O.K. so I posted an open thread also and now can't find it, so if you all find it and I'm repeating myself , Im sorry. Random comments, Joan's engaged. Rachel Katz! Loved her comments about "working with Don". Surprising Peggy comes to the rescue.Loved that Don ordered steak tar tar for Bobbie the lioness. Peggy's flash back in the hospital. Like I said random thoughts no insight at this point, will come later. They did mention Monroe. Some one predicted this a few weeks ago. For all you doubters about Laying the ground work , it's paying off! This is as far as I am in the show .
1) rachel is back and with a new man! I am so happy that I was right about her return (visan and I are all smiles)
2) what about Pegs coming to the rescue for don
3) anita was pregnant that year- where is that child?
4) the conversations between pegs and bobbie was very interesting. A big one for me was how bobbie inquired on the relationship between pegs and don (insight please)
5) how about trudy and pete (poor trudy)
6) don knows peggy's secret- no wonder he called her
1) rachel is back and with a new man! I am so happy that I was right about her return (visan and I are all smiles)
2) what about Pegs coming to the rescue for don
3) anita was pregnant that year- where is that child?
4) the conversations between pegs and bobbie was very interesting. A big one for me was how bobbie inquired on the relationship between pegs and don (insight please)
5) how about trudy and pete (poor trudy)
6) don knows peggy's secret- no wonder he called her
Very implausable that Don would call Peggy to bail him out. Why not call Roger? There's been nothing established so far to make us think that Peggy is in anyway his confidant.
Frighgigh-Did you see the flashback of Don at Peggy's bedside? I believe that was to show that their relationship became more than just boss and underling. Sure more will unfold.
Maybe Don called Peggy because he knew Peggy could forget all about it after it was over. And completely forget it. Roger probably would bring it again. After Don visited Peggy in the hospital I think that made them confidences, in some way. So the big question is, is the little boy we saw earlier in the season Peggy's, or her sisters? If it was in fact Peggy's were is Anita's child?
The little blond boy is obviously Peggy's sister's baby since she was pregnant in the flashback scene. Where is Peggy's baby? Given up for adoption? We've been duped!
I like the introduction of health problems, especially high blood pressure since this is more realistic. Additionally, I really like the ending to this episode. Don's life is slowly deconstructing. The episodes show a cascade of a dissolution of the 1950s mentality and an emergence of the late 60s mentality (i.e., women's lib, hippie and anti-materialsim culture, etc). I am hoping that this film mentions some of the key turning points when this happens, such as the kennedy assisination, mario savio's speech at berkely, and the formation of SDS. I am expecting that Roger Sterling's daughter will touch upon some of these themes since in the last episode she expressed wanting to reject mainstream values (a traditional wedding) and wanting to adopt a more liberal lifestyle. Also, I hope they show Bob Dylan singing folk in the coffee shops in the village. Wow, I really love the work that the people do on this show. It is truly great to see a depiction of the good, the bad, and the ugly side of this era.
Now get the new girl comment. Joan's comment, There's still plenty to see" Love the zipper playing Mozart, even though I couldn't hear it.This one is the best yet. Bobbies comment to Peggy ,"You're never going to get that corner office untill you start treating Don as your equal. And no one will tell you this but can't be a man ,don't even try , Powerful bussinss when done correctly.
In Three Sundays, Anita told Peggy that "The State of New York didn't think so." Perhaps Peggy's child was given up for adoption because she had had a mental breakdown. And here we thought Anita was a saint for looking after her sister's child!
The boy is likely her sister's and Peggy's child is likely a ward of the state as in Episode 2 the State of New York determined Peggy wasn't mentally fit to keep the child.
Anita was pregnant in the flashback?!
So the baby isn't Peggy's?
This is going to be the unravelling of Dick/Don all over again ( in that it's going to be SLOW)
I knew it was going to be Peggy he called, but I never imagined Don knew about her.
The Bobbie/Peggy conversations were very interesting. I wonder how this will affect Peggy's relationship with Don.
Judging from the flashback, Don knows at least part of Peggy's secret and he promoted her. She's in his debt.
While Roger would understand, he is Don's boss and it would give him power over Don. Also, I wouldn't quite trust Roger to keep a secret, if only because of his drinking.
Judging from the flashback, Don knows at least part of Peggy's secret and he promoted her. She's in his debt.
While Roger would understand, he is Don's boss and it would give him power over Don. Also, I wouldn't quite trust Roger to keep a secret, if only because of his drinking.
I also just saw in Peggy's flashback that Anita was pregnant. So I'll chim in with everyone else: where is her baby? I thought she was raising Peggy's as her own?
How awesome was it when Peggy called Don by his first name? Good for her! Now if she could just get a new hairstyle. ;)
I love Don...but he disappoints me in every episode with his complete inability to NOT have sex with nearly every woman. And cut back on that smoking! Man! Do/did people reallllllllllly smoke that much?
Question: either on the recap of what has already happened in Season 2, or maybe it was in the clips of what is to come, but somewhere I saw Pete telling Cooper that Don is really Dick. Did this happen already, and when? I've seen every episode in Season 2 and have not seen that.
This is currently my favorite show and I cannot understand why some of my friends and family are not crazy about it!
Also, i think the advertising for this show is very clever...obviously it must be older men who must be watching based on the commercials...BMW, Viagra, Jack Daniels, etc. IT's kind of funny since i'm an early 20s chick.
I got it, Anita had a pillow in her stomach, so she could pull off it was her baby? Hmm, what an interesting episode, saw that accident coming, and Peggy and Don with the secrets...intriguing. Thought maybe Bobbie would send Peggy something for her hospitality. Hate that Joan is engaged, she still is HOT for Roger, its all a cover up. The new girl will bring some heavy competition for Joan. Once again, love, love, love this show!
This episode more than made up for last weeks! AMC announced at the break that next week they will be having the five episodes from season 2 in a marathon format. Is there a break in the filming again?
How could Anita know to hide a pillow in her stomach to pull off the baby, if Peggy didn't even know she was pregnant? Peggy wasn't in the hospital for that long. I don't think Anita could pull off a super fast pregnancy.
Vgrace,
Yes Pete opened a personal package of Don's from his late brother and found out he was someone else. He threatened to go to boss with info so he could get a promotion (Duck's job). But, it backfired in the end.
Vgrace, yes I loved it when Peggy called Don by his first name, she is starting already to take Bobbies advice. ALso, I think with Pete telling Cooper was a flashback to season 1, that defiantely didn't happen this year.
I am with you on the friends and family not tuning in? I am saying fine then, don't watch my show.HA!
Yeah...I'm more than done with Bobbie. She is overused....in many ways.
Ahhhh....good thinking gage....maybe Anita did stuff her stomach so it would seem that the baby was hers.....
Guess I'll be watching the Marathon next week for all the parts and nuances I seem to have missed! I've also been renting the First Season to recap and catch any episodes or pieces I missed! (And to drool over the clothing and accessories!)
the scene you are wondering about was from the last episode of season one. one of the many climactic moments of the first season. pete tried to frame don by revealing to cooper that don wasn't who he claimed to be. cooper's response was "who cares?"
I'm thinking that Anita and Peggys mom knew she had the kid, and quick play off Anita is pg and then take the baby home. Silly, but its kinda a thought?!
For the poster who stated the liked the fly zipper rendition of Mozart, I did not. It seems a very sophmoric thing to do - VERY sophmoric, and frankly, what was the point? That's a rhetorical question. I mean, we've all seen these types of antics but come on, that was inane and thrown in for some sort of gratuitous shock value, at least in my opinion. Also, I don't think Don would EVER want Peggy to have on him what she now does, regardless of the fact he may know about her baby. No man in his right mind (one in Don's position anyway) would want a woman employee with THAT kind of power! Don has WAY more to lose than Peggy should Peggy ever spill the beans. They are not equals in business or in life, and Don is not THAT stupid! I think it would have been more logical that he would have called Roger Sterling. However, this episode is the best so far. However, strange AMC is ALREADY running a MM Marathon with only five episodes shown; I wonder if the ratings might be down a little and they are trying to bring those who tuned into the Olympics up to snuff? Or again, perhaps ratings are not where they need to be.
Okay, I didn't see all of Season 1 but Peggy didn't even know that she was pregnant????? I know that happens....but come on....she is no dummy. And I guess if her family also didn't know then how could Anita stuff her shirt....hmmmm
Oh and how about the new secretary for Don? Looks like she is Joan's competition for male attention! And just after Joan says that a professional atmosphere needs to be maintained that weird man comes out and plays Mozart on his pant zipper. haha!
What's so incredible about this time era is how dramatic the changes truly are, in such a short time frame. So I think and rea01 has hit the nail on the head. Think about what happens from the early 60's to the late 60's. So much of it has informed the world in which we currently live. And it's entirely possible we're going through a similar wave right now. I think the characters to watch are Peggy and Pete. They'll be dealing with issues of single parenthood, equality in the workplace, and of understanding popular values. For a man to say "Look at all the things having a baby means?" foreshadows the whole "me" obsession of the 60's. For a woman to say "I wasn't invited to that meeting" talks to the issues of women being taken seriously in the work force. Don is the old guard, trying to figure out what is wrong with his system of doing things...it'll be interesting to see how his story plays out. When he initially made the call to Peggy to bail him out, I knew he was aware of her baby.
The marathon starts at 5 so there could still be a new episode at 10. It is a holiday weekend, though, so maybe not. They did show previews-did they say next week or not?
Thought it was funny how Don didn't even think of the $ he put Peggy out for. Geez, how bout Rachael?! Would have never guessed she was married. Who the heck did Don send that poem off too....hmmm Midge? Don't think that Pete and Trudy will last. I am also sick of that Bobby already!
In the confession, Anita said she had to take care of the baby!? What is all this talk about the whereabouts of Peggy's baby?? I haven't seen the episode so excuse me if I don't quite understand what's being said.
I don't understand the pillow theory. in that flashback scene the baby was already born and something was already done with it. probably given up for adoption. what would stuffing a pillow in Anitas dress accomplish?
Don called on Peggy because he "has something" on her and he already knows she's devoted to him. Now she has something on him. She also knows he will tend to punish her for this secret knowledge - keep her in her place, start treating her like a secretary rather than a writer - let's see what happens - will she seek out Bobbi for advice?
ldraper-I don't drink them either but there's so many cocktails on this show, it's getting harder to resist! You did say you were tired-just joshin' with ya.
When they flashbacked to Peggy in the hospital Anita and her mother were standing there and Anita was obviously pregnant.
So, I guess we have to hope for another flashback to figure out exactly where is Peggy's baby and Anita's baby.
I assumed the baby (boy?) at Peggy's mother's house was Peggy's by the way Peggy kind of was awkward with it and ignored it (him?), and Anita (or her mom) asked her if she was going to see the baby or say good bye to the baby. But, then again, it could have been Anita's and Peggy was just awkward because she had a baby, and here is a baby....
I'm a newby to the series and I love it!!! I am having so much fun watching it with my husband, it really gives me something to look forward to, and love getting to spend some time with my husband!!!
Hide a pillow in her stomach? Oh, for heaven's sake, people, watch the show! Don't leave the room. You're missing important parts! Anita has other children, and I think the writers have led us to believe the little blond boy is Peggy's. (the first time we saw him, she was reluctantly saying goodnight at Anita's house) This show continues to surprise us all, and this episode is very revealing.
And if your friends and family don't get it just remember this. The people I know who are Mad Men fans are also incredibly intelligent and insightful. Enjoy!
gage-Rachael turning up married was a surprise, indeed. I don't think Don knew she was married so he may have sent that book to her. Think she had to get married? Remember how she suddenly took off on a cruise last season? Her husband doesn't seem like her type(if Don is her type).
Okay, it was dumb of me to say about the pillow, but I have never seen TWO babies in the new season, so thats what I came up with, a fokin' pillow in Anitas stomach!
I believe that Peggys baby is a boy with that blond hair!
The Peggy storyline is going to be interesting. I wonder if Trudy will ever find out that her husband did father a child, and I wonder if he'll ever know too.
Loved the period details, the Alka Seltzer, the song A Summer Place on the car radio and the ketchup covered meatloaf.
Who does the set decorations? Pete and Trudy's apartment is really cool.
Gage: What happens, I think, is everyone is so intent on getting in their two cents, the same things are repeated over and over and debated to the nth degree! That gets boring. I think some folks overanalyze every nuance and that becomes tedious. It's just a show. Most don't read other's postings, they just post their thoughts, which is fine, but after a while it becomes monotonous. The series was bright tonight, I must admit. I wonder about the ratings, though. Someplace I read they were losing viewers. Now watch someone state we are early in the season, which is really not true as there are only 7 or 8 episodes left of Season Two, not many really. Again, the show is good (to a point) but it it went off the air I will not be surprised.
First time poster so apologies in advance if I ask a repeat question. I did search the past topics but found no answer.
I love the opening for this show but I keep hearing about it being symbolic of Don (corner office, falling, can't really see him - mystery man) but it was my impression that the beginning is actually Pete. I thought it came from the episode when Pete is gunning for Don's job and the corner office. The falling man looks like Roger to me and only the last silhouette of the seated man with the cigarette appears to be Don. Has this been answered? Is it all Don or three men?
Tonight's impressions: FINALLY a justification for Bobbie being there - I saw it as a way to open the door into what happened between seasons with Peggy. Also lets us see a little more of what makes Don tick. Not sure about Anita's belly - either we have lost a baby somewhere (either hers or Peggy's) or she was stuffing for the cover story. They mention Peggy being gone for 3 months so that would be ample time for Anita to pretend.
I still thing Peggy is sweet, yet somewhat naive. I mean she did get down & dirty with Pete in his office, but she seemed so vunerable when she "twisted up" to him at the party and he shooed her away.
She's still dependable Peggy according to Mr. Draper. I don 't think he knows anything about the baby. In the flashback at the hospital, he tells her to forget about whatever happended and get on with her life. The fact that he called her after the car accident says that he trusts her. He's definetly not attracted to her. He see's her as one of the boys. Except she's more mature and dependable.
"Don has WAY more to lose than Peggy should Peggy ever spill the beans. "
I beg to differ Figaro, peggy would have more to lose. We have to remember that this is the 60's and the double standards that to some extent still exist today. As a male, it would be expected for Don to have extramarital affairs, and knowing what we know about Betty, what are the chances she would divorce him and take the kids away? Now Peggy have a baby out of wedlock, and with a married man at that. She would be at more risk of losing her reputation and job rather than Don who is very high up in the company. In addition Pete already went took the blackmail route and Cooper didnt seem to care. We have seen how Don reacts when people try to manipulate/blackmail him so either way you look at it , Don is a pretty difficult man to screw over.
This episode was very insightful. I think that it is quite interesting and surprising that Don know about Peggys pregnancy. I was under the impression that it was Joan who knew everything about everyone, but it turns out Don sees more than we are lead to believe. If he was able to find out that Peggy is pregnant, then there is a good that he was able to know who the father is. If that is the case, that is ammunition he would be able to use against Peter, in case he tries to blackmail him again.
It is also interesting to get a closer look at Bobbie. Did anyone catch the comment in reference to her bruise where she says she was a dancer and met alot 'interesting' people? Was Bobbie a former prostitute? The fact that she is from the bottom would explain why she is a bit rough around the edges and is able to fight dirty. It would also explain her attitude towards Don.
Whatever the case is, she also seems to have feelings for Don, she couldn't stop talking about him or questioning Peggy about their relationship. I have a feeling this could mean bad news for Don in the future. Bobbie is certainly not as modest a Rachael, and doesn't seem to take rejection well.
I think Don would do anything to keep his flings a secret. Betty doesn't play when it comes to cheating. I don't know it she would leave Don, but she would never let him forget it.
Miala: Thanks, but I am sticking by my original opinion. When someone is married with children they ALWAYS have more to lose than some little office worker (ala Peggy). Always. Don makes more, has more, and as a man, will get further. And you know, at this point I will repeat something I stated earlier: It's just a show. We don't really HAVE to "remember" anything, i.e., that it's the sixties or whatever. It's entertainment and as such, we all take away something different, I suppose. I know it's the sixties, I was there too.
So were millions of other Boomers (and those who are NOT Boomers). Again, art is subjective. This is art. We could debate it forever, but then we wouldn't be tending to what we need to in REAL life if we did that! Thanks for your feedback. Time for me to get to bed.
I was shocked when Peggy came to rescue Don, then shocked again when Don came to visit her in the hospital. That makes sense - I wondered how her family explained her absence for that length of time. TB was not common in the early 60s, but it was still around.
I think seeing Peggy's sister pregnant when she and the mother visited Peggy in the hospital supports my idea that the little blonde boy is not Peggy's baby - it's the sister's. We still don't know what happened to Peggy's boy, but he probably was adopted out. I think at the end of this season 2, Pete will know he fathered a child and the hunt will be on to find the little boy so Pete and Trudy can have him.
Don's face when Peggy called him Don was absolutely priceless.
OMG, this show just gets more and more intriguing.
I certainly want Rachel to be back and often.
TO WHOMEVER TAKES CARE OF THIS SITE: The way the threads are set up is confusing - it needs to be done like Law & Order's.
Figaro, I agree , we dissect this show too much. That's why I just throw out thoughts and hope they land somewhere. I get really tired of people taking the most minute facts and expounding at length. But that is what this forum is for. I get insights I wouldn't otherwise have. That's kind of the fun. No?
MMforever on August 24, 2008 11:01 PM
4) the conversations between pegs and bobbie was very interesting. A big one for me was how bobbie inquired on the relationship between pegs and don (insight please)
I think Bobbi doesn't understand a nonsexual relationship with a man. She's used sex to get power and influence and doesn't understand someone like Peggy who is actually interested in working her way up. Yes, Peggy make mistakes her first year at SC, i.e, the Pete thing, but she learned from that and she is intent on building a life. She is also intent on getting respect from her colleagues - which I think she has.
She may also have been asking about Peggy and Don in order to see if Don was the kind of man would use young girls in the office for his pleasure. She did make a comment about him being a decent man, something not expected. I guess she's trying to figure out why Don would call a young woman at the office instead of one of the guys to help him out of a tight spot.
idraper: Have to get to bed. Really do. OK, one more remark from me. Yes, it's fun to a point but it does get boring (as you stated) when people just argue for the sake of argument. Did you see those postings last week about the blue Easter egg?
There were tons of them and they debated the concept of this blue egg for days and days. Also, I get weary of the threads that are nothing more than people's personal recollections of the sixties, the sayings (adages), the moors, what their mothers and fathers drank and how they were punished, whether or not they had an Easter Egg roll at their church, etc., etc.,etc. It seems everyone assumes that if THEY did things a certain way in the sixties, EVERYONE did them that way. Not so, as I am sure you will agree. Anyway, what is the old sage abut "If you remember the sixties (or any decade) you really weren't there!" Night all!
Ok So I love this show and the only other person I know that watches it is my mother. I am so glad I found this blog. I am curious I am 27 and I did not live in that time. Are there any fans my age? Anyway, In regards to Peggy's baby, I think it was in the first or second episode when she went to her sisters and before she left her sis ter said " are you going to say goodnight ( something like that) She walked to the doorrway where the baby was sleeping and she just looked. SO I think the baby is peggy's and I think her sisters baby died and she resents Peggy beasue she haas the job, the baby and her mothers attention. What do you guys think?
Natasha: I keep promising to get to bed and I am doing so after answering your question. Before I do here's something for LoveMM. You don't believe unbuttoning one's blouse was accurate for the sixties?! Come on, where have YOU been? People flirted in the sixties, believe me. They were obvious just as they are today. This is an AD AGENCY NOT a nunnery! The new girl wants attention. Some women DID enjoy it, and believe me, more than you may think! Just because women were downtrodden in the sixties didn't mean they didn't enjoy flirting. So now, Natasha: Peggy had her baby. Peggy's sister adopted it or it was given to her. The sister has two children of her own. She resents Peggy because she is stuck at home with THREE kids, and her mother seems to favor Peggy no matter what she does. I would be somewhat resentful too! Peggy's sister is the typical housewife of that era, unfulfilled and yearning for more. OK, that's it. TO bed! No more idle threats.
Please tell us who the actor is who is playing Dr.Stone in Episode 5.....I recognize him from another series but he looks much older now.
We like this show...It is very different and inventive. Odd characters to say the least.
A strange thought went through my mind about Peggy. We all just assume that Pete is the father of her child but maybe Don is. After all he did give her a raise and new office before the child was born. I am not sure why everyone thinks that Anita is not caring for Peggy's baby. I thought it was pretty transparent in one of the earlier episodes that the baby belonged to Peggy and Anita was upset that she did not acknowledge him at all. There were many children asleep in that room. It is possible that Anita had her own baby at about the same time Peggy had hers and she is caring for both. I think Betty and Don are lousy parents. Betty wants Don to beat up on the little boy for getting into perfectly normal scrapes that all children get into and are no big deal. Don takes his little girl to the office and totally ignores her to the point that she gets intoxicated without him noticing. Swell parents!
Just a hint of a time line here
peggy's baby born after nixon lost election to jfk nov. 1960
this 5th epeisode takes place around may19 1962
mm sings hbday to jfk
I love don's creativity I love his charachter. He is a good person. betty is shallow and does not love her son. why? perhaps he is not don's?
this show has mystery after mystery
This show is many things.
Not just a clue to the clueless young women of today that have no idea that the feminist movement
did do some good for us. they changed us, and how we brought up our sons and daughters.
its an insight to marriage, family,
stress, lies, manipulation, health and pure
art television at its best.
I find it hard to believe that Peggy's baby is out there with some other family. It doesn't leave the door open for future tension about its existence and Pete being the father if the child is totally out of the picture.
I'm hoping this is a start to a new Peggy who becomes a little more "womanly" and less dowdy and about how she navigates the workplace. Ugh, it must have been so frustrating at that time. My old boss started working in advertising in the 70's and even then men and women started in different positions (women in a more clerical-type role.) She fought it and was the first woman to start in the "man's" position. Yeah!
Mimi, I just want you to know that this young woman has never forgotten what people who fought in the Women's Movement and CIvil Rights Movement did for her! As much as I like Mad Men, I didn't need the show as some "reminder" of that!
There are a lot of young women creating blogs and such who are quite aware of the struggles of back in the day! Please don't generalize!
Figaro, thank you for the reply, even though I am fully aware of that this is a tv show, and that art is subjective. My post was not meant to inform or even persuade you, only to express my difference in opinion. Take it or leave it, goodnight.
Don's comment to Bobbi about not feeling anything, reinforces why he's able to betray his wife and family without any remorse. We see this again and again, he has little guilt or remorse-and it's another reason he can push his wife around, because he doesn't see her as his victim anymore.
I enjoyed Joans comments to her former lover, Sterling, about his unhappy marriage. I think she hit a nerve.
Don and Bobbi are both self-created personas. Very interesting to see this shared similarity in both characters.
Peggy's mental health was obviously an issue, but how could it be so traumatic when she didn't even know she was pregnant? Her mother seemed to know of the baby.
visan
a lot of young women in power do not have a clue. t
They are even resentful to the womans movement ,they see it as a failure . after all we still do not have equal pay, oprah did a fabulous show on it years ago.i am glad you are knowledgeable and your right, generalizations are never accurate.but why is not your generation carrying the ball . get us equal pay
I like Don's new Secretary!...she's a hottie!!!! Joan is somehow 'lacking' next to her charms in my opinion.
Racheal's back (for a second) YAAAAAA!
Bobbie still diddling Don (almost) BOOOOOO!
Pete's 'swimmers' are powerful - YAAAAAAA!
Peggy was born a women - Boooooo! (LOL).
Sterling and Joan are talking- Yaaaaaa!
Joan got engaged - Booooo!
Pete stood up to his wife! - Yaaaaaaa!
Don's wife toke away Don's salt at dinner- Boooo!
Kosgrove chatted up the 'New Girl'- Yaaaaaaa!
Someone played Mozart on their Zipper- Booooo!
So yeah....it was an "OK" episode....more chicks!...Less Bobbie! I soo wanted to see Paul ask the new girl about "liking Ukrainian Food"- it's a gag on the DVD commentaries.
One reason some of you re having a hard time figuring out what things mean on the show is because people were more private in the 50's and 60's and didn't put their business in the street like it is done now. A' baby out of wedlock was a BIG thing. People got married then, I was there in the 50's and 60's and this program is right on. I think the writers throw a scene and and then unfold it over the next season. This is the BEST tv show I have ever seen and most interesting. After the first episode of Season 2 I was lucky enough to find all of Season 1 on Comcast On Demand. It all falls in places. The writing is fantastic. We will be seeing the story of Peggy's baby if it is alive before the end of this season and I would venture that Pete will know about it too. The affairs were right on also, as sex was there in the workplace and everywhere else, but more discrete and quiet than it is now. It was a lot more fun then when Men made the moves!
One reason some of you re having a hard time figuring out what things mean on the show is because people were more private in the 50's and 60's and didn't put their business in the street like it is done now. A' baby out of wedlock was a BIG thing. People got married then, I was there in the 50's and 60's and this program is right on. I think the writers throw a scene and and then unfold it over the next season. This is the BEST tv show I have ever seen and most interesting. After the first episode of Season 2 I was lucky enough to find all of Season 1 on Comcast On Demand. It all falls in places. The writing is fantastic. We will be seeing the story of Peggy's baby if it is alive before the end of this season and I would venture that Pete will know about it too. The affairs were right on also, as sex was there in the workplace and everywhere else, but more discrete and quiet than it is now. It was a lot more fun then when Men made the moves!
One reason some of you re having a hard time figuring out what things mean on the show is because people were more private in the 50's and 60's and didn't put their business in the street like it is done now. A' baby out of wedlock was a BIG thing. People got married then, I was there in the 50's and 60's and this program is right on. I think the writers throw a scene and and then unfold it over the next season. This is the BEST tv show I have ever seen and most interesting. After the first episode of Season 2 I was lucky enough to find all of Season 1 on Comcast On Demand. It all falls in places. The writing is fantastic. We will be seeing the story of Peggy's baby if it is alive before the end of this season and I would venture that Pete will know about it too. The affairs were right on also, as sex was there in the workplace and everywhere else, but more discrete and quiet than it is now. It was a lot more fun then when Men made the moves!
Im glad that others caught Peggy's intentional point of calling Don by his first name after she made him pay back the bail money she had given him. I think that she realized that although she had done him a big favor, and he had done the same for her in the past, that in a way they were now even and that he wasn't going to let her slack. She had to stand her ground.
As for the baby, I think the jury is still out. Peggy's sister, Anita, was definately pregnant, but there is also a possibility that something happened to her own child during birth. If that were the case it would make sense that she would raise Peggy's child as her own without question in the parish. Everyone would just think it was her baby, not Peggy's. I haven't seen another baby, but am I missing something?
I think the revelation of Don's deeper connection to Peggy made a lot of sense. He basically held her job for her while she was getting it together. His comment about,"this never happening" and "moving forward" was so in tune with his own mantra that he was able to give Peggy the confidence that she really could go forward without looking back. I have a feeling that we will see more flashbacks of their conversations.
As for Don and Bobbie....well that's going to be explosive. She's the perfect nauty temptress that has the balls to make Don burst into flames. This is going to get HOT! You think she has forgotten his little crotch grab? Look out Donny!
Tonight's episode, "The New Girl"--and the episodes leading to it--has me convinced that season 2 is the equal of, if not superior to, Season 1. Congratulations to all involved in this series. You have destroyed the "sophomore slump" so common of TV series. Eat your hearts out, HBO!
Great Episode!
I loved all the biplay between Bobbi and Peggy--what a surprising twist in the story line--seeing bobbi with her hair down so to speak--no make up and being sincere with peggy made her more likeable.
I also liked the way she confided to Don about the way she had invented and reinvented herself--realizing that what men called "negotiation" was something she had been doing all her life. Once she had that aha moment, she made her opportunity and seized her opportunity just as Don had done - maybe that is why she realizes they have something in common.
As for the Rachel and new husband thing--did anyone else notice that the new husband called Don Draper "Mr. Curtain!" I think he may have done it on purpose to say that Don is so out of the picture, his wife has never mentioned him as the great love of her life etc etc
It was a clever and comic put down--to take Don down a peg or two --a kind of gallant favour so she wouldn't be too shaken by the chance encounter.
One more thing--julia a new poster brought up the subjecty of the opening credits---
I think they are superb in the way they evoke the art of the sixties but in a far slicker fashion. The credit of the falling man--and the shadow silhouette was usd in the opening credits of Hitcock's vertigo and in countless other
films and TV shows of the sixties. I think the outline of the body in Anatomy of a Murder.
Hitcock also comes to mind because Cary Grant in North by Northwest plays an advertising executive who remains immaculate in his "gray flannel suit" another famous novel and film of the period--no matter how many adventures and misadventures he has- in the course of the film!
Great opening theme music--absolutely picture perfect!
I am so satisfied! You know these episodes could stand alone. Like a short movie! It's so good. I can go to sleep now thinking about Don's philosophy, "It's shocking at how 'it didn't happen' it can be"...."you go forward"...
OK, let's get real. Does anybody really think that Rachel prefers banging that dog looking husband of her's to THE DON? This is an absolute no brainer folks that dude was BORING TO THE MAX. Time to set an over under line for when Don and Rachel hook up again. I'M SETTING IT AT 3 EPISODES. Get your picks in.
chopin47- thanks for your response! I would love to see how the relationship between those two.
Montana- rachel's hubby didn't say "Mr. Curtain" he said to rachel that we're going to miss the curtain- indicating that they're seeing a show.
I'm loving all of the responses to this thread- its been very helpful. I was very shocked to see anita pregnant becuase I feel way more confused. Hopefully we'll see that twist develop this season. I really found pete's talk with the dr stone similar to a confessinal. How he thinks the world at that time and his attitude about his job (being replaceable and all) was quite astounding to me.
I noticed Rachel came looked like she wet herself when she saw Don and Rachel still had the Hots for each other. And Rachel is trouble because she is a Hypocrite and only a fair weather women. She'd turn on Don in a heartbeat. Bobbi, is turning out to be a good ally for Don, in spite of the fact that they are only lovers. Wow! how heavy is it that Don visited Peggy in the hospital? Does he feel like she had helped him when Pete had him under the Gun? (When peggy was crying to him about bad people getting away with stuff). I think Peggy might eventually become powerful in the office and somehow save Don's ass again down the line. I don't know if personally or professionally but the plot does thicken doesn't it?
Peggy's baby was given up for adoption. Peggy's behavior (her unwillingness to believe she had a baby) led the state of NY to make that decision for her and order her temporary commitment. Her sister Anita was simply pregnant at about the same time.
We were tricked cleverly by the writers at first to think that Anita was raising Peggy's baby--how awful. But in fact that baby in the bedroom is Anita's.
Anita would sure have complained in confession that she was raising Peggy's baby to the young priest (who one day will strum his mandolin out of the priesthood, say, about 1973) because Anita is angry that her mother forgives her sister and that the young priest is impressed with Peggy while she gets stuck with the fruits of her "goodness"-- a crap outer boro life.
