I wouldn't know, I'm Mexican.

Well, Look at the history of Harlem and Green Street(in Tulsa).

Si, Nueva Negre

perdon, usted nuevo Negro.

LOL Stop while you're ahead, dude! I am not a Nueva (a.k.a newbie). BTW What ever happened with your thread to elect a new mod? That was hilarious.

Elections NOV 4th

Elections NOV 4th

It is true that when certain groups of people could live only in restricted areas, those areas flourished because people of all economic and educational levels lived there. However, IMO choice is best in all things. Today, many people choose to live in their own racial, religious, cultural communities. The difference is, they choose to do this. Women also are faced with more choices--it may be more complicated, but still it is better than having someone else decide what is best.

pi168: I grew-up in the Northern suburbs of Chicago during the 1960's. I can remember my family being one of the two, to three black families per block in my neighborhood, and likewise (kids) per class in elementary school. By the time that I reached jr. high school, my neighborhood was 90% black, but the schools were 30% black 70%white. Due to "White Flight" few of the 70% lived in my neighborhood. Today, my old neighborhood is 80% Mexican, 20% Black and no Whites

Paeonia: It took me 45 years to make it to the deep south, (Atl) and I'm so glad that I did, because for the first time in my life I got to witness many affluent, and successful Blacks that didn't feel the need to live next door to Whites to validate their status. Since I had experienced Los Angeles first, I had the O.J Simpson view of Black success.Still, many Blacks share OJ's view, but now I understand its not the "ONLY" view. I, I'm sure, like many others have had mixed emotions about "Down South" however, for me it was an eye-opening, mind developing experience.

What is "OJ's view" of black success? Getting away with murder?

Oh No! We're taking over Chocolate! Keep up with those Spanish lessons!

No Laurie B OJ was just a white guy in Black face. he made the decision long ago to leave the values and mores of the black community to be acceptable to the "larger society". Him playing the race card to get out of that murder rap was the biggest pile of manure laid in the 20th century and don't bring up the black people cheering at the verdict because that was not about him but about a legal system that had always prejudged blacks folks guilty..anyway all this is besides the point.

As as Black person born right in the middle of the 20th century I can say that in many ways - this elections being just one of them - yes we have come a long way by faith, hard work and determination. But I do also remember that I was sorely disappointed and thought that all I had struggled for (black studies, increased black and latino enrollment at my predominately white state university in the southwest; more registered voters; my being the first black woman elected to the student government; better communities for blacks and latinos to live in ... i felt that it had all been for nothing when in 1982 one of my friend's childrent had a cross burned in front of her dorm room door and this on the campus of one of the Ivy League campuses. And to think of some of the things that have happened in this Presidential race..I truly believe that you can change laws that allow fuller access but you can't legislate love and positive feelings,

But shouldn't you have "let that go" (the cross burning?) and chalk it up to there will always be ignoramuses in this world? Just like white people are instructed to not pay attention when throngs of blacks cheer an obviously prejudiced verdict. We're not supposed to wonder "what's wrong with this picture" ?

I'm in Detroit and our mayor began his 120 day jail term today for 8 counts of perjury and 10 counts of obstruction of justice, plus a plea on an assault on a police officer. you wouldn't believe the black people saying he was "railroaded" even though he ripped off his own people to the tune of $9 million dollars, trying to cover up multiple affairs, and illegal business schemes. This crap of sticking it to the man falls a bit silly when "the man" is a city population of 90% black people that are suffering because of their mayor's lies and thievery. He laughed and smirked his way through the court proceedings yesterday and said "Y'all done set me up for a comeback." to a cheering crowd. Sighhhh.... shaking my head.

It always amazes me when a White person suggest that something be "let go." 'I think to myself" "they don't get it." They obviously don't live with the painful images of past decades. Do I think of George Wallace, and the horrible "televised" images of my youth on a daily basis? No, but believe me when I tell you its on "speed dial," and accessible at a moments notice. Laurie B.: The O.J view of Black success is to remove yourself as far from the Black community as possible. What plagued OJ in my opinion was that he could physically leave the Black community (i read that he was raised in the projects in the SF/Oakland area, but he took his "mindset" with him. Even today, and after all that he went through he is still acting as a product of the inner city projects. Money can't buy everything.

I would like to add something to the convo....

When Blacks cheer(ed) for O.J. Simpson and Kwame Kilpatrick, it has not SOLEY about race. In the case of O.J. Simpson, it was a RICH black man who was able to get over on 'the man" -- which is something that the average, poor or middle-classed black man could not do.

As far as Kilpatrick, I believe the outrage doesn't have to do with him "ripp[ing] off his own people." Kilpatrick didn't do anything more than what "the man," i.e. the white power structure has done for years. It's just that Kilpatrick got caught AND paid or is paying for it. By the way, just because Detroit and other "Chocolate Cities" exist does not mean that the powers that be in those cities are abosolute. The mayors of Washington, D.C., Atlanta, Gary, and Detroit still have to answer to rich, white business leaders and politicans.

Of course, I am NOT ---repeat--- NOT saying that I agree with what Simpson or Kilpatrick did. But, I do feel that some of the posts have a rather naive and simplistic view of race in the U.S.

To answer the originial question: Yes and no. We have come a long way, but that doesn't mean that deep-seated problems no longer exist. Progress does not equal perfection. On the other hand, the sense of community, pride, and discipline that once existed in the many black communities before intergration (as I've been told by my mother) has been lost because too many people equated living, working, and learning next to white people meant being "better."

I guess I see hope of change in our society because of the kids. I think there are so many mixed kids, that that is my hope that race lines are being blurred and will become inconsequential in judging a person.

My nephew is half black/half white, so I really have hope that he, and the kids like him, will help change society so that it is "color blind".

And as for you tiny bear......Yo dolor decabeza, por que castigar mi? por favor el auto! .....LOL

And as for you tiny bear......Yo dolor decabeza, por que castigar mi? por favor el auto! .....LOL

Besides, I think the United States is changing so much, that hysterically (and maybe finally), whites are becoming the minority. We have such an influx of immigrants from ALL over the world rather than just out of Europe, that I can't believe that the people of these cultures from around the world aren't helping to change the U.S.

jamm54, I respectfully disagree. To me, a "color blind" society means a society that denies who and what people are. The inference is that something is wrong with being white, black, Latino, biracial, etc. If your nephew is biracial, he should have the freedom to be proud of both sides of his family tree and to express that pride.

I am a black woman. I want you to see, appreciate, and respect who and what I am. If we live in a color blind society, what happens to everyone appreciating one another's cultures and celebrating one another's differences in a positive way?

Jam54:.... not so fast.... I live in the Pacific Northwest, and the mixed population(Blk/Wht) is huge! In theory, your post seems reasonable, but guess what? the products (children) of these mixed encounters (marriages..ect) want it to be known that they are BI-RACIAL, not Black. What a slap in the face that was when I first was informed by a White woman of her childs status.I asked if she always planned to live on this side of the Rocky Mountains? She ignored me.

So in theory, if all our children married and had children with a person of the opposite race, and in about 2 generations from now, ALL people were bi-racial, would that mean everyone was black?

@Newsgirl1160: I had never thought of it that way (see, shows how limited my POV is because I can't imagine the other side). I guess I wasn't thinking of it as losing an identity or uniqueness as much as we all become one and the same, while carrying a little bit of everything in us. As for my nephew, well, he's only 12, so who knows what he will choose. Why can't he be many things: black, white, Swedish, Norwegian, English, Irish, German (all part of his family heritage)?

chocolatecherry: I'm in the Pacific NW, too. So far, my nephew expresses some of both black and white cultures (besides just being spoiled rotten), so I don't know if he's old enough yet to lock into anything. He just had his first experience of racism this last summer, and was pretty shocked by it.

My only experience and taste of real discrimination came when I was in Cairo, Egypt for a month. To be the only white face and a western woman on the streets of Cairo, and be harrassed and treated negatively because of that was an eye-opener. I was so enraged a great deal of the time, I thought I was going to have a heart attack.

Most of the Blacks (African Americans) in this country have White in their family history somewhere, I know that I do. Never have I, nor anyone else in my family ever been considered anything other than black.One of the beautiful things about Blackness is that the color range(skin and eye) its extrordinary!........ Laurie B: There (are/were?) laws in America of what constituted a BLK/WHT person, and were here long before I arrived on the scene.

LaurieB, what chocolatecherry is referring to is how society views biracial children, which historically goes back to the "one drop rule." While that rule has been dropped legally, the attitudes about that rule still exist.

Also too, there are white people who are indeed black because their lighter-skinned forebears decided to "pass" rather than live in the confines of what it meant to be black according to the one drop rule.

