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Talk is a public forum where you can ask questions and share your commentary with fellow Mad Men fans.
Smoking & The Historical Origins of a Fetish
Beyond those who rabidly detest it, those who do it and decry their supposed "helpless inability to break their addictions," and those who have rationally chosen to avoid it altogether for all number of perfectly sound health concerns, there are a rather significant number of people the world over who find cigarette smoking to be more much more than merely quaint and colorful. There are actually those to whom smoking is so psychologically provocative that it has grown to be a permanent and persistent facet of their sexualities.
And I'm one of them. I'm a lesbian who is turned on by her own smoking, and by the smoking of other women.
We come in all orientations and genders, and include smokers, closet smokers, former smokers, non-smokers, and even some (public) anti-smokers.
For many, especially those born in the 1950s and 1960s, the seeds of this Fetish were first planted during the historical period depicted by Mad Men, and as such, there are a great many of us who began watching the show with a specific interest in reconnecting with our earliest formative memories. And for the most part, Mad Men has done a great deal to (perhaps unintentionally) serve these mostly underground interests.
I say "for the most part," because those with a Smoking Fetish instantly recognize that virtually none of the cast seems to be a regular smoker, a nuance that will likely be lost on anyone who does not share our Unusual Desires. This is perhaps due in part to the widely suggested use of herbal cigarettes, which even most regular smokers find disagreeable, or perhaps it has to due with the trend among young actors to pretend to have difficulty smoking onscreen as a means to the end of not divulging their real smoking status, which they fear might limit their future casting opportunities. (Believe it or not, the current anti-smoking climate seems to have become this prohibitive and oppressive, based on what I and others have observed about both the onscreen smoking performances and public interview denials of those actors who have been photographed smoking in candid settings.)
But the portrayal the ubiquity of smoking during the time in which Mad Men is set has certainly been something of a psychological touchstone for myself and others in the Smoking Fetish Community. As someone born in 1964, the first year that the "Surgeon General's Report on Smoking and Health" was published in the U.S., and whose earliest memories include the first Virginia Slims TV commercials in 1968, I will be very curious to see how these events are incorporated into the show.
In previous comments to this forum and elsewhere, there is the suggestion that there is a certain "innocence" to the smoking behavior of the characters on the show, especially because it takes place before the omnipresence of the public health campaigns against smoking following the first "Surgeon General's Report." But much to Matthew Weiner's credit, the narratives of Mad Men are sprinkled with all manner of little character revelation moments where the common sense understanding that smoking can't possibly be good for you is recognized, from Don Draper's first scene with the waiter in the bar in the pilot, to his physical exam in the Season 2 premiere, to Roger Sterling's heart attack and subsequent closet smoking. The public health campaigns simply made it less easy to deny the obvious.
The culture of smoking and emergence of this Danger and Risk awareness made smoking into the Taboo that it is today, the stuff of which fascinations and Fetishes are made.
Consider these introductory remarks to my discussion forum, "The Sublime Desire of Cigarette Smoking":
"No one is born with a craving to inhale cigarette smoke, and what is more, until shortly before the decision is made to try smoking, virtually everyone is repulsed by cigarette smoke. Every new smoker who aspires to become a "real" smoker has to overcome her innate self-preservation instincts. She has to force her respiratory tract to accept being repeatedly saturated with a toxic, irritating cloud of poisons. She has to keep forcing cigarette smoke deeper and deeper into her lungs until she eventually strangles her cough reflex. She has to coerce her body into functioning as normally as possible with nicotine and carbon monoxide constantly flooding her bloodstream.
"Cigarette smoking is a behavior replete with social symbolism, because we all - smokers and nonsmokers alike - recognize on some fundamental level that in order to become a smoker, you have to be willing to intentionally transform your body into doing something that nature didn't intend for it to do. To smoke publicly is to state to the world that you have completed a particular rite of passage and physical transformation that only certain others have, and to declare that you have made a decision to indulge your psychological needs to the detriment of your physical needs.
