I have to put this on now while I'm watching because I really admire the continuity of this show, but Roger just asked Harry if "he was on crack"! I am most certain that this drug was not around back then, or at least it was not referred to as crack. That was really out of place.
Crack? I missed that. I'm still trying to figure out who this "Mitch" is who they keep refering to. I don't recall a Mitch. Harry said to Roger,"between you and me I don't think Mitch is happy with my promotion."
Peggy just walked into the SC office with Fr. Gill, and Ken asked Harry if we got the "Miracle Whip" contract? Another classic moment!
Love Duck, Crab, Crab, Duck in the intros.at the house!!
I did not even hear that! It was perfect that they had Betty running the horse at full speed for the first scene and then the scene where she broke up the chair was perfect again! Joan's fiance is real! I never doubted it and he is cute. Very healthy showdown between Bets and Don even though he lied. Her looking like hell at breakfast was so real and he just went to work. I do not see her having an affair with the guy at the stable; he isn't attractive in the least. Great looks between her and Don in the bedroom; he finally blinked! His "Why would I lie to you?" during the Heineken pitch was again perfect. I predict the clients will object to the new script person and will insist on the person being Joan which will introduce new conflict between her and Roger and possibly between her and her fiance who seems to make it clear that once he is established he will not want her working. Tom Hanks son is great, but did he really expect Peggy to spill her guts in the office? It was interesting that Betty said one of her dinner recipes was from her German relative because she is showing some German no-nonsenseness with the phone call to Don to tell him to stay away. He really looked flummuxed drinking that beer in the office kitchen. I will now check out the scenes for next week!
Not sure....I think the theme has something to do with women in pain/women being exploited...I am far more interested in what goes on in the office than the other stuff on the show, but...Joan was obviously brilliant in her dealings with the scripts/TV dept./sponsors...and yet she sees some schmuck hired and Harry doesn't even think of her for the position. AND then they want to pick HER brain as to what they should do. Peggy is being exploited by Father Gill, both for her ability as a writer and as target for "redemption." And Betty is slowly going nuts in her jealousy and bottled up rage that Don is cheating on her.
Betty finally got a spine! Good for her! Its about time! I felt bad for Joan as she obviously enjoyed and excelled at reading the scripts. So, Harry hires some inept guy for the job. Yeah, like that is going to work. I wonder if Betty is going to divorce Don or at least kick him out of the house for a while? I think they should have the priest sing some more!
Warren is the the guy in Harry's office - I don't know who Mitch is. Betty finally got a spine....she threw the creep out. Betty isn't cracking up she finally sees the light.
I think Peggy is going to face Pete at least that's what the preview fr next week looks like.
So is Joan pregnant? Fiance says, "Joan, you should be watching those shows not reading them. With a box of bon bons on your lap to soothe your cravings." Is that why she's gaining weight and looking so buxom these days? :) The tight bra strap at the end?
Loved Betty's phone call at the end. And the commercial. This show is so great...genius and quick turns at every corner!
Harry is not a schmuck -- that's how it was always done. The secretary filled in, then someone was hired in - at $150 a week no less! - and she was expected to teach him then go back to her little desk and type with a smile on her face.
Gee when Don looked Betty straight in the eyes & swore nothing happened...I thought my god I wouldn't want to play poker with this guy. He's toooo goood. But after seeing Betty search through all his things & later watch the UTZ commercial with Jimmy, then tell Don not to come home? Well I'd have to give Betty the "champion" poker player to call the bluff even though your opponent has the "a pair of sixes" against your "royal flush". Crane's gonna lose those sponsors without Joan reading those scripts. That bozo he hired will spend more time telling stupid jokes to impress then to really get the feel for what the clients are looking for when booking a spot.
Why are you talking about crack instead of this brillantly acted show?!!! Roger ALWAYS grubs cigarettes!!! A week or two ago Don threw the cig at him and told him to leave his office!!!
Harry seriously disappointed me. Just when I thought he was cool, he basically uses Joan and then tosses her aside, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised at that kind of treatment now should I? I wanted her to get the job. Gobarack, I hope you're right. I hope the clients DO insist on Joan. Harry is being an idiot.
I'm glad Betty stood her ground with Don and put him out. Who else laughed when she asked how he could do that with Bobbie adding, "She's so old"?
Love the pre dinner ballet performance!
Crab's wife sure likes to drink!! Speaking of that, did anyone notice the Heinekin wasn't touched at the end of the dinner?
I don't doubt you, NancyStow, but it's horrifying, and poignant. I think for a moment Joan thought she might follow in the footsteps of Peggy. She deserved to.
I hope people won't get annoyed at me for asking, but does anyone thing Father Gill might end up having a secret thing for Peggy...or is it just concern?
Holy product placement, Batman! Isn't it ironic that a show that deals with sly advertising tactics is pulling one on its viewers? AMC Sales Department, to put it in Betty's words: "You embarrassed me." Keep Heineken on the commercial breaks, please. Remember: if the show is smart, so are the viewers; stop trying to get us to play dumb.
Re: Betty opening up a bottle of awesomeness
I love how Mrs. Draper grew a pair...and the proceeded to cut off Don's. I actually cried a few times during this episode. January Jones, I underestimated you.
Does anyone know why, right after seeing the Utz commercial on TV, Betty called Don and told him not to come home? She seemed to be thawing in the previous scene on Don's little couch-bed. What did she see in that commercial? Or maybe it reminded her of something that happened at the start of their affair and was reminded of it by seeing it or Jimmy?
It would have been hilarious if Roger said "You smoke crack?" and Harry said "Sometimes" though.
I didn't think Joan's fiancee was her type. Too preppy. Wonder how they met? Did she ever say? I felt bad for her that she wasn't even considered for the job, too. It was cool to see her in her hipster clothes and bare feet at her apt. She seemed younger (though not as young as her fiancee).
Did anyonecatch all of the comments around Joan refering to size? She tells Harry when he asks for help,"I don't know. We're spread very thin." Then Warren comments,"She's so much woman". Even Joan's fiance (very cute by the way) talks about her needing to look for a house and getting prepared to eat bon-bons.
mcmere - I had hoped for the same. I think customers will complain.
mte - LOL! I hate, loathe, despise and abominate that commercial. I really don't get it. If anything, it makes me purposely NOT want to book with hotels.com.
eternal_llama -- yes, the Thornbirds theme is definitely being set up.
Sitting up and watching the comments roll in is more fun that watching election returns with Tom Brokaw and Tim Russert!
(1) I do not think that Joan aspired to be anything then what she is - but once she got the job and was excited and inspired by it she wanted more. That's why it broke my heart
(2) I wondered about Father and Peggy and I do not think he has a thing for Peggy. Mind you I am a Roman Catch and was sitting on the edge of my seat at that last scene to see what he was gonna do in his room and when he pulled out the guitar I was a little relieved!!
(3) I think Peggy was soooo disgusted when she saw Jimmy's commercial - thinking how can (1) Don be involved with this idiot (2) how can he screw that sleazes wife.
I wouldn't say 'she's come undone". I'd say she's figured it out. I love that she grew a pair and told Don not to come home. She knew he was looking right at her and lying. I went through this tonight. Couldn't have been a better episode for me tonight. I'm trying to deal with exactly what Betty is dealing with. Joan obviously expected to be promoted as she should have been. She gave very vague ideas to the new guy. Betty is a conundrum, she asked Don to fix the outlet in the dining room, and Don say's "Thought you were going to call the electrician".She tells him exactly how to do it, and he says "Sounds like you could do it". But that's beside the point. She want's him to pull his weight. Wasn't particularly thrilled with the priest and Peggy's scenes. I say GO BETTY!
Joan pregnant? That's an interesting idea. You might be right. Why are they waiting to get married then? Shouldn't they hurry up? Though I thought she looked thinner at her place in pants than she does in dresses at the office. They were talking about buying a house, weren't they?
I think the fiance's comments were that Joan SHOULD be a stay-at-home pregnant wife, not that she is now. He made a comment about needing to finish his training after she said she stopped looking for a house in Glen Cove. He doesn't want her to get more involved at work aka build her career.
Joan has a special mojo that works on men and again I think the clients will want to work with her. In my limited experience many men will always choose to work with an attractive woman over someone ordinary.
As an aside: I do not remember Heineken beer being sold here in the States until about 1978 or so. Up until then it was Bud, Miller, Pabst and the other usual standbys.
ldraper - I'm so sorry. Been there, done that. Survived it and am MUCH better off. Hope you have lots of good friends to pull you through it. If not, you have us (the Maddicts!). Big hug!
Don really messed up his encounter with Betty in which he said, "I love you, Bets. I love the kids. I don't want to lose all this," or something like that. She wanted to hear that he loves HER and doesn't want to lose HER. (Plus, it might help if he told the truth!) And he's supposed to be able to tell what women want so he can sell it to them! Betty just walked off when he said that. Don just doesn't get it. Also, I had an ex-husband like Don--just deny, deny, deny.
Maybe because it brought back in full black and white the sleaziness of Don's business and his choice of a Jewish old woman to humiliate her with. It was like a slap in the face through the TV.
Does anyone know why, right after seeing the Utz commercial on TV, Betty called Don and told him not to come home? She seemed to be thawing in the previous scene on Don's little couch-bed. What did she see in that commercial?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As Mcmere pointed out the show centered around women being "used". Betty as a "market study", Joan for her reading & savvy input from client's pov, and Peggy for her ad expertise on the church flyers.
I think that another theme in this episode is about the characters being truthful to themselves about who they are and what they want.
1. Betty had to be truthful to herself about the nature of her marriage and also how Don regarded her and treated her.
2. Don has now been challenged by his wife to finally come clean and be truthful about how he lives his life and what kind of person he is.
3. Joan had to be truthful to herself about how she is regarded, her prospects, her goals and how she can possibly change her own life.
4. Peggy is challenged by her priest to be truthful to herself about any mistakes she's made and how she wants to continue. There's some evidence that she still isn't fully cogniscent her role in the office by the snarky comments Ken and the crew made.
I was totally heartbroken for Joan. I got such a high seeing Joan maneuver her own way to play at the table. I loved how she knew where to plug her charms and intellect. Then to see Roger casually cast her out of the running for an assistant position had me crushed. I have to hand it to the writers for that whirlwind of emotions.
I really hope that something turns around for Joan with that position. It was incredulous to see her felled by the boys club system. Last week and the week before, we saw how she realized that her looks could only take her so far as long as age knocked her off sexpot pedestal. Now it comes full circle and I felt her hurt at seeing her realize the whole game. Christina Hendricks deserves an Emmy, no question.
Betty had a similar blow delt to her with that dinner party--what a complete slap in the face--cheers to her for fighting back! I am completely satisfied with the way her arc is going. This needed to happen. Don is despicable at this point--loser unless he turns around and gives her the truth.
...and ps: of course this show is brilliant, lorantscan, it is 'continuity' that I am speaking about, not Whitney Houston!lol This show never misses it's mark, and I'm glad my hearing was off tonight! I agree w/u eternalllama re: Father Gill. I felt that way from the 1st time he met her. He is so young, though, wouldn't be questioned.
These episodes get better and better. I explained what the dash board headlight sensor did on the Cadillac to my missis ten seconds before Don did. He makes me look good. It's the sixties life, things and culture that they work into the show that make it soooo cool!!!
Joan is headed for trouble with that fiance. When he arrived home, he chastised her first thing for not setting the table. He "reminded" her to get him some water. He seems as though he will be very controlling.He also belittled her job by saying he thought all she did all day was walk around and get stared at. He is good-looking and possibly younger than she is. Let's hope Joan wises up before taking the big step with a guy who seems like a prime candidate for being a JERK!
Guy Smiley - I agree with you and I posted some simiIar observations before but I don't think Don purposely set out to embarrass Betty. He just can not take ANYONES feelings into consideration - it's not in his makeup as a person. And Roger commented how Joan's "attentions are divided at best" I do not think he purposely went to bring down Joan. He didn't know how much she liked it and he would ALWAYS give her what she really wants.
Did anyone else think Betty was a little oversensitive about the dinner party? I think it was more about how she felt she was being used in general. Things happening behind her back. Don knows her so well, he thinks, that he can sell her and turn around and fool her. She doesn't want to be humiliated. Being humiliated in social settings seems to be more important to her than anything. I think she didn't know what to believe until the nuts commercial. I think she saw Jimmy as Don - the salesman who'll say anything to sell a product.
NancyStowOh, Thank you so much! Its killing me. If they can lie to your face about one thing they can lie about anything . I'm finally waking up, but I'm definitly not going crazy, and neither is Betty. She had every reason to suspect Don. Why would you guy's say she's going crazy? She's figuring it out! Notice Joan's placement of her purse in front of her tummy in the office. The old hide the tummy with a big bag ploy. Don't think she's pregnant though.But who knows?
I think it might be because the commercial was about nuts and that combined with Jimmy probably convinced her that she wasn't going insane (aka nuts) after all.
Pete's blue pajamas,
Yes, I think Betty was oversensitive about the dinner party, but the tension has been building in her for a long time about Don's infidelity, so she would understandably be somewhat upset over finding out that Don used her in an experiment for work.
I think seeing Jimmy in the commercial just brought it all back - she saw Don and Bobbi together at the Stork Club that night and she knew something was going on - you can always tell when people are involved with each other. She knew it was true.
Being humiliated in social situations was a huge deal back in those days for anyone but esp. for women. Betty's whole persona is her family and her roles as wife and mother. So, any hint that she falls short of those roles would be humiliating, just as Don would be humiliated if anyone thought he was falling short at his work.
Was the music Father Gill was playing the Mamas and the Papas? I remember the song but not sure of the group.
Don's behavior was very typical - as Betty confronted him he tried to put it back on her AND SHE DIDN'T LET HIM! As been said by a lot of others on her, I have an ex-husband (alcoholic) like that. It was never what he did that was the problem - the problem was how I REACTED to what he did!
Betty: I know you're having an affair.
Don: How much have you been drinking?
Betty: How could you? She's OLD.
Don: I see how he looks at you.
Bravo to January for being seen without makeup. I have loved her from the beginning and I'm glad to see others appreciate her acting.
I think seeing Jimmy in that utterly crass commercial in which food is falling out of his mouth as he talks reminded her of the whole low-class nature of the affair. She told Jimmy that "you people are rude and ugly" or something like that. She saw Bobbi as old and probably ugly. Of course, seeing Jimmy unexpectedly on TV brought back the memory of that night in a powerful way. She can't escape it. I have always thought January Jones was brilliant in this role. I hope her detractors have changed their minds!!!
I just noticed (rewatching now) the juxtaposition of Peggy hugging her stomach after the priest left and the next shot - the oven in Betty's house. Bun in the oven!
brideo:
The music at the end was by Peter, Paul and Mary, who were an enormously popular folk-singing group in the sixties. I don't know the name of the song, just that it was very beautiful.
Hey JamieK, I would have said Don watched the movie:A Guide for the Married Man (starring Robert Morse)...but it didn't come out in theatres until 1967. But one of the first rules for being caught in an affair was ", deny, deny, deny".
I think Bets was trying to make a go of it but that commercial brought it all back and she knew she wasn't ready to pretend life was the same. Did anyone notice during the Heineken pitch Dutch nailed Bets describing her as "well-off, striving to be the perfect entertainer/ housewife, etc.." and Don visibly grimaced? I don't know if he didn't like her being characterized like that or he didn't like that Dutch noticed her striving and then he Don being so insensitive to her efforts.
Betty's reaction to the Utz potato chip commercial is simple - it's Jimmy Barrett, and every time she sees him, she will be reminded all over again about her husband's infidelity and his lies to her. She might have been thawing towards Don after the couch conversation, but just seeing Barrett's face was enough to bring back all the ugliness and the doubts about her husband.
I loved the shot of Joan from the rear when she lowered her strap and rubbed the sore, red spot on her shoulder. Well endowed women everywhere will know that feeling - I don't care how well your bra is fitted - at the end of long day, your shoulders ache.
I don't think Roger Sterling was refusing to give Joan the position with Harry - I think he had no clue Joan was involved to the extent she was. Harry certainly did not tell him. Harry should have been aware of Joan's value to him and spoken up about giving her the job or at least keeping part of the team. This will come back to haunt him, I am sure. I notice Harry is clueless alot of time - he completely missed the point of Roger's question re: the cigarettes - Roger is a total mooch - he'll take anything not nailed down in the way of women, smokes and booze.
I did not see Jane anywhere in this episode, so maybe she thought better of defying Joan and skedaddled?
betty's behavior is perfectly understandable given that she is absolutely right in "knowing" that don was screwing bobbi. her estimation of him is correct. he did it and he can't (or won't) help herself. someone used an apt term above - "gaslighting"... even though i don't like betty, no woman deserves to be treated that way.
don did what all chronically adulterous husbands do - deny, lie and if need be, claim the wife is delusional, crazy, hysterical. they will go so far as to defame the wife's sanity and behavior to other people, to build up a case against her so when the matter becomes public (in a divorce, for example) his witnesses, some of whom were friends of the couple, can attest to the wife's increasingly unstable behavior and her malicious accusations of the husband, who's a great guy. it happens all the time. the more practiced and habitual the adulterer, the better he will be at developing a persona and reputation of being a terrific friend, husband and father. wife beaters and emotional abusers do the same thing. and they often get away with it.
it's the normally faithful idiot who has a brief fling or one night stand and feels guilty, who will admit it if he's cornered and accused. not the professional cheater.
i hope that if don and betty separate and she fioles for divorce, somehow she finds an ally in bobbi, who will not only tell of her own affair with don, but give names of other women who "know" don.
NancyStow - like the boobs inference - Also Pete's Betty did not feel humiliated because she didn;t live up to being a perfect wife. She is a perfect wife to Don on the facade (to Duck, Roger, etc..) Betty was humiliated because at that MOMENT during the dinner party she felt she was being mocked for being so perfect.
Can anyone tell me the name of the song that Father sings and plays at the end of Episode 8, and then comes in with more singers over the end credits? Is this a known group, or was it recorded specially for the show?
Come on, Visan...even you have to admit that it was pretty cool of Betty to put Don out like that. She's finally acknowledging how she truly feels. I thought she would cave (it seemed she was about to before the commercial) but instead she stuck to her guns. It's a start.
Betty just wants to feel included in Don's life, as she's mentioned in the last few episodes. Don wasn't trying to not include her in the joke, but that's how it made her feel. Betty finally got to him, right where it hurts. She knew he was lying and made sure he knew she wasn't buying into his alibi. And now he is finally paying the price of his infidelity.
I think the priest and Peggy thing is a little weird. The priest wants to help Peggy, but he also comes off as wanting to know her more personally. Peggy is like a robot, she will not go any deeper wth anyone. I like seeing her get feisty, though! The way she conducts herself is with such elegance that I only want to see her get nasty with someone finally! But, that is not her character.
As for Don, well, his behavior is getting the best of him, and now that he can't live his double-life he is not sure what to do. He can no longer get his fill now when he decides to flirt with other women, where's the fun now that Betty knows? We will see what happens with that.
And I think everyone is right on the whole Joan preggers. The clothes not fitting, the bon bon comment, house searching? It may be true. Also, on imdb.com, the next episode is titled "Six Month Leave". Just saying.....
This is the only show that can get your emotions pulled in every direction. Last week, everybody (including myself) was moaning for Don and now we're moved for Betty.
This show is genius! You want to love Don for his good looks and mysterious nature, but at the same time, you want him to go down in flames for lying straight to Betty's face. No remorse!!
I am blown away by Betty's character. I didn't see this level of reaction, especially this early on. January Jones confirmed what I already thought, she is superb as this character!
Vison, that may have been Betty even a few episodes ago. She has been growing more aware every week . This week she came into her own. What make' you think she'll all of a sudden melt into a pool of mush?
Didn't you overhear Harry talking to the guys and saying something idiotic like "My work is done, I'm just showing up when she goes into labor..' when questioned about his wife's pregnancy? I guess we are still a few years away from Lamaze and childbirth training for couples. Anybody know when that came into popularity?
I think Betty is very sensitive to the possibility of being mocked behind her back. A childlike person like her probably would have been mocked throughout her life. She would probably have been the person who didn't "get it." At the dinner party, she was standing up proudly and describing the international theme of the dinner, and people laughed. Poor Betty. She had tried so hard, and people laughed.
When Betty was going through Don's suits and desk, I thought she was going to discover the box that Pete originally took home and snooped through.Whew! One of the drawers was locked. I wonder if she'll eventually want to know what's in the locked drawer?
E_llama: I will never give Betty credit because ther are people with REAL problems in 1962. The fracture of her "perfect" life ain't one of 'em!
Have to say this, because for some bizarre reason, some get the impression that my dissing the "Betty" character is my dissing Jan Jones. Hells to the naw! Jan Jones (Christina Hendricks and Elisabeth Moss too!) kicks ass every week in that role! And it's a damn shame none got an Emmy nod!
Jon Hamm has to take one home for the whole cast, I guess!
I thought Betty was going to find that box, too! But Don is smarter than that to just leave things lying around. When will they do a flashback again? I love when they do that.
I liked the truth theme. The truth about who we are. The ending where we see Joan undressing, Peggy in the tub, and also Fr. Gill taking off his collar. The "stripping down to who we really are" vs. what people see on the outside theme made sense.
Don and Betty appear to have it all together, Peggy appears to have put her past behind her, Joan appears to want to be the happy fiance getting ready for married life, and Fr. Gill appears to be concerned about Peggy's soul.
The truth behind all of these characters is quite contrary. Don and Betty's marriage is hitting a boiling point, Peggy can't keep pretending her past never happened, Joan is realizing that maybe the dutiful wife role is a lot less appealing than making things happen in the business world, and Fr. Gill may be realizing that he has feelings that go beyond his priestly duties for Peggy.
Don is probably very afraid right about now. He thought he could just deny the whole thing and Betty would believe him. That's what he does so well--sell things to people.
Considering his deprived background as Dick Whitman, he would probably be especially terrified of losing the lifestyle he now enjoys with a beautiful home, beautiful wife, and great kids. And to lose it all over the affair with BOBBI! He was never in love with her as he appeared to be with Rachel and the earlier woman.
By the way, if Betty becomes single, Don's predatory co-workers will probably by vying for who can get to her first.
I didn't see people laugh at Betty during the dinner party; I was impressed! I hardly ever entertain because it is so much damn work and I have a husband who cooks!
I'm with you! She's a wussy little thing. She seems to have no identity apart from being Mrs. Don Draper. I just don't see any "inner steel" in Betty at all.
Did anyone notice when she was going through Don's desk and she found the little valentine their daughter made him, she made a disgusted little grimace and tossed it aside?!
Honestly, I don't think she loves Don OR the kids. It's all about status. Would be interesting to see some flashbacks on HER former life. How did she get so ice cold?
Someone commented on here that Don will just lie to anyone--- deny, deny, deny. I've mentioned before that I think he's a sociopath. This is a person with a COMPLETE lack of conscience. Whatever benefits Don, is just fine with Don, and that's what Don does. Yukkk.
In the first scene, Don was squarely on Betty's side of the bed... he looked funny there. But he was squarely back on his side after a brief cutaway. Mistake? or hidden meaning? I think mistake.
Hey there Carrie B., my take on your question is this: even after Jimmie telling Betty about Don and Bobby, Betty soldiers on. She prepares a lovely dinner party; she's dressed to perfection in her perfect suburban housewife wear. When she feels like the butt of a joke over the Heineken/product placement/survey business she feels left out and used - again and by whom? Don - again. The anger and the feelings of betrayal continue to come to the surface for her. Notice that she remains in her perfect hostess garb for a couple of days. It's her identity and she maintains that costume and she holds on to that "front" for dear life. It may be all she has. Even though when he leaves for work it's slipping a little -notice one of her straps has fallen off her shoulder and her hair has fallen out of it's perfect hold "flip" . She looks for any evidence she can to strengthen her argument with Don, anything she can find to force him to admit he's been a sleeze and she can't find anything. He comes in and finds her sitting on the bed, she's feeling defeated at not finding anything to fight him with and that dress is looking like a wad of crumpled paper.
When she awakens him while he's sleeping on the couch she's finally let go of some of this. She tells him she doesn't want to be the way they have been . You can tell that she's thought about this all night, she's decided that even though she still has no real closure on this she'll have to find a way to live in it. She's finally taken off the costume/perfect hostess dress. She's obvioulsy showered and washed away some of the broken-ness of it and is in that white robe. Clean slate? New beginning? She's washed her hair and while it's not pert it is also no longer looking like it was "whacked". out of it's perfection.
While she's not on solid ground she's moving toward pulling things back together to some semblance of order for herself. She puts on another perfectly correct ensemble with the requisite "Dippity-Do" flip, and has a perfectly correct dinner in the oven and then she sees Jimmie in the Utz commercial and everything she has managed to re-order during the day is shot to hell and because she had to handle all of those emotions on her own without benefit of her husband's respectful participation in their marriage, seeing Jimmy takes her right back to the night he told her everything and now it's even worse. A bomb goes off in dear Betty. She tells him to stay his ass away.
To those who don't feel Betty has a "real problem." Infidelity in a marriage can be a "real problem." I have been the victim of it, as I'm sure others have on this board, and it can be devastating. Yes, she is not dying, starving to death, homeless, etc., but the suffering caused by infidelity and deceit is REAL suffering.
Something happened to make Dick want to leave so badly that he was willing to switch identities to become Don. He is not a sociopath, but he is someone with some serious psychosocial issues, we just have no clue what or why. We know his family issues, that's all, but what happened to make things so horrible? And why does he feel the need to constantly start over with new women?? Besides it being the lifestyle of the time.
Now that someone says something (Betty) about it and he sees the consequences, what can we expect from Don?
Hey Visan- I love how you always keep it real. Betty is privleged and Don's cheating in the big picture isn't the end of the world, but I think January Jones did an excellent job of showing how in Betty's own mind the betrayal was very big and cut her to the bone. I did feel for her this time in a way I usually don't.
I knew you would be ready to take Don off her hands for her though! LOL! You'll be leaving the light on, right? Tee-hee-hee!:)
@JamieK: See, Betty not going into a store because she and Don are having a little tiff, that's an issue. But a woman not being able to enter a store because of her skin color, is a REAL problem that may be faced by her housekeeper!
I'm talking about some fake TV characters. And I really don't delve into posters' personal lives because I feel that's none of my business. I wish all who post here a lot of love and luck but I stay away from folks' personal business.
Re: Joan's poor shoulder, that's chafing -- exactly what her little office pet image has brought her to. Did you like how she asked her fiance if he wanted anything, and when he responded "water" she sat down obliviously? And she's on birth control folks, from the pilot -- 99.5% sure she's not knocked up.
@GemCat63: Didn't Don burn that stuff from his brother last season? Or is that a false memory?
Betty & Don are in surprisingly similar straits. Betty is watching the facade of her perfect life crumble around her, clinging to her "Pride" (furniture polish) & tending to her casserole while putting her hubby out for the night. Don can't look at himself in the mirror and is starting to realize that just saying something doesn't make it so. He's watching the carefully constructed pieces of his life come apart at the seams. I keep waiting for the hammer to drop: what is the terrible secret that keeps Don clinging to the lies that are so obvious to those around him?
I don't think Don is a sociopath. He is depressed and is a sex addict, I think. He seemed to feel obligated to succumb to Bobbi's advances even though, at least at first, he didn't seem to want her.
He has to be looking over his shoulder all the time because of his false identity. He wears a mask all the time, even at home. It's got to be stressful. He has built a very successful lifestyle and has a lot to lose. If he had no guilt, we would not see those guilty looks on his face so much. He would probably be smirking as he put something over on someone. Don feels guilt all right, but he gives in to temptation anyway. "You can't help yourself," as Betty says.
Don does have feelings and does feel like shit after he does what he does... and yet he does it anyway... Betty IS RIGHT... "you just can't help yourself"... because she knows what it's like to be caught up in "The Don Draper Effect"... she knows that Don's a guy that can literally get any thing that he wants, anyone he wants any time... that's what the girl in the bar was about... women LITERALLY walk up to him and make themselves available for him... the women in the train as he and the other officer were escorting the body of the real Don Draper was the beginning, the symbolic beginning of him being irresistable... well... that's got to be a dangerous quality to have for a married man with big business interests to safeguard... right as his career is peaking, his personal life is falling, the classic paradox of having it all...
the 1950s ethic of materialistic social giganticism begins turns inward and slowly festers... Roger's wife knows and lives through Roger being the glittering, rich prick with all his women and boozing social male exhibitionism but Don who's been weened on it now has to face living with a women who cross-generational... she finds suddenly she CAN'T be her mother, can't be Grace Kelly, and yet is still a guilded lilly with a dark side toating a smoke and an air rifle shooting at the neighbours pigeons... Don's finding out "the little lady" won't put up with what Roger Sterling dished out to his wife... now each has to decide what it means... how will they live with it OR what will they do about it?
MTE; I've watched that commercial so many times and have NEVER figured out what the heck the sponsers are trying to tell me. It is one of the most stupid spots I've ever seen. I have to admit it , though, It's always given me a really 'creepy' feeling...ick!
Silly me, I took Roger's comments about the "full-time position, $150/week, and he has to share an office" to mean that Harry was to hire Joan and "he has to share an office" was referring to the guy already working with Harry, who would share an office with Joan. They were talking about Joan, Harry acknowledged it was just Joan, and Roger mentioned the unsolicited calls from the clients. I'm so naiive!! DUH.
Thank you JamieK. She may not have a world crisis on her hands, but its HER problem. You can feel bad for others and what they're going through, but nothing compares to what you personally go through.
VISAN: I'm not trying to get started with you again, but what exactly do you find flakey about Betty? Be specific.
Up until now, what has she had to go on? He took her places, bought her furs, jewelry, etc. It seems to me she always felt the problem lied with her, so she tried to fix herself. Now she knows different. So I ask, what is so repulsive about her? Specifically?
The "new" guy is hired at $150.00 a week! I remember when Pete and his wife were shopping for their new apartment, Pete said he made only $35.00 a week! Have things changed that much in two years?
Well things have certainly been simmering all week for Betty. From the Monday Night out for Jimmy until the dinner on Saturday night at their home. I imagined that I heard Jimmy on the TV that the children were watching during the angry chair scene which was BEFORE the dinner. Betty just needed some small thing like the beer issue to reach her tipping point over the real issue - that being the Jimmy/Bobbi affair.
Did anybody else notice Joan's little girl voice back at the apartment with her fiance'?
How bout Campbell offering the beer to the Heiniken guys at 11 AM? For *Pete's Sake*
The group singing at this episode's conclusion is Peter, Paul and Mary. Their debut album "Peter, Paul and Mary" was released in 1962. I'll have to watch the end one more time to pick out which song it actually is.
Betty was courageous and unwavering. She repeatedly gave Don opportunities to be truthful. Don's life-long deep seated issues center on deception, conflict between intimacy and rejection and an inability to confront himself let alone answer to others for his actions. Tonight Betty started dismantling that facade. She has her own issues but showed depth and courage. The numerous other characters are consistently portrayed as being complex as well. Absolutely great writing and acting!
laVidaLol, PLEASE! How can you say that Betty has no steel? To another poster, Betty is going through a real problem. How much worse can it be than to find out your spouse is cheating?Yes, she has all the trappings of what most women think they might want, but she isn't happy. She needs real affection. Everyone does. By the way, the poster who mentioned Joan's future, I have lived it and it isn't fun. Doctors are never home, they are always on call and just to get a vacation once in every three years is a miracle. I say to Joan be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
I see several people have expressed disappointment that Joan - who was extremely competent - wasn't even considered for the job of Harry's assistant. That Joan deserves not just to be Harry's assistant, but that she actually deserves Harry's job. That hiring some presumably less competent man, and simply expecting Joan to help him do the job she was already doing highly successfully isn't fair, isn't nice, is an example of how women were mistreated, etc.
Maybe so.
But in fairness, has anyone stopped to consider that Joan doesn't appear to have said - to Harry or to Roger (as far as we can tell) - that she'd like the job?
Sure, she seemed to enjoy it. And - again - she was really good at it. But that doesn't automatically mean Harry, Roger, or whomever else was involved, should simply know that Joan wants to give up being the office manager, in order to take up this new and very different job as a permanent thing.
Contrast this to Peggy's behavior. Peggy broke into a "men only" job, but she did so in part by actively pursuing that as an objective. She made it crystal clear to all involved - and particularly to Don - that she wanted to be a copywriter. That this was what she desired, and that her efforts entitled her to the title.
Joan was far more passive. She never hinted to anyone that she wanted to change jobs at Sterling Cooper. That she was dissatisfied with her current position at the firm. That she was aspiring to more, or at least to different challenges.
Or, to look at it another way, tonight we saw Betty finally abandon silence and passivity. And we saw one of the the series' more seemingly self-confident, capable, and assertive female characters suffer, due (at least in part) to her failure to speak up for herself.
I don't want others to think I take infedelity lightly either. I too have been in Betty's shoes, only mine weren't designer. It was the beginning of the end of my first marriage and I had a child too. Humor has always been my best defense and it has aloud me to move on. I don't mean to offend.
It's all good now, and I later did meet a really great guy. We've been married almost 14 years now. I guess the scene where Betty sees Jimmy Barrett's Utz commercial, is like this show felt for those of you who still carry the pain of infedelity close. It's just a reminder of how it doesn't seem that it will ever go away. Take it from someone who has been there, it will eventually, but you have to work at it. Laughter helps.
I think VISAN just has a thing against Betty solely because she likes Don and wants to do him, and blah, blah, blah. When you've been hurt by the person you love and your marriage may be in distress, thats just an issue???
People talk about Betty being cold, but that sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black.
Also, VISAN, you say that your just commenting on characters, but that cannot be when you site issues and problems that real people face. Many people on here are posting the own personal feelings. If you personally knew Betty or Don, are you saying that you wouldn't still have the same thoughts and perceptions of the "characters"?
@Swanky: You know I call it out! While Betty's at some swish soiree, people were being hit upside the head, trying to get the right to enter a voting booth. Gay folks couldn't even love other gay folks without risk of jail and/or mental institutions. Her problems are minimal compared to REAL legal barriers others faced!
Visan and hotcho: actually, you are both right. No pseudo-diplomacy here. . . . You are seriously both right! Totally different opinions that can't be reconciled but are both correct.
Harry (and all the other guys) are totally oblivious to Joan's value except as eye candy to them. It would never occur to any of them that Joan could - and would want to - do the job they're hiring a man to do. It's what sets Peggy's move out of the secretarial pool apart, but she's had to become "one of the guys" to blend in. The fact that Joan's expected to train her replacement goes without saying. They would have been dumbfounded had she even slightly demurred.
If I was Joan, I would tell Harry to find someone else to assist. He'll find out soon enough that the clients like HER. She have him in a pigeon hold and maybe can get what she wants!
Whoever mentioned 'gaslighting' being apt, seems not to have
ever seen Bergman (Ingrid, not Ingmar) and Charles Boyer in
"Gaslight" about a Victorian husband trying to drive his beautiful wife insane i.e. the term 'gaslighting'.
Just a brief follow-up to my post of a couple of minutes ago -
Much of this assumes that Joan would have wanted a new job, as Harry's assistant. This is a huge assumption. I think, had Harry come right out and said to her, "Joan, you're fantastic at this stuff. I've gotten the go ahead to hire an assistant. If you want it, the job is yours," Joan might well have declined the offer.
