Glamara: I hope you have reconciled your feelings with your mom if she is still alive. I have experienced deep depression back in the early 1970's; it is one of the worse things one can ever go through. It only lasted a couple of years thank God.

.....Oh, not at all. Nothing whatsoever. Don't feel a thing. Nope, not me.

In fact.....call me bored as hell.

(Hee.)

Dry Manhattan, LOL, yeah, right.......

How can it not? It's hitting different cylinders or experiences in my life. Not exactly the same, but impressions/brush strokes of my family and personal life. Marital infidelity; the other woman; the depressed raging mother; the absent father; the coronaries; the fighting parents; the woman trying to "make it" in a man's world by withholding her emotions and being businesslike; the stress and loneliness of being a woman in a man's business world; the parent who moves on after death to a new partner.......kind of universal experiences (we're all in it together).

Actually, come to think of it, this is series is kind of cathartic.

Every scene has something I can relate to. I am all of them and yet none of them. I lived Sally's wide eye trust in her dad and Peggy's disgust at being expected to share her private life with other people. There are good memories of long lost friends and cruel reminders of enemies who I cannot seem to lose. It is all there on Sunday nights, my life that happened and my life that didn't happen, but could have if I had taken different steps. The whole series is just a great big old ink blot, isn't it?!

wasthere: Thank you. My mother is still alive. I have reconciled my feelings toward her. It took me awhile, but in my 30's I let go of my anger toward her.

....... Just guessing, but it seems like the thing that makes a series (or movie or book or song) "good" is its ability to speak to all of those things, even indirectly, and channel all that out of us so we do identify.

Mad Men has the added sentiment and fascination of the childhood and young adult memories for so many, as well as the gorgeous and rich cultural background.

And in Matt's case, he is really throwing the "good guys as bad guys / bad guys as good guys" thing in there to mess with our heads! Like it or not, Matt Weiner and company are re-sculpting our perceptions and causing (some of) us to evolve a little...... and realize that no person's worth is based strictly on his or her last good or bad deed.

I think a few people on here are a little surprised, if they are being honest, at the MYRIAD ways in which this series, and forum, opens one's eyes. For a lot of people, I bet this whole experience is very much reframing all those 50-year-old memories.

I credit the people on here for allowing all that - for the tolerance and positive feedback. The other unique thing is the nurturing (for want of a better word) auspices of the forum editor. Clayton has been on top of the whole "conduit" thing from the very beginning.

What do you want to bet this is one of the few forums on the internet with an age group ranging from 18 to 80. I think that might be the part I like best, and I hope it stays that way. It's new and fresh that I don't know if I am talking with an older or younger person, unless they talk about it, and it's GREAT - at least at first until you get to know someone. No prejudgment, no labels other than how that person relates.

Just about all the other interest groups have made their causes known, with good reason, and are on a good path. However, as far as discrimination goes, it's my belief that ageism is the last bastion to be razed.

I think it's human nature to feel discriminatory toward various people at times, but ageism is very insidious - the silent, unconcious prejudice that should be rejected by people of all ages.

Thanks for a provocative thread, Glamara. (I guess that would be a "yes!")

(BTW - this post should say 8:09 am.....)

Dry Manhattan: Good subject: "Ageism"
When I was young, people that worked for corporations for a very long time were treated with great respect and when they retired were almost put on everyone's shoulders. In today's world, it is the opposite. Companies can't wait to get rid of you, regardless of your experience, wisdom and professionalism. They fear you will "cost" them.

Asians have been known to highly respect their elders. However, I was shocked when I watched an old movie "The Savage Innocents" (on AMC?) that the Eskimos abandoned their elders and put them out on the ice when they were no longer useful.

What younger people probably don't understand (and I didn't until I got there) is that older people are just kids with wrinkles. Sure, if we're lucky we may have picked up some wisdom and maturity, but inside there's still the feeling of "I'm a kid" even as we age and are getting closer to our mortality. At least that's the way I feel inside, though I'm not trying to "act" like a kid in public or dressing like one, and my maturity isn't that of a kid.

@wasthere: isn't that so true? Companies pretty much don't have any use for older workers. My one satisfaction after quitting my advertising job was that my replacement took my sales territory and trashed it from making $350-$400k a month, to $75K a month. Got some satisfaction over that since the company felt any monkey could do our job and we had no bearing or influence on the revenue.

Dry Manhattan, yes to your post, especially the unknown commenter aspect. Unknown isn't the right word for me to use, though, because sometimes we reveal more of ourselves here or on forums than we do to the people who are closest to us. In that way, I am not 'unknown' to any of you. The emotion that goes into the comments may be the best indicator of who each of us are. And we see that without the aid of a photograph or web cam or resume. That brings it down to basics, doesn't it. I remember a TV episode, I think it was Taxi. Judd met a woman on the telephone. I have forgotten the circumstances and can't even remember if his name was Judd. He fell for her, loved her voice, her kindness, and when he met her, she didn't look like he thought she should. It was a sitcom, but a powerful look at the way humans act and react. I remember it as being one of the most touching and sad TV moments I have watched. That is what MM does for me. People are flawed. Some rise above it daily, others once in a while, and some never manage to even figure out there might be something wrong in their lives. Good topic.

