A controlling jerk.

Yeah, JamieK, I have to agree. He did not impress me one bit. I wonder if he knows about Roger? He did not strike me as one who would be very forgiving of his girlfriend's past romantic affairs, especially with a married man.

Joan is really "settling" in my book. I don't see any chemistry, like what she had with Roger.....she's about as inspired by him as a wet noodle. Joan, Joan, Joan.......couldn't you have found anyone better? More inspirational? She didn't exactly "light up" when he came through the door.

...is Sam Page, and he graduated from Princeton (how fitting).

Apparently he was on All My Children for a short run, among other things.

I've concluded he has the exact look they were wanting for that character....his sunny, Ken-Doll looks are symbolic of his Nilla Wafer-ness to Joan's spicy cinnamon personality. They don't even LOOK right together.

Even when Joan went back to the coffee table for her drink, she couldn't take her eyes off those scripts, and she completely spaced on the doctor's water.

Did it never occur to Joan to be more ambitious? clearly she is very intelligent, and very savvy. why hasn't she wanted more sooner?

Is this really the first time she realized her curvy figure was less an asset and more a prison?

Maybe it's Roger's baby and not the doctor's!

I think it's more a case of accidental opportunity, and finding out it's kind of exciting. And now, she's seen another "woman" (Peggy) enter the ranks, and Joan got her first real clue of what it felt like, and can understand what Peggy "sees" in delving into the "man's business world ranks".

Pretty heady - gave Joan quite a "high" that she wasn't expecting. Joan just had her appetite whetted or to give it another analogy, her first taste of "sex" (business).

....agreed. she was loving it and felt right at home.

If you recall the scenes of Roger and Joan in the hotel room, Joan was all business. She wasn't emotionally involved with him sexually. After each of his heart attacks, definitely emotionally involved but not in the hotel.

A comment that Joan made to the doctor still bothers me. The doctor asked her about why she wasn't out house hunting. Joan replied, "because you told me not to" or something like that. She looked rather put out by it and wondering if the relationship is rocky?

Joan is probably feeling that he has stability and status owing from his future career.He could be possibly so utterly different from the flashy and fake men of advertising. Intelligence is attracted to intelligence and Joan is certainly intelligent. However they are no match for each other on any level even physically. Her character is RED, ROUND, ROBUST even REGAL. His character is WHITEWASHED, WEAK, WITHHOLDING
and WEARISOM .

....he is still in his residency, so basically lives at the hospital. that period is brutal and doesn't leave time for much else.

i'm not from new york, but i believe the area he mentioned she had been looking is in the country...

anyone from the area know?

It's funny that the fiance mentioned "Glen Cove" only because that's a location where they take Cary Grant to try and kill him in "North By Northwest". (Where they liquor him up and put him in the car to die on the winding road)

While Glen Cove is a real place in NY, I wondered if that was a NXNW nod, too, jamm54. There is some impeccable fashion in that film.

As for Joan, her Dr., their love, and the scripts:
I found myself wondering if this is how their relationship has always been or if she was once more attentive. We are just now seeing how they interact, after something new and exciting come into her life. He seemed surprised that she was still working after hours and interested in what it was she was doing for work. That made me think that perhaps there was a time when she was smitten: cute and generous in terms of her mannerisms and affection with him, and not just kittenish in her voice.

We're not given any insight when it comes to their relationship pre-scriptreading, so I'm hesitant to declare it a cool or convenient move that won't survive. I can't tell if he's treating her in a way that she never seemed to mind--and now, given the chance, she could be changing--or if their interactions have always been this stereotypical. I just can't see Joan in a relationship such as that where she's abdicated so much power. I wonder what different work and/or work commitments would mean for their relationship.

Granted, she didn't seem hot'n'bothered by him when the White House special was on--just bothered--but my understanding is that most every (at least white) woman was rapt when that was shown.