She'd likely have appreciated the thought. And maybe thought well of Harry for recognizing her talent. But for all that she appeared to enjoy what she was doing, it's by no means clear that she'd choose to give up her job as office manager.
(And let's be real here, people - it would mean giving up her current position. Neither job is really a part-time thing. It's very much an either/or sort of choice.)
Betty isn't letting Don get away on this one. She wants to be more than a trophy wife to him. She also wants to be seen as the perfect wife, and the fact that he embarrasses her in front of their guests humiliates her. She tells him this and he does not understand until the next day meeting when Duck makes the comment about being the perfect wife. Don gets it then, and he realizes what she truly meant by her outburst. At the same time, he still can't commit to her.
@ Hapynzap, Joan's voice was definitely weird, I thought at first it was the sound but then I realized she'd taken on a different persona, or rather dropped the front she takes at the office. It got a little less coquettish at the end though.
Campbell is such a douche. I don't understand why Don puts up with him -- or furthermore, when Pete's father dies he runs right into Don's office for consolation, after exposing him to Cooper? I lol'd at Don's "what the hell are you still doing here" shrug to get rid of him.
The first scene with Don in bed was first through the mirror, then cuts back straight on Don. Also, I noticed twice tonight that when Betty, then Don, come through their front door, there is another solid white door right outside the door they enter through. What is that? Almost looks like an apartment but is it a "vestibule"? Is that the word?
I also noticed how uncomfortable Father was as he was getting undressed. He looked almost relieved to take off his gear. Also Betty seemed to be back more towards 50's housewife dresses in this episode--intentional?
Why do we need to "compare" problems and discount real pain felt by people as being trivial? You seem to be equating the pain caused by social injustice with the personal pain created by infidelity on the part of a beloved person thought to be one's life partner, perhaps the co-parent of one's children. It's like apples and oranges. Pain on both accounts is REAL. Also, does someone suffer less because he or she is well-off financially? Good-looking? I just don't understand indifference to suffering, whatever its cause.
Ironic how in Season1 ("Indian Summer") Don scolded Betty for allowing the a/c salesman into "my (Don's) house". Now, Betty bans Don from the house--and he obeys! HA!
Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
The ragging horse scene with Betty immediately reminded me of Alfred Hitchcocks film "Marnie" a film made around this time. Both women are coming apart and married to complicated and some what animalistic men.
Michael w/ all of the numbers- Good point about Joan's lack of assertiveness. For a gal that likes to be the boss and is assertive w/ the ofice girls, she didn't really assert herself in this case.
It's also fitting that she had just recently said to Peggy, "I don't want to be in their world," but that once she gets the opportunity to see into their world she realizes that she really does like it.
She was just green w/ envy over Peggy.
NancyStowOH made a good comment on how Joan being just a fill in was really how it was usually done back then. I remember my mom telling me a story similar to this when she was a secretary. She was asked to fill in for a man's position while he was out for an extended period of time and still keep up with her other duties for no extra pay. (Notice Joan taking the work home) When the guy returned months later he picked up his old position and salary, that was more than double hers without skipping a beat. We have done a lot better since then.
The priest idea is going too far. I knew they were gonna develop his character more when they hired Colin Hanks to play the part. When he discovered she had a child he decided to help her, but his ways of going about it are strange and unprofessional. She was in her place of work, why would she mention her child there?? And to admit it was a sin and talk about it is not Peggy's thing. She is being forced to admit it when it will only cause pain. Same for Don I suppose.
visan, I agree that gays should have equal rights and women shouldn't be beaten up, and all people have the right to vote. {Go Obama} All of these are ligit concerns for all people, but they do not take away from other peoples real pain.
So am i the only person to notice MTE here in the conversation @11:19 has posted a foto of a chic in a Florida Seminoles cheerleading outfit with no panties on !! MadMen is a sexual show , but the crouch watch is really not needed here , is it ?
That was no 'charactor" January Jones was playing in tonight's episode...It was me. God, I could almost 'smell' the cedar of closet, the cologne from the suits, as she reach in each pocket searching for something, anything. This series could not be more real, more personal, more riveting. Mr. Wiener, could I have my diary back, please?
Redhead: This is what I'm saying, if this season is all about women's suffering, then couldn't Carla, the housekeeper, be part of that story arc? She could give yet another different perspective. Just like Sheila could, who's younger.
The experiences of women of color--Black, Asian, Latina--ARE women's stories. I just find it would be remiss not to include that! Just sayin'!
@vizan, for me the absolute strongest point of this show is understatement. What better time to frame these characters with these (admittedly navel-gazing) problems than against a historical background of one of the most tumultous times in American history. The presidency of JFK is going to see the rise of MLK and Malcolm X, the Bay of Pigs, and folks like Timothy Leary and Ken Kesey making headlines. Sterling Cooper is about appearances and desires. It's the opposite of reality, much like the lives of most of its employees.
Visan: I so much want to the writers to present us with the perspectives of the people "from the other side of the tracks". I have no doubt that their stories are very painful and need to be told. Carla especially intrigues me.
That MTE poster is a freak-how lame is it to get your freak on the MM message boards?! So utterly stupid.
I was stunned that Joan didn't say anything. But , be fore warned Joan isn't stupid and the episodes are merely glimpes of a work moment in a day. I can see Joan working her way back into that role of working in the TV deptment. Or maybe Jane ( Drapers Sec. ) has a spot working with Roger , perhaps getting the youths opinion on a product in the Future.
Either way it's a great show , slightly tame ... tonight would have been a great opportunity for Betty to Welcome Don home with a left uppercut verse a phone call !
Visan: I so much want to the writers to present us with the perspectives of the people "from the other side of the tracks". I have no doubt that their stories are very painful and need to be told. Carla especially intrigues me.
That MTE poster is a freak-how lame is it to get your freak on the MM message boards?! So utterly stupid.
I'm wondering how this show, if it jumps to 1964 next season, will tackle JFK's killing and racist terror bombings (both occurred in 1963). What are the SC folks going to do when these things occur? They can't just go around, lighting up ciggies when JFK is shot! Reality of a larger world will soon have to set in for some of the SC dumb-asses!
Presently its 1962 , so a lot is going to be happening as pointed out here. Protests, lots of Pot smoking, Perhaps Betty will be stepping out or in with another ...
Visan, it would be great to see the housekeeper, Carla, be more fully developed. We could also see more of Paul and his black girlfriend. I think people of color are not more fully represented in the show because the races were so separated during that time period. It may be a while before Sterling Cooper hires a black employee. Those were just the times, but that will change in the future on the show as it did in real life.
Was I the only one that noticed that the continuity was flawed in this episode? The first shot of the dining room table included the kitchen chair (her seat... to substitute for the broken one), then the next shots included the usual arm chair.
In response to the blog below... the word was not Crack. I think it was Crane -or something like that.
JOAN:
i'm shocked that Joan did not speak-up for herself... I know it was necessary to show a different side of her, but it's just a little shocking. I think her bra strap moment was maybe an introduction to the character starting to hate what she's known for and wish that she could be seen in another light -perhaps she will opt. for a breast reduction (maybe the first in history?) just to be taken seriously in her career. Also, why did i get the impression that neither her nor the dr. actually "love" each other? they may not ever get married.
BETTY:
I understand what they were trying to do w/her role tonight, but it seemed like a big stretch. in those days, a girl like betty would never confront a man like Don that way... she would worry that she has too much to loose. Nevertheless, her acting was Excellent as uaual and I can't wait to see if she ever let's him back in.
Funny, during the entire show, I thought betty was going to go to Bobbie just to get her ans. through reading Bobbie's eyes.
PEGGY:
"Interesting"! I'm always amazed how she decides to handle certain matters. On one hand, she has no problem saying "No", but on the other hand, she can't seem to ever say "No" when it's for her own good. I hope they're not running out of juicy stuff for her character.
DON:
I love him and he does NO WRONG! Although he is a cocky, lying, cheating-bastard, it's the "Bad Boy" that makes him the man all men want to be and the man all women want (including Betty). I would have been disappointed if he had wimped out and told her the truth. as we all know... "You Never Do That" unless there is real evidence :-). not to mention the fact he has to protect Bobbie.
STERLING:
He would never have allowed Joan to be promoted, because he likes to have her where she is -beneath him (literally). He (nor the other guy) ever really considered her because she is seen as "the sex potl" and unless she speaks up, it's Hopeless.
Ok, I think that's all the thoughts I have -can't wait for nxt week.
Predictions:
1) Betty will have an affair of her own.
2)Duck will commit suicide.
3)Roger will sabotage Joan's engagement.
4)Sal and Cosgrove will have a gay affair.
5)Don will beat up the comedian Barret.
6)The priest will be found to be a pedophile.
7)Peter will find out about the baby.
As for Peggy she just keeps Strolling along ... and everything perhaps is building up or maybe she just lets it go. I'd like to see her start running the office and team up with Salavodore(sp) and driving clients in ... maybe this church poster pro-bono will develope into something.
I think the point the show actually makes through its secondary inclusion of those 'background' African American (and arguably) ethnic Americans is that in that time, among most Anglo Whites, those people virtually didn't exist and pretty much were in the background as silent observers. I actually relish the little asides of the black characters that pass in and out of the scenes as extras. Sometimes I feel like you could argue the same point now. The ad world of today is certainly still sparsely populated with non-white faces.
As a black Latino, just hearing stories my dad told me about being an immigrant teen from the Dominican Republic in 60s New York, it's obvious that New York treated its people of color like an invisible herd. I would love to see black and non-white actors get some more lines on the show, but I honestly like the idea of how the show actually puts more of a microscope on the myopic world of WASP whites at that time. I think in a lot of way the show examines what was problematic about their values (and the reinforcement of them via Madison Avenue) and how they basically have brought us to these lunatic times today.
I actually think that some changes are in the wings regarding this anyway: The major cultural waves that will forever change American society are imminent. Cuba has already been alluded to. JFK hasn't died yet. The rise of civil rights has not swept in yet. Give it some time.
The priest character may be there to prod Peggy. She is very reserved and keeps her own counsel. If no one prods her, she's just going to keep everything in and say nothing as usual. He does seem attracted to her, though. She doesn't seem to reciprocate.
In response to Blogger: GuySmiley on September 15, 2008 1:36 AM...
That is EXACTLY the way it was back then and in many homes/communities today -Trust Me!
So, unless the show lasts long enough to come into the late '70's or early '80's, they won't ever have lines. SAD, but True!
Speaking of the closing song (search the thread for Peter, Paul and Mary), I enjoy the music at the end of most episodes (last week: Break It To Me Gently). It's like waking up from a nice dream, or coming out of a trance. However I just about jumped out of my skin this week.
it's obvious you've never had one "In Bed"! LOL... i'm just joking, but seriously -it's what has made him the Star of the show. Do you think it's for any other reason? it's in the title :-).
Someone in the office will be fired.
Duck might be killed , lost in a boating adventure or hunting accident.
Cranes wife looses the baby. Peggy starts dating an OLDER man. Peggy may run into betty one day and they have lunch, But Peggy will be Mum. Salvatore quietly yearns for Cosgrove.
Jane the girl ... Hhmm starts rumors about Joans age , which will be the second time mentioned in the office. Don will be blond sided as his Past of the REAL Don Draper starts seeping thru the cracks. And it was " Crane , you smoke ? " not crack.
Hey jacklq, I believe you! I don't doubt that for a second.
I've known white people who told me that they never thought black people could be intelligent, or even that black women could be beautiful until they saw the likes of Diahann Carroll as Julia or even Diana Ross and the Supremes on TV, and I don't even think those images hit the airwaves until '64 and up.
I mean, thinking about how the Puerto Rican Young Lions campaigned against garbage dumping in NYC's Latino neighborhoods in the late '60s, I can't imagine that the city or most white people cared.
* * * *
The great thing this show does is remove us from our comfortable delusions about how upstanding we are as Americans. I think those delusions have been often manipulated for us by the media and advertising. The show talks so much about that. So instead of facing our problems, we believe in this visage of the happy group with the token black friend, laughing in the convertible and popping Pringles in their mouths, all thin and fit in the sunshine and we're thinking--"Yeah! America rocks! No problems here!"
America does rock. I love America and I love being an American. I hate hate hate those Europeans who pedanticly chide us as "you Americans".
But y'all, America has problems. We get so shocked and surprised when something crazy happens here, or how crazy our society has become, and we have to face the truth about ourselves. The show so far has been fabulous for encouraging that.
Visan, I do hear what you're saying, but I'd point out that by 1964, JFK's death was not something that the typical person thought about all that much or all that deeply. Nor did it have any huge effect on most work places.
This is not to diminish the JFK assassination's historical significance. Or to deny the fact that immediately after the event, most people did devote considerable thought to it.
It's just that after a few months, it became, for the most part, and for most people and businesses, very much a thing of the past. People who went around lighting up ciggies while JFK was alive, pretty much went on lighting up ciggies in 1964.
There's really no need for the writers to "tackle" the event. To make note of it, fine. But unless an episode were set in late November 1963, it's just not an event that was profound and integral to the average person's life beyond a brief period when it was still fresh, and people were still in shock over it.
If you watch the tv shows (drama, comedy, other) that were actually filmed and initially aired in 1964, you'll find that few of them paid more than passing mention, if that, to JFK's assassination.
As for racist terror bombings, these simply weren't in the forefront of most New Yorker's minds at the time. If a bombing happened to be reported on the front page of the Times that day, they'd perhaps read it. But it's probably fair to say that for most of the characters in Mad Men, theses events existed only at the far edges of their daily awareness, and often not even there.
I agree that if Mad Men were a series primarily about the social unrest of the 1960s, or the various liberation movements (women, homosexual, black, etc.) of that era, one might reasonably expect to see these things prominently featured in episode after episode. But this is essentially a series about a Madison Ave. advertising firm, the white people working there, and their friends and families. (And at that, it's mostly about the white collar employees at that firm.) To portray more than a small percentage of these people as having been regularly and meaningfully involved in most of the more transformative societal movements of era is to present the audience with a view through a highly distortive lens.
And while it might be perfectly valid to create a tv series that so skews the characters' perspectives from what they would, in reality, have been, Mad Men is not such a tv series, nor does it claim to be.
The locker room comments men made toward women back then were degrading to be sure. But even if you didn't agree with making such comments I bet that many men still made them in order to be seen as one of the boys. One only has to remember the popular book "The Man In The Grey Flannel Suit" to understand that they too could be trapped into little boxes of societies expectations.
I would really like to see Bert Cooper get involved with some young ambitious woman who makes all the employees nervous. Is he married? They could be worried she would take over. Bert could be gaga over her. That would be interesting.
The song sang is "Early in the Morning " by Peter Paul & Mary.
Every week I am amazed at the depth of each scene. It was great to see that Joan reveal her desires to be more, I always thought that she was proud/jealous of Peggy for wanting to be more than she was. All of these women are in turmoil, it will be interesting to see how they evolve!
JamieK : Cooper might be to old for a wife Or perhaps has one and She hasn't been seen. Better yet he has a daughter in college, who after graduating comes to work in the office and is really loose Free love Free Thinking an early womans Liber , a real flower child with a mout and a brain / body combo scaring the men and shaking up the women or the office.
I liked that the poster for the last CYO dance was a bunch of girls skipping around a maypole.
This show is so good. I wish it were on for 90 minutes instead of 60.
Eric, too old for a wife? Any old guy can find a wife if he's rich enough. (Think of Anna Nicole Smith and her elderly millionaire husband.) But, yes, a daughter would work too if she threatened to rock the good-old-boys boat at SC. If she is open to "free love," she would certainly have Roger to contend with. Wonder what that would do to the partnership.
I'm talking about the odd ball daughter Janis Jolin , Lenny Bruce female type a real out spoken Bitch that hates progress and is burning her bra as she wears it to the office.
I'm talking about the odd ball daughter Janis Joplin , Lenny Bruce female type a real out spoken Bitch that hates progress and is burning her bra as she wears it to the office.
As for free love . We all remember when Cooper called Don in because the department store client " the Father " was asking about his account and having Don on it with his Daughter. Well of boy Don was on her Quick free Love ... doing the Client after the meetings.
First things first, THANKS AMC FOR SENDING ME A HAT! You're the first talkback forum - in my decade of posting on forums - that's actually sent me a gift for my opinion. Thank you very much! And I got it rather quickly. Thanks.
WOW! Everyone got run through the ringer in this episode, didn't they?
Can I just say, seeing Betty in her dress for 2 days reminds me of some of the fights my parents used to have where everything was a completely mess for days until someone just got tired of it and cleaned up.
My heart ached for Joan for not getting the job in the television division. It was probably the first time in years she's actually gotten some satisfaction from work. She was so happy doing it. I hope she stands her ground and asks to do the job later on.
Don, what a liar you are!
Good for Betty for telling him to not come home. I was cheering for her.
Father Gil needs to let it go.
I hope Peggy can stand her ground as well.
I'm very excited for next week. I wonder if this is the "showdown" we're supposed to get between Pete and Peggy. I hope Peggy has a frying pan handy.
I think that the mentions about Joan not setting the table, forgetting the water for her guy and the rubbing of the shoulder w/the bra (brests getting bugger) are her being pregnant. You are forgetful when you are pregnant and they dont seem to really love each other. so maybe it is a marriage of convienence?
I said it when I saw the Jimmy Kimmel show, Joan looks pregnant in real life. Her loose black dress and thick legs. So, they would work it into the show.
Kudos to Betty for putting a hammer to Don's perfect family picture by denying him entry back into it - 'bout time, Betty!
What I've noticed about Don when challenged or confronted in one of his myriad lies, is that Don's quick to respond with the pat, smooth answer, but when his accuser is right and won't break eye contact, Don always strolls away........coward! And he resorted to the traditional response from a manipulative controller - trying to turn the tables on Betty with the "have you been drinking? You have a problem, etc". Finally, Betty didn't back down but had the courage of her suspicions to face them.
For any of those out there who don't think Betty's suffering - you're nuts. It's called a broken heart, folks. It's not about the perfect home, the $$, the beautiful husband. It's about finding out that you're not really loved in any kind of good way and that you bought into a lot ideas (about love, marriage, home) that have just disintegrated before your eyes. When you've lost everything that you built a life on, well, if that doesn't break your heart, and isn't heartbreaking, I don't what is. It's the death of your life as you were living it on several planes (emotional, intellectual, social). Who wouldn't be crazed and despairing?
Also, for Betty, what Don can beat her with in court are her psychiatrist visits and the nightgown/BB gun incident. Not exactly stellar examples of Betty's mental competency (for the era).
who will betty marry next the horse riding college student...the soon to be divorced comedian.... or the couple she is planning to spend the weekend with.....next two episode[s]? lol
Did anyone else catch the line from Crab Cowan (Don's dinner guest, from the Rogers & Cowan company?) to Duck Phillips: "you should come to Rogers & Cowan sometime, it's pretty nice over there?" or something like that. It was said in passing to Duck, but I got the impression it was a VERY subtle invitation to join his company.....another advertising firm?
At the final scene where Don was drinking his beer I thought for one moment he was in Peggy's apartment. She is who he turned to before when he needed rescuing..just a thought.
Yay! My favorite sleazy man is back! (I'm sorry everyone I know he's awful but I loves me some Petey! =P) lolz
Also, I know I wasn't the only one saying "You go girl!" to the tv when betty finally stood up to Don and kicked his cheating ass out! Lolz
And I felt horrible for Joan, you could tell how upset she was when Harry "replaced" her. She deserves to have his job. Keep on keepin on Joanie baby! =P
What's so sad about Betty, is that I really feel Betty loved Don, was really in love with Don, and that's why she been almost crazed about the infidelity. Who wouldn't be if you were very much in love with your husband or significant other? I know I'd be going absolutely crazy. I actually thought she was going to get him on the couch with a knife or a frying pan, because it was almost scary watching Betty - like she was in an out-of-body experience.
Congratulations January Jones - if "A Night to Remember" doesn't snag a 2008 emmy nomination for her next year, I'll be dumbfounded.
@Nora: Who said "he's ready" and to whom? Was that at the dinner party?
Anyway, that clued me in that maybe Duck Phillips is a one season wonder.
Very satisfying episode, all around.
I did feel sorry for Joan regarding losing the opportunity to be the new Broadcast Operations scriptreader. Someone earlier on this talk said that Peggy went after her promotion - no she didn't. Freddy Rumsen opened that door for Peggy and threw the Belle Jolie assignment in her lap, and then Don did it again with the Relaxicisor. Both times because THEY spotted Peggy's natural talent, not because Peggy knew she had it prior and was trying to "advance" her ability. Once Peggy got a taste of it, of course, she wanted to go further.
Why can't that happen for Joan? I hope it does. The difference is I don't think it's ever occured to Joan to be "interested" or "mentally challenged" by work, but once she got a taste for it, yeah, she liked it alot. So, I hope she gets her shot, too.
I started watching this show, when I caught all the first season in a marathon and have looked forward to it, ever since. Tonight's show was the best yet. It really delved into the female characters feelings. I think this is the best show on TV, right now. So subtle and under stated, while incorporating many divergent themes. I am intrigued by the double standard, women had to live by, the men's callousness and chauvinism. The women are marginalized but are actually more intelligent and sensitive than the men. I would say more mature but that is not always the case. This underlines the theme of how society's values were hypocritcal at this time. Women are trying to make it a world run by men, who define life as being successful, affording material possession, thus status.
i agree male sexual ego[s] [normally] suck....if they don`t mature through puberty....gracefully.....temptation...and poor examples of idols being partly the reason...but come on....who has never looked at another great looking or acting person and not had the ever brief thought of [what if]...in a perfect world pain worries death would not ...change the adjustments we all make in this simple yet; [choice wise] sometimes complicated life....i have a pure heart towards loving 1 mate until....change,,, takes its course [hypothetically] S W M lol... YET THE POWERS THAT BE MANIPULATE US ALL TOWARDS COMPROMISE[S] that , we often would rather do without....mad men [to me].... is just another extention of the Garden of Eden... the curse firstly having the awareness of good and evil....then choosing right or wrong as a norm...
One last comment about Joan. With the possibility of Joan working in some variation of advertising (other than secretarial), don't you think Joan will give Peggy a run for her money? Joan knows how to use her "womanly assets" in business as we could all see in her interactions with the clients. She has thing or to she can show Peggy besides the kama sutra tricks in the boudoir.
Joan knows how she fits in and his willing to take on tasks to make things run smoothly. She does not compete on the level of the men,directly. That is why she shoots daggers with a single look, all the while maintaining decorum, when she is taken off the script reading assignment. She has management skills but is not given credit by any of the men.
Joan knows there is a 'glass ceiling' and does not want to try to break into management as a man. She would rather persue the dream of marriage to the right man, who is at that level.
As much as I love this show and feel like the characters are real, at the same time I never forget that there are some incredibly talented writers behind everything that happens. In other words, there is a reason for every storyline; it ain't like real life where stuff "just happens."
Case in point: Joan and her foray into Broadcast Operations
Even though you may or may not believe that Joan would want to work in this new position permanently, the writers have made it clear that she enjoys her new responsibilities and is disappointed when she is replaced without warning. This is obvious in her less-than-helpful instructions to the new guy and if you ask me, not really a matter for debate.
Now, we can speculate on what this is going to mean for Joan in the future and we can also speculate on why Harry cut her loose so quickly (Roger had no clue about Joan until he had already made up his mind to create the position permanently.) As for her immediate reaction, it was plain as day and I believe we are meant to assume that she would have been happy to get the position herself instead.
To me the Joan storyline fit cleverly into what I thought was one the main themes of Episode 8: How the men in women's lives have expectations about them and how they are often contrary to how these women really see themselves, and yet they often feel that they have to live up to the expectations anyway.
By the way, how come it took everyone so long to notice that mte's avatar is pornographic? Some of you actually responded to the post, what's up with that? When I first read the post, I thought, "What the hell does this have to do with Mad Men?" Then I got a closer look at the picture and thought, "Wow, that's inappropriate." So I went to check out his other posts and this guy posted the same thing on a previous thread, so can we get this loser banned from our forum?
@Jonathan: I think you can email Clayton Neuman@amctv.com to complain or some such address. Clayton is the moderator on the talk forum.
I couldn't tell what the picture was until I looked at the profile, and even then, I thought "is that what I think it is"? Jeesh, people have to be pretty desperate for attention if they have to post on a public forum in that manner! LOL
As for Joan, this experience in Broadcast Operations may have opened up a whole different line of thinking for her. I don't Joan's looking for management, but she had a chance to discover a type of work that really grabbed her attention and interest. I bet Harry Crane will be clamoring for her services in the not to distant future, after we got a look at the boob he permanently hired to fill the position. Besides, the doctor is about as exciting as a wet dishrag.
Several comments: talking about free love-NOT in '62. The "sixties" started in '67 in that context, not this early.
I LOVE the use of real products in this show (and real ad agency's names) makes it much more real. Who has not thought of the Kodak Carosel differently since Don's pitch for the account?
Joan...oh how to start..OF COURSE there was not a moment wasted in thinking of moving her into the new spot. She is JUST A GIRL! "She would not want the responsibility of a job like that" Let me tell you that the OWM's club is still alive and well in business (Old White Men). Now it is less evident, (like discrimination due to color, age etc) but oh yes it is still there for all these groups. Also did anyone notice that for once she did not wear her power icon-the pencil necklace?
In 1976 I was the first female hired into a well known company as one of their 16 outside sales representatives. When attending the National Sales Meeting we reps were given a welcoming gift. For the first 3 meetings I received #1) a necktie with company logo #2) a man's polo shirt with co logo #3) a shave kit! That was in 76-77. I just didn't fit the image, I was a girl. I finally made such a joke about it for the whole meeting that they did come up with gender-nutural gifts for future meetings.
I still have a copy of the LA Times HELP WANTED section from the mid 60's-first is MEN's job, then the next section is WOMEN's jobs. You can imagine the difference in the jobs and salary's offered between these two catagories. Don't know when that was changed.
And BETTY-was a golden child, she was the High School cheerleader, went to college 1 or 2 years, modeled some, met Don on his way up and grabbed the golden ring - pun intended. Why do u think valuim became the top-seller of those days. Betty had reached her True Womanhood status. Look how the wives talked about the new neighbor, from last season, who was a divorced woman. She was a threat to all of the "happily" married women in Conn. She would come after their men (i.e. their jobs) and she was to be pietied and shunned.
No one has commented about all these men talking about how and why women buy. They are correct on many levels but that was Peggy's foot in the door..she was an actual woman. And she was not playing the "find a husband game" and so was looked at differently when asked her opinion. But still she is on the outside when decisions are made at the bar after work.
Re: my comment that a main theme of Episode 8 was how men's expectations about women is often contrary etc. etc.
I guess I should have said that this is a main theme of Mad Men in general, but that "A Night to Remember" really brings home that theme. Specifically:
1) Father Gil assumes that Peggy will not only cheerfully help him with the "advertising" for the dance but that she will also respond the way he wants to his clumsy and heavyhanded attempts to draw out her confession.
2) Harry figures Joan would never want to be a permanent fixture in his TV dept and would prefer to return to her role as office manager/queen bee.
3) Joan's fiance assumed that she's getting married to him so she won't have to work anymore, because doesn't every woman really just want to sit in front of the TV all day watching soap operas and eating bon-bons?
And last but not least,
4) Don thinks that Betty will want to keep their marriage together and figures that his statement about loving their children will make her think twice about leaving him and that she will be worried about public appearance as well. He is stunned to realize that her feelings of hurt, betrayal, and humiliation are much stronger than her desire to maintain the facade of a perfect marriage. Of course, it didn't help that he lied right to her face when she gave him the perfect opportunity to own up to the affair. I think Betty feels that his dishonest denials are even worse than the cheating. Wouldn't many of us feel the same way?
This show just keeps getting better and better.
I finally felt sorry for Joan. She discovers that she enjoys reading the scripts, and has insightful points to make to the clients, has Crane agree with her, and then has to step aside so a man can get the job she didn't even realize that she wanted, until it was taken from her.
I think Joan is now starting to question if she really is that smart to let men treat her as an object to be fantasized about, and not as a woman who has an intelligent point of view, like Peggy.
As for Betty, seeing her in the same dress without make up at the breakfast table was an amazing scene.
The Utz commercial setting her off was genius. Just when she had reconciled herself to carrying on with the marriage to Don. Jimmy's commercial plays.
The Peggy storyline is coming to a full boil. I can see that Peggy is wrapped so tightly, that when she has the blow out, it will be a truly spectacular show.
I love how this show doesn't pull any punches, and doesn't blink.
The Father singing at the end was a perfect capper.
In the Utz commercial, it was the last line "I'm not crazy" and something else, but the wink from the mascot. Boy, do they know how to use the visuals on this show to hit it home!
I really can't imagine what Betty will do. I don't know what someone would do in her position with a spouse like that. It's very hard to understand WHY or WHAT it is about Don that she loved. Of course, I can't figure out what Peggy ever saw in Pete, so......gotta go back to that old standby, love is blind.
When the new day's a dawning, I bow my head in prayer.
I pray to the Lord, "Won't you lead me there?"
Won't you guide me safely to the Golden Stair?
Won't you let this body your burden share?
I pray to the Lord, "Won't you lead me please, lead me there?"
When the judgment comes to find the world in shame
When the trumpet blows won't you call my name?
When the thunder rolls and the heavens rain
When the sun turns black, never shine again
When the trumpet blows, won't you call me please, call my name!
1962 - Peter Paul & Mary as mentioned by several people above. Great choice for this episode. The times they are a changin' and the oppressed are waking up.
The show gets increasingly feminist. The final shots of those three great woman revving up for change is chilling. The singing Priest anticipates that thrust into the 60's, too. Betty has resisted seduction at least three times, and is really the perfect wife, not only stunning but with great strength of character. That is becoming evident now. She is every match for Don - so good luck to him. Reality check is an understatement. He needs her more than he can imagine.
Guys - watch out this show puts us on our heals.
I think Madman is out doing the Sopranos for complexity and overall brilliance. I feel like crying at the end of every episode. The best acting ensemble bar none.
Yikes, I've tried and I've tried but I finally have got to give up on this season of Mad Men. The pathos, the sadness, the let me blow my brains out depression. Screw it, I'm outta here. When the fun returns and Roger's riding a couple to twins and Don's giving amazing pitches to Kodak I'll return until then screw it.
To me, this episode is about punishment. Or maybe cruelty from people who care.
Betty doesn't KNOW about Don and Bobbi -- she thinks she knows, but she's making herself crazy because she can't find any evidence of it. Anyone who would believe what that vicious Barrett says needs her head examined. So she punishes Don on general principle, knowing that even if he's not guity of THIS, he's guilty. She says she "doesn't want it to be like this," but she needs to punish him, and it's not rational. I don't see this as particularly heroic on Betty's part... understandable, but certainly not a blow for women's liberation.
Roger gives Harry the OK to hire a junior because Joan's doing a good job, and just like overruling her when she fired Don's secretary (last week), he's punishing Joan for leaving him. I really dislike this petty assholery from Rog... he's better as a thoughtless frat boy.
As for Harry, what a dumbass. I hope that new kid hoses him royally, so he realizes what a gem he had in Joan. I suspect Joan will be back in the Television Department...
And alas... Poor Peggy and Fr. Gill. He really, really wants her to come clean and do penance about this illegitimate baby business. She most likely views this as persecution, but indeed, confession might be useful. He's going to keep after her on this. (Better that Peggy confess to Fr. Gill, rather than to Pete.)
is father gill one of the founders of the "guitar mass" movement? I remember in the early 70s some catholic churches started those to attract young people.
also, as a further demonstration of how men of all types were insensitive to women, father gill had some nerve bringing up a private matter like the need to confess and secret sin, while peggy is in her workplace. how dare he! he thought more of his agenda of getting her to spill the beans in the confeesional bout her adultery and pregnancy, that her need to maintain her office decorum. he didn't care that she could get so upset at the office, perhaps break down in front of co-workers, jeopardize her position and livelihood.
The point I was attempting to make, with regards to the occurences of a larger world than SC and its workers, is that these social facts will start to creep into the SC offices. The Youth Movement, with Mr. & Mr. Smith, is an example of that already making in roads. It's understood that SC is portrayed as a rather antiquated agency, so change for them probably wouldn't occur 'til the 1990s at the rate the place was going.
Although the stories of Joan, Peggy and Betty are compelling, for purely my own lack of attention span and tendency to get easliy bored, I'd love to see the lives of other female characters. The resistance to watch that by some viewers is blowing my mind, frankly!
Wow! This has to be the longest thread right after an episode so far!!
I'm still reeling from last night's show.
Thanks to the posters who confirmed my guess about the Peter, Paul and Mary song...it sounded like them.
I was very disappointed about Joan's replacement in the TV division also. But, as I said way up in the beginning of this thread, this isn't the end for her. Did you see the reaction from the ad guys she met with with Harry? I have a feeling unless Joan is put back in that spot, they'll pull out of SC.
Just as an aside, did anyone notice Joan didn't have her "pen" necklace on at all last night? Maybe that is a sign of what is to come for Joan.
After seeing her with her fiance, I don't think Joan will get married. There is no fire there. Resident MD in training wants her home, watching soaps, eating bon bons. I didn't like the kind of backhanded compliments he was giving her either.
I believe he said something about men wanting to look at her, and that she shouldn't be reading about the soap opera when she can be watching it on TV (like reading would hurt her pretty brain!)
I think Joan will chose career over marriage.
I definitely think Joan has been influenced by Peggy's promotion at SC. Now that she's getting a little older, she's starting to realize that being the office sex symbol is not enough. I really hope that she gets the TV job for which she is clearly qualified, but I agree with the above poster who said that she has to ASK FOR IT! I really don't think Harry ever assumed she would be interested in it. The doctor is trying to turn her into a Stepford wife -- it ain't gonna work.
Go, Betty!! I sat up at the edge of my seat when she confronted Don! Way to go, girl!
Duck has noticed Betty. "She's a peach of a girl." I wonder if something could transpire there. Duck is really missing having a family life. It was so touching to see him at Don's house -- "my date cancelled. I didn't want to come stag." I'm starting to really like Duck, now that we've seen more of him. He's really been chastened and humbled by his life's experiences. It's time for him to meet a good woman and start Chapter Two. He's where Don will be in 10 years -- divorced, kids indifferent to him, on the wagon, trying to rebuild his career.
Funniest line: Roger: "Crab, Duck. Duck, Crab." I laughed out loud! Classic Roger.
My prediction: Betty is pregnant and wants to have an abortion.
Father Gill is getting on my nerves! Give it a rest! Did priests really have the right to pry into the private lives of their parishoners against their will?
Is he just being nosy? Maybe he's romantically interested in Peggy, but she seems pretty blase about him (as a man).
@Gail: There's something very creepy about Fr. Gill! Why on Earth is he wanting Peggy to "confess" at her workplace? And why is he always in Peggy's grill to begin with?
I can't help but think that if Peggy and Joan had been born 30 years later and Mad Men were taking place now, the firm would be named Holloway-Olsen, not Sterling-Cooper!
I want to see what's cooking over at Carla's. I want to find out more about her family - is she married? Have kids? What does she really think of the Drapers? I think we'll see more of her as the series moves forward -- hope so.
