I really need to go back and watch shows. I may actually have to buy Season 1! I thought those two men with Joan and her roommate were just pickups from some traveling saleman convention. I had no idea that was her Mr. Right, the doctor version. I have noticed Joan's voice is different now...little girlish, even. It was that way last season, too, but I think is more pronounced now. Her show timeline included the outing of her birth date that came with the copy machine. That was her cue to find a rich guy and settle down. Joan is smart and street smart enough she would have done well to open her own business and make herself rich. Were we supposed to think she is gay underneath it all and that her girl friend recognized that? Or was that just an awkward moment Joan chose to ignore?

Hi jamm54! I remember that scene where Joan was with her then boyfriend. She was trying to watch Jackie Kennedy's tour of the White House on TV while her boyfriend was becoming amorous. It seemed kind of strange to see Joan more interested in TV than sex!
I still think the boyfriend/finace is her OB/GYN, the same one she sent Peggy to. His schedule is not the 9a to 5p Mon.-Fri. that Joan works.
I want to believe that he is real.
We will soon see I'm sure!

....i was thinking about that too..... where is this guy? and i agree about the lukewarm part. looked like she was catching up on some T.V. watching there...

that was a pretty big rock for joan to be faking..... remember they didn't have Cubic Zirconia in those days so telling the difference would be pretty easy...

not even sure if they used glass then as a substitute. they probably would have called it "paste."

also missing the fabulous interplay between roger and various people.... roger and don.... roger and joan... roger putting pete down... john slattery is just so funny.

there are a lot of storylines that shifted to the back burner, and i'm curious if we'll ever come around to them again....

Oh I think the rock is real -- but her intention to marry the Dr. isn't! See how rabidly she goes after the new girl Jane in the preview of epi 7? That engagement is a ploy alright.....

Sizzie...
I'm right there with you!...I had to break down and buy the DVD for much the same reason...no other way to get my Season 1 questions answered QUICKLY!...(smile)

Joan did give Peggy the number to her GYN, but the doctor Peggy ended up seeing was a much older doctor who looked nothing like the man we saw her 'one-eyeing' the White House tour with on Valentines Day. Her Valentine date seemed so focused on engaging her physically, I wondered why she was allowing herself to be mauled by someone not listening to what she was saying.

I remember Joan and Roger having a playful conversation where she assured him she knew what she was doing (dating the doctor) and affirmed that he was aware of the deadline she had for the proverbial 'next step' (ring+marriage). Roger was teasing her. She didn't get the ring by Valentines Day, but after Paul posted her license on the bulletin board, she couldn't lie about her age any more. She must have really dropped the hammer because changes occurred soon after. (Women so seldom realize how much control they have.)

I don't think this doctor will really marry Joan but has given her a ring so that he can keep her for a while longer. He claims to be sooo busy, and she is constantly giving excuses for his absences. Not encouraging when viewed from the outside.

The two men brought home in the scene with her roommate (Season1) were much older, as well. Joan orchestrated that soire' to send a signal to the roommate that she was 'strickly dickly.'

Would Joan go as far as faking this relationship because her options are more and more limited? I don't think so...but then, I'm certainly no expert in human nature. And Mad Men is no ideal example, either....!

Who knows? Maybe it's her mother's stone and she had it reset and is now "engaged."

I'm laughing at Roger: "What's wrong with him?" he asked when Joan gave Doc's age as 34.

Thanks greytone, I think it will just save me time if I go order it now. Have we ever seen Joan's desk (or office?) I don't recall, but as I say I have missed many things. I remember her filling in as Don's secretary, but don't remember seeing her own space. She should have a photo of Dr. Right there. Maybe his schedule is too busy for a Kodak moment.

I don't think it's a ploy. I think Joan is "settling." She knows Roger is not available ( at least for marriage ) and at 31 years old, she is practically an old maid spinster ( by early 60s standards.)

By the standards of her era, she managed to hook a doctor in the twilight of her youth. Remember, she is "relatively young." Whether or not she goes through with the marriage remains to be seen, but I don't think it's to try and hook Roger. She's putting forth a good act ( about how in love she is ) but I don't think it's to taunt Roger. It's to let him know that she's moved on.

Jamm, it did cross my mind that something's amiss with Joan's engagement; but if she's indeed faking it, that would be more pathetic and deranged than diabolical. Can you think of anything more humiliating than to fake something like that? Someone is bound to find out. She told the other secretaries they were getting married at Christmas and her colors are red and green, "but he doesn't know that yet".

True, the fact that we haven't seen him out with Joan could indicate that he doesn't really exist, but also, a practicing physician does keep long and sometimes irregular hours. That's true for professions other than doctors, too. Also, men feel freer to decline attending parties or functions they're not interested in. Particularly if it's related to the wife/girlfriend's job, which, in those days, was considered an unimportant, temporary condition to be abandoned upon marriage or at least childbirth. Also, remember how Betty has often been left alone at night while Don's at work (or with another woman), or Don refuses to attend a gathering or function with her?

