great character actress, Naomi Burns. She also played Queen Liliokilani (Spelling?) in The Hawaiians, with a nose prothesis. I had the pleasure of meeting her as one of my husbands worked with her husband, who was a Disney artist.
She only had a cameo in The Apartment but she was super.

Re: old phone numbers, I lived in a small town, so we had only 4 digit numbers. But if you wanted to call somebody in town and forgot their number, you just asked the operator for Joe Smith or Sam's Cafe or whatever the name was. Sometimes the operator would tell you, "He's not home this afternoon, went to his cousion's funeral in Bullfalo. Try him Wednesday" or something like that. At night the operator had little to do so sometimes they would overlap shifts a bit and give each other home perms.

Later we got prefixes and I still remember mine: GReenleaf 1063. Now we have to remember our Social Security numbers, home, work and cell nunbers, computer passwords, all kinds of stuff. Life certainly has become more complex.

Oh-and there was a Stella Dallas re-make with Bette Midler playing the mother. I don't recall the title. A real tear jerker. Maybe too much so for modern audiences.

Did anybody read the original John O'Hara story that Butterfield 8 was based on? Same title. It lost a lot in translation to the film. Basically about a "girl" who never found her way in life, probably because nothing was expected of her except to snag a man and get married.So that fits into the MM story. Unfortunately, she snagged far too many men, lost her reputation and became null on the marriage market, which left no possible end to the story except her demise.Today she would have collected herself, gone to community college and become a court reporter or something. But in those times, promiscuous women (even if they were fictional characters) had to be punished.

flowerpower...
Thanks for mentioning Naomi Burns. The DVD I rented from Netflix had a Special Features 'Behind the Scenes' mention of her. How exciting it was that you met her!

I enjoyed your comment about the numbers in our life. Twenty-eight years of telephone company employment helped hone my ability to remember them, but actually you just develop better places to hide the papers you log them on. :)

GR-eenleaf...writing it down...

.....greytone.....Great thread and comments from everyone.

If you ever get the chance to catch a documentary called Complicated Women, narrated by Jane Fonda, I highly recommend it to enhance your cinema explorations.

Examining the mystique and freedom of the silver screen's leading ladies prior to the censorship imposed by the Hollywood Production Code of 1930.

Both the silent and "talkie" films, pre-1930, were and are astonishingly sophisticated and frank in their subject matter, and surprisingly unfettered in portraying issues like divorce, sex, infidelity, sexism, homosexuality, domestic abuse, emancipated women, etc.

The two times I put together a voting list for this thread, I would go back and see the other choices, and why, and decided not to dilute the direction of the thread with what suddenly felt like an unqualified vote. The knowledge base here is amazing, and I didn't want to miss out.

I first knew Barbara Stanwyck as Victoria Barkley before any of her other roles, and to this day I still think she was by far the most interesting character on The Big Valley.

I chose her (partially) because, in that role, she was really the first woman I'd ever seen who not only headed up a powerful dynasty, she was the first woman who seemed perfectly settled in her single independence, as opposed to a sheltered, uncompleted woman waiting endlessly for her other half.

She played a powerful woman who did it very well, and she had a lot of class. Plus she kicked some serious booty in that series! Some of the action scenes stand out for me because of her age at the time, and her strong spirit - made it seem ground-breaking somehow.

It wasn't until later on that I saw some (not all) of her other work, and realized what a good actor she was... I only mentioned Ball of Fire because it's the only comedic or musical role I'd seen her act, and seemed like a delightful departure from her (wonderful) serious dramatic films.

I've seen some of her movies mentioned here, and am really looking forward to seeing them with new eyes, as they come along, after reading all these comments.

[Is there a deadline on this thread? I've seen The Apartment more than once, but not in this context. Sorry to be behind, but there was a snafu, and I still don't have my copy.]

.....Oh, and, although America had been on the seven-digit dialing system for many years, my mother still habitually referred to our "489-" phone number as "Ivy 9" well into the late 70s!

Dry...
There's no specific length of time for each month's conversation. Originally, my thought was to converse the last full week of each month.....but, looking at how the Sundays fall, things could run into the first week of the next month, too.

I just have made a personal commitment to be here for two weeks of each month because I posted the thread and feel obligated to keep everyone on topic. Each thread seems to die its own natural death, and we'll just see how it goes...July '09 still seems so far away.

I hope all the movie buffs don't abandon me now; "Baby Face" (DVD) will be here tomorrow and I'll need someone to tell in the next few days!!

More "BUtterfield 8" related phone exhange memories:

"GRamercy 5" -- Artie Shaw, the legendary jazz clarinetist in the 40s and early 50s, performed with a group of musicians he named the "Gramercy Five" after his NYC phone exchange. (The Gramercy Park area of Manhattan is a prestigious residential location.)

I have a treasured ID tag that was once on my mother's key ring. It has "1936" imprinted on one side and her name, address, and phone number "Broadway 5131 W" on the other side. When dial phones came along, the number was changed to MIchigan 2479. (We lived in Ohio!)

There's a serious effort to record all the different telephone exchanges. I find the whole project interesting....: http://ourwebhome.com/TENP/TENproject.html

Hi, all:

This is absolutely the most fascinating thread! I think we have finally found a way to keep us both sane and involved until the next season.

Just a few very brief comments:

Stanwyck's voice was mesmerizing. And yes, Robert Taylor totally Broke. Her. Heart. I was her fan from the beginning to the end. One of my favorite movies of hers as a child was "Cry Wolf".

The Thorn Birds remains one of my favorite mini-series of all time. When I read the book, I pictured Father Ralph as dark- haired (ala Cliff Robertson) and Meggie as blonde. I was horrified at the casting until I saw the series and realized how perfect it actually was. So much for my casting career. As for the music, Henry Mancini is my favorite composer and he certainly outdid himself with this particular project.

It seems as though I spent most of my early life at the movies! We would go two or three evenings a week, and some Saturdays we would do a "double header". Fortunately, I had good grades so the activity was never a problem. We didn't have Sunday movies for decades.

Old phone numbers? In Harrisburg, PA, we had three exchanges -- ours was CEdar 2-2326 in the Uptown area, and there was KIngswood 5 in the Colonial Park area and WEbster 9 in the Steelton area. When someone would give you their number, you would know instantly the section in which they lived.

It has been wonderful to see my favorite posters here. A few "Personals":

Dry Manhattan: Where have you been?
wasthere: New Hope is one of my favorite places!
Greytone: Thanks, thanks, thanks!!!

Happy Thanksgiving to all my new pals.

My phone exchange when I lived in Linden, NJ
was HUnter 6.

Movie magazines like Photoplay and Modern Screen showed only the "goody goody" side of
actors. Then Confidential Magazine came along
and changed everything.

Sandy...
Your Hollywood gossip tidbits are soo juicy!....I didn't now Robert Taylor broke her heart! Did people know it back then? Did the NYC gossip columnists die out because the couldn't control the information? Fascinating!...I gotta hit the internet....
Question: Do you remember what happened to a phone number when the family moved from one side of the city to the other? I know later the family would be able to keep the same number, but I wonder what the phone company rules were then? I think our parents were the generation that found their spot in the world and tended to stay there. My mom had the same phone number for over 45 years!

wasthere...
Thanks for telling me the magazine names. I remember seeing Confidential at the beauty salon as a little girl. (We never got to go as children....my mother always did our hair at home.) I don't remember peeking inside the other ones or being where I could. Running an errand to the corner drugstore was my keyhole to a different world separate from the one where I lived. Still, we're all brought together through Mad Men....

Greytone, in the Harrisburg area you "lost" your number when you moved to another section. When I married in 1959 and moved just 12 miles away into the suburbs we were given the KI-5 combination.

I believe it was generally known at the time that Robert Taylor broke Barbara Stanwyck's heart. They remained good friends, and of course I believe she accepted that because it was better than nothing. It came as a shock to the public, too, because they had such stature as a couple.

Strangely enough, I have been trying to place whom Jon Hamm reminds me of, and it finally dawned on me that it is Robert Taylor! Hamm's features are not as finely chisled as Taylor's, but the dark good looks are certainly there, and there is a certain elegance of motion that is so similar and very, very appealing. Nobody looks better in a suit than our Jon!

Hi Greytone,
Thanks for your info on the phone numbers. How interesting! My family had aparty line for many years. Oh how that wouldn't go over today. My sister and I used to eaves drop in on our next door neighbor. He was a respected banker and town ... hmm yet he met many a young lady out of town for 'dinners'. His wife finally found out when he was involved in an auto accident. How Don Drapperish lol. I think he was married at least 4 times.