A few observations - I thought this episode was great. After really disliking Joan, I actually felt sorry for her. After being so competent with her new duties, to have a guy come in and take it away from her just like that. Of course she will be on hand to help him if he needs it! Then we see that she has those bra straps digging into her shoulders. I think we saw the more human side of her. I wonder if she is pregnant though? She justs seems to get bigger and bigger. Betty breaking up that chair was really a bizarre scene! She looked like a zombie when she was doing it. The kids just looked at her like she was nuts. I felt sorry for Don when Betty told him not to come home that night. He must be a sexaholic to want his family so much but not be able to control himself. Father whats his name annoys me too. They can get rid of him quick as far as I am concerned. Leave Peggy alone, she's got enough on her mind!
Father Gill is close to compromising the seal of confession by trying to get Pegy to open up about something he knows through her sister's confession. He should be careful. But he has his own issues; he was glad to get out of his clerics at the end of the day and cut lose with the Peter Paul and Mary song on the guitar. There are hints he could be on a trajectory such that by the end of the 60s, he will either be an activist priest working in the inner city in street clothes and protesting the war a la the Berrigan Brothers or will leave the Church entirely; fully joining the counterculture.
In response to the questions about the song: It's by Peter, Paul and Mary, and I think the name of the album it's from is "Moving." I don't know the name of the specific song, but I have the album at home (I'm at work now) and can find out and post again. The album is from that time period. I used to sing that song in 1962 while ironing in the basement, so I know all the words and the parts.
It was Peter, Paul and Mary singing at the end I think. I also remember seeing and tasting Heinekin beer for the first time - probably 1967 though because I was too young to be tasting it earlier than that - lived in a border town so most beer i tasted (from parents parties) was Canadian.
And I agree, I can't stand any of the ads - they are so shabby next to Mad Men's perfection.
Are you kidding? Some priests LOVE sinners! that's their mission, to bring them back to the fold - I know I was considered somewhat iffy and there was one smarmy priest concerned with my salvation - ick -
I can't see Don going anywhere but down though I do hope he gets some help sobering up from Duck -
exactly gail. i don't think a traditional priest in the early 60s would have even gone to the workplace of a parishioner, must less sit down deskside and try to get her to admit she needs to confess secret sin and start taking communion again. it's too modern an approach, too forced and intrusive.
visan, the priest is a new breed and he wants to get up close and personal with his flock to show he's not up in an ivory tower looking down on them like he's god. he sees peggy as a missionary project - to retrieve a strayed lamb and restore her to the flock.
however, he's motivated by private information on peggy's private life, thanks to the malicious gossip (so-called "confession") of peggy's bitter, jealous sister. since when is it proper confession of one's own sins by "outing" someone else's???
oh yeah, enough with that ugly guy on the commercial - i don't care what she promises, she's gonna wanna smash that "human beatbox" after a few months of real life.
Having grown up in the Catholic church, priests consider it their right to be involved with the lives of their parishoners. I think the level of involvement depends on the size of the parish, as well.
The Catholic Church--and I think any religion, really--is either winning souls (assets) or losing them, and you can't do that if they're not in your control. I think Father Gil has ultimately good intentions. But, if it seemed Father Gil might be manipulating Peggy a little bit, it was all-good in God's eyes.
Why does Don have to have a sex addiction? Why is he not simply a man-whore? Again, he tried to control Betty with his sexuality, rubbing her thigh when she confronted him. He thought, maybe, if they took their problems to bed, the issue would be over.
Don's an adulterous bastard...and remains sexy while doing so!
"By ldraper; visan, I agree that gays should have equal rights and women shouldn't be beaten up, and all people have the right to vote. {Go Obama"
I don't believe that this site is a Republican/Democratic debate. It's about a show that we all seem to like. Once one person slips in their views, then all will follow and screw up this thread. Like this, McCain for President, Not Osama Bin Laden or Obama with Biden, whatever!
I think if Don were straight-up and honest about his sex life, he would be simply a man-whore.
The fact that he compartmentalizes his various dalliances, and even got mad that people knew about his sex life (how innocently Bobbie called him out as having a 'reputation'). To me that signifies that he has a problem.
GuySmiley: I never thought about it like that, compartmentalization.... I would love to see if some of Don's other lovers turn up. Just how many mistresses has this man had over the course of his marriage?
It took me until Season 2, Episode 8 to realize who she reminds me of --Edie Adams (widow of Ernie Kovacs). She was usually a blonde, but occasionally a redhead, and Joan looks just like her.
As for her not getting promoted, I've read a lot of these posts, and I don't think you get it: she wasn't passed over for a promotion. Roger, Harry, etc. never even thought about promoting her. It never entered their heads. The position was a MAN'S job. When Roger told Harry to hire someone, he said "pay HIM $150 a week." It was understood that, because the job paid that much, it was a job for a man. In those days the want ads had separate listings for men and women. It was common for secretaries to train their new bosses. In the '70s I was working at Ohio State University, and my department hired a man (four years younger than I) to oversee my job. He was hired because he was the son of someone influential, and they "found" (created) a job for him as a favor to his father. I had to train him AND continued to do the work I had been doing all along. He was just supposed to "supervise" me. His job was totally unnecessary. I believe that Joan will continue to read the scripts and do what needs to be done, and the new guy will get paid $150 per week and do nothing except get credit for Joan's work. Harry will be elevated in stature because he will have someone reporting to him.
I belive that the scene with Joan and the fiancee was put in to demonstrate that she has only two options: continue to work at a job for which she will never be promoted or rewarded or get married and be a servant to her doctor husband.
GuySmiley et al:
Don doesn't see himself as a man-whore and doesn't want a "reputation" for sex any more than a woman would. I think Bobbie might have (finally) gotten the idea after he left her tied up after she kept talking even when he told her to stop talking.
He sees himself as a man getting a little on the side and would never think of asking his Dearly Beloved Madonna for a bj or anything other than missionary position. He might have, very early in their relationship and she might have angrily come back with: "What kind of girl do you think I am? A whore?" Okay, never ask for that or anything out of the ordinary again would be his logic. So he can get his non-standard from other women.
That he's apparently very good at it is obvious. He also has only one affair at a time. Finish one before starting another. Definitely not jumping from bed to bed as Warren Beatty did in "Shampoo."
I can't see Bobbie linking up with Betty against Don. It's a non-winning combination for her and she only tries for winning combinations.
I don't think there was anything inappropriate about his questions to Peggy (except that they occurred at her office.) Peggy comes from a socioeconomic background which, in 1962, did not usually include psychotherapy. I think that the priest sees confession as an alternative to therapy (also common in those days). Because Peggy is not taking communion, he belives that she is having problems dealing with the aftermath of having a child out of wedlock and he is trying to help in the only way he knows how.
Continuity....why was Don on Betty's side of the bed when she came in from riding? Then in the next shot, on his side. C'mon guys. Is this up for analysis or just a mistake?
OMG....
This thread is over 260+ posts and next Sunday is a repeat (Three Sundays) because the Emmys are broadcast the same evening. (I hope Mad Men wins all 16!)
This thread will be extraordinarily long because the next premiere episode is broadcast September 29th!
Anyone wanta guess at how many posts on this thread by then?
My guess?...784!
I don't blame Don for cheating. I think Betty is cold as ice. In addition, I think she hates men. The way she relates or doesn't relate to her son shows how much she despises men. The way she treats that little boy can break your heart. Her daughter Sally seems emoti0onally detached also. If I were Don I'm not sure I'd ever come home.
I now hate Harry more than Pete. To think that was possible is quite stunning. Christina Hendrick's face when Harry tells her about the job is a scene I could not get out of my mind last night and it still hurts me today. I have rarely seen an actress display so much emotion in such a short period of time, It breaks your heart to see her. And then the scene later with her shoulder.
My lord she is the most beautiful women I have ever seen ever and she is an incredile actress.
And who ever made the comment about Joan putting on weight. She looks great. Please...it is so nice to see full figured women. Skin and bones has never and will never be attractive. At least to me.
I also hate the commercials during MM. I hate the hotels.com and chemistry.com. I have been waiting for Betty to come unglued as in the chair coming unglued and broken. I have admired JJ's performance in every episode and think she's brilliant in this role. Last season when she was on the dr's couch, was magically played out by her. I could watch it over and over. When she sits up to get a cig and then smooths her hair back down before lying back on the pillow said so much. Don would lie about the affairs because in those days you didn't have the internet or blogs, etc where Betty could make a few clicks and find out a lot of info. You didn't have a show called "Cheaters". LOL If Don was a sexoholic and didn't really love and care for Betty, then why didn't he spend the night with one of his many women friends (we haven't seen all of them) instead of staying at the office? I can't wait to see where he's living after this and how he explains it or maybe hides it. I wonder if he's thinking about when poor Harry was running around in his underwear when he was living at the office? Don is facing losing something he really loves and he's all alone. During office hours HE'S the man around there. My most haunting scene from this season is episode 1 when Don's waiting for Betty in the Savoy and sees her walking down the staircase and there's so much love and pride in his eyes and face and the music and double image of them on the screen was so brilliant that I get emotional every time I see it. Then, of course, after Betty sees her old roomate and Don tells her she's a call girl and Betty doesn't believe him and he says, what do you think, I'm stupid. Of course, he's really saying, you're stupid to not know that, Betty. Took the joy right out of the scene. Then when they're in bed and Don is having trouble staying active, Betty says something like, you just need to tell me what do to. Betty has a real man who turns on women all over Manhattan, but can't satisfy his own wife. Don needs to be naughty with Betty and teach her some things. I thought it was sad that Betty didn't tell Don that she knew about Bobbie until she needed to say something to defend herself against his argument about the dinner party. She didn't have the guts to confront him face to face, but only blurted it out from frustration because Don didn't understand how hurt she was during the dinner party. As far as Joan being pregnant and someone seeing the actress on a talk show recently, the show was probably taped months ago so she wouldn't be "as pregnant" now was when the show was taped. She can't have a breast reduction on the show because her real boobs are that size and that would difficult to hide those things. If she is pregnant and tries to hide it, Peggy will remember those days of gaining weight and she will know Joan's pregnant. Although Peggy didn't know at the time she was pregnant. Joan probably won't have an abortion because it would be interesting to see who the father is. Sorry for so many thoughts in one post, but I don't post very often. I read every post and these posts are invaluable to understanding this show. The show wouldn't mean as much if it weren't for brilliant people posting your thoughts. Thank you.
I can't wait 'till Sunday!!! Where will Don go? He has so many women he could shack up with!
I am so shocked at the fact that Don won't admit to cheating. Betty totally blew this episode out of the water! January Jones' acting is amazing! I didn't know Betty had it in her! Team Betty all the way! I hate Don more and more...I wonder how he'll end up. Maybe he'll turn to drugs? That would be a good twist for next season...
Did anyone notice the can of PRIDE on the dining room table when Betty was dusting? As she was breaking and picking up the chair, I couldn't help but think that her "pride" was broken and she was so sadly picking up the pieces of it as she picked up the broken chair pieces.
I think this has been my favorite episode so far in season 2. Everything was seamless. All the plot lines integrated so well and the flow of the entire episode was amazing. FINALLY January Jones showed some brilliant work. Granted, she hasn't really been given the opportunity in the past, so it's not her fault, but I was so proud of her! She really brought it this episode. I hope this is a sign of new things for Betty and Don. I hope she can stick to her guns! John Hamm also did some new things with Don. The scene late at night when he was sleeping on the couch and Betty comes to talk to him, he showed more true emotion than I think I've ever seen Don show. He knows he's in trouble and I think we saw the beginnings of panic. I love to see Don uncomfortable. I hope Joan doesn't marry that guy. She's too independent and strong to be married to some man who wants her to be the "dutiful housewife." I love the episodes where we mostly get to see things from the women's perspectives. It's so insightful and clever and you really feel the struggle that they are going through. Yay for Betty! Take a stand girl and stay strong! I just can't say enough about this episode!
The scene with Peggy and Father Gill made me think I have been wrong about her baby. She is not going to Communion, which Catholics are not allowed to do if they have a mortal sin on their souls. So I'm wondering if Peggy actually harmed her baby in some way, maybe even killed it. Perhaps she took it home after giving birth and was hospitalized because she kllled it -- accidentally, I'm sure, but she blames herself and thinks her lack of maternal instinct caused the death. (Maybe that's the dead child she was telling Bobbi about.)
She definitely has something to hide from Father Gill, and she knows he knows she had a baby so it's not just that she doesn't want to talk about having gotten pregnant. And she looks far too stricken in that last scene in the bathtub, for it to be that she had a baby and gave ti wawy.
I still like me some Don Draper! He can kick an old man down a flight of stairs and Don will still be fabulastic to me! Don, divorced or not, will rise again! Viva Don the Ho!
Speaking of Viva and commercials, I often watch MM on On Demand. EVERY single episode has an intermission with the SAME dumb Viagra commercial VIVA, VIVA.... VIAGRAAAA!!!! I'm sick of looking at the guy in his dusty blue high school tuxedo (as if guys actually kept their rented tuxedos). Thank goodness for fast forward.
Only one thing didn't ring true to me - Don spending the night at Sterling Cooper. Don's a rich man and one of the partners, I think he could have afforded going to a hotel easily, new Caddy or not. Maybe the only reason he didn't, is that he wanted Betty to be able to reach him at the office. But would she have been able to after hours? Most businesses of the era, I thought (because I worked for one), had telephone answering services after hours, didn't they?
To the guys out there: How do you like watching Viagra commercials? Does it make you squirmy, especially if you're watching with a woman? I would think maybe it would be like a woman watching a commercial for a products for feminine itching or odor. Some things don't have to be on TV 24/7. Thoughts?
Jamm: That was some Weiner and Co. dramatic license, Don's night at SC! The show's great but still has to add OTT elements to highlight a situation or just for drama....It seemed weird to me, too, that Don wouldn't go to a motel for a night
Jonathan: Not so fast. We saw the baby, but we also saw a very pregnant Anita (Peg's sister) remember?? Most of us think that baby is Anita's. But I also think the idea of her killing the baby is a bit of a shark jump.
Laurie, I don't know if you're into golf at all but the entire financial basis of The Golf Channel depends upon the male sex organ. We have non-stop commercials for Viagra, Cialis (personal favorite) and Lavetra to get it up. I'm still hoping for that four hour erection they keep promising me which, if I get it, I'm going to do my honest best to bang my girlfriend to death or at least make her walk funny for a week.
If it's not to get it up it's to help me piss. In between ED commercials we've got the Avadart and Flomax to work on my prostrate issues.
Under trickle down economics (appropriately enough since we're discussing an impaired flow of urine) our entire economy has morphed from manufacturing to the creation and marketing of penis enhancement products. As the Chinese would say: a great leap forward!
In response to Stephanie Jo's comment about Sterling asking Harry if he is "on crack", the actual line is "Do you smoke, Crane?". Crane is Harry's last name. There was never any reference to crack.
@Laurie: I'm a woman and I abhor those assy Viagra commercials! That guy, in that too tight, powder blue suit chaps my ass! he looks corny as hell!
To be honest, the one thing that's always nagged me was Peggy's pregnancy storyline. It just seemed so "Jerry Springer!" Ah, to each their own! But it seems so beneath the writing of Mad Men! *snaps fingers* Hated it!!
I think Don stayed at the office, is because he truly does care for Betty. I think he denied the affair or affairs was because he was saving face, and possibly after the Bobbie incident, and the Jimmy incident wanted to work things out and try and change. I think when Betty threw up in the car, he probably thought she was just drunk. We all think Betty is naive, I think Don is just as naive. Sure like somebody said he may have stayed at the office so that if Betty changed her mind she could reach him there, but I dont think so. Betty told him, I cant even look at you, dont come home. I think that was reason enough that she wasnt going to call asking him back.
Think what you like, but you'll be disappointed when it ain't so. You guys have seen too many other shows with ridiculous and inexplicable plot twists that insult the viewers' intelligence and contradict everything previously seen à la Bobby Ewing. This ain't Dallas, folks.
As far as Don not going to a hotel: Betty called Don at work to tell him not to come home. Even the great Don Draper is capable of being shocked to the point of inaction. He may also feel at this point that he has lost everything and that his job is all he has left, so he feels safe right there at SC.
I thought, especially because Don is a partner, that he wouldn't want to spend the night at Sterling Cooper. But, who's to say that he did? We gather that Don is "stunned" that Betty tossed him to the curb, and after a couple of hours he might have moved on to a hotel. I don't think Don would want any gossip getting out about his marital troubles.
Yes even having sex outside of marriage was a gravely shameful thing for a Catholic girl then - and having a baby out of wedlock - that would emotionally devastate many women then as now - socially and spiritually - fageddaboudit! So she didn't necessarily kill that baby - and these writers are too clever to have to resort too often to shock value - they are good storytellers and could hook us without a murder - it was very clever taht the joan clip before ep 8 said "someone dead isn't dead" - and it turned out to be a soap opera plot line. This is no soap! (It's a wonder any of us survived being Catholic during pre-Vatican times!)
If Don could ever get over his "fear" of telling the truth and what the consequences would be, he might have a chance.
I mention on another discussion that there are two reactions to fear: fight or flight.
Only once did Don ever stay and "fight" and that was in the Pete blackmail accusation. I thought he was going to pass out when Pete told Cooper his "real name". But, Don survived it, so why not try it with Betty?
Man, Don denied the affair with Bobbie to save his own ass, or so he thought! It wasn't out of nobility to Betty or his kids or marriage! I'll say this, so far, Betty only has suspicions. Dapper Don covered his ass pretty good! He's slick!
Don has stayed overnight at SC before. For example, the night he found Harry wandering around in his BVDs. To him, Betty's being irrational and will come to her senses when she thinks it through. Getting a hotel room, even for the night, to him would mean making a real change in his life.
Re: Harry not considering Joan
Joan is engaged. At her age, within a year she'd be expected to be pregnant. Either way, she'd be expected to leave her office job for the full time job of being a doctor's wife and/or soon-to-be mother. That was the logic in those days.
Likewise, reading the scripts was considered a duty tacked onto her office manager duties. Harry might have been satisfied with her work but he probably couldn't see her working as his subordinate, no matter how good she was. (Sorry, Joan.) She's got too much moxie for him, to put it mildly. Not to mention all the subtle insinuations his still-pregnant wife might give him if she knew Joan was working for him. Not as many as if Hildy was under him (again! :-)) but...
Harry reports to Roger. If he'd been reporting to Don, things might have been different. Don's known to promote women into the "creative" ranks but not Roger who might also have "issues" with Joan.
First time commenting...have loved this show from the beginning...so glad to find out that I'm not crazy for being hooked on it! January Jones is the reincarnation of my mother in the sixties, be that good or bad, and she's doing a bang-up job
Good morning.
So many posts to read. I read half already, I will come back to read more later. So forgive me if this has been stated already.
Did anyone see that Don was dropped off in front of apartment bldg at the end of the show from the taxi?
Let's decide whose apt that is? Is it Midge's? Peggy's?
Poor Betts. (My dad used to call me "Betts". No one else ever used that nickname for me). But now we see her truth is making her stronger. She accused Don, and wouldn't have any excuses from him. She looked for actual evidence in his belongings, but Don is so compartmentalized he left nothing behind for her to find. Still, she doesn't doubt what she knows. I would have wimped out for another bout of infidelities, Betts didn't.
Don and Peggy aren't fessing up. Joan realized that she did really want to have a more important job. The pain of her "femininity" is cutting into her. Her true hopes are now apparent. She won't quit her job, even with her new husband. This will turn out to be a problem.
As far as her body goes, I see padding under her clothing that doesn't quit look real. (sorry MM). Besides, Christina's legs are much thinner than they should be for that hourglass figure.
Father Gill, now seems like he wants Brownie Points with his temporary parrish. He hires Peggy, but then won't go to bat for her during her presentation. He then claims he is only the liason (sorry, can't spell). She really dug into him. YEAH!
I was surprised that Don didn't go home anyway. Normally he rules the roost, so why should it change now?
I've always thought Father Gill had a thing for Peggy, he thinks she puts out now and is an easy mark. I don't trust him at all.
Has any of you thought that Duck and Betty might be a future item, I just got an inkling last night in the way he complimented her excellent homemaking style.
I've been following this show and as always, have to express my opinion: THIS SHOW IS AMAZING. It gets better and better. A few thoughts. Betty confronting Don last night was incredible. LOVED IT! I adore Don but that was needed and it was played out perfectly. Also, a few episodes back, Three Sundays, I think, this show became even more amazing to me when Don visited Peggy in the hospital. I thought to myself, 'Perfect casting on the part of Jon Hamm and his character just made me love him even more'. Wonderful work, week after week. Huge fan!
I was surprised that Don didn't go home anyway. Normally he rules the roost, so why should it change now?
I've always thought Father Gill had a thing for Peggy, he thinks she puts out now and is an easy mark. I don't trust him at all.
Has any of you thought that Duck and Betty might be a future item, I just got an inkling last night in the way he complimented her excellent homemaking style.
All three story lines are confrontations about the paths three characters are on.
Don is confronted by Betty: Do you hate me? Why would you humiliate me like this? Did you want to be a good married man at all?
Peggy is confronted by Fr. Gill:Why won't you confess your sin? Why won't you accept god's grace? Don't you want to be a good catholic girl and a part of this community?
Joan is confronted by her Dr. Fiancee: Shouldn't you be watching those shows instead of reading their scripts? Don't you want to buy the house in Glen Cove, get pregnant and eat bon bons?
Don, Peggy and Joan are united one answer:
"I'm not sure. I do know my explanation is one your world view can't handle -- so I can't explain this to you."
So Don lies, Peggy is respectfully dismissive, Joan laughs it off ("It's a hoot.".)
Don, Peggy and Joan are confronted by moral archetypes in Betty, Fr. Gill and Dr. Fiancee.
These three, the good hostess, the catholic priest and the chauvinist husband live in a world of unassailable belief about the way the world works.
And why not? They are at the zenith of their power in modern american culture.
In a decade, their views, held by the vast majority in 1962 will be in shocking decline.
And their decline will be due in great part to people like Don (the man in the grey flannel suit) Peggy (the good girl) and Joan (the sexpot) who feel trapped in the roles that society told them were the path to fulfillment and happiness.
Don knows his "fairy tale" life isn't the answer. Peggy knows her choices were limited and in many ways unfair. And Joan has an inkling, for the first time perhaps, that the natural order she has played a key role in maintaining may not be so great afterall.
Peggy, Fr. Gill and Dr. Fiancee all carry out their roles with decency and expected concern. Something is wrong with Don, Peggy and now Joan, and they just want to get to the bottom of it.
Heck Betty and Fr. Gill go the extra mile. Betty buys sexy lingerie and Fr. Gill has his guitar and his more colloquial sermons.
The problem is that at least Don and Peggy don't feel they deserve punishment and Joan may be beginning to realize that she doesn't want to end up as little more than a curvaceous man-mommy.
The conventional moral answer here would be tell the truth and be forgiven.
Really?
Imagine Don's, Peggy's and Joan's answers and ask if they can be "forgiven"?
Don: "Betty, my life is a lie. I came from nothing, wiped the little I was away in a moment of terror and then chose you as part of a plan to re-create myself in the image I believed would make me happy. And it doesn't. Still there is much I love about this life. But as a man who life has offered no other moral code beyond "survive" I do not want to throw away the little bit of stable identity I have. You ask if I love you? I loved and I still love the idea of you."
Betty: The "idea" of me? What is that supposed to mean?
Peggy: "Father, I naively thought taking one birth control pill would protect me from getting pregnant during intercourse. Because I have a yearning for something more than what my sister settled for I came to work in Manhattan. As part of that yearning I had a brief infatuation for a needy, also unhappy ivy-league educated nerd who fancied himself a writer. And he got me pregnant. I saw through him over time and convinced myself that my weight gain was do to over-eating. When I gave birth I was emotionally destroyed. But I don't want my sister's life I want the life I think might be possible for me beyond brooklyn. I'm angry over this world god and man has constructed that has made it so hard for me to be happy. One that left me sexually naive and emotionally damaged as a result. Not taking communion isn't a sign of my shame father, it's a sign of my anger."
Fr. Gill: "I play the mandolin and all, but did you say you attempted to use birth control?"
Joan: Yes, of course you love my looks. And of course my role is serve you and to serve the men of Sterling Cooper. But maybe, just maybe I'm starting to feel the price of being valued for my body alone. My big bust has been my greatest asset. Now the bra straps are digging into my shoulders literally and figuratively and for the first time, I'm acknowledging the irritation."
Dr. Fiancee: "Hun, where's my water?"
In this still early 60's world, Don, Peggy and Joan are not going to allow themselves to get divorced, leave the church or dump a doctor husband.
Soon they'll be carried away from these things by the tide of change but not yet. Not in 1962.
Don and Peggy for now at least, are trying to forge a "separate peace" by still living in society, but living in it on terms they can somewhat stand through duplicity. Joan it seems to has begun to do this by remaining at work and making excuses about why she's still there.
Wow what an episode. Several story arcs advancing at the same time.
The obvious place to start is with Don and Betty. In our first glimpse of her, astride her horse, she reminded me of Tippy Hedron in "Marny". It would not surprise me if some of the camera angles were lifted from the movie. Her attire is very similar if not identical. "Marny" is about a repressed upper middle class woman who has a problem dealing with men on an emotional and physical level. She is also a kleptomaniac. Late in the movie we discover that her problems come from the shame she feels because her mother was a prostitute. Interesting twist in MM, but the theme is the same.
Very little time has elapsed since Jimmy's speeches in EP7 and last night's episode. Don thinks all is relative calm, yet Betty is seething under the surface. After she comes back from her ride and enters her bedroom, she chastises Don regarding the completion of his assigned "To Do" list. Near the end of this scene, Don asks her to sit down next to him. When she does, she is as rigid and proper as a secretary and you can see from her body language that she does not want Don to even touch her. Flash forward and we see Betty taking out some frustration on the dining room chair. She is so matter of fact about it, while we and her children are shocked by her actions. Flash forward again, we get our final payoff. First she feels humiliated by Don at a dinner party that she worked so hard to execute, then treated trivially when she finally confronts Don after the party. Telling him that she knows about Bobbie Barrett at least acknowledged the elephant in the room. Don consistently denies anything and all Betty really is left with are her suspicions and a few oblique comments from Jimmy Barrett. She riffles through Don's suits and effects to find some evidence for her argument. Finding nothing, Betty begins to question her own sanity and is ready to negotiate with Don. When she and Don finally talk, Betty looks drained and beaten. The next day she sees the Utz commercial and realizes that she was correct all along. The commercial made her realize that the affair had been going on for quite some time. It was thrown in her face by Don, who put her on display for the Barrett's pleasure (Don- "I want you to look shiny and pretty"). She was used and made foolish- all the signs were there and she finally sees them. Next she tells Don to stay away from the house. This episode belonged to Betty. Ms. Jones has been given something to demonstrate that she can act- she did a wonderful job. You could see the changes in demeanor and emotion as her perspective changed over the course of the episode. She was believable as a wife going through a breakdown. Harrowing Stuff.
For Don's part everything is still going well. More accounts are coming in, clients are happy, Duck, Roger and he are all getting along well. They are even collaborating on either recruiting Crab Colson or trying to do business with his company. All is well on the surface. Yet we know that Don is a perceptive man, so we know that he is aware of Betty's repressed rage. His approach to life is to act they way you want things to be, so if he acts like nothing is wrong, everything will eventually work out. He is still trying to bluff his way through, but when Betty confronts him, we can see that he is scared underneath his denials. When he and Betty finally talk rationally, there is real terror in his eyes. He can see it all slipping away- everything he has worked to construct. Later when Betty tells him not to come home, he has no place to go to so he seeks refuge in the office. In the past, when reality intruded on his carefully constructed exterior, he tried to flee, but where will he go this time ? His final scene in the break room is telling. Notice his body language- instead of the polished business executive, sitting in an upholstered chair, with legs crossed, he is slumped over in a hard seat, with legs splayed, drinking a beer, just like a factory worker or truck driver, or just like what Dick Whitman would be in life. And he can see it all as plain as day.
Peggy and Father Gil is an interesting dynamic. She clearly likes him but can't figure out the basis for his interest in her. For his part, he is a privileged person in their community. Remember that this was still a time when the Priesthood was a noble profession. Sometimes with privilege comes a sense of entitlement- he can insert himself into the lives of his parishioners and expect them to unburden themselves to him. Peggy has set boundaries which he has clearly not encountered before. Peggy will help sell the CYO dance, but will not allow Father Gil to pry into her private life. But he has the final word when he essentially asks her why she feels unworthy of Gods love. Her response is palpable and she is thankfully saved by the bell (Xerox machine). She is conflicted about her background and her feelings for Father Gil. His final scene as a folksinger should give us a glimpse into his future- he will be one of the clergy who will take part in the social protests coming later in the decade.
Regarding Joan ever possibly moving out of the secretarial pool into other areas of advertising - Joan might have a problem there. Joan has kind of bullied those AE's and the other men for years in the office, and hasn't exactly been "easy" to get along with at times. No one crosses Joan. Can you imagine Joan running over the top of Harry once she got that Broadcast Operations job? I could. Joan could be both a help and a hindrance. If anyone is going to "give" her the job, it will be coming from the clients who already met her; they liked her "take" on some of the daytime shows. They could be an influence on the job possibility for Joan, not anyone at Sterling Cooper. Interesting to see if it comes to pass.
Did anyone notice that when Betty said to Don "I don't know what to do" that was the same thing that Pete said to Don after his father died? It's funny these characters thinking that Don would have the answer for them!
I am glad to find I am not alone in being disgusted by some of the commercial breaks during MM. The one that is really annoying is the nerdy human "beat box" guy. At least when you re-watch MM On Demand you are spared the constant breaks for commercials.(Although I agree w/ another poster who is bored with the limp dick commercial for Viagra.)
After this episode I think things finally coming to a head between Don and Betty was long overdue. She's been percolating for some time now and her perceived humiliation at the dinner party was just the catalyst to cause her to explode.
Ms. Jones did a superb acting job,although I never doubted her abilities...all the actors here are top notch and Emmy worthy.
I can't see this crisis becoming resolved before the end of the season. Betty is pissed off and you know that saying about a woman scorned......Maybe Don will go live in a nice hotel like Duck,but no one will know since he's so secret. The only plus to Don being locked out of the house is he could have all the cheap and dirty sex he wants with high class call girls.
It was sad to see Joan get screwed over,but not surprising.My thoughts were "better get used to it" since the Old Boys Club won't be called out for awhile anyway. That type of unfairness was standard procedure in those days perhaps. Doing a great job and having some clueless knucklehead get the credit and the better pay.I'd be fighting mad,but that hurt look on Joan's face said it all didn't it?
I'm over the snoopy priest trying to pester Peggy into confessing her sins and redeeming herself. I can't see a priest calling on a parishioner at the work place,but they did make "house calls".We had one come over to "intervene" at our house in the mid-60's. It was invasive then,but accepted since "therapy" and counseling services were not the norm like they are now.
I don't know how all of the other MM fans feel,but I think I am going to really go into withdrawal when the season comes to a close. Where will we get our Mad Men fix on when it goes into it's hiatus. I hate to think we will all be miserable and pining away till Season 3 in July 09!!!!!
Jonathan,
What a fantastic line: ..."shocked to the point of inaction."
I agree. Don doesn't have a clue what to do next, so he stays where he feels safe, to sort things out.
Man I hope this shows gets some Emmys!
Fr. Gill was at SC to pick up copies of the dance flyer.
Don will get Jimmy Barrett to tell Betty he was making it up because he had a crush on her, envies Don and was drunkenly jealous. And Don will be welcomed home.
Don creates modern morality for a living. He's chosen to live outside good and evil. He believes he was right to sleep with Bobbi for professional and personal reasons. And he is not going to become Duck 2.
He's going to sit there in the SC kitchen with his Heineken and plan how he'll squeeze Jimmy to do what he needs to return to his home on HIS terms. No Carlton-like bowing and scraping.
Betty will give in. Like her predecessor on the Soprano's Carmela, she has too much invested in the lie to sell off now. And as we discussed last week at great length, she has a low opinion of Jimmy to begin with because of his background. So like the Utz exec and his wife, she's going to believe him and have her faith restored, for now, in the rightness of her world.
I did notice Joan's gold pencil missing this epi. Also, her clothes were a bit more reserved. And we saw her in pants!
She didn't serve her boyfriend dinner, nor set the table nor remember his water. As a secretary, she would have attended to all of those things.
I can see a change in her.
I also remember that she told Peggy that she doesn't know "those circles"(sic) last epi. Peggy wanted to know if Joan knew about the meeting she wasn't being included on.
So I believe that Joan doesn't know how to get into a new job at SC.
I could have sworn that Fr. Gill was going to pluck out a slow folk tune when he picked up his guitar. What a surprise!
Oh, and the confrontation that we see Peggy have with someone in the next epi could really be her yelling at her sister.
Forgive me if this is redundant and please direct me to whomever commented on this thread, but I am fascinated by the competence of the women in this episode. I did not see Betty's destruction of the chair as anger, but as a means to make it small enough to put in the trash. I have done so with things in my own household. I love her simple comprehension of the tasks she set for Don. Peggy is supremely competent. Joan learns and masters her new responsibility with ease. Yet all will be thwarted. I think they are all going to realize their incredible power and revolutionize the sixties. That is the newness realized in the tub, and kitchen, sans makeup.
And by the way, good for Don regarding betty. He instinctively understands she bows to power and crushes the weak. Look how she fell for don providing the fur coat after the first met and how she treats poor little bobby.
To go home to that house other than victorious is to be doomed to her crushing, claustrophobic control. Don will not do that. He will figure out how to return at strength.
We ourselves might be sold a pitch here that isn't necessarily true. Are all men of this time egotistical, macho, sexist and competitive? Are all women of this time repressed, unhappy ,talented and overlooked?
Come on now people....where are the well adjusted men and women who loved what they did and were truly happy with life. Where are all the the men and women who prospered and contributed to hope and a new future. Where is the sense that the nation was at it's core good and could do great things.
The most frustrating perplexing thrust of the media and culture to just constantly wishing to destroy and throw out all that previous generations had worked so hard at building and preserving. And then on top of that to make thoes that tear down society into saints and heros. It's a product that this show is starting to sell and I am not going to buy it.
What I love so much about this time is its great sense of optomism and hope in the future. Or its commitment to values such as honesty, dedication , loyality or just decency and moral courage. Where is that represented? You can certainly see it in the ads of the time. However were made to think that......no .... .."this was all just a fake and phoney facade for all that was seathing underneath". That the generation before the revolutionary sixties was just ignorant, repressed and materialistic. Well I just don't buy that!
I feel like a small David trying to hurl a stone at the giant of cultural rebelion. There was so much that was good before the sixties that is overlooked. And it was out of this goodness that we have a foundation for what is good today.
So when you watch a show like this ...which has so much potential to explore this era in a balanced fashion....don't you feel just a little ripped off and manipulated when they go into the sterotypical "repressed fifties" and "revolutionary sixties."
There was no suppressed rage at the time. Watch it again. She was taking care of an annoying problem: rickety chair. She is learning she can handle what life brings. She is learning her own strength and competence.