.....Ditto jamm54 - cute......Sizzie I was thinking that too.

I would like to post a separate thread about the ageism thing, and also the anonymous expectation and perception thing, because if there is any place those subjects would be relevant, it would probably be here.

However, I don't want to take away from the excellent Hollis and Carla thread. That one is very hot right now, and chock full of so many passionate comments, I'm basically speechless about it.

As I said, the fact that I have no idea what the person looks like, how old, what ethnicity or how much actual education a person has is right up there with the most interesting things about this forum for me. Like an important personal test.

Maybe we can start those threads later or next week....

All of you just continue to amaze me over and over in your wise insightful comments. I just love reading everyone's thoughts.
jamm54, loved loved loved your comment "Older people are just kids with wrinkles" so funny and soooo true! I feel exactly like you do. And I feel like certain aspects of "me" are much more mature than others. Guess that's true of most. ?
Dry Manhattan, I agree so much with your comments about how our forum (and it is "ours"--- I feel suprisingly possessive about it, don't you?) being likely "one of the few forums on the internet with ages ranging from 18 to 80" I agree--and that's what gives it such spice and variety.
Sizzie, I saw that "Taxi" too...I remember thinking that that's the way people should fall in love...with a person's heart first--- and then with their physical "self", though it is usually the other way around. What a topic, thanks, Glamara.

Well, the maturity aspect comes and goes, until I have a temper tantrum over something (not good at expressing my anger in an "adult" constructive fashion)!

Remember Lauren Bacall's character in "The Mirror Has Two Faces" when she's telling Barbra Streisand "I still feel like I'm a kid inside, and I have my whole life ahead of me"? And then, she goes on to say "But, I'm not." I think everyone feels that way to some degree as they are aging.

Did Don say that? "It will all end badly"? When? That's very sad.

The thing about MM that is so amazing to me is not only how much I enjoy each episode, but how I find myself contemplating it for the entire week between episodes. I also have found that I identify with a different character each week, which I suppose is the beauty of the whole thing.

Sometimes I see myself in some aspect of a character, but lately I have had such a strong reaction to Betty that I didn't really understand. While discussing the show with my husband, I found myself defending Betty, even though she is probably the character I identfy with least. It hit me while reading these comments that my mother was a Betty. For almost two seasons now I didn't realize that my mom would have been roughly the same age as Betty, and her situation was eerily similar: unfaithful husband, educated but without a job outside the home, no real friends outside of neighbors, limited contact with her own family, smoking like a chimney and depressed as hell. My mother also parented my siblings and me in much the same way as Betty does- a little detached, almost perfunctory in the completion of her maternal duties. I never really hated her for it, but I also never felt a true bond with her. I realize now that she (and Betty) had very few choices in that era, it was pretty much expected that a woman was to play the hand she was dealt and smile pretty. Her depression made that very difficult to do. I can remember entire days when my sibs and I were pretty much left to our own devices while my mom slept, drank and smoked (in bed, as Betty does) and never bothered to even ask any of us how we were. When my mom finally divorced my father, her depression began to lift, but she was villified by all: the neighbors avoided her, her married friends deserted her and her own Catholic family shunned her. I remember my grandmother telling me in 1969 that her biggest regret was that my mother would be going to hell for divorcing my unfaithful, drunken, mentally abusive father (which is what Don is in many ways). So, as I watch Betty, I don't question why she tolerates Don's behaviors or why she lies around all day and has trouble dealing, instead I am amazed that she finally got up the nerve to assert herself a little. I wish my mom could have done it as early as 1962. I would have been short a brother but it would have saved a lot of heartache all around.

Does anyone project their own experiences onto the characters? That'd be a yes from me. All those years I felt the shame of thinking we were the only family that lived this way. Now I know better, and it just helps me to be a stronger, better woman, wife and mother. Thanks to the creators of this wonderful show- you are helping me to comprehend what my mom went through and to have a new respect for the courage and strength it took for her to "move forward".

I love all the posts and like you SCfan, am amazed and enriched by the wisdom and insights here. I'm finding myself overwhelmed with thoughts and can't quite articulate them. I'm just sitting here nodding "uh huh" "ditto" "oh my god that's so true!" "me too" "never looked at that way"....
Thank you Thank you Thank you.

Glamara - Thank you for opening up a topic that all of us feel and want to address.

Dry Manhattan, Jamm54, Sizzie, SCfan, et al. - I have read your comments on this thread and the others and I wanted to thank you guys for your thought provoking ideas.

This show appeals to me because of the multiple facets of each character. For many in this country, they desire simplicity and want a black and white universe. It takes too much thought and understanding to view a person in their totality. It is so much easier for us to say, "you are going to Hell for this" or "I am righteous because of that".

Case in point, Don Draper. I admire his professional and creative competence. I applaud his concious decision to not hit his children, especially upon learning of his abusive childhood. My heart breaks because of his inability to "feel anything" - imagine going through your life being reminded everyday that you are the "son of a whore". His way with the ladies is both coveted and repulsive to most men. He clearly is not a racist - see the pilot and his discussion with the busboy and this week's episode with his discussion with Hollis and the comment about the new BBDO hire. He is in love with the idea of Betsy but not in love with Betsy.