But because he was a 'respected banker' in town my parents thought so highly of him. Crazy.

I just lost a long, three paragraph post by my finger hitting some key and taking me to the log in page. When I logged in, my post was gone. How frustrating IS that?

I can't possibly do it again, so I just want to thank Greytone for the blog and board.

My previous post had to do with my love of Barbara S. and how that came to be. Love the Pre-Code era as well. I don't see any similarities to Trudy either.

I also am watching The Thorn Birds, and find her character, even though narcissistic and selfish, more compelling than I did when I saw it first in my early 30's.

Butterfield 8-very intriguing movie in some ways to me, but I can't go into all that now. It was not that GOOD of a movie, but
said a lot about the whole whore/angel contrast and limited roles of women in that era. And more importantly, limited perceptions of how men viewed them. (And-I thought Lawrence Harvey very sexy-he was quite the playboy in his day, leaving women in the dust!)

My prefix was HILLTOP!

And that is a very brief summary (just as well) of my previous post, with some MM comments as well.

Hope to see you all soon and continue to read all the intelligent and informative posts here.
Thanks again, Greytone.

Ok, I lost my original long multi-paragraph post by being taken to the log in board! Then I tried to repost a brief summary and introduction, and they told me I had tried to make too many posts in a short amount of time! Huh?

So, now I am just going to thank Greytone for the board and tell you how much I enjoyed the intelligent and informative comments here. I am not only a "Maddict", but also a serious classic film fan.

I see they posted my second post somehow! It was not there a moment ago. I am going to get some sleep! Maybe it is sleep deprivation.

You all are so interesting to read!

Oh, btw, my phone prefix growing up was SUNSET.

To all my fellow Maddicts making do (no MM!!!) with watching the 25 Year Anniversary showing of "The Thorn Birds"--- wow...last night was a burnin' epi, no?

Meggie standing there on the beach wondering who it was that got out of that cab, and then seeing it was Ralph...and him having to chase her down and then---hot hot hot. He sure found out what all the fuss was about, huh? Not to mention, RC looked hot out of that priest get-up and in the tropical cream, linen (?) suit.

Those two actors (Rachel Ward and Richard C.) sure had the chemistry!

Say, anyone know if TTB is the show where Rachel Ward and Bryan (forgot his last name--the one she married and had the baby girl with in TTB) first met? I know they met during some movie and then married...still married, I think.

About the Thorn Birds, Here is a little casting tidbit regarding Barbara S and the role of Mary Carson. Barbara S WASN'T the first choice pick AT ALL. No kidding, believe it or not AUDREY HEPBURN was the first choice pick for the Mary Carson role. Which I find FLABBERGASTING. Because when you watch TTB I get the feeling at least like Mary Carson's presence was MEANT to be felt THROUGHOUT the whole miniseries and not just the first 3 hours she was on screen.

YES TTB was the show where Rachel Ward and Bryan Brown met and later married each other. They have been married now for 25 YEARS and have 3 children. 2 girls 24 and 22 and a son who is 16 .

ADDIERAY, I love Audrey Hepburn, but I can't imagine her in the role of Mary Carson. BS was born for that role.

So cool about Bryan Brown and Rachel Ward...I was hoping they were still married. You can see their chemistry onscreen in TTB, can't you?

I just thought of something...if RC was in his 20's (?) during Dr. Kildare (made in the early 60's, I think) he must have been in his 40's during TTB (1983)...lookin' good, there, fella. IOW, He aged welll, no?

I notice in all of our comments on Barbara Stanwyck and "The Thorn Birds," we have neglected another very important actress also in TTB - Jean Simmons, who played Meggie's mother. She is a very talented actress with some great movies to her credit, among them "Spartacus" and a favorite of mine, "Angel Face," with Robert Mitchum.

.....Great posts about The Thorn Birds.... we were glued to that, among several others, at the time but I missed the replay just now. Bryan Brown and Rachel Ward might be the only happily married couple in the acting world!

Sandy: Hi! Happy Thanksgiving to you too. AMC sent me to the Dyckman-Campbell Rehab Facility for a raging case of Asperger's Syndrome. I sent for Chauncey for moral support, but then got word he is spending Thanksgiving at SCfan's place.

DJ: Hi - it's not you - you have to be signed in before composing a post (or copy, paste and compose it somewhere else until you do). After hitting "submit," go and get a martini or do the dishes, it takes that long.

zerelda: I loved Jean Simmons in The Robe with Richard Burton and Victor Mature.... is it true some people thought she was sort of a Liz Taylor look-a-like? Because to me they are very different, and JS stands completely on her own. I would never cast them in the same role.

As to Liz Taylor and BUtterfield 8, is that the Oscar acceptance speech she did in a very dramatic, thready whisper? That would be in line with your comment about her reason for winning... it's all about image and the big "spin," isn't? From "Hussy" and "Homewrecker" to "Joan of Arc"....

What is so interesting to me is that these people were very VERY young. Wasn't Liz Taylor like 19 when she married Mike Todd? Lindsay Lohan is like 19, isn't she? They were very young, but they were men and women, at that age, as well as behaving like ladies and gentlemen. Hollywood is a very different place today.

No, Dry Manhattan, as I recall, Ms. Taylor was in her twenties when she married Mike Todd. She married her first husband at 18 or 19, divorced him, married that English actor, Michael Wilding and had 2 children with him, and then married Mike Todd, with whom she had a daughter. On his death she was consoled by his so-called best friend, Eddie Fisher, who subsequently left his family to marry her in 1959. I believe she was all of 27 years old by then. Talk about a whirlwind life.....and to think she still had the Richard Burton years ahead of her.....

.....Of all the people in Hollywood, I feel like Liz Taylor is the one who can sing, "I did it my way..."

In the days before three stylists dressed you before leaving the house, the stars often dressed themselves, and somewhere in there, you probably know best, she took a definite left turn and began to "do her own thing," as it were. Some time, I believe, after she met Richard Burton and started matching him, drink for drink. Out came the caftans, the big hair and the heavy makeup and jewels.

She was often advised by various handlers and producers that this look or that look, in terms of fashion and makeup and hair, was not the best alternative, but she never cared and did what she wanted anyway.

No real idea what kind of human being she is, but the fact she is the original founder of AMFAR says something about her I guess.

.....zerelda.....Thanks for clearing that up. I've heard the stories, probably many times, but Miss Taylor was married so many times I can't keep it all straight.

My mother said, unlike some other leading ladies of the time [not using names] who slept with every one of their leading men, Liz Taylor didn't sleep around. She married every man she ever slept with!!

More fun facts regarding Barbara Stanwyck - she was born Ruby Stevens and married Spangler Arlington Brugh - what a doozy of a name - this was, in fact, Robert Taylor and when he divorced her, she got 15% of his earnings until he died. I have been reading a little bit about him, and he sounds like kind of a dim bulb who thought a lot of himself. She must have married him for his looks, is all I can say, 'cause it could not have been for his smarts, and then he turned around and dumped her, allegedly because he wanted a younger, more glamorous wife.

I'm a day late a dollar short - I thought the thread was starting this weekend, Nov. 29.

Great discussion! Sorry to be joining it late.

I watched Butterfield 8 again. My older sister had taken me to see when I was a kid - she always took me to the movies when she didn't have a date - and Liz Taylor was her absolute favorite.

People at that time, even if they weren't movie buffs, were very aware of Liz Taylor and Eddie Fisher. Their getting together made the newspapers, not just the gossip columns and fan magazines. Fisher was a HUGE star at that time. I remember he had his own TV show and his records were always on the hit list.

The movie was as awful as I remembered it. Everything was stiff - the writing, the staging and the acting. Eddie Fisher as an actor is a great singer as the old joke goes. Laurence Harvey, I now realize, is a C- actor. He was so good in The Manchurian Candidate because his acting style was robotic, just like that title character.

Regarding the BUtterfield 8 phone prefix, at the time the movie was made, there was concern about that because phone prefixes were no longer in common use - the book had been written 25 or 30 years prior - and the producers were concerned it would date the movie.

The Apartment is a great movie and I can't add anything to the comments above. I am a little surprised at the number of people who weren't aware of Fred MacMurray's early dramatic career, but I am a huge movie buff and sometimes forget that not everyone is. He and Barbara Stanwyck were great in Double Indemnity - I get tense everytime I watch that movie even though I know how it turns out.