The issues with the scripts- where Harry missed that the show had a communist agitator and in them and then the Maytag commercial came on describing the great agitator for the washing machine. When Betty is watching a television show, the young boy in the show and his dad are talking and he the boy, makes mention that his girl was with some other guy, and then it broke to Jimmy Barrett and the UTZ commercial. I'm trying to establish how Betty made up her mind about Dons cheating when she saw the UTZ commercial with Jimmy. What did it tell her or what peice of evidence did it reveal that investigating and rummaging throughout the entire house did not?
Father Gill is one of the starters of the folk mass that became popular around that time in the Catholic church as an alternative to regular mass. Usually a cool open minded young Priest gave the mass. Not sure about his intentions with Peggy.
Joan couldn't understand how Peggy was playing it at the office. She couldn't understand why she would want to join in with a bunch of miserable men and become a copywriter, and not just try and find a husband and kick it in the suburbs. I think she is realizing what she thought she wanted is not for her, and was upset that she didnt get the script reading job. I think and hope for the show she chooses career over marriage.
I agree the commercials during MM are truly bad. But the Viagra commercials make sense. Viagra is for men who have trouble getting it up to screw their wives which correlates with Don's erectile issue with only Betty. Those issues disappear when he is with other women.
Artist: Peter, Paul & Mary
Album: Peter, Paul And Mary
Song: Early In The Morning
Well early in the morning, about the break of day,
I ask the Lord, "Help me find the way!"
Help me find the way to the promised land
This lonely body needs a helping hand
I ask the Lord to help me please find the way.
When the new day's a dawning, I bow my head in prayer.
I pray to the Lord, "Won't you lead me there?"
Won't you guide me safely to the Golden Stair?
Won't you let this body your burden share?
I pray to the Lord, "Won't you lead me please, lead me there?"
When the judgment comes to find the world in shame
When the trumpet blows won't you call my name?
When the thunder rolls and the heavens rain
When the sun turns black, never shine again
When the trumpet blows, won't you call me please, call my name!
The 1950s were the "good ol' days" for rich, heterosexual healthy white males! For the poor, people of color, women, disabled and gays that time was sure as hell the "bad ol' days!"
I don't think the writers are saying EVERYBODY was like this in the early 60's. We're talking about a very high strung profession. I had a cousin who was married to an ad man at the time and she said all the cliches about the 3-martini lunch and ulcer-producing stress and BS that came with it were true.
Dalva... wow, great answer to my question. I can see it all so clearly now. I also noticed the straps of Betty's gown in that scene — all of the TENSION, pressing against her upper arms. Great little detail that I think must have been intentional.
Don Draper wasn’t lying when he said nothing happened with Bobbi because he left her tied up. He does have this ability to compartmentalize things and never mind that Bobbi did snag him once. Betty’s pride will get the best of her. This has been simmering since Jimmy tried to use the Bobbi/Don affair to work something of his own with the Belle of the Hudson River. The horseback-riding scene Saturday morning, and the angry chair scene point to Betty’s underlying angst that was planted by jackhole Jimmy. The Heineken incident at the dinner table was just a tipping point for her to get to her real issue with Don. Betty had better get a grip. The other women at the table are more advanced and in the same position as her.
I predict that Crane will bomb with his new helper and Mitch will be complaining about revenues being down and his head will eventually roll. He is such a dork. Joan fell on the barbwire (taking care of the Maytag and script reading issues) and Crane ran right over her.
Have you noticed Joan has a way of finding things out that go on in the office and it sure seemed obvious that her relationship with Roger changed when he had the heart attack with the *twin*
Peggy’s priest is out of line using a confessional against her and I hope she doesn’t go to church next Sunday.
Let's be revisionist:
"Cheat on you, Betts? Sure, all the time, starting with while we were in that short engagement before we got married. Who do you think was Juanita's first john? Only taken a few breaks since then. But I've been faithful to you in my own way, screwing only one other woman at a time."
"Any further questions?"
People wonder why Don didn't tell the truth when asked. Responding truthfully would be a real loser of an idea and wouldn't have helped the situation a darn bit. Just pushed Betty to ask for an immediate divorce which is not what Don wants.
Since Betty didn't get any answers from Don or from snooping through his stuff, do you think she will ask Bobbie herself? That would be an interesting conversation. I would love to see it. Do you think is she did, Bobbie would deny it or would she admit every sordid detail and throw it in Betty's face?
I kind of looked at the chair destruction as starting out with pent up frustration and anger, but being symbolic of the "foundation" or "support" of Don and Betty's marriage being rickety and unsound, so she was "smashing it to bits".
How will Betty feel when her menu is put in women's magazines??? She will feel even more made fun of. The fact is that Don doesn't see her as anything more that the perfect wife. He doesn't want to believe that she feels. He saw it first hand now and doesn't know how to deal with it. He could deal with it before because he didn't have to go home to it....he could just up and leave (Rachel, Midge, Bobbie) but now he must deal w/ the reality of what he's done face to face. He deals w/ it the best he knows how...he lies.
Notice how the women's hair is getting smaller and somewhat softer? Joan towering inferno is lower and more angled off the crown. Peggy's pony is shorter and Betty's flip is less rigid.
Harry Crane never seemed more competent and will make the television department a big success.
Peggy does not receive communion because she cannot confess her sin. That was different from today when Catholics believe they can give themselves absolution by an act of contrition. Fr. Gill is reminiscent of the young priests of that era who anguished over their vows and eventually left the Church. Both he and Peggy are the young generation living through the cultural changes that gave way to Vatican II.
Joan, like Peggy, is experiencing the gradual change of the role of women in the workplace. Though later than Peggy, Joan is is starting to realize her business acumen. Both characters are primed to be future women libbers.
Betty also is absorbing the changing times and becoming bored in the role of a Stepford suburban wife. Her reaction to Don's philandering is timeless, but she has an overall distaste with her life, and what it means.
Don is just a Dude.
Ofcourse Joan is pregnant! Her fiance gave it away when he said that she should be eating bonbons for her "cravings." And it was foreshadowed by Joan herself when she told Roger that she knew the date that he would propose (because she would turn up pregnant then). I knew immediately that this woman would be pregnant in connection with her doctor boyfriend.
Also, they are showing how wide she is becoming for a reason. She and Peggy are in the same predicament in more ways than one and will soon become allies, even though Joan once chided her on being foolish. Now it's Joan who wants to work with the guys, get recognized for it (remember how she hated on Peggy and told her to not forget where she came from) and she's also having a baby!
And their decline will be due in great part to people like Don (the man in the grey flannel suit) Peggy (the good girl) and Joan (the sexpot) who feel trapped in the roles that society told them were the path to fulfillment and happiness.
I see another kind of decline in the Sixties to come:
Don (grey flannel suit) = too Establishmentarian (
"dont trust anybody over 30", I believe was the expression)
Peggy (the good girl) = upcoming Sexual Revolution
Joan (the sexpot) = being married by age X and sprouting off 2.7 kids and living behind the white picket fence will no longer be a requisite for women.
I will ruin him,....comes to mind. Don's drinking that Heineken planning his revenge I'm sure. I doubt very seriously he's going to mend his ways. And enough of the go Betty stuff for the Oprah crowd. Lets see, Tony Soprano and Don Draper, are great husbands that don't cheat on their wives, and don't lie and are great family men. They go to work and come home, play with the kids and smoke a pipe. What interesting characters they would be.... I don't want to watch Father Knows Best. Both characters go to work in a world based on lies and deception. Advertising is predicated on lies, no small wonder that it stands to reason SC best man is a great liar, cheat, a fraud and is a morally bankrupt individual. Let pour a drink and rejoice in that and call it a day.
I ask the Lord, "Help Don find his way!"
Back into Rachels pants.
I'm not sure why so many people seemed to have misinterpreted Betty's breaking that chair. She went to polish it, was rickety. She pushed it around a little and since it seemed to be unfixable, she decided to break it up into small pieces that would fit into the garbage. It was just a thing that happens in everyday life, nothing Freudian about it, IMO.
Thanks to the posters for clearing up that song - I was a kid at that time but I remember the lyrics well, just not the right group.
I think people are applying today's lack of respect for Catholic priests to 1962. Father Gill is a young priest, fresh from Rome, assigned temporarily to this parish. He undoubtedly feels that Peggy has been placed in his path by God so that he, Fr. Gill, can help her save her soul. That was a firm belief in those days - people actually believed they had souls and would be rewarded or punished for their actions and behaviors. So different from today with Oprah and all the pop psychologists telling us there is no sin and we can blame everything on the parents and teachers who didn't meet our needs.
Lay off Father Gill, please. Don is a demonstrated s**t stain and yet people are on here defending his selfishness, lies and deceit. Peggy obviously needs help and Fr. Gill is trying to give her that.
I want Joan to be happy. She needs to get rid of that doctor. BTW, the didn't wash his hands before eating. What is Joan going to do about Jane, Draper's new secretary, who got so sassy with Joan in Episode 7? I want Joan to crush her.
Betty breaking the chair into bitty pieces is what she wants to do to Don Juan.
I find the Viagra commercials entertaining. Same for the free credit report dot com commercials (esp. the rapper party and the wife doing laundry in the basement).
The chair had it coming. I'm also pretty sure that Betty just likes to ride her horse to the point of exhaustion... for exercise! Yes! And she shoots at the neighbor's pigeons because she wants to safely scare them away from the yard! No bottled up rage there, folks.
Hi LaurieB! I know this was many posts ago, but, I have to respond!! I am so glad you brought up those stupid Viagra ads!
And what is the deal with the Cialis ads? The ad always ends with the couple sitting in 2 tubs? I can't figure that one out! Maybe they are saying that even with "shrinkage" from the water the Cialis will work?
Of course, I have to try to find the humor in everything...I laughed so hard when the disclaimer at the end of the ad says"if you have problems with vision" call your doctor right away. The first thing I thought was; the Nuns were right...you'll go blind from too much sex!!
12345Michael54321,
You entirely miss the point of the story. Joan could not tell Roger or Harry she was interested in the job because THEY NEVER TOLD HER THEY WERE MAKING A POSITION. Roger said to Harry, "Let's let the secretaries get back to their little jobs" or something like and "hire someone and give HIM 150 a week."
Joan couldn't speak up because she didn't know about it until the guy was hired and in the office. The casual way that Harry mentioned it to Joan was supposed to convey to the viewers how this was "accepted" practice at that time. Any working woman from that time can tell you stories about similar situations.
chopin47: Thanks fo the post on Father Gill. It is true - many priests back then actually believed in God, Heaven and Hell, Redemption, Salvation..in short the faith.
His duty as a priest is to save her soul.
I am still not over Joan having her heart broken.
The tears welling up in her eyes. Man she drives me totally insane.
I hate Harry Crane. I would comment on Betty but her behavior hits to close to home!!!
jamm54....
The conversation you overheard as Betty's guests exited the living room en route to the dining room was, "...Rogers & Cowen. It's a good place to be right now."
Then Roger turned to Don and remarked, "He does everything he is supposed to do..." as a compliment to how Duck does his thing with Crab to fulfill his job duties.
Translation/transcription courtesy of the caption capability on my tv....I never trust my hearing...lol
I agree with all of you about Betty seeing
the Jimmy Barrett commercial.
But I would like to say that I thought also it was the end of the "Gaslight" thing...meaning Betty no longer would be considered a "nut" (Better Utz then Nuts).
GuySmiley: Exactly. The "people of color" here and there highlight their invisibility to society. And though not entirely invisible these days, still to a degree...
12345Michael54321: Yes absolutely. And as each movement occurs in society, we will see "smidgens" of it on the show.
They have already had youth on the show (talking about what they wanted..brought in to learn about
youth and how to catch their attention)...
Women are already starting to see their lives beyond what is acceptable for them (Betty and the divorced lady and her neighbor who was cheated on...Peggy being more sexual and assertive...Joan being more than her body and charm...etc)
Interracial romance. Possible gay romance.
They will show more things.
I would like them to also go to Mexico and maybe
Don could meet the Chinese lady again...
or hey! Space Exploration was big...let some Martians appear and come work at the agency and have even more secret lives than Don and Peggy! LOL
Hi Maddicts! Does anyone remember when Fr. Gill was trying to get a confession out of Peggy? She said you wouldn't understand (paraphrasing). His response was, " I wasn't born a priest you know".
As if to say, "I'm human too".
I think his song at the end was in a way praying for strength from God.
Hey any Peter, Paul and Mary fans remember probably one of the most frequently played Christen wedding songs? I'm not positive, but, I think Paul Stookey was raised a Catholic.
I am so angry at Don and detest how he continues to lie to Betty's face. He's really good at the denial thing. If I see him exit another room by showing his profile and lowering one shoulder and swinging his leg like Festus I'll scream. It's a little mac-daddy pimp exit...and it makes me ill. I don't want to go on a rant, so instead I will post little tidbits that can be batted around.
Did anyone see that Jane's desk is empty and her chair was pushed in? Someone is covering her desk because she announced Betty's call that told Don not to come home. The pictures for next episode show Jane back on the job, so we will see who won the battle.
Pete is skipping behind Duck now, but he still is behind the 'big boys'..."Who is Rogers & Cowen?" Never quite up to par, is he?
Joan's mistake was not negotiating for her work ahead of time. A lot of women have run into her situation...I know I have, multiple times. The entire time, the men involved did not give Joan's candidacy a thought. Harry is oblivious to what he did because all men were this way. I feel for her. She is stuck in her sexual image. Peggy is stuck in hers, too (undercover nun). Betty is stuck in her sexual image (motherhood).
I hate the Joan is pregnant threads, but why would her fiance tell her she needs to "soothe her cravings?"
Most men of the day did not help in the kitchen, either. Don lounged on the couch while Betty and Carla worked to clean up the aftermath.
Betty never did understand why they were laughing at her expense. I had a husband that tried to belittle me and my understanding, too. To this day my 'hot' button is to be left out of anything....to be excluded deliberately as if I were a child or incapable of understanding.
Betty was an exceptional hostess. The place settings, and menu were top notch. She was a caring guide to Carla, too. I was watching for this. I am also relieved that Betty poured the wine...to see Carla do this would have spiked my irritation and taken away from the story they were telling.
Didn't want this to be a long post, and look what happened! By the next new episode (9/29), this thread will be over 1200 posts. Don't forget to watch the Emmys. Next years nominations will include this episode.
Betty seemed very upset that Don "knew" her so well that she would buy the Heineken beer. I think she told him not to come home, just to let him know that maybe he doesn't know her as well as he thinks he does! I think they will patch things up again. I don't see Betty striking out on her own. I think she was just making a point with Don.
That's an interesting viewpoint on Betty's sensitivity to being laughed at, greytone. I thought she might be feeling rather paranoid and a fool, after the Jimmy Barrett "confession speculations". But, being treated like a child gets to be old. Even today, you'll find that happens - depends on the marriage.
A friend of mine married a guy about 20 years her senior when she was in her early 20s. She was your classic, femmy, demure, submissive type of woman. When she hit her 30's, wham! Acting like a child or being treated like one in the marriage, and "daddy" ran the show/had all the answers wasn't going over very big anymore. There is something about hitting your 30's where you know you're not a kid anymore, and what you settled for or tolerated in your 20's, you're not going to in your 30's.
Just an FYI, I noticed 'Jimmy' in the movie "Something's Gotta Give" with Keaton/Nicholson the other day. Towards the end while rehearsing for the play, he asks Keaton about the script. Check it out.
I'm not so sure that Don is the rotten bastard most seem to think he is. I think he is Ken and Betty is Barbie. And in that sense, they are both doomed to some dissatisfaction in their marriage. There are no heros and no villains. In his work, though, Don is a kind of genius. His psychological insight is what feeds his incredible creativity. He is able to know exactly what Betty will do in a shopping environment. He says "I use our life all the time, that's part of my job." When she goes through his pockets, all she finds are cocktail napkins with advertising ideas scribbled on them. His riffs on the Kodak projector, Lucky Strike, Right Guard, and so on, are incredible. Many of Don's characteristics and the stories about the products are taken from (I think) The Mirror Makers: A History Of American Advertising And Its Creators by Stephen Fox. There is even a well-known figure named Draper Daniels, a creative director at the famous Leo Burnett Agency. Daniels wrote a book entitled Giants, Pygmies, and Other Advertising People. Chicago: Crain Publications, 1974. It's hard to find now.
Back to McMere's comment, "I'm not so sure that Don is the rotten bastard most people seem to think he is." I am new to the show, but the origins of Don's illicit sexuality seemed clear to me in the episode where, on a train, a woman proposes, "Leave the boy in the box behind. Let me buy you a drink." That experience seemed to initiate his use of sexuality to forget the person he left behind. It seems that he keeps his sex life as compartmentalized as his prior life. I've noticed that he most often calls upon his mistresses when he becomes distressed by a reminder of his former self. It is easy to disapprove of his behavior on the moral grounds that he is married, but I think that for him sex serves as a catharsis. The rest of us just have a hard time compartmentalizing sex and love.
The "cravings" comment is just a part of the overall plan that the MD has for Joan. Women's lib was preceeded by the Pill -- putting control of reproduction into the hands of women for the first time. I don't think it's a minor coincidence that the first scene of the first episode had Joan referring Peggy to her gyno. Birth control represents the first crack in the armor of patriarchal society, and the women of SC have the perfect vantage point to see through the hollow shell.
Joan sees her path unfolding, and despite her uncertainty she'll follow through with it because that's what she needs to do. The string of slights she's received could only reinforce that idea. Pregnancy will become an issue when her new husband makes her stop taking the pill.
Also, Joan is 33. Her metabolism ain't what it used to be.
....I think the "cravings" comment was more suggestive than literal..... like this light-weight Yoo-Hoo is telling Joan what she should be doing with her life, and suddenly she can barely remember to set the table and get his water.
This night to remember, Joan's mind is on Joan. She is realizing a husband and house in the country is like a Monet - it's great from far away, but not so good close up.
She is another example in this of women wanting more....of changes that are coming.
Betty saw the Utz commercial in a way that she would normally see Jimmy; i.e., charming, funny, flirting, the actor, spaztic almost. Then by watching the commercial (he is the same way) she remembers his total seriousness, his total honesty, sincerity. She then snaps and it dawns on her that he was telling the truth.
Joan's fiance came home with take out, she hadn't set the table, and she didn't remember to bring him water. WELL....she waits on people all day at work. Possibly in the begining of their relationship he was more attentive to her and that was why she fell for him. Now, like usually happens, he wants to be waited on. Joan has shown great leadership qualities in the office and should have gotten that position that was given to that MAN. She was so excited about the work it broke my heart when she was passed over but that's how it was and that is what brought about whole "Women's Lib Movement.
Betty's figured Don out. Even thought she didn't find anything incriminating, (Boy, Don's slick), she had what Jimmy told her. Also, Don tried sloughing her off, "I can't talk to you when you're like this" or words to that effect. I took it as though Don just stopped short of calling her crazy. What really set her off was seeing Jimmy's Utz commercial. "What, am I nuts?" That was what made it click. She knew that Don was a dog and would try to say she was crazy, loco, cookoo, a loon. "What proof or evidence" he asked her. Sewing doubt, hoping she'll break down and apologize to him. That's the kind of sick bastard Don is. Dipping in to all these gals on the side and then calling her bluff. When she crept up on him while he was on the couch, I heard the music from Psycho, I thought she was going to stab Don in his sleep. Btw, I think Hitchcock would have loved January Jones! Yeah, a wife accusing a husband of cheating and getting violent about it would get locked up and doped up in the funny farm. Betty realizes this and just tells Don to get lost. Who can Don turn to? He doesn't have any real friends. Roger? Heck, he made a pass for Betty. Cooper? Duck ? Not likely. Don won't be confessing to a priest either.
When Betty stepped on the glass in the bedroom I thought she was going to hurt herself. Sally coming in to find her mother lying with here elbow and arm covering her eyes was a familiar scene. My mother did that a lot, and I remember worrying about her. Can you imagine the anxiety the kids feel watching their mother break a dining room chair into bits?
I missed the Psycho music as background. I don't watch a lot of movies, so I guess I miss a lot. Thanks everyone for the tie-ins.
I agree with a_mob_hit...
The key to Betty's revelation was the phrase, "What, am I nuts?" in the commercial. She then knew that he was trying to make her believe she was crazy and had imagined it all. Her step forward was realizing she was not crazy, and Don was continuing to lie to her.
donadenese: No, that was Lois, the secretary that Don recently fired. Sal's wife is Kitty, from his hometown of Baltimore.
Jamm54: On another thread I said something similar. I think Joan will get a job offer from one of the clients and will make Roger give her a counter-offer to stay at SC. The doctor's days are numbered. Brilliant job at showing Joan's gradual "awakening." I do think she has been influenced by Peggy, and vice versa. "Whoever is before you is your teacher."
Greytone: You made me remember something painful from my childhood. I would often come home from school to find that my mother hadn't been out of bed all day. I didn't know the word "depression" back then, but I knew that my mommy didn't always act like other mommies. This show is striking close to home.
The song that Father Gil plays at the end of the episode is called "Make Love Stay" by Dan Fogelberg. It can be found on his Greatest Hits album on Amazon.com.
mcmere---Draper Daniels of Leo Burnett? Love it! Check out their website leoburnett.com. Whoever designed it is a genius.
I guess I'm so smitten with Don Draper that I can't see him as some sort of jerk who is getting what he deserves. I see him as a complicated character, hard to figure out but with reasons for what he does. I couldn't help but feel sorry for him in the last scene where he is sitting in the break room alone.....But as I wrote earlier, I think he'll be back home soon. Betty is trying to make a point.
Regarding Peggy: I did not say she killed her baby intentionally - I think she accidentally caused it some harm and now feels terrible guilt. She simply looks too upset in that last scene for it to have merely been that she had premarital sex. Even for the early 60s, I simply do not see sex or pregnancy being the source of her apparent terror and shame.
And by the way, "Jeez- get a clue" is not the most cogent argument I have ever heard.
Did anyone think the same thing as I did on this?
When Duck came to the door with flowers I thought he and Betty had a little "moment". He is lonely and admires Betty as a lovely lady. She did not really notice him but I think the story line would be interesting if these two somehow found each other! I think Duck would become a NEW man with the right woman...
I don't think Betty likes her son at all. She seems to always be yelling at him. And I really wish everyone would stop calling Sally fat or "chubby". She looks fine to me and you are going to give that cute little girl ( the actress) a complex.
Mr. Hendrix (as in Jimmy?) another poster determined that the song at the close of the show was a Peter Paul and Mary tune fcalled "Early in the Morning" from the Peter, Paul, and Mary album. Scroll up to Cad Man (Mad Magagine cover guy character picture) and you can get the lyrics as well.
bocaratonfan- Boobs under the priest's collar???? A dirty magazine???? You're kidding right?
Betty breaking the chair-
I only saw one other post that made mention of the furniture polish on the dining room table. My neighbor and I (another MM fan) discussed this on our walk this morning. I remembered seeing the bottle, but she also made the connection of the label of the polish saying "Pride". You see it very clearly as the camera pans back and Betty has just finished breaking the chair apart. The connection to the broken chair and Betty's broken pride is clear. No one trashes a wobbly chair into pieces just to make it fit in the garbage better! That was a nice chair that just needed a little re-gluing. It was just a reminder of something she wanted Don to address before the dinner party, which being pissed at him at the time was enough to set her off. It makes sense that she lost it on the chair.
Haven't any of you ever broken something irrationally because you were pissed about something completely different?
An example of this that comes to mind for me was tripping over one of my my son's trucks in the hallway that I had many times asked him to pick up. It killed my toe, I was tired and stressed at the time, and out of anger I kicked the metal truck into the wall which broke a hole in our drywall the week before we were putting our house on the market. My husband was so pleased. Hey, it happens!
I'm just wondering if Attention Deficit Theater will give a voice to the chair. If so, it might be saying, "Dammit woman! I'm not the one who cheated on you! Go kick your husband's ass and leave me alone!"
The song Father Gil plays on his guitar is a Paul Stookey composition entitled "Early In The Morning". It is the very first cut Peter, Paul and Mary's self-titled 1962 debut album. Nice choice to end this episode. Each of the characters carry burdens or that leave them at an crossroads; each uncertain of the direction ahead.
The song Father Gil plays on his guitar is a Paul Stookey composition entitled "Early In The Morning". It is the very first cut on Peter, Paul and Mary's self-titled 1962 debut album. Nice choice to end this episode. Each of the characters carry burdens or that leave them at an crossroads; each uncertain of the direction ahead and in need of something to help heal the wounds.
Wills46er- Agree that this is a good choice, but then again I have always loved Peter , Paul and Mary. I sang many of their songs as a kid. "Puff the Magic Dragon" and "If I Had a Hammer" were my favs though. I just played their "10 Years Together" album today on my Curtis Mathis console stereo. Nothing sounds better than tube stereo off an original album.
Swanky, you're right. She broke the chair out of frustration, not to make it smaller for the garbage. I could see her pursing her lips just a little and huffing a bit. It was a very controlled little meltdown, but, she IS Nordic.
I can't imagine how she held out that long after she heard the truth from Jimmy and that she was actually planning a lovely dinner party for the lying bastard. I would have told him to take his buddies to Burger King and he can shove a Whopper where the sun don't shine while he's at it! The chair incident shows she was just barely holding onto her emotions, and the beer was just the final straw. I'm glad that she finally stood up for her self, but it sure took a long time!
Regarding Joan's being passed over for a job that she was doing quite well....we have to stop viewing that scene through the lens of 2008 (which makes us both indignant and sad for her) and put on our cat eye glasses of 1962. Then we can be happy that she discovered a gift and talent that she didn't even know she had (and realized that she actually understands the business she has been supporting for years). Perhaps she'll use those skills in the future when her marriage to the dull and unappreciative doctor falls apart.
Harry wasn't being insensitive in this context. It wouldn't have even crossed his mind to consider the office manager--who was so vital to the running of SC --for this role. That's not a conversation with Sterling and/or Cooper he can even imagine. Moving Joan into this new role would have been all together different than moving a junior secretary over to copy writing as in Peggy's case. Besides he probably knew about her engagement and figured she was a short-timer anyway.
And while it was a bit jarring for Joan to realize that she was being replaced in this role (once she trained her replacement), it was just the way things were then. She never thought to protest or complain. Yeah, Harry could have been a bit more appreciative that she "helped out" as much as she did, but then he's used to being supported by women to get his job done. My $.02
I really enjoy this show, and I get enormous pleasure reading these comments afterwards. You folks can zoom in on things I missed, you can think up the most amazing "what if" scenarios, and pose the most interesting questions. I also love hearing your memories from your lives during that time period. I wonder if the creative folks who work on Mad Men ever read these comments - they are missing so much if they do not. Thanks to you all for sharing your thoughts with the rest of us!
So you OD'ed on Peter, Paul and F***ing Mary Dry Manhattan? Too funny! I thought "Blowin' In the Wind" was a Bob Dylan original, but maybe not. I know PP&M sang it too.
I didn't get this stuff to that extreme. I grew up more in the 70's so this stuff was more camp fire songs by then.
the overly earnest folk music movement, and all its social overtones, were so tiresome and pedantic. even "puff the magic dragon" had too much of a message.
meld that with religion and you have a cosmic yawn on your hands. boring!
but weren't people starting to look for "meaning" beyond the traditions of established institutions in those days? and like all malcontents and revolutionaries, they dismantle or hobble the existing order and replace it with an entrenched order of their own, perhaps with a different style and a different set of "do's and don'ts".... just as repressive as the old, if not more so. they take over as the new power structure and begin telling everyone what to do.
that's why it's important to be skeptical of anyone promoting "change".
I have to put this on now while I'm watching because I really admire the continuity of this show, but Roger just asked Harry if "he was on crack"! I am most certain that this drug was not around back then, or at least it was not referred to as crack. That was really out of place.
Crack? I missed that. I'm still trying to figure out who this "Mitch" is who they keep refering to. I don't recall a Mitch. Harry said to Roger,"between you and me I don't think Mitch is happy with my promotion."
Mitch is the guy in Harry's office. I missed the crack crack, too.
Duck - Crab. Crab - Duck. Classic!
Theme tonight - "Why would I lie?"
Are you sure? I thought his name is Warren.
Yes, Loved the Duck- Crab. Roger is a hoot!
Liar, Liar pants on fire , Don!
Poor Betty - it's all very "Gaslight"-ish.
It's the first time I have ever truly DESPISED Don.
Changed my mind - the theme is "Am I nuts? I don't think so."
Way to go, Betty!!!!!
Peggy just walked into the SC office with Fr. Gill, and Ken asked Harry if we got the "Miracle Whip" contract? Another classic moment!
Love Duck, Crab, Crab, Duck in the intros.at the house!!
Rock on Father Gill!
I'm glad Pete was back in this episode! Don, you are garbage and you know it. You deserve to be kicked out.
I want Betty to somehow meet Rachel. Rachel will obviously know who Betty is but not vice versa.
Poor Joan. She's going to have to accept being "the little woman." Maybe that's why she keeps getting bigger.
Yikes!
Betty is cracking up.
:-(
Bless her heart . . .
I did not even hear that! It was perfect that they had Betty running the horse at full speed for the first scene and then the scene where she broke up the chair was perfect again! Joan's fiance is real! I never doubted it and he is cute. Very healthy showdown between Bets and Don even though he lied. Her looking like hell at breakfast was so real and he just went to work. I do not see her having an affair with the guy at the stable; he isn't attractive in the least. Great looks between her and Don in the bedroom; he finally blinked! His "Why would I lie to you?" during the Heineken pitch was again perfect. I predict the clients will object to the new script person and will insist on the person being Joan which will introduce new conflict between her and Roger and possibly between her and her fiance who seems to make it clear that once he is established he will not want her working. Tom Hanks son is great, but did he really expect Peggy to spill her guts in the office? It was interesting that Betty said one of her dinner recipes was from her German relative because she is showing some German no-nonsenseness with the phone call to Don to tell him to stay away. He really looked flummuxed drinking that beer in the office kitchen. I will now check out the scenes for next week!
I would call this episode "She's Come Undone"!!
I lost a lot of respect for Harry for choosing a clueless man over Joan. Maybe he was threatened by her. She should be running that department.
Good for Betty for finally confronting Don. That poor chair took the brunt of her frustration, though. She should do cage matches.
Not sure....I think the theme has something to do with women in pain/women being exploited...I am far more interested in what goes on in the office than the other stuff on the show, but...Joan was obviously brilliant in her dealings with the scripts/TV dept./sponsors...and yet she sees some schmuck hired and Harry doesn't even think of her for the position. AND then they want to pick HER brain as to what they should do. Peggy is being exploited by Father Gill, both for her ability as a writer and as target for "redemption." And Betty is slowly going nuts in her jealousy and bottled up rage that Don is cheating on her.
OK People - lets get a grip here:
(1) EMMY WORTHY ACTING BY BETTY AND JOAN - you all wanted the true Betty and here she is - now she has some depth - FINALLY!
(2) Joan broke my heart. Nuff said - that scene with Harry was the first time she has shown true emotion and her real self
(3) Duck-Crab- Crab- Duck - classic Roger
(4) Do you thing Roger gave Harry his assistant out of spite for Joan or did he think he was doing a favor
(5) Sally is Piglet in the play!!!
(6) "How can that be - you made that job up" Ken to Harry - cracked up!
Rewatching now I'll post when a new thought comes into my brillant head!
Betty finally got a spine! Good for her! Its about time! I felt bad for Joan as she obviously enjoyed and excelled at reading the scripts. So, Harry hires some inept guy for the job. Yeah, like that is going to work. I wonder if Betty is going to divorce Don or at least kick him out of the house for a while? I think they should have the priest sing some more!
Warren is the the guy in Harry's office - I don't know who Mitch is. Betty finally got a spine....she threw the creep out. Betty isn't cracking up she finally sees the light.
I think Peggy is going to face Pete at least that's what the preview fr next week looks like.
All about the gals!
Roger really asked "You smoke, Crane?" to Harry. Not "you smoke crack." Just to address the first comment.
I think January Jones is really coming into her own. The scene where she breaks apart the chair was perfect. The kids had the perfect look as well.
I watched it again.
Roger asked, "Do you smoke, Crane?"
Not crack.
So is Joan pregnant? Fiance says, "Joan, you should be watching those shows not reading them. With a box of bon bons on your lap to soothe your cravings." Is that why she's gaining weight and looking so buxom these days? :) The tight bra strap at the end?
Loved Betty's phone call at the end. And the commercial. This show is so great...genius and quick turns at every corner!
Right Pete's blue pajamas. Harry's last name is Crane...just saw it again with CC on.
"She's so much woman." I love it!
Mitch must be in accounting.
Harry is not a schmuck -- that's how it was always done. The secretary filled in, then someone was hired in - at $150 a week no less! - and she was expected to teach him then go back to her little desk and type with a smile on her face.
Ya think Joanie is Preggers?
Roger: Do you smoke, Crane?
Harry (Crane): Sometimes.
no one said smoking crack. Sounds like audio pareidolia to me :)
Roger did not ask Harry if he smoked crack he just asked if he smoked and Harry answered sometimes.
Gee when Don looked Betty straight in the eyes & swore nothing happened...I thought my god I wouldn't want to play poker with this guy. He's toooo goood. But after seeing Betty search through all his things & later watch the UTZ commercial with Jimmy, then tell Don not to come home? Well I'd have to give Betty the "champion" poker player to call the bluff even though your opponent has the "a pair of sixes" against your "royal flush". Crane's gonna lose those sponsors without Joan reading those scripts. That bozo he hired will spend more time telling stupid jokes to impress then to really get the feel for what the clients are looking for when booking a spot.
Who are these Colson people?
Why are you talking about crack instead of this brillantly acted show?!!! Roger ALWAYS grubs cigarettes!!! A week or two ago Don threw the cig at him and told him to leave his office!!!
Harry seriously disappointed me. Just when I thought he was cool, he basically uses Joan and then tosses her aside, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised at that kind of treatment now should I? I wanted her to get the job. Gobarack, I hope you're right. I hope the clients DO insist on Joan. Harry is being an idiot.
I'm glad Betty stood her ground with Don and put him out. Who else laughed when she asked how he could do that with Bobbie adding, "She's so old"?
I
Love the pre dinner ballet performance!
Crab's wife sure likes to drink!! Speaking of that, did anyone notice the Heinekin wasn't touched at the end of the dinner?
Betty's family is a combination of Nordic and German.
Heinken is from Holland??? NO!!! That's what SC was trying to push? Can't say it was German, no?
I don't doubt you, NancyStow, but it's horrifying, and poignant. I think for a moment Joan thought she might follow in the footsteps of Peggy. She deserved to.
Anyone want to bet Joan will have Harry's job? I think that's where we may be heading...
I hope people won't get annoyed at me for asking, but does anyone thing Father Gill might end up having a secret thing for Peggy...or is it just concern?
Holy product placement, Batman! Isn't it ironic that a show that deals with sly advertising tactics is pulling one on its viewers? AMC Sales Department, to put it in Betty's words: "You embarrassed me." Keep Heineken on the commercial breaks, please. Remember: if the show is smart, so are the viewers; stop trying to get us to play dumb.
Re: Betty opening up a bottle of awesomeness
I love how Mrs. Draper grew a pair...and the proceeded to cut off Don's. I actually cried a few times during this episode. January Jones, I underestimated you.