(By the way: I'm not sure it matters here or if people track people's commenting, but I signed up with a different screenname--my first name--and just changed it because it's...my name. I probably should have picked up an anonymous avatar/SN long ago. I'm not a very frequent poster, so I doubt people notice, but that's just my "in the interest of full-disclosure" disclaimer.)

......this fiance doesn't seem like fun for joan, he seems like maintenance. being a wife, even a doctor's wife, is work. joan has a lot to offer personally and professionally (not just sitting on the couch eating bon bons) and likes to enjoy life.

as i said, he just really doesn't "get" joan as a person.

i thought her voice in this entire episode was a little obsequious.... seemed like she was turning on "the little girl." apparently, men love it, and women find it a useful coping tool.

ask paris hilton.

i noticed in joan's scenes this episode that she repeatedly said, "Of course!"

"Of course," when the new guy asked if she would be available for questions, after finding out she was passed over for the job.

she clearly wanted to scream and run out of the room - she couldn't even bring herself to LOOK at the new guy - but her years of training in a service-oriented position kept her professional.

"Of course," when forgetting her fiance's requested water, after he asked again.

And other instances I can't recall now.

Joan might throw her weight around a little, but she does keep it professional, and she seems to run a pretty tight, and happy, office.

We'll see, but it would be great if she could have her cake (soul mate) and eat it too (career).

By the way, has anyone pictured Joan as a mother yet? That's probably a whole week of speculation right there!

Huh......

I can't Dry Manhattan, I've tried. Joan doesn't seem the "motherly" type. Witness with Sally Draper at the office, she could've been "gooing" and "gawing" over her and kept her entertained, but it seemed like Joan kept her distance. She didn't run out there to voluntarily "take care of a little girl" like someone more nurturing might have.

...but i thoroughly enjoyed her comment, "I respect that she's working on a Sunday, but she's making more than any of us..."

i'm paraphrasing.

still don't totally know what that means....

....mymymy....i know - and are you having me on??)....

my pet peeve of the day..... there are old and new posters here, but more than i would like have more than one name. each name has a role. it's a "B" movie.

my take on it is it is degrading to other posters, divisive to the list as a whole, and more brain work than i want.

anyone?

I don't get it, Dry Manhattan......I guess there's a lot of people who decide to discard their old screen name in favor of another. Does it matter? I can't ever tell if someone's posting under more than one screen name - I guess I can't "see" the same style of writing. I just always wonder why any poster bothers to tell us they've changed their name for a new one (what's it matter if they stick to posting under one name?). I just don't how anyone can tell it's the same author under several different names (can't ever see the resemblance in the writing style).

I miss some of our old posters that went away and never came back like wryter1, luvmadmen, etc. I'd like to hear from them again.

Nor can I understand why someone would bother to post comments under several noms de plume. I think that'd be kind of schizophrenic and confusing. To each his own I guess.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't really care. If it's some weird thing someone wants to do, well, who's going to stop them, and who cares?

....you say you don't care, but you miss certain people who used to be here (those are good ones BTW).

so who you are reading DOES matter to you, and you're not just here to write (which is totally okay too).....for all you know, those people are still here, but there is no relationship now.

since my take on it is totally different, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. {:)

people are here for different reasons...personally, i prefer engaging people whose minds i know a little about, and evolving together. it's a totally different experience. there are some incredibly knowledgeable and intelligent posters on here, and if any of those people went away, even the ones that bug once in a while, you bet i would notice and miss that voice.

and for new people to come here and see a cohesive, smart, friendly group of people, it's going to be a lot more interesting and attractive to them than a TMZ-type comments list where everyone is talking, and often not very well, relevantly, or politely.

do you see what i'm saying? you can't build anything without a foundation, and building blocks. if the support structure is constantly being compromised, there is no building - no evolving.

take a new person coming here. they ask the most basic, obvious questions, but because they have a knowledgable group of people to quickly (and kindly) bring them up to speed, it benefits the list as a whole.

the blogs are searchable, but the one thing i keep wishing is that the mad men blog, individually, were searchable. that way, a new person could punch in "chauncey" or "pantihose" and not get every AMC link with those terms. (not complaining - this is a really, really great site as a whole.)

the other thing mentioned by someone (i won't say who) was an orientation blurb page for new registrants, so they know where to go for information, how to navigate, etc.

i'm really sticking my neck WAY out here because cynics love to slam idealistic posts. maybe no one will see it - ha.

