I think Paul was boring himself to death. Actually, I didn't think anyone was listening to the drone, and then for just a nanosecond Paul's eye got a fearful look, I thought. He's a pompous idiot. Sheila has got to find out fast, I mean fast, that Paul is a horrific ham.

Hi chocolatecherry! Yes, this was so strange. I posted my feelings under the main thread, episode 10.
I thought Sheila and Paul were on the bus to Washington D.C. for the Civil Rights rally where Dr. King gave his "I have a Dream" speak. It was a major event in 1962 in the Civil Rights movement.
Does anyone know when this rally took place in 1962? I don't know if my timeline is right.
I don't think they were heading down South to be freedom riders, I may be wrong.

I thought they were headed down South - that was the point of Paul being so afraid - yes, he was afraid, the poor sap - from what I saw of the scene on the bus, there was one other white man. I think Paul was doing what he always does, speaking because he loves the sound of his own voice. Remember Don D. to him to do the listening at the convention and let Pete C. do the talking. In the preview of next week they guys back at the office are talking about what is happening down south and had anyone heard from Paul Kinsey, so I am assuming he and Sheila were down there in the thick of some civil rights demonstrations.

Hi zerelda! Thanks for the clarification!
Do you know what month in 1962 the march in Washington D.C. took place?

I remember Dr. King's legendary speech.
If I remember correctly, wasn't this the beginning of the Folk song movement joining with The Civil Rights movement? I know Peter, Paul, and Mary were there, and Joan Baez also performed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_a_Dream

I "googled" and found this on wikipedia. The march on washington was August, 1963. The speech on the 28th of August, You can read about it at this link.

Ummmm, there are intellectual Black folks out there who could’ve held their own with Paul. Quite frankly, he's such a fool that a five-year old could carry on an intelligent conversation with him, but I digress. From my impression, the people on the bus didn’t care what he had to say and probably saw him as arrogant and condescending.

I also think the point of that scene was to show what a pretentious idiot Paul is. He did not know what else to talk about since he had nothing in common with the people on the bus besides his black girlfriend.

Remember, Paul relented to go with Shelia after Don decided to take Paul's place on the California trip. Paul tried to make himself look like the good guy in the situation, but in reality, he had to go with Shelia since he had been using the California trip as an excuse.

Paul is such a poser!!! There’s not an ounce of sincerity in his body.

This would be around September 1962. The march on Washington for Dr. King's speech wasn't until August 1963.

Paul and Sheila were going on a bus trip to register voters. Someone said they were going to DC, but why would you go there to register voters? Going down south sounds more like it. I'm thinking Selma or Montgomery? The Freedom Riders, perhaps? Can someone clarify?

NewsGirl: We agree on something! :) I can't stand Paul Kinsey either.... what a bag of pompous air.

i don't know what paul's game is, but he is a stone cold bore and that beatnik beard and ascot and pipe (at his party earlier this season) are laughable.

regardless of where you're going, it's bad enough having to ride in an uncomfortable bus on a long trip, but having some windbag pontificate for hours on end? not thanks.

Boca - I was thinking (along with lots of you) that someone is going to decorate Paul's smug face and perfectly trimmed facial hair with his own body fluids if he doesn't shut up. PS - Boca, I think we share the field which, if practiced without a license would land someone in trouble? (mine is dermatology) Paul - He is indeed such a poseur and we KNOW he'd rather be in Cali than where he is. He simply wants to gain points for being 'forward thinking' wherever he is. His girlfriend is very cute but not sure what she sees in him.

Paul was forced through circumstance (the cancellation of the LA trip for him) to put his money where his mouth is. It was kind of a laughable and pathetic, and I thought he looked "scared" there for a moment on the bus, but maybe Paul will actually start to "live" up to the beliefs/philosophy that he's so continually shoving down people's throats (like no one else is "enlightened" but him).

@Hyper: I'm rather shocked Mad Men is even tackling the Civil Rights Movement....I think part of me tolerates Paul because Sheila wouldn't be part of the show if not for his character. And Joan was such an asshole to the woman for no reason!