It was just not sensible to think her own family was going to make Peggy hold her own "secret" baby in church. Catholic guilt was a force in those days, but it wasn't the inquisition! The unpleasantness of holding her own sister's similarly aged child was what that scene a few eps ago was about. The writers just loved making us freak out by giving us some pieces. That's why they're great. They make us take a while to figure it out.
In conversation with Bobbi, Peggy hints at her underlying anxiety about that baby now out in the world somewhere when she mentions to Bobbi that "a child in our neighborhood hit his head and died." She's living with that phamtom pain and this comment is clearly meant to show us the dual track she is on. Every bad story about some kid that age will haunt her a bit. She's taken Draper's advice, but there's a cost, unlike the Whitmans, Peggy's "moving forward" from an innocent who never called her whoreson etc. So she has her own even more painful version of this road to follow, in some ways far worse than Don.
Don's knowing about Peggy's secret is actually more important to another relationship. The Don/Pete one. C'mon people, after how the show finally explains why the relatives of the real Don Draper have never come looking for him, the next biggest question sitting out there is how the hell Pete doesn't destroy Don with his knowledge about his true identity.
(I loved Harry's season 1 comment about how no one knows Don: "I've tried lifting that rock, He's like Batman.")
To re-balance the relationship between Don and Pete, the writers had to give Don something HUGE on Pete. And in proper 1962 with a respected family name, but one with no family money any more it turns out, Pete cannot have it come out that he fathered a child out of wedlock with a co-worker, the very co-worker now writing the copy for the account his father in law handed him. And after ep 5 tonight, Trudy knows Pete's no George Washington. Daddy loves his little girl and Pete would take a serious beat down on multiple levels (financial, social, maybe even professional) if Trudy learned Pete had already "given" someone a baby.
Don, as a man who is always on guard over his identity, and a brilliant salesman, is very good a piecing together the secrets of others, and their weaknesses. By knowing about Peggy, he is on course to figure out that Pete is the dad of Peggy's child. And that is the balancer needed between the two men.
I loved Peggy wearing the gold ear-rings in the last scene with her and Don, when she first calls him "Don" instead of "Mr. Draper" two examples of taking Bobbi's advice-she tries out both: more equality with "Don" and a slight nod to "being a woman" as Bobbi suggests with the jewelry.
Mad Men is brilliant not because they don't introduce Etch-A- Sketch's in the wrong year, but because of the way they add layers to characters and create interactions between characters that advance the story that offer such great, if troubling insights into our real lives. Just fantastic.
They are plotting far, far ahead and that is the sign of a truly great show. Think about it: Peggy's and Pete's fling and the resultant pregnancy were actually in the storyline BEFORE the box of whitman photos landed in Pete's hands. Man, that's writing a tv show like a novel!
Draper calling Peggy to bail him out, in the context of the flashbacks makes sense. And the incident allows Peggy to grow (a way to get Bobbi's advice) and for her relationship with Draper to grow. Only secret sharers like Rachel get access to and a chance to connect with Draper--Roger still uses accent clues to figure out where Draper's from--and he's supposedly his "friend."
Finally why would Draper come looking for Peggy like that? Like Don, she's a climber, an outsider making her own way so there's some bond there. But the deeper answer is kinda freudian I think. Don's prostitute mother died in childbirth, and children often internalize guilt over their role in their own mother's deaths. Here Don comes to a girl his mother's age and tells her that she has a life waiting for her -- she doesn't have to let that Peggy "die" for giving birth out of wedlock. She can go on, move forward, like Don. Maybe that's the subconscious message he longed to give his mother--to live--but he's transferring to Peggy.
Hamm is wonderful as usual. His eyes, after Rachel leaves Sardi's and when Bobbi starts nuzzling him before the accident, express so subtly the character's core emotion--his anguish, his self-loathing, and yet his desire for indefensible, off the cuff escape that he tries again and again to submerge--his daughter's claustrophobia-inducing birthday party desertion by the train tracks, the asking his beatnik girlfriend to go Paris in Season 1 after the bonus.
A man who can trust no one and lives with the terrible knowledge that we live in a godless, brutally random universe is always on the run, no matter what mask he wears. And that desire to run is hard to keep under control. It's all there in JH's performance -- just perfect in it's subtle shading.
That bit about Don liking the movies will be back. Don is at his most theatrical when he "plays" stern dad, firing boss ("No, please stand ..."), or ready to be executed in front of firing squad brave guy, complete with cigarette in Bert Cooper's office when Pete tries to nuke him. He had to develop that character of Draper, that began with the stolen officer's uniform that impresses the woman on the train. Surely the movies helped him find role models. It's no wonder he's so good at image creation-- it was required for the very existence of "Don Draper."
Matt &Co. --- thanks for the amazing work. It's wildly selfish, to ask, but please keep it coming.
wow jimK- what an analysis! That's why I love this blog... Though I preferred last years format, the opinions and insights from fellow fans are always intact.
wow jimK- what an analysis! That's why I love this blog... Though I preferred last years format, the opinions and insights from fellow fans are always intact.
Okay, I thought it was BRILLIANT that Don called Peggy to bail him out. And its also MASTERFUL that Don and Peggy are embroiled in each other's secrets.
For a year and a half I've been watching the opening credits seeing Jon Hamm's name, then Elizabeth Moss's wondering, "are these guys pulling the wool over my eyes?" I was of the impression that January Jones or Christina Hendrix would get lead female credit considering Hamm and Moss barely share screen time; and they being the lead male and female characters, but now its all making sense. Their relationship goes much, much deeper and its getting into murkier waters. I'm sure there's so much more we don't know and I can't wait to find out. Now we know that they've opened the door to be each other's "go to" in case of trouble. And we know that Don is going to keep giving Peggy a leg up. Its not what you know, its who you know. I'm sure by the end of the series, Peggy will be the one running the office.
Ask yourselves this, why, in the 1st episode of season 2, were Cosgrove and the rest making insinuations about Peggy's time off being some fault of Don's? I can't remember the exact quote. Why does it seem there are off-hand remarks flying around about Peggy and Don. Obviously these two are watching each other's back and in their own small ways, the rest of the office is picking up on it. Maybe the new girl, being clairvoyant, might pick up on it.
And hey, who's to say that Don didn't send that book to Peggy? She seems to have lots of books in her apartment. She's his protege, more so than the stooges in the office, especially not that tool Pete (VK, loved your work since Angel - not trying to hate here).
1. Peggy and Don are more entwined than we thought.
2. The office senses something about the two of them.
3. Who is Don's book-sending buddy?
This might be obvious but no one has said it - not even JimK in that great rundown: "The New Girl" is not referring to Don's new secretary, it's referring to Peggy - wearing the gold earrings, calling Don by his first name, etc.....becoming a new girl.
Goodbye Rachel. When she appeared for a moment (and now married), the "look" at Don might as well have been titled: "Strangers When We Meet". I just about cried seeing her - it was done and over. Goodbye Rachel, we'll never see the likes of you again.
My theory is that Anita is still raising Peggy's baby - but she lost hers in childbirth. Her anger towards Betty seems deeper than just resenting her conventional life in a New York borough. That may also explain why her mother may have forgiven her - she sees Peggy being pregnant and giving her sister a child as a miracle.
Bobbi may be annoying but not after this episode (for me anyway). Even if her whole purpose was a contrived plot device to lead into Betty's transformation as the New Girl, it was worth it.
One more comment about Hamm's acting: I teared up during the scene at the end of Ep4 between Don and his son Bobby. The way Don remembers his father, "much bigger than me" --a child's memory at 10 years old still frozen 26 yrs later.
And the "violet flavored candy" line, delivered like Don's just found a photograph in a book-- trying to offer a memory of long dead person and finding only something inconsequential--because the relationship was so bad--but so viscerally remembered.--and being slightly taken aback by it on both levels.
You don't weep for the hug alone, you weep for the man who can hug and won't hit after being dealt that kind of terrible father and childhood. All captured in that bit of reflection.
Even though it is a brilliant show and has gotten loads of laudatory press, it is not doing well in the ratings, What is more scary, ratings dropped off over 40% over show one in both seasons. For some reason, some potential viewers are not warming to it.
It would have helped if the Golden Globes went on as planned when it got the award for the best TV drama. I suspect that is the show does not get an EMMY or if it gets one and the ratings don't improve, there will be no season 3.
On the DVD during one of the voice over comments from the writer and actors they commented that the story line was that Harry would leap from the building and maybe that's the person falling from the building in the opening credits. But, his character was so lovable they they couldn't kill him off. It was probably going to happen when he was living in the office after his affair. I'm glad they didn't kill him off. Then again, during one of the voice comments Jon Hamm said, there I am falling from the building. So, I guess the person falling from the building is up for grabs. I love this show and I don't know one person who's watching, so I'm happy to find a place where I can leave comments and read other's comments. I'm talking it up with friends and family, but so far no one is watching. I didn't know about this show until a few weeks ago and watched via on demand and dvds from Netflix to catch up.
At first when Sally Draper drank the alcoholic drink at the office, I thought she didn't know what she was drinking, but having made so many drinks for her parents, she knew what she was drinking. Poor little Sally. Sorry if this is off subject, but I've watched Season 1 and so far Season 2 in just over a week or so and they're starting to meld together.
The scene at the police station with the "blustery"
cop. He mentioned Don's blood alcohol level.
Were those tests done in the early 60s? I don't recall that.
Jamm, I know what you mean! There will NEVER be another character like Rachel on Mad Men! She'll be missed and I doubt she'll return--this season! Still, it was great seeing her and watching how she still made Don's world messy! Rachel rocked!
OMG - BEST episode yet! LOVED IT. And the best is RACHEL'S BACK - yeayyyyy!!!! C'mon you guys - she's not gone! Not by a long shot. You think she's going to just disappear into oblivion with Mr Peepers? Nah.... she and Don will be back in the sack by Episode 9. (Dennis - did you catch that?) When I saw Rachel in that scene, I ran to the TV to get a closer look. I didn't think she'd make an appearance until the last episode.
Once and for all, the little blond toddler is Anita's baby. In the flashback at the hospital, she was obviously very pregnant. As for Peggy's baby, hullo?... it's the '60s. Babies were not "kept" back then, they were given up for adoption. Especially Catholics. Knocked-up Catholic girls gave their babies up, and nice young infertile couples adopted them.
Wonderful episode, but I can't imagine how Attention Deficit Theater's going to take this on! It's a tough one.
don draper and peggy olson are soulmates but not in the romantic sense ... of course he would have to know about her pregnancy because she took two months off
it was called the new girl because of all the new changes to the women on the cast
new secretary
joan engaged
rachel married
peggy personal confident
trudy has to give in to her twerpy husband
who is bobbi to give advice to any woman about anything when she becomes a hooker to negotiate and get her way
I also think don is a sociopath because of his upbringing and is without conscience the exception being his kids especially his son
peggy probably had a similar story and that is why they are soulmates
and we don't know for sure who the father is yet
don draper is also a selfmade man and thru history these types of men are ruthless and live by theire own set of rules
Interesting episode that answered several questions.
The title of the episode and the characteristically oblique description imply that the "New Girl" is Don's new secretary. In the middle of the episode it be Joan, with a ring on her finger. By the end of the episode, we are left with no doubt that the "New Girl" is Peggy. She will continue to grow as a character.
We finally know that Don is aware of Peggy's situation and helped her to hide her institutionalization. However, we are still unsure whether he knows about the baby. We did see that Peggy's sister Anita was pregnant while Peggy was in the hospital…it would have been very easy to say that Anita gave birth to twins as a way to hide Peggy's pregnancy- we still don't know, but is it possible. From what was presented it appears that Peggy was diagnosed with a nervous breakdown. More than a month after the fact (Don: "Your Christmas present is still on your desk"), she still does not know why she was hospitalized or that she is a mother. Her doctor has told her mother and sister that she still does not know where she is or what has happened. Since her return this season, she has appeared timid and unsure of herself at times, only coming to life so to speak when in Don's presence. With the revelation that Peggy was under a doctor's care for a considerable period of time, we can now see a new dimension to her personality- psychological fragility. Will we see further evidence of psychological problems ? In addition, we have no clues as to Peggy's father, only that he is not in the house. Does Peggy see Don as a surrogate father ?
While I don't want to be trite, it is hard not to refer to the Godfather and the Sopranos when discussing the debts incurred between Peggy and Don. To paraphrase Don Vito Corleone- I will help you, but one day I will ask for your help in return. The debt was paid back when Don called Peggy after his accident. He and Peggy are uneasy allies in that they are now hiding something about their backgrounds that could devastate their current lives if the true facts come to light. Don's advice to her was cold, but needed and his comment that it will shock her how easy it is to hide something like this was obviously drawn from his experience. How will this bond affect their future relationship ? Now that the debt has been cancelled, will Don continue to promote Peggy's career ?
Don is attracted to Bobbie and now seems to enjoy her company to a certain extent. Making a point of telling her not to confuse their affair with business is a clear indication that he has acknowledged that a personal relationship exists between them. We don’t know how emotionally attached he is however. He agrees to meet her at Sardi's when he had the opportunity to turn her down, he agrees to go with her to the shore and does seems to enjoy her physical attention. However he did make a point of telling her that he felt "nothing"- was this a reference to his inebriation or to his feelings for her ? Since a pilot episode of "Grin and Barret" will be filmed we can also see how Bobbie will exit Don's life after the pilot is picked up and the Barrets move to Hollywood.
The very brief encounter with Mrs. Katz left Don shaken. He looked as if he had seen a ghost, while her expression registered shock. Bobbie clearly picked up on the emotions on display, did Mr. Katz ? A more extensive reunion could be explosive.
Whatever sympathy Pete had earned a few weeks ago has vanished completely. He is a cruel self absorbed ass. Yes his reaction to an inability to have a child with Trudy is partly due his desire not to have a child. BUT how could anyone be so callous and insensitive ? There are clearly problems in this marriage…how long will it last ?
Once again, Betty eviscerated Don with a shot right between his eyes. As if dealing with all that had happened in the previous days was not enough, coming home and receiving a body blow from his wife must have been devastating. Don's reaction clearly showed that he is aware of what a mess he is making of his life. "Why can't Daddy have salt ? Because we love him."
I love Bobbi, because I had a "Bobbi" of my own in my life in the mid 60's when I was starting out. She was very a successful woman, which was unusual. She used to sign papers with her first initial, so no on would realize she was a woman. And like Peg, I did her a favor, and she thanked me by taking me under her wing, and mentoring me. I was so poor then, and really didn't know anything about clothes or style. She cleaned out her closet and sent me a box (like one that a stove or dishwasher could have come in) of her hand-me-downs and I was thrilled to get them. Clothes then weren't so generation specific, and they were things I certainly couldn't afford. I wrote her a gracious thank you note, and she continued sending me clothes, helping me with advice, and bringing me a along, until she died. Don't discount Bobbi , she is one to watch.
About Roger: Roger went after Betty, remember? Don doesn't trust Roger.
He promoted Peggy, and I think he likes the idea of being kingmaker. He rejected Pete, but advanced Peggy. He knows he can trust her. He kept her job open for her after her trip to the sanitarium, which was very unusual. More than that, I think he believes in her. She makes him look good.
As for the priest, I kept thinking he looked familiar (after I learned it was Colin Hanks, that seemed obvious) but I kept thinking he reminded me of Pete!
If the ratings are down, I expect it has to do with the Olympics, and the elections. One thing I wish that MM came on at 9:00pm., rather than 10:00 p.m. I don't have "on demand."
The best clue to story with Peggy/baby/Anita is in Don's visit to the hospital. He asked her if she knew what they wanted her to do, she said yes, and he said "do it" - you need to get out of here. I think they wanted her to either keep the baby or give it to Anita. I do think the baby is Peggy's and is going to be central to a plot line involving Pete's wife's infertility. In those days it was very possible for parents (or a husband) to have an adult child (or wife) committed to an institution until they capitulated to whatever the family wanted. I actually saw it happen to a wonderful girl who wanted to leave her abusive husband to be with a man who adored her. Her parents and her husband decided that she must be crazy and had her certified as incompetent. She was given shock treatments in the hospital and when she finally got out she was like a zombie and didn't even recognize the man that she was in love with. Women have come a very long way in having personal rights.
"What they wanted her to do" was probably give it up for adoption. And that's why Don was saying "Do it". He's all about erasing the past; not keeping reminders of it in the other room. I'll say it again - she gave it up for adoption -- that is what was done in those circumstances.
Episodes continue to run true to the times for me.
I was reprimanded at boarding school for "busting buttons" in an American history class.
The dormitory lounge included a cigarette machine that was kept very busy. The only place there wasn't smoke was in bedrooms or outside.
Dad was taken off a commuter train to a hospital. Immediately after that episode window A/C was installed at home. In hindsight I see better what the 'secret' was.
Had friends who were adopted. Was to discover later their mother's could not bear children due to 'home' abortions earlier in life. Those adoptees have had a much more difficult time finding birth parents than later decades due to laws and records.
I also agree it was much easier for parents to have an adult child committed to an institution back then.
Always have to watch episodes a couple of times to catch so many 'messages'. The blog helps.
Surprised me that Peggy was the helper.
Nice surprise the other Bobbies side, very interesting advices (I thought an other "other girl"). And Peggy has her own past and Don has this connection to her for his own dark side. When he sais do whatever they ask you to do, they make clear she is in a mental institution and they are giving to her some kind of psicotherapy. May be he knows about these things for his own past... what happened after he changed his identity?
I think Annita was carring a pillow to later mother Peggy's son. Peggys baby is the "little one" as the priest said; so he's the youngest.
Great episode! Love the plot twists. Keeps me coming back. So anyway, here's what I think:
Joan does look heavier by about 20 lbs - could be padding and wardrobe selection because her arms are still thin. It's meant to show she's getting long in the tooth by early 60s standards (a first-time bride age 31 was quite old then). Yes, we have seen her doctor fiance - they were necking fully clothed on the couch the night Jackie Kennedy was on tv (remember?) and Joan preferred the tv to his caresses. Her rear view has spread and I think that's what Roger was thinking as he wistfully watched her walk out of his office after they discussed her engagement and his unhappy marriage. Also his crack about "relatively young love". That was low. Not a nice man at all.
Roger - now pathetic, weak and sad - is reduced to hiring a prostitute and treating her like a girlfriend. Foreshadowing: the call girl says "no one dies from this (sex)" but she's wrong - men die "in the saddle" all the time. I predict Roger will have another heart attack while in bed with the hooker. He is on top of her and she can't get out from under his dead weight (even if he's not dead yet) - and has to call room service to rescue her. Who will come to sort it out?
OR - Roger will hook up with Don's new secretary, who wants to take Joan's place in more ways than one. But this gal is about 10 yrs younger than Joan, and her ideas are more modern - she will want more from an office affair than clandestine lunchtime or afterhours hotel romps - and I don't mean a canary in a cage.
Don and Bobbi will act out bondage and domination fantasies as they both use each other to achieve various ends. It will become obvious that Jimmy is aware of their affair.
Don's marriage to Betty is now complete vanilla, without flavor...symbolized by the lack of salt in the meatloaf. "You'll get used to it" she said. However, it gives Don an excuse not to deal with Betty sexually - she thinks he's nearly an invalid due to high blood pressure.
Don will confront Betty violently when he sees her talking to the younger man at the country club. Betty will challenge Don's double standar by bringing up his multiple infidelities.
Peggy will find out there's a limit to her upward mobility as she's excluded from some meetings. Don will indeed punish her because she reminds him of his close call.
As for what happened to Peggy's baby: I think the comment Peggy made to Bobbie about "a little boy in the apt. building who hit his head and he died" has some relevance. Otherwise it was a throw away line and the show doesnt have throw away lines.
Also I believe Joan bought the engagemet ring herself and there is no fiance. She is trying to push Roger to leave his wife and move her to "the country" (suburbs) as she told Peggy on her first day happens if she plays her cards right.
What if that remark about the little boy in the apartment was about Peggy's baby? What if Peggy killed her baby? I just can't put together how Anita is pregnant when Peggy was in the hospital. Where is Anita's baby?
WOW WOW WOW! Last nights Man Men with the Peggy's flashbacks and what Don's advice to her WOW WOW WOW!
The new girl fresh meat for the wolves heehee.
Don's words to Joan ...that's not wedding bells..in reference to answering the phone. Cracked me up.
Harry's Mozart d' zipper cracked me up too.
Looking forward to the next segment, Mad Men flies by so fast!
Wonder if Pete will learn about the baby and that it's his son. His wife is deperate for a child think it will be more intense with time too.
Drink&Smoke: Why can't you figure out how Anita could be pregnant? She's a married woman, she already had two kids. When Peggy was in the hospital, Anita was SHOWN there looking about 9 mos. pregnant with her 3rd child. What's so hard about that? The child now is the toddler we saw in the crib and again in church, and again at the Easter Egg hunt. I have 3 sisters, we were often pregnant together.
Don is a terrific judge of character and master manipulator. He had to be to to reinvent himself as Don Draper and succeed in a highly competitive business world. As an advertising man he sells illusions, and his biggest illusion is himself.
He sees his own character traits in Peggy and seizes on her ambition to rise above her station to manipulate her. That is why he counseled her to compartmentize by quickly moving on as if the pregnancy and birth never happened and told her she will will be amazed how easy it is to do. Don saw Peggy as the only one he could trust to cover up the drunken driving accident--at least until she called him "Don" which stunned him. Don, of course, did not foresee Bobbie's corrupting influence on Peggy--how could he?
Someone commented on what an annoying character Bobbie is--like a buzzing mosquito. That is very true and funny. But Bobbie is so good at that-- how can you not love her?
One thing I do not understand is Peggy being described as a beauty. She is young and clean cut and looks like a Catholic school girl of that era. But to me, she is Miss Plain Jane. Maybe she has been scripted like that to be a contrast with the other sexy beauties in Don's life, and to create the illusion of a woman suceeding in the business world through her intelligence, not her sexy wiles--an illusion that may come crashing down on Don.
pj - you're right, Peggy is not a beauty. Bobbi was trying to flatter/b-shit Peggy and thereby loosen her up to spill info about Don. (Remember her saying she wishes she were Peggy's size? Also flattery, though Peggy is very slim now) Bobbi and Don, master manipulators - and Peggy is going to train under both of them. Will either one or both of them come to see her as dangerous?
"As Peggy prepares to leave her sister and mother, her sister asks, "Aren't you going to say goodnight?" Peggy briefly peeks on a blond-haired blue-eyed infant from the doorway of the bedroom he's sharing with his cousins."
This is from the Flight 1 episode recap. More food for thought, but I don't think any conclusion can be drawn from this.
When Bobbi tells Peggy to be a woman because she can't be a man... I'm not sure I understand exactly what she was trying to tell her. Is it that she's fully capable as a woman and doesn't need to try to fit in as one of the mad men? Is she telling her to use the fact that she's a woman to get what she wants? As in using her body to get ahead? I don't necessarily mean just sleeping with men, maybe dressing a certain way?
I don't usually like over analyzing but this was important and I'm a little confused. Is she telling her to be a strong assertive woman? Or that its ok to whore yourself out a little?
I'm still cracking up at when Pete went to "give his sample" and was looking through the magazines, they then immediatley cut to Roger Sterling pounding the paddleball. No one got that??
Don isn't "cold" in his advice to Peggy at the hospital. And he doesn't need to "manipulate" a junior copywriter--especially one he promoted--the first woman in that job in that firm since the war.
Don isn't a "sociopath." He's a desperate, lonely person trying to make his way in a world that has failed him literally from birth.
Don doesn't believe in god and sees no order in the universe. He sees that big institutions on earth are not what they are advertised either -- whether it's the army that sends him to a fighting position that is certain death (2 guys to to the job of 22) to a WASP-y white shoe New York agency with that is considered "respectable" and actually revels in dumping clients "old business is just old business."
Don shows his view of the emptiness of institutions when he dismissively replies to his beatnik girlfriend's true love by telling him that there is no "establishment" to be blamed for society's ills. Don knows--he went looking for it as some kind of authority to give him direction. From obedient farmhand/whoreson ward, to army private, to his lovely suburban home complete with barbie wife, to Sterling Cooper, Don can't find a set of rules that doesn't turn out to fail him that isn't rife with hypocrisy and hopeless contradiction.
So he tries as best he can to use his will to make sense of the universe. His problem is that nothing works. His wife wants him to hit his kid as a sign that he cares about his family. His boss wants him to drop a trusted client to get a bigger client rather than to grow the first client through their work. And both are supported by society in those views.
But in his gut he knows they're wrong. That society is wrong.
He swings from trying on one set of rules to another as he sees they don't work, and in those moments of depressing clarity he wants to flee--to Paris, to the railroad tracks in Ossining, to a Stony Brook beach. All desperate, crazy subversive acts/desires. NOT sociopathic behavior akin to a Tony Soprano having sex with the one-legged polish cleaning lady. That's sociopathic self-indulgence.
And then when he is called on it by Rachel, he is ashamed of this desire to run. So he manfully submits to Pete's unmasking in front of Bert Cooper, like a man facing a firing squad -- and then ducks that bullet and goes on to try to service Betty and his clients as penance. But it doesn't stick.
Dick Whitman is desperate for answers. He found some of them in movies, with that "Teddy" from the fur company and other sources, to create the Don Draper character, but now he's reading poetry in bars and slipping away from the office to watch foreign films.
Roger Sterling is the decadent, immoral bastard whose decline with women -- from husband to Sugar Daddy to straight paying client, mirrors Sterling Cooper's decline. Hate him if you want.
Don's thing with Bobbi starts as a disgusting bit of forced business-related whoring on his part, but as she chases him, he can't help but give in. The universe has no rules, Bobbi is the latest embodiment of this and at some point Don just stops fighting. And it has value to him. Straying from Betty releases the claustrophobic hold he's allowed her to place over him since the first season and allows him to perform in bed again.
Don't think his pain over Rachel isn't real. He regularly runs from pain into sensuality. He's not a "cold bastard." "I don't feel anything" he replies to Bobbi with a mix of anguish and disgust as he swigs the whiskey before the accident. This is not a man to envy or to hate. It is a man to pity and perhaps root for no matter how hopeless his journey may be.
He's reacting to a world, a society with the same blunt force it has battered him with from birth. But he's still staggering on, trying to find something better. He doesn't want to be like Bobbi, accepting that this is all there is.
And for goodness sake, Don brushed off Peggy in Ep One, when she thought she was supposed to sort of offer herself to him. He ISN'T the father of her baby unless the writing staff has had a collective cerebral hemorrhage.
Bobbi and Rachel are history – I’d be surprised to see them again – perhaps a walk–on as with Rachel last night – but that’s it. This is a story – many arcs – few closures. There will be new women for Don – just not the ones that work at the agency.
The writing is brilliant and John Hamm makes the show as Don Draper. I watched ‘Kissing Jessica Stein’ to see him play another character – a 90 second forgettable role. I’m confident that Don Draper will do for John Hamm what Tony Soprano did for James Gandolfini.
Mad Men could easily be as popular as the HBO hit if it weren’t for all the commercials. TOO MANY COMMERCIALS! The spots interfere with the story line and are distracting to the plot. I Tivo the show and start watching 20 minutes later.
Cad men: I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment on the title, 'The New Girl.' It was interesting to see how all of the women had changed in some way. The new secretary was the least significant of the changes -- in fact, her showing her 'decolletage,' as Joan says, seems to be the soon-to-be outdated mode for female advancement in 1962. It strikes me that the writers (note that a woman, Robin Veith, penned this episode) were making their boldest comment yet about the changing dynamics for women at this point in our history.
Peggy: as noted by others here, her change was the most profound. The earrings, the striking blue blouse (heretofore she was always in drab colors; remember Pete asking her is she was Amish(!)), and calling Draper 'Don.' Great stuff.
Rachel: Her married status was a shock, to a man in all ways opposite of Don -- not particularly attractive, not slick, not a goyim. In one way, one could see this as a hasty marriage for Rachel on the rebound from Don. However, it was telling in their scene that she seemed confident and 'over him,' while he looked a wreck. Her withering little joke to Bobbie was priceless. It's funny how Don's personal ethos is 'move forward,' but he clearly couldn't here -- in fact, the whole episode he seems increasingly like an anachronism in a world leaving him behind.
Joan: Engaged, and doing her victory lap. She has achieved her 'career goal'. As an aside, this is going to prove a tricky one for the writers. Will her character, clearly the Queen Bee of the SC office, be as compelling? Wouldn't she presumably quit once she gets married and pregnant? Not sure where they will go with her now.
Betty: A more subtle change, but I thought her response to Don's accident and disclosure of medical problems was remarkably rational and even caring. She displayed a maturity that was never on display in Season One. And, importantly for Don, she appeared to be more in control in their relationship -- taking away the salt.
None of these changes, I should add, bode particularly well for Don in his current form. His control over all the women in his life is eroding -- the little S&M previewed in next episode makes a lot of sense! Speaking of the S and the M, even Bobbie acquits herself well in this episode. Like many on this board, I'm no fan -- but she was endearing in her treatment of/counsel to Peggy. Like Joan Crawford, Rosalind Russell or some other 'tough old bitch' tenderly telling the next generation how to use their gender role to their advantage. In this context of 'new girls', I think the first allusion to Marilyn Monroe in this episode was pointed; Monroe represented a man's fantasy of what a women should be -- by early 1962, literally and figuratively, she was on the way out.
One side question: Not to sound like the questions at the end of the Cliff Notes chapter discussions, but did Don give Peggy good advice? I love their relationship -- he respects her, sees himself in her because she is struggling to become something different than her lot in life. The line she says in Season One on the date with the truck driver about New York people being 'better than us. They want things they've never even seen' or whatever it was, reminded me of Don in some way. They are kindred spirits, and now mutual secret sharers (I agree with others that Don is ever-resourceful in choosing her; he trusts her yet also has something on her -- with him it's always more than one reason!). However, I couldn't help feeling ambivalent about him telling her to 'move forward.' He is a man essentially abandoned as a child, and he is advising her to do the same to her own son? Man, this show is many-tentacled!
Lastly, I love Don as a movie buff -- his little escapes to the movies during work hours always reminded me of 'The Moviegoer,' by Walker Percy.
JimK. You and some others, but you most extensively, have documented what this story is really about. You forced me to an insight and I hope this is not too off topic to share.
Don Draper's life and Season 1/2 is what we almost never see on TV or in novels anymore anymore--a moral story about business. If anyone here is familiar with the themes of 1930s-60s great novelist (and sadly neglected one) James Gould Cozzens (By Love Possessed, Guard of Honor, Morning Noon and Night, The Last Adam), Mad Men is in this tradition. The writing has his spare, unsentimental, realistic style and themes. (BTW By Love Possessed was one of the top novels of the 1950s--the movie is a bad take on it--and Guard of Honor still makes lists of top ten novels about WWII). Cozzens wrote about the world of the professions, business, men and women, families, relationships and man's relationship in upholding the order of a right and just society.