I saw a story on PBS a couple of months ago about the daughter of a former New York Times reporter/columnist. To the daughter's shock, she found out that her father was actually a light-skinned black man who had cut all ties to his black family in New Orleans. He decided that he would have a better life in NYC as white man. But, his decision came with a price. He had to live a lifetime of denying and lying to his friends and family about who and what he was. He also had to live with the fear of being found out and how people would react to him if they found out that he was black.

I think I saw that story too, Newsgirl1160. It was quite interesting. In fact, I thought I read somewhere that they were considering changing the census form's ethnic (or is it race) boxes, to include mixed race people? I'm not sure where I read that.

It was only about 15 years ago that a black woman I worked with told me about prejudice within the black culture about (her words) "high yellow"? Is that the phrase? I didn't know what she was talking about.

Jam54 Did you know that Northern Africans(Egyptians) are classified as Whites (documented) in this country? I almost fainted, because the woman that informed me of this was darker than me. As for your wonderfully spoiled nephew, The world will let him know where he fits, and then like all of us, he'll take it from there.

Yeah, that's what worries me for my nephew.

When I was in Egypt, I was stunned to learn that there was a "minority" or prejudice against the southern Egyptians (Nubians) who were very black as compared to the northern Egyptians who looked Arab. The Nubians were in the most menial jobs, and treated like dirt. So, travelling around in the Middle East is when I discovered (gawd I'm naive) that in every single country, there is a group that is discriminated against and the "minority". I guess this is mankind's nature.

@chocolatecherry: Oh yeah, the northern (Arab) Egyptians considered themselves superior and not even remotely in the same category as the southern (Nubian) Egyptians. And would be deeply insulted if you didn't recognize the distinction.

@chocolatecherry, you bring out a point that I raised on another thread about Barack Obama. I believe he is the object lesson in how the attitude about the one drop rule is still pervasive.

When people speak about him, they refer to him as either black, biracial, or African-American. No one (including me) EVER refers to him as white, even though it is common knowledge that that is part of his ancestry.

Our notions of race are so deeply ingrained in this country, that even when we know that someone is half white, we still refer to them as black.

The prejudice amongst Blacks is the same prejudice that is in every ethic group, Asian, Mexican, Caucasian you name it! The bias is that the "fairer" is the more desirable.... the more beautiful.However for a brief period in the early 70's during the "Black Is Beautiful" period. Deep shades of Black were considered in vogue. Jam54: High Yellow is what Lena Horne was considered.Unfortunately it was the black standard of beauty (men and women i.e. Cab Calloway) for many decades.

@chocolatecherry: So that is a real term then? Does anybody care anymore about that?

Probably one of the weirdest things I ever saw was while I was in Israel Everyone pretty much had that Mediterranean coloring, and standing on the street was this pure white albino man with the pink eyes and pure white hair. Talk about standing out in a crowd......

Jam54 Yes/Maybe... Remember in the sixties the commercial that stated: "Since I only have one life, let me live it as a blonde" Its kinda like asking do Whites perfer blondes? and if they do does that make everything else, well.... second rate? The term "High Yellow" I feel is a derrogatory slang like the term "Mulatto" used to depict differences amongst blacks.....how do others view the term?

So society views biracial children negatively? Who says? That might have been true 30 years ago, but it's crap now. I think the goal should be to mix it up for the next 30-40 years, then we'll ALL be biracial. You can't very well scream racism when you're all the same color(s). That would really put ol' Jesse and Al in a tizzy though. What - no racism to scream about? Of course they'll be dead by then... so will most of us. Hmm... maybe racism will be too.

LaurieB, I don't think the fact that there are will continue to be more biracial children will change anything. I also do not think that racism will cease to exist in the future because everyone is the same color as more people intermarry. Racisim isn't as simple as you're white and I'm black. Furthermore, humans don't operate that way. As was previously noted, EVERY race and culture has someone that they look down upon. Of course, that's ignorant and down right ridiculous, but that is the way things are.

Also, no one said that society views biracial children negatively. The point is that society-at-large views them as being black. Of course, that's denying part of who those children are and that is wrong, but that's the reality of how race and blackness is perceived in this country.

I dont remember anyone saying that bi-racial children were seen negatively. The point I was making was that bi-racial children historically were seen as Black. Sorry, but I didnt make the laws.Let me make something clear, Bi-racials are not a new phenomenon in this country they are as old as the slave, and the slavemaster. I grew-up with bi-racial children 2 houses down the block, and I never saw them as anything other as Black. I was Black, by this time it was a black neighborhood. Had the world seen them as anything other than Black, there were places outside the Black community that they could have lived maybe? In short, Black Americans historically have always been familiar with Bi-racials.....Its the White community that has to catch up!

Futhermore, YOU ARE AS THE WORLD SEES YOU! Now, if you want to carry a sign clairfying and correcting everyone you come in contact with about your ethnicity, well.... thats your baby! but what is the saying about first impressions?...........

There is no doubt that blacks have come a long ways baby, but they have very far to go as well. We very well may have our first truly black President, and guess what, he wont do any worse job than some of the other whites have done. He may surprise us. I was fortunate enough to leave my small town in the south that the only black adults at school were the janitor, and the only black employees of the town were the garbagemen. I do agree with Obama that the equalizer of the races is education, but unfortunately where I am, it seems the young black males are more concerned with their street credit rather than grade point average. Obviously there are exceptions to all rules. But the answer is yes, the only Blacks on the show have been a girlfriend and a butler, turn the channel to most any other present day program and you will see Blacks portrayed just as Whites.

Liquor: You know that colleges today are full of young Black women, however young black men aren't there in the same numbers...how sad. It makes me wonder what choices these educated Black women will be making as far as life pardners go? I'm sure it will be challenging for them. One thing that I am very proud of is that Obama/Clinton showed future generations of school children that they can aspire to be anything. Hopefully history will account that our generation was seen as the generation that made the difference.

@chocolatecherry: I had never thought of that before, but thinking back on my time in Egypt, you do have that right "you are as the world sees you" whether you view or think of yourself that way or not. I couldn't escape from being viewed as a western white woman, and being frequently treated like some godless whore just because I was from the west and a woman. Pretty much the going attitude was that all western women f--ked anybody because they were immoral and godless, and our American movies being shown there (and Cairo is "westernized and liberal") reiterated that fact. So.....

@chocolatecherry: Like a lot of racial or ethnic terms "high yellow" seems derogatory, and an old-fashioned term. I can't imagine anyone using it now, and even when my friend was telling me about it (because she was light skinned), she may have been referring to a period of its use in her childhood/teens for all I know.

Jam54: White women are judged differently the world over, so I've been told.Did you know that in America some decades ago, it was "rape"and a federal offense if a Black man had "consentual" sex with a White woman? It was believed that no white woman would ever "willing" ( I believe because of the known consequences) sleep with a Black man.

Words are words. Some people think that some words should be eliminated from the English language entirely. I can remember the first time I heard a child say: "That Suks!" I was outraged! I felt that that phrase was totally inappropriate for a child to say. Now, you hear it like, "whats for dinner?" Surprisingly, its not a phrase I hear Black children saying. (although i'm sure they try....)

No, I didn't know it was a federal offense. Jeesh.

Well, there's a lot that's changed in the everyday usage of English. I swear like a truck driver, and I remember my parents never cursing the way I do! It comes so easy with it being in the movies, on tv, etc. But people really did not swear the way they do now. Terrible, terrible habit on my part.

I can cuss with the best of them too! I find as I age cuss words are a little easier to remember, and people don't have to guess at what I'm trying to convey....lol

I scrolled down this thread and thought this was supposed to be about Mad Men (you know, perhaps the issue of Paul's former girlfriend or something). This is some pretty heavy stuff for what I hoped would be a fun (or lighter) thread. Guess not. OK, I am out of here.

Sorry, MM tackles some pretty heavy issues.... What show has he been watching? ..LOL

ChocolateCherry, cool, now I have 2 elections to get to on Nov 4th, LOL. Also, congrats on getting more than 50 responses on your thread. Although a few were double but hey, what are you gonna do? Anyway, your Spanish lesson grade is as follows:
A+ for Effort, Spelling & Humor (your head hurts? Awww! Hahahaha)
A for Content (go get your own car!)
D- for Grammar (sorry man)
A++ for not letting some of these people get under your skin (how do you do that?)

We'll know definitively just how far after Tuesday's election.

Grinandbearit: Its been years since a man has brought tears to my eyes, but just thinking that Obama could possibly be the next President of the United States stikes something so deep in me that it makes me cry. Either way the election goes I guarantee there will be tears! Yours, Mine, and Everybody elses!

Tinybear: did i ask you to go get my car in Spanish? Boy, i knew it was bad, but whew!..... Humor is the key to getting along... and when that doesn't work......start cussing!