Barbara S. was great in The Thorn Birds, which Lifetime is broadcasting this weekend for those of you haven't seen or don't remember that miniseries. She was the bright light of that series in my opinion. I never understood how Richard Chamberlain got that part - I read the book and the priest was a John Wayne physical type, not the stick person that Chamberlain was. Then, there is the lack of his acting ability. But, I digress.

I admired Barbara Stanwyck's characters. She, like Rosalind Russell, played strong independent women who didn't take guff - for the most part - and they dressed beautifully - and I still love their movies.

Zerelda, regarding the marriage of Barbara to Robert Taylor, I read that Mayer or Warner, whoever was the head of their studio, married them to each other for public relations. Robert Taylor was a homosexual, or "confirmed bachelor" as they called it in those days, and his indiscretion was causing problems for the studio, and the studio head believed Barbara Stanwyck was a lesbian (not sure if this was so), so he made them marry to give a cloak of respectability to their careers.

Robert Wagner recently announced in his book that he had had an affair with Barbara Stanwyck, so apparently the studio head was not completely accurate in his judgment of her.

chopin47.....
I take the blame for your confusion about the date...I apologize. I did state that we would discuss the last full week (Sun-Sat) of each month, and wanted to gather beginning on the same nite we were used to watching the episodes. I did not anticipate the number of months that ended with a Sunday or the upcoming holidays. Soooo....(are you tired of this story yet?) ;)...I will be here for both weeks, setting up the thread so everyone can come and go the last two weeks of each month...K?

Now, that said,...
I'm so glad you returned to post! My head was in some book while it seems a lot of people were watching movie screens! Love it! You were lucky you had a sister who didn't mind dragging you to the movies! Ah, for the days of cheap entertainment!...

I have noticed all the autobiographies out recently from the screen stars. Tony Curtis has written another one and was promoting it recently. He toddled up to the stage on The View, and in closing they showed the cover of his new book. He was quite a cutie pie! I see why he had as many tales to tell as the other pretty faces in Hollywood. I remember Eddie Fisher leaving Debby for Liz. She was a gorgeous violet-eyed young woman, yet was no different than women I knew in my community, making their own rules as they made their way through. As I've said before, my community was whispering about Otto Preminger and Dorothy Dandrige and Sidney Poitier.

Which is my point. Movies and 'real' life are mirror reflections in all enclaves of society, even as it is in the imaginary community of 'Mad Men.' I love to watch other people find their way through it all. It makes me whine less about my journey.

Thanks for participating...!

Let's see...I believe it went like this:

Elizabeth Taylor, Hilton, Wilding, Todd, Fisher, Burton, Burton, Warner, Fortensky.

Did I leave anyone out, or get anyone in the wrong order?

That gal was busy, for sure.

Off topic, but I remember a funny remark made by Zsa Zsa Gabor about her marriages. She said she was a very good housekeeper---everytime she got a divorce, she kept the house. lol

Also off topic, but kinda neat:

When Debbie Reynolds (who was taking care of Liz's kids for her while she grieved for Todd----AND consequently, while she was stealing/sleeping with Debbie's husband)---was called to the stand in divorce court and she said only, "My husband has fallen in love with another woman." and left the stand.

Pretty classy lady...and I understand she and Liz are pals now. I guess both mellowed.

Personally, I don't think I could get palsy with a woman who stole my husband, but, then again, a man has to want to get "stolen" or it can't happen, right?

Hey, Dry!

Yes, Chauncey did enjoy that leftover turkey! He wolfed it down and headed over to rozsie's and Rememberings places to see what they had for him! (Hide those cats!)

Keep an eye out for our boy, Chauncey...he's on the move!

Hi everyone!

What great stuff! I am still sharing computer time with my hubby and son, so I haven't been able to be on the MM site as often as I would like.

I am hoping Santa will bring me a new lap top. I can't believe how lost I am without MY OWN computer!! How selfish is that? And how strange, I never thought a computer would mean so much to me!
It reminds me of my pre-microwave days in the mid 1980's. I didn't realize how much I missed one until I got one!!

Anyway, thanks to my maddict friends greytone, and Gail Klein, the movie was "Stella Dallas"! What a classic, so was Barbara Stanwyck.

It' so funny, I just finished watching the 25th anniversary showing of "The Thorn Birds" this past week. BS was so good, so bitchy, in that role!

greytone, I can't wait for the December movie reviews!
SCfan, say woof to Chauncey for me!!

Gail Klein, I read about your Elisabeth Moss meeting on another thread, what a thrill!!

Hope all maddicts had a wonderful Thanksgiving Holiday!!

I enjoyed Jean Simmons in "Guys and Dolls."
And Roz Russell - fantastic in anything she did, especially "Picnic", "Front Page", "My Sister
Eilleen" "Gypsy" and "Auntie Mame". In fact I saw
her in Auntie Mame on the Broadway stage before
seeing the film. She made me laugh out loud in
most of her films.

Rosalind Russell - God, she is a huge favorite of mine. Loved her with Cary Grant - wish they had done more movies together.

Last night I watched "The Postman Always Rings Twice" with John Garfield and Lana Turner. I have never been a Lana Turner fan - I think she was highly over rated as an actress - she was nice to look at, but that is all.

.....In researching whether the original cut of Baby Face is available, I came across this interesting page about the changes.

http://archive.sensesofcinema.com/contents/cteq/05/37/baby_face.html

I read about the controversy surrounding the film before I ordered the DVD from Netflix (it hasn't arrived yet).

I thought it was so interesting that BS was involved in such a controversy early in her career. I like that your article had a picture of her (blonde, no less) in the role. I've heard about the role (initially from our resident PhD) on the TMC website, including what changes had to be made before its release. They'll probably find the original film stored in some vault before we pass away. (It's probably mild footage compared to what we see on the screen today.)

Thanx for your post....

.....Here are a couple of links regarding the possible upcoming SAG strike relating to internet royalties.....

http://www.sltrib.com/columnists/ci_11080105

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=az1fKhe_lEA4&refer=muse

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/the_big_picture/2008/11/sag-stars-in-ne.html

.....One thing AMC could have done is to schedule some of the many movies mentioned in the Mad Men series, if they are in fact in the AMC library.

For instance, I just watched How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying (with Robert Morse) on TCM the other day, which seemed ironic.

The point of AMC giving Mad Men a home as original programming was to bring viewers to the network, hoping they will be drawn in by the movie library as well, and stay.

The natural extension of that, especially during this break, would have been to present some of those movies, as opposed to the interested Mad Men viewers having to catch them on TCM or another channel, join Netflix or get the movies some other way.

Perpetuating ongoing interest in that line of discussion among Mad Men fans can only help the network, and might have more participation save the extra effort during a tight economy.

I had to get "Stella Dallas" at my library. Wow great movie. I read a biography on Gary Cooper who is one of my fav actors and it said he and BS fooled around a little bit on the movie set of a "Ball of fire" Of course who could resist his boyish charm. He was so tall and handsome.

Can't wait to dish on Loretta Young next month. (hmm Clark Gable, baby out of wedlock aka Peggy) I will be watching one of my fav Christmas movies: "The Bishop's Wife"

Sorry Greytone couldn't resist.

.....AMC airs Man in the Grey Flannel Suit on December 30, so late-comers for December's discussion can still catch it then.

Hi SCFan and everyone. Yes, Chauncey did stop by for Thanksgiving. I made Cornish hens for my son and I with a kind of BBQ sauce - saved one for Chauncey without the sauce and no bones,. of course. He enjoyed the plain baked sweet potato, too, but he passed on the fruit salad and brocolli, rice and cheese casserole. Since the weather here turned rainy and cold he's headed farther (further ?) south to a warmer climate - I packed a couple of sandwiches and doggie biscuits for him. Said he'd head back up North around June or July.

The cats headed upstairs as soon as they saw him and he was just a little put out that they wouldn't visit with him. He looked mah-vah-lous!

Note to scfan - since I live in South Carolina I always think that's what the "sc" stands for. lol

Sunday nights have been very dull and boring without MM. I know we all hope (and even pray) that everything works out so we'll be able to have a Season Three.

On another note, it has always amazed me how un-tall the movie stars were/are - male and female. But when you saw them in the movies they were always dressed so well - padded shoulders, well tailored suits, etc., so, it was really hard to tell what their real height was - except John Wayne and Gregory Peck who seemed to tower over everyone. I guess "tall" is relative - I was 5' 11" when I was thirteen, so most everyone else seemed short. lol

Here's some tidbits from the IMDB site about BS:

Her stormy marriage to Frank Fay finally ended after a drunken brawl, during which he tossed their adopted son, Dion, into the swimming pool. Despite rumours of affairs with Marlene Dietrich and Joan Crawford, Stanwyck wed Robert Taylor, who had gay rumours of his own to dispel. Their marriage started off on a sour note when his possessive mother demanded he spend his wedding night with her rather than with Barbara.