In addition the lives of Don Draper (and Peggy to a degree)show the severe shortcomings of situational ethics, a//k/a moral relativism, which gained popularity in Christian (not Catholic) circles in the period (Joseph Fletcher.) "Love is the ultimate law" (that is love for all people, not the physical love we see so much of here) and ends can justify the means, etc. etc. Objectivism (Ayn Rand) in fact, is the polar opposite.
I'll leave it to those who want to debate philosophy on whether this is valid--I believe that with no fixed morality and sense of right and wrong we are damn lost--so DD's flailing is the only outcome of his personal philosophy, or lack thereof.
The fact that the series has lost audience (Olympics be damned) shows how out of touch the average viewer is with a moral story. (BTW Law & Order Criminal Intent, my other favorite series, touches upon the consequences of situational ethics in the characters of the two detective pairs, but in a very muddled and unsatisfying way, indicating the writers aren't really conscious of the "arc beneath.". There are similarities between Goren and Draper, except that Goren's choice of situational ethics aren't obviously not working anymore as he bleeds right off the screen.)
Ok, so here goes. Peggy and Don's relationship is one of two people with pasts. I think that we will find out that Don knows that Pete is Peggy's baby daddy. He'll use that later. Don knows better than anyone how to cover stuff up and he knows that Peggy would never rat him out. Remember when Peggy gave Don's secretary a dressing down about talking about him. Peggy is very protective of Don because of what he did for her. She appreciates it but also wants the same level of respect. Bobbie understands Peggy, and will help her get her respect. I think we'll see big changes in Peggy in the coming episodes.
Pete and his wife will not be able to conceive. They will look to adopt and "POOF" here will appear a child, about 18 months old...could it be???
Betty knows where Don was. She said "you said you wouldn't disappear like that anymore". She's now going to torment him for his indiscretions. Good luck Don!!!
Don likes the attention and free spirit of Bobbie. there is a pattern in the women he likes...Rachel, Midge, Bobbie...all women who know what they want...strong women. Betty is not those girls....that's why he likes the others.
What Roger said to Joan about her not working really caused Joan to pause. Even though she thinks marrying the Dr. is a good thing, she's going to think twice especially with Don's new sex kitten secretary who will look to replace Joan. My take is that Joan will choose career over marriage.
The baby was adopted...there was no pillow stuffing.
Pete, in a nutshell, a selfish ass. He is soooooo self centered and cold. But, he's the type that will go postal some day. Keep watching him.
Cosgrove should just open up his own escort service. His services will no longer be needed soon as the times change. Cosgrove will turn into Milton from Office Space in the coming years.
Peggy was very smooth with Don when she called him Don. I loved the look on his face! I wish is that Betty get more of a backbone and play with
Arthur. Don is such a jerk to her! He only loves himself and his kids! Betty does need to lay off Bobby though as in the last episode! What is up with that? I wish that Betty was more like Bobbi. She is an aggressive female. I am confused about Peggy's baby. I assume he was adopted since her sister was pregnant in the hospital scene. And what a jerk Pete is! Bragging about being virile so his wife can feel bad about difficulty conceiving. These men on this show treat their wives like crap except for Harry! Cant wait for next week's episode!
Laurie B, I think Greg is talking about what men do -more frequently as adolescents boys-which used to be called abusing oneself. Sorry, do not mean to lower the level of discourse. But the imagery in the show was very clear.
Old fashioned--great observation about the Marilyn Monroe conversation--clearly a harbinger--you're either a "new girl" or your on your way out.
I disagree about his advice to Peggy. Don's prostitute mother died in childbirth, and children often internalize guilt over their role in their own mother's deaths. Here Don comes to a girl his mother's age and tells her that she has a life waiting for her -- she doesn't have to let that Peggy "die" for giving birth out of wedlock. She can go on, move forward, like Don. Maybe that's the subconscious message he longed to give his mother--to live--but he's transferring to Peggy.
I also like the perhaps unintentional parallels with Don's waking up in the army hospital. The army mistakenly okayed his terrible crime: desertion-- by handing him a purple heart and discharging him as DD thanks to his swiping DD's dogtags.
In St. Marys Hospital, Don appears as an authority figure to Peggy to absolve her of her terrible crime and gives her a way out.
By bigsis on August 25, 2008 8:10 AM The scene at the police station with the "blustery"
cop. He mentioned Don's blood alcohol level.
Were those tests done in the early 60s? I don't recall that.
Review the background of the winners of the Presidential elections of 2000 & 2004. I think you will find that they did indeed measure BAC back in the 50's & 60's.
And yes, it was not a big deal to drive while intoxicated back then.
DonnaC--
Thanks for those suggestions I will check them out. I agree that Don is flailing, he's falling, surrounded both those images and their promise of happiness in the opening.
Anita is raising Peggy's baby. The Synopsis says he is sharing a room with his cousins—Anita's children.
Geographical error: Bobbie and Don are heading for her place in Stony Brook. Stony Brook is on Long Island Sound, not on the ocean, and only during a major hurricane would she hear any surf.
It's not clear whether Don knows why Peggy was hospitalized for so long. If her cover story is a medical illness (TB or perforated appendix were commonly used) she might have said so. No reason for such a long hospitalization after childbirth, so he might not suspect. Perhaps she had postpartum depression—even psychosis—and that's why the state deemed her unable to give consent to an adoption, as seemed her intent.
The new secy's open buttons were definitely a no-no back then, not (as now) a fashion statement.
@Visan & LaurieB: yes, it was wonderful and sad to see Rachel. When I saw the husband, I knew it was a one shot deal. They wrapped up the whole storyline in a few lines of dialogue (intro of husband; Don asking about the other agency; Rachel commenting on Don's work relationship, i.e. Bobbie). Rachel would NEVER be unfaithful to her own spouse, she's too classy for that. And being no fool, she knew Don had "moved on" to banging a new client, and probably figured she had been one in a long line of many with the presence of Bobbie.
I can see why Don called Peggy from the police station after the scene where he visits her at St Mary's Hospital. What wasn't very clear was whether Don knew exactly why Peggy was in the hospital. He mentioned TB and quarantine as an excuse given by Peggy's mother, but he obviously didn't believe it - his appearance at the hospital proves that. But does Don know that Peggy had a child? I wasn't sure about that, and can't remember if he asked her. I don't know if his advice "move forward" and forget about all of it was the healthiest or the best thing (it's not quite working for him, and it's not helping Peggy free herself from the past).
Roger and Joan are still a mystery to me. Was it all about the ring for Joan? I swear she's not even remotely in love with the doctor, but she is in love with the ring! In their scene together, it didn't look like Roger will make a play for her, but was trying to tell Joan that she was special to him. Joan wasn't buying it, though. Don't care for Joan this season - she seems like a grumpy old bag.
Overall, this was the most action-oriented episode, where things moved along more.
Drunk driving was not the big deal it is today. While in my twenties back in the 1970s I went to a company picnic at a park in Rockland County where I got totally blitzed. On the way home, I fell asleep at the wheel (fortunately, I was stopped on the shoulder). I was picked up by 2 cops who drove me to the nearest dinner to sober me up with coffee and from there drove myself home
Don was offered Ayn Rand by Bert Cooper, it was popular among a certain crowd in the ad world in that era. My dad worked for McCann-Erickson, (the firm that chased don last season), back then.
But I think Don's experience with big business makes him unlikely to become a dewey-eyed Dominique Francone about the wonder of enterprise and the glory of the U.S. constitution.
Don is in romantic reaction to our supposedly "rationale" society. It is bound to be messy.
On a lighter note-- that was a funny bit having Roger beat the ball after Pete gets ready to give his sample. Roger, because he is such a font of humor in the story is far more bearable. And John Slatttery does like a McGuyver-like acting job -- getting a huge bang for his number of lines per show. He's fantastic. His interaction with Harry two eps back was terrific. And that line in "For Those Who Think Young" : "Kinsey doesn't realize his written his own death warrant."-- just great.
Excellent point about the hospital parallels -- I hadn't thought of it, but I'm sure it's a deliberate choice. It's a place where people are born and die, and both Don and Peggy kind of 'gave birth to themselves' in hospitals. Very clever stuff.
This is the fascinating thing about this show, and why in many ways it fits squarely in the tradition of great American writing. One of the central themes of the American literary tradition is 'The Self-Made Man' -- Gatsby, Clyde Griffiths in American Tragedy, Tom Wingfield in Glass Menagerie, etc. -- and Don and Peggy both embody the Self Made Man. However, the conundrum of the self-made man is that this creation almost always involves an act of desertion somewhere along the way. And the past never stays past.
I'm not sure either way if Don was giving her the right advice. It may have been the right advice; adoption was and remains a viable option for a girl/young woman not equipped to raise a child on her own. He did, of course, present it to her as if it's the easy choice. And his anguish both about getting caught and about the death of his brother Adam -- indicates it isn't as easy as he suggested to Peggy. For Peggy, like Don before, this may have been the right choice -- but it is a choice with consequences.
I should add, I don't know think she gave the baby up for adoption. I have assumed all along that the baby her sister is raising is Peggy's. Still operating under that assumption, but the fact that her sister did look visibly pregnant confused me.
I was hoping someone could remind me about the conversation Pegs sister had in the confessional with the priest...? did she say she was raising her sisters child? I cannot remember - I assume no - but did confess that she had a baby correct?
Gail Klein and I were thinking we should have a MadMen convention in NYC. Where else? Who else on the blogs lives in New York? Is there a cool bar we could meet at? Maybe watch the last Season 2 episode? Just thinking out loud.... who's in?
Anita is not raising Peggy's baby. Anita and Peggy have two brothers who the father refers to before the priest comes over ---one is named "little Gerry."
Anita and Peggy's kids both could be "cousins" to their children as mentioned in the synopsis. Otherwise that seems like a lot to throw away in a web recap.
The clearly pregnant Anita gave birth to a kid about the same time. How she could have "stuck a pillow" in her belly and covered for Peggy? There weren't two baby's in that room. If the synopsis wanted come right out and say it, it would have not read, peggy sees a blonde, blue-eyed boy with his cousins, it would be sees "her baby." It was designed to throw us off.
JimK wrote: Anita is not raising Peggy's baby. Anita and Peggy have two brothers who the father refers to before the priest comes over ---one is named "little Gerry."
You're kidding right? As if Peggy and Anita would have BROTHERS who are elementary school-age? Those kids are Anita's sons. Sheesh!
Right on the money about the role of desertion as crucial to self invention.
Maybe I'm wrong about the baby, but having her hold it during church and look away so cooly while it cries would say horrible things about Peggy's family and her. It seems too much.
And that line to Bobbi about a the child hitting it's head and dying in her neighborhood--that's the signal that Peggy thinks about the baby she gave up whenever there's a local news story about a kid around the age of hers coming to harm.
No those boys could have been their brother's sons. But it is less far fetched to think those boys are cousins of Anita's child, than that Peggy's baby was in the room and Anita's was not. And Peggy holding her own baby like that in church? And her family letting her doing it after having a breakdown?
That can't be Peggy's baby unless she is complete nut case and her family is truly monstrous.
JimK,
Yes, and Don's advice seems very clearly about giving up the baby. I suppose this is what happened; it makes more sense, but the visual cues of Peggy in the bedroom not saying good night and the Easter Egg hunt threw me off. Damn it, I'm confused all over.
If there's a bar in NYC good for hosting the show on a Sunday night, I'd be game. Bars are usually less crowded on Sundays, so it's possible.
Peggy is 20-22 years old. Anita is probably younger than she looks, as is the mother. Their hairdos are now only worn by really old ladies. So they look particularly old to us.
Could Peggy's mom have had more children, elementary school age late in life? Yes. It would make them the baby's uncles, not cousins, but we'll see. Probably those boys are Anita's but it just doesn't work.
I just don't think that baby was peggy's. Anita's baby was born after Peggy's. Their mom says, "don't you want to see the baby?" To me this says Anita's baby. Anything else seems truly sick.
Where, oh where is Peggy's baby... Loved Peggy calling him "Don". Now that they both have the goods on each other, they are true equals.
Great transition... from Pete giving a sperm sample to Roger playing paddleball. Good one.
Am tired of Bobbie as are a lot of you. A little of her goes a long way.
Very sad scene at the end when Betty said "because we love him".
Every comment and observation in this blog about the multi-faceted characters has insight. It shows how good the production is - the writers have created a believable world of prople with the complex personality traits we all have as flawed humans.
On a much less philosophical or literary note: I hope Bobbie (whom I enjoy in the Joan Crawford/Barbara Stanwyck role as the maneater with maybe a heart) will encourage Peggy to "dress for success". I look forward to a bonfire of the the jumpers, the round collared Ship 'n' Shore shirts, the overly pleated and plaid skirts from the junior miss department that hurt the eyes. And a little makeup to bring out those eyes, even out the complexion and lipstick badly needed. (The hair -- she has to retain bangs because her forehead is WAAAY back there.) Baby needs to get HER mojo on to get that corner office!
Draper is going to have a big-ass breakdown soon. You can tell. He said "I feel nothing". There is only so long before someone can't deal with the cool exterior.
Also, when are Ken and Peggy going to get it on? It's obvious that he's got the hots for her. He treats her the nicest out of all of the jr execs.
I thought the use of the color blue in this episode was interesting - possibly showing the evolution of "new girls" from secretary, to executive wannabe, to engaged and on the road to wife and stay at home mother? Joan's royal blue dress on the day after she's engaged, Don's secretary's aqua dress, Peggy's blue cardigan in the apartment with Bobbi, and then Peggy's stylish blue blouse in the final scene where she refers to Draper as Don. And then of course back to the blue egg from episode 4.
Did anyone notice the tune on Don's radio as he and Bobbi were on the way to the lake house? It was "Summer Place." A bit of a cliche, don't you think?
Peggy's child did not die. She's in denial that she had one. Just as Draper is in denial that he was Dick before. Also, her baby is also Pete's baby which sets up an interesting interplay because Pete's wife is infertile. Lastly, this whole pillow theory is not accurate. If you go back and watch the episodes from the past, you see like 4 babies in the upstairs room of Peggy's sister's house. One of the 4 is Peggy's baby--the blonde one. The others are her sister's babies.
jimk, you brought up something about Don needing rules and the ones he does have are failing him. Well, he has a new set of rules with Peggy and they seem to be working. Also, someone else brought up the fact that Peggy dressed down Don's previous secretary for being flip about him. This was before we realized there was a connection. Peggy is going to fight and cover for Don for many reasons. He has done a lot for her.
And I also want to point out that laws about people's medical records were sorely lax. Its really been the last decade or so where HIPAA Laws have come into effect. 2004 was when GW Bush signed the law for more stringent medical records privacy. (I work in the medical insurance field) So Don, back in 1960 (hell, even in the 1980s), could have easily asked about Peggy at the hospital. I'm sure the people at the hospital must have assumed that Don was the father, there were no other strange men coming around to see her. I'm sure Peggy's family assumes Don is the father. Its not like Pete came around looking for her, or Peggy mentioned anything about Pete. So in Anita's confession, she may have been referring to Don.
This connection between Don and Peggy will bite them in the butt, I think. Here they are covering for each other, but people think its for the wrong reason. Everyone in the office is whispering, Bobbi is making assumptions ... and then the baby gets discovered. With the exception of Pete, who will assume that Don is the daddy? Or not.
I just love the new Don/Peggy dynamic. I don't want it to be a romantic one either. I like them as thieves in the night.
I can't wait until its 1968 and Sterling Cooper is now known as Draper Olsen.
Draper and Olsen's relationship is hardly sexual. But i udnerstand what you're getting at drb. I think it's like there is a mutual understanding because they both have something to hide. But Peggy is immature still (she is only 22, 23, I think?) and she has a lot to learn. Business is business and people won't go out of their way for your, especially in advertising. Probably Don covered for Peggy simply because she was a great copyeditor and had some fresh ideas. It's business.
drbambee- I liked the point about Anita thinking that Don could be the father for her to say in the confessional that Pegs seduced a married man. However, we don't know how much Peggy talked about Pete (or Don for that matter) to her family. We'll see how the season goes....
I think the Peggy/Don professional relationship has some interesting potential. Don gravitates to strong women as conquests but now perhaps is evolving slowly toward respecting one of them as a colleague--especially a hard worker like Peggy.
I don't think it will play out as typical melodrama. On this show, Don just gives his brother $5000 bucks and then the brother hangs himself--he doesn't shoot him.
Both Don and Peggy give closed answers. Look at Peggy's answers to Bobbi. They are both searchers unhappy with what the world offered them.
It might not be love, but it could be the start of a beautiful friendship--or as much friendship as DD will allow.
I took Roger's paddle balling (my, that sounds quite vulgar!) as a substitute for his desire to paddle Joan's bottom for getting engaged (how dare she officially ruin his fantasy that she belongs to him!). Notice how he looks wistfully after her whenever she walks out on him. He does come right out and ask her to let him give her a few swats - does he add, "for old times"? Remind me - I can't recall.
Am I reading too much into that? It was a great scene. He seems to have great aim, by the way.
So happy to see Rachel again...she's the toughest woman Don has ever dealt with and he missed her terribly - you could see it in his eyes.
Timid Peggy will surprise us all and become a bigger part of the show.
Love how Don lives two very different lives - steak tar tar and hearts of palm with the mistress and meatloaf and ketchup with the wife and kids. Two very different lives, but they are both killing him.
Wow, your take on things is really impressive! I was kidding around and told my boss, Don, with Bobbie, is Dick Whitman, swigging out of the bottle, please!.......
By all means, I'm not at all looking for Don and Peggy to become romantically involved. No way. They aren't each other's type. And it would be very strange to see. I think what we see between them is what I think used to be called a "Gentlemen's Agreement". Someone might want to fact-check that term for me. They've entered into a quiet, discreet understanding with each other. They're the only ones who know that they've got each other's back. Its business. And I loved that this door has been opened for us to see it. Its something he can't have with the chuckle-boys at the office, nor with any of the husband-hungry office girls.
My gut tells me that Peggy hasn't spoken about anything happening with the baby to her family. I'm guessing the hospital must have told her family that a man came by to talk with Peggy, or they might have seen him. Hell, he called their house. Without any other proof of another man calling, I would assume that the insistant man calling about my daughter is the father of her child. You have a family looking for answers from a closed off daughter and they're getting clues where they can. Don called. Don showed up to the hospital. Don's a married man. No other man has come looking for her. And how unusual, for 1960, would it be for your boss - not his secretary - to go out of his way to look for you? As one of Peggy's family members, I would put all my daddy eggs in Don's basket.
Elizabeth Moss is billed as the lead female character. I'll love seeing more of her. The show basically revolves around Don and Peggy with forays into the other characters as they define Don and Peggy. Its just taken a little time for Don and Peggy to have scenes together again, but we had to build up to it. Don and Peggy are going to be a force to be reckoned with.
Maybe Anita was pregnant at the same time as Peggy, but had a still born baby, and is raising Peggy's baby as her own. Remember the American Airlines presentation was like "giving birth to a stillborn baby"...a little foreshadowing there? And Anita is so angry with Peggy, confessing Peggy's sin to the new priest, and always intimating how Peggy got away with it. I kind of think the scene with Don in the hospital may have been an halucination, but Peggy thinks it really happened.
This was a great episode!
I like the way Mad Men eases so smoothly into the flashbacks to fill in the gaps in the story. It all comes together naturally. One moment we're watching Peggy in the present and the next we see her a year or so ago in a hospital bed after she had her baby. I was wondering why Don phoned Peggy of all people to bail him out of jail. At first when I saw the legs walking in I thought it was going to be Joan. I thought how strange to choose Peggy. But then the flashback answered that puzzel when we learned that Don is in on Peggy's secret. Of course it wasn't entirely clear wheather Don believed the TB story, but I don't think he did. No wonder Peggy was so eager to serve him. Brilliant writing.
Cheryl, Don clearly was being sarcastic with the TB remark - he knew she was in a mental institution and that she would be kept there until she gave in to whatever it was her family wanted. I think that scene happened within a few weeks after the birth and the remainder of the year was spent with Peggy recovering her mental and physical state after being kept drugged for God-knows-how-long. I don't think he would have bothered to come looking for her after a full year had gone by - girls, even the smart ones, weren't valued that much back then. Don't forget, he had lost Rachael, Roger had crashed, Pete knows his secret and Betty is more and more over the edge - he needed a stable person in his life, but sooner, not later.
One thing about Peggy's baby vs. the baby at the Olson's. The baby at the Olson's is BLOND. Neither Anita nor Peggy are blonde. Anita's husband is not blond. Neither Pete nor Don are blonde. So where could the blond hair come from? How about the old boyfriend who's a Utz potato chip delivery man?
Okay, some blond kids end up with dark hair but it's an interesting thought, isn't it?
Re Peggy and the Law/"didn't think so":
Peggy was under 21 at the time she had the baby. I'm not certain about the law at that time but she may not have been legally able to give the kid up for adoption.
I think you guys are missing the biggest point of episode 5. Don is not playing a power game with Peggy. From last season, he has had a special treatment of Peggy. He slowly gave her more responsibility as she continued to show her loyalty to him. Don does not give people an inch unless he trusts them in some respect. Don saw the drive in Peggy and promoted her before he knew anything about her secrets. Don went to some trouble to find her in the psych ward at the hospital. He knew that somebody with her kind of drive does not just stop coming to work one day. At the hospital, he asked her pin point questions, “Why are you here, what is wrong with you”, she replies she does not know and he becomes very, very demanding, as he says, “listen to me Peggy, you have to get out of here, do whatever they say… this never happened, it will shock you how much this never happened”. To me, this is coming from a man who has been in her position. I think Don has already had his breakdown, a long time ago. He knew what it is like to be rendered a psycho and he knew that it would eat her alive if she didn’t fight back. We know some of Don’s past but not all. Before the days of anti-depressants, you had to use your will to fight a mental illness if at all possible, or else they’d have you all drugged up and rendered incompetent, etc. (Peggy said she didn’t feel like herself because of the drugs). I think Pete had been messing with Peggy’s head long before what we see in the show, and this is what led to her breakdown and her refusal to accept she was pregnant.
Also, I loved at the end where they had a slow motion of Peggy seeing Bobbie and Peggy watching Bobbie’s husband drool all over Don’s new secretary. This gave Peggy another reason to humanize the actions of Don.
I can't help but be excited about a future 'wedding episode'! I'm very interested to see what sort of wedding gown Joan would choose. Sort of a superficial observation, but I felt giddy after the scene in the office when Joan comes out waving her left hand at Don - how exciting! She seems like one of the only genuinely happy characters on the show right now.
Trudy just rubs me the wrong way - she seems so spoiled and bored. She needs to get a hobby and get her mind off the baby already.
I am hungry for more of Peggy's story! It's killing me that we only get bits and pieces every episode. Oh well, keeps me coming back for more - a sign of a great show.
FAS -
They were going to Stony Brook beach community on the north shore of Long Island.
Although it may have been cliché to play an already 2y/o song, but isn't that common with particularly popular tunes?
As I remember the Sukiyaki song was played in an earlier episode in an oriental setting but the song itself wasn't real popular in USA until 1963 or so.
Hey Laurie B! I certainly hope it's not the last we've seen of Rachel Menken Katz! But practically, as far as her portrayer, Maggie Siff's new show, it may be a one shot deal. It could be scheduling or a contract deal. Who knows?
The way the scene was written, Don and Rachel are still carrying a torch! If that new show doesn't pan out for Ms. Siff. And she becomes available for season 3, MM and Co. would be remiss in not having her return regularly. She can mess Don up like no other woman! Loves me some Rachel!
There is nothing more that I can say -- the posts by JimK and oldfashioned are brilliant. I'm continually amazed at the intelligence and writing ability of the people on this blog.
I also agree with most of what bocaratonfan has to say. All I want to add here is that, for all you Rachel-lovers, she's history! I knew she would marry a nice Jewish boy and do her father proud. Now there's a sensible girl! But I really do think it was just a token cameo appearance by Maggie Siff to explain away her character. I knew that Mr. Mencken would "fire" SC after he found out that the "goy" was "schtupping" his daughter.
Now maybe I'm a little more sensitive to these things because I'm Jewish, but here are a few observations from last night:
The new girl is Jewish ("Jane Siegel"). Clearly a Jewish name. I guess SC is starting to loosen up on its hiring policies. Will she and Ken Cosgrove become an item?
Don says to Rachel, "Is Grey taking over what we started?" Grey Advertising was/is a big Jewish agency.
Bobbie says to Don "Barrett was originally Brownstein."
Joan is marrying the (formerly) Jewish doctor.
Nothing profound; just things I noticed. After all the Catholicism last week, maybe they want to give us a dose of Yiddishkeit.
Love this show! Oh yeah, I think Don knows about the baby,and I think Peggy gave the baby up for adoption which was by far more common back then. I'm starting to like Bobbie too, and she is going to mentor Peggy as well as Don. We will see a BIG makeover in Peggy's appearance quite soon.
Blonde children. My father comes from a family of brunettes. He's the only blond child. I know a guy who has jet black hair, his wife is a brunette, their child is toe-headed. Not to make a sweeping generalization about white people, but I think for the most part, white people with dark hair are capable of having blonde children out of nowhere.
I think we're all agreed that Don has, unconsciously, picked Peggy to be his protege. He just seems drawn to the cut of her jib. Also, I'm sure his dislike of Pete has a lot to do with his favoring Peggy. So now Peggy has something that Pete and the other guys will never have, Don's trust.
And in a small way, Bobbi might take Peggy under her wing some more. Or Bobbi will be itching to discover the truth behind Peggy's blind devotion to Don. Either way, this is a delicious character to follow. Its really been this actress's summer, first her small role in The Dark Knight (Gary Oldman's wife, Mrs. Gordon) and now this. A far cry from The X-Files, as Scully's sister. Good on ya!
Mm.G. I'm also hungry for more of Peggy's storyline. I did read a spoiler somewhere that said something "big" is supposed to happen between her and another character. I can't wait for that.
I don't think we'll be seeing anymore of Menken-Katz. That's the ship that sailed away. She'll be missed.
Hi Ritt! In the episode when Peggy was out on a blind date with the Wise Potato Chip truck driver, she left the table during their meal and walked out on him. She said he was insulting her occupation, he said she insulted him for being a truck driver.
I posted shortly after I watched last night. I've had fun reading everyones posts so far today.
Greg- Yes, I too thought that the transition from Pete giving a sperm sample to Roger pounding on the paddle ball was hilliarious! Roger's comment that," He wants people to wonder what he's doing in there" when Joan asked him about the noise he was making, made it even funnier.
Laurie B.- The adoption theory makes sense, b/c that's is what they did then, but what about Fr. "Mc. Hottie" Gill making a point of giving Peggy the egg and saying,"For the little one." Is he as confused as we all are? I also agree that the only way,"This never happened" for Peggy would be to give the baby up for adoption.
I don't think that we've seen the last of Rachel either. She ran off and got married because her heart was broken by Don, but you could tell she still wants him. I'm thinking her new hubbie may please her father's desire to have her matched up, but I doubt he can make her feel as hot as Don did.
Did anyone else notice which magazine Pete selected in the doctor's office? It was the one showing bondage on the cover. And then when his wife accused him of not wanting a baby, she said it was because that perhaps he would rather see "Cape Fear" for the third time. A very interesting choice by the writers who never, as other readers have noted, include throwaway lines.
You know, it's entirely possible that Peggy's baby was given to strangers for adoption - and that when Anita whined to the priest that Peggy "got away with it" she means Peggy doesn't have to keep or raise the baby, and can go back to her glamorous job as if nothing happened. No scarlet letter, no squalling kid in the tiny apartment. The tow head toddler is Anita's or the son of one of the brothers. Also, we are assuming Peggy got pregnant by someone at SC. As jamm has pointed out in prior posts, she sure didn't act like a virgin when Pete showed up and she let him spend the night. She's much slimmer now than when the show first started - maybe she was already pregnant by someone from the neighborhood. Maybe the Utz truck driver. She had a chip on her shoulder with him a mile wide.
We know the baby was born right before Thanksgiving 1960, a few weeks after the election. When Don showed up bedside, he said her Christmas present was still on her desk. How long had she been AWOL before he went to see her? A month? Also, Don might not necessarily know about the baby. She was not in the maternity ward, but the psych ward. She must have stayed out of work for at least several months to lose all that weight and no one in the office really knew how she did it - they presumed a fat farm.
I wanted to get my thoughts out for discussion maybe?
1) When Peggy first started at S.C., several people told her how Mr. Draper would want to/like to see her legs/ankles. VA VA VOOM, middle of the night, picking up the naughty Mr. Draper, those legs looked mighty fine, and not-so-sensible heels at 1 a.m.?? Who else thought it was Joan???
2) If Mom keeps telling Anita what a beautiful & wonderful girl Peggy is, why would she torture Peggy, sort of admonish her, "aren't you going to say goodnight?" if this is something painful for Peggy? Why would Mom rub it in?
3) Why would Don get so uncomfortable with Peggy calling him Don? He treated her as "one of the guys" by calling her to help him out; why so odd to have her call him Don? None of the other "men" call him Mr. Draper, do they?
Regarding Joan, just a show or 2 ago she was made fun of for her "old" age. Perhaps she felt pressured to get married?
On Peggy's baby, I first though the notion that Anita's baby died was far-fetched, but it would help explain some of her anger in the confessional booth.
And finally, some writer on this show must have a thing for S/M sex.. there have been quick references all along (beatnik girlfriend said something about it, Roger and his paddle, Don's grabbing of Bobbies in the restaurant) and of course next week's preview is quite blatant. Can't wait to see DD in action....
Ha! I just read the comment about the bondage magazine above. I didn't catch that - will have to sit closer to the TV.
Wasn't there something in the Peggy/Pete dynamic about some fantasy he had that was kind of odd but Peggy sort of got it? I can't remember that far back.
JimK: I especially enjoyed your comments. If you are not a psychiatrist, you missed your calling!
I thought this was a terrific episode. We got to see a different side of Bobbie. Although Bobbie is amoral, she is very intelligent and presages freewheeling women of the 70's and beyond. I loved the scenes with Bobbie and Peggy, and was quite touched by the kindness both women displayed toward one another. Bobbie seemed very genuine. When she's not around men (perhaps "the enemy" to her) she can let down her guard and be herself. Peggy was reserved yet I sensed a connection to another human being, which Peggy needs.