How do you mean "has the Black Community suffered?" How is the black community not still intact? plus blacks can and do live just about whereever they want as far as I am aware (I live in NY and have lived in several other parts of the country (U.S.). As far as Harlem (NY) - is is the new "uptown" in part since Bill Clinton (America's first "black President") opened his office there and a community-wide gentrification has taken place. It's great - but I doubt white people would be welcomed there with open arms as full time residents. It is still a tight "black community". Even within majority (number-wise) "white" communities where there are non-whites - the other cultures and colors have more than maintained their community spirit and cultures and...ethnicities to the point where they refuse to learn to speak the English language - which I find abhorent. If they want to live in this country and live the American dream - become a part of America and learn the language as well as they'd learned to use the $$.
I don't see how being black in America has any 'setback' anymore - at least in larger cities and in fact, thanks to EEOC and Affirmative Action , etc. has given blacks opportunities above and beyond what whites have been offered - even when they didn't merit them. Let drop the crutch, OK?

I'm a proffessional server in S.F I'm Black and
very, very, good at my work. Recently I was
harrassed, attacked and then fired! because the
owner of the very tony resturant I was working in
decided that I would make a very good servant
in his home (sort of like a Butler) and would'nt
take No! for a answer! The frightening part was
that he seemed to believe that there was nothing
wrong with his behavior, and that there was something wrong with me because I couldn't seem
to understand what a big chance opportunity this
was for me.
The way the Black actors are writtten in on this show I believe is the way a lot of republicans would like to see blacks in general, seen but not heard, and useful but not human.!

dugga: you have to remember - even though he defected - Colin Powell owes his entire career to Republican Presidents - Reagan named him a 4-star General; George H.W. Bush named hiim National Security Advisor and current George W. Bush of course, named him Secretary of State ... so I think Republicans have been more than "fair" and given plenty of opporunity to blacks. When blacks and others stop blaming other people for being fired or for not getting opportunities or for the practice of slavery over 150 years ago, then perhaps we can ALL move on...

Hola, y'all. I think, more than racism, America is obsessed with classism.. What we really fear is poor people. We have always embraced wealthy people of any culture.

@dugga: Sounds like your employer FORGOT this is a democracy and you have the freedom of choice to work where and with whom you want. Jeesh. Sorry you were fired (not the best time to lose your job), but hopefully you'll get a new one with a more decent manager/owner.

madfordon.. WOW.. Colin Powell is ONE AA person.. Condoleeza is ONE AA person. So you mean to tell me the "republicans" have done much for ALL Black people based on these two? lol come on man!

Why is it ok for Jewish people to still not be over The Holocaust, but Blacks should move on from slavery?

I tell you what, let a bunch of Black people come to your house, sell your kids off, rape your wife, and make you work the "field" for a few years and let me know how soon you get over that..

Its amazing to hear Whites say that slavery was 150 years ago, and to move on! My grandmother taught school in Southern Illinois through segegation, and then intergration,and finally until her retirement in the early 1970's.During the intergration process my grandmother had to endure the humiliation of White parents coming to the school and "physically" removing their children from her class. It wasn't until my 30's that I could look at my grandma, and understand what a truly remarkable woman she truly was.She loved children and dedicated her life to teaching them...White and Black. On a happy note: The small town in Illinois where she had taught for so many years sent for her, (at the time she lived in Los Angeles) and honored her, for her years of service to the community.She was very surprised and kept asking "what will I wear" she was 84 at the time. My grandma passed in 1990.

The BlackJoan: Don't get me wrong - I think the way the black people were treated (WHEN they were trated badly -which wasn't all the time as you know) during slavery was unforgivable. I also lived in Mississippi as a small child in the mid-late 1950s and you know what that was all about - but I had parents who taught me to treat black people the same way I would treat anyone else so that is why I don't understand holding on to these things. As for the Jews - same thing - let the Holocaust go for God's sake - it was horrible beyond belief - but notice how you only hear about 6M Jews being exterminated? when 11M people were exterminated under Hitler? what about the pther 5M? priests, gypsies, the deformed, other Christians who didn't conform, probably blacks as a matter of fact, etc. Move on or we can't move as a united race. If you REALLY want to get rid of racism, we have to let go of these things.

P.S. the intergration process wasn't 150 years ago. In some places it was happening during the period of the MM time line.

MADFORDON: What about KATRINA and American-born Blacks being referred to as "REFUGEES" as if they were from another country.

Thanks for your comments kids! But hey Madfordon, Black Americans have trouble getting over slavery because America has trouble admitting that it made a BIG MISTAKE a while back! Its sort of like cheating on one's wife (Don!)
if you don't or can't admit it, and don't have the Balls
to accept the honest reaction of the people or person you wronged, the undercurrent of quilt and shame with just destroy EVERYTHING. How can
we hold ourselves up as the moral compass of the world if we(remember blacks kept slaves too, after all, slaves were a status symbol)can't admit our
mistakes as a nation and move on ! Hurt feelings
can lead you to have bad sex in strange rooms, or
can lead a nation to pick on the French, for gods sake!

choclatecherry: your grandmother sounds like a truly remarkable woman and an intelligent one and the parents who removed their children from her class did not only a disservice to their children (by teaching them bigotry but by denying them what would have been a good education). But these people are the truly ignornat ones. It's massively unfortunate that people such as your grandmother and your family and many others have had to endure such idignities, but I don't know how we are going to "set it right" unless we try to move on and accept one another as equal yet differnt perhaps as we do with other cultures if it has to be - I don't think it should even be that way. I don't like the way black American call themselves African-American. Why the distinction? If you went to Africa - they wouldn't consider them African - you'd be an American! Why can't Americans be Americans and people just grow up and stop bigotry in its tracks. Sadly, there are too many ignorant people still out there who use their ignorance as power over others to keep people down; what do you think they have done to women for such a long time? Yougn women of today have no idea what it was like for women to even dream of succeeding in business in years past a la Peggy. They take it for granted that women can have it all today - it wasn;t that long ago that that was a hard fought for "right". My two cents. I don't mean to insult anyone - honestly.

Chocolatecherry: I think the 'refugee' moniker meant they were out of their homes, no?

I tried to stay away from this topic but I can't!

The word "refugee" usually has the meaning of one who is seeking "refuge" in another nation due to political, social or economic turmoil. An example is a Cuban citizen seeking refuge in the USA due to Communism in Cuba. To me, it's very asshole-y to refer to Americans escaping from New Orleans, LA to Houston, TX, going from one part of the nation to another, as "refugees." That's disrespectful!! I could see using terms like "evacuees" or "escapees," but "refugees" was just wrong!!!!

As to women in advertising....There were women like Shirley Polykoff and Mary Wells Lawrence making their mark in the field in the time before and during MM. Helen Gurley Brown was highly successful in the ad game years before she took over the reins at Cosmopolitan. As a matter fact, in 1963, a black woman by the name of Caroline Robinson Jones became a copywriter at JWT and later was an exec at DDBO in the 1970s.

I'm not sure why MM presents women in advertising as an anomaly....

madfordon: You're not the first person I've heard say that they disliked the term African-American. My ex-neighbor went as far as to say that she was going to start referring to herself as Scottish-American........ I lived in Atlanta Ga for awhile (about 1 year) It was there that I discovered that Black people come in many different varieties! I met Black people from places I had never even heard of, or thought other types of people lived there like Belize, or all those Islands in the Caribbean, there are Black Puerto Ricans, Black Mexicans (although they prefer not to admit it,but you can do a search and find it to be true) In short, there are alot of different Black folks! So, the Black people whos ancestry originated in Africa, but can only trace their roots as far as America (without DNA) due to few records, and mixing with White Americans....hence the term African- Americans. Now I dont have a degree in Anthropology, so if someone has a better explanation...... go for it!

Dugga: I think the term now is Personal Assistant, The Motto of the Ritz Carlton is: "We Are Ladies And Gentlemen, Serving Ladies And Gentleman"

I’m just your average light brown Mexican/American. I would totally admit to being a Black Mexican, if I was one. Black/Brown Power! BTW, I found a 24/7 mad men chat room. I can’t embed the site, but it’s @ meebo.com just Browse Rooms under “TV and Movies”. It’s pretty cool, just thought I’d let you know. (yeah I’m talking to you Chocolate Cherry!) God, I hope Figaro doesn’t see this!!

@madfordon, I'm black and I don't call myself an "African-American" unless I'm filling out official paperwork that refers to me as such. It's not as if all the Black folks in the United States got together and decided to call themselves "African-Americans." That's the name that so-called "leaders" (and EVEN don't get me started on how annoying it is to be told who my "leader' is just simply because they've anointed themselves as such or because the media says they're a "leader") decided to call us. If you want to know what I want to be called, you can ask me. I'm quite capable of speaking for myself.