JMHO.

...you're not offending! no worries....

....apparently our time-stamp problem is back.....it shows correct EST, but my posts were after mymymy's posts.

damn. did i just say that?

I'm not much of an online forum poster and didn't think when I signed up about a screenname. I changed it the same day, but after I had posted for the first time. I don't follow other commenters or know anything about having multiple names or personalities, just considered (albeit a post too late) the use of my real name for posting. I didn't mean for it to be taken personally by anyone, considered a pet peeve, or seen as weird. Sorry.

Okay, Dry Manhattan, I get your point. I hadn't really thought of it that way. That makes sense then - I do care because I do feel that I've developed a "talking relationship" with some of my fellow posters (you, Gail Klein, scfan, boca, redhead64, JimK, Ritt, Drink&Smoke, etc).

And, you're right, I do miss the people I mentioned whose names have disappeared (and you're probably right there, too, they may be posting under a different nom de plume). I guess they preferred their anonymity/privacy over familiarity.

I like your "topic search" suggestion, even though they have the breakdowns on that side bar thingy. Don't know if it could work unless they could steer it toward questions, otherwise anytime someone mentioned "Chauncey" or something in their post, more might come up than just the poster's title question.

....(sniff).....i'm going to cry...... (heh heh)...

at the risk of sounding like a huge cornball, i think people really do kind of hang out here because they feel they are among "friends."

probably half the people on this list have said this is their first forum. writing e-mail is one thing. getting feedback from 150+ people (or however many) is quite another. thank GOD for fake names.

it's like a slap in the face to me personally to see a brand-new poster shot down for no good reason at all.

let's put it this way - my best friend for 20 years doesn't know i come here and write. too embarassing. and i am trusting the people on this list to handle the experimental expressions kindly, largely because i am in no way worthy, and my stuff is crap, but it's fun for me. like i said, you learn a lot about yourself through other peoples' eyes.

greytone teased me that i "wax." well, you have to start somewhere, and take the leap. having a fake name helps a lot!! BTW, i've only changed my name once, and it was only because i wanted one that related more to the show than to me. some perfect symbol.... and that was a long time ago.

only AMC and Clayton know for sure, but guessing people have different names for different reasons. there might be one or two on here who have several and sort of use them to boost traffic to their thread, or to promote their position on something, or otherwise manipulate unsuspecting posters.

to me, it then ceases to become about the show, and everyone, and becomes about one person, possibly even distorting the natural evolution of the list and having a divisive effect on the relationships.

this is a democracy, not a fiefdom.

i remember this movie about an irish village, and how one of the women in there did something really bad, and was kind of like, "screw everyone i don't care" about it..... the other woman said to her, "don't say that! how will you ever be able to live in the village now?"

we all have to live here, so why s**t in the nest, so to speak? everyone deserves respect, even the obnoxious ones. it's not that hard.

and you're right about the technicals.... i'll leave that thought to the experts.

You are among friends Dry Manhatten and jamm54 who just happen to be true Mad Men fans! Your comments are very heartfelt, compassionate and funny. Cheers to both of you and all the bloggers who make me laugh! ;o)

Friends,

Let's get back on point. I love everyone's perspective! But I just can't read some of the loooong comments, just like I can't read looooong forwarded emails. Now---the subject of this blog is "Joan's Fiance." (Forgive me, I was a corporate trainer once... )

Dry Manhattan, was that Irish movie about the women by any chance "Widow's Peak?" I loved that movie, and while I don't remember that particular line, it definitely would fit a couple of the characters.