In 1985, her house was destroyed in a fire. She was upset to lose all of Robert Taylor's love letters.

http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0001766/bio

A fascinating woman!

Wow!!!
I made time to watch Barbara Stanwyck's performance in Baby Face (1933), and it was well worth every minute. Surprisingly, the DVD I got (from Netflix) was part of the "Forbidden Hollywood Collection" which contained both the uncensored version and the theatrical release. I watched both, and preferred the uncensored version.

The storyline was certainly cutting-edge for its era, and I can fully understand why the censors had such a problem with it. It was too important to continue to control women's behavior morally, and I understand how the few changes made turned the story to one which women of the day would be reluctant to emulate. David Zanuck came up with the idea for the original story, but felt he had to use an alias and have others develop the screenplay. I wonder how much the young Barbara Stanwyck believed in the dialogue created for her character. The only influential character in Lily's life (the cobbler, Adolf Cragg) told her to, "...use men to get what you want in life!" I think both she and Lily took the advice to heart.

I now realize my favorite era for costume design is the 30's-40's. The clothing of the film was wonderful! The biting foxes draped over her shoulders, the flowing satin gowns and office attire were all something I would die to own today. I am a seamstress, and was sketching and making mental notes throughout the film. The Oscar winning costume designer, Orry-Kelly (John Orry Kelly), did a superb job on this, one of his earliest jobs, and went on to be recognized for his talent.

It was such a surprise to see a young John Wayne in the film as one of Lily's admirers (He was the first to call her 'Baby Face' in the film). I also loved the important part her constant companion "Chico" played in the film. The actress playing the part was Theresa Harris, and was a very talented supporting character actress known for stealing scenes from many of the Hollywood stars she appeared with.

Stanwyck's performance was well worth the time I invested in multiple viewings. Thanks to all who continue to suggest gems like this. It helps me understand the mindset of our Mad Men family of characters and enriches my understanding of early Hollywood.

See you all for more conversation next month!

.....Wow is right, if you got your hands on the uncensored print. That's what I was trying to find out. They made just a few changes, largely in dialogue, but it changed the entire message of the movie.

Also, the flowing, luxurious (and rather un-politically-correct) fashions, pre-1930s Production Code, verged on being positively scandalous.

If you check out movies starring glamourous studio stars in pictures around that time, like Carole Lombard, Greta Garbo and Marlene Dietrich, it's hard to tell if they're even wearing a single foundation garment under those gorgeous silk gowns.

GT, your mention of the foxes just kept taking me back to Roger Sterling's comment, "I don't know whose eyes to look at!"

As to BS and her temperment resembling her art - kind of sounds like.

The tidbits posted here sorta blew my wig off - I've been a fan for years, thought I had a decent handle on the topics of the day. Evidently, I had no idea!

This is a cool thread, greytone.... thanks for getting us all to do a little "stretching!"

HI All
Just logged on to this thread and will now definately tune in to The Day the Earth Stood Still just so I can be part of the conversation... Sci Fi does not appeal to me so I would not have bothered, even to see Jon Hamm stretch his chops.. Grey Flannel Suit will be much more fun to see again now that I know you'll all be watching with me...

Last night I watched "The Pink Panther" from 1964 - had two links to Barbara Stanwyck, namely Robert Wagner, her boytoy, according to his recent memoir, and Capucine, who was Barbara's supposed love interest in "A Walk on the Wild Side." I remember I loved "The Pink Panther" when I first saw it all those years ago, but I was not really all that taken with it on seeing it again. Can't quite put my finger on why, but just know I probably won't ever go out of my way to see it again. Maybe 'cause the plot was not all that great, and it seemed to rely too much on Peter Sellers' doing his thing, which got a little bit tiresome after awhile. I hate it when an old favorite does not hold up when finally viewed again.

Hey there, rozsie! I am sure South Carolina is gorgeous from all I've heard, but my "SC" stands for Sterling Cooper! But, you already knew that...

and yeah, the "stars" were a lot of shorties, I guess, compared to what they looked like on that huge Silver Screen! I recall hearing/reading once that they made the doors and stuff shorter for some of the smaller stars (Alan Ladd, etc.) so they'd look taller in scenes.

Does anyone know if it's true that they made his (A.L.'s) leading ladies stand in ditches when doing scenes with him?

If anybody wonders why Barbara Stanwyck had her little fling with RW, go to YouTube and type in Robert Wagner What a Man and your doubts will be erased...and then you will need to pour a pitcher of ice water over your head.

What a man indeed!

I heard many years ago that Alan Ladd had to stand on boxes, rather than the gals standing in ditches, and that his scenes were mostly shot above the knees because of that reason. Of course, his face was so handsome that you didn't give a second thought to all the close-ups!

Sandy: My father looked like Alan Ladd, but he
was somewhat taller and more muscular. When I
was a teenager my girlfriends all had a crush on him.

SCfan, Sandy....
I heard they do this in all Tom Cruise's movies...
Never knew he was shortcake until he got away from the set.

But, all theater (including movie theater) is illusion...isn't it? smile

.....I heard that many actors are surprisingly small and even read somewhere that that isn't entirely unintentional (using smaller stars on screen). For instance, apparently Sly Stallone is really around 5'6", but lies about it in his bios.

I once literally ran into Sandra Bullock on a plane, and couldn't believe, first of all, how incredibly pretty she was and, secondly, that she was TINY, like a little doll!

Her skin was incredible and for whatever reason, I was completely struck by her amazing bone structure. To this day I don't think I've seen more perfect, porcelain skin on any woman.

She must have thought it was pretty funny when I came eye to eye with her, since I instantly froze solid for a good five seconds (count it out - it's a looong time!), before politely dropping my eyes and moving on. She froze because I froze, and we just stood there looking at each other. Still makes me laugh.

I saw Eartha Kitt at the San Francisco airport
and she was unbelievably short. She was also
combative with the desk clerk.

I looked up some of my favorite female movie stars heights at least a year ago. I was happy to see, given that I am a smidge under 5'2, that many were in my height range. As women have gotten taller in the past 50 years or so, I am more aware of being "short". I never thought of it as something to dislike about myself, or something that stood out, until bring very tall become, culturally, and in the celluloid world, something that added to women's sexual appeal.

So it is nice to see some of our classic film stars were petite in height!

Hey, wasthere:

Eartha Kitt combative with the desk clerk? No surprise here! This is the same scamp who told First Lady "Lady Bird" Johnson off in the formal greeting line of Lady Bird's own house!!! I have hated her ever since. What lack of class! She invented the word "attitude". Even hearing her sing "Santa Baby" during the Christmas season makes me boil.

Sandy, as I understand the story, Ms. Kitt was at the White House to participate in a luncheon discussion of juvenile delinquency in America. When asked to speak she offered her opinion that the Viet Nam War was having a significant and damaging impact on the youth of America and asked why President Johnson was allowing the war to continue, thereby killing America's sons. At no time did she tell Mrs. Johnson off, and even though the Johnsons may have been living there at the time, the White House belongs to the American people and cannot be considered Mrs. Johnson's "own house." If, as I understand it, Mrs. Johnson was upset to the point of tears by Ms. Kitt's remarks, I doubt that was Ms. Kitt's intention. I believe Ms. Kitt simply chose that opportunity to voice her objections to the war as so many people were doing at that time.

The 60s must have been an enormously empowering time for some people. If you look at Eartha Kitt's early life and struggles, it is understandable why this tiny woman might decide to speak her mind and to heck with other people's opinions of what is right and proper.

I thank you for responding in a way that gave weight to the alternate view of the event Sandy mentioned. If Man Men has shown us anything, it is certainly that each person is on a unique journey, and the external is not necessarily reflecting the interior (or truth).

I sat for quite a time wondering what was going on in Eartha Kitt's life (her biography is noteworthy), and wondered had the media put a spin on the event as the public heard it. I was surprised that the event would affect someone's attitude toward her music (an acquired taste, even for her fans) and prevent them from looking further than the emotion. I had decided to give Eartha the benefit and excuse her for a bad day. (Betty did slap her friend in the grocery store without concern for where she was...)

I decided not to respond to Sandy's post (Sandy,...no offense...and you are certainly entitled to your opinion)... out of a fear of being misunderstood or flamed....

Thank you zerelda....You stated the alternate view so much better than I could....

Whew! I'm just catching up!