Lastly, there are two things that bug me the most about Don. Having never been in combat, I would never condemn someone for dissertion. However, Dick Whitman's stealing of Don Draper's identity is one of the most selfish acts any man can inflict on another. The real Don Draper's family has no idea what happened to their son, husband, brother, friend and Dick Whitman's decision to steal Don's identity neither honors this man nor provides his family with closure. No one has the right to do this, regardless of their circumstance.

Of all of Don's sins, I have the hardest time with his abandonment of Adam Whitman. Dick Whitman's decision to assume Don's identity also condemned his step brother to grow up without Dick's support. We, as the audience, know that the farm was an evil place thanks to the Hobo and our brief view into this world. When Adam shows up 20 years later at Don's work, we all understand that all he wants is a relationship with his older brother. It wasn't a shakedown or blackmail - simply Adam'
s joy of discovering that he didn't imagine things on the train and that the hope that his brother was alive was rewarded. And then, to have Don/Dick give hime $5000 to just go away must have been the ultimate betrayal to poor Adam. Unlike fans of Chauncey, the sight of the desheveled, ill-fitting suited Adam was for me the most heart-breaking thing I have every seen on fictional television.

Without my brother, my childhood would have been immeasurably more difficult. So yes, Glamara, I am definitely projecting my own experiences as I view the prism Mr. Weiner has provided us. I am curious to see if any of the characters grow and learn from the experiences of their lives. I want to see if any of these characters redeem themselves or are they condemned to repeating the same mistakes over and over again (see Roger Sterliing). Dick Whitman/Don Draper may be right - "it will all end badly" but it will be one entertaining ride along the way.

....60schild.....not the "O" word!!

Hi fellow Maddicts! I have really enjoyed reading these comments. And, I agree with so many of them.
I find it interesting that we don't know each other, and yet we share some very personal feelings, and memories!
I didn't have a picture perfect childhood, though I think it may have looked that way on the surface. That's how I was raised. put on the "happy face", be a "good girl", suck up your negative feelings, and whatever you do, don't share negative feelings or family issues with "stangers".

Some of this I attribute to my Irish upbringing. Very clannish, and very much as the late Tim Russert said: "Never forget, never forgive". I was raised with this mantra with regard to people I care for, and myself.

I think it was Dry Manhattan who said it best: this Forum is cathartic for many of us. We feel a closeness to the characters in MM, and our generation.

I think it is part of the aging process that, the older we get, the more we sift through our early memories, and remember the sweetest ones most clearly. On the other hand, ask me what I did yesterday...that's another story!

I think the healing part about anyone revealing bits and pieces of their lives is that you discover that almost universally, everyone took their "licks" somewhere in life. Whether it's family relationships/home life, your own marital or single life, it's pretty hard to escape some form of hardship and sorrow.

If you did, well count yourself exceptionally lucky, and maybe blessed.

But for those who had adversity up front and at the beginning, as my counselor used to say, you're kind of ahead of the game because you've learned from it at an early age. Some people are blindsided when it comes later in life, and they've had no experience with adversity or learning how to handle it.

Overall, though, I think it's a comfort and an affirmation for all of us, that no one necessarily has an "easy" or "painfree" life. That IS life, and it's how we grown and learn.

So true, jamm. What is that old saying?
"Life is trouble...only death is not." depressing, but true.
Thanks for all the hard-earned wisdom everyone...that's the only kind that stays with you!

I guess I really identify with Betty because I wasted 6 good years of my life on someone who was very convincing. In the end, all the excuses and lies just fell on deaf ears. It's hard to give up on a relationship after you've invested so much time and hope for a happy future, especially when you have children. Betty really wanted to believe in the dream, but Don isn't on the same page and that's sad. Who knows what the writers have in store for Betty, but I can see her grow with every episode and it seems so familiar.

.....jamm54....Maybe alot of the people on this forum are learning from it even right now, through the experience of writing here. Back to the catharsis thing I guess, which is the natural result of writing and processing and reframing the past.

scfan.... that old saying reminded me of the late, great Gilda Radner, and her book, It's Always Something. I think she wrote it while she was fighting cancer, and I find myself saying that all the time, as to the little and the big things. I figure it's better than "might as well end it all..." Ha.

Polar Bear, thank you for posting. I see that Don was abandoned as an infant, even though his mother had no choice in it, children whose parents die sometimes see thier being left as the fault of the deceased parent. His mother had no choice in it (as far as we know from the info given by the writer's so far, at least). Then he was emotionally abandoned by his father and step mother. I don't know if his not feeling is an innate trait, or one that is just hiding because of circumstances. But, his behavior toward Betty is not much different from his behavior toward Adam. They both wanted his love and he sees that as an inconvenience and something money will fix. Maybe 'inconvenience' isnt' the right word. Both wanted him in their lives and he doesn't exist, so he not only can't answer, he can't understand that there is a question. This is a good thread with some great comments. Thanks to all.