I was hoping Sheila would have a side hookup with Ken because, well, the man needs a storyline. He's a hottie and all that handsome's being wasted at the moment!

Visan - yes indeed Ken needs some action. He's got the goods and the mind to match. Sheila and Ken, you may have something there but if memory serves he's sort of the office pimp, NO? He's got "lots of numbers". I really think Ken's action takes place off camera or where would he get his 'book of numbers?" Ken seems to yearn for domestic bliss (at intervals only) but don't think he is one to upset the apple cart at work.

I do not know how anyone at the office can tolerate Paul. Did you see the look Joan shot him when Sheila was at the office?
I also agree that Ken needs more story line. I would like him to fall head over heels with someone!

Laurie B., the Freedom Riders were active in 1961, so unless MM, is re-writing history, I don't think that's it. I'm curious where the storyline is going because the only significant thing that I can see that happened in 1962 was James Meredith going to Ole Miss.

Also, did anyone else note Hollis' reaction to Paul and Sheila's converation? Hollis looked at Sheila like: "What the heck are you doing with him? He's an IDIOT!!!!!" That cracked me up.

I'm not a huge Joan fan, but when she asked Paul for all his stuff for the California trip in front of everyone, I was so happy. I don't believe in humiliating people or in passive-aggressive actions, but he deserved it.

Ugh, he just annoys me.

I doubt they were going to DC to register voters, I don't think residents of DC were eligible to vote until the 70's.

From Google: http://www.africanaonline.com/civil_rights_summer.htm

Freedom Summer 1964 marked the climax of intensive voter registration activities in the South that started in 1961. Organizers chose to focus their efforts on Mississippi because of the state's particularly dismal voting rights record. In 1962 only 6.7 percent of African Americans in the state were registered to vote, the lowest percentage in the country.

Laurie B, I skimmed the information you provided. I got my time frames wrong.

And just a side note, I believe that most of the Freedom Riders' buses orginiated in D.C. Maybe Paul and Sheila are heading to D.C., to catch a bus down to Mississippi.

Every viewer has that one or ten characters that simply grate on their nerves! Paul's odd speech on the bus has him teetering on my last nerve. But I'm OK with him...at the moment.

I'm sorry Visan, but he's tap dancing on my last good nerve!

Paul at the moment is a pompous wind bag. I am wondering though if that is about to change. If he really is down south working on civil rights and voter registration, he is getting a real education and will probably come back to the office a changed man - he will really believe all the stuff he has only been spouting off about before to make himself sound important. I hope this is what happens, anyway - I would hate to think him so self involved he wouldn't get the importance of what he would be experiencing.

Sheila seemed to be totally content, and the guy about 2 seats forward seemed interested.
Paul was probably relieved that the LA trip came up and then darn disappointed that he was left out. He did not look too comfortable on the bus so he just kept blabbing away. Oh dear...he'll be clinging to Sheila for the entire experience!

Zerelda: That's a sweet wish that Paul becomes enlightened. Me, I just hope he gets his ass kicked.

Well, maybe Paul can get his ass kicked and that enlightens him!

Its too bad Paul has to be sooo unlikeable. We didnt know that this was going to be in store for him unitl his house party and his poseur lifestyle and African- American girlfriend were introduced. It was like "Oh-- Okay he's the jerk!"

I just wish that since he is going to be our very and only narrow route into any African American experience of the time that he not be such a douche. But then, why not? Who is actually likeable on the show? They are interesting and conflicting characters who are no more likeable or less so than all the asshats we navigate through on any given day. Keeping in mind that we share many of the same qualities.

Its so easy to love the lovely Joan. But she really is my favorite. Honest and all cards on the table. There was nothing passive aggressive about her humiliating Paul at all. It was actually in your face bitchy and upfront-- just done with a smile and no faux sympathy-- Delicious! Almost better than cheerfully asking for a slice a cake afterwards!
What a great moment!

I think I agree with most of the sentiments here. My inner monologue during Paul's speech on the bus: "Shut up, shut up, stop talking now, shut up."

JMO, Paul's character will probably have something occur to him that makes him more likeable in the next episodes. That's the MM writers' M.O. But you never know....