Furthermore, black people are not homogenized. We don't all think, act, talk, or behave in the same way. For people to characterize all black people that way is just insulting. It would be equally as insulting and ignorant for me to assume that all white people have the same thinking and feelings as David Duke and the Metzgers, simply because they're white.

Refugee is a word I've seen often in the American historical record. People used it to describe themselves or others who were seeking escape from floods, fires, Indian attacks, epidemics, and invading armies (Southerners who were escaping Sherman for instance would say "We refugeed to...). I've not seen it used negatively and I think the only reason people think it applies to foreigners seeking refuge is because that's how we've heard it used more recently in the last decades by the media. It means what it means: One who seeks refuge. Nothing racial or devisive or "other" about it.

Lilyann: with all due respect, I haven't heard the term used to describe Whites when in 1980 a volcano erupted in the United States, I can see Mt. St. Helens from my window! and I do remember many had to seek "refuge"

Tinybear? have you ever seen a Black Mexican? just curious.

tinybear; My friend Esmerelda said that her husbands family initially had reservations about their marriage, because her skin was darker then they preferred. That was the first time it was brought to my attention that Mexicans also played the color game. Another friend of mine Lupe, had a brother-in law so dark I couldnt stop looking at him. His complexion was a beautiful hershey-bar brown, but I just never knew Mexicans came in that particular shade of brown. P.S. I have also seen White Mexicans with blue eyes

Chocolatecherry. I've no problem with being someones personal assistant, before I started in the resturant world I was the P.A for three top execs in S.F. but, I got paid very well for my services and they were very much Gentlemen, this guy was just money with legs, and many people
think that money can get you anything, but it can't buy you manners if you didn't have then when you walked in!! but on a more interesting point,
When Obama wins on thursday, it's going to have a very severe effect on some of my younger brothers, you, know what I mean, the ones who only seem to be able to begin and end half a sentence with @#$% and who wear their pants, around their knees. If the President is the Father of the country and the First Lady is the Mother, and they're both Tall, Good looking ,articulate and
dress well..... Opps,looks like a fashion revolution in the making,! shades of Camelot!

Chocolatecherry. I've no problem with being someones personal assistant, before I started in the resturant world I was the P.A for three top execs in S.F. but, I got paid very well for my services and they were very much Gentlemen, this guy was just money with legs, and many people
think that money can get you anything, but it can't buy you manners if you didn't have then when you walked in!! but on a more interesting point,
When Obama wins on thursday, it's going to have a very severe effect on some of my younger brothers, you, know what I mean, the ones who only seem to be able to begin and end half a sentence with @#$% and who wear their pants, around their knees. If the President is the Father of the country and the First Lady is the Mother, and they're both Tall, Good looking ,articulate and
dress well..... Opps,looks like a fashion revolution in the making,! shades of Camelot!

Chocolatecherry. I've no problem with being someones personal assistant, before I started in the resturant world I was the P.A for three top execs in S.F. but, I got paid very well for my services and they were very much Gentlemen, this guy was just money with legs, and many people
think that money can get you anything, but it can't buy you manners if you didn't have then when you walked in!! but on a more interesting point,
When Obama wins on thursday, it's going to have a very severe effect on some of my younger brothers, you, know what I mean, the ones who only seem to be able to begin and end half a sentence with @#$% and who wear their pants, around their knees. If the President is the Father of the country and the First Lady is the Mother, and they're both Tall, Good looking ,articulate and
dress well..... Opps,looks like a fashion revolution in the making,! shades of Camelot!

Chocolate Cherry, to answer your first question, I saw a dark Mexican (my dad) every day growing up. As for your second question, I can not speak for all Mexicans but as you know, in every race there are as many shades of racism as there are skin tones.

Luckily we were never taught to hate or to look for hate in others. Both my parents were born in Mexico, both came here as young adults (legally, for all you haters) both are naturalized citizens, both have ALWAYS been self employed and have employed others. With that said, I have cousins with naturally blonde hair & green eyes, on my mom’s side. My dad’s family is from some mountains in deep Mexico, I am willing to bet he is darker than a certain Chocolate Cherry we all know. Many people confuse him with being from India because of his features and dark skin . Our family albums look like a United Colors of Beneton advertisement! I have experienced people calling babies in our family “El Negro” meaning “The Black One.” My dad’s nickname growing up was “El Moreno” which means “The Dark One.” I think it’s like anything else, it all depends on how you were raised and socialized. Just because people recognize difference in color doesn’t necessarily means they are racist.

(I think I read somewhere that Eva Langoria’s nickname growing up was “La Fea” or “Ugly One,” if she’s ugly, what chance do the rest of us have?)

Tinybear:If someone refers to a baby as El Negro thats a little on the derrogatory side...Black as a descriptive word is never used in a positive way...(black market, black sheep, black plague, black magic, black widow, ect.) I think people notice differences in color in order to stereo-type, and catagorize. I'm not naive, I know that you have to notice color for descriptive purposes (like telling the police who mugged you...lol) but, more than anything, I think that color consciousness is a mindset.

Dugga: Will Some Body Please Tell Our Young Black Men To........PULL UP THEIR PANTS!!! I hope MM fashions catch on, and hit the main stream. I was on the Max (light rail) a couple of weeks ago, and a young man was struggling with his baby and the stroller, as he went to position the baby on his hip to exit the train, his pants fell down around his ankles!...I was mortified! And wouldn't you know we were the only two black people on the train. So I asked the young man,as he pulled up his pants, in the sweetest, most syruppy Southern voice I could muster; "Baby?" "Now how you gonna raise a baby if you can't keep up your own pants?" He smiled and said you're right.... I think he got it.

Chocolatecherry: I second that! It's way past time for the pants at half-mast craze to go away!! I personally don't know how they can stand it, when my pants are too loose it makes me crazy.

This is a great discussion here, nobody has gotten ugyly. As a white child of the south in the 60's, I defintely had a view of racism for real. People that haven't lived during the time I don't think can really understand how insidious it was (and still is). It was just ingrained that black folks were second-class citizens only good for service jobs and to keep their place.

I don't show who started the "African American" phrase, but it's just too cumbersome for me. I don't think anyone is offended by the terms "black" or "white"

I had the same thoughts about the bi-racial folks too - how come they are always referred to as black? They are just as much white as black - Obama's mother was as white as me, why is he automatically a completely different race? As someone else mentinoed, the majority of the black people in the US have some white or native american heritage in their background as well. How can we keep our uniqueness withouth being pidgeonholed into one category (race) or another? It must go back to the "one drop" rule.

Another description I heard for light skinned blacks in additionto "high yellow" - "bright" has anyone heard that one? I overheard some black people describing another guy - "you know, that bright boy from Bringhamption!" I though that one was good.

Chocolate, (May I call you Chocolate?)

You are right when you say that (some) Mexicans play the "color game." For example, my super dark Mexican friend and her super light, mistaken for a white girl, sister had these horrific nicknames for each other growing up. One was Niggy and one was Piggy. (It hurts just to type this!) Today they are both in law enforcement, one Sheriff, one Police. The still call each other those names! I hear those words and cringe at both, every time. They just laugh at me and tell me to get over it. I think the intention of some words like “El Negro” etc also needs to be taken into consideration. I don’t think my grandma intended to be racist against her own son calling him “El Moreno”; as a matter of fact he was her favorite.

WAIT! You think that's bad, How about my aunt that calls her kid "El Gordo!" or "The FAT One!" Talk about future eating disorders! But that's a whole other therapy session! :)

Thank God my dad used to call me "La Reina" or "The Queen." That's right suckers! LOL

Ok Chocolate Cherry, now it's YOUR TURN to answer a question on behalf of all Black people...ready? Does the following situation ever happen to you... My best friend, who is Black (we came to the decision to call her a Nubian Princess, I thought African American took too much time, and she thought Black took too little, but I digress!) Anyway, my best friend and I work for the same company. We noticed that when some people talk to her, they will throw a "GIRLFRIEND" or "GIRRRRRRRL" at her. Because we are at work, most of the time we can control ourselves, sometimes we just fall out laughing. These are people who would never use those terms in their every day life. Of course, sometimes I have to bust their chops and say, "Hey! What? I can't be your girlfriend too?" To which they are almost always so embarrassed that they don't know what to say. She's not the only one of my friends who has experienced this but this is the only example that I witness on a regular basis.