Also, if she's the office manager, she might be constantly "floating" like a floor walker in an oldstyle department store - always overseeing and monitoring all the support staff, checking with them all day long, ready to fill in at any desk when there's no one else to do the job (such as when Don fired his secretary, Joan temporarily stepped in).

But she must have some sort of permanent "perch" of her own and yes, you'd expect to see a photo of her fiance unless that is prohibited by office policy. Do we see any family photos on the other secretarial desks? Was that a privilege reserved for the executives/men?

I hope we are wrong about Joan, though. She deserves to be happily married.

Sizzie...
I'm right there with you again in wondering where the duck does Joan sit? We always see her strolling through the aisles.

Well,...I went back to look at her tour of the office with Peggy (Youtube). She showed Peggy her new desk and motioned her arm and said, "My desk is right across the aisle from you... " (and they showed it!)

The guys were standing in her desk area when they were oogling Don's new secretary, Jane. She was returning to her desk when she shooed them away from the files that stand behind it.

Roger is a cad but the man LOVES women. He's helplessly enamored with them...their curves, skin, smell....what he told Joan was absolutely sincere. It might not be the kind of thing you'd like to hear or say to a woman, but Joan got it. Joan gets him. She doesn't expect him to be anything other than what he is!

I found it totally credible that Joan would want to watch Jackie instead of making out - you can make out any time and she's more in love with Roger - and it was soooooo normal to deal with everything indirectly for women in those days - soap opera scheming is all about joskeying for power in teh communities by landing the best provider - and you cannot imagine the pull Jackie had on all females of the day and what she represented.

I think Joan is trying to make Roger jealous. She's in love with him. In season one, after his recuperation period from his heart attack and he came into the office for an important meeting, Joan went into his office to put some makeup on him to make him look a little more healthy. Roger took her hand and told her that he didn't regret their time together and that he loved "exploring those hills and valleys" and that she was the best piece of ass that he ever had. When he said that, I really felt sorry for her and I wanted to slap him!!

Thanks greytone, I will watch for her desk from now on! When I first started using a PC at home, people told me about Easter Eggs, hidden in websites, etc. I feel that way with this show.

I am not sure Joan knows who she is or what she wants. Oh sure, she wants to be Mrs. So and So on the garden committee at the country club, but, as far as her true likes and dislikes, I think she has covered them for so long, in order to be polite at her job and groom her mistress abilities (oooh that sounded dirtier than I intended) that, I think, the real Joan's desires are as pent up and compacted as, well, the real Joan is under all those foundation garments.

nightscope, I and many others (including jamm!) have said the same thing about Roger's "best piece of ass" comment to poor Joan last season, who was and possibly is still in love with Roger - who will never leave his wife.

The extra 15-20 lbs on Joan, and the somewhat more matronly necklines and dresses, are meant to show she's past her prime at age 31.

Is Joan like Marilyn Monroe, who was losing her looks and sexpot edge bigtime by the time she died at age 36? Consider that if Marilyn had lived on, her alcohol and drug abuse, mental and emotional disturbance, and her promiscuous lifestyle would have ruined what was left of her looks and by age 40 she would have been a middle-aged, pre-menopausal "former sex symbol" remembered mostly my males of 2 decades before - but now regarded as somewhat pathetic. Her only recourse would be to "settle down" with one man. She would have been used up fast, if she'd lived and continued to be passed around by a series of cads who wanted to bed her as a notch on their belts (such as the kennedys, peter lawford, etc.).

I remember tv commercials for dishwashing liquid (Lux?) showing 2 sets of women's hands - you had to guess which set belonged to an 18 yr old or a 30 yr old. Then they showed the faces and it was supposed to be amazing that the hands of an "older" 30 yr old woman looked young.

Part of what MM is showing viewers is the restrictive range of life women were allowed. Joan is 31 and unmarried. In 1962, her world is closing in on her (notice that Joan is looking a tad "older" in the shots with Draper's new "girl") and she realizes that marriage -- to anyone -- is moving beyond her grasp, so she seems willing to "settle" for security (from the doctor) rather than passion. Early on she confused sex with passion in her relationship with Roger, and she thought that Roger would leave Mona eventually because he felt no passion/love for Mona, and that lack of love would allow for a marriage of passion with Joan. Joan was wrong, and the scene where she and Roger deal with her realization is the one from last week when Roger is shown to be a Peter Pan type little boy still playing with his toy paddle. She loves Roger but understands that Roger doesn't love her; he lusts her. She is a piece of ass to Roger, and Joan wants more than just a good (bleep). The (bleep)ing is what Roger loves, what makes him feel alive, and women are just objects that allow him to chase his true love. (Seriously, is there any doubt that Roger would be happy with a robot he could program to behave a certain way?) It is also interesting to note that Joan's comment to Roger about not going anywhere once she's married probably has to do with not having children since pregnant women in the workplace was not acceptable at that time. She is banking on her current position as queen bee of the secretary world to keep her job if she becomes pregnant, but Don's new girl is plotting to win that spot.