"Cigarette advertising has certainly created a rich and fascinating Mythology of Smoking over the years, and social modeling and the desire to belong to a particular group also obviously play substantial roles in the attractiveness of smoking for many.
"But underlying all other motivations is the persistent awareness that to smoke is to do something that is willfully Dangerous and Risky. For some smokers, this awareness may be buried by layers of denial and rationalization and become purely subconscious. But for many smokers, this persistent awareness not only remains important to their attraction to smoking, it is essential to the complex and psychologically dark romance that makes cigarette smoking absolutely unique among all of the sensual pleasures that a human being can experience."
http://members.boardhost.com/sublimedesire/
Gosh....um, I mean, wow. Note to self: must finish that chapter of my memoirs on when I first met chocolate and what it really, really means to me.
To zerelda -
LOL...me too. ;)
Be all that as it may. And congrats to Vesperae for the all-encompassing mini-thesis. Seeing the smoking almost makes me choke. And isn't smoke from herbal cigarettes just as bad as smoke from tobacco cigarettes? What about inhaling the herbal cigarettes? But yes, it was de rigeur during that day.
To pattypoo -
The appeal of smoking is, was, and always will be entirely contextual.
But that's precisely the point... :)
[ *** Click for Image *** ]
Who is that?
Whoever that is in the pic..yes, it does "disturb me"...makes me want to grab that cig and shove it up her nostril...sorry,smokers--- I am ready for my beatings to commence now
It's fine for people to smoke, just not around me, please. JMO
.....pattypoo i thought the same thing. surely tobacco can't be worse than burning all those volatile oils and who knows what else... i mean who SAYS cloves aren't deadly? (that came out wrong...)
check out John Hamm on herbal cigarettes....i guess they are pretty rank, and most everyone chews gum all day.
http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2008/09/jon_hamm_on.html
....i don't know, scfan.....you're pretty friendly with Drink&Smoke these days.....
Well, if a man can't put down his cigarette and pay attention to me, me, me, well, then I just don't think his mind is where I want it to be - or his hands...
Hey, Dry! Yes, it looks like Dino is doing a little cradle robbing with Sandra Dee...but, we need to be careful, because redhead64 (Ann Margret) tends to get jealous...
Dry: You're so wry! Or should I say "rye?" Isn't that what's in a Manhattan? My parents used to drink them.
I can't do hard liquor anymore. Maybe too many 3 martini lunches when I was working in the City. (Maybe one of those episodes will be one of my stories.) But I do enjoy my vino.
Now about smoking. I can do a cigarette now & then, but it has to be outside. I can't stand the smell of smoke, whether it's tobacco or herbs! Although smoking the "herbs" of the 60s, you didn't care about the smell!
Just watched the Jax game--they won in the last few seconds. Very exciting.
....zerelda - we are going to have to add a segment to "The Mad Insomniac Cocktail Hour" with you AND Redhead64, entitled, "Me me me - No, me me me."
scfan - i didn't want to say anything....i've been averting my eyes.
pattypoo - I try. (heh)
Interesting post Vesperae, I would certainly count myself among those who thing there is nothing more attractive/sexy than a woman smoking.
I wonder how much of my feelings are related to the asthetic beauty of a woman like january jones smoking or if it is more an attraction to the "bad girl" who is the smoker today. if i were a contemporary of DD and the others, would I still be as interested in woman who smoke or would it be not as interesting without the image that is attached to it today?
I read that they film MM in downtown LA correct? I have to be in that area of town for work at least once a week and would love to know where and when they film. since those that do smoke outside of the show hide it to some degree, perhaps they even leave the set and step outside for a real one, wouldnt that be a funny.
I would sure hate to read, 25 years from now, that all the cast members were coming down with bizarre illnesses attributed to the smoking of herbal cigarettes. I understand they don't want to smoke real cigarettes, but they are still breathing in all those noxious fumes, aren't they?