Does anyone know why, right after seeing the Utz commercial on TV, Betty called Don and told him not to come home? She seemed to be thawing in the previous scene on Don's little couch-bed. What did she see in that commercial? Or maybe it reminded her of something that happened at the start of their affair and was reminded of it by seeing it or Jimmy?
It would have been hilarious if Roger said "You smoke crack?" and Harry said "Sometimes" though.
I didn't think Joan's fiancee was her type. Too preppy. Wonder how they met? Did she ever say? I felt bad for her that she wasn't even considered for the job, too. It was cool to see her in her hipster clothes and bare feet at her apt. She seemed younger (though not as young as her fiancee).
What was the music at the end? Who were the performers? I remember it, vaguely, but can't recall who was singing.
Did anyonecatch all of the comments around Joan refering to size? She tells Harry when he asks for help,"I don't know. We're spread very thin." Then Warren comments,"She's so much woman". Even Joan's fiance (very cute by the way) talks about her needing to look for a house and getting prepared to eat bon-bons.
mcmere - I had hoped for the same. I think customers will complain.
mte - LOL! I hate, loathe, despise and abominate that commercial. I really don't get it. If anything, it makes me purposely NOT want to book with hotels.com.
eternal_llama -- yes, the Thornbirds theme is definitely being set up.
Sitting up and watching the comments roll in is more fun that watching election returns with Tom Brokaw and Tim Russert!
Don can come-on-a-my house...I'll give him candy! Ha! Ha! ha!
Hi CarrieB! I love your dog! I think the Utz commercial with Jimmy reminded Betts of their last encounter.
(1) I do not think that Joan aspired to be anything then what she is - but once she got the job and was excited and inspired by it she wanted more. That's why it broke my heart
(2) I wondered about Father and Peggy and I do not think he has a thing for Peggy. Mind you I am a Roman Catch and was sitting on the edge of my seat at that last scene to see what he was gonna do in his room and when he pulled out the guitar I was a little relieved!!
(3) I think Peggy was soooo disgusted when she saw Jimmy's commercial - thinking how can (1) Don be involved with this idiot (2) how can he screw that sleazes wife.
Hi birdieo! I think it was sung by Peter, Paul and Mary (or an earlier version of the group).
I wouldn't say 'she's come undone". I'd say she's figured it out. I love that she grew a pair and told Don not to come home. She knew he was looking right at her and lying. I went through this tonight. Couldn't have been a better episode for me tonight. I'm trying to deal with exactly what Betty is dealing with. Joan obviously expected to be promoted as she should have been. She gave very vague ideas to the new guy. Betty is a conundrum, she asked Don to fix the outlet in the dining room, and Don say's "Thought you were going to call the electrician".She tells him exactly how to do it, and he says "Sounds like you could do it". But that's beside the point. She want's him to pull his weight. Wasn't particularly thrilled with the priest and Peggy's scenes. I say GO BETTY!
Joan pregnant? That's an interesting idea. You might be right. Why are they waiting to get married then? Shouldn't they hurry up? Though I thought she looked thinner at her place in pants than she does in dresses at the office. They were talking about buying a house, weren't they?
I think the fiance's comments were that Joan SHOULD be a stay-at-home pregnant wife, not that she is now. He made a comment about needing to finish his training after she said she stopped looking for a house in Glen Cove. He doesn't want her to get more involved at work aka build her career.
Thanks for the correction of "Crane". I feel so much better now!
Joan has a special mojo that works on men and again I think the clients will want to work with her. In my limited experience many men will always choose to work with an attractive woman over someone ordinary.
As an aside: I do not remember Heineken beer being sold here in the States until about 1978 or so. Up until then it was Bud, Miller, Pabst and the other usual standbys.
ldraper - I'm so sorry. Been there, done that. Survived it and am MUCH better off. Hope you have lots of good friends to pull you through it. If not, you have us (the Maddicts!). Big hug!
Just when I think I couldn't love Joan anymore...she's my kind of cook! Chinese take out!!
Don really messed up his encounter with Betty in which he said, "I love you, Bets. I love the kids. I don't want to lose all this," or something like that. She wanted to hear that he loves HER and doesn't want to lose HER. (Plus, it might help if he told the truth!) And he's supposed to be able to tell what women want so he can sell it to them! Betty just walked off when he said that. Don just doesn't get it. Also, I had an ex-husband like Don--just deny, deny, deny.
Maybe because it brought back in full black and white the sleaziness of Don's business and his choice of a Jewish old woman to humiliate her with. It was like a slap in the face through the TV.
Does anyone know why, right after seeing the Utz commercial on TV, Betty called Don and told him not to come home? She seemed to be thawing in the previous scene on Don's little couch-bed. What did she see in that commercial?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As Mcmere pointed out the show centered around women being "used". Betty as a "market study", Joan for her reading & savvy input from client's pov, and Peggy for her ad expertise on the church flyers.
@MadMenSuze: Ahh, the plot thickens (see my previous comment). Can you confirm that date?
MadMenSuze: according to Wikipedia, Heineken has been imported to the United States consistently since prohibition ended.
I did a tour of the original Heineken brewery in Amsterdam a few years back, beautiful place--O.K. beers. :)
Joan has no domestic skills at all -- and no motherly instinct. Remember how she treated Sally the day Sally came into the office on a Sunday.
Best episode of the season.
I think that another theme in this episode is about the characters being truthful to themselves about who they are and what they want.
1. Betty had to be truthful to herself about the nature of her marriage and also how Don regarded her and treated her.
2. Don has now been challenged by his wife to finally come clean and be truthful about how he lives his life and what kind of person he is.
3. Joan had to be truthful to herself about how she is regarded, her prospects, her goals and how she can possibly change her own life.
4. Peggy is challenged by her priest to be truthful to herself about any mistakes she's made and how she wants to continue. There's some evidence that she still isn't fully cogniscent her role in the office by the snarky comments Ken and the crew made.
I was totally heartbroken for Joan. I got such a high seeing Joan maneuver her own way to play at the table. I loved how she knew where to plug her charms and intellect. Then to see Roger casually cast her out of the running for an assistant position had me crushed. I have to hand it to the writers for that whirlwind of emotions.
I really hope that something turns around for Joan with that position. It was incredulous to see her felled by the boys club system. Last week and the week before, we saw how she realized that her looks could only take her so far as long as age knocked her off sexpot pedestal. Now it comes full circle and I felt her hurt at seeing her realize the whole game. Christina Hendricks deserves an Emmy, no question.
Betty had a similar blow delt to her with that dinner party--what a complete slap in the face--cheers to her for fighting back! I am completely satisfied with the way her arc is going. This needed to happen. Don is despicable at this point--loser unless he turns around and gives her the truth.
I LOVE THIS SHOW!
...and ps: of course this show is brilliant, lorantscan, it is 'continuity' that I am speaking about, not Whitney Houston!lol This show never misses it's mark, and I'm glad my hearing was off tonight! I agree w/u eternalllama re: Father Gill. I felt that way from the 1st time he met her. He is so young, though, wouldn't be questioned.
Joan got exactly what she deserved for dissing Peggy afew weeks ago!
Thanks for answering my question... 60'schild, Dixiegirl, lorantscan. Now I can sleep.
These episodes get better and better. I explained what the dash board headlight sensor did on the Cadillac to my missis ten seconds before Don did. He makes me look good. It's the sixties life, things and culture that they work into the show that make it soooo cool!!!
Joan is headed for trouble with that fiance. When he arrived home, he chastised her first thing for not setting the table. He "reminded" her to get him some water. He seems as though he will be very controlling.He also belittled her job by saying he thought all she did all day was walk around and get stared at. He is good-looking and possibly younger than she is. Let's hope Joan wises up before taking the big step with a guy who seems like a prime candidate for being a JERK!
Don in a hat--trillby? fedora?--is a thing of beauty!!
Guy Smiley - I agree with you and I posted some simiIar observations before but I don't think Don purposely set out to embarrass Betty. He just can not take ANYONES feelings into consideration - it's not in his makeup as a person. And Roger commented how Joan's "attentions are divided at best" I do not think he purposely went to bring down Joan. He didn't know how much she liked it and he would ALWAYS give her what she really wants.
Did anyone else think Betty was a little oversensitive about the dinner party? I think it was more about how she felt she was being used in general. Things happening behind her back. Don knows her so well, he thinks, that he can sell her and turn around and fool her. She doesn't want to be humiliated. Being humiliated in social settings seems to be more important to her than anything. I think she didn't know what to believe until the nuts commercial. I think she saw Jimmy as Don - the salesman who'll say anything to sell a product.
StephanieJo - CRACK IS WHACK!
NancyStowOh, Thank you so much! Its killing me. If they can lie to your face about one thing they can lie about anything . I'm finally waking up, but I'm definitly not going crazy, and neither is Betty. She had every reason to suspect Don. Why would you guy's say she's going crazy? She's figuring it out! Notice Joan's placement of her purse in front of her tummy in the office. The old hide the tummy with a big bag ploy. Don't think she's pregnant though.But who knows?
(I'm so sick of that man's human beat box in the chemistry.com commercial. Stop embracing it!)
@Carrie
I think it might be because the commercial was about nuts and that combined with Jimmy probably convinced her that she wasn't going insane (aka nuts) after all.
Pete's ... another brillant take - Betty was revolted by Jimmy
Pete's blue pajamas,
Yes, I think Betty was oversensitive about the dinner party, but the tension has been building in her for a long time about Don's infidelity, so she would understandably be somewhat upset over finding out that Don used her in an experiment for work.
I think seeing Jimmy in the commercial just brought it all back - she saw Don and Bobbi together at the Stork Club that night and she knew something was going on - you can always tell when people are involved with each other. She knew it was true.
Being humiliated in social situations was a huge deal back in those days for anyone but esp. for women. Betty's whole persona is her family and her roles as wife and mother. So, any hint that she falls short of those roles would be humiliating, just as Don would be humiliated if anyone thought he was falling short at his work.
Was the music Father Gill was playing the Mamas and the Papas? I remember the song but not sure of the group.
Don's behavior was very typical - as Betty confronted him he tried to put it back on her AND SHE DIDN'T LET HIM! As been said by a lot of others on her, I have an ex-husband (alcoholic) like that. It was never what he did that was the problem - the problem was how I REACTED to what he did!
Betty: I know you're having an affair.
Don: How much have you been drinking?
Betty: How could you? She's OLD.
Don: I see how he looks at you.
Bravo to January for being seen without makeup. I have loved her from the beginning and I'm glad to see others appreciate her acting.
I think seeing Jimmy in that utterly crass commercial in which food is falling out of his mouth as he talks reminded her of the whole low-class nature of the affair. She told Jimmy that "you people are rude and ugly" or something like that. She saw Bobbi as old and probably ugly. Of course, seeing Jimmy unexpectedly on TV brought back the memory of that night in a powerful way. She can't escape it. I have always thought January Jones was brilliant in this role. I hope her detractors have changed their minds!!!
There's no "Go Betty!" She'll see Helen Bishop or something, her hands will go numb and she'll beg Don to come back home! She's that flaky!!
Perhaps Christina Hendricks is pg in real life?
I think the scene at the end - the bra-strap-sore shoulders - was symbolic of all the boobs she has to hold up at work.
I just noticed (rewatching now) the juxtaposition of Peggy hugging her stomach after the priest left and the next shot - the oven in Betty's house. Bun in the oven!
brideo:
The music at the end was by Peter, Paul and Mary, who were an enormously popular folk-singing group in the sixties. I don't know the name of the song, just that it was very beautiful.
Great catch, Pete's!!
Hey JamieK, I would have said Don watched the movie:A Guide for the Married Man (starring Robert Morse)...but it didn't come out in theatres until 1967. But one of the first rules for being caught in an affair was ", deny, deny, deny".
I also like Peggy in the tub - trying to feel clean.
I gotta go to bed - have fun all of you on the West Coast - can't wait to read YOUR comments tomorrow!
I think Bets was trying to make a go of it but that commercial brought it all back and she knew she wasn't ready to pretend life was the same. Did anyone notice during the Heineken pitch Dutch nailed Bets describing her as "well-off, striving to be the perfect entertainer/ housewife, etc.." and Don visibly grimaced? I don't know if he didn't like her being characterized like that or he didn't like that Dutch noticed her striving and then he Don being so insensitive to her efforts.
Betty's reaction to the Utz potato chip commercial is simple - it's Jimmy Barrett, and every time she sees him, she will be reminded all over again about her husband's infidelity and his lies to her. She might have been thawing towards Don after the couch conversation, but just seeing Barrett's face was enough to bring back all the ugliness and the doubts about her husband.
I loved the shot of Joan from the rear when she lowered her strap and rubbed the sore, red spot on her shoulder. Well endowed women everywhere will know that feeling - I don't care how well your bra is fitted - at the end of long day, your shoulders ache.
I don't think Roger Sterling was refusing to give Joan the position with Harry - I think he had no clue Joan was involved to the extent she was. Harry certainly did not tell him. Harry should have been aware of Joan's value to him and spoken up about giving her the job or at least keeping part of the team. This will come back to haunt him, I am sure. I notice Harry is clueless alot of time - he completely missed the point of Roger's question re: the cigarettes - Roger is a total mooch - he'll take anything not nailed down in the way of women, smokes and booze.
I did not see Jane anywhere in this episode, so maybe she thought better of defying Joan and skedaddled?
heineken is from holland. not germany.
betty's behavior is perfectly understandable given that she is absolutely right in "knowing" that don was screwing bobbi. her estimation of him is correct. he did it and he can't (or won't) help herself. someone used an apt term above - "gaslighting"... even though i don't like betty, no woman deserves to be treated that way.
don did what all chronically adulterous husbands do - deny, lie and if need be, claim the wife is delusional, crazy, hysterical. they will go so far as to defame the wife's sanity and behavior to other people, to build up a case against her so when the matter becomes public (in a divorce, for example) his witnesses, some of whom were friends of the couple, can attest to the wife's increasingly unstable behavior and her malicious accusations of the husband, who's a great guy. it happens all the time. the more practiced and habitual the adulterer, the better he will be at developing a persona and reputation of being a terrific friend, husband and father. wife beaters and emotional abusers do the same thing. and they often get away with it.
it's the normally faithful idiot who has a brief fling or one night stand and feels guilty, who will admit it if he's cornered and accused. not the professional cheater.
i hope that if don and betty separate and she fioles for divorce, somehow she finds an ally in bobbi, who will not only tell of her own affair with don, but give names of other women who "know" don.
NancyStow - like the boobs inference - Also Pete's Betty did not feel humiliated because she didn;t live up to being a perfect wife. She is a perfect wife to Don on the facade (to Duck, Roger, etc..) Betty was humiliated because at that MOMENT during the dinner party she felt she was being mocked for being so perfect.
Can anyone tell me the name of the song that Father sings and plays at the end of Episode 8, and then comes in with more singers over the end credits? Is this a known group, or was it recorded specially for the show?
I think Don felt a twinge of guilt hearing Duck describe her as the perfect wife - because she is the perfect wife and he had just lied to her face.
Come on, Visan...even you have to admit that it was pretty cool of Betty to put Don out like that. She's finally acknowledging how she truly feels. I thought she would cave (it seemed she was about to before the commercial) but instead she stuck to her guns. It's a start.
Betty just wants to feel included in Don's life, as she's mentioned in the last few episodes. Don wasn't trying to not include her in the joke, but that's how it made her feel. Betty finally got to him, right where it hurts. She knew he was lying and made sure he knew she wasn't buying into his alibi. And now he is finally paying the price of his infidelity.
I think the priest and Peggy thing is a little weird. The priest wants to help Peggy, but he also comes off as wanting to know her more personally. Peggy is like a robot, she will not go any deeper wth anyone. I like seeing her get feisty, though! The way she conducts herself is with such elegance that I only want to see her get nasty with someone finally! But, that is not her character.
As for Don, well, his behavior is getting the best of him, and now that he can't live his double-life he is not sure what to do. He can no longer get his fill now when he decides to flirt with other women, where's the fun now that Betty knows? We will see what happens with that.
And I think everyone is right on the whole Joan preggers. The clothes not fitting, the bon bon comment, house searching? It may be true. Also, on imdb.com, the next episode is titled "Six Month Leave". Just saying.....
correction: "he can't (or won't) help HIMself."
This is the only show that can get your emotions pulled in every direction. Last week, everybody (including myself) was moaning for Don and now we're moved for Betty.
This show is genius! You want to love Don for his good looks and mysterious nature, but at the same time, you want him to go down in flames for lying straight to Betty's face. No remorse!!
I am blown away by Betty's character. I didn't see this level of reaction, especially this early on. January Jones confirmed what I already thought, she is superb as this character!
Never knew Heiny was from Holland - learn something new everyday. Always thought it was German
Paul B, I want to say it is a song by Peter, Paul and Mary of the 60's, and not written for the show.
Vison, that may have been Betty even a few episodes ago. She has been growing more aware every week . This week she came into her own. What make' you think she'll all of a sudden melt into a pool of mush?
Didn't you overhear Harry talking to the guys and saying something idiotic like "My work is done, I'm just showing up when she goes into labor..' when questioned about his wife's pregnancy? I guess we are still a few years away from Lamaze and childbirth training for couples. Anybody know when that came into popularity?
I think Betty is very sensitive to the possibility of being mocked behind her back. A childlike person like her probably would have been mocked throughout her life. She would probably have been the person who didn't "get it." At the dinner party, she was standing up proudly and describing the international theme of the dinner, and people laughed. Poor Betty. She had tried so hard, and people laughed.
When Betty was going through Don's suits and desk, I thought she was going to discover the box that Pete originally took home and snooped through.Whew! One of the drawers was locked. I wonder if she'll eventually want to know what's in the locked drawer?
E_llama: I will never give Betty credit because ther are people with REAL problems in 1962. The fracture of her "perfect" life ain't one of 'em!
Have to say this, because for some bizarre reason, some get the impression that my dissing the "Betty" character is my dissing Jan Jones. Hells to the naw! Jan Jones (Christina Hendricks and Elisabeth Moss too!) kicks ass every week in that role! And it's a damn shame none got an Emmy nod!
Jon Hamm has to take one home for the whole cast, I guess!
*there
I thought Betty was going to find that box, too! But Don is smarter than that to just leave things lying around. When will they do a flashback again? I love when they do that.
**I will never give Betty credit because ther are people with REAL problems in 1962. The fracture of her "perfect" life ain't one of 'em!**
Yeah...I think I know exactly what you are talking about.
I liked the truth theme. The truth about who we are. The ending where we see Joan undressing, Peggy in the tub, and also Fr. Gill taking off his collar. The "stripping down to who we really are" vs. what people see on the outside theme made sense.
Don and Betty appear to have it all together, Peggy appears to have put her past behind her, Joan appears to want to be the happy fiance getting ready for married life, and Fr. Gill appears to be concerned about Peggy's soul.
The truth behind all of these characters is quite contrary. Don and Betty's marriage is hitting a boiling point, Peggy can't keep pretending her past never happened, Joan is realizing that maybe the dutiful wife role is a lot less appealing than making things happen in the business world, and Fr. Gill may be realizing that he has feelings that go beyond his priestly duties for Peggy.
I never thought I would clap at the end of a tv show until tonight. Well done.
Don is probably very afraid right about now. He thought he could just deny the whole thing and Betty would believe him. That's what he does so well--sell things to people.
Considering his deprived background as Dick Whitman, he would probably be especially terrified of losing the lifestyle he now enjoys with a beautiful home, beautiful wife, and great kids. And to lose it all over the affair with BOBBI! He was never in love with her as he appeared to be with Rachel and the earlier woman.
By the way, if Betty becomes single, Don's predatory co-workers will probably by vying for who can get to her first.
I didn't see people laugh at Betty during the dinner party; I was impressed! I hardly ever entertain because it is so much damn work and I have a husband who cooks!
I agree completely with Swanky K. Everything is catching up with them and they have reached their breaking points for sure.
Not for nothin' Lorantscan, but it clearly says on the label of the bottle that Heinies come from Holland.
>
I'm with you! She's a wussy little thing. She seems to have no identity apart from being Mrs. Don Draper. I just don't see any "inner steel" in Betty at all.
Did anyone notice when she was going through Don's desk and she found the little valentine their daughter made him, she made a disgusted little grimace and tossed it aside?!
Honestly, I don't think she loves Don OR the kids. It's all about status. Would be interesting to see some flashbacks on HER former life. How did she get so ice cold?
Someone commented on here that Don will just lie to anyone--- deny, deny, deny. I've mentioned before that I think he's a sociopath. This is a person with a COMPLETE lack of conscience. Whatever benefits Don, is just fine with Don, and that's what Don does. Yukkk.
In the first scene, Don was squarely on Betty's side of the bed... he looked funny there. But he was squarely back on his side after a brief cutaway. Mistake? or hidden meaning? I think mistake.
Hey there Carrie B., my take on your question is this: even after Jimmie telling Betty about Don and Bobby, Betty soldiers on. She prepares a lovely dinner party; she's dressed to perfection in her perfect suburban housewife wear. When she feels like the butt of a joke over the Heineken/product placement/survey business she feels left out and used - again and by whom? Don - again. The anger and the feelings of betrayal continue to come to the surface for her. Notice that she remains in her perfect hostess garb for a couple of days. It's her identity and she maintains that costume and she holds on to that "front" for dear life. It may be all she has. Even though when he leaves for work it's slipping a little -notice one of her straps has fallen off her shoulder and her hair has fallen out of it's perfect hold "flip" . She looks for any evidence she can to strengthen her argument with Don, anything she can find to force him to admit he's been a sleeze and she can't find anything. He comes in and finds her sitting on the bed, she's feeling defeated at not finding anything to fight him with and that dress is looking like a wad of crumpled paper.
When she awakens him while he's sleeping on the couch she's finally let go of some of this. She tells him she doesn't want to be the way they have been . You can tell that she's thought about this all night, she's decided that even though she still has no real closure on this she'll have to find a way to live in it. She's finally taken off the costume/perfect hostess dress. She's obvioulsy showered and washed away some of the broken-ness of it and is in that white robe. Clean slate? New beginning? She's washed her hair and while it's not pert it is also no longer looking like it was "whacked". out of it's perfection.
While she's not on solid ground she's moving toward pulling things back together to some semblance of order for herself. She puts on another perfectly correct ensemble with the requisite "Dippity-Do" flip, and has a perfectly correct dinner in the oven and then she sees Jimmie in the Utz commercial and everything she has managed to re-order during the day is shot to hell and because she had to handle all of those emotions on her own without benefit of her husband's respectful participation in their marriage, seeing Jimmy takes her right back to the night he told her everything and now it's even worse. A bomb goes off in dear Betty. She tells him to stay his ass away.
To those who don't feel Betty has a "real problem." Infidelity in a marriage can be a "real problem." I have been the victim of it, as I'm sure others have on this board, and it can be devastating. Yes, she is not dying, starving to death, homeless, etc., but the suffering caused by infidelity and deceit is REAL suffering.
Something happened to make Dick want to leave so badly that he was willing to switch identities to become Don. He is not a sociopath, but he is someone with some serious psychosocial issues, we just have no clue what or why. We know his family issues, that's all, but what happened to make things so horrible? And why does he feel the need to constantly start over with new women?? Besides it being the lifestyle of the time.
Now that someone says something (Betty) about it and he sees the consequences, what can we expect from Don?
Hey Visan- I love how you always keep it real. Betty is privleged and Don's cheating in the big picture isn't the end of the world, but I think January Jones did an excellent job of showing how in Betty's own mind the betrayal was very big and cut her to the bone. I did feel for her this time in a way I usually don't.
I knew you would be ready to take Don off her hands for her though! LOL! You'll be leaving the light on, right? Tee-hee-hee!:)
@JamieK: See, Betty not going into a store because she and Don are having a little tiff, that's an issue. But a woman not being able to enter a store because of her skin color, is a REAL problem that may be faced by her housekeeper!
I'm talking about some fake TV characters. And I really don't delve into posters' personal lives because I feel that's none of my business. I wish all who post here a lot of love and luck but I stay away from folks' personal business.
Re: Joan's poor shoulder, that's chafing -- exactly what her little office pet image has brought her to. Did you like how she asked her fiance if he wanted anything, and when he responded "water" she sat down obliviously? And she's on birth control folks, from the pilot -- 99.5% sure she's not knocked up.
@GemCat63: Didn't Don burn that stuff from his brother last season? Or is that a false memory?
Betty & Don are in surprisingly similar straits. Betty is watching the facade of her perfect life crumble around her, clinging to her "Pride" (furniture polish) & tending to her casserole while putting her hubby out for the night. Don can't look at himself in the mirror and is starting to realize that just saying something doesn't make it so. He's watching the carefully constructed pieces of his life come apart at the seams. I keep waiting for the hammer to drop: what is the terrible secret that keeps Don clinging to the lies that are so obvious to those around him?
I don't think Don is a sociopath. He is depressed and is a sex addict, I think. He seemed to feel obligated to succumb to Bobbi's advances even though, at least at first, he didn't seem to want her.
He has to be looking over his shoulder all the time because of his false identity. He wears a mask all the time, even at home. It's got to be stressful. He has built a very successful lifestyle and has a lot to lose. If he had no guilt, we would not see those guilty looks on his face so much. He would probably be smirking as he put something over on someone. Don feels guilt all right, but he gives in to temptation anyway. "You can't help yourself," as Betty says.
Don does have feelings and does feel like shit after he does what he does... and yet he does it anyway... Betty IS RIGHT... "you just can't help yourself"... because she knows what it's like to be caught up in "The Don Draper Effect"... she knows that Don's a guy that can literally get any thing that he wants, anyone he wants any time... that's what the girl in the bar was about... women LITERALLY walk up to him and make themselves available for him... the women in the train as he and the other officer were escorting the body of the real Don Draper was the beginning, the symbolic beginning of him being irresistable... well... that's got to be a dangerous quality to have for a married man with big business interests to safeguard... right as his career is peaking, his personal life is falling, the classic paradox of having it all...
the 1950s ethic of materialistic social giganticism begins turns inward and slowly festers... Roger's wife knows and lives through Roger being the glittering, rich prick with all his women and boozing social male exhibitionism but Don who's been weened on it now has to face living with a women who cross-generational... she finds suddenly she CAN'T be her mother, can't be Grace Kelly, and yet is still a guilded lilly with a dark side toating a smoke and an air rifle shooting at the neighbours pigeons... Don's finding out "the little lady" won't put up with what Roger Sterling dished out to his wife... now each has to decide what it means... how will they live with it OR what will they do about it?
P
MTE; I've watched that commercial so many times and have NEVER figured out what the heck the sponsers are trying to tell me. It is one of the most stupid spots I've ever seen. I have to admit it , though, It's always given me a really 'creepy' feeling...ick!
Silly me, I took Roger's comments about the "full-time position, $150/week, and he has to share an office" to mean that Harry was to hire Joan and "he has to share an office" was referring to the guy already working with Harry, who would share an office with Joan. They were talking about Joan, Harry acknowledged it was just Joan, and Roger mentioned the unsolicited calls from the clients. I'm so naiive!! DUH.
Thank you JamieK. She may not have a world crisis on her hands, but its HER problem. You can feel bad for others and what they're going through, but nothing compares to what you personally go through.
VISAN: I'm not trying to get started with you again, but what exactly do you find flakey about Betty? Be specific.
Up until now, what has she had to go on? He took her places, bought her furs, jewelry, etc. It seems to me she always felt the problem lied with her, so she tried to fix herself. Now she knows different. So I ask, what is so repulsive about her? Specifically?
The "new" guy is hired at $150.00 a week! I remember when Pete and his wife were shopping for their new apartment, Pete said he made only $35.00 a week! Have things changed that much in two years?
Visan, a little tiff? With all due respect, I am just dumbfounded at your description of this major crisis in the Draper marriage.
I thought Pete said he made $75.00 a week.
Well things have certainly been simmering all week for Betty. From the Monday Night out for Jimmy until the dinner on Saturday night at their home. I imagined that I heard Jimmy on the TV that the children were watching during the angry chair scene which was BEFORE the dinner. Betty just needed some small thing like the beer issue to reach her tipping point over the real issue - that being the Jimmy/Bobbi affair.
Did anybody else notice Joan's little girl voice back at the apartment with her fiance'?
How bout Campbell offering the beer to the Heiniken guys at 11 AM? For *Pete's Sake*
The group singing at this episode's conclusion is Peter, Paul and Mary. Their debut album "Peter, Paul and Mary" was released in 1962. I'll have to watch the end one more time to pick out which song it actually is.
Betty was courageous and unwavering. She repeatedly gave Don opportunities to be truthful. Don's life-long deep seated issues center on deception, conflict between intimacy and rejection and an inability to confront himself let alone answer to others for his actions. Tonight Betty started dismantling that facade. She has her own issues but showed depth and courage. The numerous other characters are consistently portrayed as being complex as well. Absolutely great writing and acting!
laVidaLol, PLEASE! How can you say that Betty has no steel? To another poster, Betty is going through a real problem. How much worse can it be than to find out your spouse is cheating?Yes, she has all the trappings of what most women think they might want, but she isn't happy. She needs real affection. Everyone does. By the way, the poster who mentioned Joan's future, I have lived it and it isn't fun. Doctors are never home, they are always on call and just to get a vacation once in every three years is a miracle. I say to Joan be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
I see several people have expressed disappointment that Joan - who was extremely competent - wasn't even considered for the job of Harry's assistant. That Joan deserves not just to be Harry's assistant, but that she actually deserves Harry's job. That hiring some presumably less competent man, and simply expecting Joan to help him do the job she was already doing highly successfully isn't fair, isn't nice, is an example of how women were mistreated, etc.
Maybe so.
But in fairness, has anyone stopped to consider that Joan doesn't appear to have said - to Harry or to Roger (as far as we can tell) - that she'd like the job?
Sure, she seemed to enjoy it. And - again - she was really good at it. But that doesn't automatically mean Harry, Roger, or whomever else was involved, should simply know that Joan wants to give up being the office manager, in order to take up this new and very different job as a permanent thing.
Contrast this to Peggy's behavior. Peggy broke into a "men only" job, but she did so in part by actively pursuing that as an objective. She made it crystal clear to all involved - and particularly to Don - that she wanted to be a copywriter. That this was what she desired, and that her efforts entitled her to the title.
Joan was far more passive. She never hinted to anyone that she wanted to change jobs at Sterling Cooper. That she was dissatisfied with her current position at the firm. That she was aspiring to more, or at least to different challenges.
Or, to look at it another way, tonight we saw Betty finally abandon silence and passivity. And we saw one of the the series' more seemingly self-confident, capable, and assertive female characters suffer, due (at least in part) to her failure to speak up for herself.
I don't want others to think I take infedelity lightly either. I too have been in Betty's shoes, only mine weren't designer. It was the beginning of the end of my first marriage and I had a child too. Humor has always been my best defense and it has aloud me to move on. I don't mean to offend.
It's all good now, and I later did meet a really great guy. We've been married almost 14 years now. I guess the scene where Betty sees Jimmy Barrett's Utz commercial, is like this show felt for those of you who still carry the pain of infedelity close. It's just a reminder of how it doesn't seem that it will ever go away. Take it from someone who has been there, it will eventually, but you have to work at it. Laughter helps.
JamieK
I think VISAN just has a thing against Betty solely because she likes Don and wants to do him, and blah, blah, blah. When you've been hurt by the person you love and your marriage may be in distress, thats just an issue???
People talk about Betty being cold, but that sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black.
Also, VISAN, you say that your just commenting on characters, but that cannot be when you site issues and problems that real people face. Many people on here are posting the own personal feelings. If you personally knew Betty or Don, are you saying that you wouldn't still have the same thoughts and perceptions of the "characters"?
@Swanky: You know I call it out! While Betty's at some swish soiree, people were being hit upside the head, trying to get the right to enter a voting booth. Gay folks couldn't even love other gay folks without risk of jail and/or mental institutions. Her problems are minimal compared to REAL legal barriers others faced!
Visan and hotcho: actually, you are both right. No pseudo-diplomacy here. . . . You are seriously both right! Totally different opinions that can't be reconciled but are both correct.
Harry (and all the other guys) are totally oblivious to Joan's value except as eye candy to them. It would never occur to any of them that Joan could - and would want to - do the job they're hiring a man to do. It's what sets Peggy's move out of the secretarial pool apart, but she's had to become "one of the guys" to blend in. The fact that Joan's expected to train her replacement goes without saying. They would have been dumbfounded had she even slightly demurred.
If I was Joan, I would tell Harry to find someone else to assist. He'll find out soon enough that the clients like HER. She have him in a pigeon hold and maybe can get what she wants!
*legal barriers others like her housekeeper, Carla, and Sal faced
Whoever mentioned 'gaslighting' being apt, seems not to have
ever seen Bergman (Ingrid, not Ingmar) and Charles Boyer in
"Gaslight" about a Victorian husband trying to drive his beautiful wife insane i.e. the term 'gaslighting'.
Check it out, great thriller.
Just a brief follow-up to my post of a couple of minutes ago -
Much of this assumes that Joan would have wanted a new job, as Harry's assistant. This is a huge assumption. I think, had Harry come right out and said to her, "Joan, you're fantastic at this stuff. I've gotten the go ahead to hire an assistant. If you want it, the job is yours," Joan might well have declined the offer.
She'd likely have appreciated the thought. And maybe thought well of Harry for recognizing her talent. But for all that she appeared to enjoy what she was doing, it's by no means clear that she'd choose to give up her job as office manager.
(And let's be real here, people - it would mean giving up her current position. Neither job is really a part-time thing. It's very much an either/or sort of choice.)
Betty isn't letting Don get away on this one. She wants to be more than a trophy wife to him. She also wants to be seen as the perfect wife, and the fact that he embarrasses her in front of their guests humiliates her. She tells him this and he does not understand until the next day meeting when Duck makes the comment about being the perfect wife. Don gets it then, and he realizes what she truly meant by her outburst. At the same time, he still can't commit to her.
Amazing! Betty actually grew a set and put Don in his place. It's about time, sweetheart. Can't wait to see what's next...perhaps an affair for Betty?
@ Hapynzap, Joan's voice was definitely weird, I thought at first it was the sound but then I realized she'd taken on a different persona, or rather dropped the front she takes at the office. It got a little less coquettish at the end though.
Campbell is such a douche. I don't understand why Don puts up with him -- or furthermore, when Pete's father dies he runs right into Don's office for consolation, after exposing him to Cooper? I lol'd at Don's "what the hell are you still doing here" shrug to get rid of him.
The first scene with Don in bed was first through the mirror, then cuts back straight on Don. Also, I noticed twice tonight that when Betty, then Don, come through their front door, there is another solid white door right outside the door they enter through. What is that? Almost looks like an apartment but is it a "vestibule"? Is that the word?
I also noticed how uncomfortable Father was as he was getting undressed. He looked almost relieved to take off his gear. Also Betty seemed to be back more towards 50's housewife dresses in this episode--intentional?
Visan,
Why do we need to "compare" problems and discount real pain felt by people as being trivial? You seem to be equating the pain caused by social injustice with the personal pain created by infidelity on the part of a beloved person thought to be one's life partner, perhaps the co-parent of one's children. It's like apples and oranges. Pain on both accounts is REAL. Also, does someone suffer less because he or she is well-off financially? Good-looking? I just don't understand indifference to suffering, whatever its cause.
Betty's pet name is Birdie....Bye Bye!!!