I have a question which may have been answered by another commenter: In the "Three Sundays" episode, did anyone else notice the two secretaries looking down and sneering at (what I thought was) Peggy? They were walking down the main aisle of the office on the day Peggy and the others are out in the middle working on the American presentation. It happened very fast, but they walk by and sneer. The one commenter who said the office "senses" a connection between Don and Peggy is right. It's not only her promotion, it's something more.
another comment upon further review. when peggy and bobbie are chatting while bobbie is on the couch waiting for the shiner to recede, peggy says two things that are so interesting me.
the first is when peggy says 'he's done a lot for me, he's made me a copywriter'. ok fine. but, i don't think it's a coincidence that they show the flashback of don talking to her in the hospital, saying, to paraphrase, it didn't happen let it go etc.
so i think she looks up to him not sexually, and not as a boss, but appreciates that the ultimate distant man, actually made an appearance for her, with words of wisdom in her worst moment. i don't think it was a drug illusion, i think it was real. and i love how there is no love story between the two but the most wisdom of words often happen between the two.
and the second thing is, bobbie then says the ultimate ironic statement in saying 'he's a decent man isn't he'.
and peggy's answer is so mad men and human classic: " i don't expect him to be anything other than what he is"
wow.
that's why he goes to peggy. because in his ultimate view of things, don actually doesn't see things like color or race or gender. peggy is not a female, she is an asset he can trust. he doesn't care what she looks like or who she is etc. he understands that he can call her over cosgrove or rumson or whatever. he's not political. that stuff doesn't matter to him in a time of social weirdness. a drinking buddy you'd think would be more on his mind. but no, he calls peggy. don is smart, he calls the girl instead of one of his buddies.
you don't find that interesting?
the only woman that understands him is the only woman he has no interest in. and i don't think matthew weiner would be so weak cliche as to make them have an affair, that's too amateur.
peggy- " you never expect him to be any other way than what he is".
the woman who is farthest from him is the one who understands him the most.
GemCat63/Gail Klein: Thanks. Not a shrink. Just love the series.
I agree with GC's observation regarding Peggy's need for direction/a role model outside of Brooklyn--she quickly outgrew Joan. Dick Whitman had many role models to choose from to create his "Don Draper" persona. Peggy needs a Bobbi. She's clearly reading business and marketing stuff--Eventually she'll need a college degree and putting her at say, NYU or City College in the 60's could be a very interesting storyline.
Don, like many children abandoned by a parent due to an early death has a tendency to seek an impossible ideal in the opposite sex--thus his initial intense pursuit of Betty because of her classic 50's grace kelly look. His desire for something bohemian with Midge and his foolish belief that Rachel was his soulmate. His misunderstanding about each woman is revealed over time. Betty is no "Angel" she's out shooting birds in the scene after he calls her that. Midge is really in love with her beatnik boyfriend Don's little more than her employer thus he leaves her his bonus, and Rachel is disgusted by his lack of moral centeredness, which she views as cowardice. She looks right through him alright--but there's little of the compassion one would hope for from a soul mate. She's not interested in living beyond good and evil. Where's the room for Jewish guilt in such a universe?
With Peggy, I think Don has the chance for something different. This might be the first woman he can really work with and see as a real person, un-idealized. And it could be a relationship built on professional respect and at least in part an honest, not sexual connection. She's the only person he knows who has committed a sin on par with his dark secret. And that might be the basis for a beautiful friendship.
We shall see.
Gail is right about Cosgrove and Jane. Freddie's zipper concert "drowned out" Ken's first play for Jane. But they'll be more I'd bet. Harry & Paul have had their "B story" rides this season, seems as if Ken is due his.
Everyone has amazing comments! And I agree that Peggy seeing Don in the hospital was real, not imagined. If you're thinking it was imagined, you're making it more complicated than it is - and a fantasy show. This is a show about social change in America - not about hatches in the middle of some island or a Battlestar searching for Earth.
I also agree strongly with everyone else that Peggy and Don's dynamic is the most honest and interesting one on the show. I was incredibly surprised and happy to see her bail him out. The same goes for when he helped her out. And I also agree with everyone else that I would like to see this partnership grow, and NOT AT ALL IN A SEXUAL/ROMANTIC WAY. Its like Rick says at the end of Casablanca, "... its the beginning of a beautiful friendship".
What an amazing contrast Peggy and Don are to all the other characters. The men, including Roger, still act like frat boys. The women are desperate for husbands. Betty is just unraveling in her own way. You know, Peggy and Don can rule the world.
And I don't think there will be a new episode this Sunday because its Labor Day weekend. Instead they are doing a marathon. Weeds is doing the same thing. Double check that. I could be wrong.
if this is a repeat i apologize but this site has been having problems. but what i want to say is a comment on the whole bobbie/don thing.
like anyone else i can't stand bobbie. but what i do find interesting is the dichotomy between her and betty.
it's easy to say well yeah don is into bobbie b/c bobbie is easy blah blah.
but after watching bobbie for a few episodes i have to say as a man the reason don keeps going back to her is that he challenges her.
men don't respond to hugs. and we also don't respond to complaining. we respond to challenges; be that right or wrong.
if you throw the stick, too often we will go fetch it regardles of how smart or successful we are.
when bobbie pulled the whole thing with dropping her coat last week in don's office, she also said something to the effect of "don't give me a reason to be bored with you".
and this week when bobbie called him all loaded, when don doth protest, she said, "i'm about to change my mind", and she hangs up on him.
of course draper shows up.
we're aggressive like that. we respond to that.
the greater point is this: it doesn't make betty wrong b/c betty should be right quite frankly. but two women, (who are total polar opposite) who are not married to don, understand don better than his wife.
(remember at the end of the 2nd episode this year when the girl comes up to him and says i'm not your waitress but i'll take care of you or something to that effect. he says no and makes it clear. that girl was easy. he says no. bobbie is a royal pain in the ass and doesn't kiss his. he says yes though. the waitress who is a sure thing, he says no. but, the girl who is a pain in the ass constantly he says yes to. go figure.
{sigh, i know most of you don't want to hear the troubles of being a man but yeah honestly we're all dopey like that} ).
that's the dichotomy between bobbie and betty and even peggy. the easy thing is to say well duh he's a man. but what it's really about is he responds to challenges, and betty doesn't challenge him though. it's not about typical hackneyed male cliche.
there's areason this is up for tons of emmies.
it's all about don, a man who is in a triangle of women, yet the women aren't so simple as being sexual. great drama, bravo people.
if this is a repeat i apologize but this site has been having problems. but what i want to say is a comment on the whole bobbie/don thing.
like anyone else i can't stand bobbie. but what i do find interesting is the dichotomy between her and betty.
it's easy to say well yeah don is into bobbie b/c bobbie is easy blah blah.
but after watching bobbie for a few episodes i have to say as a man the reason don keeps going back to her is that he challenges her.
men don't respond to hugs. and we also don't respond to complaining. we respond to challenges; be that right or wrong.
if you throw the stick, too often we will go fetch it regardles of how smart or successful we are.
when bobbie pulled the whole thing with dropping her coat last week in don's office, she also said something to the effect of "don't give me a reason to be bored with you".
and this week when bobbie called him all loaded, when don doth protest, she said, "i'm about to change my mind", and she hangs up on him.
of course draper shows up.
we're aggressive like that. we respond to that.
the greater point is this: it doesn't make betty wrong b/c betty should be right quite frankly. but two women, (who are total polar opposite) who are not married to don, understand don better than his wife.
(remember at the end of the 2nd episode this year when the girl comes up to him and says i'm not your waitress but i'll take care of you or something to that effect. he says no and makes it clear. that girl was easy. he says no. bobbie is a royal pain in the ass and doesn't kiss his. he says yes though. the waitress who is a sure thing, he says no. but, the girl who is a pain in the ass constantly he says yes to. go figure.
{sigh, i know most of you don't want to hear the troubles of being a man but yeah honestly we're all dopey like that} ).
that's the dichotomy between bobbie and betty and even peggy. the easy thing is to say well duh he's a man. but what it's really about is he responds to challenges, and betty doesn't challenge him though. it's not about typical hackneyed male cliche.
there's areason this is up for tons of emmies.
it's all about don, a man who is in a triangle of women, yet the women aren't so simple as being sexual. great drama, bravo people.
Peggy had the baby (as we saw) but she killed it (the reference to the neighborhood child hitting its head & dying, Peggy wincing at the saying "Ain't that a kick in the head?") That's why she's in the mental hospital being given drugs to help her "relax & feel like talking".
Of course, everyone would assume it was an accidental death (except for Anita, who may suspect otherwise - "She does whatever she wants & gets away with it) & Peggy believes it as well (when she's advising the priest on his sermon, she tells him that if she truly knows her audience & believes what she's selling, it gives her confidence). Another would-be throw-away line from a show with no throw-away lines.
Peggy's being committed because she's overcome by grief over the death of her baby makes more sense than being committed because she gave birth & then shut down & stopped talking to anyone.
It would be a lot easier for her to forget everything that's happened & move on, as Don suggested, if her baby wasn't there for her to see every time she went to Anita's house, which makes me think that blond boy is Anita's son & that Peggy's isn't around.
Plus, it would be an even greater parallel to Dick Whitman starting over after he "killed" Don Draper.
Hey, I'm kinda liking this theory now!
That would make all the kids Anita's & explain Peggy's noticeable discomfort in having to be told to say good-night to her nieces & nephews & at having to hold the little blond boy in church ("He's the same age my baby would be...")
I don't know....maybe I just watched too much All My Children growing up.
I liked last season, but i'm loving this season! It seems that knowing more about the characters kinda fills in the gaps a bit more. I actually look forward to the next episode! The writers are really good, and the actors are amazingly conveying the essence of the period. I was thrilled when an African-American woman was introduced as the "girlfriend." I truly hope that part will be expanded.
OMG, This is way out there, but I think I've figured it out. "Do it, do what they say...this never happened...it will SHOCK you how much it never happened." The doctors in the hospital want to give Peggy SHOCK TREATMENTS. And perhaps Don/Dick knows all about how SHOCKING it is that the past never happenned. Although it's coming back in pieces. Just a thought.
JimK...DonnaC...Gail Klein...great comments! ...kudos every one participating in this rational discussion...!
Off to re-watch Episode 5...Totally missed the type of magazine Pete selected in the doctor's office...and missed the S&M reference in the Episode 6 trailer...I do remember Peggy responded to Pete's fantasy scenario, though...sigh...two kindred spirits...
I'm also going to re-examine the parentage of the children in the Olsen household (compare what we know against the conclusions we've jumped to). I'm not sure I follow the thought that they are children of Peggy's brothers...(What brothers???? Wait-a-minute!???)
Does anyone else think this was a great writing segue?...Don says to Bobbie, "I don't feel a thing" (and probably rarely does), and then boom...in a split second they crash and he now will definitely feel pain, etc...however, I believe that his feeling pain from the accident is only temporary...once he recovers, he will revert to his numbed state of being...
I said in a conversation recently that the scenes have an airless quality...it's so interesting..........any comments?
This truly was the most powerful and compelling of the S2 episodes so far. At the end I just sat transfixed staring at the screen and said "wow." I have to add that a lot of the posts on here are equally wow, you are a very interesting and intelligent bunch!
A lot of posts ago, someone asked (sorry I didn't note who) about what Bobbi meant when telling Peggy to not to try to be a man. I loved this piece of advice and think that in the context of the show it may seem like she's advocating for Peggy to up her level of sex appeal. I prefer to think of it in terms of a feminist perspective in that women are at their best when they ARE women and not some caricature of a man.
Greg--well, guys can be dopey and sentimental too. Guys always wonder if the grass is greener. I think that's why Don cheats. He enjoys the challenge of trying to tame the wild. Like I said in my previous posts, he's married to someone that is the picture of domestic life (so he thinks) but he is ultimately attracted to stronger women. Rachel, Midge, Bobbie, are all strong willed self made women who don't fall into his "let's run away" trap that he sets when he really just wants to restart his life again. His character is so multi-faceted. You never know what he's going to do next. He is a alpha male that wants what he wants. I thought it was interesting when he couldn't answer Bobbie's question as to what he likes.....he couldn't say what his passion was. In the car he finally admitted that he loved foreign films but so far we know he likes to smoke, drink, and work. Like Bobbie, Don found a profession and became the person who did it.
I too thought it was interesting when Bobbie told Peggy not to try being a man, but be a woman. I'm old enough to remember the late 70's/early 80's "dress for success" uniform of black or navy blue suit , white blouse and demure scarf or bow at the neck. I wince when I see pictures of myself in that uniform.
After they do the flashbacks showing Peggy boiling Trudi's Pet Bunny and Don putting the heart-attack inducing powder into Roger's drink thennnnnn we'll see the flashback where Peggy secretly kills her kid and calmly gets back to copywriting for Clearasil. And after that Luke and Laura will finally escape the Ice Princess and get back to Port Charles.
I don't think a blood alcohol level could have come back the nite it was drawn, if it would have been drawn--likely not as long as no one was seriously injured.
Also, that was a Nassau County patch on the policeman's uniform; Stony Brook is in Suffolk--altho the accident could have happened in Nassau.
I know that's not the point of the show, but part of our enjoyment of it is how it depicts life back then.
I wish MM would show more of the advertising business and less of who is going to be screwing whom. That is available elsewhere
"By JimK on August 26, 2008 12:05 PM
... And after that Luke and Laura will finally escape the Ice Princess and get back to Port Charles."
Dear Lords of Kobol! I remember watching General Hospital when all that nonsense was going on and Demi Moore, John Stamos, and Rick Springfield were on that show! Brings back childhood memories! And the stupid password to get the computer to stop freezing Port Charles was "Ice Princess"! How effing lame was that?!
Yes, Bobbi is right in telling Peggy to not be a man, but be herself. Come on, its no secret that women can generally flirt their ways into getting men, or lesbians, to give them a break or help them out. Although my charm wasn't able to help me out of a traffic ticket recently. It also didn't help that I mumbled "c**ksucker" just as the cop stepped up to my car. I swear I didn't see him until I turned around. Got the chicken**it ticket. Had to pay the fine.
Am I the only one sensing that Betty might be finding some joy in seeing Don's shell break? No salt!
Betty liked finding something Don "needs" for her to take care of--even if it is something as small as that (his salt intake). See how quickly she was mollified about his refusal to hit Bobby when he said what he did about being hit as a kid at the end of ep4. Trying to connect with Don in one way or another remains a core issue for most of the other characters on this show.
Some of the posts are WAY out there, especially when it comes to Peggy's baby. Blond/not blond, dead/not dead, the brother/nephew/ of Anita/Anita's mother, Peggy killed him, it was stillborn, the son of one of the brothers, (?? what brothers?) etc. Ridiculous!
LaurieB: the stuff about the brother/nephews/cousins got started because a poster said Anita was raising Peggy's baby because the Ep 2 synopsis on the MadMen Episode Guide page said so.
I checked it out. Here's what it says:
"As Peggy prepares to leave her sister and mother, her sister asks, "Aren't you going to say goodnight?" Peggy briefly peeks on a blond-haired blue-eyed infant from the doorway of the bedroom he's sharing with his cousins."
Since we agree that Peggy's baby was very likely put up for adoption and you are so certain that it is "ridiculous!" to speculate just who those cousins of the baby are in that room-. What do you make of the synopsis?
I think it's meant to throw us off and that Anita and Peggy's father on the couch mentions a "Little Gerry" at one point.
But the baby can't be the brother and the cousin of the others in the room.
Just trying to work it out logically. Didn't mean to seem "ridiculous!" Would love to have you read the ep synopsis and get back to us with the un-"ridiculous!" answer.
How could Peggy have killed her baby? The more posts I read.....this is exasperating! Follow along..... 1. Peggy was admitted to the hospital Thanksgiving weekend where she gave birth to a baby boy who was NOT stillborn because the nurse brought the baby to her and asked if she would feed it. Peggy is in total denial about being pregnant or giving birth. 2. Approx. 1 month later, Don finds her at St. Mary's where she is still in denial and is being given psychotropic drugs. 3. Peggy's mother and her sister Anita come to the hospital. Don't know exactly when that was, but Anita is visibly pregnant.
What "Brothers" are you posters referring to? The only family we know of Peggy is her mother, her sister Anita and Anita's husband on the couch. And then Anita and couch-potato have several small children. That's it!
The boys can't be cousins to Anita or Peggy's babies if they' ar their brothers. But if they are the sons of brothers we don't clearly see, or if the synopsis was written in haste it works. But if they were giving away the fact that that was Peggy's baby in the room, I think they wouldn't have been so cute about it.
I agree with the poster about General Hospital. Is that what Mad Men is about? Who's pregnant? Did she kill her baby?
I, for one, don't give a shit.
The point of the show how the characters develop during times that were--or are about to be--a-changing.
If it looses that perspective--and from these posts it is about to--what's the point?
Question for the guys out there. What do you think of Joan's figure? Do you think she's gotten fatter this season? Do you think her ass is huge? Just wanting a male opinion on this.
Greg: Thanks for weighing in on the male perspective of all this. We women tend to think you guys have all the confidence and all the answers.
GailKlein: Where's Allison? I thought she and Ken Cosgrove would get together. But I can see Ken with Jane now too. She's very pretty.
Visan: Let's hope Maggie Siff's new show gets cancelled :)
Doggone it, that was me about a "Baby Killing Peggy" being like General Hospital. Yet the synopsis did bother me. Probably some evil intern wrote it to mess with our heads.
Laurie B. I agree with you, sister, some of these theories are waaaay out there: Peggy imagined Don at the hospital, Peggy killed her child, Peggy created the question mark.
I think the thing speaks for itself and not much more than that.
As for Peggy's family, if someone creative out there could draw up a family tree ... ? I've read so many posts on the matter, I now think I'm Peggy's cousin twice removed!
As for the baby killer thing ... Peggy didn't want to bother touching the baby at all. How would she have the time to go and kill it and wouldn't she have been found out if she killed the child? I'm of the impression that the blond kid her family is constantly thrusting at her IS her baby. It seems simple to me.
Thanx, JimK for piping in, and sorry Laurie B. if I dragged you into my query...
JimK....Yes, the man lying on the couch is Anita's husband, Gerry. One of the two boys (seen at church in brown suits sitting side by side) is named "Little Gerry." Concluding the children are cousins, we can make attemps to identify their mothers. This is where nothing is set in concrete. We don't know where the babies are for Anita or Peggy.
My problem is assuming Anita's birth mother is the same as Peggy's. I have recently completed a lot of genealogy, and cannot tell you how often the older sister has raised a child as her own and went through life as a 'widow' with her own illegitimate child. Peggy certainly is doted on as if she were an only child birthed later in life.
Back to Joan though--could she be smuggling typewriters out of the office in her girdle and trying frame Paul for it in order to get even with him for publicizing her age at the office?
Re: Joan's Ass: Oh nooo, don't tell me we have another subtly disguised pregnacy a la Peggy's from last year and that Joan already has a bun in the oven and that's why she's now engaged....kidding, but, honestly, she seems more enthralled with the ring than her husband-to-be. Something tells me this marriage might not come off...we'll have to see.
RE: Joan - her ass does look bigger this year. Haven't quite figured out what they did, but her dresses are not as flattering and sexy this year. Looks like they're practically putting a tunic on her to cover from the neck to below the knees. The clothes look tight (but not in a good way), restrictive, and like she's got one big corset on her body and her psyche. I think Joan looks "matronly" this year - don't ask me how they did it, but she does to me.
Does Don seem clumsy/accident prone? Well, if the bondage previews with Bobbie are to come, hope he doesn't have an autoerotic accident via Adam's way out. Hope it's a fun S&M interlude! Think Don is getting pretty desperate emotionally, and really flailing around. Don doesn't seem to have come up with any workable solutions for his work, his marriage or his past so far. Can't imagine what he's going to do next, myself.
I think Joan's figure is entirely weird. And her clothes are two sizes too small. When you see her in profile, she looks dumpy, not voluptuous. As my dad used to say,"Looks like ten pounds of fertilizer in a five pound sack".
Re the new girl leaving her top two buttons open- I think it's funny how all the males reacted. Today they would probably not even notice because nothing is left to the imagination anywhere. It kind of reminds me of old stories where the Victorian gentlemen got all flustered when they saw a lady's ankle showing.
Gail Klein -- thanks for the kind words! Love your posts, too.
Laurie B: Joan still does it for me, even if she's put on a few. When she wore that black dress the night her roommate professed her love to her...what was Roger's line to her about 'roaming those hillsides?' Yep. To respond even further to your point, I think it's a pity that our pop culture doesn't serve up voluptuous women like Joan (Marilyn types) as much -- women's magazines are particularly bad with this. Most of the women on the covers are bone-ass skinny, and that's what women are selling to each other? WTF? At least the lad mags have women with curves, even if too many of them are artifically enhanced. Skinny women are great, too, but it seems like that all we serve up today -- for every Audrey Hepburn, you need a Janet Leigh.
As to the whereabouts of Peggy's baby, I remain confused but am reminded of Bertram Cooper's line, 'Who cares?' I am sure it will be revealed - this season, I'm guessing -- but his exact whereabouts (mom's house, adoption, cemetery, Joan's girdle) is less important to me than other questions: When, if ever, does Pete Campbell (or Trudy) find out? Does Don know it's Pete's, or will he find out?
On a separate note, has anyone bought the DVD and listened to the commentary on episodes? Good stuff -- Weiner is great, and the commentary with Jon Hamm and Roger Slattery together is a pisser. Slattery in particular is hysterical. I've only listened to a few, but one thing jumped out: Elizabeth Moss (I think) was saying that there was a rumor on set that Weiner planned to kill off a character in Season One -- something about accidentally/purposefully falling out the window like the opening credits, and it was rumored to be Harry, but Weiner changed his mind. Anyone else catch that? I'm pleased they didn't off Harry, as I love that guy. I actually hope they refrain from killing off characters too much unless it makes sense -- for instance, I'd be sad to see Bertram go, but there's a logic to it. Don't kill Harry, Peggy, Pete, etc.
One last thing: does anyone else find it hysterical that Don's response to everything personal is 'What do you want me to say?' He offers some variant on that question constantly, to everyone, whenever something awkward comes up. He's so impotent in his personal interactions. He needs help; Hamm plays that guy's internal anguish beautifully. Somebody, I think Dry Manhattan, suggested that advertising is therapy for Don. Nice thought.
@oldfashioned & Dry Manhattan: I think advertising WAS Don's therapy, philosphy, life structure, but I think it's failing him big time now. All the stuff he "bought" about advertising is coming up empty now (advertising sells you happiness - if you own what is advertised you'll be happy).
The Season 1 dvd commentaries are really great, aren't they?
Was it just me, or did Don's new secretary look like Roger's call girl?
I think Anita is Peggy's Mother - I think someone else had posted that long ago. It was not unheard of (Bobby Darin, Jack Nicholson both later learned their "sisters" were their mothers). Anita is angry b/c Peggy has made the same mistake she did.
Flowerpower is right. I'm not sure if it was the camera angles but Joan's body looked totally distorted in Episode 5-like a cartoon caricature of the curvaceous broad of that era, and a hard-edged brothel madam. Up to then, she seemed a bit too buxom and sexy for that office but nonetheless eye candy for male executives. Jane seems much for refined and suited for the S & C office.
Hello everybody! I'm on the floor, hysterical, over all the banter about Peggy's baby. "Who gives a shit?. . . it's in Joan's girdle . . . Peggy threw him out the window ". . etc., etc. etc. C'mon, people, let's just watch and enjoy the show! All will be revealed in good time.
Laurie B: Allison? Ken just wanted to see her panties. Jane has really caught his eye. In case you didn't read my post from yesterday, she's Jewish. This is going to open up some interesting chat about Jews vs. Gentiles, inter-dating, intermarriage, etc.
And yes, I've noticed Joan's put on a lot of weight. On another thread, I wrote that Joan is starting to realize what happens to girls after they've been in New York for a few years. She's over 30, been around the block a few times, and is starting to feel the passage of time. We don't yet know if her feelings for the doctor are sincere, but she probably feels that it's time for her to settle down. However, I do sense some jealousy on her part over "the new girl." Jane is 10 years younger, pretty, and usurping her position as office sexpot.
I don't think she's pregnant; just getting older. Remember, this was before people "worked out" in gyms, did Pilates and yoga, ran, etc. Exercise was not the high priority in people's lives that it is now.
And now that she has a steady relationship and is engaged to be married, she may not feel the need to be sexy all the time. She may be settling into middle-aged complacency. Roger has noticed it, too.
On the other hand, maybe she's eating too much because of the crappy sex she's having!
First time, please be patient.....I think that the baby was put up for adoption because Peg was an unwed Mother and when the nurse showed it to her, Peg rejected the baby. I think that the writers are setting it up so that Pete ends up adopting his own child! Don called Peg because he respects her and values her descretion. Don needs a confidant. He will not be able to keep up with the web of lies that he weaves without someone to back him up. When did Joan get a "boyfriend"? I think that she is pretending to draw attention back to herself. She is feeling her age (30ish) and is embarrassed to be alone.
Oh yeah jamm54 - There is no doubt Don is clumsy and accident prone.
Blood pressure meds, Phenobarb and all that booze straight from the bottle. Just before the crash Bobbi made some remark about how great she was feeling. Dons response was "I don't feel anything", he closed his eyes, and that was it.
He was forced to tell Betty about his High BP meds. If he complains when she withholds salt what will he do when she starts rationing the liquor. I have not noticed if he is still drinking at the office.
Geeeze! Listen to yourselves! Sure I noticed Joan looked a little curvier in that blue dress get up when she was talking to Rodger about her engagement, but I don't think we all need to "weigh" in on it. And we wonder why women have such bad self images. We might as well still be in 1960 ourselves! Joan still has it goin' on and I don't think we should slam her for a few pounds.
Let's keep the conversation on plot and character development.
So back to plot and characters..
Seriously doubt there was any baby killing, either accidental or otherwise. Think the best way to walk away from an unplanned pregnancy in 1960 was adoption, but the state had to wait for her consent. That's why Don probably said,"Do what ever they tell you and get out of here."
They probably were waiting for her to show signs of getting it together so that she was considered in her right mind to sign consent for adoption.
Peggy takes the advice of Don and is "amazing herself at how much she can forget about it." (all w/ Don's help of course) Now she's getting pointers from Bobbi that again she is "amazing" even Don with. The look on his face when she called him Don...Priceless!
Oh, and Gary's insights on Don's attractions to certain women and why. Interesting... But I'm not sure he doesn't see Betty as a different kind of challenge as well. He has a whole good suburban successful husband/father role to play w/her that is indeed a challenge. It's totally contrary to who he was in his past. He couldn't have a woman like Betty if he were Dick Whittman still. She's a privleged society girl. She is still a trophy he has to keep polished in order to keep his persona as Don Draper up.
I also think as far as Betty goes, she does adore and care for him. I don't think the w/holding salt was controlling, it was her way of saying she cares. She doen't want to believe that he is unfaithful, even if she has her suspisions. I think the truth would kill her. She is fragile, but still willing to fight for her man if she has to. I think she tries very hard to connect w/him and bring him in on their family life. She may be a little shallow and disconnected, but I still think she has hooks on him.
Swanky K: I personally love Joan, think she's one of the most "real" characters on the show--and that includes her wonderful, voluptuous figure. Can't speak for the other posters of course, but if there's one thing I've learned from watching Season 1 and Season 2 thus far, it's that nothing on MM is a throw-away, and that includes the character's appearances and wardrobes. If we notice changes in Joan's figure, it's because we have at least one precedent last year with Peggy's figure changes, which, btw were very subtly done over time. People kept trying to figure out for weeks if she was pregnant, which indeed it turned out, she was.
I think sometimes, we get so involved in the characters' personal dramas, that we forget that Weiner is also placing them in a broad social and chronological continuum and using them to give us a picture of the era and the changes that are happening. Fashion and body types are often dismissed as superficial and "frivolous" (especially in this puritanical country) but like so many other things in popular culture they have a language all their own that tells us a whole lot about the society in which they're worn. For example, we're starting to see Betty in pants a lot more this season, don't know if the "Dick Van Dyke " show was on the air yet or not in '62, (think it was), but Mary Tyler Moore caused a sensation by frequently wearing slacks then, which women still didn't routinely wear.
To get back to Joan, as other posters have said, she is indeed looking a little more matronly, especially in comparison to the "new girl." She's now showing up in prim blouses with bows, something we haven't seen her do before Certainly, it is the passage of time, and not working out the way people do (or say they do) now, but there's also a societal thing going on here: Joan's vava-voom body type is on the way out, like another "old girl" mentioned on the epi, Marilyn Monroe (who literally would be dead before the year was out). I think that kind of body type was associated with the huge emphasis on procreation and the post-war abundance of the fifties and that as the times changed and things started to get less structured it was also reflected in the fashions that followed. With a huge baby boom generation (who wouldn't have to worry about spreading figures and working out until much later, fashions (and the body type that became favored) inevitably changed. Goodbye "foundation garments", hats, white gloves, hello , minis,hip-huggers, levis, and patchouli oil!
Loved, loved this last episode. To all the doubting-Thomases and Thomasinas out there I Season 2 reached critical mass with this one, and the pieces are beginning to come together. So many great moments, too many to mention. The flashback with Don and Peggy in the hospital was just brilliant. Am really enjoying reading the posts as well, so many intelligent folks out there as well as those with very lively imaginations :-) JimK your analyses are spot-on, wish I could express the psycho-sociological undercurrents as succinctly. Look forward to reading more.
I said it before ... part of Mad Men's success was due to the fact they had one of their lead characters (Joan) as a gorgeous voluptuous woman who is not a size "0" and after all the emmy nods the makers of this show likely increased her size ... either by telling the actress to gain weight or put more padding on her and I will also repeat I hope this concept takes off
imagine ... tv shows and movies with regular weight people
really she is not fat but we are so used to seeing anorexics on the screen and in the fashion magazines and I bet if we saw the actress christina hendricks in person she is likely a regular looking person
I can't wait for Oprah to have the entire cast on her show and also ....
Saturday Night Live will do skits for sure and perhaps Christina will be the host
Laurie, Got your prediction. I think you're about right. Joan's ass has definitely grown. I'm not into the baby's got back BS, guess I'm just too German to understand the concept, to me that just means the chick's a fat ass. Joan's not moving the Peter Meter into the red numbers this year the way that she use to. Joan, and damn near everybody else, doesn't have her MOJO going which basically is my complaint about all of the characters this season. Where's the swagger? Every character seems to be on downers and suicide watch. There are no highs and lows, just lows and lower lows. I want some triumphs to go along with the lows. I'm certain that this is why the ratings are down. If I were a new viewer I'd have blown this off after the second episode. Who needs the depression?
Maggie can't be that busy with her other show, hey Slattery does it and Roger's got heart trouble. Maggie's just going to have to suck it up and make the sacrifice necessary to bang Jon Hamm. I'm sure Visan (and most women) would work the overtime needed to get that job done.
Dennis, you may be onto something about lower ratings! I've read many comments on various boards that say the "down trodden" characters turned off viewers and they tuned out. Some even said TV was their escape from stressed and didn't want to watch a bunch whiny rich folks! LOL!
Also, Dennis, you know me so well! I'd indeed work OT, triple OT even, to bone that fine piece of man-meat Jon Hamm! :P
I dont believe Don would have gone with Bobbie to the shore (and swigged out of a bottle of booze on the way) If he hadnt just found out that Rachael was married. He was REELING from that run in.
And when he told Bobbie he didnt feel anything he was stuffing all his sadness over Rachael.
Mimi...he might have been inviting Bobbi to make him feel again....
Remember when she told him it didn't feel like he didn't want to do what she was offering him in the car? In his office, in spite of his protests, she threw her coat on the floor and found a way not to let him bore her. At their dinner together, she had told him how she next wanted to have him (lying on the sand listening to the ocean). In the car she told him she felt 'so good' and he told her he didn't feel a thing (note the smirk on his face)...and she promptly slid over and he succumbed to the ecstacy.