I liked what you said about why you post and how much fun it is to read everyone's comments. I had never posted comments anywhere until I started watching Mad Men. I discovered the show much later than most of you (completely missed most of the first season - gasp!), but once I discovered it, I became totally caught up in the characters and their story lines. I found this sight purely by accident and was so entertained by the comments I was reading, I found I had to join in. I know I would miss so many of you if you ever dropped out, so please, don't leave.

....okay, partypoo.... I MEAN, PATTYpoo......

you are definitely going to encounter some LONG posts on this site. mine will look like a cake-walk when the season finale airs.

some people post like it's an IM or tweet. some like they are in analysis. some like it's their own personal fansite.

some of us are all over the place in that regard.

seems like a lot of posters are, or were, corporate.

what you will find here is a large, ever-changing, volatile (and unusually mature and experienced and educated) community of really smart people with varying degrees of emotional intelligence and a whole lot to offer.

someone said, and i don't know who - to RESPECT instead of EXPECT.

who was that?

jamm said:
"I do care because I do feel that I've developed a "talking relationship" with some of my fellow posters (you, Gail Klein, scfan, boca, redhead64, JimK, Ritt, Drink&Smoke, etc)."

awww, that is so nice of you to say! thanks. same back at ya! what i appreciate about jamm is, she is always courteous in commenting on other's posts, and at the same time she gives her honest opinion, and has interesting insights into the characters and story lines. that's a good poster!

...preCISEly.

thank you!

jamm is really nice to everyone. She gives out great karma and deserves even better in return.

Property pulled up by the bootstraps by DM! lol

...mwah!

Thanks guys! Send me some karma to sell this damn house so I can get out of here and back into Seattle! Good thing you guys weren't saying this during the full moon last week (while I was in my bathrobe for 4 days!), I would've been weeping! LOL

Yes, this is my first forum ever, and I've really enjoyed it immensely. I forgot how much I like writing (why I was an English major, I guess) and being able to express my thoughts. Age really does help (when I've looked at my papers from college, oy, lowbrow), in the expression. I've looked at other forums about Mad Men out of curiosity (like on tvguide.com or other places), and they just don't compare to the discussions here. Really an intelligent, engaging group of posters (what the hell are we going to do over the winter?).

Thank you for the kind compliments, and let's pray there is a 3rd season - which I think there will be. Either LaurieB or Visan posted a site link to the Nielsen numbers, and they're hovering about 1.1 million I think, up over last year.

Ok, JOAN'S FINANCE: she's not marrying that guy, no way, no how. I just don't believe it will happen. If she gets a shot at the job, bye bye doctor. And Roger may swing it to keep her near him, I'd bet.

Just when we thought Joan's fiance didn't exist, here he is and he's as boring as H. I just want Joan to kick Harry's ass and take over his job or invent her own. She's too good for the dull doctor or SC, for that matter. If Don would just straighten out his life and get his own agency, Joan could go with him and have her own corner office! Don't sell out, Joan!

What about the side issue of Warren (?) complimenting Joan on her dress.

Can't see her going through with the marriage. He is just way too boring and controlling for her. Remember when she got irritated at Roger when he tried to put her in a gilded cage.

Looks like she is realizing that she had gotten pretty far on her looks, even though she is very good at her job, an ugly women wouldn't have gone so far. Now she sees that she has something to offer the company that will use her mind as well, and that intrigues her. Looks don't last forever. Why is Dr. wanting her to sit home eating bon bons? She will turn into a mountain!

I wonder how much Joan makes? The new guy they hired makes $150 a month. Maybe she makes in the range of $75? I think Roger was subsidizing her some last season too. She seems to have a really nice apartment, and clothes. I'm really curious about this, and I don't remember them ever mentioning it. I think Peggy was making something like $25 a month when she started, but she was a new secretary.

Pink63: I think you meant those as weekly salaries, not monthly. No problem.