What was the name of that old John Wayne movie that was filmed in Utah back in the early 50s down wind of where they were testing nuclear bombs in Nevada? A large percentage of the cast and crew died from various cancers in later years, including John Wayne and Susan Hayward, and many people point to that movie location as the cause.
I tell you, it is hard to keep up with you Maddicts! I step away to make plans for Happy Hour and look where my reputation has gone. ;o) This is quite a question/information/documentary/history of smoking - I don't know what I can add. All I can say is that this show without drinking and smoking is like cake without icing. I guess I'll let my icon speak for himself.
Both my parents died of smoking-traceable diseases (mom-lung cancer, after smoking 50+ years) (dad-bladder cancer/COPD, after smoking 56+ years) so that's why I am anti-smoking.
I breathed in plenty of "second-hand smoke" (don't even try to convince me it's harmless) as a child/teen ---- even when they'd "crack the car windows" or "blow the smoke away from" me (it always just came right back in my face regardless) My dad got addicted when they gave them "free" cigs in the Army in WWII. My mom started smoking right after the war and loved it....
If you lost someone that you cared about to a smoking related disease, I'm very sorry for your loss.
If you personally find smoking to be objectionable, and have decided to never smoke, that's certainly very reasonable and understandable, and good for you.
But neither of these are in any way applicable to what I am discussing in this topic.
If you hate smokers, and feel comfortable expressing those feelings out of a sense of self-righteousness, then you might do well to step down from your soapbox, get over yourself, and realize that your behavior only makes smoking more appealing to anyone tempted to take their first puff.
And if you don't understand why this is, it's very unlikely that you ever will.
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Drink&Smoke and any others who may be smokers...I didn't mean to sound preachy. I think anyone who likes smoking is entitled to do so...just not around me, please. I tried it in college and noticed I just could take it or leave it --- so I left it. I just feel "personal" about it because of my parents both dying from smoking- related diseases.
I think it fits perfectly with MM because it was popular back then even more than now and the show would hardly be accurate without it. Enough of that.
Hey, Dry Manhattan!...I'm glad Dry Martini got the extra half cent for my autograph on Ebay...I figured it couldn't possibly go for more than $.02 so that was at least a profit! lol
With all due respect to the author of the thesis, I take the smoking on the show as being a sign of the times, the culture of indulgence, and nothing more.
As for it being sexy of a "fetish", I don't really give a rat's ass. I've lost both of my grandfathers to lung cancer related to smoking and my father has been smoking for 30+ years, doomed to suffer the same fate I'm sure as his own father. There's nothing sexy about that. Cigarettes contain addictive nicotine. Addictions make people selfish, so they only care about getting their "fix", even if it means exposing their asthmatic children to second-hand smoke (my own personal experience). If cigarettes didn't exist, millions fewer people would get sick and/or die each year. I have never, will never smoke for obvious reasons.
The amount of smoking on the show is shocking to me, but from what people remember, it does seem to go with what really happened at the time. For me, it gives a little insight into why my maternal grandfather, a WWII vet who started smoking while in the Army, smoked his way though this period and died before any of this grandkids were born. Despite never having had the chance to know him, I doubt the cigarettes were worth it.
Scfan, sorry to hear about your parents. I can totally understand your anti-smoking position. I'd feel the same if it happened to me. We love your posts and would never consider you "preachy", only peachy! Cheers. ;o)
Thanks, Drink&Smoke...and light one up for me.! also, pour yourself a drink and relax.
Now as to you, Vesperae......Like I said, if I'd have liked it, I'd have been addicted then and now right along with my parents and all others who dig it...but I just didn't take to it. No judgement just fact.
Oh, and Vesperae, never did I ever express nor do I feel any "hate" for smokers! As for my needing to "step down from" my "soapbox" and "get over" myself... well--- I think maybe your attitude qualifies you more for the soapbox club than me.
What exactly is your situation that you need such a major attitude adjustment? What are you? On the payroll of Big Tobacco??
Notice to Fellow Maddicts:
Watch what you post...this thread is supposed to be a public forum but it is actually a monologue
For instance: "Neither of these are in any way applicable to what I am discussing on this topic."