Don likes how Bobbi is in touch with her feelings and is showing him how out-of-touch he is with his own. She takes charge....different from Betty who just wants Don to tell her what to do (in the bedroom).
I agree that he was shocked to see Rachael, but I don't think he decided to go with Bobbi because of it. Bobbi had control of their evening from the moment he walked into Sardi's....
I'm with Mimi. He is devastated about Rachel.
When Bobbie was teasing him that he didn't even know what he liked, didn't he say something like "It's huge." ??? I can only hope he was referring to his tool. :) OK, sorry, I couldn't resist that remark.
I'm joining the choir with Laurie and Mimi! Our boy Don was devastated to see the Ravishing Rachel with that dud of a husband!
Frankly, it had nothing to do with Rachel being married, IMO. (Evidently, Don's not one to care about the marital status of the women he takes to bed!) Just that she saw him out with his latest, er, conquest.
Madly obsessed, I don't think Bobbie was suggesting that Peggy use sex to succeed, but to use being a woman in a way that differentiates her from the pack. In those days, a smart, successful woman was sexy in a way that had little to do with whether she actually had sex with anyone - it was strange and therefore, compelling, for a desireable woman to also be capable doing "man's work". I actually knew male executives who prided themselves in having an attractive assistant who was "theirs" - the office lounge lizards would hang around and get nowhere because the woman had an almost mystical power, being both female and smart. Remember the line in Season 1 when Peggy did something well and one of the guys said it was fascinating, like watching a monkey play a (musical instrument)?
Someone noted elsewhere that Don and Rachel are over - get over it. Yes, that affair is over - doesn't mean that Don's over it at all.
The "Meditations in an Emergency" book from the first episode (Valentine's Day) which he was mailing - it was to Rachel, no one else. Rachel was still very much on his mind a year and a half later (from Nov 1960 to Feb 1962)!
Now it's a few months later (April 1962, maybe?), and Don runs into Rachel, and she's married? Also, Rachel sees that Don's up to his usual - wining, dining, probably bedding another female client? Yeah, he feels bad. Not only has he lost her, but he hasn't changed at all, and Rachel got to see that. More self-loathing!
@Dana, the drinking at the office has toned down, but Don's hitting the bottle pretty good straight in the door before he sits down. Even the housekeeper noticed it a couple episodes ago. Both Betty and Don seem to be hitting the sauce more than they did, when at home.
As for Joan's wedding - it's going to be a fiasco, I think. Joan is so hooked on the traditional schedule (out of high school, work, find a man, marry, produce babies), it hasn't even occurred to Joan to question if that's what SHE would be happy with.
Joan was happiest screwing Roger, and meeting in hotel rooms on the sly, and swiveling all around the office garnering looks of appreciation. Does anyone really think Joan is maternal? I don't. Too bad Joan doesn't realize that now.
Gail Klein: So Jane Siegel is Jewish. Did they say that or should we assume because of her name? Was that pretty reliable back then? Because as you know my last name is tres' Jewish and yet I am a Catholic school veteran of the '60s.
She's very pretty and I think you're right that she'll be in some interesting storylines. Harry Crane - is that a Jewish name?
Prediction: Last episode of the season is Joan's wedding, where, of course, some disaster happens. Like.... her betrothed will be related to Rachel Mencken somehow??? And she'll be at the wedding? And she and Don will... OMG I hope so!
A comment on the Don/Peggy relationship - I definitely don't think it's sexual. Don sees in Peggy someone who can take action and solve a problem; perhaps he gained more respect for her after she got out of the mental hospital, gave up the baby for adoption?, came back to work and did a great job as if "it never happened."
When Betty berates Don for not calling her the night of the car accident, Don says, "Solving a problem Bets, I needed a clear head. You can't get all hysterical." He views Betty as a little girl who gets hysterical, loses control of her hands and crashes her car and needs to see a psychiatrist. He called Peggy because he knew she could be trusted to keep her cool and also keep the accident (and affair) a secret.
Side action on Mad Men....It's really weird but I hated Pete and Peggy. He's so un-sexy to me. Roger with twins, hookers and Joan skeeves me out despite his being a Silver Fox. Harry and Hildy was just ridiculous! But if Don doesn't have some hot piece on the side, I find the show unenjoyable to watch! I prayed he strayed! LOL!
Hey bluegg, just wanted to tell you that I noticed everyone was in all shades of blue, too, last episode. That was no accident, either, in costuming. Was it just Joan, Peggy, Jane? Wonder what that meant - it was weird!
Visan: Pete and Peggy are both the most un-sexy people in the show. I think Harry Crane's sexier than Peggy. I think Dale the snoozer is sexier than Peggy. Freddy Rumsen's zipper is sexier than Peggy.
I know not every character can be sexy but Pete is just, ewwww! The voice, the suits that look 3 sizes too big for him, and his teeth bug! Maybe if Peggs would stop wearing that ridiculous preteen ponytail and irksome bangs, she'd be at somewhat cute!
Well, at least there's Don Draper to look at and listen to! Hell, his voice and jawline make the damn show! *Ha!*
I just wasn't certain because it was coming from Bobbie. I had wondered if she was giving her advice as Joan had, but it makes a lot of sense. I wonder how this is going to work out for Peggy.
I had expected her to look more stylish in season 2 because the promo pics had her looking very feminine with pearls, earrings, a nice dress. When the season opened it was the same ol Peggy. Maybe it's a look ahead.
jamm54: Yes, I noticed Carla, the housekeeper eyeing how much Don was drinking. She wouldn't let him drive her to the station. She didn't want to get into a car with that lush behind the wheel. Doesn't she remind you of Lana Turner's black housekeeper in "Imitation of Life?"
LaurieB: Well, I am assuming that she's Jewish, of course. Why would they give her a name like Siegel unless they were going to explore the Jewish theme?
The child who died (in Peggy's conversation with Bobbie) is the son of the woman in ep 4 with the bundt cake for Fr Gill - she's either Mrs Casey or Mrs O'Neill.
I don't think that just because of Fr. Gill messing up and thinking the woman in ep4 with the bundt was visiting her son somewhere rather than the cemetery means necessarily that was the child Peggy was talking about.
In fact, I very much hope not.
I think the power and the importance of peggy's comment to bobbi about the child who was stuck in the head and died is that it highlighted her anguish, buried, but always present, about the child out there somewhere she gave up for adoption.
When kids about that age are in the news because they've suffered injury or death she will wonder and she will suffer.
It is not the child of the woman in ep4 for this reason. The death haunts Peggy because she didn't know the child in question. If she knew it was the neighbor's kid, she would know it wasn't possibly hers.
This is why again ANITA IS NOT RAISING PEGGY'S BABY.
And that IS a big deal for this character. It isn't a minor plot point.
If Peggy can visit her kid anytime, if the kid is in the house with her family and she see him grow up then the kind of broad anguish, the never-ending anxiety the troubling, profound questions about the choice she made doesn't exist--and then she can not be a true peer to Don that I think the writers want to grow her into being.
Don failed in the masculine arena--under fire he stole the dog tags of a dead fellow soldier to escape the army. The decision at that moment made complete sense in his near-mad state. But it changed his life forever and set him on a course for a life very different than the one his "family" Whitmans led (poor farmers).
Peggy failed in the feminine arena—she rejected her baby--not just rejected by giving up but by denying she'd even had the baby. Her state made sense in her near-made state. She had sex before marriage with a married man and got pregnant. She failed her family, church and the test of a moral woman in that puritanical culture. The result of her decision not to raise that baby keeps her on and accelerates the course of her life away from her family (Outer boro working class catholics).
And Don helps her do this. Like the army was for him, he is her enabler. As her boss he can cover for her the way the army mistakenly covered for Dick Whitman's decision to desert.
If her baby is being raised by her bitter, angry envious sister who uses the sacrament of confession to disparage Peggy, surely she wouldn't be shocked by Fr. Gill's egg comment: "For the little one."
Because if that baby was in Anita's house the neighbors would KNOW. Fr. Gill's line has power because it is a sudden, terrible reminder to Peggy of the vulnerability she must live with. She'd nod her head ruefully if the baby was living at her sisters. She looks shocked because she doesn't expect that the priest would know. That her sister would, out of spite and envy, and to damage her reputation with this respected figure in her neighborhood, comes as shock because she believed that by giving the baby up for adoption she has done what Don has told her to do--to move on. But people like her sister and Don's brother, out of their own needs want to keep the terrible truths alive.
Just as Don needs his half brother to get out of town, Peggy needs to get out of that neighborhood, that church and that family --to separate and keep space between her self and her terrible choice and those who would expose her.
Both of them naively ran to something in the hope of escaping their narrow existences. Don to the army, Peggy to arms of an old-monied Ivy Leaguer. Each failed them both in short order, but did grievous harm to them and drove them into decisions that have made it impossible for either of them to be truly honest or truly at ease.
If Peggy and Don are fated by Weiner & Co. to develop some kind of deep friendship/professional alliance, they will be drawn together because at core they are both haunted by their past-- because they can not escape their mistakes by running and because they have very few other people to turn to in their lives who they can engage with truthfully.
For them, the 60's will be a relief. For others like Roger and Joan it will be waterloo.
Peggy hasn't learned Don's darkest secret, but if she does, she will not turn on him because of it. She cares about him too much. She has shown she can keep secrets that she carries her own secrets with Draper-like control and that makes her a possible place to turn for him. Look how she answers Bobbi's questions. Not as deftly as Don yet, but still with determination not to give up very much to anyone.
Don and Peggy fear they will pay for their desertions--somewhere, someday. And that makes them unique on this show. Think Roger is haunted about Mona finding out about his secrets? I don't think so.
Remember when Pete confronted Don about who he really was and Don picked up the phone and then put it down because he had no one he could call for help?
Peggy is not even close to being that person yet. But she just might be there one day. Not necessarily in bed but in some kind of relationship.
He knows Peggy's profound secret. I think Pete will reveal Don's to her --probably drunk, out of envy. But their secret--the baby-- will come to be known by Don.
I know many think Don is just a selfish amoral monster who looks hot in a grey flannel suit. I think that's selling the character --and the writers who created him-- short.
He has lived in reaction to that fateful, hysterical choice in Korea for a dozen years. And in all that time, he has found no refuge. Proper Betty never heard the story of his life he finally revealed to Rachel in the wake of Roger's heart attack. Only in a moment of real existential terror and mistaken belief that he had a real soul-mate in Rachel does he let us know his origin story.
These two believe in their darkest thoughts that they are deserters. If they are to heal and stop running, they will need someone who has sinned as grievously to tell them they are not alone and are worthy of being forgiven.
That doesn't require sex.
Harry compared Don to Batman, in season one. Like that twisted playboy who created a new identity to cope with a horror he couldn't face, Emotionally, Don needs an ally, one who knows his secret identity in order to help him function.
His "clumsiness" seems to be fueled by thoughts of his past. His sexual recklessness by pain and lonliness. And his drinking is getting worse. Somehow he needs to relieve the guilt and fear that is clearly affecting him if he is to go on functioning.
Batman had Robin. Don might just have Peggy one day.
I will agree that it felt like work watching the first four espisodes of season 2, There were a little interesting points, Peggy meeting Father Gill, etc but on the most part I was getting bored with it, and disapointed, especially after the season finale and then jumping two years later. The New Girl episode has brought back that feeling the first season did and I know most questions will be answered her on out. After reading some of the posts and then watching this episode again, I am astonished where some of the idea, suggestions and assumptions are coming from. Some are fantastic and some are out of this world. I suggest watching the show as a part of history unfolding, thinking about what that generation went through, even our parents and grandparents. My mom won't watch it because when she did it brought up to many memories for her, some not so good. She said I lived it, I don't wish to remember what offices were like for some women and choices that were made or even made for us. It was a time of war and peace and change and women's struggles, not to mention the issues with race and culture. Look how far we have come, and this show is a great reminder of what we had to do to get there. Even though I am not from that generation, it has brought me to wonder what it was like for my parents. I can see my mom in an office like that and I can see my dad doing all the major dept store layouts all over the country. What it was like for them both.A lot of time, investigation and commitment went into creating this show. Remember when Matt Wiener said some like, the fruit on the table was to big for that time, or the crew raided their parents house for props, it is well done and as close to history as we can get, even the dialect is as accurate as can be.
The issue about Peggy's baby - from what I understand women who gave birth out of wedlock back then didn't have a choice to keep it, it was adopted out. It's not Don's baby, come on...the writers wouldn't do something so soap operaish. Don was there as a concerned boss - haven't you ever had a boss that surprised you by there thoughtfullness and help you out. That's why he was there - his past experience tells him something big happened with Peggy and he's gone through it, afterall, he is protecting his name or covering it up at least isn't he, he started a new life by forgetting and it will shock you how easy it is to forget.
Joan - I believe she is getting married and "I am coming back" is just that, she is coming back to the office not Roger, she said she was faithful to whom ever she was with. She is also has power - she controls the entire office, even Roger. The only one I haven't seen much interaction with is Don. Maybe she is just lonely, as it can be lonely having some power.
Pete & Trudy - Even with the mention of mumps when Pete was 11 or 12 I still think he is the father. No wife would go the length she did and agrue with her husband about a baby and keep it a lie about where Pete was verile or not. Pete is just not ready to be a father. I think Trudy is a little to Fru Fru anyway for the character.
Betty - Ok so I guess she is all better now, after finding out last season her husband kept tabs on her counselling. It's wierd, this season at the beginning she was showing some independance and strength and now she is back to her little dotting house wife.
Regardless of which way and what will happen to the characters, this is a great show and these stories come from somewhere, we are recreating and past to create a future.
I just want hot sex and some great advertising pitches. You must be the psychiatrist that's working on Betty. It’s a frickin’ TV show which last season was actually entertaining television before all of the characters became sullen psychopaths.
Give me Roger humping Joan over this crap any day.
JimK,
"For them, the 60's will be a relief. For others like Roger and Joan it will be waterloo."
Great line, and nice analysis once again. I agree that Don is a very sympathetic character; he is constantly anguished. It's funny that he pegs advertising as selling 'happiness,' and he asks Roger why would anybody not be happy with all this. But Don more than anyone seems afflicted by anhedonia -- the inability to experience pleasure, an incapacity for happiness. Wonder if Teddy the Greek boss ever told him about anhedonia.
Your line of thinking on Peggy and adoption is spot on, too. That line about the baby who died really resonates in light of your analysis.
Re: Waterloo in the '60s, I've wondered about who from this show is going to make it out of the decade in better shape. There was a somewhat obscure movie called 'The Wanderers' and there's a scene where the leather-clad greaser goes into a bar to find the college girl he's pursuing and he sees Bob Dylan singing 'The Times They Are A-Changin.'' And in an instant, the guy is an anachronism -- time is leaving him behind. Really nice touch. I agree that the 60s are a relief for Peggy (she'll be very successful), and that Roger and Joan and the archtypes they represent are history. I'm not sure about Don. I think Don is an entirely sympathetic character despite his behaviors, but he is a closed book. The late 60s and all the 'openness' it brought, dubious though much of it have been ultimately, won't suit him. I think he's comfortable in his hypocrisies, as much as one can be anyway. Plus, he's a man who is invited to all the clubs, but doesn't fit in anywhere. Lonely soul, that guy is.
JimK: Geez, maybe you should take those 23 paragraphs and submit for publication somewhere. All brilliant commentary, but I'm not sure I want to be inside the head of every character on the show. I like letting it all roll out according to Mr. Wiener's master plan, whatever that is, and enjoying it as it happens, LOL moments and shocks along the way. It's a brilliant masterpiece and too much analysis will kill my enjoyment of this rich tapestry of characters.
Gail Kein/Old Fashioned: I agree with you.
LaurieB: I disagree with you.
"Inspired by Attention Deficit Theater"
Presents:
Ep5: "The New Girl"
Pete: "That's great news. Wow, with swimmers like mine it would be pretty stupid to boink a sexually naive secretary from Brooklyn on my office couch without protection, huh?"
Trudi: "Daddy, buy me new ovaries!"
Don: "If you're calling to ask to blow me in my office again, I'm afraid my revulsion outweighs my desire to keep you at bay right now."
Bobbi: "That's not the kind of meat I'm in the mood for, sailor. Just get over to Sardi's. C'mon, It's not like you're going to be caught obviously catting around by your lost soul mate with her nice jewish boy husband on her arm propelling you into an even deeper sub-basement of shame that will result in your usual flight toward reckless sex combined most unfortunately with your emotional strain-generated clumsiness. Right?"
Don: Okay.Okay, Okay ..
CRASH!
Joan: "Someday I'm going to wish the CIA, with Peter Lawford's help, killed me in 1962 like they will Marilyn Monroe. The way I'm declining, by the mid-1970's I'm going to look like Shelly Winters."
Roger: "Sweet Jesus, Joanie, you didn't have to take what you said to me about the '61 models having bigger tail fins quite so much to heart!
Joan: (turning sideways to fit through double doors) "So long Roger, too bad I didn't at least have sex with the one person who probably could have brought me to orgasm before I settle down with this dull as dishwater doctor. Yup, my lesbian room mate."
Roger: "Uh, Joanie, could you be a love and ask Jane Siegel to come in here to take some dictation?"
Jane Siegel: Hi, I'm Jane. And these, these are my breasts.
Ken Cosgrove: I'd like to guess the color of your ....
Freddie Rumson: I'm too sexy for my pants. Too sexy for my high, high, high waisted grey pants!"
Peggy: "Oh this is nice. You ARE a cheat and now my sister will have more to bitch about me in confession when your ho yaks in my brother in law's car."
Don: "Sorry Miss Olson. But stuff like this tends to happen when I mix horny hags and my inexpressible grief over the impossibility of real human connection with alcohol.
Bobbi: "Burp. Grin and Barrett, Honey! God, your waist is tiny even in those awful, frumpy clothes I can tell. Hey, have I explained yet whether Jimmy is a closeted homosexual or just digs my sleeping with other men?"
Doctor at St. Mary's Hospital: "I want to ask you a couple of questions..."
Peggy: "Okay. 1960 ... Dwight Eisenhower ... Because I used the relaxer-sizer improperly? No? What! But I've only had sex twice --- and only with some Ivy league creep who looks likes he shaves less often than Joan! This isn't possible. IT ISN'T POSSIBLE!"
Don: "On behalf of the President of the United States and Department of the Army, I'd like to award you the purple heart."
Peggy: "But ..."
Don: "Just go with it... Peggy, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship."
Now don't take this the wrong way - you're very talented, but I just can't help but feel that some of the posters here (including you) are using this forum to write these tomes showcasing themselves and how absolutely wise and brilliant they are. Ne sais vrai, hmm?
OK Laurie B, you got me. Now am I going to have to finger you in Lutece to make you undersand who's boss? Oh crap, Lutece closed in 2004, I guess we'll just have to keep it cyber...
But yes, you figured me out.
Who'd of guessed that a guy who clearly identifies with a character like Don Draper would write-self-indulgently long posts without concern for the feelings or bandwith issues of his fellow com MM fans?
That he would quickly come to view this site as little more than an godless struggle of all against all ...
Well if you're anything like our man DD, you can finger me in Lutece anytime..... oh never mind.
Anyway JimK, yes you got it. Brevity is the soul of wit (Shakespear). Although Dorothy Parker said "Brevity is the soul of lingerie..." but I digresss.
My first time here. Didn't even know this existed. However...after reading some of the postings, I think some of you need to take a cold shower. I thought this was a discussion of the show, but with some of these postings, well, this sounds like a sex chat! Any place to complain to AMC?
The reason I'm asking who lives in NYC is to try to pull together a convention of sorts. I know Gail Klein does, but there has to be several others of you out there too. I asked this question a few days ago too in another post, or maybe this same thread, I don't remember.
SummerMoon: Yeah, if you want to complain, scroll to the very bottom "Contact AMC". Sheesh!
Summer moon: I don't mine people who don't understand the show posting but people without a sense of humor--that's another story.
If you took the last few exchanges seriously really and didn't get their connection to Ep4, you should really head for "Law and Order" site. It's a better fit for your intellectual capacity.
The answer is I work there and live outside the city. Sounds like viewing party in the city would be a great idea.
Summer Moon:
Of course, when I wrote "viewing party" I actually meant "orgy."
So before you move on to comment on how amazing endless, incredibly lame expository dialog sounds when delivered by great actors like Richard Belzer and Ice-Tea, be sure to flag this comment.
Now we have a tattletale on the forum??? OH GROW UP--this is a public forum. Apparently Summermoon isn't a big fan of the 1st Amendment. As I told another thin-skinned poster: pour yourself a tall stiff one, rig up your Relaxicizer and live and let live.
Should I now live in terror of being reported to AMC-will this post go on my permenant record-will I be sent to the principal's office? Good grief . . . .
Redhead64 - Thank you. She also went into her tattle-tale mode over on the "Second Season - a Disappointment" thread. We were just having a little fun.
Although you contradict yourself SummerMoon. You first said you were new to the "Talk", then you said last year's Comments were better than this year. If you were on this forum last year, you'd know there are a ton of us from last year that are posting currently too. We've gotten into an easy conversational style with each other. Let it go.
This totally abhorrent, inappropriate, disgusting, barbaric, animalistic, forbidden, unprofessional and sleazy language has me thinking that I need to order a Relaxicizer asap from Ebay.
I just called my husband and asked him to come home NOW. We'll be reading aloud the posts by LaurieB and JimK as foreplay. Is foreplay a dirty word on this site???
I know I'm going straight to hell after I get reported by you know who!
Laurie B. - I live in NYC. What do ya want to know?
Old fashioned- you said something way up at the top that I want to comment on: Rachel's so called fast rebound from Don.
It's two years later. Remember? Not a rebound at all.
No, JimK, you didn't freak me out. It's like watching a ping-pong game, and every time these "little explosions" pop up once a while - it's funny!
Plop - Ascent - Fizzle!
This was truly nothing compared to the old "PeggySue" attack days.
You and LaurieB were being silly and having fun, and Mrs. Grundy dropped in to exclaim their "indignity" and take "umbrage" over your exchange. Took alot of effort to sort through 300+ comments for Mrs. Grundy to find something "offensive".
Your exchange is no-more pornographic or obscene than what we've been watching for the last 5 weeks! Oh brother, Mrs. Grundy, give me a break!
So many posts I can't even read them all! The last couple don't make sense to me but then having not been here for a few days, I guess I missed whatever. Don't want to repeat what's already been posted over and over. With all these posts I don't think there is much more to say on Episode Five. One thing however, is that the lovely actress playing Joan is becoming huge! I mean, perhaps it's all padding, but isn't she bigger than last season? She seems to have gone from a C to a double D cup, and her hips and derriere have increased quite noticeably. While I think it's refreshing for a change to see a woman who actually LOOKS like a woman (not some stick-thin thing like Peggy; no offense to Peggy fans but that woman is just not remotely attractive, at least to me), if Joan's dresses get any tighter there's going to be a wardrobe malfunction! Again, she looks womanly in every sense of the word and is the most attractive of the lot. Betty is way too ice-princess cool in my opinion; Rachel was too hard looking and needed an eyebrow waxing; and Bobbie is just cheap and trashy; Trudy, Pete's wife is pleasant in appearance. The only other one who is super attractive is Don's new secretary! Joan was a knock-out last season but as I said, if she gets any bigger she's going to be mistaken for the Xerox machine!
Everybody needs to get off Joan's ass (figuratively and literally)! So the lady is shapely and she seems to be a little more so than last season...so what? Maybe it's part of the storyline (like Peggy's weight gain last season) and maybe it's not. She's gorgeous and sassy and fabulous no matter what her size is. I don't want to sound like a priss but it's a sensitive issue for a woman and it's hardly the most interesting aspect of the show.
What I'm wondering about is the teaser at the end of episode 5....
Will Betty cheat with Stableboy?
Who is Pete talking to when he says, "Turn around...let me look at you," in a sexy voice?
When will a 1960s era mobster come and kill that skank-zilla Bobbie?!
Hanna: AS I stated in my post, Joan is shapely and attractive but she is getting a bit too shapely. She is the BEST looking of the bunch, but I think maybe you are being a little too sensitive here. No offense. I agree that a big bust line and all the rest can be a sensitive thing (if you have one), and as I stated, I enjoy seeing Joan for the woman she is, but there is also such a thing as going from voluptuous to over the top! She has expanded via nature or wardrobe and I think in either case, it should stop at the point it's at. No one is on her ass, as you put it. Just an opinion. Believe me, it IS an interesting aspect of the show if you watch the fashion and all the rest! I thought Peggy's weight gain of last season looked downright odd (not like the pregnant woman she was supposed to be). I would rather see a hundred of Joan than one Peggy! Peggy is dull, drab, and that ponytail HAS to go! Also, didn't know anyone else had commented on Joan's figure, so a thousand pardons!
Figaro: Thanks for your comments. I'm just a little sick of seeing SO MANY comments about Joan's bum (read through some of the other posts and you'll see). I know that many people are fascinated by it, being that there aren't many curvy women in tv shows today - she must seem like an alien or an exotic animal at the zoo! However it's not necessary to objectify her and make crass remarks(a Xerox - really?) No real offense taken. It's just my opinion. :)
I predict Bobbie is going to mentor Peggy, bigtime. She'll take her to a top New York hairstylist (maybe "Kenneth?") and pick out some new duds for her. We're going to see a BIG makeover in Peggy's appearance quite soon, mark my words.
Joan's weight gain is not accidental; it's integral to the plot.
JimK: I'm more than willing to exchange email address and/or phone numbers with other MM fanatics who'd like to meet "live." Let me know.
Gotham Goddess: Hidey! Was hoping to put together a get-together, a MadMen convention of sorts that would really be more like a bar night, somewhere in NYC. GailKlein lives in NY, and JimK works in the city too. I was hoping you New Yorkers could scope out a place to have a get together. What do you think?
Oh for Pete's sake, everyone can lambaste these male characters (Don is a so and so, Roger is nothing but a skirt chasing alcoholic, the guy who is married to Francine is a fat ugly something or other, and the guy who Rachel married is a even worse; yes, I have read them all here) but the moment I make mention of Joan getting hippy (and my thinking she's a knock-out STILL doesn't appease those with their hearts on their sleeves), some here are up in arms. I have apparently "objectified" her. Male characters apparently can be objectified here but females characters cannot. OK, fine. I think Episode Five has now been discussed at such length there is nothing left to say. It seems there is ALWAYS someone here who becomes offended about something someone has posted. It's a television show. Period. THese are not real people only characters in a piece of art and as such, it's all subjective. With that said, I am off now to attend to my life which takes precedence over Mad Men. As much as I enjoy the show it has come to a point where I notice that we have more than a few super sensitive souls who take umbrage with nearly EVERYTHING that's posted. Have fun children.
LaurieB; By the way, I noticed that you asked about Joan and if we think she is getting a tad big. I posted this very thing and someone was up in arms that I OBJECTIFIED her! See my post above about the objectification thing. Yes, Laurie, I DO think if she gets any bigger, there will indeed be a wardrobe malfunction. Someone here takes GREAT umbrage with my saying so. As I stated in my previous posting, you gals can call Don, Pete, Roger and all the rest a bunch of so and so's (and Francine's husband was called fat and ugly; ditto for negative words about Rachel's husband) but oh my oh my, let someone call one of the gals something, and there is hell to pay. As I stated, I think Joan is a knock out so I guess if she gets up to 300 pounds, I cannot mention her "slight" weight gain, lest I am accused of "objectifying" her by another poster. Again, I notice the um, ladies, have done their own objectifying regarding Don, Roger, and the rest. Like I said, time for me to get back to planet earth and my real life. By all!
Come back Figaro - don't go! We spent all last season talking about how fat Peggy was getting and nobody took offense. There are probably just a few people out there who have a mad crush on Joan and chivalry being what it used to be, are rushing in to protect her honor. Or something like that. Heck, if we can't criticize anything, what's the point of posting.
Objectify all you want - heck, we're talking about the '60s here.
@Figaro: I posted in another thread that Joan's caboose does look larger than last year. I'm beginning to think it's intentional.
Joan's clothes don't look as pretty or flattering as last year which may be their way of signalling her getting "older" and not as "fashionable" as she was. However they're doing it, it's for a reason, but I don't think Christina Hendricks has actually changed in weight. They're doing something to the costumes - I'd swear. And, yep, I still like her figure. Poor Joan, she's not going to be the right figure for the '60s British fasion explosion of minis, maxis, paisleys, etc.
Don's new secretary has the right figure for what's to come. Can you imagine how Joan's going to react if that girl shows up in a mini or patterned stockings?
Figaro...I think the problem is that you said you've not been on the board for a while, having just arrived, not read through the previous posts, and the first thing you choose to talk about is the size of Joan's rear. Not just on this thread, but you've made quite a trail of such topics...all having to do with the appearance of a woman's body. I think that is why you've felt singled out. Joan is multi-faceted and she can be the focus of a wide range of topics.
I know the stress of our real lives influences how everyone conveys their opinions. This board seems to gather posters whom are either informative, humorous or combative. Which one are you today? It's okay to regroup and return to discuss a wide range of topics....we'll be here!
Can you imagine Sterling Coo involved in either the Obama-Biden ticket or the McCain-PALIN ticket? A black and a woman running for the top US office. Amazing - 1962 would never have thunk it.
LaurieB: heck, I'll stick around but goodness, here is greystone in a snit! I have NOT left a trail of talk about Joan's rear end. What the double hockey sticks is the matter with some of you sensitive types? I think you READ into things (posts) WAY, WAY too much. Joan is big. Period. It's a fact. She's also gorgeous. Period. Just like it's a fact that Barack Obama is Black and had rather large ears. That comment is NOT racist, it's merely a fact, so all of you who want to fight, please pipe down already! This board is for expressing of opinions and whatnot. As Laurie pointed out, if we cannot even mention anything, what is the point of posting?! I agree! Laurie is right, no one took offense last year when we all said Peggy was getting hefty. She was! We didn't say she was a bad person, we just said she was putting on a few. And for Pete's sake she is but a character in a show! If every time someone posts those who wear their hearts on their sleeves are going to become so argumentive and just lambaste the others for their opinions, I agree with laurieB, what's the point of posting?! I have read so many posts (my guess is they are by the women out there) that absolutely crucify Don Draper, Roger Sterling, Francine's husband, Rachel's husband, and the rest of the guys. I saw one not long ago about Harry and his chunkiness and some other guy being very unattractive. Again, though, the moment someone dares to mention Joan's rear end, the world comes to a crashing halt! Come on, lighten up, people. Joan is voluptuous, it's a fact! And if I want to "objectify" her (sounds like a Women's Lib term), I will do so, gladly. LaurieB: I wonder if some of these folks were not around in the sixties when things were so much different than today and they don't quite see the perspective we do. And again, it's a TELEVISION SHOW people. If the cast reads any of these postings, they must roar with laughter! Oh yes, one more thing. I don't know if anyone remembers Renee Taylor from the old Nanny series (Fran Drescher). She was quite large. It's a fact! But hilariously funny! A true talent. Fran was quite thin. It's a fact! I thought she looked anorexic. I didn't think she was all that humorous. My opinion! And opinions are like you know what, everyone has one. Like I said, people, everyone has an opinion and I will respect those who don't like my comments about Joan. On the flip side, THEY must understand that if it bothers them that much, they would be best NOT to read the comments. I don't mind someone with a differing opinion, but I will continue to post mine as I see fit.