Joan is not going to end up with a happily ever after, at least not the version of that fantasy that society has sold her. Living Betty's life will not be fulfilling to Joan any more than it is to Betty, but that's what society has told women is the "ultimate" prize they are to seek. That's what MM is commenting on. It is the Jackie vs. Marilyn fight that says women are limited to those two options. Only Don (and Peggy) realized that the options weren't as limited or at least not an either/or option.

In their own way, each of the main female characters is waking up to the realization that their fantasy of "happily ever after" was based on a false idea of happiness: Betty believed that marriage was a fairy tale complete with a prince who would worship her as a princess and fill their castle with all the things a good castle should have; Joan believed in marraige, too, but without the Betty style correct "princess pedigree" Joan thought that she needed to use sex to win her prince who has turned out to be more of a toad; Peggy seems to be more interested in being a queen in her own right rather than just a princess, but she has found that the princes of the realm are neither charming nor willing to accept a queen. From a 2008 vantage point, we know that women have more options than just Jackie and Marilyn, but in reacting to the restrictions of an earlier society's fantasy, we created our own false fantasty of the super woman who has to be everything.

Hi jamm54,
In next week's episode, we see Joan getting on to the new girl for talking to Roger. She is really upset. I don't believe she really loves this new doc either. She wasn't with him at the party and just doesn't seem close at all. I know she is dying to have Roger tell her he's all hers. She keeps saying things like, "you love her" about his wife,etc. Good point.

Really great feedback everybody! Joan's situation is really a tough call. I really like Joan, and the Roger and Joan affair. I truly felt Joan, probably when she got involved with Roger, fell in love with him.

We've never seen when, who, why or how their affair was ended. And yet, Roger keeps circling back to her at times, and she keeps him at arm's length, but doesn't completely cut him off at the knees, like a woman who is deeply in love with someone else (and engaged) would.

I think of her age, the era she's in, her former behavior/reputation (easy sex/party girl), and where she needs to be at 31. Joan is incredibly smart and intuitive, and yet she read Roger wrong to some degree. His throwaway line ("I was on the verge of divorce until I met you") is like a encouragement line that she misread. Even if Joan had kept her clothes on and played "hard to get" sexually, I don't know that she would've won Roger in the marriage proposal sweepstakes. I think she has erroneously concluded that if she witholds now and has a proposal in the hopper, that Roger will come through at the 11th hour with a declaration of love and marriage. I think that is her game.

What has Roger said before: "It's all about the chase". Will be interesting to see if "the chase" will lead Roger to pay the price, marriage, to get the prize (Joan) or risk losing her forever.

Hi jamm54! It is possible that Joan is hoping that Roger will be upset about her engagement, and tell her he loves her.
In a much earlier post I talked about how heartbroken I was for Joan when Roger tells her she was the best piece of ass he ever had.
It was after his first heart attack, when she was sent in to put makeup on him. He leaned in toward her like he was going to say something like I just want you to know I've always loved you. He comes out with the other statement, and although she didn't say anything, the look on her face said it all.
I'm trying to figure out the latest exchange between Joan and Roger: "You won't be back" and she says: "I'll be back".
She is too good for him!

@Nora: yeah, the previews imtimated that Joan was incensed at the idea of Jane Siegel possibly making a play for Roger. It would certainly destroy Joan's "plan", if she has one, for Roger. That's why I'm intrigued. We never know how Joan REALLY feels. Is she desperate, lonely, jealous, in "unrequited" love? Who knows?

@60'schild: That "I'll be back" is the line that doesn't make sense to me. If a woman was marrying a doctor in 1962, at that time, doctors were wealthy (I wouldn't say so now, necessarily), and a doctor's wife would not be working at some office job after marriage. There would be NO reason for it financially or jobwise. Joan is not an executive or high-powered career woman that would make it "difficult" to walk away from a job like the one she has now.

Roger's "best piece of ass" line was a slap in the face - dash of cold water for Joan. I was as hurt for her as she was in hiding her feelings. The remark meant she was a piece of Grade A meat for Roger, not an emotional involvement.

Just as Don being told by Bobbie that he is talked about, and she wants the "Don Draper" treatment - in essence a "talented" male prostitute who services the ladies exquisitely in sex.

Both remarks objectify the people (Joan, Don). They're just "things" to others, to be used to make others feel good.

@sizzie: Neither one of the travelling salesmen that Joan and her roommate, Carol, picked up in Season 1 is Joan's "doctor/fiance" this season.

One of them was a PhD, but not a medical doctor, and not Joan's "fiance" of Season 2. Both men were just one-night stands in that particular episode.

Maybe there will be a "Graduate" moment at Joan's wedding where Roger will be at the back of the chapel/church (?) and when the preacher asks "Is there anyone here who knows why this man and this woman should not legally be wed?" (or whatever the exact words are) Roger will pipe up "Yeah...because I love her...and she's mine......Joanie??" (Of course this would need to be after Mona has finally gotten enough of him and has divorced him) Just a thought... since I don't think his heart could take banging on the window of the church screaming "J-o-a-n...J-o-a-n...J-o-a-n!" to her "R-o-g-e-r!"--- and then running for the bus--- like Dustin and Katharine did!