Joan WAS very harsh to Sheila at the party but at least she's not pretending to be somebody she's not, as Paul is. Personally, I would rather people be honest with me, than act one way and think another. At least you know where they stand. With everything so politically correct these days, you have to read between the lines and second guess.

I think its easy to say she was harsh to Sheila at the party but I dont think that was her actual goal. Although it also wasnt her goal to be overly friendly either.

If anything I think it was a frank warning of Paul. If she was insulting anyone it was Paul. Shes letting Shelia know that he is one to misrepresent himself.

Although she didnt go on to become Sheila's BFF for the rest of the night and get tipsy and exchange secrets and reveal what a a-Hole Paul really is like one sorority sister to another she did give her a cool and distant revelation-- that if Sheila is a discerning woman meeting her boyfriends co workers and friends for the first time would be smart to file this info away for later.

Perhaps Sheila understood this fine. She looks slightly stunned but still composed and compliments Joan's bag. Joan graciously thanks her. Now thats some tension and recovery my friends! Well played by everyone!

Hi nmkay!
Thank you for the date, Wow I was off by a year! I'm not cyber-smart enough to look up facts!!

I saw the dialogue between Sheila and Joan a bit differently. While I do believe that Joan may have been giving Sheila a heads up about Paul, I also saw it as kind of disbelief that Sheila was black.

MM takes place in the early 1960's. I'm sorry, but I don't see any white women being able to take having an ex-boyfriend --even a jerk--- hook up with a black woman and she not be insulted. I've seen that happen in 2008. Imagine how much worse it would've been in 1961/1962.

What I said may not be PC, but that is the reality.

Let me re-phrase my previous statement...I don't see "MANY" white women.....not "ANY."

Paul's in for an eye-opening...and it's going to come by way of an ass-kicking...which will happen long before they get to Mississippi. Did you see those two guys on the bus? Next rest stop, they're gonna take him behind the building and give him the once over.

Newsgirl you are sooooo right! but aren't White Men and Black Women historically "hooked-up? I read somewhere that although it was illegal for Black Men and White Women to "hook-up"(have sexual relations) No laws ever exsisted in the "good ole" U.S.of "A".... pertaining to Black Women, and White Men. I'm sure it was just an oversight.....LOL

As an African American woman I am clearly aware that what would be racially sensitive now would be even more so in this time era. I am also aware that MM takes place in the 1960's but thank you. Believe me when I say I got it.

But this has nothing to do with PC-- a term that at this point has gone from the well meaning to asinine to now just boring.

I just think its soooo easy to read it all as racial tension. I think the writers and the actors are more interesting than that. I think Joan is surprised. Of course she is--- The girl is BLACK! But I think Joan is more self serving than just an oversimplified mean racist girl. I think shed rather get a dig in on the man who humiliated her after talking smack about their hook up than be mean to some random black girl who means nothing to her anyway. Joan is more focused in her motivation than random catty swipes at someone she probably holds more pity for than actual malice. Without an introduction at the party shed be more likely to say nothing to Sheila than be tediously cruel.

I am not blind to the subtext of the scene. I think it simply has more to do with Joan and revealing Paul as a phoney than it has do with Sheila who is more an observer. But hopefully her time will come.

I think Paul was rambling along, proving his pompous-ness because of fear. He mentioned more than once the danger of his going down south to help register voters. He was pleased to be going to California and having an excuse to put it off, or at least delay it. Sheila mentioned the name of the leader of the bus..but I didn't hear it clearly. What has always been out of place for me is Paul and Joan. Remember his party where he introduced Sheila, Joan said to her that 'when we were together' or 'when he was with me'. Joan took pleasure in telling him, in front of everyone that he wasn't going to California. She acted at that party and since then, as if she is a jilted girlfriend. I just don't see her as being in Paul's league or not being with him if she wanted to be.

You know, ever since Paul's had his new girlfriend, and Joan lost Roger, she HAS never missed a beat in nailing Paul to the wall. Joan does act like a jilted girlfriend in a way. In the end, if Paul is the biggest phoney she knows in New York, what does it matter to Joan? She's not dating him, she didn't have his baby, she didn't want him (is he now looking like a better candidate than the doctor?), so why doesn't Joan drop it once and for all. Leave the guy alone if she can't stand him.