Wellll..... I actually can't stand Barbara Stanwyck OR Eartha Kitt. Something about both of them - a hardness, perhaps, that I just can't warm up to. There's nothing endearing about either one of them. I sort of feel that way about Lana Turner too, except in "Imitation of Life", and Suzanne Pleshette. Nothing special to look at, and hard as nails. Ick.

.....Re: Eartha Kitt, I did some quick research and evidently she also raised money, herself, to fight apartheid in South Africa, and spent quite a lot of personal time on the cause. I wasn't there, but I'm guessing celebrity activism wasn't the trendy PR-generating endeavor that it is today and she may have been a minority, or alone, in that.

That was a different time, and since outspokenness wasn't the accepted norm, Miss Kitt unfortunately paid for it with her American career. I suppose if she had simply made the statement to the press, rather than at a White House formal function, it might have been perceived differently.

Probably the closest thing we have today, in terms of consequential severity, would be the Dixie Chicks slamming George Bush for the Iraqi war. I think they are still taking heat for that one, even though the nation mostly now agrees with them.

Sorry for digressing.

.....I wish I could tell you all the myriad things my mother really said about the Hollywood stars and starlets.

She was bawdy and very funny, but definitely not politically correct.

Spill, Dry Manhattan! We are all dying to hear and you are dying to tell us......'sides, we all got troubles (not the least of which are the withdrawal symptoms from our Mad Men addictions), and your stories will take our minds off of'em.

Hey!....guess what? We've chatted on this thread long enough to have actually bridged time for almost the entire month! Thanks, everyone! Congratulations to those whose comments brought highlights in Clayton's blog!

As the holidays rapidly approach, I've just noticed the new thread for December's discussion goes up a week from Sunday (21Dec). (Even if you're too busy to stop by, the new thread will be there.) I wanted to remind everyone the movies under discussion will be "The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit" and "The Day the Earth Stood Still" (Note to Self: Go see "The Day the Earth Stood Still" with Jon Hamm opening Friday (12Dec)) Oh yes, ...and the actress under discussion will be Loretta Young.

Happy Holidays!

yeah, Dry...we want to hear all the non-P.C. bawdiness your mom had to say...pleeeeeaaaaase! ????

Get to dishin' ASAP!!

Gotta go make some Christmas cookies and fudge.

Everyone should post their fave cookie and candy recipes!

I usually just make Toll House (can't really be beat, let's face it) and fudge. Some years I make gingerbread cookies, too.

Love to all.....

Thanks, Greytone, for the reminder of the next movies. I have really enjoyed this thread, so I will be visiting the Dec. 21st thread with bells on!

SCfan, fudge is a tradition at my house, too. The cookies vary, although I almost always make my favorite raspberry bars and a recipe called Sugarplum Loaves. This year, 'cause we are missing our mother, I have been thinking of trying to replicate her world famous (in our family, anyway) bourbon balls. I know my sailor brother would love to taste them again - she used to send them to him during the holidays when he was still in the Navy, and he always said the fumes from the bourbon would attract every sailor for miles around!

I wonder, if I do the bourbon balls, do you think Drink&Smoke will show up on my doorstep on Christmas Eve?

Oh man, this discussion about Christmas cookies brings a funny memory. YEARS ago, my girlfriends and I would have "Christmas cookie baking night" each year. We'd take turns at different houses and each were responsible for 3-4 types of cookies and would bring whatever ingredients we needed, then get to work. Well one year, we were at a home with a full kitchen in the bsmt in addition to the regular one, we had double oven capacity. PLUS, we were imbibing on coke (not the soft drink) and baked all night long! When we counted the cookies the next day, there were 84 dozen cookies! Bwahhh...!!! (OK no judgements please... it was the '80s). There were so many cookies, we had nowhere left to put them. Every tabletop, shelf, mantle, and floor space was filled with boxes and boxes of cookies. Man, what a memory.

Just noticed "The Bishop's Wife," with Loretta Young, David Niven, and Cary Grant, is on TCM tonight. Just might have to watch it (if I can stay awake that long), as Greytone says she is the subject of the next movie discussion thread. Of course, I will be watching because of Cary Grant....o.k., maybe a little because of David Niven.

Mr. Niven wrote a couple of excellent books on his life in the movie business. His first wife died tragically while playing a game of hide and seek in the dark in Tyrone Power's house in Hollywood. She fell down some stairs when she opened a door she thought was to a closet.

Hello, all, especially Zerelda, Greytone and Dry Manhattan:

I am sorry for having offended. I can assure you that my opinion of Eartha Kitt's actions so many years ago was based only on a (perhaps unfairly) sense of propriety. I know that the White House is the people's house, but I thought that the President and First Lady would be regarded as "host" and "hostess" when you were in it. Mea culpa!

Thank you, Dry, for saying similar thoughts better than I:
"That was a different time, and since outspokenness wasn't the accepted norm, Miss Kitt unfortunately paid for it with her American career. I suppose if she had simply made the statement to the press, rather than at a White House formal function, it might have been perceived differently."

With that, I hope we can put it to rest and that my posting pals will forgive me. And in the future, when I hear her sing "Santa Baby", I won't say, "Beat it, Eartha", but "Hello, Maddicts!"

I wasn't offended in the least, Sandy, and I look forward to reading many more posts from you in the future and discussing all manner of interesting subjects. We ARE Maddicts, and there is no subject we can't hash out among ourselves and have a great good time doing it.

I just finished watching "The Bishop's Wife"....I will be dog tired tomorrow, but watching Cary Grant as he was in 1947 was worth it. He truly was the most utterly divine man to ever grace the movie screen.

.....Sandy.....No worries - you are possibly the least offensive person I can think of.....

From what I read, Miss Kitt's views were passionate, and her comments were not out of step with public sentiment, at least of the younger generation. The mistake was making the comments in the White House, at a conservative ladies' luncheon.

Because of that, the government hounded and vilified Miss Kitt, in a similar manner as many other outspoken celebrities like John Lennon, for example. Liberalism was sometimes a punishable offense.

I didn't know anything about it until I did the research, and was quite interested to learn of Miss Kitt's activism, and some other interesting details.

She was my favorite Catwoman on Batman. Purrrrrrfect!

.....The Day the Earth Stood Still is playing tonight on AMC at 8:00 pm.

The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit is playing on December 30 at 3:45 am....(set your DVRs!)

Just read a scathing review of the new version of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" - Jon Hamm was not mentioned, but the reviewer pretty much loathed the movie, Keanu Reeves in particular. I will watch the original tonight as I was always a fan of Michael Rennie.

Looking forward to "The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit" 'cause I like Gregory Peck, too, but was never a big fan of Jennifer Jones - too icky, icky, goody, goody, "ooooooh, I'm soooooo delicate and beautiful, aren't you just amazed by the sheer perfection of me?" I usually watch her movies with Joseph Cotton, however, as he is a big favorite of mine - he always reminds me of a dear cousin from St. Louis who died many years ago - just a delightful man, and the spitting image of Joseph Cotton - both named Joe, and even their voices were similar.

"Confessions of a Sex Kitten," Kitt's autobiography is a compelling, life-affirming story of survival and well worth the read (or listen...it's available on audio, too). (DJ...I think all 'short' people have a tendency to be feisty in order to survive, don't you think?)

I've not seen "The Day..." before, so I may just see the new version first so I won't be so prone to look for a 'newer version.' I don't know which critic panned Hamm's version, but there are very few critics whose taste tracks true to mine. Being such a movie novice, I may find both versions great. Thanx to all (Sandy..Dry, z, SCfan...) for the 'heads up' for our upcoming viewing pleasure. The discussions here are always great....hate to say it...but, it almost feels like it did back in Season 2 week 3, doesn't it? :)

.....Did everyone see the Golden Globe nominations story on the Blog?

- Mad Men - Best Television Series Drama

- John Hamm - Best Performance by an Actor in a TV Series Drama

- January Jones - for Best Performance by an Actress in a TV Series Drama

Revolutionary Road also got a Best Picture nom.

.....Damn, make that "Jon" Hamm.

Hey Laurie...hope you guys froze some of those "coke inspired" cookies!

No "judgement" here...funny story....

Since you all were cooking with a "secret" ingredient...wonder if any of made it into the cookies??? lol

meant to type:

"wonder if any of IT made it into the cookies"...my fingers get ahead of my brain...which ain't hard to do.

z, Gawd I love Bourbon Balls...now that you've brought them up, I'll have to make some of those too!

If I remember correctly (have to find my recipe!) they are no cook, right?