So my question to you, do you find that people try to "Talk Black" at you? If so, how do you deal with it? (I would choose a little light to medium violence but that's just me! LOL )

Tinybear: Nooooo! I'm not falling for that one! Why are you trying to get me cussed out? You know I cant speak for "all" black people! ....uh huh...... I will try to anwser your question from "my" perspective though. It all depends....If a White person talks to me emmulating Black slang, I have 2 schools of thought (1.) Is that the White/whatever person is trying to convey that he/she "feels me" or trying "in the best way they know how" to say" I really like you!" Adult people react like kids sometimes not knowing how to repond affectionately to others ( I remember as a kid beating-up the boy that I liked )....same rule applies (2.) ( this one we may have a little problem, and i might have to cuss-out the White/whatever person...no offense) Is when a White/whatever person in conversation begins to use Black slang as a mockery/descriptive put-down..... In all fairness though, when a Black person talks to me, and he or she is emmulating a White person( what I call "aahking"ex. the word "talking"........ "Taahking") I look deep into their eyes to see if its an act, or conditioning... I turn my head as if i'm looking behind me and then give them a puzzled expression....if its an act, it embarrasses them back into reality. if its conditioning they don't have a clue

@chocolatecherry: Have to laugh at your appeal over the oversized pants issue. It reminds me of the Beatles-era/sixties when my mother used to take the side seam in on my brother's Levis so that they would be skin-tight, and he'd have to lie down on the bed to pull them on. He might as well have worn tights!

Got to realize folks that being concerned about someones color and not their culture means you miss out. On a purely selfish, note I've always been grateful to live in this imperfect country and meet
so many people from so many places and
constantly have my perceptions of whats, what
over turned. The world walks through the streets
of Berkeley, the other day I over heard a Chinese
family trying to decide if they were going to have
Indian or Thai food after their kids brazilian martial
arts classes.!
I'm glad we're talking about fashion.; nothing bothers me more than to see a girl who has obviously put a bit to thought into what shes wearing(yea girls!)and to see her "friend"(of any
race) dressed like a slub!! Sometimes, guys
we don't hold up our side!!!

@Pink63, to answer your question, I've never heard of "bright" being used to describe a light-skinned black person. I've only heard " high yellow" and "light-skinned."

I'M SORRY PINK63: Yes i've heard the term "bright skinned" before, but only when conversing with other Blacks. I have never heard a White person describe a Black person as "bright"

Dugga:WE ALL have predjudices okay...I'll share mine with you because I'm not perfect by a long shot!!..... My issues with other colors/cultures is that it seems that no matter where in the world a person originates,whether they crossed the border, or came upon the shores, Once they are in America, they take the position as being "better" than Blacks, (African-Americans) that have been here for generations. Many of these people can't even speak English! so how do they take the position as being "better" than the people that had a hand in building this country? Where do people get these ideas? (as they go through immigrations? what?) and YES, i'll say it ....its painful, because we've had to endure mistreatment from Whites, and now be expected to take discrimination, or be "classified" with anyone that sails, swims, floats, flies,or climbs, into America.Not to mention the group already here that now wants to acknowledge both sides of their race (bi-racials) for an even larger divide.(check-out french creoles.com) If this is a discussion lets keep it real!

Hi everyone!
I have really enjoyed reading the comments in this thread.

I am a white skinned American of Irish heritage.
I share this because my great-grandparents came to this Country to flee the hatred and mistreatment of the British in their own country.
When they came to America they found hatred, and predjudice here also.
"Irish Need Not Apply" was a sign they found in many store windows. Most of the Irish at that time could only find work as domestics, or in the lowest paying labor jobs.
The Irish were depicted as "drunk, stupid, monkeys".
It took generations for Irish people in America to find their place, and to be proud to be Irish.

I realize that I may never be able to completely understand what African Americans have experienced because of the color of their skin.
I have often wondered what it would be like in this Country if all of us had a different colored skin based on our ethnic backround. For example, if Irish had green skin...

I was raised to believe all people are equal, maybe because of my Irish roots, I don't know...

Chocolatecherry, you are so right!
The immigrants who were here before each new wave of immigrants tended to believe they were superior, that they were the real Americans.

The only true Americans, as far as I know are the Native Americans.
The rest of us came because we chose to, or were forced to.

Americans will make history on November 4th! I can't remember a Presidential race where race, gender, or age have been so prominent.

I think of the MM generation when in 1960 an Irish Catholic president was elected.
My relatives (who were adults during that time) speak of the hatred and fear of a "Catholic" being in The White House!
It seems impossible for me to imagine that religion was so important in an election of a President!

Look how far we have come...

Sorry for rambling on...
I look forward to hearing from everyone!

The Catholic Church is supporting Mccain/Palin and please don't get me started on how the Catholic Church has "embraced" the Hispanic community unlike they have ever embraced the African- American community. When I've questioned that fact, I was told it was because Hispanics were "traditionally" Catholics. So?..... my thoughts were.... "YES, but in "their" country!" LOL ....( What were the Blacks "traditionally" in Louisiana?) Seems that in order to compete with the Hispanic religious culture, some (not all) Black Catholic churches have adopted an AFROCENTRIC approach. Incorporating KWANZA celebrations after Advent, ect. which is fine, but I'm as familiar with Africa, as I am Finland! Hey, moral of the story? Being Black ain't always convenient.

60'schild I was speaking of historically, was speaking of the present day.

60'schild: let me get it right this time.....I was NOT speaking of historically, I was speaking of Present Day.

I lived and worked overseas in a Latin American country, I never heard skin color talked about as much here as I did in that country. Skin color determines everything there - the darker the skin tone, the more "looked down upon" was the person. Parents would actually shun children with dark skin tone and try to keep their kids out of the sun, not like here where white folks try to get as tan as they can.

Remember when our troops were in Somalia? Some of the American blacks were stunned to hear themselves called the N word and "ugly" by the natives they were there to help.

As far as the racial makeup of this country, I don't think the Latinos, Asians, Turks, Arabs, etc. who have been coming here the past 30 years will have the same attitudes that the white and black America has towards race - so, it's going to be an entirely new ballgame.

Regarding the question asked by this thread - I think the present presidential campaign answers that.

I've been black for a while (except for that one time
in a bar,oh never mind!) and I've never heard of an
african american person being called "bright" as
a discription of light color. would'nt supprise me
though: I reallized as a child I could only spend
so much time worrying about how others saw me.
Chocolate Cherry I've no idea why so many people
from different cultures pop up here and start honestly believing that they're better/superior or more whatever, than african americans. In the face
of this, I have to go with the little speech in "Be Cool" that the gang leader spouts just before he
"pops" the russian mobster. I totally agree with
Spike Lee in one of his films where he has the Korean grocer say "hey I'm a N....R too!!
Tuesday's(not Thursday,opps)going to be quite
interesting! We'll go to bed in the 19th century and
hopefully finally wake in the 21st! I can just hear
the short hairs in certain circles (Males and Females, the stories I could tell you about some of
the Republicans I've met) crackleling with stress.
I guess a mixed race president won't be so bad;
the comic possiblities alone make him better than
mac-whats his name. too bad about the Hillary thing though; it would have been nice to have a
"Mother" of our country.

I wanted to add a little bit of the histroic perspective about some immigrants thinking that they were "better" than blacks.

In the early 20th century, when you had a lot of Italians and Irish coming to the United States, a little film called, "Birth of a Nation" or "The Clansman "was a released. The film was not only a hit with Americans, but also with immigrants. The purpose of the film was to emphasize the inferiority of the black race to the folks already here and to instruct newcomers on race and racial attitudes here in America. A lot of immigrants, who had never seen black people before (and perhaps didn't even know of their existence), were taught from that movie that blacks were lazy, stupid, criminal, and sex-crazed. Furthermore, new immigrants were also taught that they needed to protect their women from the sex-crazed black man.

If someone wants to assimilate and be accepted, they may take on certain attitudes, for good and for bad, in order to fit in. A lot of immigrants, not being familiar with blacks and who wanted to take on the culture and attitude of their adopted home really believed what they saw being portrayed and that it was the "American way" to look down on black people..

The new immigrants will soon come to realize the situation, so let me give you an example: As I've stated earlier, I live in the Pacific Northwest. For some reason they have a very large Russian Community here. I dont know, but I don't think you can get more Caucasian than a Russian?... lol however, they are ridiculed by some of the White community for not taking part of the larger community,. (They are a very close-knit community patronizing their own churches, businesses, and like in the old country marrying their own, that includes many of their children born and educated here) They are also quite familiar with the Dept. of Social Services, and utilize many of the chairitable organizations in the area. I also remember many years ago living in Northern Wisconsin "late 70's" (Green bay area) and finding it peculiar that Native Americans were disliked by the White community. I had never experienced Native American culture prior to living in Green Bay, so I had only felt racism as it applied to Blacks..... Green Bay LOVES their Packers, so my experience there was quite nice, especially since Blackness wasnt an issue. Many assumed I was a Packer wife, since the ball players lived there at times during the year back then. I did however get to see racism from a different prespective, being on the outside looking in,and I could totally empathize

Newsgirl: did you know that they have Black Italians? Italians, like Mexicans prefer not to discuss the Blackness of their country. It might have made it a little more difficult to assimilate in America as Whites had they claimed their Black Sicillians.