Ah, one more thought. If the only comments we are supposed to post are for instance, "Yes, I like MM, it's a great show. Like everyone on it. Like all the other posters. Everyone is wonderful. I have nothing else to state. Keep up the good work," then really, what a BORING forum this would be! The posters last year seemed WAY more laid back than a majority of the group this year! And finally, Joan is a dish (big rear and all), and Peggy is so utterly boring and dreary I wish she were gone from the show. She speaks in clipped sentences, looks drab and that ponytail has GOT to go! If you disagree, fine but let's not debate it for another ninety-five postings. I like it more when people place NEW things up for discussion. If I think of something, I will oblige.
Figaro, I never thought your comments about Joan's figure were negative. The costumers are doing something to her clothes - either tighter or padding. I don't know if it's to suggest that Joan is getting older, unstylish/unfashionable or what.
When you compare Joan to the new girl, Joan now seems matronly rather than they oung, sexy, vibrant playgirl of 1960. Joan is now the "older" woman (all of 31 LOL) in the office, and her attitude reminds me of some of the grumpy older women I worked under. Just part of MM's sneaky subtlety in conveying the changes in a character (just like I think Don's hair looks flattened down compared to Season 1 because he's being crushed down by all these problems).
jamm54: Yes, I remember your comments regarding Joan. Sheesh, I think some of these folks forget that Joan is a CHARACTER not a real person. Well, she is a real person but you know what I mean. Padding or not, Joan looks great but is getting a tad large. (Watch the women with their swords a'flashin come after me on that one.) We all talked about Peggy's getting hefty last year and not a soul was offended.
You know, if someone looks good and has talent, I don't care what size they are, but I will be dog gone if I am going to refrain commenting on things because someone becomes offended. I made a comment on another board about Peggy's silly little ponytail (not really appropriate for an office in NYC), and you would have thought I had made a remark about the Pope or something! People were outraged. Over a ponytail. Whenever we post something, I think there may be some folks who take it personally, although I am not sure why. Hey, if you're overweight out there, or have a ponytail, or are well-endowed in other areas, no one said you were not a nice person. (Isn't it funny that a man can be well-endowed, people can comment, and no one goes crazy, but say a woman is well-endowed and has a great backside, and everyone goes off the deep end). Ah yes, the old double-standard at work. Well, again, have to get back to business at hand.
Jamm54: Oh yes, and thanks for not reading something into my postings that weren't there in the first place. One more quick thing. not directed at anyone in particular. I think when we all post, sometimes our actual points or references may be misconstrued. Postings are just that, and they lack the emotion or inflection in the voice than can change meanings. And postings are here for a while. I think people look at them over and over and get worked up. If you are merely speaking with someone, you have the conversation but cannot return to it, and you go back to whatever you were doing before, thinking nothing more about it. Voice is so much different than mere postings. OK, now back to business.
The Open Thread this week is happily attracting lots of intelligent commentary, but also seems to be a bit of a sticky wicket.
There are some mean, pushy people on here who are scaring the crap out of me, so I know they must be scaring the new people. Call me a wuss (but don't push me too far!), but I think I've started and cancelled at least five different commentaries this week.
To that, I think I'll keep my "fingers" mostly silent save one point.
There are a multitude of great sites out there blogging about Mad Men, and it's tempting to jump in. However, I think where Mad Men could use the most support is right here, so here I faithfully remain.
In that vein, I would love to see a certain standard exercising some taste, manners and self-control. If that were to happen ANYWHERE, it should be here. The veterans and heavy posters on the board have a responsibility to set the example. Many of us are old enough to both remember, and know the difference.
At the risk of being irritating, tiresome or, HORRORS, irrelevant (and there is always that!), I thought I might partially repost a comment from Episode 4.
dashel posited that Draper was feeling emasculated, and his "actions" in the lounge hallway were an attempt to get the upper hand with Bobbi...
My comment had to do with the filmmaking aspect..... (sorry it's long, but I don't see anyone else making mention of this)....
Draper does seem to be getting the emasculation treatment from women on all sides right now, and there was definitely a lot of anger there.
However, for that moment, at least in my mind, Donald Draper stepped off the pedestal. Gregory Peck, indeed. He lowered himself. We know Draper is a serial cheater, but we didn't know he was capable of being a pig.
Mad Men episodes loop in my office, so I see them several times, each time coming to new conclusions. While my feelings about the other startling things in Episode 4 (domestic violence, picking on Bobby, Sally getting drunk and passing out) have evolved into things other than shock, this point has not.
So I'm going to call it.
That scene would have been every bit as effective had they lost the one long shot where we see Draper’s arm under Bobbi’s evening frock, etc. The headshots of him "holding" her, of her reaction, would have been plenty cinematic, illustrative and, frankly, a lot more provocative.
True to the filmmaking style of the era, we needn’t have been hit over the head with the graphic details to get it, and we DON'T need to know that Draper sits down to dinner next to his wife with those hands, before visiting the gentlemen's room.
In that vein, it's been brought up several times whether this show could be more effective on HBO.
I am a HUGE fan of HBO and SHO series. I waited my entire life to see television that good, and was quite relieved that characters could finally express themselves realistically.
However, as fond as I am of profanity and its endless ability to daily entertain and help us express ourselves in unique ways, I might use as an example here the one guy who said Deadwood overdid it.
Deadwood was a beautiful, incredibly rich (if way too brief) masterpiece but, in retrospect, the profanity itself really did begin to overshadow the experience, and even threatened to become a cast member. Hard as I might try, and often do, even I could not fit that much profanity into my day.
Mad Men is unique. It is NOT a Sopranos, a Six Feet Under or a Weeds, and treating it as such would be a huge miscarriage. We are watching a series about the days when ladies and gentlemen (generally) behaved as such, and knew the difference.
Integrating more profanity or any other overt challenge to the censors wouldn't make Mad Men better - would NOT change the story.
What makes this show incredible is the incredible writing, in the fashion of the day. It takes us straight back to a VERY different era, utterly suspending our disbelief.
In Mad Men, it is the incredibly mesmerizing and haunting lines which play over and over in our minds, which words we will still be able to recall ten years from now.
Matt Weiner and his stellar crew tell this story JUST FINE - hell, BETTER THAN FINE, without all of that "hype-la."
Thanks for listening. At my own risk, I ask, what do YOU think?
[Excuse me while I both rapidly flee AND change my name!!]
@Figaro: Believe or not, I think Peggy is going to lose her ponytail in episode 6! There was some preview scene where Joan is saying something to Peggy about the ponytail (even Elisabeth Moss wanted to get rid of it this season but lost that battle with MW for the time being).
So, maybe this week Peggy stops being "Nancy Drew" and gets to be "Lois Lane - career woman" finally, and look it!
@Dry Manhattan: I think this series works fine on AMC, too. The standards that they have to adhere to for AMC fit the "era" that the series is taking place in. And if you look back on old movies, man, what they could imply or suggest through dialogue and what wasn't shown - I call that absolutely masterful writing. Watch any Billy Wilder/I.A.L. Diamond, Hitchcock or Kubrick script/movie (Apartment, Love in the Afternoon, Vertigo, North By Northwest, Lolita, etc) for implication/subtlety.
Jamm54: How about an episode entitled "Pete Running With Scissors"? He could chase Peggy around the office and finally lop off her pony tail! Or, Joan could do it after Peggy makes a crack about her expanding derriere! Yes, to those who are totally offended, I also posted this on another thread that I myself began. What can I say?!
DryManhattan: Did you mean that some are trying to regulate what's on the boards? Are those the people who are scaring you? If so, I agree. I mean, I was lambasted by more than a few posters when I dared mention Joan's derriere. Of course, those gals can mention how Don is a hottie and how Francine's husband is really ugly, but more than a couple of posters read me the riot act for "objectifying" poor Joan. I repeat to all: These are characters in a piece of art, NOT real life! Anyway, just wondered if that's what you meant.
First, really just that those who get prematurely testy, or take a huge piece, pick out the one sentence they don't like or think is funny, and beat it to death, doesn't seem very neighborly.
I am sure no one on here intentionally sets out to offend someone else. Let's face it, discrimination is the human condition. Someone is always discriminating on someone, whatever age, gender, color, class, weight, etc., etc.
Attracting good posters is the object, right? I've been on here, and some of the words flying around this week are a little harsh and intimidating. I ran away, so I'm sure others did too.
This is the AMC Mad Men public forum, they are graciously hosting a very nice literary playground, and we should try to act like guests.
Secondly, sorry, I am guilty. I really like your other posts, but I made a bad joke (seemed funny at the time) because I was miffed. I was passive-aggressively acting out I guess.
It's not serious, just a man/woman thing, and comes from being the one whose ass is being perused at the office, and discussed in great detail.
Somehow Joan gets ogled AND respected. In my experience, it was hard to keep their eyes, well, at eye level and I'm pretty sure they weren't listening to me talk.
My first reaction to your post was irritation and wondering why we are discussing Joan's ass at all.
In Season One, she started out thinner and got bigger. In Season Two, evidently she is putting on some weight. There is a reason for everything in this series, even if you don't see it now.
A plurality of women's weights rise and fall according to the changes in their life, age, health, emotional state etc. This is normal.
I would say the fact that you wrote a long post about Joan's ass means that you might be upset it's growing, but you aren't looking at anything else, are you!!
.....that was not to be hurtful, by the way.... I'm just not drawn to any "he's hot / she's hot" commentary. I mean, you can say it once, and that's enough said.
There is so much else going on, my list of questions and open-ended threads is growing.... I'd like to know about some of those things....
On the other hand, the beauty of these things is to be able to express ideas and opinions freely with other intelligent people. I don't see how anyone writing authentically can NOT offend SOMEONE, SOME TIME.
We are all going to stick our foot in it at some point, and being less quick to jump on that might be best. Like we forgive our friends for spazzing out occasionally, we should similarly forgive each other.
No matter where you post comments about the size of Joan's rear (whether you find it pleasing or not) and make no reference to how your comment is relevant to the storyline, you are objectifying her.
I'd rather know if you think she's pregnant...or is she depressed? ...Maybe you suspect other reasons for her increasing hips, but you've never said, and continue to repeat it as fact over and over and over....you have the right to say it. You do. You can repeat it over and over as if it is headline news. And, just like Roger in his office with his paddle...I was just telling you how it sounds....
.....re: peggy's ponytail, I think it's earned its retirement..... they're coming into a new more modern era - Beatles, MLK, JFK, RFK, (A-Okay,).... and Peggy likely will bump up her image a bit.....
I thought a honey blonde, mid-neck-length flip would be sweet..... with the side-swept bangs....
how much do you think Peggy's ponytail would fetch on eBay?
Fine greytone, but I think it's time to move on. You get the last word on Joan's rear end. And now, for something completely different....
DryManhattan: They should indeed donate Peggy's ponytail to charity, or at least, as you suggested, auction it on eBay! And let us not forget her clothing! I am sure the actress who plays her is far more attractive in real life than the Peggy character.
However, my guess is that if we saw some of these folks on the street, we might not even recognize them when taken out of the context of their characters. Well, who knows. Night all.
...... Watch the half-hour Mad Men documentary which alternately showcases soundbites from three men (Slattery, Hamm and Kartheiser), and three women (Moss, Hendricks and Jones).
Everyone is on good behavior, but the "code" there for the ladies, both in character and on set, is demure and tight-lipped.
However, it is clear that Christina Hendricks has a lot to say....
makes me wonder a little, are there any actors or crew from this show on this board, at all? any guesses?
what i'm getting at is that joan exists because of christina hendricks and her deft talent for pulling off Joan Holloway.
Joan could have been whorish, campy, malignant or repulsive.
she is NOT!
she is bodacious, exquisite, bold and smart, with a touch of soul in there somewhere....somewhere.
i love joan. she has the balls to say what she thinks and get away with it.
DryManhattan: Con el tiempo. Adios, Amigo! (My Spanish is a tad rusty, as you can probably tell.)
OK, now I am really truly honestly signing off for the night!
Cooper keeps mentioning Ayn Rand.
I'd like to see an objectivist meeting on the show.
Draper can go as Cooper's guest.
They can all be checking their premises.
(I'm trying to start this as a new conversation but I don't know where to post it.)
O yasumi nasai, as Cooper would say at this juncture.
joan gets ogled and respected because she is sexy and gorgeous and takes responsibility for her actions keeps her real feelings/opinions to herself and will not be seen crying in the ladies' room
Clayton, people on the East Coast are going to post spoilers!!
O.K. so I posted an open thread also and now can't find it, so if you all find it and I'm repeating myself , Im sorry. Random comments, Joan's engaged. Rachel Katz! Loved her comments about "working with Don". Surprising Peggy comes to the rescue.Loved that Don ordered steak tar tar for Bobbie the lioness. Peggy's flash back in the hospital. Like I said random thoughts no insight at this point, will come later. They did mention Monroe. Some one predicted this a few weeks ago. For all you doubters about Laying the ground work , it's paying off! This is as far as I am in the show .
1) rachel is back and with a new man! I am so happy that I was right about her return (visan and I are all smiles)
2) what about Pegs coming to the rescue for don
3) anita was pregnant that year- where is that child?
4) the conversations between pegs and bobbie was very interesting. A big one for me was how bobbie inquired on the relationship between pegs and don (insight please)
5) how about trudy and pete (poor trudy)
6) don knows peggy's secret- no wonder he called her
1) rachel is back and with a new man! I am so happy that I was right about her return (visan and I are all smiles)
2) what about Pegs coming to the rescue for don
3) anita was pregnant that year- where is that child?
4) the conversations between pegs and bobbie was very interesting. A big one for me was how bobbie inquired on the relationship between pegs and don (insight please)
5) how about trudy and pete (poor trudy)
6) don knows peggy's secret- no wonder he called her
Very implausable that Don would call Peggy to bail him out. Why not call Roger? There's been nothing established so far to make us think that Peggy is in anyway his confidant.
ldraper-That thread is the next after this one. Too many martinis? : )
Frighgigh-Did you see the flashback of Don at Peggy's bedside? I believe that was to show that their relationship became more than just boss and underling. Sure more will unfold.
Maybe Don called Peggy because he knew Peggy could forget all about it after it was over. And completely forget it. Roger probably would bring it again. After Don visited Peggy in the hospital I think that made them confidences, in some way. So the big question is, is the little boy we saw earlier in the season Peggy's, or her sisters? If it was in fact Peggy's were is Anita's child?
The little blond boy is obviously Peggy's sister's baby since she was pregnant in the flashback scene. Where is Peggy's baby? Given up for adoption? We've been duped!
I like the introduction of health problems, especially high blood pressure since this is more realistic. Additionally, I really like the ending to this episode. Don's life is slowly deconstructing. The episodes show a cascade of a dissolution of the 1950s mentality and an emergence of the late 60s mentality (i.e., women's lib, hippie and anti-materialsim culture, etc). I am hoping that this film mentions some of the key turning points when this happens, such as the kennedy assisination, mario savio's speech at berkely, and the formation of SDS. I am expecting that Roger Sterling's daughter will touch upon some of these themes since in the last episode she expressed wanting to reject mainstream values (a traditional wedding) and wanting to adopt a more liberal lifestyle. Also, I hope they show Bob Dylan singing folk in the coffee shops in the village. Wow, I really love the work that the people do on this show. It is truly great to see a depiction of the good, the bad, and the ugly side of this era.
Now get the new girl comment. Joan's comment, There's still plenty to see" Love the zipper playing Mozart, even though I couldn't hear it.This one is the best yet. Bobbies comment to Peggy ,"You're never going to get that corner office untill you start treating Don as your equal. And no one will tell you this but can't be a man ,don't even try , Powerful bussinss when done correctly.
In Three Sundays, Anita told Peggy that "The State of New York didn't think so." Perhaps Peggy's child was given up for adoption because she had had a mental breakdown. And here we thought Anita was a saint for looking after her sister's child!
How do we know Anita was pregnant? I don't remember that info.
The boy is likely her sister's and Peggy's child is likely a ward of the state as in Episode 2 the State of New York determined Peggy wasn't mentally fit to keep the child.
Anita was pregnant in the flashback?!
So the baby isn't Peggy's?
This is going to be the unravelling of Dick/Don all over again ( in that it's going to be SLOW)
I knew it was going to be Peggy he called, but I never imagined Don knew about her.
The Bobbie/Peggy conversations were very interesting. I wonder how this will affect Peggy's relationship with Don.
Judging from the flashback, Don knows at least part of Peggy's secret and he promoted her. She's in his debt.
While Roger would understand, he is Don's boss and it would give him power over Don. Also, I wouldn't quite trust Roger to keep a secret, if only because of his drinking.
Judging from the flashback, Don knows at least part of Peggy's secret and he promoted her. She's in his debt.
While Roger would understand, he is Don's boss and it would give him power over Don. Also, I wouldn't quite trust Roger to keep a secret, if only because of his drinking.
I also just saw in Peggy's flashback that Anita was pregnant. So I'll chim in with everyone else: where is her baby? I thought she was raising Peggy's as her own?
How awesome was it when Peggy called Don by his first name? Good for her! Now if she could just get a new hairstyle. ;)
I love Don...but he disappoints me in every episode with his complete inability to NOT have sex with nearly every woman. And cut back on that smoking! Man! Do/did people reallllllllllly smoke that much?
Question: either on the recap of what has already happened in Season 2, or maybe it was in the clips of what is to come, but somewhere I saw Pete telling Cooper that Don is really Dick. Did this happen already, and when? I've seen every episode in Season 2 and have not seen that.
This is currently my favorite show and I cannot understand why some of my friends and family are not crazy about it!
MMforever-You're right-Don called her because he had something on her so she couldn't use his situation against him. He's a sly one.
I didn't even see Anita-need to watch again!
I've had enough of Bobbie-anyone else?
Betty is so controlling now she won't even let him have salt. How long before he blows up?
Also, i think the advertising for this show is very clever...obviously it must be older men who must be watching based on the commercials...BMW, Viagra, Jack Daniels, etc. IT's kind of funny since i'm an early 20s chick.
Vgrace-it already happened. Cooper didn't care.
I got it, Anita had a pillow in her stomach, so she could pull off it was her baby? Hmm, what an interesting episode, saw that accident coming, and Peggy and Don with the secrets...intriguing. Thought maybe Bobbie would send Peggy something for her hospitality. Hate that Joan is engaged, she still is HOT for Roger, its all a cover up. The new girl will bring some heavy competition for Joan. Once again, love, love, love this show!
This episode more than made up for last weeks! AMC announced at the break that next week they will be having the five episodes from season 2 in a marathon format. Is there a break in the filming again?
How could Anita know to hide a pillow in her stomach to pull off the baby, if Peggy didn't even know she was pregnant? Peggy wasn't in the hospital for that long. I don't think Anita could pull off a super fast pregnancy.
Vgrace,
Yes Pete opened a personal package of Don's from his late brother and found out he was someone else. He threatened to go to boss with info so he could get a promotion (Duck's job). But, it backfired in the end.
Vgrace, yes I loved it when Peggy called Don by his first name, she is starting already to take Bobbies advice. ALso, I think with Pete telling Cooper was a flashback to season 1, that defiantely didn't happen this year.
I am with you on the friends and family not tuning in? I am saying fine then, don't watch my show.HA!
Yeah...I'm more than done with Bobbie. She is overused....in many ways.
Ahhhh....good thinking gage....maybe Anita did stuff her stomach so it would seem that the baby was hers.....
Guess I'll be watching the Marathon next week for all the parts and nuances I seem to have missed! I've also been renting the First Season to recap and catch any episodes or pieces I missed! (And to drool over the clothing and accessories!)
vgrace.
the scene you are wondering about was from the last episode of season one. one of the many climactic moments of the first season. pete tried to frame don by revealing to cooper that don wasn't who he claimed to be. cooper's response was "who cares?"
so what's with the ESP with the new Girl? Any ideas on what she will predict? and who says beemers are only for the boys,???? God I LOVE THIS SHOW.
That Don Draper is such a manly man. Steak tar tar.
I'm thinking that Anita and Peggys mom knew she had the kid, and quick play off Anita is pg and then take the baby home. Silly, but its kinda a thought?!
60's child,
You mean there's not going to be episode 6 next week???
For the poster who stated the liked the fly zipper rendition of Mozart, I did not. It seems a very sophmoric thing to do - VERY sophmoric, and frankly, what was the point? That's a rhetorical question. I mean, we've all seen these types of antics but come on, that was inane and thrown in for some sort of gratuitous shock value, at least in my opinion. Also, I don't think Don would EVER want Peggy to have on him what she now does, regardless of the fact he may know about her baby. No man in his right mind (one in Don's position anyway) would want a woman employee with THAT kind of power! Don has WAY more to lose than Peggy should Peggy ever spill the beans. They are not equals in business or in life, and Don is not THAT stupid! I think it would have been more logical that he would have called Roger Sterling. However, this episode is the best so far. However, strange AMC is ALREADY running a MM Marathon with only five episodes shown; I wonder if the ratings might be down a little and they are trying to bring those who tuned into the Olympics up to snuff? Or again, perhaps ratings are not where they need to be.
Okay, I didn't see all of Season 1 but Peggy didn't even know that she was pregnant????? I know that happens....but come on....she is no dummy. And I guess if her family also didn't know then how could Anita stuff her shirt....hmmmm
Oh and how about the new secretary for Don? Looks like she is Joan's competition for male attention! And just after Joan says that a professional atmosphere needs to be maintained that weird man comes out and plays Mozart on his pant zipper. haha!
What's so incredible about this time era is how dramatic the changes truly are, in such a short time frame. So I think and rea01 has hit the nail on the head. Think about what happens from the early 60's to the late 60's. So much of it has informed the world in which we currently live. And it's entirely possible we're going through a similar wave right now. I think the characters to watch are Peggy and Pete. They'll be dealing with issues of single parenthood, equality in the workplace, and of understanding popular values. For a man to say "Look at all the things having a baby means?" foreshadows the whole "me" obsession of the 60's. For a woman to say "I wasn't invited to that meeting" talks to the issues of women being taken seriously in the work force. Don is the old guard, trying to figure out what is wrong with his system of doing things...it'll be interesting to see how his story plays out. When he initially made the call to Peggy to bail him out, I knew he was aware of her baby.
Fantastic series! This was a great episode!
The marathon starts at 5 so there could still be a new episode at 10. It is a holiday weekend, though, so maybe not. They did show previews-did they say next week or not?
When does Betty get a turn to "play"??
Thought it was funny how Don didn't even think of the $ he put Peggy out for. Geez, how bout Rachael?! Would have never guessed she was married. Who the heck did Don send that poem off too....hmmm Midge? Don't think that Pete and Trudy will last. I am also sick of that Bobby already!
In the confession, Anita said she had to take care of the baby!? What is all this talk about the whereabouts of Peggy's baby?? I haven't seen the episode so excuse me if I don't quite understand what's being said.
Once again I plead ignorance, Midcenturymod, I can't find my original post onmy computer. And by the way I've never had a martini. Love ya , though.
I don't understand the pillow theory. in that flashback scene the baby was already born and something was already done with it. probably given up for adoption. what would stuffing a pillow in Anitas dress accomplish?
Don called on Peggy because he "has something" on her and he already knows she's devoted to him. Now she has something on him. She also knows he will tend to punish her for this secret knowledge - keep her in her place, start treating her like a secretary rather than a writer - let's see what happens - will she seek out Bobbi for advice?
Peggy was in total denial about being pregnant and she just looked fat so don't think Anita knew. Where in the show was Anita tonight?
Didn't they show Peggy's baby girl on the Three Sundays episode?
Vgrace,
Peggy was in denial and still is about the baby. Also, innocently, she took the pill and she probably thought she was ok right away.
ldraper-I don't drink them either but there's so many cocktails on this show, it's getting harder to resist! You did say you were tired-just joshin' with ya.
When they flashbacked to Peggy in the hospital Anita and her mother were standing there and Anita was obviously pregnant.
So, I guess we have to hope for another flashback to figure out exactly where is Peggy's baby and Anita's baby.
I assumed the baby (boy?) at Peggy's mother's house was Peggy's by the way Peggy kind of was awkward with it and ignored it (him?), and Anita (or her mom) asked her if she was going to see the baby or say good bye to the baby. But, then again, it could have been Anita's and Peggy was just awkward because she had a baby, and here is a baby....
Finally got my glimpse of Rachel! But it was too brief!
Damn! Don's still got the woman in his system! Good!
The less of Self-Absorbed Bitch per episode, the better! She needs to STFD!
I'm a newby to the series and I love it!!! I am having so much fun watching it with my husband, it really gives me something to look forward to, and love getting to spend some time with my husband!!!
Hide a pillow in her stomach? Oh, for heaven's sake, people, watch the show! Don't leave the room. You're missing important parts! Anita has other children, and I think the writers have led us to believe the little blond boy is Peggy's. (the first time we saw him, she was reluctantly saying goodnight at Anita's house) This show continues to surprise us all, and this episode is very revealing.
And if your friends and family don't get it just remember this. The people I know who are Mad Men fans are also incredibly intelligent and insightful. Enjoy!
gage-Rachael turning up married was a surprise, indeed. I don't think Don knew she was married so he may have sent that book to her. Think she had to get married? Remember how she suddenly took off on a cruise last season? Her husband doesn't seem like her type(if Don is her type).
I am not digging these new blogs, to many of them. Too many topics going on. I liked last years better, easier to find everyone!
Okay, it was dumb of me to say about the pillow, but I have never seen TWO babies in the new season, so thats what I came up with, a fokin' pillow in Anitas stomach!
I believe that Peggys baby is a boy with that blond hair!
The Peggy storyline is going to be interesting. I wonder if Trudy will ever find out that her husband did father a child, and I wonder if he'll ever know too.
Loved the period details, the Alka Seltzer, the song A Summer Place on the car radio and the ketchup covered meatloaf.
Who does the set decorations? Pete and Trudy's apartment is really cool.
Gage: What happens, I think, is everyone is so intent on getting in their two cents, the same things are repeated over and over and debated to the nth degree! That gets boring. I think some folks overanalyze every nuance and that becomes tedious. It's just a show. Most don't read other's postings, they just post their thoughts, which is fine, but after a while it becomes monotonous. The series was bright tonight, I must admit. I wonder about the ratings, though. Someplace I read they were losing viewers. Now watch someone state we are early in the season, which is really not true as there are only 7 or 8 episodes left of Season Two, not many really. Again, the show is good (to a point) but it it went off the air I will not be surprised.
It was funny when Pete picked up the magazine for inspiration to collect his sample and then the scene cut to Roger playing with the paddle.
First time poster so apologies in advance if I ask a repeat question. I did search the past topics but found no answer.
I love the opening for this show but I keep hearing about it being symbolic of Don (corner office, falling, can't really see him - mystery man) but it was my impression that the beginning is actually Pete. I thought it came from the episode when Pete is gunning for Don's job and the corner office. The falling man looks like Roger to me and only the last silhouette of the seated man with the cigarette appears to be Don. Has this been answered? Is it all Don or three men?
Tonight's impressions: FINALLY a justification for Bobbie being there - I saw it as a way to open the door into what happened between seasons with Peggy. Also lets us see a little more of what makes Don tick. Not sure about Anita's belly - either we have lost a baby somewhere (either hers or Peggy's) or she was stuffing for the cover story. They mention Peggy being gone for 3 months so that would be ample time for Anita to pretend.
Love all the comments! This show has great fans!
I still thing Peggy is sweet, yet somewhat naive. I mean she did get down & dirty with Pete in his office, but she seemed so vunerable when she "twisted up" to him at the party and he shooed her away.
She's still dependable Peggy according to Mr. Draper. I don 't think he knows anything about the baby. In the flashback at the hospital, he tells her to forget about whatever happended and get on with her life. The fact that he called her after the car accident says that he trusts her. He's definetly not attracted to her. He see's her as one of the boys. Except she's more mature and dependable.
"Don has WAY more to lose than Peggy should Peggy ever spill the beans. "
I beg to differ Figaro, peggy would have more to lose. We have to remember that this is the 60's and the double standards that to some extent still exist today. As a male, it would be expected for Don to have extramarital affairs, and knowing what we know about Betty, what are the chances she would divorce him and take the kids away? Now Peggy have a baby out of wedlock, and with a married man at that. She would be at more risk of losing her reputation and job rather than Don who is very high up in the company. In addition Pete already went took the blackmail route and Cooper didnt seem to care. We have seen how Don reacts when people try to manipulate/blackmail him so either way you look at it , Don is a pretty difficult man to screw over.
This episode was very insightful. I think that it is quite interesting and surprising that Don know about Peggys pregnancy. I was under the impression that it was Joan who knew everything about everyone, but it turns out Don sees more than we are lead to believe. If he was able to find out that Peggy is pregnant, then there is a good that he was able to know who the father is. If that is the case, that is ammunition he would be able to use against Peter, in case he tries to blackmail him again.
It is also interesting to get a closer look at Bobbie. Did anyone catch the comment in reference to her bruise where she says she was a dancer and met alot 'interesting' people? Was Bobbie a former prostitute? The fact that she is from the bottom would explain why she is a bit rough around the edges and is able to fight dirty. It would also explain her attitude towards Don.
Whatever the case is, she also seems to have feelings for Don, she couldn't stop talking about him or questioning Peggy about their relationship. I have a feeling this could mean bad news for Don in the future. Bobbie is certainly not as modest a Rachael, and doesn't seem to take rejection well.
I think Don would do anything to keep his flings a secret. Betty doesn't play when it comes to cheating. I don't know it she would leave Don, but she would never let him forget it.
Miala: Thanks, but I am sticking by my original opinion. When someone is married with children they ALWAYS have more to lose than some little office worker (ala Peggy). Always. Don makes more, has more, and as a man, will get further. And you know, at this point I will repeat something I stated earlier: It's just a show. We don't really HAVE to "remember" anything, i.e., that it's the sixties or whatever. It's entertainment and as such, we all take away something different, I suppose. I know it's the sixties, I was there too.
So were millions of other Boomers (and those who are NOT Boomers). Again, art is subjective. This is art. We could debate it forever, but then we wouldn't be tending to what we need to in REAL life if we did that! Thanks for your feedback. Time for me to get to bed.
Don is nothing without Betty.
I was shocked when Peggy came to rescue Don, then shocked again when Don came to visit her in the hospital. That makes sense - I wondered how her family explained her absence for that length of time. TB was not common in the early 60s, but it was still around.
I think seeing Peggy's sister pregnant when she and the mother visited Peggy in the hospital supports my idea that the little blonde boy is not Peggy's baby - it's the sister's. We still don't know what happened to Peggy's boy, but he probably was adopted out. I think at the end of this season 2, Pete will know he fathered a child and the hunt will be on to find the little boy so Pete and Trudy can have him.