Hi scfan!! What a visual! I love "The Graduate"!
Only one problem, I'm not sure old Rog will be strong enough to pick up the cross and swing it at people.

@Nora: oh no, I love John Slattery. That would be such a shame! It's probably all those stupid herbal cigarettes! Even if they are herbal, all the second hand smoke must be tough on all the actors.

@scfan/Gidget: (I love your picture - she was one of my favorites as a kid!). Probably Roger would cardiac with the cross - not good for a romantic fadeout with Joan!

scfan,
You're hilarious. I'm eager to see where this all goes. In one of the specials about each character Joan deals with loneliness. Something you wouldn't think since she's always so well spoken and seems to know where she stands.
jamm54,
I liked Joan and Roger together too. It was a blow to see their distance this Season and not knowing what actually made the break. Although, she did say she is always loyal to her man and maybe Roger didn't believe her. Don't know.

60'schild,
Yes, you can say she is too good for him. But, the gal seems to have it for him. You often wonder why a couple has such a connection and why they seem so inseperable, but I feel that they are. I agree his comments have been very superficial, but I also believe. He really loves her.
BTW, I think I saw in a special with Matt where he says that Roger in real life has heart problems and doesn't know how long he can actually work for real. Did anyone see this?

@60'schild, Oh no, poor Roger trying to swing that big heavy cross to beat back the jilted doc and the angry masses! Maybe he should just bring his cane (or buy one) and use it to jab at them (as he and Joan back out the door) and then slide it across the door handles...nope I guess he'd need two in order to make sure they stayed put--- and didn't slide out with everyone pushing at those doors! How they would be able to run for that bus is the problem...maybe he could have a taxi waiting and they could just duck into it! God, I started a monstrosity here...but it is kinda funny to picture it all... ; }

This is off topic, but, jamm54, you mentioned Sandra Dee...remember in "Grease" the song about her? How did they ever get the idea she was "virginal"? If they'd seen "A Summer Place", she was anything but...she and Troy Donahue at the beach?! Pretty wild for 1960! She ended up pg and they "had" to get married. I never understood that song: "Look at me, I'm Sandra Dee!...lousy with virginity...won't go to bed til I'm legally wed--I Can't!-----I'm Sandra Dee!" oh well, it just made me think of it when you talked about her being one of your favorites...I guess the people who wrote the songs for "Grease" just needed something to rhyme LOL

I'm not believing that Joan is in love with the doctor, but she's pretty sure Roger will never leave Mona so she's got to move along.
When Roger told her (something to this effect), "You weren't just any girl, Joan", she got this fake, beamy smile and told him, "Well, it doesn't matter now, does it? I fell in love."
Roger looked at her seriously. She also reminded him, after he asked why she'd want to join the ranks of the Married, that he always seemed to have plenty of fun...but went on to chide him about how he had always professed to be tired of Mona but not really against the institution of marriage. She must have had some high hopes once.
Did she ever know that Roger was having sex with that twin when he had his heart attack? Joan reminded Roger that she was always faithful to whoever she'd been with....unlike Roger?

The caste system of the 60s comes through very clearly with Roger and Joan. They are on parallel paths that cannot meet in reality, only in that backstreet way, that is supposed to be kept secret. The saddest part of his 'piece of ass' comment is that he thought of it as a compliment when it was actually an insult. Don't get me wrong, there were people then and now who ignored those class restrictions, but Roger doesn't seem to be one of them. I think Roger would be aghast at the thought that any one, including Joan or any of his other toys, thought that they were on the same level as a woman he would marry. Remember the call girl? He was first introduced to her as a wife...making her acceptable socially, then when he found out she was a prostitute, he became one of her customers. Roger career has been built on telling people what they want to hear, and he misses the 50s when he was younger and could get away with even more than he does in 1962.

@Jolie10: I had forgot about the twins. You're right, maybe Joan did find out about Roger's "infidelity" to her and cut it off. But, Joan's lying about being faithful herself. When Joan and Carol picked up the 2 men (the night of Roger's heart attack), wasn't she being "unfaithful" to Roger? Mona and Margaret were gone for the weekend (Labor Day), and Roger wanted to spend the whole weekend with Joan, but Joan refused. So, Joan is no faithful Pollyanna herself.

@Sizzie: you're probably right that from a class standpoint, Roger would not marry his secretary (even though Joan technically isn't his secretary).

@scfan: isn't that a hysterical song from "Grease"? I always confuse "A Summer Place" with another Troy Donahue movie where the girl is pregnant, but the mother pretends it's hers and the baby gets burned. Which one is that. Don't think Sandra Dee is the girl (Connie Stevens?).