I like my Freudian slip of calling Joan's fiance, "finance". Oookkaay.........

@Pink63: yeah, the doctor wants her to sit around eating bon bons, and you know the inevitable will happen - he'll start harping on her weight! Typical.

at least warren is respectful of joan, since he is in awe of her beauty, attracted to her, yet afraid of her since knows she is way above his league.

I think Joan will stay with the the doc. He's treating her as expected and she's acting predictably of that day and time.

Joan never allowed herself to fall in love with Sterling -- who referred to her as the best piece of ass he'd ever had... What woman would call that love. To Joan -- sext was her leverage for power, and now that Peggy has moved ahead without sexing the boss, Joan feels she didn't aim high enough. And now it's too late because Peggy is now the first Jr. Exec. There won't be another for a long time.

Joan must marry the doctor because she has no options left. No woman of that day got married in her 30's. She had better marry him fast because she could be a spinster real quick. She also has to rid herself of the stigma that she may be gay since her roomate came out to her. Her insecurities are running rampant all over her mind. She's telling herself -- at least the doc wants me and weighing options that are scuttying away fast.

Joan is the madam of the company -- she keeps the girls in lines -- tell them how to prostitute themselves and keeps the executives from crossing the lines too much. Keeps the wives clueless and keeps the company in good standing with clients. Sterling needs her just where she is. And she and Sterling have an understanding. He knows she will marry the doctor and he has left her alone. They have an understanding -- her indentured servitude and all their fun and games are over.

On another note, there was a preview a few episodes ago where Betty accuses Don's secretary of lying to her. Has this happened yet? I thought I'd seen all the episodes but may have missed one.

@sirdarby: as bleak as your prediction/assessment sound (indentured servitude), it's realistic and probably absolutely true. The hopeless romantic side of me says that Joan loved Roger, and he had feelings for her, too. But, the actions speak louder than even his crudest compliment (piece of ass). So, I know you're right, but.......(sigh)

jamm54:

It's so intersting what the guys of this era are calling love. Very simple formula:

1. I love my wife means:
I work hard and pay all the bills.
I buy her nice things.
I spend time with my children.
I pretend to listen to her so she'll shut up.
I give her babies and keep her domesticated so my buddies see me as having it "all"
If she comes from money or is beautiful then she is a collectors item.
I'll never embarrass my wife with my whore. So I must keep my whore from calling my house.

2. You never marry your whore--remember the old movie-- Backstreet? Remember the old Liz Taylor movie Butterfield 8. All Joan archetypes. The wives knew about the cheating husbands and always fought to keep them.

Didn't someone take a picture of Sterling at the hotel following his and Joan's last tryst. Quite frankly cheating didn't matter to judges back then did it?

Only if the wife wanted out of the marriage and had viable proof to either take the husband to the cleaners and divorce him or rein him in. But a wife who did that was usually a pretty tough cookie, too, and probably knew exactly what she was dealing with in regard to her husband's character and movement. I don't think anyone took Roger's picture exiting the hotel after his tryst with Joan.

From the movies, see the divorcee Mrs. Treadwell (Vivien Leigh) in "Ship of Fools" (1966) or Mrs. Alfred Eaton (Joanne Woodward) in "From the Terrace" (1960); two very tough wives who had different agendas. As examples of spurned spouses who wanted to inflict damage on their husbands, both characters are good examples, and both sought very different outcomes regarding their marriages. Betty, for example, could end up in either category.

Not all women, even in the confines of marriage, were necessarily subservient victims. If the rules of the marriage were not what they signed on for (security, fidelity), some simply rebelled or sought an escape. But, usually I think most would go through a period of anger and disillusionment before figuring out a resolution or exit strategy to their marital woes.

sirdarby, i don't remember the preview with betty accusing the secretary of lying; nor did anyone snap a photo of roger and joan at the hotel, as jamm said.

i agree with you, that joan feels her options are now narrowing. i believe her fiance thinks she's younger than she is. if she marries him, she had better do it quickly, if marriage is what she wants.