Key word: "I"--- am discussing (not 'We--- are discussing)
And that is all I have to say about that. Period.
Thank you SCfan. You have been expressing my thoughts exactly. I have ambivalent feelings about smoking because of childhood experiences. My mother was an avid smoker right to the end, but none of her 6 children ever took it up ( a fact, oddly enough, that she was quite proud of always). I can't speak for them, but I can trace the beginnings of my strong dislike for cigarettes to the night she set her mattress on fire when I was quite a young girl. The terror on my older brother's face as he carried me out of that smoke filled house and went back for my baby sister is a memory I will never forget. Sadly, my mother kept right on smoking, although she never again smoked in bed.
I agree with you both, zerelda and SCfan. Maybe some people can analyze smoking more objectively, but for those of us whose lives have been touched by the negative effects of cigarettes, it's hard to think of them in any other way but as a cause of pain. I've always seen smoking cigarettes as an act of self-indulgence - getting your nicotine fix while polluting the air for all the people around you. Besides, what's sexy about yellow stains on your teeth and fingers, ash-tray breath, and a chronic phlegmy cough? Gee, Calgon take me away!
hanna, zerelda, D&S... almost everybody here (my MM buds)...as someone who has also been kicked in the heart by smoking's nearly-always-grim outcome...I feel for you from the bottom of my heart.
No one could say the things certain folks have said on here if they'd ever seen a loved one die from lung cancer "up close and personal"...a fate I would not wish on my worst enemy.
God Bless you guys!
....some of my best friends are smokers. i understand the romance between cigarette and smoker - i've witnessed that first-hand (and still do) and the prison it creates, but the flip side is ugly. i wrote about it here, actually. i lost my parents in a similar way as scfan.... you never get over watching something like that.
the thing about tobacco is, like many other teenagers, i tried it in an effort to be cool for ten minutes, and just could never tolerate it. made me sick, and tastes terrible.
then, in the 90s, chic cigar parties became trendy for a short time, and i attended one with some friends. i didn't even inhale, but the sublingual tobacco evidently got to me, because i was sick as a dog.
maybe it's just me, but it's like licking an ashtray - who'd want to!
(no offense Drink&Smoke - you're still one of my faves and can smoke in my nightclub any time)
Dry Manhattan:
I have licked an dirty ashtray (I won the bet) and the taste is nothing at all like a cigar.
You shouldn't intentionally inhale cigar smoke although I have seen it done. You'll get inhale some anyway just because it was in your mouth.
My first cigarettes were Kools and I was eleven but I don't smoke anymore. I gave it up for the stated reasons of cost and life insurance premiums, not my health. One of those things you know you ought to do but need a really good reason. For me, money's always a good reason. :-)
Ritt, so cigar smokers don't inhale like cigarette smokers do? What is the attraction of cigars vs. cigarettes, anyway? I know some folks love the smell of what they call "a good cigar,"
To SCfan (and to anyone out there who might be offended by my comments) -
My remarks weren't directed at you personally, and I'm certainly not on a soapbox, because I'm not attempting to persuade anyone, nor do I have any agenda here. If you want to smoke, smoke. If you don't want to smoke, don't smoke. If you smoke and want to quit, I'm 100% in favor of you quitting. If smoking turns you off, O.K. If smoking turns you on, O.K.
I'm just offering one kinky chick's perspective, for whatever it might be worth to you.
As for the "I"/"we" distinction, I was simply pointing out that much of the discussion here doesn't really relate to the ideas that I presented in the topic...which absolutely isn't surprising, given that the topic is admittedly obscure. ;)
P.S.: For the record, I have no financial or personal interests of any kind in the commerce of the tobacco industry.
None. Zero. Zip. Nil. Nada.
Vesperae...what about your topic was "obscure"?
Looked pretty straighforward to me. JMO
I think what I think and you think what you think & I doubt either of us will ever convince the other to change our views...so let's agree to disagree on this, ok?