Or is it still about the drivers license on the office bulletin board revealing Joan's age? Is that humiliation so wounding, that Joan is not going to drop it until she's evened the score to her satisfaction? And what would that be?

Joan is still uptight about the whole bulletin thing. It even makes her mad that he is dating a african american woman and she seems to not like that also. Joan is cool with me but she need to get off it, as long as she not dating her why should she give a damn who he's dating. A simple hello would be all she can say and go on by her business. Instead of giving Sheila the evil eye. Did anyone see how Sheila looked back at Joan as if she knew Joan don't like her. Sheila should cut into her real strong. In that time African Americans wasn't as freeworded as we are now. Especially in that type of setting.

Well, she sure can't seem to get over it. I guess Paul REALLY hit her Achilles heel over age with the bulletin board humiliation. Man, she is not letting it go.

If the implication of the question that began this thread is that there were no black activist intellectuals in the early 60s, that's certainly false. Most of the black freedom riders were associated with the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee which means (a) many were students, i.e. in the process of being educated and (b) given their interests probably spent a lot of time debating about socio-economic theory including Marxidm.

Which, of course, is what makes Paul's discourse all the more condescending. As for the substance of what he says -- the market doesn't care what color you are -- I'm not sure whether it's naive or prescient!

Joan is upset with Paul because they had a 'thing" and he blabbed about it to the office. All this was alluded to in the first season-- Several times on more than one episode. Now they just take swipes at each other whenever possible. Remember when she trashed his play at the drunken election party? That was the last time it was mentioned.

She wasn't as nasty to him last season (or in 1960) as she is now. Joan seems to be getting nastier or more needling with Paul than ever. The "Nixon vs Kennedy" episode was a cakewalk to how she is now.

I think what doesn't fit with me is that Joan and Paul were ever together in the first place. Did it begin at a drunken office party? Joan has such a bullsh** meter, why would she not see through him at first meeting? Is he really a nice guy and hides it under all his affectations? I think the voter registration trip is pure Paul having to put up or shut up. Why does Sheila like Paul?

Another possible thing that may happen on the trip. Sheila gets hurt and that truly radicalizes Paul to the point he's punching out her attacker.

BTW, I think Joan is a dog in the manger when it comes to past boyfriends (at least in the office.)

Okay, so Paul's a posing doofus. He's got a heart, though. I think something is going to happen to him in Mississippi (if he actually is on a freedom-rider bus) that will change him fundamentally.

I thought I did see another white guy on the bus, in the back row, and he looked a lot like one of the three kids who were murdered and buried in an earth dam (see the movie "Mississippi Burning" if you don't remember this event.)

Olfacta - wow. Your mention of the other white kid with the glasses and his resemblence to the murdered kids was very eerie. I hope you're wrong about the killings. I don't know the specifics of the Freedom Riders fate. Were any of the bus riders killed?

BOYSCOURAGE you are absolutely right, however those buses were not only filled with students, but also with people of various religious affiliations, political ideologist, media, celebrities, and finally regular Joe Blow.....It took a VILLAGE!!

hyperboliz, i WISH i were a dermatologist - here in south florida with all the skin cancer, acne, roseacea and wrinkles, what a great place for your specialty! alas, i'm a mere attorney. what a way to make a living.

as for paul/sheila/joan etc: after reading ms nola's discourse and commentary, i am leaning heavily toward her views overall. excellent insights, ms nola.

and like sizzle, i have to wonder what sheila sees in paul. she's lovely, poised, well-spoken, intelligent - and he's not. i can't imagine that his simply being white is a major draw for her. what's the attraction?

maybe Paul is a great lover! lol.

Olfacta: Yes, there was another white guy in the back of the bus, but no, Cheney, Goodman and Schwerner aren’t murdered in Mississippi until June ‘64, almost two years from now.