Don's face when Peggy called him Don was absolutely priceless.
OMG, this show just gets more and more intriguing.
I certainly want Rachel to be back and often.
TO WHOMEVER TAKES CARE OF THIS SITE: The way the threads are set up is confusing - it needs to be done like Law & Order's.
Figaro, I agree , we dissect this show too much. That's why I just throw out thoughts and hope they land somewhere. I get really tired of people taking the most minute facts and expounding at length. But that is what this forum is for. I get insights I wouldn't otherwise have. That's kind of the fun. No?
MMforever on August 24, 2008 11:01 PM
4) the conversations between pegs and bobbie was very interesting. A big one for me was how bobbie inquired on the relationship between pegs and don (insight please)
I think Bobbi doesn't understand a nonsexual relationship with a man. She's used sex to get power and influence and doesn't understand someone like Peggy who is actually interested in working her way up. Yes, Peggy make mistakes her first year at SC, i.e, the Pete thing, but she learned from that and she is intent on building a life. She is also intent on getting respect from her colleagues - which I think she has.
She may also have been asking about Peggy and Don in order to see if Don was the kind of man would use young girls in the office for his pleasure. She did make a comment about him being a decent man, something not expected. I guess she's trying to figure out why Don would call a young woman at the office instead of one of the guys to help him out of a tight spot.
idraper: Have to get to bed. Really do. OK, one more remark from me. Yes, it's fun to a point but it does get boring (as you stated) when people just argue for the sake of argument. Did you see those postings last week about the blue Easter egg?
There were tons of them and they debated the concept of this blue egg for days and days. Also, I get weary of the threads that are nothing more than people's personal recollections of the sixties, the sayings (adages), the moors, what their mothers and fathers drank and how they were punished, whether or not they had an Easter Egg roll at their church, etc., etc.,etc. It seems everyone assumes that if THEY did things a certain way in the sixties, EVERYONE did them that way. Not so, as I am sure you will agree. Anyway, what is the old sage abut "If you remember the sixties (or any decade) you really weren't there!" Night all!
Ok So I love this show and the only other person I know that watches it is my mother. I am so glad I found this blog. I am curious I am 27 and I did not live in that time. Are there any fans my age? Anyway, In regards to Peggy's baby, I think it was in the first or second episode when she went to her sisters and before she left her sis ter said " are you going to say goodnight ( something like that) She walked to the doorrway where the baby was sleeping and she just looked. SO I think the baby is peggy's and I think her sisters baby died and she resents Peggy beasue she haas the job, the baby and her mothers attention. What do you guys think?
I agree with you all about Bobbie. Such a nuisance. Like a buzzing mosquito.
Rachel's back. Never liked her in the first place.
Yes, of course Trudy and Pete will find out about his baby. Somehow.
I don't believe unbottoning one's blouse 1-2 buttons was accurate for that decade.
Joan is spreading out too much.
Oh please! No late '60s socio-cultural stuff. I could barely stand it in RL.
Natasha: I keep promising to get to bed and I am doing so after answering your question. Before I do here's something for LoveMM. You don't believe unbuttoning one's blouse was accurate for the sixties?! Come on, where have YOU been? People flirted in the sixties, believe me. They were obvious just as they are today. This is an AD AGENCY NOT a nunnery! The new girl wants attention. Some women DID enjoy it, and believe me, more than you may think! Just because women were downtrodden in the sixties didn't mean they didn't enjoy flirting. So now, Natasha: Peggy had her baby. Peggy's sister adopted it or it was given to her. The sister has two children of her own. She resents Peggy because she is stuck at home with THREE kids, and her mother seems to favor Peggy no matter what she does. I would be somewhat resentful too! Peggy's sister is the typical housewife of that era, unfulfilled and yearning for more. OK, that's it. TO bed! No more idle threats.
Please tell us who the actor is who is playing Dr.Stone in Episode 5.....I recognize him from another series but he looks much older now.
We like this show...It is very different and inventive. Odd characters to say the least.
A strange thought went through my mind about Peggy. We all just assume that Pete is the father of her child but maybe Don is. After all he did give her a raise and new office before the child was born. I am not sure why everyone thinks that Anita is not caring for Peggy's baby. I thought it was pretty transparent in one of the earlier episodes that the baby belonged to Peggy and Anita was upset that she did not acknowledge him at all. There were many children asleep in that room. It is possible that Anita had her own baby at about the same time Peggy had hers and she is caring for both. I think Betty and Don are lousy parents. Betty wants Don to beat up on the little boy for getting into perfectly normal scrapes that all children get into and are no big deal. Don takes his little girl to the office and totally ignores her to the point that she gets intoxicated without him noticing. Swell parents!
Don is everything without the albatross that is SAB!
Just a hint of a time line here
peggy's baby born after nixon lost election to jfk nov. 1960
this 5th epeisode takes place around may19 1962
mm sings hbday to jfk
I love don's creativity I love his charachter. He is a good person. betty is shallow and does not love her son. why? perhaps he is not don's?
this show has mystery after mystery
This show is many things.
Not just a clue to the clueless young women of today that have no idea that the feminist movement
did do some good for us. they changed us, and how we brought up our sons and daughters.
its an insight to marriage, family,
stress, lies, manipulation, health and pure
art television at its best.
Ok, it's my turn and I'm going to watch the show!!!!!!!!!!!See you after!!!!
I find it hard to believe that Peggy's baby is out there with some other family. It doesn't leave the door open for future tension about its existence and Pete being the father if the child is totally out of the picture.
I'm hoping this is a start to a new Peggy who becomes a little more "womanly" and less dowdy and about how she navigates the workplace. Ugh, it must have been so frustrating at that time. My old boss started working in advertising in the 70's and even then men and women started in different positions (women in a more clerical-type role.) She fought it and was the first woman to start in the "man's" position. Yeah!
Mimi, I just want you to know that this young woman has never forgotten what people who fought in the Women's Movement and CIvil Rights Movement did for her! As much as I like Mad Men, I didn't need the show as some "reminder" of that!
There are a lot of young women creating blogs and such who are quite aware of the struggles of back in the day! Please don't generalize!
Figaro, thank you for the reply, even though I am fully aware of that this is a tv show, and that art is subjective. My post was not meant to inform or even persuade you, only to express my difference in opinion. Take it or leave it, goodnight.
Don's comment to Bobbi about not feeling anything, reinforces why he's able to betray his wife and family without any remorse. We see this again and again, he has little guilt or remorse-and it's another reason he can push his wife around, because he doesn't see her as his victim anymore.
I enjoyed Joans comments to her former lover, Sterling, about his unhappy marriage. I think she hit a nerve.
Don and Bobbi are both self-created personas. Very interesting to see this shared similarity in both characters.
Peggy's mental health was obviously an issue, but how could it be so traumatic when she didn't even know she was pregnant? Her mother seemed to know of the baby.
visan
a lot of young women in power do not have a clue. t
They are even resentful to the womans movement ,they see it as a failure . after all we still do not have equal pay, oprah did a fabulous show on it years ago.i am glad you are knowledgeable and your right, generalizations are never accurate.but why is not your generation carrying the ball . get us equal pay
I like Don's new Secretary!...she's a hottie!!!! Joan is somehow 'lacking' next to her charms in my opinion.
Racheal's back (for a second) YAAAAAA!
Bobbie still diddling Don (almost) BOOOOOO!
Pete's 'swimmers' are powerful - YAAAAAAA!
Peggy was born a women - Boooooo! (LOL).
Sterling and Joan are talking- Yaaaaaa!
Joan got engaged - Booooo!
Pete stood up to his wife! - Yaaaaaaa!
Don's wife toke away Don's salt at dinner- Boooo!
Kosgrove chatted up the 'New Girl'- Yaaaaaaa!
Someone played Mozart on their Zipper- Booooo!
So yeah....it was an "OK" episode....more chicks!...Less Bobbie! I soo wanted to see Paul ask the new girl about "liking Ukrainian Food"- it's a gag on the DVD commentaries.
One reason some of you re having a hard time figuring out what things mean on the show is because people were more private in the 50's and 60's and didn't put their business in the street like it is done now. A' baby out of wedlock was a BIG thing. People got married then, I was there in the 50's and 60's and this program is right on. I think the writers throw a scene and and then unfold it over the next season. This is the BEST tv show I have ever seen and most interesting. After the first episode of Season 2 I was lucky enough to find all of Season 1 on Comcast On Demand. It all falls in places. The writing is fantastic. We will be seeing the story of Peggy's baby if it is alive before the end of this season and I would venture that Pete will know about it too. The affairs were right on also, as sex was there in the workplace and everywhere else, but more discrete and quiet than it is now. It was a lot more fun then when Men made the moves!
One reason some of you re having a hard time figuring out what things mean on the show is because people were more private in the 50's and 60's and didn't put their business in the street like it is done now. A' baby out of wedlock was a BIG thing. People got married then, I was there in the 50's and 60's and this program is right on. I think the writers throw a scene and and then unfold it over the next season. This is the BEST tv show I have ever seen and most interesting. After the first episode of Season 2 I was lucky enough to find all of Season 1 on Comcast On Demand. It all falls in places. The writing is fantastic. We will be seeing the story of Peggy's baby if it is alive before the end of this season and I would venture that Pete will know about it too. The affairs were right on also, as sex was there in the workplace and everywhere else, but more discrete and quiet than it is now. It was a lot more fun then when Men made the moves!
One reason some of you re having a hard time figuring out what things mean on the show is because people were more private in the 50's and 60's and didn't put their business in the street like it is done now. A' baby out of wedlock was a BIG thing. People got married then, I was there in the 50's and 60's and this program is right on. I think the writers throw a scene and and then unfold it over the next season. This is the BEST tv show I have ever seen and most interesting. After the first episode of Season 2 I was lucky enough to find all of Season 1 on Comcast On Demand. It all falls in places. The writing is fantastic. We will be seeing the story of Peggy's baby if it is alive before the end of this season and I would venture that Pete will know about it too. The affairs were right on also, as sex was there in the workplace and everywhere else, but more discrete and quiet than it is now. It was a lot more fun then when Men made the moves!
Im glad that others caught Peggy's intentional point of calling Don by his first name after she made him pay back the bail money she had given him. I think that she realized that although she had done him a big favor, and he had done the same for her in the past, that in a way they were now even and that he wasn't going to let her slack. She had to stand her ground.
As for the baby, I think the jury is still out. Peggy's sister, Anita, was definately pregnant, but there is also a possibility that something happened to her own child during birth. If that were the case it would make sense that she would raise Peggy's child as her own without question in the parish. Everyone would just think it was her baby, not Peggy's. I haven't seen another baby, but am I missing something?
I think the revelation of Don's deeper connection to Peggy made a lot of sense. He basically held her job for her while she was getting it together. His comment about,"this never happening" and "moving forward" was so in tune with his own mantra that he was able to give Peggy the confidence that she really could go forward without looking back. I have a feeling that we will see more flashbacks of their conversations.
As for Don and Bobbie....well that's going to be explosive. She's the perfect nauty temptress that has the balls to make Don burst into flames. This is going to get HOT! You think she has forgotten his little crotch grab? Look out Donny!
i only posted once, ???
Figaro:
Well, of course women flirted in the '60s. But, unbuttoning their blouses? In an office setting?
I thought that the unbuttoned thing came in the '80s and then as a fashion statement.
Anyway, what do I know? I was just a little prep in the '60s.
Tonight's episode, "The New Girl"--and the episodes leading to it--has me convinced that season 2 is the equal of, if not superior to, Season 1. Congratulations to all involved in this series. You have destroyed the "sophomore slump" so common of TV series. Eat your hearts out, HBO!
Great Episode!
I loved all the biplay between Bobbi and Peggy--what a surprising twist in the story line--seeing bobbi with her hair down so to speak--no make up and being sincere with peggy made her more likeable.
I also liked the way she confided to Don about the way she had invented and reinvented herself--realizing that what men called "negotiation" was something she had been doing all her life. Once she had that aha moment, she made her opportunity and seized her opportunity just as Don had done - maybe that is why she realizes they have something in common.
As for the Rachel and new husband thing--did anyone else notice that the new husband called Don Draper "Mr. Curtain!" I think he may have done it on purpose to say that Don is so out of the picture, his wife has never mentioned him as the great love of her life etc etc
It was a clever and comic put down--to take Don down a peg or two --a kind of gallant favour so she wouldn't be too shaken by the chance encounter.
One more thing--julia a new poster brought up the subjecty of the opening credits---
I think they are superb in the way they evoke the art of the sixties but in a far slicker fashion. The credit of the falling man--and the shadow silhouette was usd in the opening credits of Hitcock's vertigo and in countless other
films and TV shows of the sixties. I think the outline of the body in Anatomy of a Murder.
Hitcock also comes to mind because Cary Grant in North by Northwest plays an advertising executive who remains immaculate in his "gray flannel suit" another famous novel and film of the period--no matter how many adventures and misadventures he has- in the course of the film!
Great opening theme music--absolutely picture perfect!
I am so satisfied! You know these episodes could stand alone. Like a short movie! It's so good. I can go to sleep now thinking about Don's philosophy, "It's shocking at how 'it didn't happen' it can be"...."you go forward"...
Are we sure Joan's fiance actually exists? Have we seen him yet? Was he at that party in New Jersey? I don't remember.
OK, let's get real. Does anybody really think that Rachel prefers banging that dog looking husband of her's to THE DON? This is an absolute no brainer folks that dude was BORING TO THE MAX. Time to set an over under line for when Don and Rachel hook up again. I'M SETTING IT AT 3 EPISODES. Get your picks in.
Mad Men QUIZ question: How many of the men at Sterling Cooper that we know to be married haven't cheated on-screen?
chopin47- thanks for your response! I would love to see how the relationship between those two.
Montana- rachel's hubby didn't say "Mr. Curtain" he said to rachel that we're going to miss the curtain- indicating that they're seeing a show.
I'm loving all of the responses to this thread- its been very helpful. I was very shocked to see anita pregnant becuase I feel way more confused. Hopefully we'll see that twist develop this season. I really found pete's talk with the dr stone similar to a confessinal. How he thinks the world at that time and his attitude about his job (being replaceable and all) was quite astounding to me.
Loved Rachel's dress by the way!!!
I noticed Rachel came looked like she wet herself when she saw Don and Rachel still had the Hots for each other. And Rachel is trouble because she is a Hypocrite and only a fair weather women. She'd turn on Don in a heartbeat. Bobbi, is turning out to be a good ally for Don, in spite of the fact that they are only lovers. Wow! how heavy is it that Don visited Peggy in the hospital? Does he feel like she had helped him when Pete had him under the Gun? (When peggy was crying to him about bad people getting away with stuff). I think Peggy might eventually become powerful in the office and somehow save Don's ass again down the line. I don't know if personally or professionally but the plot does thicken doesn't it?
Peggy's baby was given up for adoption. Peggy's behavior (her unwillingness to believe she had a baby) led the state of NY to make that decision for her and order her temporary commitment. Her sister Anita was simply pregnant at about the same time.
We were tricked cleverly by the writers at first to think that Anita was raising Peggy's baby--how awful. But in fact that baby in the bedroom is Anita's.
Anita would sure have complained in confession that she was raising Peggy's baby to the young priest (who one day will strum his mandolin out of the priesthood, say, about 1973) because Anita is angry that her mother forgives her sister and that the young priest is impressed with Peggy while she gets stuck with the fruits of her "goodness"-- a crap outer boro life.
It was just not sensible to think her own family was going to make Peggy hold her own "secret" baby in church. Catholic guilt was a force in those days, but it wasn't the inquisition! The unpleasantness of holding her own sister's similarly aged child was what that scene a few eps ago was about. The writers just loved making us freak out by giving us some pieces. That's why they're great. They make us take a while to figure it out.
In conversation with Bobbi, Peggy hints at her underlying anxiety about that baby now out in the world somewhere when she mentions to Bobbi that "a child in our neighborhood hit his head and died." She's living with that phamtom pain and this comment is clearly meant to show us the dual track she is on. Every bad story about some kid that age will haunt her a bit. She's taken Draper's advice, but there's a cost, unlike the Whitmans, Peggy's "moving forward" from an innocent who never called her whoreson etc. So she has her own even more painful version of this road to follow, in some ways far worse than Don.
Don's knowing about Peggy's secret is actually more important to another relationship. The Don/Pete one. C'mon people, after how the show finally explains why the relatives of the real Don Draper have never come looking for him, the next biggest question sitting out there is how the hell Pete doesn't destroy Don with his knowledge about his true identity.
(I loved Harry's season 1 comment about how no one knows Don: "I've tried lifting that rock, He's like Batman.")
To re-balance the relationship between Don and Pete, the writers had to give Don something HUGE on Pete. And in proper 1962 with a respected family name, but one with no family money any more it turns out, Pete cannot have it come out that he fathered a child out of wedlock with a co-worker, the very co-worker now writing the copy for the account his father in law handed him. And after ep 5 tonight, Trudy knows Pete's no George Washington. Daddy loves his little girl and Pete would take a serious beat down on multiple levels (financial, social, maybe even professional) if Trudy learned Pete had already "given" someone a baby.
Don, as a man who is always on guard over his identity, and a brilliant salesman, is very good a piecing together the secrets of others, and their weaknesses. By knowing about Peggy, he is on course to figure out that Pete is the dad of Peggy's child. And that is the balancer needed between the two men.
I loved Peggy wearing the gold ear-rings in the last scene with her and Don, when she first calls him "Don" instead of "Mr. Draper" two examples of taking Bobbi's advice-she tries out both: more equality with "Don" and a slight nod to "being a woman" as Bobbi suggests with the jewelry.
Mad Men is brilliant not because they don't introduce Etch-A- Sketch's in the wrong year, but because of the way they add layers to characters and create interactions between characters that advance the story that offer such great, if troubling insights into our real lives. Just fantastic.
They are plotting far, far ahead and that is the sign of a truly great show. Think about it: Peggy's and Pete's fling and the resultant pregnancy were actually in the storyline BEFORE the box of whitman photos landed in Pete's hands. Man, that's writing a tv show like a novel!
Draper calling Peggy to bail him out, in the context of the flashbacks makes sense. And the incident allows Peggy to grow (a way to get Bobbi's advice) and for her relationship with Draper to grow. Only secret sharers like Rachel get access to and a chance to connect with Draper--Roger still uses accent clues to figure out where Draper's from--and he's supposedly his "friend."
Finally why would Draper come looking for Peggy like that? Like Don, she's a climber, an outsider making her own way so there's some bond there. But the deeper answer is kinda freudian I think. Don's prostitute mother died in childbirth, and children often internalize guilt over their role in their own mother's deaths. Here Don comes to a girl his mother's age and tells her that she has a life waiting for her -- she doesn't have to let that Peggy "die" for giving birth out of wedlock. She can go on, move forward, like Don. Maybe that's the subconscious message he longed to give his mother--to live--but he's transferring to Peggy.
Hamm is wonderful as usual. His eyes, after Rachel leaves Sardi's and when Bobbi starts nuzzling him before the accident, express so subtly the character's core emotion--his anguish, his self-loathing, and yet his desire for indefensible, off the cuff escape that he tries again and again to submerge--his daughter's claustrophobia-inducing birthday party desertion by the train tracks, the asking his beatnik girlfriend to go Paris in Season 1 after the bonus.
A man who can trust no one and lives with the terrible knowledge that we live in a godless, brutally random universe is always on the run, no matter what mask he wears. And that desire to run is hard to keep under control. It's all there in JH's performance -- just perfect in it's subtle shading.
That bit about Don liking the movies will be back. Don is at his most theatrical when he "plays" stern dad, firing boss ("No, please stand ..."), or ready to be executed in front of firing squad brave guy, complete with cigarette in Bert Cooper's office when Pete tries to nuke him. He had to develop that character of Draper, that began with the stolen officer's uniform that impresses the woman on the train. Surely the movies helped him find role models. It's no wonder he's so good at image creation-- it was required for the very existence of "Don Draper."
Matt &Co. --- thanks for the amazing work. It's wildly selfish, to ask, but please keep it coming.
wow jimK- what an analysis! That's why I love this blog... Though I preferred last years format, the opinions and insights from fellow fans are always intact.
wow jimK- what an analysis! That's why I love this blog... Though I preferred last years format, the opinions and insights from fellow fans are always intact.
Sorry if I overdid it. But this show is incredible. If I could really write, I'd get coffee for the people who write it.
Okay, I thought it was BRILLIANT that Don called Peggy to bail him out. And its also MASTERFUL that Don and Peggy are embroiled in each other's secrets.
For a year and a half I've been watching the opening credits seeing Jon Hamm's name, then Elizabeth Moss's wondering, "are these guys pulling the wool over my eyes?" I was of the impression that January Jones or Christina Hendrix would get lead female credit considering Hamm and Moss barely share screen time; and they being the lead male and female characters, but now its all making sense. Their relationship goes much, much deeper and its getting into murkier waters. I'm sure there's so much more we don't know and I can't wait to find out. Now we know that they've opened the door to be each other's "go to" in case of trouble. And we know that Don is going to keep giving Peggy a leg up. Its not what you know, its who you know. I'm sure by the end of the series, Peggy will be the one running the office.
Ask yourselves this, why, in the 1st episode of season 2, were Cosgrove and the rest making insinuations about Peggy's time off being some fault of Don's? I can't remember the exact quote. Why does it seem there are off-hand remarks flying around about Peggy and Don. Obviously these two are watching each other's back and in their own small ways, the rest of the office is picking up on it. Maybe the new girl, being clairvoyant, might pick up on it.
And hey, who's to say that Don didn't send that book to Peggy? She seems to have lots of books in her apartment. She's his protege, more so than the stooges in the office, especially not that tool Pete (VK, loved your work since Angel - not trying to hate here).
1. Peggy and Don are more entwined than we thought.
2. The office senses something about the two of them.
3. Who is Don's book-sending buddy?
4. This is an awesome show!!!
This might be obvious but no one has said it - not even JimK in that great rundown: "The New Girl" is not referring to Don's new secretary, it's referring to Peggy - wearing the gold earrings, calling Don by his first name, etc.....becoming a new girl.
Goodbye Rachel. When she appeared for a moment (and now married), the "look" at Don might as well have been titled: "Strangers When We Meet". I just about cried seeing her - it was done and over. Goodbye Rachel, we'll never see the likes of you again.
Good catch on the title "The New Girl" and it referring to Peggy and not ... wow, I can't remember her name! Yikes!
I agree rao. The title of each episode often has a double or deeper meaning.
My theory is that Anita is still raising Peggy's baby - but she lost hers in childbirth. Her anger towards Betty seems deeper than just resenting her conventional life in a New York borough. That may also explain why her mother may have forgiven her - she sees Peggy being pregnant and giving her sister a child as a miracle.
Bobbi may be annoying but not after this episode (for me anyway). Even if her whole purpose was a contrived plot device to lead into Betty's transformation as the New Girl, it was worth it.
Just have to make one comment- Betty was not being controlling when she denied Don salt- people with high BP are NOT supposed to eat salt.
One more comment about Hamm's acting: I teared up during the scene at the end of Ep4 between Don and his son Bobby. The way Don remembers his father, "much bigger than me" --a child's memory at 10 years old still frozen 26 yrs later.
And the "violet flavored candy" line, delivered like Don's just found a photograph in a book-- trying to offer a memory of long dead person and finding only something inconsequential--because the relationship was so bad--but so viscerally remembered.--and being slightly taken aback by it on both levels.
You don't weep for the hug alone, you weep for the man who can hug and won't hit after being dealt that kind of terrible father and childhood. All captured in that bit of reflection.
Even though it is a brilliant show and has gotten loads of laudatory press, it is not doing well in the ratings, What is more scary, ratings dropped off over 40% over show one in both seasons. For some reason, some potential viewers are not warming to it.
It would have helped if the Golden Globes went on as planned when it got the award for the best TV drama. I suspect that is the show does not get an EMMY or if it gets one and the ratings don't improve, there will be no season 3.
On the DVD during one of the voice over comments from the writer and actors they commented that the story line was that Harry would leap from the building and maybe that's the person falling from the building in the opening credits. But, his character was so lovable they they couldn't kill him off. It was probably going to happen when he was living in the office after his affair. I'm glad they didn't kill him off. Then again, during one of the voice comments Jon Hamm said, there I am falling from the building. So, I guess the person falling from the building is up for grabs. I love this show and I don't know one person who's watching, so I'm happy to find a place where I can leave comments and read other's comments. I'm talking it up with friends and family, but so far no one is watching. I didn't know about this show until a few weeks ago and watched via on demand and dvds from Netflix to catch up.
At first when Sally Draper drank the alcoholic drink at the office, I thought she didn't know what she was drinking, but having made so many drinks for her parents, she knew what she was drinking. Poor little Sally. Sorry if this is off subject, but I've watched Season 1 and so far Season 2 in just over a week or so and they're starting to meld together.
The scene at the police station with the "blustery"
cop. He mentioned Don's blood alcohol level.
Were those tests done in the early 60s? I don't recall that.
Jamm, I know what you mean! There will NEVER be another character like Rachel on Mad Men! She'll be missed and I doubt she'll return--this season! Still, it was great seeing her and watching how she still made Don's world messy! Rachel rocked!
At the end, Don looked like he would have preferred the salt to the love of his family.
OMG - BEST episode yet! LOVED IT. And the best is RACHEL'S BACK - yeayyyyy!!!! C'mon you guys - she's not gone! Not by a long shot. You think she's going to just disappear into oblivion with Mr Peepers? Nah.... she and Don will be back in the sack by Episode 9. (Dennis - did you catch that?) When I saw Rachel in that scene, I ran to the TV to get a closer look. I didn't think she'd make an appearance until the last episode.
Once and for all, the little blond toddler is Anita's baby. In the flashback at the hospital, she was obviously very pregnant. As for Peggy's baby, hullo?... it's the '60s. Babies were not "kept" back then, they were given up for adoption. Especially Catholics. Knocked-up Catholic girls gave their babies up, and nice young infertile couples adopted them.
Wonderful episode, but I can't imagine how Attention Deficit Theater's going to take this on! It's a tough one.
don draper and peggy olson are soulmates but not in the romantic sense ... of course he would have to know about her pregnancy because she took two months off
it was called the new girl because of all the new changes to the women on the cast
new secretary
joan engaged
rachel married
peggy personal confident
trudy has to give in to her twerpy husband
who is bobbi to give advice to any woman about anything when she becomes a hooker to negotiate and get her way
I also think don is a sociopath because of his upbringing and is without conscience the exception being his kids especially his son
peggy probably had a similar story and that is why they are soulmates
and we don't know for sure who the father is yet
don draper is also a selfmade man and thru history these types of men are ruthless and live by theire own set of rules
Interesting episode that answered several questions.
The title of the episode and the characteristically oblique description imply that the "New Girl" is Don's new secretary. In the middle of the episode it be Joan, with a ring on her finger. By the end of the episode, we are left with no doubt that the "New Girl" is Peggy. She will continue to grow as a character.
We finally know that Don is aware of Peggy's situation and helped her to hide her institutionalization. However, we are still unsure whether he knows about the baby. We did see that Peggy's sister Anita was pregnant while Peggy was in the hospital…it would have been very easy to say that Anita gave birth to twins as a way to hide Peggy's pregnancy- we still don't know, but is it possible. From what was presented it appears that Peggy was diagnosed with a nervous breakdown. More than a month after the fact (Don: "Your Christmas present is still on your desk"), she still does not know why she was hospitalized or that she is a mother. Her doctor has told her mother and sister that she still does not know where she is or what has happened. Since her return this season, she has appeared timid and unsure of herself at times, only coming to life so to speak when in Don's presence. With the revelation that Peggy was under a doctor's care for a considerable period of time, we can now see a new dimension to her personality- psychological fragility. Will we see further evidence of psychological problems ? In addition, we have no clues as to Peggy's father, only that he is not in the house. Does Peggy see Don as a surrogate father ?
While I don't want to be trite, it is hard not to refer to the Godfather and the Sopranos when discussing the debts incurred between Peggy and Don. To paraphrase Don Vito Corleone- I will help you, but one day I will ask for your help in return. The debt was paid back when Don called Peggy after his accident. He and Peggy are uneasy allies in that they are now hiding something about their backgrounds that could devastate their current lives if the true facts come to light. Don's advice to her was cold, but needed and his comment that it will shock her how easy it is to hide something like this was obviously drawn from his experience. How will this bond affect their future relationship ? Now that the debt has been cancelled, will Don continue to promote Peggy's career ?
Don is attracted to Bobbie and now seems to enjoy her company to a certain extent. Making a point of telling her not to confuse their affair with business is a clear indication that he has acknowledged that a personal relationship exists between them. We don’t know how emotionally attached he is however. He agrees to meet her at Sardi's when he had the opportunity to turn her down, he agrees to go with her to the shore and does seems to enjoy her physical attention. However he did make a point of telling her that he felt "nothing"- was this a reference to his inebriation or to his feelings for her ? Since a pilot episode of "Grin and Barret" will be filmed we can also see how Bobbie will exit Don's life after the pilot is picked up and the Barrets move to Hollywood.
The very brief encounter with Mrs. Katz left Don shaken. He looked as if he had seen a ghost, while her expression registered shock. Bobbie clearly picked up on the emotions on display, did Mr. Katz ? A more extensive reunion could be explosive.
Whatever sympathy Pete had earned a few weeks ago has vanished completely. He is a cruel self absorbed ass. Yes his reaction to an inability to have a child with Trudy is partly due his desire not to have a child. BUT how could anyone be so callous and insensitive ? There are clearly problems in this marriage…how long will it last ?
Once again, Betty eviscerated Don with a shot right between his eyes. As if dealing with all that had happened in the previous days was not enough, coming home and receiving a body blow from his wife must have been devastating. Don's reaction clearly showed that he is aware of what a mess he is making of his life. "Why can't Daddy have salt ? Because we love him."
I love Bobbi, because I had a "Bobbi" of my own in my life in the mid 60's when I was starting out. She was very a successful woman, which was unusual. She used to sign papers with her first initial, so no on would realize she was a woman. And like Peg, I did her a favor, and she thanked me by taking me under her wing, and mentoring me. I was so poor then, and really didn't know anything about clothes or style. She cleaned out her closet and sent me a box (like one that a stove or dishwasher could have come in) of her hand-me-downs and I was thrilled to get them. Clothes then weren't so generation specific, and they were things I certainly couldn't afford. I wrote her a gracious thank you note, and she continued sending me clothes, helping me with advice, and bringing me a along, until she died. Don't discount Bobbi , she is one to watch.
About Roger: Roger went after Betty, remember? Don doesn't trust Roger.
He promoted Peggy, and I think he likes the idea of being kingmaker. He rejected Pete, but advanced Peggy. He knows he can trust her. He kept her job open for her after her trip to the sanitarium, which was very unusual. More than that, I think he believes in her. She makes him look good.
As for the priest, I kept thinking he looked familiar (after I learned it was Colin Hanks, that seemed obvious) but I kept thinking he reminded me of Pete!