Wasn't there another movie made in the late 50s or early 60s, Natalie Wood and Warren Beatty, "Spendor in the Grass"? She's a "good girl" from a nice family and he's the promising athlete son of a local rich man, but for some reason the families don't want them together. They fall in love and have forbidden sex, either she gets pregnant or somehow her mother finds out she's no longer a virgin, and the girl has a nervous breakdown and gets sent to an asylum - she comes out a fews years later and the boy has married, has a kid on the way and now works on a farm (big come-down from being local tycoon's son) - but maybe it was set in the 1930's.

Isn't "Splendor in the Grass" a fantastic movie! I love Natalie Wood from this era (about 1960-66). She's just gorgeous, and the films she was in were fantastic!

jamm, that might be "Parrish" you're thinking of if it had Connie Stevens in it. She was a poor girl working at a rich family's tobacco plantation and the rich-brat son of the plantation's owner (Dean Jagger?)knocked her up. "Parrish" was played by Troy Donahue and Claudette Colbert was his mom. Then again, not sure if that's the movie you mean. It was a real soap opera that's for sure but it seems like it was a different movie you're talking about. Anybody know?

Yeah, and I think the girl he married was foreign or something - very earthy and quire different from "deanie"/natalie wood. Did Deanie have a breakdown because after the sex, Bud didn't stay with her? He dumped her after the sex?

Yeah, bocaratonfan, that "Splendor in the Grass" was another soap-opera-deluxe movie! "Bud" (Warren) wanted to marry "Deanie" right out of high school and be a farmer but his overbearing dad messed up his life by advising him to get down with the school tramp to calm him down (which he did) and then Natalie decided to try to be trampy when she heard about it and ended up going nuts when Warren didn't go for it with her. It was so heartbreaking because he ended up doing what his father told him he shouldn't do (farm) but with a different girl than Natalie. One of those "if only" sad stories. He kept trying to please his asshole dad and ended up ruining the life he could have had with Natalie.

@bocaratonfan: I don't think Deanie ever had sex with Bud in "Splendor in the Grass". She tried to be a "bad girl" so Bud would deflower her, but he wouldn't do it (another Madonna/Whore man).

Then she threw herself at someone else (Gary Lockwood?), but cracked up in the clincher of "getting down to business", and went off to the waterfall to drown herself. I guess being a virgin in the 20's was rough business!

Off to the sanitarium she went with her hymen still intact!

Hi jamm54! I remember that movie, "Slendor In The Grass".
She went off to the sanitarium instead of the nunnery!
When was that movie released? I know it was set in the 1920's, but, the message sure seemed true for the 1950's/early 60's.

@60's child: it was released in 1961.

Holly Golightly didn't crack up in "Breakfast at Tiffany's" (1960) or Natalie Wood in "Love With the Proper Stranger" (1963) or even "Sex and the Single Girl" (1964). There's Kubrick's "Lolita" (1962) from Nabokov's novel, and "The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone" (1961) with Beatty and Vivien Leigh, and only a couple of years before "Ship of Fools" (1965) show the movies getting more "adult" about the issue of sex. So......

Poor Deanie, a sex toy or vibrator would've solved her "out of control" sex drive! She could've blown Bud off (no, not in that way) if there'd been a "Love Pantry" store in town!

It was hard to understand why Deanie flipped out as she did. Rather than an unfulfilled sex drive, she seemed to be having a major moral meltdown just because of the sexual interaction (even if it wasn't intercourse!) with Bud. Kept saying she was dirty or something, didn't she? While contorting in the bathtub? Glad I didn't live back then.

jamm, thanks for mentioning "ship of fools" - a darkly riveting film with fascinating characters. Vivian Leigh was only in her 50s then, but she had aged so much from her bouts of mental illness and drinking, she looked much older. The novel is also excellent (Katherine Anne Porter).

bocaratonfan: I agree about poor Deanie. I think she was living in a sexually repressed time where "Nice girls didn't." She was a nice girl and wanted to be something else but that old societal pressure was always there. As for Leigh, I don't think she looked all that old (she was always elegant, that's for sure) and her bouts of mental illness they now think, may have actually been from the tuberculosis from which she suffered for years; evidently, the effects of TB can and often do mimic mental illness. I thought she still looked quite good for all she'd been through, and never tried (as actresses to today) to look like she was younger than her years. I thought she dressed and wore her hair appropriately for her age in that era. Just an observation.

I guess I interpreted Deanie's "problem" as being that she had a normal sex drive, and wanted to sleep with Bud, but both Bud and her mother kept driving the point home that "good girls" neither had sexual feelings or wanted to have sex. So, she kind of had a breakdown or schism over what she felt/wanted, and what society/norms of the day (Bud/mother) expected of her.

Joan is smart, gorgeous and practical. Bert Cooper told her not to"waste her youth on age" on the night that Roger had the heart attack. I think that Roger and Joan had a fun, mutually intimate relationship. The heart attack stopped the fun. Roger is too old for Joan. She found a younger man with a good profession. She probably loves Roger in a nostalgic way, but not in a marrying way.