Also, many of you seem unsure about where Paul and Sheila are going on the bus? Some suggesting they’re going to D.C. On the elevator Shelia says to Paul something along the lines of “I guess I’ll have to go to Mississippi alone on Billy Kaplan’s bus.” They’re going to Mississippi. Case closed. But since Sheila tossed the name out there, my question is who is Billy Kaplan? Is “Billy” supposed to represent Kivie Kaplan, who was a real person deeply involved in the civil rights movement at that time?

theblackjoan, maybe he is, which would be a good reason to be with him, but i doubt it! he probably wears that ascot to bed! lol.

Boca I am cracking up at the thought of Paul in that ascot and pipe standing in the doorway right before he jumps in the sack! lmao.. hilarious..

Paul and the ascot...in bed!

*Dead from laughter!!*

He's probably got a smoking jacket too, with a pouch of wacky tobackey in the pocket.

Oooooh, to set the mood, he'll burn incense and read terrible poetry (his own) by candlelight. He'll have to find a dozen words that rhyme with "baby". :P

For some reason I'm starting to picture Paul as being like that character Will Ferrell used to play on SNL, the bearded professor guy that would talk to strangers about all his dirty encounters with his "lovah". Sick, but so funny!

btw, paul the poser's new nickname is "peepee" (pp).

oh yeah hanna, i remember that horny, aged hippy character played and his equally pervy girlfriend on snl - oh so creepy! always giving "too much information" about their sex life...yuck!

Lucy - when did Sheila talk about 'billy'? I can't recall. Also, did this billy/kivie have a pivotal role in 1962? Was he killed? Did he disappear? Tell us more, please?

Lucky Toasted Strike - when did Sheila talk about 'billy'? I can't recall. Also, did this billy/kivie have a pivotal role in 1962? Was he killed? Did he disappear? Tell us more, please?

Please take this comment in the helpful spirit in which it's given, but I'll never understand why so many of you post questions of a historical nature in theses forums, when you literally have all the answers to everything you could possibly ever want to know, right at your fingertips.

www.google.com

Lucky Strike, Thanks for saying the name Billy Kaplan. I heard it as "Mr." someone's bus. Paul also said, 'no one has been shot lately', about his trip.

As far as when Sheila spoke about Billy Kaplan, as I said above in my earlier comments, it was after she left the office, during the elevator ride down with with Paul and Hollis.

Lucky - since you mentioned the man's name just thought you had some insights. That's all. But thanks.

As one of the wise guys said on the Soprano's "someone's got to go". I nominate Paul. He's such a bore and his personality isn't likeable at all. I wouldn't want him to be harmed,but I'd love to see Paul take a "six month leave" instead of Freddy.
Sheila needs to wake up,look around and get a better boyfriend who is real and true. Hollis,Billy,Ken, anybody but Paul.

I've always hoped that minor characters who are black would become multi-dimensional. Maybe Sheila's choice of Paul is showing that she, like so many women, has bad taste in boyfriends? I've no idea. I'm just so damn desirous to see more of Sheila, Hollis and Carla that I'm creating plotlines for them in my head.... LOL!

I cracked up at Paul's spouting off about Marx - maybe he meant Groucho. For gawd sakes, he's in the advertising business, the pinnacle of capitalism. (I mean Paul, not Groucho!)

I find that most people posting about Paul are usually bad mouthing him and his motives. But understand this...for all his idiotic flaws, he is still on that bus going to register voters down south. He knows that it's dangerous and could have easily got out of going..lied and said he went to California.

But he didn't lie. He is supporting Sheila and her beliefs. And he is going to march arm and arm with her. Standing up against racism! Good for Paul I say!

The reason he is talking about advertising on the bus is to simply tell everyone on the bus something about himself.. that they can relate to. Obviously he doesn't have much in common with other folks on the bus..But everyone has some idea about advertising. Therefor a common thread to build upon.