Ironic how in Season1 ("Indian Summer") Don scolded Betty for allowing the a/c salesman into "my (Don's) house". Now, Betty bans Don from the house--and he obeys! HA!
Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
The ragging horse scene with Betty immediately reminded me of Alfred Hitchcocks film "Marnie" a film made around this time. Both women are coming apart and married to complicated and some what animalistic men.
Why was that priest always in Peggy's grill? What is his intention? He creeps me out!
Joan sounded odd, like she was sucking on helium! Plus, her fiance was cute but a real asshat!
I'd like to see a backstory about Carla. The writers should follow her home one night so we can hear her spin on life @ the Drapers.
Michael w/ all of the numbers- Good point about Joan's lack of assertiveness. For a gal that likes to be the boss and is assertive w/ the ofice girls, she didn't really assert herself in this case.
It's also fitting that she had just recently said to Peggy, "I don't want to be in their world," but that once she gets the opportunity to see into their world she realizes that she really does like it.
She was just green w/ envy over Peggy.
NancyStowOH made a good comment on how Joan being just a fill in was really how it was usually done back then. I remember my mom telling me a story similar to this when she was a secretary. She was asked to fill in for a man's position while he was out for an extended period of time and still keep up with her other duties for no extra pay. (Notice Joan taking the work home) When the guy returned months later he picked up his old position and salary, that was more than double hers without skipping a beat. We have done a lot better since then.
The priest idea is going too far. I knew they were gonna develop his character more when they hired Colin Hanks to play the part. When he discovered she had a child he decided to help her, but his ways of going about it are strange and unprofessional. She was in her place of work, why would she mention her child there?? And to admit it was a sin and talk about it is not Peggy's thing. She is being forced to admit it when it will only cause pain. Same for Don I suppose.
visan, I agree that gays should have equal rights and women shouldn't be beaten up, and all people have the right to vote. {Go Obama} All of these are ligit concerns for all people, but they do not take away from other peoples real pain.
So am i the only person to notice MTE here in the conversation @11:19 has posted a foto of a chic in a Florida Seminoles cheerleading outfit with no panties on !! MadMen is a sexual show , but the crouch watch is really not needed here , is it ?
That was no 'charactor" January Jones was playing in tonight's episode...It was me. God, I could almost 'smell' the cedar of closet, the cologne from the suits, as she reach in each pocket searching for something, anything. This series could not be more real, more personal, more riveting. Mr. Wiener, could I have my diary back, please?
@ eric: OMG--you're right! I'm speechless.
Redhead: This is what I'm saying, if this season is all about women's suffering, then couldn't Carla, the housekeeper, be part of that story arc? She could give yet another different perspective. Just like Sheila could, who's younger.
The experiences of women of color--Black, Asian, Latina--ARE women's stories. I just find it would be remiss not to include that! Just sayin'!
@vizan, for me the absolute strongest point of this show is understatement. What better time to frame these characters with these (admittedly navel-gazing) problems than against a historical background of one of the most tumultous times in American history. The presidency of JFK is going to see the rise of MLK and Malcolm X, the Bay of Pigs, and folks like Timothy Leary and Ken Kesey making headlines. Sterling Cooper is about appearances and desires. It's the opposite of reality, much like the lives of most of its employees.
Visan: I so much want to the writers to present us with the perspectives of the people "from the other side of the tracks". I have no doubt that their stories are very painful and need to be told. Carla especially intrigues me.
That MTE poster is a freak-how lame is it to get your freak on the MM message boards?! So utterly stupid.
I was stunned that Joan didn't say anything. But , be fore warned Joan isn't stupid and the episodes are merely glimpes of a work moment in a day. I can see Joan working her way back into that role of working in the TV deptment. Or maybe Jane ( Drapers Sec. ) has a spot working with Roger , perhaps getting the youths opinion on a product in the Future.
Either way it's a great show , slightly tame ... tonight would have been a great opportunity for Betty to Welcome Don home with a left uppercut verse a phone call !
Visan: I so much want to the writers to present us with the perspectives of the people "from the other side of the tracks". I have no doubt that their stories are very painful and need to be told. Carla especially intrigues me.
That MTE poster is a freak-how lame is it to get your freak on the MM message boards?! So utterly stupid.
Watching Betty during the dinner party I had this sudden flash of a young Martha Stewart. Anyone else see Betty heading in that type of direction?
I used to cater in a wealthy area and when the women got divorced they all became either interior decorators, caterers or real estate agents.
No, I'm not like Jimmy 2 times from Goodfellas.
I'm wondering how this show, if it jumps to 1964 next season, will tackle JFK's killing and racist terror bombings (both occurred in 1963). What are the SC folks going to do when these things occur? They can't just go around, lighting up ciggies when JFK is shot! Reality of a larger world will soon have to set in for some of the SC dumb-asses!
Presently its 1962 , so a lot is going to be happening as pointed out here. Protests, lots of Pot smoking, Perhaps Betty will be stepping out or in with another ...
Visan, it would be great to see the housekeeper, Carla, be more fully developed. We could also see more of Paul and his black girlfriend. I think people of color are not more fully represented in the show because the races were so separated during that time period. It may be a while before Sterling Cooper hires a black employee. Those were just the times, but that will change in the future on the show as it did in real life.
Was I the only one that noticed that the continuity was flawed in this episode? The first shot of the dining room table included the kitchen chair (her seat... to substitute for the broken one), then the next shots included the usual arm chair.
In response to the blog below... the word was not Crack. I think it was Crane -or something like that.
JOAN:
i'm shocked that Joan did not speak-up for herself... I know it was necessary to show a different side of her, but it's just a little shocking. I think her bra strap moment was maybe an introduction to the character starting to hate what she's known for and wish that she could be seen in another light -perhaps she will opt. for a breast reduction (maybe the first in history?) just to be taken seriously in her career. Also, why did i get the impression that neither her nor the dr. actually "love" each other? they may not ever get married.
BETTY:
I understand what they were trying to do w/her role tonight, but it seemed like a big stretch. in those days, a girl like betty would never confront a man like Don that way... she would worry that she has too much to loose. Nevertheless, her acting was Excellent as uaual and I can't wait to see if she ever let's him back in.
Funny, during the entire show, I thought betty was going to go to Bobbie just to get her ans. through reading Bobbie's eyes.
PEGGY:
"Interesting"! I'm always amazed how she decides to handle certain matters. On one hand, she has no problem saying "No", but on the other hand, she can't seem to ever say "No" when it's for her own good. I hope they're not running out of juicy stuff for her character.
DON:
I love him and he does NO WRONG! Although he is a cocky, lying, cheating-bastard, it's the "Bad Boy" that makes him the man all men want to be and the man all women want (including Betty). I would have been disappointed if he had wimped out and told her the truth. as we all know... "You Never Do That" unless there is real evidence :-). not to mention the fact he has to protect Bobbie.
STERLING:
He would never have allowed Joan to be promoted, because he likes to have her where she is -beneath him (literally). He (nor the other guy) ever really considered her because she is seen as "the sex potl" and unless she speaks up, it's Hopeless.
Ok, I think that's all the thoughts I have -can't wait for nxt week.
Cheers!
Predictions:
1) Betty will have an affair of her own.
2)Duck will commit suicide.
3)Roger will sabotage Joan's engagement.
4)Sal and Cosgrove will have a gay affair.
5)Don will beat up the comedian Barret.
6)The priest will be found to be a pedophile.
7)Peter will find out about the baby.
As for Peggy she just keeps Strolling along ... and everything perhaps is building up or maybe she just lets it go. I'd like to see her start running the office and team up with Salavodore(sp) and driving clients in ... maybe this church poster pro-bono will develope into something.
I think the point the show actually makes through its secondary inclusion of those 'background' African American (and arguably) ethnic Americans is that in that time, among most Anglo Whites, those people virtually didn't exist and pretty much were in the background as silent observers. I actually relish the little asides of the black characters that pass in and out of the scenes as extras. Sometimes I feel like you could argue the same point now. The ad world of today is certainly still sparsely populated with non-white faces.
As a black Latino, just hearing stories my dad told me about being an immigrant teen from the Dominican Republic in 60s New York, it's obvious that New York treated its people of color like an invisible herd. I would love to see black and non-white actors get some more lines on the show, but I honestly like the idea of how the show actually puts more of a microscope on the myopic world of WASP whites at that time. I think in a lot of way the show examines what was problematic about their values (and the reinforcement of them via Madison Avenue) and how they basically have brought us to these lunatic times today.
I actually think that some changes are in the wings regarding this anyway: The major cultural waves that will forever change American society are imminent. Cuba has already been alluded to. JFK hasn't died yet. The rise of civil rights has not swept in yet. Give it some time.
@eric - it's always the freebies that end up being the biggest pain in the ass.
To jacklq:
". . . it's the 'Bad Boy' that makes [Don] the man all men want to be and the man all women want."
Give me a break! To say that all women want a "bad boy" is absurd!
Does anyone know the name of the song the priest was singing at the end of the show or if you can buy it on itunes?
The Priest was playing the Pedophile song
The priest character may be there to prod Peggy. She is very reserved and keeps her own counsel. If no one prods her, she's just going to keep everything in and say nothing as usual. He does seem attracted to her, though. She doesn't seem to reciprocate.
In response to Blogger: GuySmiley on September 15, 2008 1:36 AM...
That is EXACTLY the way it was back then and in many homes/communities today -Trust Me!
So, unless the show lasts long enough to come into the late '70's or early '80's, they won't ever have lines. SAD, but True!
Did anyone notice Peggy's body language when the priest was leaving her office? She had her hands clasped over her stomach, protecting her secret.
Speaking of the closing song (search the thread for Peter, Paul and Mary), I enjoy the music at the end of most episodes (last week: Break It To Me Gently). It's like waking up from a nice dream, or coming out of a trance. However I just about jumped out of my skin this week.
To JamieK on September 15, 2008 1:39 AM...
it's obvious you've never had one "In Bed"! LOL... i'm just joking, but seriously -it's what has made him the Star of the show. Do you think it's for any other reason? it's in the title :-).
Someone in the office will be fired.
Duck might be killed , lost in a boating adventure or hunting accident.
Cranes wife looses the baby. Peggy starts dating an OLDER man. Peggy may run into betty one day and they have lunch, But Peggy will be Mum. Salvatore quietly yearns for Cosgrove.
Jane the girl ... Hhmm starts rumors about Joans age , which will be the second time mentioned in the office. Don will be blond sided as his Past of the REAL Don Draper starts seeping thru the cracks. And it was " Crane , you smoke ? " not crack.
To jacklq:
No one was a bigger "bad boy" than my first husband! The problem is that you do have to get out of bed!
Hey jacklq, I believe you! I don't doubt that for a second.
I've known white people who told me that they never thought black people could be intelligent, or even that black women could be beautiful until they saw the likes of Diahann Carroll as Julia or even Diana Ross and the Supremes on TV, and I don't even think those images hit the airwaves until '64 and up.
I mean, thinking about how the Puerto Rican Young Lions campaigned against garbage dumping in NYC's Latino neighborhoods in the late '60s, I can't imagine that the city or most white people cared.
* * * *
The great thing this show does is remove us from our comfortable delusions about how upstanding we are as Americans. I think those delusions have been often manipulated for us by the media and advertising. The show talks so much about that. So instead of facing our problems, we believe in this visage of the happy group with the token black friend, laughing in the convertible and popping Pringles in their mouths, all thin and fit in the sunshine and we're thinking--"Yeah! America rocks! No problems here!"
America does rock. I love America and I love being an American. I hate hate hate those Europeans who pedanticly chide us as "you Americans".
But y'all, America has problems. We get so shocked and surprised when something crazy happens here, or how crazy our society has become, and we have to face the truth about ourselves. The show so far has been fabulous for encouraging that.
the song is called early in the morning by peter paul and mary, i'm only 24 and i knew that!
Visan, I do hear what you're saying, but I'd point out that by 1964, JFK's death was not something that the typical person thought about all that much or all that deeply. Nor did it have any huge effect on most work places.
This is not to diminish the JFK assassination's historical significance. Or to deny the fact that immediately after the event, most people did devote considerable thought to it.
It's just that after a few months, it became, for the most part, and for most people and businesses, very much a thing of the past. People who went around lighting up ciggies while JFK was alive, pretty much went on lighting up ciggies in 1964.
There's really no need for the writers to "tackle" the event. To make note of it, fine. But unless an episode were set in late November 1963, it's just not an event that was profound and integral to the average person's life beyond a brief period when it was still fresh, and people were still in shock over it.
If you watch the tv shows (drama, comedy, other) that were actually filmed and initially aired in 1964, you'll find that few of them paid more than passing mention, if that, to JFK's assassination.
As for racist terror bombings, these simply weren't in the forefront of most New Yorker's minds at the time. If a bombing happened to be reported on the front page of the Times that day, they'd perhaps read it. But it's probably fair to say that for most of the characters in Mad Men, theses events existed only at the far edges of their daily awareness, and often not even there.
I agree that if Mad Men were a series primarily about the social unrest of the 1960s, or the various liberation movements (women, homosexual, black, etc.) of that era, one might reasonably expect to see these things prominently featured in episode after episode. But this is essentially a series about a Madison Ave. advertising firm, the white people working there, and their friends and families. (And at that, it's mostly about the white collar employees at that firm.) To portray more than a small percentage of these people as having been regularly and meaningfully involved in most of the more transformative societal movements of era is to present the audience with a view through a highly distortive lens.
And while it might be perfectly valid to create a tv series that so skews the characters' perspectives from what they would, in reality, have been, Mad Men is not such a tv series, nor does it claim to be.
Predictions:
Duck is now single and will get into an unwise relationship--perhaps with Betty. He seemed to notice her appreciatively tonight.
Peggy will lose patience with the priest.
Betty will get involved unwisely on the rebound if she doesn't cave and let Don move back in.
Sal and Cosgrove will not get involved romantically. Maybe Cosgrove will get involved, and Sal will get jealous.
The clients of tonight will insist on Joan and not the new guy.
I just can't see Joan actually marrying that doctor.
The locker room comments men made toward women back then were degrading to be sure. But even if you didn't agree with making such comments I bet that many men still made them in order to be seen as one of the boys. One only has to remember the popular book "The Man In The Grey Flannel Suit" to understand that they too could be trapped into little boxes of societies expectations.
I would really like to see Bert Cooper get involved with some young ambitious woman who makes all the employees nervous. Is he married? They could be worried she would take over. Bert could be gaga over her. That would be interesting.
The song sang is "Early in the Morning " by Peter Paul & Mary.
Every week I am amazed at the depth of each scene. It was great to see that Joan reveal her desires to be more, I always thought that she was proud/jealous of Peggy for wanting to be more than she was. All of these women are in turmoil, it will be interesting to see how they evolve!
JamieK : Cooper might be to old for a wife Or perhaps has one and She hasn't been seen. Better yet he has a daughter in college, who after graduating comes to work in the office and is really loose Free love Free Thinking an early womans Liber , a real flower child with a mout and a brain / body combo scaring the men and shaking up the women or the office.
I liked that the poster for the last CYO dance was a bunch of girls skipping around a maypole.
This show is so good. I wish it were on for 90 minutes instead of 60.
Eric, too old for a wife? Any old guy can find a wife if he's rich enough. (Think of Anna Nicole Smith and her elderly millionaire husband.) But, yes, a daughter would work too if she threatened to rock the good-old-boys boat at SC. If she is open to "free love," she would certainly have Roger to contend with. Wonder what that would do to the partnership.
I'm talking about the odd ball daughter Janis Jolin , Lenny Bruce female type a real out spoken Bitch that hates progress and is burning her bra as she wears it to the office.
I'm talking about the odd ball daughter Janis Joplin , Lenny Bruce female type a real out spoken Bitch that hates progress and is burning her bra as she wears it to the office.
As for free love . We all remember when Cooper called Don in because the department store client " the Father " was asking about his account and having Don on it with his Daughter. Well of boy Don was on her Quick free Love ... doing the Client after the meetings.
First things first, THANKS AMC FOR SENDING ME A HAT! You're the first talkback forum - in my decade of posting on forums - that's actually sent me a gift for my opinion. Thank you very much! And I got it rather quickly. Thanks.
WOW! Everyone got run through the ringer in this episode, didn't they?
Can I just say, seeing Betty in her dress for 2 days reminds me of some of the fights my parents used to have where everything was a completely mess for days until someone just got tired of it and cleaned up.
My heart ached for Joan for not getting the job in the television division. It was probably the first time in years she's actually gotten some satisfaction from work. She was so happy doing it. I hope she stands her ground and asks to do the job later on.
Don, what a liar you are!
Good for Betty for telling him to not come home. I was cheering for her.
Father Gil needs to let it go.
I hope Peggy can stand her ground as well.
I'm very excited for next week. I wonder if this is the "showdown" we're supposed to get between Pete and Peggy. I hope Peggy has a frying pan handy.
I think that the mentions about Joan not setting the table, forgetting the water for her guy and the rubbing of the shoulder w/the bra (brests getting bugger) are her being pregnant. You are forgetful when you are pregnant and they dont seem to really love each other. so maybe it is a marriage of convienence?
I said it when I saw the Jimmy Kimmel show, Joan looks pregnant in real life. Her loose black dress and thick legs. So, they would work it into the show.
Kudos to Betty for putting a hammer to Don's perfect family picture by denying him entry back into it - 'bout time, Betty!
What I've noticed about Don when challenged or confronted in one of his myriad lies, is that Don's quick to respond with the pat, smooth answer, but when his accuser is right and won't break eye contact, Don always strolls away........coward! And he resorted to the traditional response from a manipulative controller - trying to turn the tables on Betty with the "have you been drinking? You have a problem, etc". Finally, Betty didn't back down but had the courage of her suspicions to face them.
For any of those out there who don't think Betty's suffering - you're nuts. It's called a broken heart, folks. It's not about the perfect home, the $$, the beautiful husband. It's about finding out that you're not really loved in any kind of good way and that you bought into a lot ideas (about love, marriage, home) that have just disintegrated before your eyes. When you've lost everything that you built a life on, well, if that doesn't break your heart, and isn't heartbreaking, I don't what is. It's the death of your life as you were living it on several planes (emotional, intellectual, social). Who wouldn't be crazed and despairing?
Also, for Betty, what Don can beat her with in court are her psychiatrist visits and the nightgown/BB gun incident. Not exactly stellar examples of Betty's mental competency (for the era).
who will betty marry next the horse riding college student...the soon to be divorced comedian.... or the couple she is planning to spend the weekend with.....next two episode[s]? lol
When Betty was sniffing in the closet, I was reminded of the infamous Devine and the John Water's movie with "smell-o-rama". What was the movie?
Did anyone else catch the line from Crab Cowan (Don's dinner guest, from the Rogers & Cowan company?) to Duck Phillips: "you should come to Rogers & Cowan sometime, it's pretty nice over there?" or something like that. It was said in passing to Duck, but I got the impression it was a VERY subtle invitation to join his company.....another advertising firm?
At the final scene where Don was drinking his beer I thought for one moment he was in Peggy's apartment. She is who he turned to before when he needed rescuing..just a thought.
Yes Jamm54,
I noticed that and another comment was said like, "he's ready..." re: Duck.
Yay! My favorite sleazy man is back! (I'm sorry everyone I know he's awful but I loves me some Petey! =P) lolz
Also, I know I wasn't the only one saying "You go girl!" to the tv when betty finally stood up to Don and kicked his cheating ass out! Lolz
And I felt horrible for Joan, you could tell how upset she was when Harry "replaced" her. She deserves to have his job. Keep on keepin on Joanie baby! =P
What's so sad about Betty, is that I really feel Betty loved Don, was really in love with Don, and that's why she been almost crazed about the infidelity. Who wouldn't be if you were very much in love with your husband or significant other? I know I'd be going absolutely crazy. I actually thought she was going to get him on the couch with a knife or a frying pan, because it was almost scary watching Betty - like she was in an out-of-body experience.
Congratulations January Jones - if "A Night to Remember" doesn't snag a 2008 emmy nomination for her next year, I'll be dumbfounded.
@Nora: Who said "he's ready" and to whom? Was that at the dinner party?
Anyway, that clued me in that maybe Duck Phillips is a one season wonder.
Very satisfying episode, all around.
I did feel sorry for Joan regarding losing the opportunity to be the new Broadcast Operations scriptreader. Someone earlier on this talk said that Peggy went after her promotion - no she didn't. Freddy Rumsen opened that door for Peggy and threw the Belle Jolie assignment in her lap, and then Don did it again with the Relaxicisor. Both times because THEY spotted Peggy's natural talent, not because Peggy knew she had it prior and was trying to "advance" her ability. Once Peggy got a taste of it, of course, she wanted to go further.
Why can't that happen for Joan? I hope it does. The difference is I don't think it's ever occured to Joan to be "interested" or "mentally challenged" by work, but once she got a taste for it, yeah, she liked it alot. So, I hope she gets her shot, too.
I started watching this show, when I caught all the first season in a marathon and have looked forward to it, ever since. Tonight's show was the best yet. It really delved into the female characters feelings. I think this is the best show on TV, right now. So subtle and under stated, while incorporating many divergent themes. I am intrigued by the double standard, women had to live by, the men's callousness and chauvinism. The women are marginalized but are actually more intelligent and sensitive than the men. I would say more mature but that is not always the case. This underlines the theme of how society's values were hypocritcal at this time. Women are trying to make it a world run by men, who define life as being successful, affording material possession, thus status.
i agree male sexual ego[s] [normally] suck....if they don`t mature through puberty....gracefully.....temptation...and poor examples of idols being partly the reason...but come on....who has never looked at another great looking or acting person and not had the ever brief thought of [what if]...in a perfect world pain worries death would not ...change the adjustments we all make in this simple yet; [choice wise] sometimes complicated life....i have a pure heart towards loving 1 mate until....change,,, takes its course [hypothetically] S W M lol... YET THE POWERS THAT BE MANIPULATE US ALL TOWARDS COMPROMISE[S] that , we often would rather do without....mad men [to me].... is just another extention of the Garden of Eden... the curse firstly having the awareness of good and evil....then choosing right or wrong as a norm...
One last comment about Joan. With the possibility of Joan working in some variation of advertising (other than secretarial), don't you think Joan will give Peggy a run for her money? Joan knows how to use her "womanly assets" in business as we could all see in her interactions with the clients. She has thing or to she can show Peggy besides the kama sutra tricks in the boudoir.
Joan knows how she fits in and his willing to take on tasks to make things run smoothly. She does not compete on the level of the men,directly. That is why she shoots daggers with a single look, all the while maintaining decorum, when she is taken off the script reading assignment. She has management skills but is not given credit by any of the men.
Joan knows there is a 'glass ceiling' and does not want to try to break into management as a man. She would rather persue the dream of marriage to the right man, who is at that level.
As much as I love this show and feel like the characters are real, at the same time I never forget that there are some incredibly talented writers behind everything that happens. In other words, there is a reason for every storyline; it ain't like real life where stuff "just happens."
Case in point: Joan and her foray into Broadcast Operations
Even though you may or may not believe that Joan would want to work in this new position permanently, the writers have made it clear that she enjoys her new responsibilities and is disappointed when she is replaced without warning. This is obvious in her less-than-helpful instructions to the new guy and if you ask me, not really a matter for debate.
Now, we can speculate on what this is going to mean for Joan in the future and we can also speculate on why Harry cut her loose so quickly (Roger had no clue about Joan until he had already made up his mind to create the position permanently.) As for her immediate reaction, it was plain as day and I believe we are meant to assume that she would have been happy to get the position herself instead.
To me the Joan storyline fit cleverly into what I thought was one the main themes of Episode 8: How the men in women's lives have expectations about them and how they are often contrary to how these women really see themselves, and yet they often feel that they have to live up to the expectations anyway.
By the way, how come it took everyone so long to notice that mte's avatar is pornographic? Some of you actually responded to the post, what's up with that? When I first read the post, I thought, "What the hell does this have to do with Mad Men?" Then I got a closer look at the picture and thought, "Wow, that's inappropriate." So I went to check out his other posts and this guy posted the same thing on a previous thread, so can we get this loser banned from our forum?
@Jonathan: I think you can email Clayton Neuman@amctv.com to complain or some such address. Clayton is the moderator on the talk forum.
I couldn't tell what the picture was until I looked at the profile, and even then, I thought "is that what I think it is"? Jeesh, people have to be pretty desperate for attention if they have to post on a public forum in that manner! LOL
As for Joan, this experience in Broadcast Operations may have opened up a whole different line of thinking for her. I don't Joan's looking for management, but she had a chance to discover a type of work that really grabbed her attention and interest. I bet Harry Crane will be clamoring for her services in the not to distant future, after we got a look at the boob he permanently hired to fill the position. Besides, the doctor is about as exciting as a wet dishrag.
Several comments: talking about free love-NOT in '62. The "sixties" started in '67 in that context, not this early.
I LOVE the use of real products in this show (and real ad agency's names) makes it much more real. Who has not thought of the Kodak Carosel differently since Don's pitch for the account?
Joan...oh how to start..OF COURSE there was not a moment wasted in thinking of moving her into the new spot. She is JUST A GIRL! "She would not want the responsibility of a job like that" Let me tell you that the OWM's club is still alive and well in business (Old White Men). Now it is less evident, (like discrimination due to color, age etc) but oh yes it is still there for all these groups. Also did anyone notice that for once she did not wear her power icon-the pencil necklace?
In 1976 I was the first female hired into a well known company as one of their 16 outside sales representatives. When attending the National Sales Meeting we reps were given a welcoming gift. For the first 3 meetings I received #1) a necktie with company logo #2) a man's polo shirt with co logo #3) a shave kit! That was in 76-77. I just didn't fit the image, I was a girl. I finally made such a joke about it for the whole meeting that they did come up with gender-nutural gifts for future meetings.
I still have a copy of the LA Times HELP WANTED section from the mid 60's-first is MEN's job, then the next section is WOMEN's jobs. You can imagine the difference in the jobs and salary's offered between these two catagories. Don't know when that was changed.
And BETTY-was a golden child, she was the High School cheerleader, went to college 1 or 2 years, modeled some, met Don on his way up and grabbed the golden ring - pun intended. Why do u think valuim became the top-seller of those days. Betty had reached her True Womanhood status. Look how the wives talked about the new neighbor, from last season, who was a divorced woman. She was a threat to all of the "happily" married women in Conn. She would come after their men (i.e. their jobs) and she was to be pietied and shunned.
No one has commented about all these men talking about how and why women buy. They are correct on many levels but that was Peggy's foot in the door..she was an actual woman. And she was not playing the "find a husband game" and so was looked at differently when asked her opinion. But still she is on the outside when decisions are made at the bar after work.
Re: my comment that a main theme of Episode 8 was how men's expectations about women is often contrary etc. etc.
I guess I should have said that this is a main theme of Mad Men in general, but that "A Night to Remember" really brings home that theme. Specifically:
1) Father Gil assumes that Peggy will not only cheerfully help him with the "advertising" for the dance but that she will also respond the way he wants to his clumsy and heavyhanded attempts to draw out her confession.
2) Harry figures Joan would never want to be a permanent fixture in his TV dept and would prefer to return to her role as office manager/queen bee.
3) Joan's fiance assumed that she's getting married to him so she won't have to work anymore, because doesn't every woman really just want to sit in front of the TV all day watching soap operas and eating bon-bons?
And last but not least,
4) Don thinks that Betty will want to keep their marriage together and figures that his statement about loving their children will make her think twice about leaving him and that she will be worried about public appearance as well. He is stunned to realize that her feelings of hurt, betrayal, and humiliation are much stronger than her desire to maintain the facade of a perfect marriage. Of course, it didn't help that he lied right to her face when she gave him the perfect opportunity to own up to the affair. I think Betty feels that his dishonest denials are even worse than the cheating. Wouldn't many of us feel the same way?
This show just keeps getting better and better.
I finally felt sorry for Joan. She discovers that she enjoys reading the scripts, and has insightful points to make to the clients, has Crane agree with her, and then has to step aside so a man can get the job she didn't even realize that she wanted, until it was taken from her.
I think Joan is now starting to question if she really is that smart to let men treat her as an object to be fantasized about, and not as a woman who has an intelligent point of view, like Peggy.
As for Betty, seeing her in the same dress without make up at the breakfast table was an amazing scene.
The Utz commercial setting her off was genius. Just when she had reconciled herself to carrying on with the marriage to Don. Jimmy's commercial plays.
The Peggy storyline is coming to a full boil. I can see that Peggy is wrapped so tightly, that when she has the blow out, it will be a truly spectacular show.
I love how this show doesn't pull any punches, and doesn't blink.
The Father singing at the end was a perfect capper.
In the Utz commercial, it was the last line "I'm not crazy" and something else, but the wink from the mascot. Boy, do they know how to use the visuals on this show to hit it home!
I really can't imagine what Betty will do. I don't know what someone would do in her position with a spouse like that. It's very hard to understand WHY or WHAT it is about Don that she loved. Of course, I can't figure out what Peggy ever saw in Pete, so......gotta go back to that old standby, love is blind.
For all the music lovers -- here's tonight's song:
EARLY IN THE MORNING
Paul Stookey ©Pepamar Music Corp.- ASCAP
Well early in the morning, about the break of day,
I ask the Lord, "Help me find the way!"
Help me find the way to the promised land
This lonely body needs a helping hand
I ask the Lord to help me please find the way.
When the new day's a dawning, I bow my head in prayer.
I pray to the Lord, "Won't you lead me there?"
Won't you guide me safely to the Golden Stair?
Won't you let this body your burden share?
I pray to the Lord, "Won't you lead me please, lead me there?"
When the judgment comes to find the world in shame
When the trumpet blows won't you call my name?
When the thunder rolls and the heavens rain
When the sun turns black, never shine again
When the trumpet blows, won't you call me please, call my name!
1962 - Peter Paul & Mary as mentioned by several people above. Great choice for this episode. The times they are a changin' and the oppressed are waking up.
The show gets increasingly feminist. The final shots of those three great woman revving up for change is chilling. The singing Priest anticipates that thrust into the 60's, too. Betty has resisted seduction at least three times, and is really the perfect wife, not only stunning but with great strength of character. That is becoming evident now. She is every match for Don - so good luck to him. Reality check is an understatement. He needs her more than he can imagine.
Guys - watch out this show puts us on our heals.
I think Madman is out doing the Sopranos for complexity and overall brilliance. I feel like crying at the end of every episode. The best acting ensemble bar none.
Yikes, I've tried and I've tried but I finally have got to give up on this season of Mad Men. The pathos, the sadness, the let me blow my brains out depression. Screw it, I'm outta here. When the fun returns and Roger's riding a couple to twins and Don's giving amazing pitches to Kodak I'll return until then screw it.
To me, this episode is about punishment. Or maybe cruelty from people who care.
Betty doesn't KNOW about Don and Bobbi -- she thinks she knows, but she's making herself crazy because she can't find any evidence of it. Anyone who would believe what that vicious Barrett says needs her head examined. So she punishes Don on general principle, knowing that even if he's not guity of THIS, he's guilty. She says she "doesn't want it to be like this," but she needs to punish him, and it's not rational. I don't see this as particularly heroic on Betty's part... understandable, but certainly not a blow for women's liberation.
Roger gives Harry the OK to hire a junior because Joan's doing a good job, and just like overruling her when she fired Don's secretary (last week), he's punishing Joan for leaving him. I really dislike this petty assholery from Rog... he's better as a thoughtless frat boy.
As for Harry, what a dumbass. I hope that new kid hoses him royally, so he realizes what a gem he had in Joan. I suspect Joan will be back in the Television Department...
And alas... Poor Peggy and Fr. Gill. He really, really wants her to come clean and do penance about this illegitimate baby business. She most likely views this as persecution, but indeed, confession might be useful. He's going to keep after her on this. (Better that Peggy confess to Fr. Gill, rather than to Pete.)
@Dennis: It's a damn shame you've given up because you bring so much fun to this blog!
is father gill one of the founders of the "guitar mass" movement? I remember in the early 70s some catholic churches started those to attract young people.
also, as a further demonstration of how men of all types were insensitive to women, father gill had some nerve bringing up a private matter like the need to confess and secret sin, while peggy is in her workplace. how dare he! he thought more of his agenda of getting her to spill the beans in the confeesional bout her adultery and pregnancy, that her need to maintain her office decorum. he didn't care that she could get so upset at the office, perhaps break down in front of co-workers, jeopardize her position and livelihood.
The point I was attempting to make, with regards to the occurences of a larger world than SC and its workers, is that these social facts will start to creep into the SC offices. The Youth Movement, with Mr. & Mr. Smith, is an example of that already making in roads. It's understood that SC is portrayed as a rather antiquated agency, so change for them probably wouldn't occur 'til the 1990s at the rate the place was going.
Although the stories of Joan, Peggy and Betty are compelling, for purely my own lack of attention span and tendency to get easliy bored, I'd love to see the lives of other female characters. The resistance to watch that by some viewers is blowing my mind, frankly!
Wow! This has to be the longest thread right after an episode so far!!
I'm still reeling from last night's show.
Thanks to the posters who confirmed my guess about the Peter, Paul and Mary song...it sounded like them.
I was very disappointed about Joan's replacement in the TV division also. But, as I said way up in the beginning of this thread, this isn't the end for her. Did you see the reaction from the ad guys she met with with Harry? I have a feeling unless Joan is put back in that spot, they'll pull out of SC.
Just as an aside, did anyone notice Joan didn't have her "pen" necklace on at all last night? Maybe that is a sign of what is to come for Joan.
After seeing her with her fiance, I don't think Joan will get married. There is no fire there. Resident MD in training wants her home, watching soaps, eating bon bons. I didn't like the kind of backhanded compliments he was giving her either.
I believe he said something about men wanting to look at her, and that she shouldn't be reading about the soap opera when she can be watching it on TV (like reading would hurt her pretty brain!)
I think Joan will chose career over marriage.
@60sChild: I didn't see any "heat" either with the MD and Joan. He was OK-looking but another dud!
I have to agree with Pete's Blue Pajamas.....I am SO SICK of that homely guy in the chemistry,com commercial....now if he looked like Don, well......
I definitely think Joan has been influenced by Peggy's promotion at SC. Now that she's getting a little older, she's starting to realize that being the office sex symbol is not enough. I really hope that she gets the TV job for which she is clearly qualified, but I agree with the above poster who said that she has to ASK FOR IT! I really don't think Harry ever assumed she would be interested in it. The doctor is trying to turn her into a Stepford wife -- it ain't gonna work.
Go, Betty!! I sat up at the edge of my seat when she confronted Don! Way to go, girl!
Duck has noticed Betty. "She's a peach of a girl." I wonder if something could transpire there. Duck is really missing having a family life. It was so touching to see him at Don's house -- "my date cancelled. I didn't want to come stag." I'm starting to really like Duck, now that we've seen more of him. He's really been chastened and humbled by his life's experiences. It's time for him to meet a good woman and start Chapter Two. He's where Don will be in 10 years -- divorced, kids indifferent to him, on the wagon, trying to rebuild his career.
Funniest line: Roger: "Crab, Duck. Duck, Crab." I laughed out loud! Classic Roger.
My prediction: Betty is pregnant and wants to have an abortion.
It just gets better and better!
Father Gill is getting on my nerves! Give it a rest! Did priests really have the right to pry into the private lives of their parishoners against their will?