@kac: you're probably right, but Joan and Roger had such personality chemistry (as well as sexual) together. They could really tease and kind of playfully torment each other, and just fit like salt and pepper. I didn't see that kind of "engaged" reaction from Joan with the doctor boyfriend (the one time they showed him). Roger is probably too old for her, but it's a shame, because on a person-to-person level, they seemed a great match.

@bocaraton: I wish they'd show "Ship of Fools" some time on TV once in a while. What a fantastic film with the "ship" serving as an allegory for the state of the world at that time - 1933.

I love where Viven Leigh, as the bitter American divorcee, at first responds to Lee Marvin's lovemaking, and then beats the holy crap out of him with her highheel. It's just brutally shocking!

Or my favorite, the love affair between the ship's doctor (Oskar Werner) and the Contessa (Simone Signoret). Makes me want to see it.......

How do we even know the guy on the couch with Joan is really "the doctor?" He's never been identified as such. Maybe he's just some random pickup of Joan's?

I've learned not to assume anything about this show. Just when I think I know what's going to happen, I'm proven wrong!

Personally, I never thought Joan was really "in love" with Roger. In the hotel room, the first time we saw them together, Roger says, "I was thinking of leaving my wife." Joan's attitude was not encouraging. She made it clear that she intended to keep her own apartment, have her freedom, and not be Roger's kept woman. (Remember the canary in the cage?) She reminded him that the "sneaking around is the part you like the best." Well, I think Joan likes that, too. I actually don't think she's that marriage-oriented, but she's starting to feel societal pressure to "settle down" because of her age.

I don't know if her fiance is a figment of her imagination or not, and I'm through with predictions about MM! But something tells me this wedding will never come to pass.

jamm54: You are so right about the chemistry. They are wonderful together.

I think Joan is protective of Roger in addition to whatever other feelings she has for him...I wonder how long their affair lasted? About Deanie, her breakdown always puzzled me, although he stint away from small town Kansas seemed to do her a world of good and save her from the share cropper life with Bud. But, it was just what was reported. She felt guilty, and exposed to her social climbing mother. I'm still a good girl Mama. I like Inge.

@Sizzie: I love him too - "Bus Stop", "Picnic", "Dark at the Top of the Stairs". I never saw or read "Come Back, Little Sheba" or "All Fall Down".

Though, as part of my acting class assignment, I did a scene from "Come Back, Little Sheba". Hysterically, poor guy playing the scene opposite me knew I sucked big time in acting (I truly could be a dimestore wooden Indian). So we rehearsed the choreography of the scene alot (I'm strangled, punched, thrown around). When we finally performed it for class, the guy just really came after me! I really was crying by the end of the scene, and freaked out - no acting there!

@Gail: I actually got the impression that Joan was using "reverse psychology" on Roger most of the time. Pretending to be the disinterested, hardboiled, "I'm here for sex and nothing more, honey".

Rarely, I think, are women that way - though, I could be utterly wrong. I think most women are in it for love, no matter what "face" they're showing to the man.

Sorry, come to think of it, Bobbie Barrett may prove that assumptive argument wrong. Though, I actually think Bobbie was a little in love with Don, myself.

jamm54: You're right. Joan stepped out on Roger. I forgot about that. And Joan using reverse psychology, even in that instance, makes sense.
The heart attack was the deal breaker for Roger...like," I better be good or God's gonna get me."

@Jolie10: for a moment there Roger did look like he was going to reform, until he hired the call-girl for a date a couple of episodes back. I still think that was a "warm up" to make another run at Joan. Roger wanted to see if he could still perform, and not cardiac doing it! I take it this means Roger and Mona don't sleep together......or he could've tried it on her first. LOL

Jamm54: I don't know. But I'm still not convinced that the guy on the couch is her so-called fiance.

And I think that most women get somewhat emotionally involved with their sex partners. I think Bobbie is also getting emotionally involved with Don. She said to Peggy, "aren't you going to ask me if I'm in love with him?"

I don't believe that Roger will ever divorce his wife, however. It would be too expensive and I agree with the above posters who say that a man like Roger wouldn't really want to marry "the secretary." To him, Joan's in the category of "good lay" but not "wife material." Besides, didn't we see in the hospital scene that Roger and Mona do love each other?

Joan's true feelings are harder to assess. Again, I'm giving up on making any more predictions about MM. I also thought a while ago that Joan and Don would hook up when she became his temp. secy. How wrong I was!

Mad Men is starting to spill over into my real life. I found myself referring to a new employee in my department as "the new girl!"

Gail K, 'the new girl' that is funny. Jamm, I think Joan is expert at telling people..mostly men, but maybe everyone in her life...what they want to hear. Her job at SC is to make things run smoothly and she has been doing it so well for so long that I think she does the same thing to herself. That means I am not sure if she even knows what she wants.She is enjoying the spotlight of having a new ring, but marriage might just suffocate her.

Anyone else having trouble with these forums posting multiple times when 'Submit" is only clicked once???? Or a post not showing up on the forum at all but shows up in your profile page as if it did? crazy.....