Paul does seem pompous and a bit immature..but he is trying to do the right thing. And he is standing by his girlfriend. More than Don Draper would do I bet

Looks like “ard 123” beat me to it but I’ll post my thoughts anyway…

So hey everyone, what flavor is that “Hater-rade” you’re all drinking? I’m asking because I really don’t understand all the contempt for Paul where Sheila is concerned. Can someone please tell me even one instance where he has mistreated or disrespected her? Just one? I think a lot of you are projecting your own prejudice assumptions on Paul. Many going so far as to suggest “Paul needs his ass kicked.” Apparently you’ve all forgotten these were NON-violent protesters. So nobody on that bus is going to be kicking Paul’s ass.

What ever his reasons for being with Sheila, at least Paul’s not embarrassed to be seen with her or present her as his woman. Paul also has the balls to risk his life and get his lily white behind on that bus to fight for the rights of others when he didn’t have to. (And giving a damn about someone else is not an action I see very many other characters on Mad Men participating in.) When Paul’s trip to Cali got cancelled he did NOT have to tell Sheila about. He could have kept his mouth shut, stayed at home, let her go to Mississippi, and she would have been none the wiser! Instead he CHOOSES to go with her. He chooses to support her. So what if he picked up a few brownie points and made himself look good in the process? We’re guys. THAT’S WHAT WE DO! Nuthin’ wrong with that. So never mind how he ended up on the bus. He’s clearly doing it of his own free will. And at that time, probably risking a lot doing so.

And now part two of “Quit hatin’ on Paul”

Remember it’s 1962 on the show. Paul is smart, well read and obviously not racist. Maybe he’s ahead of his time and simply more enlightened than the others. (Apparently this makes his character the target of ridicule here.) Besides, where would black folks be with out the Pauls of the world supporting the movement. Fake, phony or otherwise, how much longer would our civil rights victories have taken without people like Paul in the struggle beside us.

Personally I’m willing to take Paul at face value. If anything, he seems more cheesy than disingenuous. He certainly doesn’t strike me as a sinister character with ill intentions. It’s obvious his dating Sheila isn’t going to win him any points with his co-workers at Sterling-Cooper, so why is he doing it? Why can’t we just assume his feelings for her are genuine? I give Paul A LOT of credit. So far he seems to be one of the few characters on Mad Man that doesn’t have anything to hide.

And now for the thrilling conclusion of “Quit hatin’ on Paul”

It’s also funny to me how many of you seem to be taking the side of Joan, a woman of such high moral caliber that she was sleeping with the OWNER of the company and didn’t have sense enough to at the very LEAST get a promotion out of it. All she got was a broken heart, the pleasure of working with his new girlfriend everyday, and a bird. A freakin’ bird! She’s hurt, she’s jealous, and she’s frustrated with her career. If Paul’s new girlfriend were white as snow, I don’t think Joan would be any less pissy to her OR Paul.

I’ve rambled long enough. I just don’t think Paul is a poser. But well see soon enough.

Lucky Strike
"It's Toasted!"

lucky strike, we don't hate paul, we're just makin' fun of him! he takes himself so seriously - that brings out the "mock" in lots of us! paul's not a bad person - he doesn't inspire strong enough feeling to arouse hatred. but he does inspire good-natured ridicule!

and i do agree with you, joan's snotty attitude would have been the same regardless of who paul's girlfriend was.

I'm with boca. I don't hate Paul, I just find it amusing that he takes himself so seriously. It's wonderful that he has ideals and supported Sheila in the end, but to be nit-picky he kind of had to go with her (or lose face) after his Cali trip was canceled, and he did sound like a bag of hot air on the bus. Personally, the people I admire the most are the ones who can laugh at themselves and be real and honest about everything.

I don't hate Paul like I hate Betty and Pete. Paul has some great qualities but he's also pompous as hell. And his pomposity is fun to crack jokes on. That's all!

Lucky Strike, I'll have to take into consideration your points about Paul. I still don't like him, but you've given me some things to ponder.

The reason why I don't like Paul is because I appreciate people (real or ficitious) who are up front. Paul may have relented and gotten on the bus, but at the end of the day, he only went because the Cali trip fell through. I guess there's a certain level of insincerity with him that's disagreeable.

I also agree with what you said about Joan. On another thread, I argued that the reason why Joan was so nasty to Sheila was because she was surprised that Paul --even though it appears that Joan broke up with him-- got with a black woman after her. I don't think her ego could take that.