SCFan: BOURBON BALLS:
1 cup fine vanilla wafer crumbs
1 cup finely chopped pecans
1 cup confectioners' sugar
2 tablespoons unsweetened cocoa powder
1/4 cup bourbon
1 tablespoons plus 1 1/2 teaspoons light corn syrup
confectioners' sugar, sifted
Preparation:
Thoroughly combine 1 crushed vanilla wafer crumbs, chopped pecans, 1 cup confectioners' sugar, and the cocoa. In a separate bowl, blend the bourbon and corn syrup. Stir this bourbon mixture into the dry mixture; blend well. Cover and chill for at least a few hours. Sift about 1/2 to 1 cup of confectioners' sugar on a cookie sheet. Shape small bits of the dough into balls and roll them in the confectioners'. Store in refrigerator in tightly covered containers. Make these a few days in advance for best flavor, and roll in confectioners' sugar again before serving, if desired. These can also be frozen for longer storage.
Makes about 3 dozen bourbon balls.

SCFan: And NO, none of THAT stuff got in the cookies. What a waste! . :)

1/4 cup of bourbon? Doesn't seem like enough for 3 dozen, does it?

LaurieB, you are right, 1/4 cup of bourbon doesn't seem like enough - at least not from the way Mom's bourbon balls turned out. My sister has the old metal Christmas box she always used to store them in, and she says when she opens it, the smell of bourbon is still there.

Oooh, an idea! I think for the Golden Globes, I will make a batch using rum and call them "Freddy Rumsen Balls" - every time Mad Men wins, I'll eat a couple in celebration!

My sister makes rum balls on the holidays. I
think it's the same recipe, but she uses rum vs.
bourbon.

Watched a little bit of "Laura" tonight, with Gene Tierney, Dana Andrews, and Clifton Webb. Great movie, with wonderful music and terrific plot. I've seen this movie so many times, and I even have a very old, yellowed, falling apart paperback of the novel by Vera Caspary which is even better than the movie. Oh, and Vincent Price plays Laura's boyfriend. Hard to picture him as boyfriend material in his early films after watching all his horror movies, but he was often cast in that role.

Clifton Webb, of course, plays his usual stuffed shirt role of snooty superiority over everyone else. Not my idea of romantic leading man material at all, but somehow he was often cast in that role. As a matter of fact, he played Barbara Stanwyck's husband in "A Night to Remember" - not, as we Maddicts would expect, a story of the after effects of an evening with Jimmie and Bobbie Barrett, but actually about the sinking of the Titanic. Although, now I come to think about it, the same thread of marital infidelity ran through both storylines.

Gene Tierney was another interesting actress with a very sad life. It is said that Agatha Christie based her mystery "The Mirror Cracked" on the tragic story of the birth of Tierney's first child with Oleg Cassini. The story was widely publicised, and I have always wondered if the woman in question ever recognised herself and felt remorse for her actions.

Too funny LaurieB. I remember the 80' and I will neither admit or deny anthing I did. Zerelda very good insight into Eartha Kitt. And good for Ms. Kitt to speak her mind. I have read somewhere that Mrs. Johnson made money off the Vietnam war. Zerelda could you comment on that? Any truth to that? I like Eartha Kitt's music. Another good one I discovered recently is Nina Simone. Ialso wish Patsy Cline didn't die so young imagine the great songs she didn't get a chance to make.
On the height of actors. I tend to like the tall ones Like Gary Cooper, Jimmy Stewart, Liam Neesom. I saw Dick Cheney in person, very short. Not surprising. I will be watching "The Bishop's Wife this weekend. Good night all and Sandy keep your opinions to yourself.... Just kidding!!!! :-) It's all good.

Gene Tierney was one of my favorites, especially in "Leave Her to Heaven." I read where she was in love with JFK but his father wouldn't let him marry her because she was an actress. I believe she had a tragic life including a nervous breakdown.

I also loved Jennifer Jones in films and did not find her to be goody-goody like Zerelda thinks. I enjoyed her in "Ruby Gentry" and "Duel in the Sun." When she divorced Robert Walker to marry David Selznik her lifestyle changed dramatically and she became very extravagant, i.e. changing her clothes several times at parties, then getting rid of them. I believe Walker was an alcoholic, but his life really spiraled down after she left him.

Miscellaneous comments on cookies, “The Thorn Birds,” Barbara Stanwyck, and Eartha Kitt

“Emergency” cookies (made when oven is broken and grade-school event is about to take place). Two ingredients: Chun King Chinese noodles (canned) and Baker’s chocolate squares for baking. Crumble noodles slightly, melt chocolate, gently mix noodles and chocolate. Drop on cookie sheet in bite-size blobs to solidify. Serve at school on pretty party plate. Breathe a sigh of relief.

“The Thorn Birds”
I missed the 25-year anniversary replay that some of you discussed. You all seemed to enjoy it a lot, so I picked up the DVD at my local library this week. I had forgotten what a powerful film it is. The pageantry and color of the church ceremonies are breathtaking. I studied Latin in high school, and I loved the chanting.

Our actress-of-the month, Barbara Stanwyck, is wonderful in the part of Mary Carson. (Would we call her a cougar today?) I always thought Stanwyck's low, gruff voice was different and distinctive.

Eartha Kitt: I’ve liked Eartha Kitt since I first heard her sing, “C’est si bon.” She is entitled to her opinions; I admire her as an artist. Who else could sing “Santa Baby” like she does? I look forward to hearing it every year

Eagerly awaiting December 21 and the start of the new thread. Happy Holidays to everyone and especially to you, Greytone, for starting this entertaining discussion group.

Zerelda: You crack me up! Freddie Rumson Balls.... ha!!

I'm going to take alot of crap from some of you for my opinion, but I am sick to death of Hollywood entertainers using the stage and media as a bully-pulpit to air their OPINIONS on politics and world events. I'm one person who wishes they'd stick to acting/singing/whatever they do. You know, you've got Brad Pitt out there working in New Orleans, building, doing things, not standing in front of cameras, ala Susan Sarandon and Timothy Robbins, spouting off their oft-misinformed diatribe. Just because they're famous and have access to media, which us mere mortals do not, does not make their opinions any more important, or correct.

You won't hear any flak from me, LaurieB., as I, too, get a little tired of listening to them. I am not saying they should never voice an opinion, but do it in an appropriate setting, for Pete's sake. They should also remember that actions speak louder than words, and Brad Pitt, as you noted, Angelina Jolie, and the late Audrey Hepburn are perfect examples of that old adage. On stage at the Oscars or the red carpet premier of your latest movie is not the appropriate place, in my opinion.

.....Gene Tierney is one of my very favorite actresses, and Laura is one of the top 10 movies of all time for me. It's one of the few movies I've actually bothered to own.

I've seen the movie quite a few times, and never seem to get over cringing over Waldo's uncomfortably inappropriate possessiveness and obsession with Laura, and the fact that there are two generations between them.

I knew Gene Tierney had an unhappy life and tragic ending, but I didn't know all the other tidbits. Those aren't something you can get just anywhere, and I'm enjoying all of the contributions here.

.....By the way, I came across this site whereby you can watch any episode of Mad Men, Seasons 1 and 2, for free on line..... http://www.madmenepisodes.com/

.....I haven't tried the site yet, so don't know how well it works, but one tip I saw said if you view one episode, you have to wait a couple of hours before trying to view another one, or you will get halfway through that, be shut off, and prompted to subscribe.

At least those who want to see Season 2 again won't have to wait until July....(providing it works....)

I always loved the theme music from "Laura" - so beautiful. It is rare, indeed, to find a movie these days where you go away humming the music.

Van Johnson died today. So sad to say goodbye to another screen legend. He was in some very good movies - I especially loved him in "Brigadoon" and even more so in "The Last Time I Saw Paris." I am trying to remember if he is the actor who always wore red socks in his personal life.

Couldn' agree more LaurieB about Susan Sarandon. I think it's great to be an activist but she is so pompous. I do agree with some of her views but not her delivery. She's so condescending. Would she be considered a cougar?

Well, I leave my fellow Maddicts alone for a couple of days and find we have gone from Barbara Stanwyck to cookies! That's why I love this thread!

One comment to "remembering", about the quick cookies - you could also use those butterscotch morsels instead of chocolate. Just melt and mix...yummy.

I'm so looking forward to the new discussion on Loretta Young and the two movies.

I promised my grandsons I'd take them to see the new Day the Earth Stood Still during their Christmas vacation. I saw Jon Hamm on Ellen DeGeneris (sp) today...he was very relaxed and funny. BUT he only got about five minutes and that was too short a time. He talked more about Mad Men than the new movie, so I hope it does stay around for a few weeks, at least.