Well, it's possible that Joan has invented her doctor fiance and is faking her whole romance, engagement and wedding plans, but that would be so incrediby pathetic and unbalanced, I just can't see Joan doing that. That's the behavior of some crazy old maid who's never had any relationships with men, except imaginary ones. And that's not Joan at all! She has her issues, but I can't accept the idea of her being that kind of kook. Say it ain't so! Let us meet the doctor!

@bocaraton: I don't know if it would be "unbalanced" if Joan was making up the engagement.

You have to remember the era. And Paul Kinsey's little bulletin board humiliation (Joan's DL tacked up in the office for all to see) really puts her under the spotlight of "Old Maid" and used old maid/spinster, at that. There still wasn't alot of leeway for being unmarried by 31 without being put into categories like virgin/whore, desirable/undesirable or whatever. I think you start to be looked at like "what's wrong with her" kind of thinking from others.

Maybe Gail Klein is right, and that wasn't the doctor/fiance we saw her with on Valentine's Day.

Who knows with this show?

Ok, there was nothing strange about Joan watching to Jackie Kennedy and the White House tour. People, esp. women, were absolutely infatuated with Jackie. This was the first time she was seen without any of the Kennedys around and we had not seen much of her during the campaign anyway because she was pregnant and had already had a few miscarriages. So, people wanted to see her and see the White House. Travel was not as common then as it is today and not easy for the average person to get to Washington, D.C. That White House tour had a HUGE AUDIENCE.

Jamm54: Thanks for the response. Again, I've learned not to make predictions for this show, but how come we have not been introduced to "the doctor?"

God, I am so grateful that I wasn't an adult in that era. I'm 53 (54 on Sept. 23rd) and never-married. I suppose that's still a little unusual even by today's standards, but back then . . .

I can't even fathom the pressure women (and men, too) must have felt to "settle down." A woman like Midge was truly ahead of her time. She certainly didn't seem to be interested in the whole marriage trip. I wonder if she and Roy got married?

Hi chopin47! I agree. I remember my mother watching that White House tour. I was so glad to see it weaved into the MM storyline.
MM writers, keep the history coming!!

Hi jamm54! I hope if Midge and Roy got married it would have been at a beat coffee house with Bob Dylan officiating! What a wedding reception that would have been!

Midge and Roy getting married? Probably not. That would have been bourgeois, not being free-spirited. They (well, she) were in love and love conquered all. Live together until they were both getting gray, then get married? Yes.

I suspect Midge had been married at some point and probably got divorced for good reason. Roy? Probably never married.

=======

Getting back to Joan: As I said in a different post, in regards to Jane (and Sheila), Joan may be the proverbial dog in the manger. I don't want/can't have him but that doesn't mean you can have him. Of course, in Roger's case it's "protecting" him for his own good health. Unlike with Paul where it's "making plain his pretention."

Is there a doctor? Yes. Is she in love with him? Despite what she told Roger, no. Does he have the status/money she wants? Yes. Could he be the type who was supported by a nurse-wife while he went through medical school and then divorced her? Quite possibly.

@Gail: I'm 54 and never married too. It's kind of unusual, but society is more accepting. Mostly people assume that I'm a closet lesbian for not marrying! I got plenty of flak in my 20's, 30's, 40's as it was. Just never met the guy, and wasn't till my late 40's I figured out I'm kind of a commitphobe and don't like the idea of being trapped. If I'd wanted it that bad, I guess I would've done something like marry any ol' body. Didin't, so......

I'm grateful that I'm in the era I'm in, for my marital status. Otherwise, I would've been shut away as the family "babysitter" for never having married or had children. Thank god! Uff da!

This is for all the "Splendour in the Grass" fans!
First of all this has been and always will be my favorite movie. Natalie continues to be my all time number one actress! One of the reasons I married my husband was when we were dating he searched ALL over for a dvd of that movie,bought it, and I still have it to this day.
For the fans of that movie here you go:

What though the radiance which was once so bright
Be now for ever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour of splendour in the grass or glory in the flower
We will grieve not, rather find strength in what remains behind
in the primal synpathy which having been must ever be
in the soothing thoughts that spring out of human suffering
In the faith that looks beyond death,
In the years that bring the philosophic mind.

I think MAD MEN is producing star crossed lovers,too.

Hi Adella! Was that the poem that Deenie read in class? It sounds like it.

"Splendor in The Grass" was one of my favorite movies, too. The poem was written by William Wordsworth, England's greatest poet in the 1800's.

The story so poignantly depicts the repressed sexuality of the 1920's. Bud and Deanie were so in love but not allowed to have premarital sex. In those days that was unthinkable. It was Bud's frustration that drove him to have a one-night stand with the school slut. And Deanie's nervous breakdown was caused by finding out about that, as well as her own pent-up desire for Bud and not being able to act on it.