Just checking out this thread for the first time and find everyone's comments qutite compelling....

...Pau and Joan hooked up at some point prior to the beginning of the MM episodes...because it's first referred to in the past tense at the "election office party"...Joan tells Paul that he didn't get any further because he "kissed and told"...

...i never much appreciated the tone of the conversation that Joan had with Sheila at Paul's party..it was at best extremely condesending and catty and assumptive...especially the comment she made about Sheila someday being a customer at the store rather than an employee and sheila responds that she's already been a custome - she grew up in that neighborhood...
...re the trip South...Paul and Sheila are definitely going south to register voters in Mississippi which in 63 was an extremely frightening proposition for anyone and most folks had special training in non violent tactics before they went..these trips were co-sponsored by COFO a very serious civil rights organizxation of the 50s and 60s...the Freedom Rides were not about voter registration they were about desegrating the interstate travel and accomadations especially in the south were the waiting rooms/restrooms/waterfountains and food services areas were severely segregated.

...about interracial relationships...the law against inter racial marriages was effective in the South ..not in New York .. in fact I know several folks personally who lived in NYC and were invovlved in inter racial marriages and relationships in fact there was a entire circle of black actors and writers (men) who were married to white women...so the concecpt of Paul and Sheila would not have been un usual but the fact that Ken leaned in and kissed her on her cheek would have totally been inapporpriate during that time and in that particular professional situation ... I am not even sure if it would have been a good idea for Sheila to have come up to the office at all.

just my 2 cents worth....
diva

Joan's words to Sheila were absolutely atrocious! Joan's condescension and overall funky attitude makes her one unlikeable character!

joan does have a snarky, snide manner much of the time, especially when dealing with other women. a very bad trait.

hey you guys....this is the early 60s ....close friendships between women in the workplace or any where else fo that matter were not something that were easily forged...though i really can't stand it. and consider it the forerunner of the "mean girl/woman" syndrome....Joan's attitude was quite common in the workplace as well as women's club circles.

i think that Betty will return to Don primarily because was we have seen in past episodes; divorced and widowed women were considered piariah's in a social sense; as single woman on the loose could possibly endanger your relationship with a your spouse...frequently and this i think was so cruel...widowed women would be slowly disinvited from social events occurring in their circle of friends because they were seen and "competition" and don't even talk about women who were single by choice....

I love reading the views on this board, and they often give me a different perspective on a scene. Here is how I read the conversation with Sheila and Joan at the party. I didn't see race as a problem with Joan. I think Joan said that, too. At the party where Sheila was introduced, I thought Joan was talking to her woman to woman. I think Joan would have said the same thing to Sheila without regard to race, and Joan was reacting to Paul having a girlfriend. The station wagon comment, I saw to mean that Sheila would find herself a married suburban housewife with kids in the station wagon. You know, every woman's dream, in other words. At least in Joan's view at the time. Joan was saying that Sheila wouldn't have to keep working for long. I find that condescending, but I think Joan would have said that to any working woman she had just met. It was like saying, 'hang in there sweetie, things will get better soon'.

Paul kissed and told, uh? I will have to look at that scene again. Whatever he did, it really made Joan mad. And she isn't letting it go. Maybe she thought she would be the one driving a station wagon filled with his kids. I have said it often, but I just don't get Paul and Joan being partners. Maybe her being with him is showing us a Joan before she was office manager.

Nobody said he's going to get his ass kicked by anybody ON the bus. But hey, they're heading into some pretty rough territory for its time - Mississippi circa 1962. Oh puh-leez... the white people who were on those buses to support voting rights, civil rights, etc got made an example of for standing/marching with the blacks.

As for Paul and Joan, remember in Nixon v. Kennedy, after all the drunks had passed out or hooked up in the various offices, Paul was sitting alone on the steps and Joan walked up and kicked off her shoes. He teased her about not being able to sit down because her dress was too tight, then she teased him about looking like Orson Welles (which was still a compliment in the '60s), then they did their very slow cha-cha dance together while Paul hummed something. It was very sweet and tender. Then Paul asked her "What happened with us?" and she answered "You have a big mouth." and when he protested, she repeated "You have a big mouth." I think she really liked Paul, after all, he was single, but then he betrayed her by kissing and telling to the guys. What a horrible thing to do! And she can't forget it... And he does feel bad about that because I think he genuinely likes/loves her. Their retaliatory activities toward one another are a reflection of them both being wounded.