Is he just being nosy? Maybe he's romantically interested in Peggy, but she seems pretty blase about him (as a man).
@Gail: There's something very creepy about Fr. Gill! Why on Earth is he wanting Peggy to "confess" at her workplace? And why is he always in Peggy's grill to begin with?
I can't help but think that if Peggy and Joan had been born 30 years later and Mad Men were taking place now, the firm would be named Holloway-Olsen, not Sterling-Cooper!
I want to see what's cooking over at Carla's. I want to find out more about her family - is she married? Have kids? What does she really think of the Drapers? I think we'll see more of her as the series moves forward -- hope so.
A few observations - I thought this episode was great. After really disliking Joan, I actually felt sorry for her. After being so competent with her new duties, to have a guy come in and take it away from her just like that. Of course she will be on hand to help him if he needs it! Then we see that she has those bra straps digging into her shoulders. I think we saw the more human side of her. I wonder if she is pregnant though? She justs seems to get bigger and bigger. Betty breaking up that chair was really a bizarre scene! She looked like a zombie when she was doing it. The kids just looked at her like she was nuts. I felt sorry for Don when Betty told him not to come home that night. He must be a sexaholic to want his family so much but not be able to control himself. Father whats his name annoys me too. They can get rid of him quick as far as I am concerned. Leave Peggy alone, she's got enough on her mind!
Father Gill is close to compromising the seal of confession by trying to get Pegy to open up about something he knows through her sister's confession. He should be careful. But he has his own issues; he was glad to get out of his clerics at the end of the day and cut lose with the Peter Paul and Mary song on the guitar. There are hints he could be on a trajectory such that by the end of the 60s, he will either be an activist priest working in the inner city in street clothes and protesting the war a la the Berrigan Brothers or will leave the Church entirely; fully joining the counterculture.
In response to the questions about the song: It's by Peter, Paul and Mary, and I think the name of the album it's from is "Moving." I don't know the name of the specific song, but I have the album at home (I'm at work now) and can find out and post again. The album is from that time period. I used to sing that song in 1962 while ironing in the basement, so I know all the words and the parts.
It was Peter, Paul and Mary singing at the end I think. I also remember seeing and tasting Heinekin beer for the first time - probably 1967 though because I was too young to be tasting it earlier than that - lived in a border town so most beer i tasted (from parents parties) was Canadian.
And I agree, I can't stand any of the ads - they are so shabby next to Mad Men's perfection.
Are you kidding? Some priests LOVE sinners! that's their mission, to bring them back to the fold - I know I was considered somewhat iffy and there was one smarmy priest concerned with my salvation - ick -
I can't see Don going anywhere but down though I do hope he gets some help sobering up from Duck -
exactly gail. i don't think a traditional priest in the early 60s would have even gone to the workplace of a parishioner, must less sit down deskside and try to get her to admit she needs to confess secret sin and start taking communion again. it's too modern an approach, too forced and intrusive.
visan, the priest is a new breed and he wants to get up close and personal with his flock to show he's not up in an ivory tower looking down on them like he's god. he sees peggy as a missionary project - to retrieve a strayed lamb and restore her to the flock.
however, he's motivated by private information on peggy's private life, thanks to the malicious gossip (so-called "confession") of peggy's bitter, jealous sister. since when is it proper confession of one's own sins by "outing" someone else's???
oh yeah, enough with that ugly guy on the commercial - i don't care what she promises, she's gonna wanna smash that "human beatbox" after a few months of real life.
Visan and Gail,
Having grown up in the Catholic church, priests consider it their right to be involved with the lives of their parishoners. I think the level of involvement depends on the size of the parish, as well.
The Catholic Church--and I think any religion, really--is either winning souls (assets) or losing them, and you can't do that if they're not in your control. I think Father Gil has ultimately good intentions. But, if it seemed Father Gil might be manipulating Peggy a little bit, it was all-good in God's eyes.
Why does Don have to have a sex addiction? Why is he not simply a man-whore? Again, he tried to control Betty with his sexuality, rubbing her thigh when she confronted him. He thought, maybe, if they took their problems to bed, the issue would be over.
Don's an adulterous bastard...and remains sexy while doing so!
betty calmly and efficiently breaking the wobbly chair to kindling wood - a chilling incident.
the fact that you can't foresee her doing such a thing, or even understand why she did it - that's what makes this show interesting.
@Boca and GuySmiley: Thanks for the explanation!
"By ldraper; visan, I agree that gays should have equal rights and women shouldn't be beaten up, and all people have the right to vote. {Go Obama"
I don't believe that this site is a Republican/Democratic debate. It's about a show that we all seem to like. Once one person slips in their views, then all will follow and screw up this thread. Like this, McCain for President, Not Osama Bin Laden or Obama with Biden, whatever!
I think if Don were straight-up and honest about his sex life, he would be simply a man-whore.
The fact that he compartmentalizes his various dalliances, and even got mad that people knew about his sex life (how innocently Bobbie called him out as having a 'reputation'). To me that signifies that he has a problem.
Like Harry from last season, there's our Don, living in the Sterling Cooper kitchen. Pathetic! Maybe Peggy will put him up for a few nights?
Too bad we didn't get to see him walking around SC in his undies. Briefs or boxers?
Laurie: I say thong! Ha!
GuySmiley: I never thought about it like that, compartmentalization.... I would love to see if some of Don's other lovers turn up. Just how many mistresses has this man had over the course of his marriage?
With regard to Joan:
It took me until Season 2, Episode 8 to realize who she reminds me of --Edie Adams (widow of Ernie Kovacs). She was usually a blonde, but occasionally a redhead, and Joan looks just like her.
As for her not getting promoted, I've read a lot of these posts, and I don't think you get it: she wasn't passed over for a promotion. Roger, Harry, etc. never even thought about promoting her. It never entered their heads. The position was a MAN'S job. When Roger told Harry to hire someone, he said "pay HIM $150 a week." It was understood that, because the job paid that much, it was a job for a man. In those days the want ads had separate listings for men and women. It was common for secretaries to train their new bosses. In the '70s I was working at Ohio State University, and my department hired a man (four years younger than I) to oversee my job. He was hired because he was the son of someone influential, and they "found" (created) a job for him as a favor to his father. I had to train him AND continued to do the work I had been doing all along. He was just supposed to "supervise" me. His job was totally unnecessary. I believe that Joan will continue to read the scripts and do what needs to be done, and the new guy will get paid $150 per week and do nothing except get credit for Joan's work. Harry will be elevated in stature because he will have someone reporting to him.
I belive that the scene with Joan and the fiancee was put in to demonstrate that she has only two options: continue to work at a job for which she will never be promoted or rewarded or get married and be a servant to her doctor husband.
Why in the world would we care what kind of undies Don wears? They wouldn't be on for long anyway.
Like Harry from last season, there's our Don, living in the Sterling Cooper kitchen. Pathetic! Maybe Peggy will put him up for a few nights?
The SC Kitchen: The Official DogHouse Of SC.
GuySmiley et al:
Don doesn't see himself as a man-whore and doesn't want a "reputation" for sex any more than a woman would. I think Bobbie might have (finally) gotten the idea after he left her tied up after she kept talking even when he told her to stop talking.
He sees himself as a man getting a little on the side and would never think of asking his Dearly Beloved Madonna for a bj or anything other than missionary position. He might have, very early in their relationship and she might have angrily come back with: "What kind of girl do you think I am? A whore?" Okay, never ask for that or anything out of the ordinary again would be his logic. So he can get his non-standard from other women.
That he's apparently very good at it is obvious. He also has only one affair at a time. Finish one before starting another. Definitely not jumping from bed to bed as Warren Beatty did in "Shampoo."
I can't see Bobbie linking up with Betty against Don. It's a non-winning combination for her and she only tries for winning combinations.
With regard to the priest:
I don't think there was anything inappropriate about his questions to Peggy (except that they occurred at her office.) Peggy comes from a socioeconomic background which, in 1962, did not usually include psychotherapy. I think that the priest sees confession as an alternative to therapy (also common in those days). Because Peggy is not taking communion, he belives that she is having problems dealing with the aftermath of having a child out of wedlock and he is trying to help in the only way he knows how.
Continuity....why was Don on Betty's side of the bed when she came in from riding? Then in the next shot, on his side. C'mon guys. Is this up for analysis or just a mistake?
OMG....
This thread is over 260+ posts and next Sunday is a repeat (Three Sundays) because the Emmys are broadcast the same evening. (I hope Mad Men wins all 16!)
This thread will be extraordinarily long because the next premiere episode is broadcast September 29th!
Anyone wanta guess at how many posts on this thread by then?
My guess?...784!
Why in the world would we care what kind of undies Don wears? They wouldn't be on for long anyway.
Bwahaha!
(maybe he wears no underwear at all...)
I don't blame Don for cheating. I think Betty is cold as ice. In addition, I think she hates men. The way she relates or doesn't relate to her son shows how much she despises men. The way she treats that little boy can break your heart. Her daughter Sally seems emoti0onally detached also. If I were Don I'm not sure I'd ever come home.
I now hate Harry more than Pete. To think that was possible is quite stunning. Christina Hendrick's face when Harry tells her about the job is a scene I could not get out of my mind last night and it still hurts me today. I have rarely seen an actress display so much emotion in such a short period of time, It breaks your heart to see her. And then the scene later with her shoulder.
My lord she is the most beautiful women I have ever seen ever and she is an incredile actress.
And who ever made the comment about Joan putting on weight. She looks great. Please...it is so nice to see full figured women. Skin and bones has never and will never be attractive. At least to me.
chopin47 et alia: The song going out was performed by Peter, Paul & Mary..."Brand New Day", I think
I also hate the commercials during MM. I hate the hotels.com and chemistry.com. I have been waiting for Betty to come unglued as in the chair coming unglued and broken. I have admired JJ's performance in every episode and think she's brilliant in this role. Last season when she was on the dr's couch, was magically played out by her. I could watch it over and over. When she sits up to get a cig and then smooths her hair back down before lying back on the pillow said so much. Don would lie about the affairs because in those days you didn't have the internet or blogs, etc where Betty could make a few clicks and find out a lot of info. You didn't have a show called "Cheaters". LOL If Don was a sexoholic and didn't really love and care for Betty, then why didn't he spend the night with one of his many women friends (we haven't seen all of them) instead of staying at the office? I can't wait to see where he's living after this and how he explains it or maybe hides it. I wonder if he's thinking about when poor Harry was running around in his underwear when he was living at the office? Don is facing losing something he really loves and he's all alone. During office hours HE'S the man around there. My most haunting scene from this season is episode 1 when Don's waiting for Betty in the Savoy and sees her walking down the staircase and there's so much love and pride in his eyes and face and the music and double image of them on the screen was so brilliant that I get emotional every time I see it. Then, of course, after Betty sees her old roomate and Don tells her she's a call girl and Betty doesn't believe him and he says, what do you think, I'm stupid. Of course, he's really saying, you're stupid to not know that, Betty. Took the joy right out of the scene. Then when they're in bed and Don is having trouble staying active, Betty says something like, you just need to tell me what do to. Betty has a real man who turns on women all over Manhattan, but can't satisfy his own wife. Don needs to be naughty with Betty and teach her some things. I thought it was sad that Betty didn't tell Don that she knew about Bobbie until she needed to say something to defend herself against his argument about the dinner party. She didn't have the guts to confront him face to face, but only blurted it out from frustration because Don didn't understand how hurt she was during the dinner party. As far as Joan being pregnant and someone seeing the actress on a talk show recently, the show was probably taped months ago so she wouldn't be "as pregnant" now was when the show was taped. She can't have a breast reduction on the show because her real boobs are that size and that would difficult to hide those things. If she is pregnant and tries to hide it, Peggy will remember those days of gaining weight and she will know Joan's pregnant. Although Peggy didn't know at the time she was pregnant. Joan probably won't have an abortion because it would be interesting to see who the father is. Sorry for so many thoughts in one post, but I don't post very often. I read every post and these posts are invaluable to understanding this show. The show wouldn't mean as much if it weren't for brilliant people posting your thoughts. Thank you.
I can't wait 'till Sunday!!! Where will Don go? He has so many women he could shack up with!
I am so shocked at the fact that Don won't admit to cheating. Betty totally blew this episode out of the water! January Jones' acting is amazing! I didn't know Betty had it in her! Team Betty all the way! I hate Don more and more...I wonder how he'll end up. Maybe he'll turn to drugs? That would be a good twist for next season...
Did anyone notice the can of PRIDE on the dining room table when Betty was dusting? As she was breaking and picking up the chair, I couldn't help but think that her "pride" was broken and she was so sadly picking up the pieces of it as she picked up the broken chair pieces.
Don could sleep in the Caddy. Of course it's got that 'Eau de Betty" odor in it still.
I noticed the can of Pride, but didn't relate Betty's pride, that's why I love these posts and your insight.
I think this has been my favorite episode so far in season 2. Everything was seamless. All the plot lines integrated so well and the flow of the entire episode was amazing. FINALLY January Jones showed some brilliant work. Granted, she hasn't really been given the opportunity in the past, so it's not her fault, but I was so proud of her! She really brought it this episode. I hope this is a sign of new things for Betty and Don. I hope she can stick to her guns! John Hamm also did some new things with Don. The scene late at night when he was sleeping on the couch and Betty comes to talk to him, he showed more true emotion than I think I've ever seen Don show. He knows he's in trouble and I think we saw the beginnings of panic. I love to see Don uncomfortable. I hope Joan doesn't marry that guy. She's too independent and strong to be married to some man who wants her to be the "dutiful housewife." I love the episodes where we mostly get to see things from the women's perspectives. It's so insightful and clever and you really feel the struggle that they are going through. Yay for Betty! Take a stand girl and stay strong! I just can't say enough about this episode!
The scene with Peggy and Father Gill made me think I have been wrong about her baby. She is not going to Communion, which Catholics are not allowed to do if they have a mortal sin on their souls. So I'm wondering if Peggy actually harmed her baby in some way, maybe even killed it. Perhaps she took it home after giving birth and was hospitalized because she kllled it -- accidentally, I'm sure, but she blames herself and thinks her lack of maternal instinct caused the death. (Maybe that's the dead child she was telling Bobbi about.)
She definitely has something to hide from Father Gill, and she knows he knows she had a baby so it's not just that she doesn't want to talk about having gotten pregnant. And she looks far too stricken in that last scene in the bathtub, for it to be that she had a baby and gave ti wawy.
How about all the undressing in those last scenes? Characters shedding their outer shells and getting down to the bone . . ..
I still like me some Don Draper! He can kick an old man down a flight of stairs and Don will still be fabulastic to me! Don, divorced or not, will rise again! Viva Don the Ho!
Speaking of Viva and commercials, I often watch MM on On Demand. EVERY single episode has an intermission with the SAME dumb Viagra commercial VIVA, VIVA.... VIAGRAAAA!!!! I'm sick of looking at the guy in his dusty blue high school tuxedo (as if guys actually kept their rented tuxedos). Thank goodness for fast forward.
Only one thing didn't ring true to me - Don spending the night at Sterling Cooper. Don's a rich man and one of the partners, I think he could have afforded going to a hotel easily, new Caddy or not. Maybe the only reason he didn't, is that he wanted Betty to be able to reach him at the office. But would she have been able to after hours? Most businesses of the era, I thought (because I worked for one), had telephone answering services after hours, didn't they?
To the guys out there: How do you like watching Viagra commercials? Does it make you squirmy, especially if you're watching with a woman? I would think maybe it would be like a woman watching a commercial for a products for feminine itching or odor. Some things don't have to be on TV 24/7. Thoughts?
SoFla Kate: What the hell are you talking about, killed her baby? We saw her son twice in Episode 2, "Flight 1"!
Good grief, catch a freakin clue!
Good point Jamm54. Lots of people live in NYC Hotels. Duck does.
Jamm: That was some Weiner and Co. dramatic license, Don's night at SC! The show's great but still has to add OTT elements to highlight a situation or just for drama....It seemed weird to me, too, that Don wouldn't go to a motel for a night
Jonathan: Not so fast. We saw the baby, but we also saw a very pregnant Anita (Peg's sister) remember?? Most of us think that baby is Anita's. But I also think the idea of her killing the baby is a bit of a shark jump.
Laurie, I don't know if you're into golf at all but the entire financial basis of The Golf Channel depends upon the male sex organ. We have non-stop commercials for Viagra, Cialis (personal favorite) and Lavetra to get it up. I'm still hoping for that four hour erection they keep promising me which, if I get it, I'm going to do my honest best to bang my girlfriend to death or at least make her walk funny for a week.
If it's not to get it up it's to help me piss. In between ED commercials we've got the Avadart and Flomax to work on my prostrate issues.
Under trickle down economics (appropriately enough since we're discussing an impaired flow of urine) our entire economy has morphed from manufacturing to the creation and marketing of penis enhancement products. As the Chinese would say: a great leap forward!
In response to Stephanie Jo's comment about Sterling asking Harry if he is "on crack", the actual line is "Do you smoke, Crane?". Crane is Harry's last name. There was never any reference to crack.
I'm thinking Father Gill is homosexual. Peggy will find that out.
@Laurie: I'm a woman and I abhor those assy Viagra commercials! That guy, in that too tight, powder blue suit chaps my ass! he looks corny as hell!
To be honest, the one thing that's always nagged me was Peggy's pregnancy storyline. It just seemed so "Jerry Springer!" Ah, to each their own! But it seems so beneath the writing of Mad Men! *snaps fingers* Hated it!!
I think Don stayed at the office, is because he truly does care for Betty. I think he denied the affair or affairs was because he was saving face, and possibly after the Bobbie incident, and the Jimmy incident wanted to work things out and try and change. I think when Betty threw up in the car, he probably thought she was just drunk. We all think Betty is naive, I think Don is just as naive. Sure like somebody said he may have stayed at the office so that if Betty changed her mind she could reach him there, but I dont think so. Betty told him, I cant even look at you, dont come home. I think that was reason enough that she wasnt going to call asking him back.
Think what you like, but you'll be disappointed when it ain't so. You guys have seen too many other shows with ridiculous and inexplicable plot twists that insult the viewers' intelligence and contradict everything previously seen à la Bobby Ewing. This ain't Dallas, folks.
As far as Don not going to a hotel: Betty called Don at work to tell him not to come home. Even the great Don Draper is capable of being shocked to the point of inaction. He may also feel at this point that he has lost everything and that his job is all he has left, so he feels safe right there at SC.
I thought, especially because Don is a partner, that he wouldn't want to spend the night at Sterling Cooper. But, who's to say that he did? We gather that Don is "stunned" that Betty tossed him to the curb, and after a couple of hours he might have moved on to a hotel. I don't think Don would want any gossip getting out about his marital troubles.
SoFiaKate
Yes even having sex outside of marriage was a gravely shameful thing for a Catholic girl then - and having a baby out of wedlock - that would emotionally devastate many women then as now - socially and spiritually - fageddaboudit! So she didn't necessarily kill that baby - and these writers are too clever to have to resort too often to shock value - they are good storytellers and could hook us without a murder - it was very clever taht the joan clip before ep 8 said "someone dead isn't dead" - and it turned out to be a soap opera plot line. This is no soap! (It's a wonder any of us survived being Catholic during pre-Vatican times!)
If Don could ever get over his "fear" of telling the truth and what the consequences would be, he might have a chance.
I mention on another discussion that there are two reactions to fear: fight or flight.
Only once did Don ever stay and "fight" and that was in the Pete blackmail accusation. I thought he was going to pass out when Pete told Cooper his "real name". But, Don survived it, so why not try it with Betty?
Man, Don denied the affair with Bobbie to save his own ass, or so he thought! It wasn't out of nobility to Betty or his kids or marriage! I'll say this, so far, Betty only has suspicions. Dapper Don covered his ass pretty good! He's slick!
Don will rise again! (No ED meds needed! Ha!)
@Visan: what does OTT elements mean?
Don has stayed overnight at SC before. For example, the night he found Harry wandering around in his BVDs. To him, Betty's being irrational and will come to her senses when she thinks it through. Getting a hotel room, even for the night, to him would mean making a real change in his life.
Re: Harry not considering Joan
Joan is engaged. At her age, within a year she'd be expected to be pregnant. Either way, she'd be expected to leave her office job for the full time job of being a doctor's wife and/or soon-to-be mother. That was the logic in those days.
Likewise, reading the scripts was considered a duty tacked onto her office manager duties. Harry might have been satisfied with her work but he probably couldn't see her working as his subordinate, no matter how good she was. (Sorry, Joan.) She's got too much moxie for him, to put it mildly. Not to mention all the subtle insinuations his still-pregnant wife might give him if she knew Joan was working for him. Not as many as if Hildy was under him (again! :-)) but...
Harry reports to Roger. If he'd been reporting to Don, things might have been different. Don's known to promote women into the "creative" ranks but not Roger who might also have "issues" with Joan.
First time commenting...have loved this show from the beginning...so glad to find out that I'm not crazy for being hooked on it! January Jones is the reincarnation of my mother in the sixties, be that good or bad, and she's doing a bang-up job
Good morning.
So many posts to read. I read half already, I will come back to read more later. So forgive me if this has been stated already.
Did anyone see that Don was dropped off in front of apartment bldg at the end of the show from the taxi?
Let's decide whose apt that is? Is it Midge's? Peggy's?
Poor Betts. (My dad used to call me "Betts". No one else ever used that nickname for me). But now we see her truth is making her stronger. She accused Don, and wouldn't have any excuses from him. She looked for actual evidence in his belongings, but Don is so compartmentalized he left nothing behind for her to find. Still, she doesn't doubt what she knows. I would have wimped out for another bout of infidelities, Betts didn't.
Don and Peggy aren't fessing up. Joan realized that she did really want to have a more important job. The pain of her "femininity" is cutting into her. Her true hopes are now apparent. She won't quit her job, even with her new husband. This will turn out to be a problem.
As far as her body goes, I see padding under her clothing that doesn't quit look real. (sorry MM). Besides, Christina's legs are much thinner than they should be for that hourglass figure.
Father Gill, now seems like he wants Brownie Points with his temporary parrish. He hires Peggy, but then won't go to bat for her during her presentation. He then claims he is only the liason (sorry, can't spell). She really dug into him. YEAH!
Great epi.
Great comments! Everyone is so clever.
So, to get a hotel room would have lent credence to the reality of his situation? Given it too much permanence if he took a room?
I was surprised that Don didn't go home anyway. Normally he rules the roost, so why should it change now?
I've always thought Father Gill had a thing for Peggy, he thinks she puts out now and is an easy mark. I don't trust him at all.
Has any of you thought that Duck and Betty might be a future item, I just got an inkling last night in the way he complimented her excellent homemaking style.
I've been following this show and as always, have to express my opinion: THIS SHOW IS AMAZING. It gets better and better. A few thoughts. Betty confronting Don last night was incredible. LOVED IT! I adore Don but that was needed and it was played out perfectly. Also, a few episodes back, Three Sundays, I think, this show became even more amazing to me when Don visited Peggy in the hospital. I thought to myself, 'Perfect casting on the part of Jon Hamm and his character just made me love him even more'. Wonderful work, week after week. Huge fan!
I was surprised that Don didn't go home anyway. Normally he rules the roost, so why should it change now?
I've always thought Father Gill had a thing for Peggy, he thinks she puts out now and is an easy mark. I don't trust him at all.
Has any of you thought that Duck and Betty might be a future item, I just got an inkling last night in the way he complimented her excellent homemaking style.
Over The Top, which is a good description of most of Visan's posts.
Why THESE three story lines in ep8?
All three story lines are confrontations about the paths three characters are on.
Don is confronted by Betty: Do you hate me? Why would you humiliate me like this? Did you want to be a good married man at all?
Peggy is confronted by Fr. Gill:Why won't you confess your sin? Why won't you accept god's grace? Don't you want to be a good catholic girl and a part of this community?
Joan is confronted by her Dr. Fiancee: Shouldn't you be watching those shows instead of reading their scripts? Don't you want to buy the house in Glen Cove, get pregnant and eat bon bons?
Don, Peggy and Joan are united one answer:
"I'm not sure. I do know my explanation is one your world view can't handle -- so I can't explain this to you."
So Don lies, Peggy is respectfully dismissive, Joan laughs it off ("It's a hoot.".)
Don, Peggy and Joan are confronted by moral archetypes in Betty, Fr. Gill and Dr. Fiancee.
These three, the good hostess, the catholic priest and the chauvinist husband live in a world of unassailable belief about the way the world works.
And why not? They are at the zenith of their power in modern american culture.
In a decade, their views, held by the vast majority in 1962 will be in shocking decline.
And their decline will be due in great part to people like Don (the man in the grey flannel suit) Peggy (the good girl) and Joan (the sexpot) who feel trapped in the roles that society told them were the path to fulfillment and happiness.
Don knows his "fairy tale" life isn't the answer. Peggy knows her choices were limited and in many ways unfair. And Joan has an inkling, for the first time perhaps, that the natural order she has played a key role in maintaining may not be so great afterall.
Peggy, Fr. Gill and Dr. Fiancee all carry out their roles with decency and expected concern. Something is wrong with Don, Peggy and now Joan, and they just want to get to the bottom of it.
Heck Betty and Fr. Gill go the extra mile. Betty buys sexy lingerie and Fr. Gill has his guitar and his more colloquial sermons.
The problem is that at least Don and Peggy don't feel they deserve punishment and Joan may be beginning to realize that she doesn't want to end up as little more than a curvaceous man-mommy.
The conventional moral answer here would be tell the truth and be forgiven.
Really?
Imagine Don's, Peggy's and Joan's answers and ask if they can be "forgiven"?
Don: "Betty, my life is a lie. I came from nothing, wiped the little I was away in a moment of terror and then chose you as part of a plan to re-create myself in the image I believed would make me happy. And it doesn't. Still there is much I love about this life. But as a man who life has offered no other moral code beyond "survive" I do not want to throw away the little bit of stable identity I have. You ask if I love you? I loved and I still love the idea of you."
Betty: The "idea" of me? What is that supposed to mean?
Peggy: "Father, I naively thought taking one birth control pill would protect me from getting pregnant during intercourse. Because I have a yearning for something more than what my sister settled for I came to work in Manhattan. As part of that yearning I had a brief infatuation for a needy, also unhappy ivy-league educated nerd who fancied himself a writer. And he got me pregnant. I saw through him over time and convinced myself that my weight gain was do to over-eating. When I gave birth I was emotionally destroyed. But I don't want my sister's life I want the life I think might be possible for me beyond brooklyn. I'm angry over this world god and man has constructed that has made it so hard for me to be happy. One that left me sexually naive and emotionally damaged as a result. Not taking communion isn't a sign of my shame father, it's a sign of my anger."
Fr. Gill: "I play the mandolin and all, but did you say you attempted to use birth control?"
Joan: Yes, of course you love my looks. And of course my role is serve you and to serve the men of Sterling Cooper. But maybe, just maybe I'm starting to feel the price of being valued for my body alone. My big bust has been my greatest asset. Now the bra straps are digging into my shoulders literally and figuratively and for the first time, I'm acknowledging the irritation."
Dr. Fiancee: "Hun, where's my water?"
In this still early 60's world, Don, Peggy and Joan are not going to allow themselves to get divorced, leave the church or dump a doctor husband.
Soon they'll be carried away from these things by the tide of change but not yet. Not in 1962.
Don and Peggy for now at least, are trying to forge a "separate peace" by still living in society, but living in it on terms they can somewhat stand through duplicity. Joan it seems to has begun to do this by remaining at work and making excuses about why she's still there.
@Jamm: Over the Top=OTT
Wow what an episode. Several story arcs advancing at the same time.
The obvious place to start is with Don and Betty. In our first glimpse of her, astride her horse, she reminded me of Tippy Hedron in "Marny". It would not surprise me if some of the camera angles were lifted from the movie. Her attire is very similar if not identical. "Marny" is about a repressed upper middle class woman who has a problem dealing with men on an emotional and physical level. She is also a kleptomaniac. Late in the movie we discover that her problems come from the shame she feels because her mother was a prostitute. Interesting twist in MM, but the theme is the same.
Very little time has elapsed since Jimmy's speeches in EP7 and last night's episode. Don thinks all is relative calm, yet Betty is seething under the surface. After she comes back from her ride and enters her bedroom, she chastises Don regarding the completion of his assigned "To Do" list. Near the end of this scene, Don asks her to sit down next to him. When she does, she is as rigid and proper as a secretary and you can see from her body language that she does not want Don to even touch her. Flash forward and we see Betty taking out some frustration on the dining room chair. She is so matter of fact about it, while we and her children are shocked by her actions. Flash forward again, we get our final payoff. First she feels humiliated by Don at a dinner party that she worked so hard to execute, then treated trivially when she finally confronts Don after the party. Telling him that she knows about Bobbie Barrett at least acknowledged the elephant in the room. Don consistently denies anything and all Betty really is left with are her suspicions and a few oblique comments from Jimmy Barrett. She riffles through Don's suits and effects to find some evidence for her argument. Finding nothing, Betty begins to question her own sanity and is ready to negotiate with Don. When she and Don finally talk, Betty looks drained and beaten. The next day she sees the Utz commercial and realizes that she was correct all along. The commercial made her realize that the affair had been going on for quite some time. It was thrown in her face by Don, who put her on display for the Barrett's pleasure (Don- "I want you to look shiny and pretty"). She was used and made foolish- all the signs were there and she finally sees them. Next she tells Don to stay away from the house. This episode belonged to Betty. Ms. Jones has been given something to demonstrate that she can act- she did a wonderful job. You could see the changes in demeanor and emotion as her perspective changed over the course of the episode. She was believable as a wife going through a breakdown. Harrowing Stuff.
For Don's part everything is still going well. More accounts are coming in, clients are happy, Duck, Roger and he are all getting along well. They are even collaborating on either recruiting Crab Colson or trying to do business with his company. All is well on the surface. Yet we know that Don is a perceptive man, so we know that he is aware of Betty's repressed rage. His approach to life is to act they way you want things to be, so if he acts like nothing is wrong, everything will eventually work out. He is still trying to bluff his way through, but when Betty confronts him, we can see that he is scared underneath his denials. When he and Betty finally talk rationally, there is real terror in his eyes. He can see it all slipping away- everything he has worked to construct. Later when Betty tells him not to come home, he has no place to go to so he seeks refuge in the office. In the past, when reality intruded on his carefully constructed exterior, he tried to flee, but where will he go this time ? His final scene in the break room is telling. Notice his body language- instead of the polished business executive, sitting in an upholstered chair, with legs crossed, he is slumped over in a hard seat, with legs splayed, drinking a beer, just like a factory worker or truck driver, or just like what Dick Whitman would be in life. And he can see it all as plain as day.
Peggy and Father Gil is an interesting dynamic. She clearly likes him but can't figure out the basis for his interest in her. For his part, he is a privileged person in their community. Remember that this was still a time when the Priesthood was a noble profession. Sometimes with privilege comes a sense of entitlement- he can insert himself into the lives of his parishioners and expect them to unburden themselves to him. Peggy has set boundaries which he has clearly not encountered before. Peggy will help sell the CYO dance, but will not allow Father Gil to pry into her private life. But he has the final word when he essentially asks her why she feels unworthy of Gods love. Her response is palpable and she is thankfully saved by the bell (Xerox machine). She is conflicted about her background and her feelings for Father Gil. His final scene as a folksinger should give us a glimpse into his future- he will be one of the clergy who will take part in the social protests coming later in the decade.
Joan may be having regrets about her chosen path in life and at SC. Whether she harbored ambition or not, the opportunity to contribute to the TV department clearly interested her and her contributions were immediate and positive. She was crestfallen when informed that her "job" had been given to a new person. Harry for his part is clueless. Yes he knows his job, but other than that ?? The others in the office belittle him, Roger thinks he is inept, Duck treats him like a child. He doesn't know to keep a pack of cigarettes on hand for Roger and he doesn’t' realize that Joan is doing anything more than just helping out. Joan is too reserved in the office to let her real feelings known- her office persona is to look pretty, rather than to look like a junior executive. On the other hand we did see clients praise Joan's work, which only reinforces Harry's oblivion to her ability. Will we eventually see Joan in the TV department ? How is this for irony: 2 episodes after Joan tells Peggy to act like a woman if she want to be taken seriously, Joan may realize that she needs Peggy's advice if she wants her aspirations to be noticed. In the brief scene with Joan's fiancé, we see that he is condescending and patronizing- and Joan puts up with it. This relationship will not last.
Too bad we have to wait 2 weeks to find out more !
Great analysis, JimK!
Thanks Jam.
Regarding Joan ever possibly moving out of the secretarial pool into other areas of advertising - Joan might have a problem there. Joan has kind of bullied those AE's and the other men for years in the office, and hasn't exactly been "easy" to get along with at times. No one crosses Joan. Can you imagine Joan running over the top of Harry once she got that Broadcast Operations job? I could. Joan could be both a help and a hindrance. If anyone is going to "give" her the job, it will be coming from the clients who already met her; they liked her "take" on some of the daytime shows. They could be an influence on the job possibility for Joan, not anyone at Sterling Cooper. Interesting to see if it comes to pass.
Did anyone notice that when Betty said to Don "I don't know what to do" that was the same thing that Pete said to Don after his father died? It's funny these characters thinking that Don would have the answer for them!
I am glad to find I am not alone in being disgusted by some of the commercial breaks during MM. The one that is really annoying is the nerdy human "beat box" guy. At least when you re-watch MM On Demand you are spared the constant breaks for commercials.(Although I agree w/ another poster who is bored with the limp dick commercial for Viagra.)
After this episode I think things finally coming to a head between Don and Betty was long overdue. She's been percolating for some time now and her perceived humiliation at the dinner party was just the catalyst to cause her to explode.
Ms. Jones did a superb acting job,although I never doubted her abilities...all the actors here are top notch and Emmy worthy.
I can't see this crisis becoming resolved before the end of the season. Betty is pissed off and you know that saying about a woman scorned......Maybe Don will go live in a nice hotel like Duck,but no one will know since he's so secret. The only plus to Don being locked out of the house is he could have all the cheap and dirty sex he wants with high class call girls.
It was sad to see Joan get screwed over,but not surprising.My thoughts were "better get used to it" since the Old Boys Club won't be called out for awhile anyway. That type of unfairness was standard procedure in those days perhaps. Doing a great job and having some clueless knucklehead get the credit and the better pay.I'd be fighting mad,but that hurt look on Joan's face said it all didn't it?
I'm over the snoopy priest trying to pester Peggy into confessing her sins and redeeming herself. I can't see a priest calling on a parishioner at the work place,but they did make "house calls".We had one come over to "intervene" at our house in the mid-60's. It was invasive then,but accepted since "therapy" and counseling services were not the norm like they are now.
I don't know how all of the other MM fans feel,but I think I am going to really go into withdrawal when the season comes to a close. Where will we get our Mad Men fix on when it goes into it's hiatus. I hate to think we will all be miserable and pining away till Season 3 in July 09!!!!!
Great insight all of you. This show is so fascinating and the acting brilliant.
Jonathan,
What a fantastic line: ..."shocked to the point of inaction."
I agree. Don doesn't have a clue what to do next, so he stays where he feels safe, to sort things out.
Man I hope this shows gets some Emmys!
Fr. Gill was at SC to pick up copies of the dance flyer.