I am one who roots for the underdog. It's the reason why Don can do no wrong in my eyes. On the surface, some rich, very hetero white guy is "Da Man." But then, peeling back the layers that make Don, I saw a world of hurt for him! Never knowing his bio mom, his father being an abusive drunk, his stepmom reminding him how he's a "whore child" and who knows what happened with his "Uncle Mack." It makes sense that he believes in giving other hard-working "underdogs" like Preggy a chance and wanted to stick by Freddy Rumson. Just like it makes sense he'd never lay a hand on his children and is at the ready with the hugs!

But, in one sense, even though Don doesn't want the drag and "entanglement" of other people, he is learning to "feel" by being a partner at Sterling Cooper. He's kind of forced into the big daddy/fearless leader for all these "employees/kids", and interacting with them, and caring for them in their work lives. He's learning. He can't move forward any more because he's got commitments (wife, kids, employees), so it IS forcing him to be "involved", and he'll learn from that and is learning from that.

For me, probably the hardest thing to master intellectually/emotionally (from my counseling) was that my mother's problems were NOT my problems, and that I (and my life) were NOT my mother's life or her problems.

Once I was able to truly understand, believe, and accept that, I was okay. My mother had a tough life and a difficult marriage, and I happened to be the best available victim/witness to it (being the youngest, being the only girl). After that, and getting enough perspective to really "see" what had happened to her and to me, I was able to have some compassion for her, and to forgive her. It wasn't about me at all, ever. Luckily, for both of us, there weren't and hadn't been any issues for well over 15 years before she died. So, we were at peace with each other before her death.

I'd always loved my mother very deeply. We were close because we shared the same sense of humor and interests, and could make each other laugh like crazy. My mother was the only one who could send me into fits of hysterical laughter, and I her. But after that "breakthrough", I loved and could appreciate her even more.

Also, I think for alot of women (I could be generalizing here in my assumption) it's difficult to express anger. They're not supposed to "be" angry or enraged or express it verbally or physically. They're supposed to be nice, calm, and together. I think for that very reason, many women are depressed (though it's probably repressed rage), and express it through depression, alcohol, drugs, food or withdrawing.

Yes, life is trouble, scfan/Gidget, but when it's good, it is absolutely beautiful and extraordinarily wonderful. Who would want to miss those moments?

You said it, jamm...it's all in the "mix"--- and like the song, "The Dance" by Garth Brooks (one of the few of his I like...even if he is "one of my own kind" --an Oklahoman! ha) ----

"I'm glad I didn't know..the way it all would end, the way it all would go
Our lives, are better left to chance
I could have missed the pain
But I'd have had to miss the Dance."

Here's to the "highs" on the roller coaster that is life.

Dry Manhattan, your comments about Gilda R. made me remember her "Rosanne Rosannadanna" characte...funny as it gets! Loved that "pyramid" hair or hers! She was right saying "It's Always Something" ! I miss her and John Candy and John Belushi and....so many talented folks from SNL who have gone on...
But, still glad Dan Aychroyd (sp?) is still here.
I made a comment on another forum here about his "Fred Garvin: Male Prostitute" being so funny.
The way he'd say to Margot Kidder (his "customer")
"Now, young lady, if you'll just help me with this rather elaborate network of trusses, I'll show you a night of passion you'll never forget!---because I am (closeup) Fred Garvin: Male Prostitute" what a classic.

Oh yeah, that character was hysterical!

I liked his clothes. Didn't he wear some kind of checked or plaid sports coat with a fedora, and black rimmed glasses? If Don ever shows up in an outfit like that, we know he's a goner.

Parents were always saying to children, 'you will understand when you are older'. I didn't realize I would have to be this much older to get it. I spent many years seeing my parents from a child's perspective, even when I was an adult. Then, gradually, I began to see them as people, rather than my parents, and I realized many things I thought I knew..some that I had even witnessed, I had not understood. Removing myself from the actions by decades and looking at them from a disinterested adult vantage point gave me a completely different outlook on things I thought I knew. Then I had to accept the fact that I was wrong or misguided and deal with the truth of the matter. And the truth of it is, we are all just human. Understanding doesn't excuse bad behavior but it explains a lot. And having an explanation is better than having nothing.

@Glamara: Temper Tantrums - I learned at the hands of a master, my mother! LOL. One of my childhood memories that still makes me laugh (though I was often scared when my mother was in the midst of those TT's) is the memory of my mother in a total rage, running to the back door and flinging a hot waffle iron full of batter out the kitchen door, then running back in and grabbing the mixing bowl of batter and heaving that out the back door, too. There were quite a few others, but that was probably one of the better ones.

When you've spent a lifetime being the audience for temper tantrums, you don't feel "free" to be angry - you're not allowed to express anger because you've been deemed the role of "witness". The focus has to be on the person raging, and you can't be pulling the spotlight off them - your'e taking away their "thunder" - and that's not accepted or allowed. lol

During the time I was most consistently in therapy, late 20's to mid 30's, I fell in love with a quote from Jean-Paul Sartre:
"Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you."
So simple and the greatest challenge of all...to create a person you want to live with, not have to live with, and do so by not denying what you had or didn't have as child, but growing from it, and honoring it.
Aging is wonderful in being able to appreciate where that where I come from has made me ME. All the sadness, lonliness, darkness, rage, fear, shame and of course, some joy too. My dad was a humble, gentle, comic genius - truly a bodhisattva (sp?) Mom had a sparkling wit and enjoyed cooking and music when she wasn't consumed by her depression and psychosis.