Paul was not as pompous last season as he is this season. Not at all. And that's what's got Joan all up in his face for being a two-faced pompous poser. Remember his party? Him with his pipe and his ascot and his snifter? Oh puh-leeze. It makes a part of me think maybe he's trying to seem so worldly to impress Joan. ?????

laurie b, good reminder about the election night office party and the joan/paul interlude. now that i think of it, joan probably DID really like paul, but he blew it with his big yap (to use ritt's word, "yap", which i haven't heard in a long time!)...

it's too bad he ruined it, because joan would probably be nicer if she had a good relationship. or at least, i hope she would...

Today we recognize Paul's silly "limosine liberal" comments as ridiculous posing, but then it was new. It took a while to see how insincere all that was. Maybe his heart, if not his mouth, is in the right place. Maybe after talking the talk, he will begin to walk the walk. But at that time, I think Sheila would not have seen through him and would have been impressed, at least at first.

Hi fellow Maddicts!
I tried to read all the posts in this section to update myself, here's my 2 cents worth (which today is probably worth .5 cent!):

I do believe Paul sincerely loves Sheila.
I would like to think that his love for her is proof that he is not racist.
I also think he likes seeing people's reaction to his girlfriend. I'm not sure if it is because he needs to prove how open minded he is. I would hate to think he is using Sheila to make a social statement.

I believe Paul doesn't realize what he is in for in the South. His skin color will not protect him.
From all I have read and seen from that time in our Country's history, whites who went South to help The Civil Rights cause, were treated as blacks. The police beatings, dog attacks, etc. knew no color in the South if you were a Civil Rights supporter.
Maybe this is why posters are speculating that Paul will get his ass kicked...he probably will.

As interesting and insightful the comments on the Paul-Sheila relationship are, I find it annoying that many people in our society assume that interracial friendships and especially romantic relationships are about race, that the parties involved are trying to "prove" something.
Why is sooooo impossible for people of different ethnic or racial groups to have common interests, belong to the same profession, share hobbies and activities and genuinely like or love each other?
As a black woman who share many interests with white friends (men and women), such as classical concerts, opera, foreign language, I assume that is that case with others as well.
That may not be true with Paul-Sheila relationship, but it's not impossible that he truly finds her attractive.
Donna

Correction:
"as a black woman who shares",etc"

Sheila's very beautiful and many posters have acknowledged that. So of course Paul would be attracted to an attractive woman. Yet, he's pompous as hell. And that's why he gets clowned on a lot, like nearly all the characters. (Duck had posters wanting to shoot him after he abandoned poor Chauncey the pooch!)

I'm still hoping Sheila takes Ken as her side piece!

dmarie.... to say that interracial relationships are NOT about race is naive in my opinion. Racial groups have preferences within their own groups. As a lighter-skinned African-American I prefer darker-skinned mates. Thats what I like! Not to say that there aren't wonderful lighter- skinned Afri-Amer. out there, but thats not what appeals to me personally.In the Seventies I dated people of various racial backgrounds and I have great memories, but it wasn't without challenges on top of the challenges that normally go with relationships.I guess what i'm trying to say is that although they say "LOVE IS BLIND" I've never found that to be so, because if for "one" moment you happen to forget there will always be someone there to remind you.(we don't live in bubbles) So I think race does play apart in romantic relationships because there is a conscience awareness of it on some level

Hi chocolatecherry,
I agree my views on interracial relationships might be naive. Actually what I meant to write was that not ALL interracial romances are about race; obviously many are.
I realize "Love is not blind", but I have been attracted to men (and people in general) with whom I have interests in common. I don't have preferences in skin color or race. And, of course, it's true there is a consciousness of race in these relationships. But, hopefully if people involved really love each other they will try to work to overcome the obstacles.
Donna