You all take care and don't be too liberal with those "secret" ingredients! See you soon.

Laurie B I think your more in the majority than you'd guess. Why Hollywwod thinks we need their opinion about causes or who to vote for is beyond me.
I'm looking forward to the Day the Earth stood still with Jon Hamm .Sounds like they are putting more emphasis on all the worries of the world more so than the first one.
Chelsea, Susan Sarandon is 62 and TIm Robbins is 50. I think 20 year age difference is more cougar style, this is more like Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell. I don't think either one of these couples ever got married.

Hello all:

Back to the bourbon balls!

In the latest issue of "In Style", there is a several-page article containing an interview with Jon Hamm, and he said that bourbon is his favorite drink, with "Maker's Mark" being his favorite brand.

When I make my "balls" next week, I'm going to use Maker's Mark so they will be.... "Maddict-Appropriate". I could go the way of Alec Baldwin's sketch on Saturday Night Live, but I'd better not!

Well then, it is official - Jon Hamm Bourbon Balls and Freddy Rumsen Rum Balls - the official Christmas treats of Sterling Cooper, where you'll always find the best balls on Madison Avenue.

oooh Sandy yeah the scwheaty (sp?) balls of Alec Baldwin has to be one of my all time favorite SNL skits. Wonder if that is why Kim Basinger left him. I think Alec is so funny on 30 Rock.

Yes, Chelsea...how everyone kept a straight face during the Schweaty Balls segment (and it was live!!) is beyond me...soooooo funny.

zerelda, I think you're right about Van Johnson (always thought he was sooooo boyishly cute) being the "actor who always wore red socks".

I saw him and Judy Garland in "In The Good Old Summertime" the other night...why they named it that (it's about Christmas almost all the way through!) I do not know.

Thanks, Laurie and Remembering and rozsie, for the great recipes! I wrote them out on recipe cards and appreciate it so much. They are going in my cookies file.

Also, I couldn't agree more about the lippy, know-it-all celebs who think they can tell us all how to think, vote, etc. I HATE it when they do that...I just want to wring their pompous necks! Ahhh that felt good...(to vent)

I think Tom Selleck said it best a few years back (1995, I think) when asked about being a "quiet conservative among loud liberals"---------

He said celebrities (such as Barbra Streisand, he happened to single out at the time) should stop grandstanding their liberal views-----"I like Barbra a lot, but she should shut up,"

That's putting it in a nutshell. By the way, Tom Selleck is a hottie, too, I think, not to mention a class act.

Going back a few posts to Zerelda's and Dry Manhattan's comments about the film "Laura."

I saw "Laura" when it was first released. I was a teenager and was completely overcome by Gene Tierney's beauty, the theme music, and the acting. At the time I adored Dana Andrews, who plays the detective investigating the "murder" of Laura and falls in love with her while doing so. He was my ideal man and a real "heart throb," as we said in 1944.

Back to cookies, thanks Rozsie, for your suggestion of butterscotch morsels instead of chocolate. Sounds delicious. I'll definitely try them the next time my oven breaks down! I think my daughter is pulling my leg, but she has suggested adding shredded coconut. I don't know about that. These "emergency" cookies are not supposed to be macaroons.

Remembering, I so agree about Dana Andrews. I esp.loved him in "The Best Years of Our Lives".

I remember thinking I didn't blame Teresa Wright one bit for flipping for him, even if he did have to wait for his trampy first wife (Virginia Mayo) to divorce him (in order to be able to get past Fredric March (her dad) to marry her !!!!

Love so many scenes in that movie. One of the all-time best ever to come out of post WWII Hollywood.

.....I know it's not the case, but I was convinced the inventor of the Barbie Doll based her features on Gene Tierney. Loved her in the film Leave Her to Heaven, which also cast Vincent Price.

And I agree, Remembering, that the music from Laurais one of the top ten most memorable themes.

On another note, I heard that the late Van Johnson (R.I.P.) got that deep horizontal forehead scar in a terrible motorcycle accident, and the mark was from the helmet cutting into his head.

Don't get me started on cookies. I've seen some "old friends" mentioned, but Remembering reminded me of the easy-to-make "Haystacks."

Hi Dry! I believe I read that Van J. got his forehead scar in a car accident. Seems they had to put the top of his head back on! (IMDB info)

I agree about Gene T.---she was sooooo great in Leave Her To Heaven (Jeanne Crain excellent as her sis,also in it)

The way she just sat in that boat staring down into the lake with absolutely no emotion at all when Cornell Wilde's bro. was drowning! What an actress.

I just saw Laura tonight and it was great, but what the hell was she thinking with those hats??! It looked like she had on a wide brimmed hat and then someone dumped a bucket of water over her head.
I guess she was with Oleg C. by then and he talked her into those, huh?

zerelda, you mentioned above about the tragic birth of Gene T.'s child with Oleg C....what was the story on that?

I knew she was with Oleg but never heard/read about a child. Did the baby have an accident or fatal disease or something? How awful...

SCfan, Zerelda may have more on this, but as I recall, Gene Tierney had German measles when she was pregnant and passed it on to her baby. The baby, Daria, was born mentally retarded, deaf, and almost blind. I think she was institutionalized for the rest of her life. Gene Tierney never recovered from this tragedy. Who could?

Apparently a fan had unwittingly passed the germ on to Gene when she was pregnant.

.....Reading all these backstories and commentary has been causing me to be curious and do a little quick research into the various stars and incidents each time they are mentioned here.

What was remarkable about the findings is how full of dastardly intrigue and volatile secrets the Hollywood lives really were. The actors' personal stories are every bit as dramatic, if not more, than their screen lives.

For instance, in researching Oleg Cassini (who I knew to have had an affair, etc., with Grace Kelly), I not only found the back story drama about his marriage to Gene Tierney, but other surprising facts about Grace Kelly. "Wiki" Grace Kelly and find out surprising things about all HER lovers, etc.

The Gene Tierney story about her contracting rubella from a fan (who "escaped" from quarantine) while expecting, her daughter's birth defects and her later struggle with mental illness was pretty shocking.

The reported arranged marriage between Van Johnson and his wife, to quell speculation about his preferences was a surprise.

And the thing that strikes me the most about all the pieces put together, is how small and "incestuous" a town Hollywood appears to be.

With exceptions, to the casual onlooker, it looks like everyone is connected in some way, through love or betrayal or both, to almost everyone else. The Hollywood community really is a strange example of six degrees of separation.

With lives as chaotic and pressure-filled as those, it's not a wonder that the rehab facilities have revolving doors.

For anyone who missed it or want to see it again,
"The Apartment" is scheduled to play on TCM
on Wednesday at 2:45 p.m.

Dry M., and Remembering...so terribly tragic about G. T.'s baby girl. I understand that's what they did back then...just put the little things in institutions as "defectives" So awful.

Makes one see that even though they sparkled and shone up on that "silver screen" they all had trials and tribulations just like any of us.

They just were better looking while they suffered! lol (and even that was due somewhat to Max Factor, Sidney Guillaroff (sp?) and all those other makeover wizards!

Forgot to mention in my last blog about "The Apartment." The New York newspaper that I read about the movie said: "Fans of Mad Men will love this comedy about corporate America filmed way back when."

Oh, I forgot to post: I heard/read that Grace Kelly had affairs with about every actor in Hollywood. Just gossip? She evidently was pretty fast and loose.

I do recall that when she was engaged to Prince Ranier (such a romantic story!) she was sweating out the pelvic exam (to be sure she could have children--I think royalty puts the "commoners" who dare to marry them through those pretty routinely) and she was relieved when she "passed".

Not sure if she just never had to have the exam or if the results were simply disregarded (non-virgin) but I recall something about all that anyway. I guess old princy just decided he'd take her regardless.

She surely had a beautiful wedding gown.

She and Elizabeth Taylor (1st wedding--- to Nicky Hilton) were such beautiful, classic brides.

I watched "The Seven Year Itch" the other night. It was made in 1955, and Marilyn Monroe was sooooo beautiful - she looked the best I can remember from all of her movies. It is hard to believe that just 7 short years later she would be dead. When she sat in Tom Ewell's living room wearing that pink shirt and slacks, well, as another character described her, she was "a doll, a real living doll." She was more natural, and seemed more at ease, than in any of her other movies. I had not seen this movie for quite some time, and it was very good. Tom Ewell was excellent and so funny. I loved the roller skate bits, and the waitress at the health food diner! Also had Scarlett O'Hara's little sister playing his wife (Evelyn Keyes) and another "throwaway boyfriend" character played by Sonny Tufts - one of the worst names for a he-man actor ever!