I used to feel so cheated regarding my childhood. I was bitter toward and jealous of those I felt had what I lacked. But now I wouldn't change a thing. My sense of humor and compassion are strong, and I wouldn't have the twisted wit and love of absurdity like I do. I put it all in my songs and performances. Isn't nice when you can just lighten up on yourself? Cut yourelf some slack, will ya?" my husband says to me, as I rake myself over hot coals over something I believe to be true about myself that has no basis in fact. I still have temper tantrums (jamm54 I saw your post and said "check") and bouts of being horribly insecure, jealous and quite frankly, at times I'm a real jackass. So what? I feel that way right at this moment. Tomorrow I could feel differently and worry endlessly about what someone might think of me!

Okay I went on a tangent....

Back to the Sartre quote. It made me think of Don. It fits him, like a nicely tailored suit. He may have gone a little overboard in his self re-invention...but not really. He is who is standing in the room he's in - what was it exactly Cooper said? I loved that, too.

I also started thinking about all of us who have made our way through life, in spite of what we were handed, and what Michealangelo said about his masterpiece, David: "I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free." That is such a beautiful thought.

I feel all "quotey" today.

You all have thoughtful, insightful posts. Loved the description of being a "kid with wrinkles." Too true.

......jamm.......OMG.......

Glamara, jamm and I will be right over.....

Actually, other than Betty's BB gun moment, I'm surprised there hasn't been more. Like ripping the phone out of the wall (or throwing it against the wall - done that) or some other things. Kind of disappointed Betty didn't shred some of Don's clothes........inanimate objects are great for venting anger.

DM: know what I'm talking about, huh?......yep, the good ol' days! LOL

I LIKE the mellowing of rage.....that's pretty good! Me too. I took it out on some boyfriends, myself, lots of different items in my apartment. LOL

I like lemon drop martinis these days. Had some good ones at Hale's Ale Brewery couple of weeks ago.

dm: what would you like to drink? A dry manhattan, perhaps? I'm a bit of a wino, so I'll stick with that. jamm54 - so true. it was all about my mom's moods, no room for our feelings. Stuff 'em down, way down. By the time I was a teenager, I was a veritable atomic bomb of rage.
Like I said, I'm so thankful for a sense of humor and the mellowing of age.

or rather, a mellowing of rage....

I don't know, I don't feel cheated even though it was a wild and chaotic childhood. I had my escapes. I lost myself in books and at the library, in movies, doing art, being outside for hours and hours, and having a quite active fantasy life that had no basis in reality (that's what I had trouble with as an adult in the area of romance).

But I've met plenty of people who were in denial about their childhoods, and are now dealing with it in their 50's-60's, and having a tough time. The suppressed anger and rage at their parents, some who are quite old (poor parents), and others who have passed on.

So, if you've worked it out before they die or you're old, I think that's a pretty lucky stroke. Now you have years to have fun, be free, and live life exactly the way you want because the past is over. We only have now. (Gee that sounds like Don Draper - though we're not in denial about the past)

born in 1960, thanks for sharing your story. I was just reading it again and can so relate to being left to my own devices while mom stayed in bed all day. I had to figure out a lot on my own and figured many things quite wrong. And the part about your mom's Catholic family shunning her for divorcing your dad..not surprised but it's so appalling, even though that was the time we lived in. She knew she'd lose everything and everyone potentially. That took amazing courage. Even as a little kid it didn't make sense to me -why can't mrs. so and so go to church anymore? Oh, she's divorced... so why again? What does that have to do with church? Because that's the way it is. BTW: I have strong reactions to Father Gil on the show. I don't have much tolerance for Catholic priests, and my brother is one.

.....jamm....Like a home movie! Does anyone ever use the term "high-strung" anymore? Some of them did end humorously. Like I said on another thread, I'm constantly amazed at the stories on here, and that we've all had knocks is turning out to be pretty universal. This board really is therapy. Heh.

As hard as we have it now, sometimes I wonder how much harder it was to be a young woman back then, or a single mom, or a divorcee, or all three.

I look at Peggy and Helen Bishop, and get scared for them....... Sometimes I think being our mothers was a lot harder than we give them credit for.

.....Glamara....how about that bomb, huh? Thanks for the laughs on this....

A theme the comes through to me is one I noticed the first episode of the first season. It is that everyone is flawed in some way. We don't get to see that flaw, or its extent, at first meeting, but it is always there. Then, the viewer sees, that these people are just like us, and our family, and our neighbors. We know them, even if we call them by different names.

DM: No, more like "High Anxiety" as a kid! Makes me think of that whacky Mel Brooks movie with Cloris Leachman as the nurse with the mustache.

Virginia Ann, don't apologize to us---NOT EVER. We have an unwritten rule here...total acceptance of everyone...(except trolls, and Clayton takes care of them!) ha
You're just like the rest of us..."we all got s**t to deal with". We're here for you. Welcome.

Well, folks looks like the time thingy is screwed up again. My post is above the one I was replying to! oh well.....