Newsgirl: did you know that they have Black Italians? Italians, like Mexicans prefer not to discuss the Blackness of their country. It might have made it a little more difficult to assimilate in America as Whites had they claimed their Black Sicillians.

HOW FAR HAVE BLACKS COME? did anyone see on the news tonite, about a woman in Grosse Pointe Michigan denying 4-5 yr. old children Halloween candy if their parents supported Obama? UNBELIEVABLE!.....I know that this may have been an isolated incident, but what it also shows is that racism is alive and kicking in 2008 and its not apart of our past, its here and NOW!.This incident makes me wonder how many Blacks may have been mistreated, or lynched due to very similar circumstances (mindset)

@chocolatecherry Yes. I did know about black Sicilians, as well as other blacks in Southern Europe. But, with the exception of the lead singer of Thin Lizzie, I don't know of a lot of black Irish people. And, somehow, I think there were very few black people in Ireland in the beginning of the 20th Century. If I'm wrong, I would welcome someone enlightening and correcting me.

And to your point chocolateberry, less than 10 percent of the Africans that were transported to the Americas as slaves arrived in the United States. The majority of them actually ended up in the Caribbean, Brazil, and coast of Latin America. So, it would only make sense that you would have blacks in countries such as Colombia, Mexico, Venezuela, and Panama.

Newsgirl1160: you're probably right, but 10% of what number "pure" African? I bet that number tripled when bred with Whites in America, Also, there was never a doubt that Mexico, Central and South American Countries have Black folks, but my point was that when in America many dont acknowledge that fact, once they learn attitudes toward darker races.

Newsgirl1160: thanks for your posts! very informative

chocolatecherry,

You are so full of hate and spite, why do you stay in this country? Where on earth do you get all your misinformation? Do you communicate with Obama's pastor? It must be awful to live with such paranoia.

The Catholic church does not support either presidential candidate. The Catholic church in this country has a long history of siding with blacks in social justice issues - not perfectly, but just the number of Catholic schools in black neighborhoods that have been kept open despite financial distress illustrates this commitment. My home diocese has been supporting a predominantly black K-8 for over 30 years because they refuse to shut the doors to parents who want their children to have an alternative to the local public schools - 90% of those kids and their parents are not Catholic but they get a free education. I could name dozens of other examples that I know of personally.

For that matter, why shouldn't the Catholic Church embrace the Latino community? They are Catholic - blacks for the most part are not.

Regarding your grandmother's experience in southern Illinois, as a native Illinoisian, I would say that southern Illinois really is just Kentucky North - it still is. They even "talk southern." Kudos to your grandmother for being couragenous enough to be herself and do her thing despite small minds around her. I can also say that not all white people in southern Illinois are racists.

What federal law prohibited sexual intercourse between white women and black men? There were state laws that prohibited sexual activity between whites and blacks but they applied to both men and women. I'm not aware of any federal law - please enlighten me.

You need to be aware that not all white slaveowners slept with their female black slaves.

What information do you have about black freedmen who owned slaves? Did they all rape their female slaves? Oh, that's right, in your world, only white people do wrong and the blacks are all pure.

Regarding the OJ business, of course those blacks were cheering him for getting away with killing 2 white people - do you think they would have cheered if Nicole and Ron had been black? We shouldn't even mention OJ - he had way too much air time in the past and is a worthless excuse for a human being. The justice OJ got was a rich man's justice more specifically celebrity justice. There are multiple studies showing that the factor determining what kind of "justice" you get in the American legal system is economic status. It outweighs gender, age and race. There is no justice in this present system. If OJ had been a truckdriver and not a football player, his butt would be in jail. People get away with murder everyday, OJ is not the first.

I won't even start on the way this culture idolizes their sports "heroes," beginning in high school with all the crap jocks get away with.

chocolatecherry, I was speaking of the original Africans that were transported through the Middle Passage. Less than 10% of those Africans transported to the Americas made it to the United States. Where did the other 90% go? Obviously, if you look at the map of the Middle Passage, you would see that there are a lot of countries that were infused with Africans, Yet, now, a lot of those nations have amnesia and are trying to deny part of their ancestry and heritage.

A year ago, the Miami Herald ran a series about Afro-Latin Americans (http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedia/news/afrolatin/index.html). It was very interesting.

ChocolateCherry: No response to Chopin? Hmmmmm........

No offense LaurieB, but wasn't it you who stated on another of CC's threads that you would never ever reply to this poster again? CC was being their usual angry self (which you pointed out) and then when their barrage took off in your direction, you swore you would never respond to them or on the same thread as them ever again. It seems, LB, and I hate to say it because you have had some good postings, that you are trying to incite something here. Why not just let sleeping dogs lie and not try and tweak CC. CC is obviously an angry person (one minute she or he is angry and the next, nearly a pacifist, so it makes me think of they are a definite troll), but when someone posts as you have it almost seems you want to inflame the situation. I for one agree wholeheartedly with Chopin on this one (unless of course, Chopin and CC are one in the same; so many here have a couple of different screen names although EVERYONE claims they don't - chuckle). Anyway, why keep the bickering or hostility going? Let it pass and keep to your original mantra that you would never again deal with CC in any way. So many here say they are not coming back or they will never do this or that, and then the next thing you know, here they are again! Just a thought.

Whats the Catholic Church's stand on ABORTION?....What is OBAMA''S? The "church" is the PEOPLE not the building! I've heard Whites say that they didnt know that there were Black Catholics....As far as Catholics being in poor Urban areas yes they always have been, Its no secret they were in the adoption"business" My mother was born in MISRECORDIA, a Catholic unwed mothers home, in 1936.As far as a Free Education, I wish I had known about that, when it was brought to my attention that a parish member was working in the school cafeteria trying to work-off overdue tuition, but was falling further behind. I anonymously paid the "back tuition" to save the single mother from the embarrasment of parish gossip. Many Hispanics are leaving the Catholic Church, basically because of the Churches view on birth control (the rhythm method) and second, and third generation hispanics "Ain't hearing it".......I lived in KENTUCKY 1989-2004 my mother is buried there, so there is little.....very little you can tell me about the state. As far as "my" grandmother.... your opinion is as irrelevant as dogie doo doo, and you aren't worth the ground she walked on........as far as the federal law? do the research! but i will share this... that when there were arguments saying that White Men should be held accountable likewise.It was ignored. If you are Interested? do the research! Did i say all slave owners slept with slaves? when? Black Freemen owning slaves? study-up on LOUISIANA HISTORY.....Ever hear of EMMITT TILL? read-up on it, it was a fasinating story then we'll talk about O.J..........If you want to converse with me you need to read.

Newsgirl1160: what set-off Chopin47 was my thanking you for your informative info.I guess he/she felt sided.(wasn't my intention, but how would i know what sets someone off ) But again, thanks for your insight, and cordial manner.

Laurie B. : I pity you, because you love a good fight! Have you considered masterbation? Seriously, because you come off as frustrated, and needing a release. I wish you the best!... P.S. I nominate you as POST MODERATOR

yousaidit: angry? who me? nah.... I'd rather laugh, better on the "old bod" when i'm angry people usually know by the obsene language I use. haven't used it here, so not angry..... but if you think so .......g- f--k y---s--f..........lol just joking!

YOUSAIDIT: when you write as though you are having a conversation, its very difficult to monitor the tone. after all these aren't "LOVE LETTERS" these are issues that people feel passionate about, and most would probably agree that its hard to type emotion without sounding extreme. Now, let me say this as neutrally to you as possible... Your opinion belongs to you. I have no control over how you feel, nor the opinion that you post, however your (and no one elses) opinion has any affect on my life whatsoever, therefore it would be usless to display an "angry" disposition. I am not a professional writer, and as a matter of fact sometimes when typing I am doing other things (watching TV) So I don't really mind you trying to psycho analyze me, its kinda fun imagining where (location) its really coming from. I bet i'd be surprised, but don't believe for one second that you've got it right, because you don't.

Hi Newsgirl1160!
Ireland has been invaded by so many countries, it's hard to keep track!!
There actually is a term "black Irish". As far as I know, this comes from the mix of the natives of Spain and Ireland. Spain being one of the countries that invaded Ireland.
These are the Irish with dark hair and eyes.
Then there are those with read hair, with freckles, those with dark hair and blue eyes...
Ireland shows how multicultural it is by the differences in it's people.