Don will get Jimmy Barrett to tell Betty he was making it up because he had a crush on her, envies Don and was drunkenly jealous. And Don will be welcomed home.
Don creates modern morality for a living. He's chosen to live outside good and evil. He believes he was right to sleep with Bobbi for professional and personal reasons. And he is not going to become Duck 2.
He's going to sit there in the SC kitchen with his Heineken and plan how he'll squeeze Jimmy to do what he needs to return to his home on HIS terms. No Carlton-like bowing and scraping.
Betty will give in. Like her predecessor on the Soprano's Carmela, she has too much invested in the lie to sell off now. And as we discussed last week at great length, she has a low opinion of Jimmy to begin with because of his background. So like the Utz exec and his wife, she's going to believe him and have her faith restored, for now, in the rightness of her world.
Ok can someone explain Betts breaking the dining room chair ?
I did notice Joan's gold pencil missing this epi. Also, her clothes were a bit more reserved. And we saw her in pants!
She didn't serve her boyfriend dinner, nor set the table nor remember his water. As a secretary, she would have attended to all of those things.
I can see a change in her.
I also remember that she told Peggy that she doesn't know "those circles"(sic) last epi. Peggy wanted to know if Joan knew about the meeting she wasn't being included on.
So I believe that Joan doesn't know how to get into a new job at SC.
I could have sworn that Fr. Gill was going to pluck out a slow folk tune when he picked up his guitar. What a surprise!
Oh, and the confrontation that we see Peggy have with someone in the next epi could really be her yelling at her sister.
Forgive me if this is redundant and please direct me to whomever commented on this thread, but I am fascinated by the competence of the women in this episode. I did not see Betty's destruction of the chair as anger, but as a means to make it small enough to put in the trash. I have done so with things in my own household. I love her simple comprehension of the tasks she set for Don. Peggy is supremely competent. Joan learns and masters her new responsibility with ease. Yet all will be thwarted. I think they are all going to realize their incredible power and revolutionize the sixties. That is the newness realized in the tub, and kitchen, sans makeup.
And by the way, good for Don regarding betty. He instinctively understands she bows to power and crushes the weak. Look how she fell for don providing the fur coat after the first met and how she treats poor little bobby.
To go home to that house other than victorious is to be doomed to her crushing, claustrophobic control. Don will not do that. He will figure out how to return at strength.
Sassy: Chair destruction-- Suppressed rage in the wake of the Jimmy revelation about Bobbi and Don.
We ourselves might be sold a pitch here that isn't necessarily true. Are all men of this time egotistical, macho, sexist and competitive? Are all women of this time repressed, unhappy ,talented and overlooked?
Come on now people....where are the well adjusted men and women who loved what they did and were truly happy with life. Where are all the the men and women who prospered and contributed to hope and a new future. Where is the sense that the nation was at it's core good and could do great things.
The most frustrating perplexing thrust of the media and culture to just constantly wishing to destroy and throw out all that previous generations had worked so hard at building and preserving. And then on top of that to make thoes that tear down society into saints and heros. It's a product that this show is starting to sell and I am not going to buy it.
What I love so much about this time is its great sense of optomism and hope in the future. Or its commitment to values such as honesty, dedication , loyality or just decency and moral courage. Where is that represented? You can certainly see it in the ads of the time. However were made to think that......no .... .."this was all just a fake and phoney facade for all that was seathing underneath". That the generation before the revolutionary sixties was just ignorant, repressed and materialistic. Well I just don't buy that!
I feel like a small David trying to hurl a stone at the giant of cultural rebelion. There was so much that was good before the sixties that is overlooked. And it was out of this goodness that we have a foundation for what is good today.
So when you watch a show like this ...which has so much potential to explore this era in a balanced fashion....don't you feel just a little ripped off and manipulated when they go into the sterotypical "repressed fifties" and "revolutionary sixties."
There was no suppressed rage at the time. Watch it again. She was taking care of an annoying problem: rickety chair. She is learning she can handle what life brings. She is learning her own strength and competence.
The issues with the scripts- where Harry missed that the show had a communist agitator and in them and then the Maytag commercial came on describing the great agitator for the washing machine. When Betty is watching a television show, the young boy in the show and his dad are talking and he the boy, makes mention that his girl was with some other guy, and then it broke to Jimmy Barrett and the UTZ commercial. I'm trying to establish how Betty made up her mind about Dons cheating when she saw the UTZ commercial with Jimmy. What did it tell her or what peice of evidence did it reveal that investigating and rummaging throughout the entire house did not?
Father Gill is one of the starters of the folk mass that became popular around that time in the Catholic church as an alternative to regular mass. Usually a cool open minded young Priest gave the mass. Not sure about his intentions with Peggy.
Joan couldn't understand how Peggy was playing it at the office. She couldn't understand why she would want to join in with a bunch of miserable men and become a copywriter, and not just try and find a husband and kick it in the suburbs. I think she is realizing what she thought she wanted is not for her, and was upset that she didnt get the script reading job. I think and hope for the show she chooses career over marriage.
I agree the commercials during MM are truly bad. But the Viagra commercials make sense. Viagra is for men who have trouble getting it up to screw their wives which correlates with Don's erectile issue with only Betty. Those issues disappear when he is with other women.
Artist: Peter, Paul & Mary
Album: Peter, Paul And Mary
Song: Early In The Morning
Well early in the morning, about the break of day,
I ask the Lord, "Help me find the way!"
Help me find the way to the promised land
This lonely body needs a helping hand
I ask the Lord to help me please find the way.
When the new day's a dawning, I bow my head in prayer.
I pray to the Lord, "Won't you lead me there?"
Won't you guide me safely to the Golden Stair?
Won't you let this body your burden share?
I pray to the Lord, "Won't you lead me please, lead me there?"
When the judgment comes to find the world in shame
When the trumpet blows won't you call my name?
When the thunder rolls and the heavens rain
When the sun turns black, never shine again
When the trumpet blows, won't you call me please, call my name!
The 1950s were the "good ol' days" for rich, heterosexual healthy white males! For the poor, people of color, women, disabled and gays that time was sure as hell the "bad ol' days!"
I don't think the writers are saying EVERYBODY was like this in the early 60's. We're talking about a very high strung profession. I had a cousin who was married to an ad man at the time and she said all the cliches about the 3-martini lunch and ulcer-producing stress and BS that came with it were true.
Dalva... wow, great answer to my question. I can see it all so clearly now. I also noticed the straps of Betty's gown in that scene — all of the TENSION, pressing against her upper arms. Great little detail that I think must have been intentional.
Don Draper wasn’t lying when he said nothing happened with Bobbi because he left her tied up. He does have this ability to compartmentalize things and never mind that Bobbi did snag him once. Betty’s pride will get the best of her. This has been simmering since Jimmy tried to use the Bobbi/Don affair to work something of his own with the Belle of the Hudson River. The horseback-riding scene Saturday morning, and the angry chair scene point to Betty’s underlying angst that was planted by jackhole Jimmy. The Heineken incident at the dinner table was just a tipping point for her to get to her real issue with Don. Betty had better get a grip. The other women at the table are more advanced and in the same position as her.
As for Joan and her Intern Doctor fiancé’ it seems that he would rather have her staying home watching soaps and abandoning her career. Think Dr. Kildare and Ben Casey that were popular at the time. I hope Joan wakes up in time and smells the coffee and dumps the Doc.
I predict that Crane will bomb with his new helper and Mitch will be complaining about revenues being down and his head will eventually roll. He is such a dork. Joan fell on the barbwire (taking care of the Maytag and script reading issues) and Crane ran right over her.
Have you noticed Joan has a way of finding things out that go on in the office and it sure seemed obvious that her relationship with Roger changed when he had the heart attack with the *twin*
Peggy’s priest is out of line using a confessional against her and I hope she doesn’t go to church next Sunday.
Let's be revisionist:
"Cheat on you, Betts? Sure, all the time, starting with while we were in that short engagement before we got married. Who do you think was Juanita's first john? Only taken a few breaks since then. But I've been faithful to you in my own way, screwing only one other woman at a time."
"Any further questions?"
People wonder why Don didn't tell the truth when asked. Responding truthfully would be a real loser of an idea and wouldn't have helped the situation a darn bit. Just pushed Betty to ask for an immediate divorce which is not what Don wants.
Since Betty didn't get any answers from Don or from snooping through his stuff, do you think she will ask Bobbie herself? That would be an interesting conversation. I would love to see it. Do you think is she did, Bobbie would deny it or would she admit every sordid detail and throw it in Betty's face?
I kind of looked at the chair destruction as starting out with pent up frustration and anger, but being symbolic of the "foundation" or "support" of Don and Betty's marriage being rickety and unsound, so she was "smashing it to bits".
Don will get his revenge on that asshat Unfunny Jimmy! Nobody shatters Don's "dream" life and comes out unscathed!
when the priest started taking off his clothes, i was afraid for a second that under that front bib and collar, he was really a woman with breasts.
or then, he was going to look at a dirty magazine hidden in his guitar case.
instead he just starts strumming and "singing" that awful folk song.
crazy thoughts, but you never now with this show!
I think Betty used the leftover chair legs to kill Peggy's and Don's baby.
I think it's a miracle Don slept on the couch unscathed without Betty taking a chair leg to his head!
How will Betty feel when her menu is put in women's magazines??? She will feel even more made fun of. The fact is that Don doesn't see her as anything more that the perfect wife. He doesn't want to believe that she feels. He saw it first hand now and doesn't know how to deal with it. He could deal with it before because he didn't have to go home to it....he could just up and leave (Rachel, Midge, Bobbie) but now he must deal w/ the reality of what he's done face to face. He deals w/ it the best he knows how...he lies.
Notice how the women's hair is getting smaller and somewhat softer? Joan towering inferno is lower and more angled off the crown. Peggy's pony is shorter and Betty's flip is less rigid.
Harry Crane never seemed more competent and will make the television department a big success.
Peggy does not receive communion because she cannot confess her sin. That was different from today when Catholics believe they can give themselves absolution by an act of contrition. Fr. Gill is reminiscent of the young priests of that era who anguished over their vows and eventually left the Church. Both he and Peggy are the young generation living through the cultural changes that gave way to Vatican II.
Joan, like Peggy, is experiencing the gradual change of the role of women in the workplace. Though later than Peggy, Joan is is starting to realize her business acumen. Both characters are primed to be future women libbers.
Betty also is absorbing the changing times and becoming bored in the role of a Stepford suburban wife. Her reaction to Don's philandering is timeless, but she has an overall distaste with her life, and what it means.
Don is just a Dude.
Ofcourse Joan is pregnant! Her fiance gave it away when he said that she should be eating bonbons for her "cravings." And it was foreshadowed by Joan herself when she told Roger that she knew the date that he would propose (because she would turn up pregnant then). I knew immediately that this woman would be pregnant in connection with her doctor boyfriend.
Also, they are showing how wide she is becoming for a reason. She and Peggy are in the same predicament in more ways than one and will soon become allies, even though Joan once chided her on being foolish. Now it's Joan who wants to work with the guys, get recognized for it (remember how she hated on Peggy and told her to not forget where she came from) and she's also having a baby!
And their decline will be due in great part to people like Don (the man in the grey flannel suit) Peggy (the good girl) and Joan (the sexpot) who feel trapped in the roles that society told them were the path to fulfillment and happiness.
I see another kind of decline in the Sixties to come:
Don (grey flannel suit) = too Establishmentarian (
"dont trust anybody over 30", I believe was the expression)
Peggy (the good girl) = upcoming Sexual Revolution
Joan (the sexpot) = being married by age X and sprouting off 2.7 kids and living behind the white picket fence will no longer be a requisite for women.
I will ruin him,....comes to mind. Don's drinking that Heineken planning his revenge I'm sure. I doubt very seriously he's going to mend his ways. And enough of the go Betty stuff for the Oprah crowd. Lets see, Tony Soprano and Don Draper, are great husbands that don't cheat on their wives, and don't lie and are great family men. They go to work and come home, play with the kids and smoke a pipe. What interesting characters they would be.... I don't want to watch Father Knows Best. Both characters go to work in a world based on lies and deception. Advertising is predicated on lies, no small wonder that it stands to reason SC best man is a great liar, cheat, a fraud and is a morally bankrupt individual. Let pour a drink and rejoice in that and call it a day.
I ask the Lord, "Help Don find his way!"
Back into Rachels pants.
I'm not sure why so many people seemed to have misinterpreted Betty's breaking that chair. She went to polish it, was rickety. She pushed it around a little and since it seemed to be unfixable, she decided to break it up into small pieces that would fit into the garbage. It was just a thing that happens in everyday life, nothing Freudian about it, IMO.
Thanks to the posters for clearing up that song - I was a kid at that time but I remember the lyrics well, just not the right group.
I think people are applying today's lack of respect for Catholic priests to 1962. Father Gill is a young priest, fresh from Rome, assigned temporarily to this parish. He undoubtedly feels that Peggy has been placed in his path by God so that he, Fr. Gill, can help her save her soul. That was a firm belief in those days - people actually believed they had souls and would be rewarded or punished for their actions and behaviors. So different from today with Oprah and all the pop psychologists telling us there is no sin and we can blame everything on the parents and teachers who didn't meet our needs.
Lay off Father Gill, please. Don is a demonstrated s**t stain and yet people are on here defending his selfishness, lies and deceit. Peggy obviously needs help and Fr. Gill is trying to give her that.
I want Joan to be happy. She needs to get rid of that doctor. BTW, the didn't wash his hands before eating. What is Joan going to do about Jane, Draper's new secretary, who got so sassy with Joan in Episode 7? I want Joan to crush her.
Betty breaking the chair into bitty pieces is what she wants to do to Don Juan.
I find the Viagra commercials entertaining. Same for the free credit report dot com commercials (esp. the rapper party and the wife doing laundry in the basement).
The chair had it coming. I'm also pretty sure that Betty just likes to ride her horse to the point of exhaustion... for exercise! Yes! And she shoots at the neighbor's pigeons because she wants to safely scare them away from the yard! No bottled up rage there, folks.
Greensweater: LOL!
Chopin 47: I can't understand what attraction Madmen holds for you.
NancyStowOH: Yes. I thought I was the only one
who noticed that Joan is getting larger.
Also, I thought it fit, especially for the times.
Someone please explain the significance of Betty breaking the dining room chair ?
Hi LaurieB! I know this was many posts ago, but, I have to respond!! I am so glad you brought up those stupid Viagra ads!
And what is the deal with the Cialis ads? The ad always ends with the couple sitting in 2 tubs? I can't figure that one out! Maybe they are saying that even with "shrinkage" from the water the Cialis will work?
Of course, I have to try to find the humor in everything...I laughed so hard when the disclaimer at the end of the ad says"if you have problems with vision" call your doctor right away. The first thing I thought was; the Nuns were right...you'll go blind from too much sex!!
12345Michael54321,
You entirely miss the point of the story. Joan could not tell Roger or Harry she was interested in the job because THEY NEVER TOLD HER THEY WERE MAKING A POSITION. Roger said to Harry, "Let's let the secretaries get back to their little jobs" or something like and "hire someone and give HIM 150 a week."
Joan couldn't speak up because she didn't know about it until the guy was hired and in the office. The casual way that Harry mentioned it to Joan was supposed to convey to the viewers how this was "accepted" practice at that time. Any working woman from that time can tell you stories about similar situations.
chopin47: Thanks fo the post on Father Gill. It is true - many priests back then actually believed in God, Heaven and Hell, Redemption, Salvation..in short the faith.
His duty as a priest is to save her soul.
I am still not over Joan having her heart broken.
The tears welling up in her eyes. Man she drives me totally insane.
I hate Harry Crane. I would comment on Betty but her behavior hits to close to home!!!
jamm54....
The conversation you overheard as Betty's guests exited the living room en route to the dining room was, "...Rogers & Cowen. It's a good place to be right now."
Then Roger turned to Don and remarked, "He does everything he is supposed to do..." as a compliment to how Duck does his thing with Crab to fulfill his job duties.
Translation/transcription courtesy of the caption capability on my tv....I never trust my hearing...lol
carrieb, lorantscan, dixiegirl,zerelda, Chopin, JamieK,gobarack, Dalva:
I agree with all of you about Betty seeing
the Jimmy Barrett commercial.
But I would like to say that I thought also it was the end of the "Gaslight" thing...meaning Betty no longer would be considered a "nut" (Better Utz then Nuts).
NancyStowOH I see what you are saying.
Visan, Jamie K: I agree with what you are saying.
GuySmiley: Exactly. The "people of color" here and there highlight their invisibility to society. And though not entirely invisible these days, still to a degree...
12345Michael54321: Yes absolutely. And as each movement occurs in society, we will see "smidgens" of it on the show.
They have already had youth on the show (talking about what they wanted..brought in to learn about
youth and how to catch their attention)...
Women are already starting to see their lives beyond what is acceptable for them (Betty and the divorced lady and her neighbor who was cheated on...Peggy being more sexual and assertive...Joan being more than her body and charm...etc)
Interracial romance. Possible gay romance.
They will show more things.
I would like them to also go to Mexico and maybe
Don could meet the Chinese lady again...
or hey! Space Exploration was big...let some Martians appear and come work at the agency and have even more secret lives than Don and Peggy! LOL
Thinking about the title...A Night to Remember...
Boys and girls dancing around one another,
not sure about themselves or where they fit in
with each other...
All dressed up and excited but the pay off is
not as good as the build up (all the women and their disappointments).
Hmmm...
Hi Maddicts! Does anyone remember when Fr. Gill was trying to get a confession out of Peggy? She said you wouldn't understand (paraphrasing). His response was, " I wasn't born a priest you know".
As if to say, "I'm human too".
I think his song at the end was in a way praying for strength from God.
Hey any Peter, Paul and Mary fans remember probably one of the most frequently played Christen wedding songs? I'm not positive, but, I think Paul Stookey was raised a Catholic.
Bocaratonfan I agree with you about the priest issue..
Even priests today seem a bit standoffish...
Colin Hanks' priest is certainly very modern.
Madwomen: Hooray! You said many of the things I wanted to....
I am only 36 but my mother told me a lot of that and I have read about it too.
And YES...in that episode I ssooooooooooo wanted Peggy to speak up and say, "as an actual woman"...but she is timid.
I sympathize because I have always mostly been a Peggy (except for the whole lying about a child part LOL).
Also, i wish I had been on here when everyone else was about that...
But answer me honestly...do you think ALL women have only a Jackie O (Jackie K at that time lol) or a Marilyn in them..?.
Personally I have some Shirley McClaine, Whoopi Goldberg, and Tera Patrick mixed in too...lol
I am so angry at Don and detest how he continues to lie to Betty's face. He's really good at the denial thing. If I see him exit another room by showing his profile and lowering one shoulder and swinging his leg like Festus I'll scream. It's a little mac-daddy pimp exit...and it makes me ill. I don't want to go on a rant, so instead I will post little tidbits that can be batted around.
Did anyone see that Jane's desk is empty and her chair was pushed in? Someone is covering her desk because she announced Betty's call that told Don not to come home. The pictures for next episode show Jane back on the job, so we will see who won the battle.
Pete is skipping behind Duck now, but he still is behind the 'big boys'..."Who is Rogers & Cowen?" Never quite up to par, is he?
Joan's mistake was not negotiating for her work ahead of time. A lot of women have run into her situation...I know I have, multiple times. The entire time, the men involved did not give Joan's candidacy a thought. Harry is oblivious to what he did because all men were this way. I feel for her. She is stuck in her sexual image. Peggy is stuck in hers, too (undercover nun). Betty is stuck in her sexual image (motherhood).
I hate the Joan is pregnant threads, but why would her fiance tell her she needs to "soothe her cravings?"
Most men of the day did not help in the kitchen, either. Don lounged on the couch while Betty and Carla worked to clean up the aftermath.
Betty never did understand why they were laughing at her expense. I had a husband that tried to belittle me and my understanding, too. To this day my 'hot' button is to be left out of anything....to be excluded deliberately as if I were a child or incapable of understanding.
Betty was an exceptional hostess. The place settings, and menu were top notch. She was a caring guide to Carla, too. I was watching for this. I am also relieved that Betty poured the wine...to see Carla do this would have spiked my irritation and taken away from the story they were telling.
Didn't want this to be a long post, and look what happened! By the next new episode (9/29), this thread will be over 1200 posts. Don't forget to watch the Emmys. Next years nominations will include this episode.
Betty seemed very upset that Don "knew" her so well that she would buy the Heineken beer. I think she told him not to come home, just to let him know that maybe he doesn't know her as well as he thinks he does! I think they will patch things up again. I don't see Betty striking out on her own. I think she was just making a point with Don.
That's an interesting viewpoint on Betty's sensitivity to being laughed at, greytone. I thought she might be feeling rather paranoid and a fool, after the Jimmy Barrett "confession speculations". But, being treated like a child gets to be old. Even today, you'll find that happens - depends on the marriage.
A friend of mine married a guy about 20 years her senior when she was in her early 20s. She was your classic, femmy, demure, submissive type of woman. When she hit her 30's, wham! Acting like a child or being treated like one in the marriage, and "daddy" ran the show/had all the answers wasn't going over very big anymore. There is something about hitting your 30's where you know you're not a kid anymore, and what you settled for or tolerated in your 20's, you're not going to in your 30's.
Just an FYI, I noticed 'Jimmy' in the movie "Something's Gotta Give" with Keaton/Nicholson the other day. Towards the end while rehearsing for the play, he asks Keaton about the script. Check it out.
I'm not so sure that Don is the rotten bastard most seem to think he is. I think he is Ken and Betty is Barbie. And in that sense, they are both doomed to some dissatisfaction in their marriage. There are no heros and no villains. In his work, though, Don is a kind of genius. His psychological insight is what feeds his incredible creativity. He is able to know exactly what Betty will do in a shopping environment. He says "I use our life all the time, that's part of my job." When she goes through his pockets, all she finds are cocktail napkins with advertising ideas scribbled on them. His riffs on the Kodak projector, Lucky Strike, Right Guard, and so on, are incredible. Many of Don's characteristics and the stories about the products are taken from (I think) The Mirror Makers: A History Of American Advertising And Its Creators by Stephen Fox. There is even a well-known figure named Draper Daniels, a creative director at the famous Leo Burnett Agency. Daniels wrote a book entitled Giants, Pygmies, and Other Advertising People. Chicago: Crain Publications, 1974. It's hard to find now.
The song at the end of the show is
Peter, Paul, and Mary- Early In The Morning
It is on iTunes.
Back to McMere's comment, "I'm not so sure that Don is the rotten bastard most people seem to think he is." I am new to the show, but the origins of Don's illicit sexuality seemed clear to me in the episode where, on a train, a woman proposes, "Leave the boy in the box behind. Let me buy you a drink." That experience seemed to initiate his use of sexuality to forget the person he left behind. It seems that he keeps his sex life as compartmentalized as his prior life. I've noticed that he most often calls upon his mistresses when he becomes distressed by a reminder of his former self. It is easy to disapprove of his behavior on the moral grounds that he is married, but I think that for him sex serves as a catharsis. The rest of us just have a hard time compartmentalizing sex and love.
The "cravings" comment is just a part of the overall plan that the MD has for Joan. Women's lib was preceeded by the Pill -- putting control of reproduction into the hands of women for the first time. I don't think it's a minor coincidence that the first scene of the first episode had Joan referring Peggy to her gyno. Birth control represents the first crack in the armor of patriarchal society, and the women of SC have the perfect vantage point to see through the hollow shell.
Joan sees her path unfolding, and despite her uncertainty she'll follow through with it because that's what she needs to do. The string of slights she's received could only reinforce that idea. Pregnancy will become an issue when her new husband makes her stop taking the pill.
Also, Joan is 33. Her metabolism ain't what it used to be.
....I think the "cravings" comment was more suggestive than literal..... like this light-weight Yoo-Hoo is telling Joan what she should be doing with her life, and suddenly she can barely remember to set the table and get his water.
This night to remember, Joan's mind is on Joan. She is realizing a husband and house in the country is like a Monet - it's great from far away, but not so good close up.
She is another example in this of women wanting more....of changes that are coming.
Betty saw the Utz commercial in a way that she would normally see Jimmy; i.e., charming, funny, flirting, the actor, spaztic almost. Then by watching the commercial (he is the same way) she remembers his total seriousness, his total honesty, sincerity. She then snaps and it dawns on her that he was telling the truth.
Joan's fiance came home with take out, she hadn't set the table, and she didn't remember to bring him water. WELL....she waits on people all day at work. Possibly in the begining of their relationship he was more attentive to her and that was why she fell for him. Now, like usually happens, he wants to be waited on. Joan has shown great leadership qualities in the office and should have gotten that position that was given to that MAN. She was so excited about the work it broke my heart when she was passed over but that's how it was and that is what brought about whole "Women's Lib Movement.
Betty's figured Don out. Even thought she didn't find anything incriminating, (Boy, Don's slick), she had what Jimmy told her. Also, Don tried sloughing her off, "I can't talk to you when you're like this" or words to that effect. I took it as though Don just stopped short of calling her crazy. What really set her off was seeing Jimmy's Utz commercial. "What, am I nuts?" That was what made it click. She knew that Don was a dog and would try to say she was crazy, loco, cookoo, a loon. "What proof or evidence" he asked her. Sewing doubt, hoping she'll break down and apologize to him. That's the kind of sick bastard Don is. Dipping in to all these gals on the side and then calling her bluff. When she crept up on him while he was on the couch, I heard the music from Psycho, I thought she was going to stab Don in his sleep. Btw, I think Hitchcock would have loved January Jones! Yeah, a wife accusing a husband of cheating and getting violent about it would get locked up and doped up in the funny farm. Betty realizes this and just tells Don to get lost. Who can Don turn to? He doesn't have any real friends. Roger? Heck, he made a pass for Betty. Cooper? Duck ? Not likely. Don won't be confessing to a priest either.
@Stephanie Jo: I saw Jimmy in an episode of Burn Notice on USA this weekend. His charter's name was.... Jimmy.
When Betty stepped on the glass in the bedroom I thought she was going to hurt herself. Sally coming in to find her mother lying with here elbow and arm covering her eyes was a familiar scene. My mother did that a lot, and I remember worrying about her. Can you imagine the anxiety the kids feel watching their mother break a dining room chair into bits?
I missed the Psycho music as background. I don't watch a lot of movies, so I guess I miss a lot. Thanks everyone for the tie-ins.
I agree with a_mob_hit...
The key to Betty's revelation was the phrase, "What, am I nuts?" in the commercial. She then knew that he was trying to make her believe she was crazy and had imagined it all. Her step forward was realizing she was not crazy, and Don was continuing to lie to her.
greytone: There wasn't any Psycho music.. Only in my head. Lol.
Sal's wife, is she the smittened switchboard operator from last season, or someone new?
Does anyone know the name and original artist of the song at the close of this episode?
donadenese: No, that was Lois, the secretary that Don recently fired. Sal's wife is Kitty, from his hometown of Baltimore.
Jamm54: On another thread I said something similar. I think Joan will get a job offer from one of the clients and will make Roger give her a counter-offer to stay at SC. The doctor's days are numbered. Brilliant job at showing Joan's gradual "awakening." I do think she has been influenced by Peggy, and vice versa. "Whoever is before you is your teacher."
Greytone: You made me remember something painful from my childhood. I would often come home from school to find that my mother hadn't been out of bed all day. I didn't know the word "depression" back then, but I knew that my mommy didn't always act like other mommies. This show is striking close to home.
The song that Father Gil plays at the end of the episode is called "Make Love Stay" by Dan Fogelberg. It can be found on his Greatest Hits album on Amazon.com.
mcmere---Draper Daniels of Leo Burnett? Love it! Check out their website leoburnett.com. Whoever designed it is a genius.
I guess I'm so smitten with Don Draper that I can't see him as some sort of jerk who is getting what he deserves. I see him as a complicated character, hard to figure out but with reasons for what he does. I couldn't help but feel sorry for him in the last scene where he is sitting in the break room alone.....But as I wrote earlier, I think he'll be back home soon. Betty is trying to make a point.
Regarding Peggy: I did not say she killed her baby intentionally - I think she accidentally caused it some harm and now feels terrible guilt. She simply looks too upset in that last scene for it to have merely been that she had premarital sex. Even for the early 60s, I simply do not see sex or pregnancy being the source of her apparent terror and shame.
And by the way, "Jeez- get a clue" is not the most cogent argument I have ever heard.
Love all the comments!
Did anyone think the same thing as I did on this?
When Duck came to the door with flowers I thought he and Betty had a little "moment". He is lonely and admires Betty as a lovely lady. She did not really notice him but I think the story line would be interesting if these two somehow found each other! I think Duck would become a NEW man with the right woman...
I don't think Betty likes her son at all. She seems to always be yelling at him. And I really wish everyone would stop calling Sally fat or "chubby". She looks fine to me and you are going to give that cute little girl ( the actress) a complex.
Mr. Hendrix (as in Jimmy?) another poster determined that the song at the close of the show was a Peter Paul and Mary tune fcalled "Early in the Morning" from the Peter, Paul, and Mary album. Scroll up to Cad Man (Mad Magagine cover guy character picture) and you can get the lyrics as well.
bocaratonfan- Boobs under the priest's collar???? A dirty magazine???? You're kidding right?
Betty breaking the chair-
I only saw one other post that made mention of the furniture polish on the dining room table. My neighbor and I (another MM fan) discussed this on our walk this morning. I remembered seeing the bottle, but she also made the connection of the label of the polish saying "Pride". You see it very clearly as the camera pans back and Betty has just finished breaking the chair apart. The connection to the broken chair and Betty's broken pride is clear. No one trashes a wobbly chair into pieces just to make it fit in the garbage better! That was a nice chair that just needed a little re-gluing. It was just a reminder of something she wanted Don to address before the dinner party, which being pissed at him at the time was enough to set her off. It makes sense that she lost it on the chair.
Haven't any of you ever broken something irrationally because you were pissed about something completely different?
An example of this that comes to mind for me was tripping over one of my my son's trucks in the hallway that I had many times asked him to pick up. It killed my toe, I was tired and stressed at the time, and out of anger I kicked the metal truck into the wall which broke a hole in our drywall the week before we were putting our house on the market. My husband was so pleased. Hey, it happens!
I'm just wondering if Attention Deficit Theater will give a voice to the chair. If so, it might be saying, "Dammit woman! I'm not the one who cheated on you! Go kick your husband's ass and leave me alone!"
The song Father Gil plays on his guitar is a Paul Stookey composition entitled "Early In The Morning". It is the very first cut Peter, Paul and Mary's self-titled 1962 debut album. Nice choice to end this episode. Each of the characters carry burdens or that leave them at an crossroads; each uncertain of the direction ahead.
http://www.lyricsdownload.com/peter-paul-and-mary-early-in-the-morning
The song Father Gil plays on his guitar is a Paul Stookey composition entitled "Early In The Morning". It is the very first cut on Peter, Paul and Mary's self-titled 1962 debut album. Nice choice to end this episode. Each of the characters carry burdens or that leave them at an crossroads; each uncertain of the direction ahead and in need of something to help heal the wounds.
http://www.lyricsdownload.com/peter-paul-and-mary-early-in-the-morning
Wills46er- Agree that this is a good choice, but then again I have always loved Peter , Paul and Mary. I sang many of their songs as a kid. "Puff the Magic Dragon" and "If I Had a Hammer" were my favs though. I just played their "10 Years Together" album today on my Curtis Mathis console stereo. Nothing sounds better than tube stereo off an original album.
I hope ADT comes out soon. I need another fix!
Swanky, you're right. She broke the chair out of frustration, not to make it smaller for the garbage. I could see her pursing her lips just a little and huffing a bit. It was a very controlled little meltdown, but, she IS Nordic.
I can't imagine how she held out that long after she heard the truth from Jimmy and that she was actually planning a lovely dinner party for the lying bastard. I would have told him to take his buddies to Burger King and he can shove a Whopper where the sun don't shine while he's at it! The chair incident shows she was just barely holding onto her emotions, and the beer was just the final straw. I'm glad that she finally stood up for her self, but it sure took a long time!
.....I was a little Catholic, living next door to our church's Peter, Paul and Mary, so I got this shit all day, all night, and in between.
If I had a fucking hammer. The answer (thanks, Bob Z.) is blowing in the dad-blament wind.
This train. Is bound for Glory, this train.
This train, is bound for Glory....
you get the idea. very inspirational. and thirty years of therapy.
Confound it!
Regarding Joan's being passed over for a job that she was doing quite well....we have to stop viewing that scene through the lens of 2008 (which makes us both indignant and sad for her) and put on our cat eye glasses of 1962. Then we can be happy that she discovered a gift and talent that she didn't even know she had (and realized that she actually understands the business she has been supporting for years). Perhaps she'll use those skills in the future when her marriage to the dull and unappreciative doctor falls apart.
Harry wasn't being insensitive in this context. It wouldn't have even crossed his mind to consider the office manager--who was so vital to the running of SC --for this role. That's not a conversation with Sterling and/or Cooper he can even imagine. Moving Joan into this new role would have been all together different than moving a junior secretary over to copy writing as in Peggy's case. Besides he probably knew about her engagement and figured she was a short-timer anyway.
And while it was a bit jarring for Joan to realize that she was being replaced in this role (once she trained her replacement), it was just the way things were then. She never thought to protest or complain. Yeah, Harry could have been a bit more appreciative that she "helped out" as much as she did, but then he's used to being supported by women to get his job done. My $.02
I really enjoy this show, and I get enormous pleasure reading these comments afterwards. You folks can zoom in on things I missed, you can think up the most amazing "what if" scenarios, and pose the most interesting questions. I also love hearing your memories from your lives during that time period. I wonder if the creative folks who work on Mad Men ever read these comments - they are missing so much if they do not. Thanks to you all for sharing your thoughts with the rest of us!
So you OD'ed on Peter, Paul and F***ing Mary Dry Manhattan? Too funny! I thought "Blowin' In the Wind" was a Bob Dylan original, but maybe not. I know PP&M sang it too.
I didn't get this stuff to that extreme. I grew up more in the 70's so this stuff was more camp fire songs by then.
...visan and hotcho......interesting thoughts.....
nancystowoh (oh?)
don just lost all his power points.
swanky, yeah, i was totally kidding about the priest with breasts and a dirty magazine in his guitar case.
Did the end of the show throw you into a flashback? Is it like PTSD for folks songs you heard too much of?
bocaratonfan- I thought you were kidding, but like you said, you never know for sure!
I've put up an old video of Peter, Paul and Mary singing this great hit from their album: http://cantara.vox.com/library/post/early-in-the-morning.html
Dry Manhattan- Okay I'll stop making fun at your expense.
the overly earnest folk music movement, and all its social overtones, were so tiresome and pedantic. even "puff the magic dragon" had too much of a message.
meld that with religion and you have a cosmic yawn on your hands. boring!
but weren't people starting to look for "meaning" beyond the traditions of established institutions in those days? and like all malcontents and revolutionaries, they dismantle or hobble the existing order and replace it with an entrenched order of their own, perhaps with a different style and a different set of "do's and don'ts".... just as repressive as the old, if not more so. they take over as the new power structure and begin telling everyone what to do.
that's why it's important to be skeptical of anyone promoting "change".
Excellent post, bocaratonfan. They take over and "change" things--except as in the past, some are "more equal" than others....