Virginia Ann, scfan's right.....don't apologize for opening up. It's safe here, and we DO let it all hang out for that very reason. No point in hiding it, this series practically compels us to talk about it because of the topics/scenerios that are playing out weekly in each episode (what are we going to do over the winter?!!).....

Thanks for sharing your experiences and insight with us. Helps us all, too.

Oh my...what beautiful & honest postings. I want to thank you all for such profound sharing.

Glamara: I relate to your postings very well. I also had a Mom who slept in every morning. I had an older brother but to this day I STILL can't remember where he was each morning. I know I was in front of the tv watching I Love Lucy and The Real McCoys and a show called Pete and Gladys.
My Mom was depressed and I would go out in the morning and knock on a neighbor's door and ask CAN I COME IN? I had beautiful long hair and my Mom did not know what to do with it. Other ladies would braid it for me.
When I see Sally in MM I cringe because I can almost see her future.
I never really made amends with my Mom. The last time I saw her before she died ...I went to hug her (she was dying with cancer) and she said not to come to close becasue she did not want to catch my cold.
After lots of therapy and a great husband I am a happy and optimistic adult. I may not have made amends with my Mom completely but I have forgiven her.
Sorry for all this personal stuff...had to get it out.

LOVE THIS SHOW!

Virginia Ann- thanks for your story. The personal stuff is the heart and soul of this forum. The beauty is you didn't have to make amends with your mom to be at peace with yourself. It's not required and it sounds like you found just that. I forgave my mom but I'll never feel close to her.
dm: about the bomb. Detonation never felt so good! hahaha. At least it's been awhile since I threw a head of iceburg lettuce at my husband or started pulling clothes out of my closet and throwing them while screaming like a lunatic.
Truly hilarious stuff, once you get over the shame of it. GREAT material for writing songs.

You're so right, jamm! What ARE we going to do during the winter??? I think it's time I broke down and got me a Season 1 DVD. I keep waiting for them to go for substantially less than the $40 they are still going for (even on Ebay) but can't wait forever! I wonder if those cool flip-top "lighter" kind are still anywhere to be had???

And yes, jamm, to answer a post waaaay up there...sorry!...Ol' Fred Garvin did wear the dark rimmed glasses and (hideous) plaid sportcoat and some dreadfully tacky polyester-looking pants (I forget the color---biege??) and kept his hat on (I think?) even when preparing to "service" Margot Kidder (she kept trying not to laugh during the whole sketch--can't blame her)--he'd say: "Now to start things off, let me strike a few seductive poses... (stretches across bed in black socks and garters/blousy boxers)...then he'd go into his ...."elaborate network of trusses"speech. I also liked his Julia Child bit where he "cut the dickens" out of his finger ("blood" shooting out everywhere)! I read a while back that even she liked it so much herself that she would show a clip of it at her dinner parties.

The lying that goes on in the show is the thing that bothers me the most. It reminds me of the lies I have tolerated from a philandering husband, and the lies I have uncovered since my mother died.

I believe I have gotten over the lies of my son's father. I can forgive his outrageous behavior because we were far too young and immature when we married. What I find harder to cope with are the lies my mother told and carried to the grave with her.

I was the inquisitive child, always asking questions and wondering why. I was the leader, the rational thinker, the emotional feeler, and the voracious reader. I was the second of three children..you know, not the one in charge or doted over. The questions I asked my mother were never answered honestly...I was given dismissive answers, I guess, just to keep me quiet.

So Don's deceit affects me the most. I wonder about Sally and Bobby left in my situation when they research their family tree. My mother's birth cannot be traced to her birth mother. She must have had a real hard childhood being passed from family to family. No wonder she didn't impulsively hug anyone. If you were never shown love, you can't display it yourself.

Secondly, the physical violence between Betty and Don sets my hair on end. My father drank too much, and during my childhood I saw him take his frustration out on my mother. Seeing her put up with the abuse made me try to put up with it 6 months into my marriage. With nowhere to go, I went from my mother's to my mother-in-law's house for refuge from the abuse--to no avail. My mother felt I should stick out the marriage no matter what. My in-laws were Jehovah's Witnesses and they recognized the only grounds for divorce as adultery. Since he had not (yet) committed adultery, and all he was doing was beating the *&%# outta me, it was their position that I should return and (I guess) pray.

The physical violence lasted until I did what Betty did and we went at it blow for blow. Instead of curling up in a fetal position we went at like Floyd Patterson and Sugar Ray Robinson. The day he went to work with a black eye was the day he stopped hitting me. The adultery thing?...The day I had proof the marriage was over he took half of everything and left within 30 minutes. Because he exited so quickly, I felt he had the entire thing planned. All the while, like Don does Betty, he kept asking me, "What do you want?" to force me to make a decision. When I finally answered (and Betty will, too) he left, happily assured I had asked for my fate. I should have got away sooner, but I survived and happily recount the experience as one I learned from.

There are so many other things I project, but these two are primary and have affected how I raised my son and grandsons. I want no skeletons in my closet when I leave this earth. I refrain from lying and temper truth with tact and empathy in difficult situations. The despair felt by those left behind without the GPS that shows you where you are in the universe is overwhelming.