And religion plays a major role. I think that is unique for Ireland.
The North primarily Protestant, the South, Catholic.
Yet all are descended from Pagans!

Oh well...anyone else?

@chocolatecherry, you're quite welcome. I pride myself on trying to be dignified in everything I do. I believe in "arguing" my points passionately, sometimes firmly, but ALWAYS with evidence and logic. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong in my methods, but, I've found that often times it's just best to agree to disagree.

Race and religion are difficult subjects to discuss in a cordial manner because there is so much emotion attached to both those topics. But, if we're all adults here, then we should be able to discuss difficult topics as grown-ups should we not?

@60'schild, Thank you for answering my initial question. But, I would like a little clarification. If I understood you correctly, the term "black Irish" refers to people who are darker in complexion, not necessarily people who are of African descent. Where did that term come from and how are those so-called "black Irish" treated?

I read an article in the New York Times that said that Ireland has a lot of African immigrants who are now having first generation "African-Irish" (that's my terminology not the Times') children. The reporter talked to a little boy who was of African descent, but he considered himself to be no different than his white Irish friends. It was quite enlightening.

Also too, in relation to other comments on this thread about how racism exists in all cultures, there was an article in the New York Times yesterday about Japanese Brazilians (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/02/world/asia/02japan.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss). I enjoyed it because it gave me a new perspective on how race and culture is viewed in other countries.

Chocolatecherry, thank you for responding in your usual ignorant way, displaying all your racism and shortsightedness. You answered none of the points I brought up. My reference to a free education was pertinent to the many Catholic schools I know of that operate in the 3 dioceses that I know of. My own education was not free and I worked cleaning classrooms and working in the school cafeteria to pay for my high school tuition - no complaint and no problem about that. It's not just black people who have to work for what they get in life - and some of us don't have a box to check.

Wrap yourself in your hatred because obviously you have no one in your life who cares about you or loves you. No one could get through your hatefulness.

You say I have to read? You totally ignore any questions that require proof and evidence, you just make personal attacks. I am amazed at how naive some of the posters on this board are, that they take everything you say as bonafide. It's nice for you have found some commiserators here.

BTW, you are completely misusing the term "black Irish." But, go forth in your ignorance.

chopin47: I like your avatar of Chopin, by the way. Anyway, do yourself a huge favor. Go and read the thread entitled "Trolls (they're real)" on this board. Then go to the web site that is mentioned in the initial posting, www.flayme.com. There are various links on the site, with one of the best being all about Internet Trolls. The site outlines so many things pertaining to negative postings (and trolls and trolling) and perhaps when you read it, you will decide that posting responses to some posters is not worth your time or trouble. There is one very interesting point on www.flayme.com, pointing out that Internet Trolls like responses of any type and cannot differentiate between positive and negative ones. In other words, all they want is the response itself and they are off and running. You will notice that there is also a posting (thread) that was begun and which nominates other posters for "Board Moderator," and asks you to vote for them. To reply to this post would be sheer folly. The poster (troll) desperately craves responses/attention.
The key is to ignore and let the Troll die (referred to on www.flayme.com as an "It"). Anyway, just some suggestions that I hope prove helpful. It is so tempting to try and "Outflame" another poster and become the "Flamemaster," but really, don't you have other more pressing business to attend to? Like listening to Chopin, perhaps! Again, like the avatar.

chopin47: And please remember too, that you are trying to be logical with a poster who is illogical (and is eager to use any argument against you. They pride themselves in being some sort of Flamemaster, however they do a poor job of it because their anger and irrationality always get in the way. You can begin to spot the nut jobs if you just look at all their rants. (I mean, I am sure you already realize this but I'm just saying...) Someone once told me NEVER to talk logic to the illogical mind, for how can you make sense of something (or to someone) who is so totally illogical? You can't. Please stop trying.

Yes, I Started the "Vote For Post Moderator" because i found, that you could say "GOOD MORNING! and someone on these threads would pick a fight, so i got tired of the rudeness, and "OUTTED" the people. Example:( read Laurie B.'s post.........) From here on out I wont be responding to a couple of posters I'll let the readers determine there fate. They truly are not worth my time, and now my effort. bye bye

NEWSGIRL1160 AND 60'SCHILD PLEASE IGNORE "CHOPPIN47" AND "YOUSAIDIT" THEY ARE TRYING TO CAUSE DISSENSION...FOR ALL WE KNOW THEY COULD BE ONE IN THE SAME......... PLEASE DONT GIVE THEM THE POWER.

Chocolatecherry, I understand that you're upset, but, there are a few things that both Chopin and Yousaidit wrote that I actually agree with. Chopin and I basically said the same thing about O.J. Simpson. His winning had nothing to do with race, but with how much money he had.

As far as Yousaidit, I agree with the thought that you can't fight illogical thinking with logic, You also can't be reasonable with an unreasonable person. Some things just really aren't worth it. Sometimes, you do have to just let things go.

I may not agree with everything that people write on this board, but I try to see things from their side-- even if I don't agree. For example, LaurieB and I have VERY different ideas about how racisim rears its ugly head in this country. But, we just don't agree. It's not that deep. It doesn't mean that I have to attack her, or her me. I just let her know that I respectfully disagreed with her viewpoint, and she let me know that she disagreed with mine. No harm. No foul.

Once again, I believe that grown folks should be able to engage in a civil debate without resorting to name calling and personal attacks. To me, this thread (and any other one that I've posted to) is about the exchange of ideas and about learning new things. If people agree with what I write, great! If they don't, then they don't.

Not to be trite, cliché, or facetious, but: Can't we all just get along?!?!?!?!

Jezz; leave you people alone for a couple of days!!
Can't get into the discussion right now, too much going on: but I will say this: I'm greatful to the
Catholics for having given me (at a very reasonable
price) a first rate education, but like finding your sister's underwear in a porno magazine in your uncles sock drawer, there are a lot of questions that the church just does'nt have answers for: for every good deed they've done, there are a thousand little not-a-explaination-that-makes-any-kind-of sense. responses. Unless I'm wrong there are few religions that have their own country, suppositely given to them by God. I hope all you kids voted today and looked stylish while doing so......I met the cutest little democrat while doing my social duty!!!.

HOW FAR HAVE BLACKS REALLY COME SINCE 1962?.....ALL THE WAY TO THE WHITE HOUSE.......HOORAY! THANKS YOU'ALL FOR YOUR INTERESTING FEEDBACK, AND NOW THAT THE QUESTION HAS BEEN ANSWSERED, I'M OUTTA HERE!!!!! BYE, BYE, AND ITS A GREAT DAY IN AMERICA!!!!!!!

CHOCOLATECHERRY

P.S. NEWSGIRL1160 THERES SOMETHING THAT CHOPPIN47 SAID THAT I AGREE WITH ALSO, YOUR IGNORRANT! BYE FOOL...

Well, let's see.

Hmmm... Oh, yeah, one got elected President yesterday. :-)

Hi fellow Maddicts!
I couldn't be prouder to call myself an American than I am today!
I am also proud to say I contributed to this historical moment with my vote, and cried during President elect Obama's speech!

Now, I pray God gives him the strength he will need to take on this the job of President!

If we need to look how far we have come as a people...Remember November 4, 2008!!!!

And never forget November 22, 1963....

Hi Newsgirl1160!

I'm sorry if I confused things...
Within the Irish population there are Irishmen who are called dark or black Irish because of their hair and eye color. These Irishmen come from a mix of the Spainish and Irish when Spain invaded Ireland.
As I said in my earlier post...I think almost EVERY Country at some point invaded and mixed with the Irish in Ireland. Because of this, I have often wondered if the Irish people are more excepting of mixed culture relationships.
So what you are telling me about the new African Irish children doesn't suprise me.
I hope that helps...

Thank you for The New York Times link. I don't get to read it as often as I'd like.
One of my favorite Sunday rituals is to buy a NY Times and actually read the whole thing with no interuption!! I think I'll be doing more of that, since Mad Men is gone for a few months....boo hoo!

60'schild, thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it.

chocolatecherry, I'm sorry that you are so offended because I agreed with others. I'm not an all or nothing person. I think that finding and acknowledging common ground is mannerable and positive in any conversation whether it occurs in cyberspace or face-to-face. There's no weakness or defeat in being able to agree with some parts of someone's argument --even if you don't see or agree with the majority of their opinions.

As far as me being "ignorant," I find your comment quite interesting and confusing; especially since you previously thanked me for my "informative" posts and that I presented my thoughts in a "cordial manner." How can one be "ignorant" and "informative" at the same time? Am I now "ignorant" because I found some truth in what others said and because their viewpoints happened not to agree with yours? If that is the case, then that is truly sad.