The supporting actors were all great, too. Pat Hingle played Bud's demanding father, who forces him to go to Yale, even though Bud is no student. All he ever wanted to do was ranch and marry Deanie. The father thwarted his son's desires for his own selfish reasons. Bud's sister was screwed up and became a promiscuous "flapper," partly as a way to rebel against her father, who she hated. The mother was a wimp who went along with everything the father said.

While he's failing at Yale, Bud meets the Italian girl in the pizzaria. Because Deanie has now been hospitalized, and Bud thinks he'll never see her again, he takes up with the Italian girl. The father loses all his money in the Crash and commits suicide. Bud marries the girl and brings her back to Kansas to live on the ranch.

The final scene where Deanie has her girlfriends take her to see Bud is one of the most touching I've ever seen in movies. Nobody told her Bud was married and the look on Deanie's face was heartbreaking. She handled it so graciously when he introduced her to his wife and baby son. Boy, that Elia Kazan was the greatest director of actors ever! The performances he got out of Warren Beatty and Natalie Wood were fantastic. I cry my head off when I see Deanie holding Bud's baby and thinking "this could have been OUR son." And the Italian wife's embarrassment at meeting her husband's ex-girlfriend is palpable. She's standing there pregnant and in a soiled housedress, and Natalie Wood is . . . well, Natalie Wood! Gorgeous! A four-handkerchief movie if there ever was one!

Definitely one of the best movies of the early 60's.

Hey...It is great to find others who remember (and love) Splendour in the Grass!
Gail, I could not have described it better myself. Just FYI...the actress who played Bud's sister was married to Kazan at the time. About once a year I sit with a glass of wine (or two) and watch it.

In fact, I can just see Nat walking into Sterling Cooper with a pill box hat, a yellow two piece suit and white gloves on!

Adella:
Thanks for the response. Yes, the actress was Barbara something who also appeared in the stage production of Arthur Miller's "After The Fall." Her character was based on Marilyn Monroe. I forgot she had been married to Elia Kazan.

Kazan was reviled by some people for naming names during The McCarthy Era, but I still consider him one of the greatest directors of all time. He directed (among many other things) the original Bway. production of "Streetcar Named Desire."

He also wrote a novel that I remember reading as a kid in the 60's -- "The Arrangement." I believe the leading character was an advertising exec. who cheats on his wife. Sound familiar?

Natalie Wood is one of my all time favorite actresses. Yes, she would surely fit in to MM! I was devestated when she died in 1982.

I don't think Joan is getting married. She faked the engagement b/c she's feeling like a spinster and wants to prove she can still get married...to a DOCTOR! Lofty goals she has!

I don't think Joan is getting married. She faked the engagement b/c she's feeling like a spinster and wants to prove she can still get married...to a DOCTOR! Lofty goals she has!

Hi gail Klein! You'll laugh, my favorite movie with Natalie Wood is "Miracle On 34th Street". She was so good, even as a little girl! I cry everytime I sees the scene where Natalie sees Santa speak Dutch to the little girl!!
What a beautiful woman, and she died too young.

60's Child: She was fabulous. A real icon of the 1960's. They don't make 'em like that any more.

I remember "Spendor."

This was The 20s and the rents weren't so keen on the couple spending all that time together. Quite frankly, the kids should have eloped and said Eff the Rents.:)

PS: Nat Wood had the best body in film, bar none -- look at the final scenes of "Gypsy." Man, what a body.

Do you guys remember Natalie and Robert Redford in "This Property is Condemned" ?

Well, all I can say is, I hope Joan does get married to a doctor who treats her like a queen. With Joan's brains and poise, she could be an executive herself. It really must have been tough on women then.

Some of my aunts were around Joan's age and they worked in offices all their lives. They are really bright but never went higher than high school.

Who said Natalie Wood had the best body in films? In the '60s Tina Louise had the most outstanding body by far. Joan couldn't compare.

If you recall, Tina Louise was Ginger on Gilligan's Island.

My all-time favorite for beautiful Hollywood female was Raquel Welch. I mean, just the face and figure, not talent, particularly.

Raquel Welch, Elizabeth taylor, Sophia Loren, Sharon Tate, Natalie Wood, Tina Louise, Janet Leigh,and on and on...
These were real beauties, no implants, lipo etc.!

The one thing all the above women had/have in common is they were built like real women. Not stick figures with implants on top, not narrow-hipped with small butts like 14 yr old boys, not bird legged, not wide-waisted and broad, square shouldered but with big fake boobs. They are/were rounded, curvy women - and that doesn't mean fat or overweight!

bocaratonfan: Amen, sister-friend!

I'd like to add Maureen O'Hara to the list. One of the most gorgeous redheads ever, enough to rival our Joan, and classy, sassy, and intelligent to boot. I always loved how she was passionate and tough enough to stand up to John Wayne of all people in "The Quiet Man".

Hanna, I totally agree! That film had everything, including humor. The Quiet Man is a true classic. Maureen O'Hara is extremely intelligent and well-spoken, and accomplished in many areas as well as an excellent actress. And a true lady, but no prude either. The chemistry between her and JW was terrific.

Really enjoying the