(the following is pure speculation)
but this is not joan's first fiance and possibly not her first marriage. she was either engaged or married before. if joan is 31 in 1962, she was born in 1931. she's old enough to have had a fiance or even a husband who went to korea (1950-53). in 1950 she's 19, and plenty of women were married and even mothers by then. perhaps her first love died in the war or in some other tragedy, and thereafter, she decided to leave her hometown and go to the big city to seek her fortune - and to reinvent herself. she's been there about 10 years. she arrived sexually experienced and emotionally scarred, and the great variety of eager men, including married ones, allowed her to distract herself in a series of meaningless affairs. joan had gotten into the habit of picking up men in bars and restaurants from time to time. she saw how tawdry and pointless that sort of life is...and took up with roger for a year, thinking she could manouver him into divorcing his wife and marrying her. but she overestimated her own powers and underestimated roger's shallowness. when she realized he "loved" his wife and thought of her only as the "best piece of ass", she gave up that route and started looking elsewhere. hence, the doctor.

i don't know if joan is a college graduate. if not, she has nevertheless absorbed a great deal about literature, art, and culture. she's much more than a pretty face.

nothing has happened in nyc as she expected. so despite her great beauty, her intelligence, poise and social and business skills, the world is closing in, a world which was, in those days, very dismissive and unkind to "older" unmarried women. joan is used to being the most visible and noticed woman in the office and in the room, wherever she goes. in a few years, she will become invisible. the only way to cure that, in those days, is to be married. and a doctor was considered one of the best catches.

I suspect that since Joan's fiance is still a resident, she will end up supporting him financially while he's still in school and when he gets out and gets into the medical field and starts making big bucks he will dump her. Just a thought I got while watching them interact in that one scene. He doesn't seem to act like he's crazy about. It seems to be all about him.

Joan didn't seem motherly to Sally because she isn't all that cute! no really.. i mean she's a little girl but she's like a grown woman too. very sassy, asks too many questions. Joan probably just didn't want to be bothered. I mean I know I wouldn't, not at the office.

@boca: you write such great backstorys on the characters! You should be writing! I think Joan is making the statement about losing someone to Roger. It'll be interesting to find out what or who she is referring to, and who she's saying it to.

All I can say is that I'm relieved about the Emmys because the Best Drama win ups the chances for a Season 3 of this show in 2009!

exactly, theblackjoan. why should joan or any female employee be expected to babysit the boss's kid? it's such an imposition and very inappropriate. the only exception would be a kid who sat quietly at a table in the break room doing her homework or playing quietly with a doll or something - roaming the aisles and offices asking impertinent questions of adults - not good.

we all hate it when our boss brings in his kids.

thanks, jamm! it's fun to make up backstories...they just come to me....did you see the one i wrote in the current topic, "bert and roger"? it's easy to find on the "most popular" list. trying to imagine how bert started calling roger "peanut", i pictured the scenes from their earlier lives, used the little we do know about them, and took it from there!

hey jamm, duh - you started the "bert and roger" topic! i just realized that! you're the one who asked about the peanut comment.

btw, my dad called me peanut until the day he died. i loved it.

Boca -- loved your analysis. You should write. For others -- I too hate kids at the office. I close my door when I see them coming or disappear.

sirdarby, many thanks. glad you enjoy it. i know i do. an outlet for creativity. how many series have characters that inspire ideas? (answer: not many!)

Not many, that's for sure. This series (and the talk forum) really satiates my appetite for analysis and writing (it's English class all over again!). Brother, I'm losing it!

Being a medical resident means you're getting paid. You've finished undergraduate and medical school, finished interning and this is your first real job, working in a specific department in a hospital and handling regular patients. Joan would not be the one putting him through school. He's finished that.