I am the first to admit that I become too emotional at anyone's attempt to justify smoking to be able to hear any other side of the story. Can't help it that's just how it is....
Scfan and Dry Manhatten, you are too kind for words. ;o) I only wish my icon could sing you a great Dino song for all your nice comments. Cheers!
Well, there, Drink, I will just go to YouTube in a bit, type in "Dean Martin my rifle my pony and me" and listen while I think of you! Soooooo soothing and utterly "Dino"-- (he's even lying down while he's singing!) plus there's the bonus of Ricky Nelson ("Colorado") John Wayne, and Walter Brennan to boot! (from "Rio Bravo") ooorr....I might just decide on "Memories are Made of This" another of Dean's winners. What a crooner! : - D
......i visited the site, and it is a genuine fetish gathering, and that's fine. it's one take on smoking, from a perspective we didn't have here yet.
the thing about a great piece of cinema, like a great song, is that it appeals on MANY different levels to different facets.
smoking is a very personal thing.... i understand this viewpoint and parallel a lot of the ideas above, however much i oppose smoking personally.
while i would not want someone i love to smoke (irony - they all do/did), i firmly believe in a person's right to smoke.
the other day i had a revelation - someone very close to me smokes, and i was teasing him that really what cigarettes are is a baby bottle for adults.
at the first hint of stress, it's "a beeline for the cigarettes!" i got a good laugh out of that one.
Ok, well, to actually focus on the SHOW for a moment (winking) : have I gotten too used to seeing constant smoking on MM to even notice it any more, or has there really been less smoking this season than last? It just doesn't seem to be made a point of (
To SCfan -
There is nothing that we disagree on. I recognize and respect that you have strong feelings against smoking, as do many, many others.
But again, that's precisely the point. Smoking is a huge Taboo in our society at present, and the fact that it is a Taboo has all sorts of extreme implications for how we respond to it, including making it the most attractive of Forbidden Fruit for some (why do you think that smoking rates are still as high as they are?), and even transforming it into a Fetish (as in a stimulus for an acquired sexual response) for some. Not for you, not for zerelda, not for hanna, and not for lots, and lots of other people. And that's perfectly reasonable and understandable, and I'm certainly not trying to change anyone's mind.
All that I am saying is that there is this whole underground world out there that has definitely had a strong reaction to MM as a very unique historical snapshot of the end of the Golden Age of Smoking, where the current Taboo first began to gain it's onus, and where the seeds of many of our Unusual Desires for smoking (at least in the Smoking Fetish Community) first took root in our psyches.
But I absolutely love the show for many reasons other than this one personal interest alone. It is brilliantly written, directed, acted, photographed, designed, and presented, and it gives us a fascinating glimpse into the world that once was, and the world that this one is built upon. Not to mention the fact that it is High Emotional Pornography, something that most women (and many men) enjoy indulging in; there is just one delicious, juicy catharsis after another...
The purpose of my posting this topic was simply to say that there is all manner of nuance to the appeal of the show, including my own somewhat obscure and kinky perspective.
To Dry Manhattan -
Thanks for dropping by my strange little corner of the web and having a look around! :)
You might be surprised to learn that I absolutely hated second-hand smoke up until I started smoking myself, at the ripe old age of 21 as a senior in college. I was raised by two parents who smoked very heavily, and I can absolutely relate to all of the negative memories expressed here about growing up in similar experiences. When I was a little girl, I never imagined in a million years that I would ever smoke, but I couldn't escape the fact that women who smoked really, really turned me on, and I couldn't escape my curiosity to find out what it felt like to be a smoker...to deliberately violate the Taboo...to be one of those women.
Here's a slide show of some of my Smoking Fetish image design work, for anyone who might be interested:
[ *** Click for YT Clip *** ]
Scfan, let's not forget "That's Amore!". Kind of funny and smooth at the same time! Dino's "The Man"! Cheers ;o)
If you are willing to buy real estate, you will have to get the loan. Furthermore, my mother commonly uses a short term loan, which seems to be really reliable.