Thanx so much for sharing your stories and listening to mine...

Don't know where I've been the past few days, but I just came upon this great thread about a half hour ago. Thanks for starting it, Glamara.

Dry Manhattan:
You said, "As hard as we have it now, sometimes I wonder how much harder it was to be a young woman back then, or a single mom, or a divorcee, or all three." I was "all three" in the 1960s. It wasn't easy, but there it was and I had to deal with it. Betty's way of dealing is a lot smarter than mine was. I hope she prevails and finds what she wants, basically what we all want, knowledge, understanding, and peace of mind.

As to "how much harder it was to be a young woman back then," I don't think it was harder than what women face today. Each generation of women has its own specific issues to face as challenging and sometimes painful as those of previoius generations. Sixties women were just starting to morph from subservient to assertive, but with success has come new problems for today's women. Today, as women are ever closer to breaking the glass ceiling, their lives are complicated in a different way. How to balance motherhood and a career successfully and without guilt is just one of many issues.

I believe we are all resilient; and while we don't invite them, we can survive the hard times when they come along.

(Incidentally, it's been mentioned a couple of times that the posters on this forum run the gamut in age from 18 to 80. I am 79 and thought myself the oldest. Has some upstart 80-year-old come along and knocked me off my high horse?)

scfan: I forgot about his Julia Child skit, but Fred Garvin Male Prostitute was sooo funny. I forgot about the trusses. LOL

During the winter, we're going to end up like Gloria Swanson in "Sunset Boulevard" spinning those MM dvd's over and over and over again, screaming "I'm ready for my close-up Mr. DeMille!". Where's Erich von Stroheim when you need him?!!

greytone, Thanks for your story.Very powerful. And can I say, not making light of it, that I love the fact HE had to explain a black eye? Good for you.
I admire your courage and resiliance.

I know Glamara... It was satisfying.
The one thing I've never done is express to him how hard it was for me to go forward. I have promised myself to do that very thing the next time we're in the same room so I can cross the final hurdle and release the anger I've held for 35 years.

I regret doing a Dick/Don 'blank out' and ignoring/denying him and those horrible circumstances in order to go forward. When I left my marriage, I found out I was pregnant...thought it was constipation, but it was baby. My cycles were messed up because of birth control, so I had my first pre-natal check-up at 5 months. (I was one of the first to find Peggy's pregnancy plausible.) This was back in the days when you were allowed to work until you were 7 months along, so I had a lot to do in 8 weeks (I was allowed to work 2 extra weeks, and by then, I was ready to sit down.)

My ex refused to pay child support, and didn't work so there was nothing to garnish. I finally felt I should show my son that he must fight for himself, so I took my ex to court 15 years later. He was upset (understatement) when I was able to garnish his wages for years. We come face-to-face now because we have a grandson, and it has made me realize you can't leave your past behind...you must face it.

I am practicing in the mirror like Peggy...getting perfect my future conversation with him...the one that clears the air so we can go forward with a 'real', open and true life. I now know that the lessons we refuse to learn in life continue to repeat themselves until we get it.

@greytone: you are a survivor! My kudos and admiration to you for surviving something that hard; don't know how you did it. Your kids were lucky, that's for sure, to have you for a parent. Hope your future conversation goes well - to be free of that will be a blessing.

jamm54...
I share that so noone else waits 58 years carrying old emotional baggage. Free yourselves!

PS: one child...I would have been even more grey-headed with more than one! :-)

One thing that MM has kind of awakened for me was my mother's plight of being a divorced woman in the 60's with no child support and no car,no job and limited skills for the workplace. She had her looks (like Betty) so she used men so we could have a meal, a place to stay,bus fare(Greyhound)
Helen Bishop lived like the Queen compared to how my Mother and I lived in the 60's.We were lke gypsy's....moving from place to place.Never in one place for longer than a year.
Some of the eppy's have been rather bittersweet to watch. A memory will resurface,one that I like to keep hidden away.
I love MM,but sometimes a cetain scene will really hit an old wound.Don coming home to drop off the kids and having Sally cry "when are you coming back" was all too real for this one! My father wasn't affectionate like Don is with his kids. If anything,I hope Don will go home to bring peace of mind to Bobby and Sally.Kids really suffer when the home is falling apart.

Greytone: Wow... my heart goes out to you. I was madly in love with my husband when we got married but then he had problems with drinking: DUIs, and had to go away to a court-ordered treatment facility. He did quit drinking but then he became an angry bitter dry drunk. When my son was 3, he threw a glass of water in my face (accused me of it being vodka (I don't drink liquor) and shoved me onto the front porch in my pajamas. I had to go to the neighbor's and call my dad to come and get me. The next day I talked to a lawyer, took my son out of day care and fled. First I went to my sisters, where he showed up and bashed me into the fire place hearth while holding my son. The police finally were on their way and he took off and I stayed at a hotel for 3 days without telling anyone where I was. Thank God I was employed, had my own money and credit cards, and I always had a minimum of $1000 in the bank. Long story short, he ended up sweet-talking me into coming back home, made promises, and because I wanted to still hope to have the family life we all want, I did. More to follow....