.....The story handed down on Grace Kelly and Prince Ranier described her family as recently-monied Irish New Englanders, with an upwardly-mobile agenda.

As SCfan mentioned, Miss Kelly did have quite the full Hollywood "dance-card," pretty much all the time.

However, none of her paramours passed muster with her father as marriage material, save the fleeting engagement to Oleg Cassini. That too was ultimately vetoed by the Kelly family, (and not without casualties).

Unrelated to Miss Kelly's prior and frequent bed-hopping, it is rumored that the elaborate wedding movie footage taken of the Royal Wedding, its preparations and the destination wedding party cruise was more like a wake than a wedding.

Evidently, Grace Kelly had little real feeling for Ranier, referring to him often and scathingly as "an ugly toad." Rather, it was her family's lofty goals for the Kellys as a whole that cemented the union.

Miss Kelly had a thriving cinema career and, at the height of it, she happened upon the only man her family deemed suitable for marriage - the Prince of Monaco.

Word has it that the entire cruise to Monaco, which included Miss Kelly's closest female friends as the wedding party, was actually a kind of "going away forever and ever" party.

Evidently, Grace cried and cried the entire cruise, and the wedding footage speaks for itself.

But the dress was beautiful.

Interesting stuff Dry Manhattan. Let me add a small tidbit to yours: One time Grace Kelly got all bent out of shape when Jack and Jackie made a visit. Apparentaly Jackie made such an impression on the people of Monocoa and Grace was totatlly upstaged by Jackie that made Grace so upset. She was out charmed by Jackie. Being an insecure actress at heart it's no surprise. I think Jackie took pleasure since I'm sure Jack had had his way with Grace at one time.

Also I read that both Grace and Jackie took up a differenct accent with their voices throughout their lives. Even so that Grace's sisters made fun of her.

What was up with those fake English accents in the early B&W movies anyway?

Just one or two things to add to the fascinating stories listed above; namely, that Philadelphia (rather than New England) claims the Kellys. Kelly Construction was quite well known in Pennsylvania. Her father John made a fortune in that construction business, and was also a fine athlete. As I remember it (and don't quote me word for word, as it has been such a long time) I believe that John, a sculler, tried out for the Olympics and was rejected by the team because of his less-than-worthy social status. He never forgot it, and groomed his son Jack (a real looker like his sister Grace) for the Olympics when he came of age. I believe Jack won a medal with his team, bringing some sense of justice to Dad. Jack later died of a heart attack in the city's famous Fairmount Park while taking his daily run and, since he had no identification on him, was not immediately claimed. My Mother, who took the Philadelphia Inquirer and read the social pages avidly, felt that she "knew" the Kellys(!) and really grieved over Jack's untimely death. As a result, she never allowed me to leave the house without proper identification, and in her memory (and possibly Jack's!) I respect those wishes even now.

Yes, Sandy, I believe Kelly Drive in Philadelphia
is named after the family.

.....Sandy.....Thanks for the corrections and tidbits..... so interesting and explains a lot! Have you ever seen that movie footage I mentioned? G.K. was being very dramatic. Not sure how to find that footage....

Again, I am surprised to learn of the connection between JFK and Grace Kelly, if what you say is true, and the Kennedys' visit to Monaco. Rather than ask who JFK had affairs with, I think I'll just ask if there was anyone he didn't have an affair with!

Fascinating, and full of surprises.....more please!

Just to let you all know, if nobody has mentioned it before, that HOW TO SUCCEED IN BUSINESS is on TCM at 10:15pm.

I have only seen it once many, many years ago, so I will probably watch or record for later.

Sorry forgot to include the day- it is this coming Saturday.

Dry,,,,

I have not seen any movie footage that I can recall, but I do remember a still shot in the print media of Jack and Grace where she is looking up at him with such pride and adoration that it is almost embarrassing -- you think you're intruding. I believe she has a fur hat on. It's a classic, and shows those two beautiful people in their absolute prime.

Prince Albert visits Harrisburg from time to time, We have an eye specialist here who is a doctor to the stars. He has been feted at one of our large private homes and, from all reports, is a genuinely nice guy.

Grace Kelly & Jack Kennedy

Dry.....

I found the picture, copied and pasted it, but it did't "take". She has a feathered type hat on, not fur. It was in Life magazine. Really revealing in its content!

.....Sandy.....Is this the image?

http://www.whosdatedwho.com/pictures/A/3/A3X6I9C.jpg

It's small, but you're right about the look.

I finally watched Elizabeth Taylor in BU-tterfield 8 this past weekend.

I haven't seen all of Elizabeth Taylor's roles, but this one was not her greatest achievement. If, as everyone says, she got an Oscar for this role because she was ill, it probably is the truth.

The dialogue was so moralistic and preachy in this movie! It must have been the long arm of the censors who could not resist shaking their fingers at those in the audience who thought for one minute that Gloria's lifestyle would be appealing.

I loved how Eve Arden stole her scene playing the shopgirl in the store where Gloria bought the attache case. Dina Merrill's clothes were fabulous. She walked like she came from money.

Eddie Fisher sure was a cutie pie. Seeing all these actors at a young age keeps reminding me that I am probably aging, too. I don't like to think about it...I don't stare in the mirror, so I tend to forget my hair is getting whiter and whiter, and my nose and ears are less keenly defined....sigh...doesn't make it not be there, does it?

Dry......

YES! It IS the image. I don't know how you did it, but I'm glad you did. Thanks.

Greytone:

It happens to all of us. We are not the gals we once were. But we DID have the magic at one time, and we can be grateful for that. Even beauteous Liz must look in the mirror and remember what was....so we are in good company!

http://www.watch-movies.net/movies/the_day_the_earth_stood_still_2008/

This is a link for DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, is that allowed?

This getting old business is sneeky - it creeps up on you when you aren't looking. I can look at pictures and see the girl I used to be, and sometimes, when the lighting is kind and when I'm well, she is there still in the mirror and looks pretty darn good, if I do say it as shouldn't. I wouldn't want to be that girl again, and I certainly would never want all that cosmetic surgery just to look that way again. It never works, in my opinion, anyway. All the famous celebrities who we know have had work done look O.K., but they certainly don't look like they did in their youth. Some of them look pretty frightful, actually. Somebody once said you have the face you deserve once you reach your golden years, so if I deserve to look this way, I am at peace with that. At least I don't frighten the horses and scare little children, as my mama used to say.

.....Sandy.....

Just remember, it's not how you feel....it's how you look, and dahling.....YOU??

You look MAHVELOUS.....

Hello Zerelda, Greytone and Dry:

Imagine my surprise on Christmas when I learned that Eartha Kitt had died! Be honest......did you all think of me??? I feel like such a heel! Hopefully, in another realm she and Lady Bird are having a heavenly time and all is forgotten and forgiven. By the way, to her credit (and perhaps the media's), I did not read or hear one reference to the White House episode.

Dry: Thanks for the above compliment!!! I remember so well Billy Crystal's routine as "Fernando". Loved it!

.....Hi Sandy.....Thought I might find you here.....

Yes, it's a very strange coincidence, but apparently she had been ill with cancer. I did think of you a little, but only because we had all just been talking about her, and no, I don't think that you are a heel!

I can't help but feel that maybe she chose Christmas Day for her exit, possibly because of her best-known song, but maybe that really is just a crazy coincidence, too.

If you have been tuned in to the news, we seem to have lost a LOT of greats from the 50s, 60s and 70s within the past few weeks. More than usual, actually..... very sad!

On a happier note, here's to a Happy New Year, Sandy!

Rrrrr.I.P, Catwoman!

Actually, I did think of you, Sandy, but not as a heel, only as part of a great conversation amongst friends on this wonderful forum. When I heard of her death, I immediately thought of our comments, so I came back when I had a chance and re-read them.

I think Santa came and took her with him back to the North Pole so she could sing to him all year long!

I, too, thought of our conversation here, Sandy. I didn't specifically think of you, but of the forum discussion where I learned so much more about her!

The cancer that caused her illness is one that is wide-spread and overlooked in the African American community. My mother, who passed away a week before Xmas last year (she was 81, too) had colon problems (NOT the cause of her death---that was smoking), and my siblings and I took that as a signal to be mindful of our colon health. I began getting colonoscopies in my early 50's and there were small polyps present on my first one that were easily removed.

Eartha just brought colon health to the forefront to me. I'm glad everyone returned here so I could mention its importance to everyone. Insuring the inclusion of roughage in your diet is a very, very important key to colon health!