==================

Figure Joan's a college grad who might have gotten married and was subsequently divorced because she wanted to work, not be dependent. He wanted a stay-at-home wife and mother. "You've got the perfect body for it!" She might be having affairs just to prove she doesn't have to have kids to have fun in bed. She probably also liked being independent at that age. But she's more mature and less eager to be independent.

She was hurt, but only a little by Roger's comment. He does have affection for her. When he gave the "greatest piece of ass" line, she knows it really is from the bottom of his damaged, damaged heart. He also knows she'll never believe a protestation of love or deep affection from him so he gives her the best compliment he can think of.

In the first scene in the hotel with her he says something on the order of, "I was about to leave my wife when I met you." In other words, you made it possible for me to remain married and have exciting sex. Not exactly what every woman wants to hear.

I doubt the doctor knows about Roger or the rest of her reputation the way any secretary at SC would. Probably made a connection at an art gallery or some other cultural event. Definitely not at a college frat party.

ritt, exactly: what "other woman" wants to hear that she helped save a marriage, especially right after having sex with the guy? no too many, i'll wager. roger is sometimes very stupid in his comments.

i wonder how much bert cooper knew about the roger-joan affair, when he said, "don;t waste your youth on age" or words to that effect.

for bert, the dalliance was not a moral problem, it was simply not strategically beneficial for joan. bert, with his quirks and interest in eastern art, logical positivism, and zen buddhism, is nevertheless quite the pragmatist.

....i think bert cooper knew all about roger and joan. i don't think he misses much, in spite of the fact that he's half-crazy. i got that she was clearly struggling with strong emotions, and cooper was giving her some advice from an older man, kind of thing.

could be that was the comment that woke her up to the fact that she would never be Mrs. Roger Sterling. not sure she ever truly wanted or expected that in the first place. she's a little smarter than that, i think.

and i don't think joan is anti-marriage/ home/ family... when she went in to Sterling's office to tell him she was engaged, she testily said, "for the record i thought it was mona you were unhappy with - NOT the institution."

i have to keep reminding myself that women were much more likely to panic after 30 (so silly) back then........i just think Joan liked having fun, never met a guy she could stand for more than two minutes, and maybe let it go a little too long before making an effort to settle.

who was the one whose mother said, "marriage is great if he lives next door." the good thing about Dr. Blondie is that he will be busy a lot, so Joan won't get that smothered feeling i am guessing she gets.

....the other thought i had was that, like some of the people on this forum, maybe joan had elderly parents she had to care for, who maybe passed away.

that can eat up a girl's youth in a big hurry.

she made that remark in season 1 about food next to the bed reminding her of hospitals....

do we know if joan has any family at all? anywhere?

@boca: Bert Cooper didn't know about Joan and Roger at the time he made the comment "don't waste your youth on age" the night of Roger's heart attack.

Re-watch the episode where Roger comes back to work, and Joan is called in to apply a little make-up to Roger before the Lucky Strike meeting. Don and Bert are standing at the door just as Joan enters and Roger says "hi, honey" to her. Both Don and Bert do a double-take (zoom in on their faces when Joan's looking at Roger as he says that - both have a surprised look on their faces). Neither one knew about Joan and Roger.

jamm, i'll have to re watch that. but could it be they are just astounded he would call her that in front of them? plus, we hear the men call the women sweetie, doll, honey, etc...?

dry manhattan, it was my mother who said, having a husband is great if he lives next door.

btw, can't wait for next sunday and "six month leave".

I'm not so sure, jamm. I think Bert's pretty sharp and he did know, it's just that he and Don were surprised that Roger was so open with his feelings at that moment.

You think so, hanna? Maybe I misread the reason for their "surprised looks". It's possible - hadn't thought about it that way. I still don't think either one knew, and I think Bert only said that to Joan because of who he saw her arrive at the office with, not because he knew of her liaison was with Roger. I could be totally off.

That's what I love about the forum - it's like Akira Kurosawa's "Rashomon" - everyone saw the same episode, but everyone's viewpoint or "take" on it is completely different. Each viewer kind of "sees" a different story!