You know.... I was going to tell the rest of the story here, but I can't. If someone were on this website and recognized me and read my story and it got back to him, that would be v.v. bad.

Maybe I'll tell the rest over on Greg's new forum. I'll think it over. Sorry. I've been typing for 1/2 hour and just erased it all. That was very cleansing though....

Thanx for sharing your frightening story Laurie B...
It's funny, in spite of all we went through, isn't it amazing how we were conditioned to still want to believe in the fairy tale?...
I let my ex come back, too (yes, after all that!). It was a short visit right after I gave birth. He was gone within 2 months because he brought vermin with him....{{whispering}} and they weren't lobsters!
I know, Eeewwww...
After that, all that 'holding onto the dream' went out the window. I've been a realist from that day forward.
I'm sure I'll be screaming at Betty as we follow her decisions over the last 5 episodes...
I so want her to avoid my mistakes!

Boy, all of you are really brave women!

Here I whine over some bad romances, but I'd be devastated if I'd married and it turned out bad. To me, that kind of disillusionment would be incredibly hard to bounce back from. I think I just lucked out that I didn't marry any of the dumb dumbs I was in love with, otherwise I'd have been in divorce court a few times. I also think my parents' marriage affected me to some degree - so it was just luck that I didn't marry, because I certainly wanted to in my 20's especially. Marriage is such a gamble, and you never really know what you're getting until you marry, and people change, too, so it really is a roll of the dice, I think. People are brave.

@LaurieB: Wow! I admire your strength, fortitude and upbeat attitude, LaurieB. You're a brave gal, and may the universe shine its blessings on you for the rest of your life.

......What an amazing thread.....I really can't describe what it's like watching all of you open up about all this really hard, painful private stuff, to each other. It gets easier as you go, doesn't it?

It seems only fair that we remember the ladies (and men too) on here who may not be posting about it, but who are, right now, going through all the same things described in this thread.

someone was asking what we will do in the winter, these posts have moved me to tears (and laughter) and I think we should just keep posting. What an incredible bunch of thinkers and survivors. I do long term psychotherapy for women who have left abusive relationships, as well as having my own story of abuse. I never get used to the frequency with which women and children are abused, it enrages me. I also see a lot of hurt and neglected children in my work, children who have become invisible. I used to think that my anger was a bad thing. I've learned to use it well. I've learned that you don't have to forgive your abuser(s) and that your anger can propell you towards a more honest and supportive relaionship with yourself. My anger gets things done, solicites more donations and funding sources for our facility. My anger has taught me to never give up.

Jamm. i difinitly feel lie a kid with wrinkles, just saying that was very freeing. Thankyou.

Accuality the last comment was posted by me, not chloe

My brother and I were the exact age of Don and Betty's kids, and, although we weren't quite in their income bracket, it was very much the same suburban kind of life. I feel like I'm looking back at my own childhood when I watch them.

She's smart, knows something isn't right; he's acting out his parents' angst in the way that little kids do; they can't do much of anything else yet.

The Sixties are about to begin; it's going to be so interesting!

Hi all! I look forward to all your comments as much as I look forward to the show. I feel a huge surge of emotions as I watch each week. I feel as though I am watching my childhood. My mother was Betty with a good Don. They were a great team. I learned about good marriage from my parents. So far, I've been pretty fortunate but nobody gets through life without pain. I feel like a kid in my mind. I'm so glad that life works that way. I really appreciate all the sharing of your life's experiences!

chloe, thanks for the post and talking about anger's positive side. Yes it can be positive. It just takes learning how to use it. Sometimes I do it well and other times, not so well.

Also, Laurie B. I haven't thanked you for sharing your story - incredible. I know what it's like to be mentally abused, neglected and invisible but I've never experienced physical abuse. I have much respect for you.

Children of divorce often become invisible because the parents try to move on into new relationships so quickly, the kids are no longer the primary focus. My sister is a Cousin Sue (see the "Roger Leaving Mona for Joan, not Jane" thread for this explanation....) and started chasing men immediately after her divorce. Her kids were shunted aside so she could feign the freewheeling fun chick persona to her boyfriends. She now has just one boyfriend, but by now both her kids decided to move in with their dad and her relationship is at minimum, strained. Too bad. Once this guys dumps her (which he will when he finds out what a 2-faced schizo she is) she'll look back and realize she missed her kids best years.

I've been divorced for 5 yrs and I still don't have a "regular" guy so I've been focused on my son even though he's almost 18. My ex-hubby has a girlfriend, but after 5 yrs they're still not married, nor has he invited her to move in. So my son's been fortunate to have both our focus, especially during his high school years, when they try to wheedle as much freedom as they can if you're not paying attention.

Glamara - Thanks! Hey, I'm a wino too :)

Deep admiration doesn't even begin to describe how I feel about all of you. What a fine bunch of people I am mixed up with here! lol

Just a little poem from my "stash":

We never really
Grow up it seems;
We keep in our hears
Our fancies and dreams
And in a corner...
tucked away
is the child
we all were
Yesterday

Good luck to all you strong, surviving, admirable women and men on our wonderful MM forums family!

"We keep in our hearts" duh

SCFan: Nice poetry there. Is this an SCFan original?