Newsgirl1160: Are you a glutton for punishment? A masochist, perhaps? (No offense intended here, but why oh why are you trying to carry on an intelligent conversation with an imbecile/Troll?) I think you need to go to www.flayme.com and discover that every time you answer a particular poster (referred to as a "Troll") you give them what they want: A reaction. A posting can be positive or negative (and yours are certainly positive), but the Troll cannot tell the difference. All the Troll wants is a reaction - any reaction positive or negative - and they are off and running. If you will notice the Troll in question does not talk about Mad Men, which is what this forum is supposed to be about. They talk all about themselves, usually in screaming capital letters; this should be your first tip off that the Troll is just that: A Troll! Secondly, this particular Troll always names calls (the sign of an immature mind) and often tells others they are ignorant, as in their last posting directed at you, telling you that "Your ignorrant. Bye Fool."

Not to be pedantic, but take a good look at how they spelled the first two words in the aforementioned posting, the ones I just repeated as an example. They have misspelled so many words in so many of their postings on this site, and used such poor grammar (not to mention their constant name calling and use of vulgarity in many postings when someone disagrees with their illogical way of thinking), I would have thought you'd have seen the light and given up the fight long ago. Again, no offense because your postings are insightful, but if you are waiting for the Troll to understand the logic you're trying to get across, you have a long wait ahead of you. Forever, in fact!

You mentioned in one of your postings that you agreed with me, i.e., that one cannot reason with an unreasonable person, or speak logic to an illogical one. Why on earth are you now trying so desperately to do both those things? Your arguments are the ones of a LOGICAL mind, and yet you seem determined to get them into the thought processes of an ILLOGICAL ONE! Please stop. It won't work and this discussion will continue on and on in the same vein, with the Troll screaming, name calling, and reducing itself to the imbecile it truly is; note that it sometimes uses vulgarity and capital letters when it cannot come up with anything intelligent (Trolls are not known for their high IQ's, trust me). In addition, one posting of this particular noxious Troll was taken off a thread concerning the Mad Men character Joan, when it began using so much vulgarity it turned this site blue. It calmed down only long enough to run around the site posting its nominations for board moderator. Furthermore, it often posts threads about race, that it knows will draw attention. This thread actually has NOTHING to do with Mad Men. It talks all about itself on these threads and tells others they don't know anything, and constantly explains its stance on a variety of racial issues.

Anyway, if you have not already done so, please visit www.flayme.com. You will find it enlightening and afterward, you may decide that continually addressing the Troll of this site (one of many, but this one takes the cake), is really not worth your time or effort.

Yousaidit, I understand precisely your point. And, as you stated, I did notice the misspellings and such, but I chose not to point that out.

The reason for my post was not just for that individual (even if it was addressed to that particular person). The reality is others, such as yourself, read posts. My purpose was to live up to my reputation for providing informative, insightful, and even provocative (from an intellectual perspective, of course) posts.

No. I am not a masochist or a glutton for punishment. In fact, had you not addressed me, my previous post would've been my last on this thread. As you stated, there's no fighting illogic with logic; however, I do believe in defending myself, and I wasn't about to let someone get away with calling me "ignorant." Perhaps that was childish and even hypocritcal on my part. But, hey, nobody's perfect! The "fool" comment was laughable and sophomoric. If you noticed, I didn't even bother to respond to that one.

Newsgirl1160: Well, I think my point might be lost (because really, why would you care if some Troll called you "ignorant?), however, it was very noble of you not to be pedantic. If you honestly thought it was all "laughable and sophomoric," well, hey, everyone wants to get in their two cents, I guess and be the "Flamemaster," thus I will deny no one their opportunity. Until Mad Men begins again, flame me not, and I bid you goodbye.

Newgirl1160: Oh, just one more thing. If that was to be your last posting (as you mentioned), why would you come back here at all? Just to see if someone responded? Hmmm. Anyway, all rhetorical. Oh yes, and it's probably not a good idea to talk about your immense "reputation" on these boards (informative, provocative, insightful, and all that) as it carries with it a definite air of immodesty, kind of like when people talk about their advanced college educations, high IQ's, and all that. I mean really, WHAT reputation? Before I saw any of your posts here, I didn't even know you existed; and I only read a couple of your postings as they pertained to me, I haven't really seen the others. But again, no offense intended. As I said, flame me not and enjoy the next season of Mad Men.

Hi 60's Child

The Black Irish story (and some say it's a myth but who knows?) comes not from a Spanish Invasion of Ireland actually. It is said that a Spanish Armada returning from a failed invasion of England was caught in a violent storm at sea on route back to Spain. Many of these Spanish sailors washed up on Irish shores and it's thought that some survivors were taken in by Irish women. Incidentally, I'm half-Irish (dark hair/dark eyes) and half Sicilian (Italian, Greek, North African, French, Spanish).

I have read most of the posts on this thread and am appalled at the lack of knowledge about genetics, anthropology and so-called heritage. All living people in the world have the same basic DNA. And this DNA is derived from the migrating homonids from the continent of Africa millions of years ago. If this fact were assimilated into our culture all prejudices would drop away over night.

We now have a president who is from a so-called "bi-racial" family. So what. It says a lot about how far we have come in this country that Mr. Obama was elected. Obviously still, a lot of people have to change their attitude about "race", which does not scientifically exist. The differences that people judge people on, are superficial. Colors of skin and features are different on every person. It will get harder and harder to group together large masses of people who have similar external characteristics, because of the increase in miscegenation (mixing of races, nationalities, etc.). Someday, if the idiotic "drop" idea were to persist, most or all of the people on earth could be called "black".

EDUCATION is the key to prejudice and misconceptions about people in the human race.

As for Mad Men - the show does a lot depicting the attitudes and prejudices, especially among the domiinent "white" back then. But, even though there was a lot of social change in this country, there are still plenty of racists around and even worse, our schools are not teaching the truth about who we really are.
.

Don't you just love questions that answer themselves? My thanks to the AMC staffer who came up with the question and I hope you enjoy the fruits of your Obama bet!
The only saddness for me is that prop 8 passed here in California; my thought is that people got confused and thought they were voting "yes" to equal rights for marriage, when they should have voted " no" to the bill it self. My feelings about who would be mean, cheap and stupid enough to even propose such a bill were confirmed when the local channel showed a veiw of the Yes on 8 campaign headquarters; The smarmy leader of the group looked delighted and astonished and there wasn't a single person in that room I would even consider dating! It's not that I always judge people
by their covers, it's just that there was something
decidely creepy about those folks. The plus side
though is after the high of victory comes the reality of how much yard work we still have to do.
In the mean time, dress nice, smell nice, be nice and ladies it would be nice if you bought a guy a drink every now and again.
Got to cllimb up on my high horse and get back to it. be good chillins!

How about before 1962?

The progress that Barack Obama is making towards the White House is an indication of the progress made by Africa Americans in US politics and society. That progress is all the more impressive when viewed in the context of African American troops in the American Revolutionary War.

I have been reading a fascinating book by Stephen Clarkson,"Patriot’s Reward" (published last year by Peter E. Randall Publishers). Set in America in the latter half of the 1700s, Patriot's Reward follows the adventures of Will Clarkson, a young African enslaved in New Hampshire, who hates living in bondage and yearns for the same freedoms that his white owners battle for. He fights with distinction in the American Revolution, but at what cost, and for what reward?

Written by a descendent of the slave-owning family that once kept Will Clarkson as property, Patriot's Reward is a profoundly involving novel about an African-American ripped from his original culture who fiercely persevered and adapted to his new culture.

Finally, with the election of Barack Obama, Will’s reward has come about. Let's hope it's here to stay.

Hi bklyngirl! Thank you!
I am always looking for any history related to Ireland!
I have been told the story of Spain by my Irish relatives who also have dark eyes and hair, and some who have dark hair and blue eyes.
Great to talk with you, and welcome if you are new to the Forum!!

Hi skyebluelake!
Thank you for the book suggestion! I will definitely look for it, it sounds like a great story.

Regarding Barack Obama, Ditto!!

Hi 60's Child,

You are so welcome. Got on a kick about 10 yrs. ago with that whole "Celtic Tiger" thing. Wanted to know more about my Irish roots. I read so many great but very sad books on Irish history. Really was an eye-opener for me. Especially the history of the famine. Can't remember the author's name but you might want to check out a book called "Paddy's Lament" - all about the famine. Compelling reading.

From 1962 All The Way To The White House!
"You've Come A Long Way, Baby"

Hi bklyngirl!
I have read "Paddy's Lament"....heartbreaking!

How far have blacks come? There is still racism and minorities still have to struggle, but why don't we ask Barack Obama?

Asking him only further breeds more ignorance i think.