@boca: I like your mother's saying about husbands! LOL. A close friend of mine says the only way I could be married would be to maintain separate abodes - she says I'm too independent and would crumble from the lack of freedom within a marriage. She may be right.

I've never had to tell anyone where I'm going, who I'll be with, or when I'll be home......when I'm with my brother somewhere (track, golf course), the amount of phone tag he has to do with his wife over the course of 4-5 hours just about drives me insane. I feel like we've just escaped from Sing Sing and there's an APB out on our whereabouts.

Maybe at the end of Season 2, Matt Weiner will be open to a Q&A about confusing scenerios in the episodes and will clarify them - OR MAYBE NOT.

Probably not, because I think the confusion adds to the allure of the storylines and mysteries in MadMen.

jamm, it's not so much telling someone where i'm going, who i'm with, when i'll be back - it's the husband who thinks he has the automatic right to veto anything or that he has to give permission - that's what i can't take.

most men want to pursue their own agendas and we women are expected just to tag along.

also, being expected to defer to someone else's judgment or opinion simply because "he's the man" and he "gets the final say-so" - i can defer to superior judgment (the best idea, the best plan, the best insight) regardless of who gives it - but if the man is less capable yet insists on his own way, why should he get the final decision?

Well, I would never be "asking permission", I know that right now! I'd be telling: I'm going golfing; I'm going to the track; I'm going out for a while". Somehow, I don't think it would go over big. But, I'd definitely have to be with someone who was very secure and gave me a long, long, long, leash.

As to deferring constantly to someone else's judgment, well only if it was better than mine. I've been through too much to yield my power over myself to someone else due to their gender. I do believe in being considerate (like telling someone your whereabouts, etc), but not a blanket hand-over of my own being or choices. No thanks.

Kind of what you're describing is my worst nightmare: a controller. Too insecure for me, I know that. Have already dated those types (who seem to be attracted to me for god knows what reason). I'm a controller's worst nightmare - I won't "obey". In fact, I get more elusive and slippery which just gets their hackles up.

....hi boca, i guess what i was trying to say (using way more words than necessary as usual) is that joan getting so upset and teary tipped cooper off, causing him to say "don't waste...."

i thought it was nice. he's right. remember joan talking about her engagement ring, and saying, "i've been offered a few, and this is the best one..." or something similar.

that kind of seemed like a good clue in mapping out joan's background.....

As I recall, Katherine Hepburn's answer to a question about a perfect love life:

"Live close, visit often."

@Ritt: thank you for the laugh of the day!! It would certainly work for me! I think I'll need that on my tombstone or license plate! Ah, that was a VERY good laugh!

ritt, we can rely on you for the most pertinent quotes from famous people!

dry m: oh yes, i also though bert's advise was good and also kind of him to tell joan. she needed guidance.

jamm: I know what you mean about the constant phone calls between some couples when one of them is out running around without a leash. boring! cell phones make it worse. some wives like to tie a string around their husband's ***** and yank it every half hour or so.

That's my sister-in-law all the way, and they've been married for 33 years! You'd think 1) she wouldn't be so insecure and controlling 2) she'd could handle being apart. I mean, come on, my brother isn't that interesting. If he's at home he's either on the computer or watching sports!

I know, he was smart and got rid of his, so she calls mine (I need it for the house sale). Once that's over, I'm dumping the cell phone - I don't want to be tracked down at all.

Cell phones are great for road trips or emergencies where you need to be in touch or a type of business that requires being on-call (medical, realtor, stock). But other than that, what a pain in the ass they are. Talk about a shackle or monitoring device! I hate them!

i must admit i keep mine on and at hand all the times, but i make use of the "ignore" button at will. let them leave a mesage if it's so important. there's no obligation to answer any phone, be it a cell, at home or elsewhere, nor any obligation to answer a door, or answer mail, be it email or snail mail.