If the ratings are down, I expect it has to do with the Olympics, and the elections. One thing I wish that MM came on at 9:00pm., rather than 10:00 p.m. I don't have "on demand."
That "no salt" bullshit is the exact reason Don strays! He's sick of her smothering!
Don, baby! You are only gonna get kinkier next eppy! Can't wait to see how freaky you can get! Whew!
Visan: Do you really think Rachel was a one-shot appearance?
Dennis: Did you get my bet? In the sack by Episode 9.
The best clue to story with Peggy/baby/Anita is in Don's visit to the hospital. He asked her if she knew what they wanted her to do, she said yes, and he said "do it" - you need to get out of here. I think they wanted her to either keep the baby or give it to Anita. I do think the baby is Peggy's and is going to be central to a plot line involving Pete's wife's infertility. In those days it was very possible for parents (or a husband) to have an adult child (or wife) committed to an institution until they capitulated to whatever the family wanted. I actually saw it happen to a wonderful girl who wanted to leave her abusive husband to be with a man who adored her. Her parents and her husband decided that she must be crazy and had her certified as incompetent. She was given shock treatments in the hospital and when she finally got out she was like a zombie and didn't even recognize the man that she was in love with. Women have come a very long way in having personal rights.
"What they wanted her to do" was probably give it up for adoption. And that's why Don was saying "Do it". He's all about erasing the past; not keeping reminders of it in the other room. I'll say it again - she gave it up for adoption -- that is what was done in those circumstances.
Episodes continue to run true to the times for me.
I was reprimanded at boarding school for "busting buttons" in an American history class.
The dormitory lounge included a cigarette machine that was kept very busy. The only place there wasn't smoke was in bedrooms or outside.
Dad was taken off a commuter train to a hospital. Immediately after that episode window A/C was installed at home. In hindsight I see better what the 'secret' was.
Had friends who were adopted. Was to discover later their mother's could not bear children due to 'home' abortions earlier in life. Those adoptees have had a much more difficult time finding birth parents than later decades due to laws and records.
I also agree it was much easier for parents to have an adult child committed to an institution back then.
Always have to watch episodes a couple of times to catch so many 'messages'. The blog helps.
Surprised me that Peggy was the helper.
Nice surprise the other Bobbies side, very interesting advices (I thought an other "other girl"). And Peggy has her own past and Don has this connection to her for his own dark side. When he sais do whatever they ask you to do, they make clear she is in a mental institution and they are giving to her some kind of psicotherapy. May be he knows about these things for his own past... what happened after he changed his identity?
I think Annita was carring a pillow to later mother Peggy's son. Peggys baby is the "little one" as the priest said; so he's the youngest.
Great episode! Love the plot twists. Keeps me coming back. So anyway, here's what I think:
Joan does look heavier by about 20 lbs - could be padding and wardrobe selection because her arms are still thin. It's meant to show she's getting long in the tooth by early 60s standards (a first-time bride age 31 was quite old then). Yes, we have seen her doctor fiance - they were necking fully clothed on the couch the night Jackie Kennedy was on tv (remember?) and Joan preferred the tv to his caresses. Her rear view has spread and I think that's what Roger was thinking as he wistfully watched her walk out of his office after they discussed her engagement and his unhappy marriage. Also his crack about "relatively young love". That was low. Not a nice man at all.
Roger - now pathetic, weak and sad - is reduced to hiring a prostitute and treating her like a girlfriend. Foreshadowing: the call girl says "no one dies from this (sex)" but she's wrong - men die "in the saddle" all the time. I predict Roger will have another heart attack while in bed with the hooker. He is on top of her and she can't get out from under his dead weight (even if he's not dead yet) - and has to call room service to rescue her. Who will come to sort it out?
OR - Roger will hook up with Don's new secretary, who wants to take Joan's place in more ways than one. But this gal is about 10 yrs younger than Joan, and her ideas are more modern - she will want more from an office affair than clandestine lunchtime or afterhours hotel romps - and I don't mean a canary in a cage.
Don and Bobbi will act out bondage and domination fantasies as they both use each other to achieve various ends. It will become obvious that Jimmy is aware of their affair.
Don's marriage to Betty is now complete vanilla, without flavor...symbolized by the lack of salt in the meatloaf. "You'll get used to it" she said. However, it gives Don an excuse not to deal with Betty sexually - she thinks he's nearly an invalid due to high blood pressure.
Don will confront Betty violently when he sees her talking to the younger man at the country club. Betty will challenge Don's double standar by bringing up his multiple infidelities.
Peggy will find out there's a limit to her upward mobility as she's excluded from some meetings. Don will indeed punish her because she reminds him of his close call.
Oh please. They might do the pillow stuffing fake pregnancy thing on Desperate Housewives, but not here.
As for what happened to Peggy's baby: I think the comment Peggy made to Bobbie about "a little boy in the apt. building who hit his head and he died" has some relevance. Otherwise it was a throw away line and the show doesnt have throw away lines.
Also I believe Joan bought the engagemet ring herself and there is no fiance. She is trying to push Roger to leave his wife and move her to "the country" (suburbs) as she told Peggy on her first day happens if she plays her cards right.
What if that remark about the little boy in the apartment was about Peggy's baby? What if Peggy killed her baby? I just can't put together how Anita is pregnant when Peggy was in the hospital. Where is Anita's baby?
WOW WOW WOW! Last nights Man Men with the Peggy's flashbacks and what Don's advice to her WOW WOW WOW!
The new girl fresh meat for the wolves heehee.
Don's words to Joan ...that's not wedding bells..in reference to answering the phone. Cracked me up.
Harry's Mozart d' zipper cracked me up too.
Looking forward to the next segment, Mad Men flies by so fast!
Wonder if Pete will learn about the baby and that it's his son. His wife is deperate for a child think it will be more intense with time too.
My favorite quip from last night's episode was the new girl, Jane, meeting Ken for the first time:
"I'm sorry, what is your title here?"
"I'm Ken.....Cosgrove, accounts."
Kenny is gonna have to try a little harder than that!
Drink&Smoke: Why can't you figure out how Anita could be pregnant? She's a married woman, she already had two kids. When Peggy was in the hospital, Anita was SHOWN there looking about 9 mos. pregnant with her 3rd child. What's so hard about that? The child now is the toddler we saw in the crib and again in church, and again at the Easter Egg hunt. I have 3 sisters, we were often pregnant together.
Don is a terrific judge of character and master manipulator. He had to be to to reinvent himself as Don Draper and succeed in a highly competitive business world. As an advertising man he sells illusions, and his biggest illusion is himself.
He sees his own character traits in Peggy and seizes on her ambition to rise above her station to manipulate her. That is why he counseled her to compartmentize by quickly moving on as if the pregnancy and birth never happened and told her she will will be amazed how easy it is to do. Don saw Peggy as the only one he could trust to cover up the drunken driving accident--at least until she called him "Don" which stunned him. Don, of course, did not foresee Bobbie's corrupting influence on Peggy--how could he?
Someone commented on what an annoying character Bobbie is--like a buzzing mosquito. That is very true and funny. But Bobbie is so good at that-- how can you not love her?
One thing I do not understand is Peggy being described as a beauty. She is young and clean cut and looks like a Catholic school girl of that era. But to me, she is Miss Plain Jane. Maybe she has been scripted like that to be a contrast with the other sexy beauties in Don's life, and to create the illusion of a woman suceeding in the business world through her intelligence, not her sexy wiles--an illusion that may come crashing down on Don.
pj - you're right, Peggy is not a beauty. Bobbi was trying to flatter/b-shit Peggy and thereby loosen her up to spill info about Don. (Remember her saying she wishes she were Peggy's size? Also flattery, though Peggy is very slim now) Bobbi and Don, master manipulators - and Peggy is going to train under both of them. Will either one or both of them come to see her as dangerous?
"As Peggy prepares to leave her sister and mother, her sister asks, "Aren't you going to say goodnight?" Peggy briefly peeks on a blond-haired blue-eyed infant from the doorway of the bedroom he's sharing with his cousins."
This is from the Flight 1 episode recap. More food for thought, but I don't think any conclusion can be drawn from this.
QUESTION
When Bobbi tells Peggy to be a woman because she can't be a man... I'm not sure I understand exactly what she was trying to tell her. Is it that she's fully capable as a woman and doesn't need to try to fit in as one of the mad men? Is she telling her to use the fact that she's a woman to get what she wants? As in using her body to get ahead? I don't necessarily mean just sleeping with men, maybe dressing a certain way?
I don't usually like over analyzing but this was important and I'm a little confused. Is she telling her to be a strong assertive woman? Or that its ok to whore yourself out a little?
I'm still cracking up at when Pete went to "give his sample" and was looking through the magazines, they then immediatley cut to Roger Sterling pounding the paddleball. No one got that??
Greg, would you care to explain it for me? :)
Don isn't "cold" in his advice to Peggy at the hospital. And he doesn't need to "manipulate" a junior copywriter--especially one he promoted--the first woman in that job in that firm since the war.
Don isn't a "sociopath." He's a desperate, lonely person trying to make his way in a world that has failed him literally from birth.
Don doesn't believe in god and sees no order in the universe. He sees that big institutions on earth are not what they are advertised either -- whether it's the army that sends him to a fighting position that is certain death (2 guys to to the job of 22) to a WASP-y white shoe New York agency with that is considered "respectable" and actually revels in dumping clients "old business is just old business."
Don shows his view of the emptiness of institutions when he dismissively replies to his beatnik girlfriend's true love by telling him that there is no "establishment" to be blamed for society's ills. Don knows--he went looking for it as some kind of authority to give him direction. From obedient farmhand/whoreson ward, to army private, to his lovely suburban home complete with barbie wife, to Sterling Cooper, Don can't find a set of rules that doesn't turn out to fail him that isn't rife with hypocrisy and hopeless contradiction.
So he tries as best he can to use his will to make sense of the universe. His problem is that nothing works. His wife wants him to hit his kid as a sign that he cares about his family. His boss wants him to drop a trusted client to get a bigger client rather than to grow the first client through their work. And both are supported by society in those views.
But in his gut he knows they're wrong. That society is wrong.
He swings from trying on one set of rules to another as he sees they don't work, and in those moments of depressing clarity he wants to flee--to Paris, to the railroad tracks in Ossining, to a Stony Brook beach. All desperate, crazy subversive acts/desires. NOT sociopathic behavior akin to a Tony Soprano having sex with the one-legged polish cleaning lady. That's sociopathic self-indulgence.
And then when he is called on it by Rachel, he is ashamed of this desire to run. So he manfully submits to Pete's unmasking in front of Bert Cooper, like a man facing a firing squad -- and then ducks that bullet and goes on to try to service Betty and his clients as penance. But it doesn't stick.
Dick Whitman is desperate for answers. He found some of them in movies, with that "Teddy" from the fur company and other sources, to create the Don Draper character, but now he's reading poetry in bars and slipping away from the office to watch foreign films.
Roger Sterling is the decadent, immoral bastard whose decline with women -- from husband to Sugar Daddy to straight paying client, mirrors Sterling Cooper's decline. Hate him if you want.
Don's thing with Bobbi starts as a disgusting bit of forced business-related whoring on his part, but as she chases him, he can't help but give in. The universe has no rules, Bobbi is the latest embodiment of this and at some point Don just stops fighting. And it has value to him. Straying from Betty releases the claustrophobic hold he's allowed her to place over him since the first season and allows him to perform in bed again.
Don't think his pain over Rachel isn't real. He regularly runs from pain into sensuality. He's not a "cold bastard." "I don't feel anything" he replies to Bobbi with a mix of anguish and disgust as he swigs the whiskey before the accident. This is not a man to envy or to hate. It is a man to pity and perhaps root for no matter how hopeless his journey may be.
He's reacting to a world, a society with the same blunt force it has battered him with from birth. But he's still staggering on, trying to find something better. He doesn't want to be like Bobbi, accepting that this is all there is.
And for goodness sake, Don brushed off Peggy in Ep One, when she thought she was supposed to sort of offer herself to him. He ISN'T the father of her baby unless the writing staff has had a collective cerebral hemorrhage.
Bobbi and Rachel are history – I’d be surprised to see them again – perhaps a walk–on as with Rachel last night – but that’s it. This is a story – many arcs – few closures. There will be new women for Don – just not the ones that work at the agency.
The writing is brilliant and John Hamm makes the show as Don Draper. I watched ‘Kissing Jessica Stein’ to see him play another character – a 90 second forgettable role. I’m confident that Don Draper will do for John Hamm what Tony Soprano did for James Gandolfini.
Mad Men could easily be as popular as the HBO hit if it weren’t for all the commercials. TOO MANY COMMERCIALS! The spots interfere with the story line and are distracting to the plot. I Tivo the show and start watching 20 minutes later.
haha well, while unfortunately i could win a medal if it were an olympic sport, i'll refrain :)
Great comments all around!
Cad men: I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment on the title, 'The New Girl.' It was interesting to see how all of the women had changed in some way. The new secretary was the least significant of the changes -- in fact, her showing her 'decolletage,' as Joan says, seems to be the soon-to-be outdated mode for female advancement in 1962. It strikes me that the writers (note that a woman, Robin Veith, penned this episode) were making their boldest comment yet about the changing dynamics for women at this point in our history.
Peggy: as noted by others here, her change was the most profound. The earrings, the striking blue blouse (heretofore she was always in drab colors; remember Pete asking her is she was Amish(!)), and calling Draper 'Don.' Great stuff.
Rachel: Her married status was a shock, to a man in all ways opposite of Don -- not particularly attractive, not slick, not a goyim. In one way, one could see this as a hasty marriage for Rachel on the rebound from Don. However, it was telling in their scene that she seemed confident and 'over him,' while he looked a wreck. Her withering little joke to Bobbie was priceless. It's funny how Don's personal ethos is 'move forward,' but he clearly couldn't here -- in fact, the whole episode he seems increasingly like an anachronism in a world leaving him behind.
Joan: Engaged, and doing her victory lap. She has achieved her 'career goal'. As an aside, this is going to prove a tricky one for the writers. Will her character, clearly the Queen Bee of the SC office, be as compelling? Wouldn't she presumably quit once she gets married and pregnant? Not sure where they will go with her now.
Betty: A more subtle change, but I thought her response to Don's accident and disclosure of medical problems was remarkably rational and even caring. She displayed a maturity that was never on display in Season One. And, importantly for Don, she appeared to be more in control in their relationship -- taking away the salt.
None of these changes, I should add, bode particularly well for Don in his current form. His control over all the women in his life is eroding -- the little S&M previewed in next episode makes a lot of sense! Speaking of the S and the M, even Bobbie acquits herself well in this episode. Like many on this board, I'm no fan -- but she was endearing in her treatment of/counsel to Peggy. Like Joan Crawford, Rosalind Russell or some other 'tough old bitch' tenderly telling the next generation how to use their gender role to their advantage. In this context of 'new girls', I think the first allusion to Marilyn Monroe in this episode was pointed; Monroe represented a man's fantasy of what a women should be -- by early 1962, literally and figuratively, she was on the way out.
One side question: Not to sound like the questions at the end of the Cliff Notes chapter discussions, but did Don give Peggy good advice? I love their relationship -- he respects her, sees himself in her because she is struggling to become something different than her lot in life. The line she says in Season One on the date with the truck driver about New York people being 'better than us. They want things they've never even seen' or whatever it was, reminded me of Don in some way. They are kindred spirits, and now mutual secret sharers (I agree with others that Don is ever-resourceful in choosing her; he trusts her yet also has something on her -- with him it's always more than one reason!). However, I couldn't help feeling ambivalent about him telling her to 'move forward.' He is a man essentially abandoned as a child, and he is advising her to do the same to her own son? Man, this show is many-tentacled!
Lastly, I love Don as a movie buff -- his little escapes to the movies during work hours always reminded me of 'The Moviegoer,' by Walker Percy.
JimK. You and some others, but you most extensively, have documented what this story is really about. You forced me to an insight and I hope this is not too off topic to share.
Don Draper's life and Season 1/2 is what we almost never see on TV or in novels anymore anymore--a moral story about business. If anyone here is familiar with the themes of 1930s-60s great novelist (and sadly neglected one) James Gould Cozzens (By Love Possessed, Guard of Honor, Morning Noon and Night, The Last Adam), Mad Men is in this tradition. The writing has his spare, unsentimental, realistic style and themes. (BTW By Love Possessed was one of the top novels of the 1950s--the movie is a bad take on it--and Guard of Honor still makes lists of top ten novels about WWII). Cozzens wrote about the world of the professions, business, men and women, families, relationships and man's relationship in upholding the order of a right and just society.
In addition the lives of Don Draper (and Peggy to a degree)show the severe shortcomings of situational ethics, a//k/a moral relativism, which gained popularity in Christian (not Catholic) circles in the period (Joseph Fletcher.) "Love is the ultimate law" (that is love for all people, not the physical love we see so much of here) and ends can justify the means, etc. etc. Objectivism (Ayn Rand) in fact, is the polar opposite.
I'll leave it to those who want to debate philosophy on whether this is valid--I believe that with no fixed morality and sense of right and wrong we are damn lost--so DD's flailing is the only outcome of his personal philosophy, or lack thereof.
The fact that the series has lost audience (Olympics be damned) shows how out of touch the average viewer is with a moral story. (BTW Law & Order Criminal Intent, my other favorite series, touches upon the consequences of situational ethics in the characters of the two detective pairs, but in a very muddled and unsatisfying way, indicating the writers aren't really conscious of the "arc beneath.". There are similarities between Goren and Draper, except that Goren's choice of situational ethics aren't obviously not working anymore as he bleeds right off the screen.)
Ok, so here goes. Peggy and Don's relationship is one of two people with pasts. I think that we will find out that Don knows that Pete is Peggy's baby daddy. He'll use that later. Don knows better than anyone how to cover stuff up and he knows that Peggy would never rat him out. Remember when Peggy gave Don's secretary a dressing down about talking about him. Peggy is very protective of Don because of what he did for her. She appreciates it but also wants the same level of respect. Bobbie understands Peggy, and will help her get her respect. I think we'll see big changes in Peggy in the coming episodes.
Pete and his wife will not be able to conceive. They will look to adopt and "POOF" here will appear a child, about 18 months old...could it be???
Betty knows where Don was. She said "you said you wouldn't disappear like that anymore". She's now going to torment him for his indiscretions. Good luck Don!!!
Don likes the attention and free spirit of Bobbie. there is a pattern in the women he likes...Rachel, Midge, Bobbie...all women who know what they want...strong women. Betty is not those girls....that's why he likes the others.
What Roger said to Joan about her not working really caused Joan to pause. Even though she thinks marrying the Dr. is a good thing, she's going to think twice especially with Don's new sex kitten secretary who will look to replace Joan. My take is that Joan will choose career over marriage.
The baby was adopted...there was no pillow stuffing.
Pete, in a nutshell, a selfish ass. He is soooooo self centered and cold. But, he's the type that will go postal some day. Keep watching him.
Cosgrove should just open up his own escort service. His services will no longer be needed soon as the times change. Cosgrove will turn into Milton from Office Space in the coming years.
Peggy was very smooth with Don when she called him Don. I loved the look on his face! I wish is that Betty get more of a backbone and play with
Arthur. Don is such a jerk to her! He only loves himself and his kids! Betty does need to lay off Bobby though as in the last episode! What is up with that? I wish that Betty was more like Bobbi. She is an aggressive female. I am confused about Peggy's baby. I assume he was adopted since her sister was pregnant in the hospital scene. And what a jerk Pete is! Bragging about being virile so his wife can feel bad about difficulty conceiving. These men on this show treat their wives like crap except for Harry! Cant wait for next week's episode!
Laurie B, I think Greg is talking about what men do -more frequently as adolescents boys-which used to be called abusing oneself. Sorry, do not mean to lower the level of discourse. But the imagery in the show was very clear.
Old fashioned--great observation about the Marilyn Monroe conversation--clearly a harbinger--you're either a "new girl" or your on your way out.
I disagree about his advice to Peggy. Don's prostitute mother died in childbirth, and children often internalize guilt over their role in their own mother's deaths. Here Don comes to a girl his mother's age and tells her that she has a life waiting for her -- she doesn't have to let that Peggy "die" for giving birth out of wedlock. She can go on, move forward, like Don. Maybe that's the subconscious message he longed to give his mother--to live--but he's transferring to Peggy.
I also like the perhaps unintentional parallels with Don's waking up in the army hospital. The army mistakenly okayed his terrible crime: desertion-- by handing him a purple heart and discharging him as DD thanks to his swiping DD's dogtags.
In St. Marys Hospital, Don appears as an authority figure to Peggy to absolve her of her terrible crime and gives her a way out.
By bigsis on August 25, 2008 8:10 AM The scene at the police station with the "blustery"
cop. He mentioned Don's blood alcohol level.
Were those tests done in the early 60s? I don't recall that.
Review the background of the winners of the Presidential elections of 2000 & 2004. I think you will find that they did indeed measure BAC back in the 50's & 60's.
And yes, it was not a big deal to drive while intoxicated back then.
DonnaC--
Thanks for those suggestions I will check them out. I agree that Don is flailing, he's falling, surrounded both those images and their promise of happiness in the opening.
Anita is raising Peggy's baby. The Synopsis says he is sharing a room with his cousins—Anita's children.
Geographical error: Bobbie and Don are heading for her place in Stony Brook. Stony Brook is on Long Island Sound, not on the ocean, and only during a major hurricane would she hear any surf.
It's not clear whether Don knows why Peggy was hospitalized for so long. If her cover story is a medical illness (TB or perforated appendix were commonly used) she might have said so. No reason for such a long hospitalization after childbirth, so he might not suspect. Perhaps she had postpartum depression—even psychosis—and that's why the state deemed her unable to give consent to an adoption, as seemed her intent.
The new secy's open buttons were definitely a no-no back then, not (as now) a fashion statement.
@Visan & LaurieB: yes, it was wonderful and sad to see Rachel. When I saw the husband, I knew it was a one shot deal. They wrapped up the whole storyline in a few lines of dialogue (intro of husband; Don asking about the other agency; Rachel commenting on Don's work relationship, i.e. Bobbie). Rachel would NEVER be unfaithful to her own spouse, she's too classy for that. And being no fool, she knew Don had "moved on" to banging a new client, and probably figured she had been one in a long line of many with the presence of Bobbie.
I can see why Don called Peggy from the police station after the scene where he visits her at St Mary's Hospital. What wasn't very clear was whether Don knew exactly why Peggy was in the hospital. He mentioned TB and quarantine as an excuse given by Peggy's mother, but he obviously didn't believe it - his appearance at the hospital proves that. But does Don know that Peggy had a child? I wasn't sure about that, and can't remember if he asked her. I don't know if his advice "move forward" and forget about all of it was the healthiest or the best thing (it's not quite working for him, and it's not helping Peggy free herself from the past).
Roger and Joan are still a mystery to me. Was it all about the ring for Joan? I swear she's not even remotely in love with the doctor, but she is in love with the ring! In their scene together, it didn't look like Roger will make a play for her, but was trying to tell Joan that she was special to him. Joan wasn't buying it, though. Don't care for Joan this season - she seems like a grumpy old bag.
Overall, this was the most action-oriented episode, where things moved along more.
Drunk driving was not the big deal it is today. While in my twenties back in the 1970s I went to a company picnic at a park in Rockland County where I got totally blitzed. On the way home, I fell asleep at the wheel (fortunately, I was stopped on the shoulder). I was picked up by 2 cops who drove me to the nearest dinner to sober me up with coffee and from there drove myself home
DonnaC-
Don was offered Ayn Rand by Bert Cooper, it was popular among a certain crowd in the ad world in that era. My dad worked for McCann-Erickson, (the firm that chased don last season), back then.
But I think Don's experience with big business makes him unlikely to become a dewey-eyed Dominique Francone about the wonder of enterprise and the glory of the U.S. constitution.
Don is in romantic reaction to our supposedly "rationale" society. It is bound to be messy.
On a lighter note-- that was a funny bit having Roger beat the ball after Pete gets ready to give his sample. Roger, because he is such a font of humor in the story is far more bearable. And John Slatttery does like a McGuyver-like acting job -- getting a huge bang for his number of lines per show. He's fantastic. His interaction with Harry two eps back was terrific. And that line in "For Those Who Think Young" : "Kinsey doesn't realize his written his own death warrant."-- just great.
JimK,
Excellent point about the hospital parallels -- I hadn't thought of it, but I'm sure it's a deliberate choice. It's a place where people are born and die, and both Don and Peggy kind of 'gave birth to themselves' in hospitals. Very clever stuff.
This is the fascinating thing about this show, and why in many ways it fits squarely in the tradition of great American writing. One of the central themes of the American literary tradition is 'The Self-Made Man' -- Gatsby, Clyde Griffiths in American Tragedy, Tom Wingfield in Glass Menagerie, etc. -- and Don and Peggy both embody the Self Made Man. However, the conundrum of the self-made man is that this creation almost always involves an act of desertion somewhere along the way. And the past never stays past.
I'm not sure either way if Don was giving her the right advice. It may have been the right advice; adoption was and remains a viable option for a girl/young woman not equipped to raise a child on her own. He did, of course, present it to her as if it's the easy choice. And his anguish both about getting caught and about the death of his brother Adam -- indicates it isn't as easy as he suggested to Peggy. For Peggy, like Don before, this may have been the right choice -- but it is a choice with consequences.
God, I love this show.
I should add, I don't know think she gave the baby up for adoption. I have assumed all along that the baby her sister is raising is Peggy's. Still operating under that assumption, but the fact that her sister did look visibly pregnant confused me.
Great episode!
I was hoping someone could remind me about the conversation Pegs sister had in the confessional with the priest...? did she say she was raising her sisters child? I cannot remember - I assume no - but did confess that she had a baby correct?
Gail Klein and I were thinking we should have a MadMen convention in NYC. Where else? Who else on the blogs lives in New York? Is there a cool bar we could meet at? Maybe watch the last Season 2 episode? Just thinking out loud.... who's in?
Jkoron--
Anita is not raising Peggy's baby. Anita and Peggy have two brothers who the father refers to before the priest comes over ---one is named "little Gerry."
Anita and Peggy's kids both could be "cousins" to their children as mentioned in the synopsis. Otherwise that seems like a lot to throw away in a web recap.
The clearly pregnant Anita gave birth to a kid about the same time. How she could have "stuck a pillow" in her belly and covered for Peggy? There weren't two baby's in that room. If the synopsis wanted come right out and say it, it would have not read, peggy sees a blonde, blue-eyed boy with his cousins, it would be sees "her baby." It was designed to throw us off.
Laurie--
Sounds cool but I don't know if a bar would be quiet enough to watch the show.
The Mozart piece played on zipper is "Eine Kleine Nacht Musik," or "A Little Night Music." No doubt, more sexual innuendo.
JimK wrote: Anita is not raising Peggy's baby. Anita and Peggy have two brothers who the father refers to before the priest comes over ---one is named "little Gerry."
You're kidding right? As if Peggy and Anita would have BROTHERS who are elementary school-age? Those kids are Anita's sons. Sheesh!
Old Fashioned--
Right on the money about the role of desertion as crucial to self invention.
Maybe I'm wrong about the baby, but having her hold it during church and look away so cooly while it cries would say horrible things about Peggy's family and her. It seems too much.
And that line to Bobbi about a the child hitting it's head and dying in her neighborhood--that's the signal that Peggy thinks about the baby she gave up whenever there's a local news story about a kid around the age of hers coming to harm.
No those boys could have been their brother's sons. But it is less far fetched to think those boys are cousins of Anita's child, than that Peggy's baby was in the room and Anita's was not. And Peggy holding her own baby like that in church? And her family letting her doing it after having a breakdown?
That can't be Peggy's baby unless she is complete nut case and her family is truly monstrous.
JimK,
Yes, and Don's advice seems very clearly about giving up the baby. I suppose this is what happened; it makes more sense, but the visual cues of Peggy in the bedroom not saying good night and the Easter Egg hunt threw me off. Damn it, I'm confused all over.
If there's a bar in NYC good for hosting the show on a Sunday night, I'd be game. Bars are usually less crowded on Sundays, so it's possible.
Peggy is 20-22 years old. Anita is probably younger than she looks, as is the mother. Their hairdos are now only worn by really old ladies. So they look particularly old to us.
Could Peggy's mom have had more children, elementary school age late in life? Yes. It would make them the baby's uncles, not cousins, but we'll see. Probably those boys are Anita's but it just doesn't work.
I just don't think that baby was peggy's. Anita's baby was born after Peggy's. Their mom says, "don't you want to see the baby?" To me this says Anita's baby. Anything else seems truly sick.
Where, oh where is Peggy's baby... Loved Peggy calling him "Don". Now that they both have the goods on each other, they are true equals.
Great transition... from Pete giving a sperm sample to Roger playing paddleball. Good one.
Am tired of Bobbie as are a lot of you. A little of her goes a long way.
Very sad scene at the end when Betty said "because we love him".
Every comment and observation in this blog about the multi-faceted characters has insight. It shows how good the production is - the writers have created a believable world of prople with the complex personality traits we all have as flawed humans.
On a much less philosophical or literary note: I hope Bobbie (whom I enjoy in the Joan Crawford/Barbara Stanwyck role as the maneater with maybe a heart) will encourage Peggy to "dress for success". I look forward to a bonfire of the the jumpers, the round collared Ship 'n' Shore shirts, the overly pleated and plaid skirts from the junior miss department that hurt the eyes. And a little makeup to bring out those eyes, even out the complexion and lipstick badly needed. (The hair -- she has to retain bangs because her forehead is WAAAY back there.) Baby needs to get HER mojo on to get that corner office!
Hey, maybe Sal can dress her....
Draper is going to have a big-ass breakdown soon. You can tell. He said "I feel nothing". There is only so long before someone can't deal with the cool exterior.
Also, when are Ken and Peggy going to get it on? It's obvious that he's got the hots for her. He treats her the nicest out of all of the jr execs.
I thought the use of the color blue in this episode was interesting - possibly showing the evolution of "new girls" from secretary, to executive wannabe, to engaged and on the road to wife and stay at home mother? Joan's royal blue dress on the day after she's engaged, Don's secretary's aqua dress, Peggy's blue cardigan in the apartment with Bobbi, and then Peggy's stylish blue blouse in the final scene where she refers to Draper as Don. And then of course back to the blue egg from episode 4.
I think Peggy's child died.
She made the comment to Bobbie that a neighbor child had fallen off the playground and went to sleep and died.
Later Bobbie makes the comment "Isn't that a kick in the head" ....Peggy winced.
Perhaps another allegory to the concussion, dying, child... etc.
Think there is a connection there.
Did anyone notice the tune on Don's radio as he and Bobbi were on the way to the lake house? It was "Summer Place." A bit of a cliche, don't you think?
Peggy's child did not die. She's in denial that she had one. Just as Draper is in denial that he was Dick before. Also, her baby is also Pete's baby which sets up an interesting interplay because Pete's wife is infertile. Lastly, this whole pillow theory is not accurate. If you go back and watch the episodes from the past, you see like 4 babies in the upstairs room of Peggy's sister's house. One of the 4 is Peggy's baby--the blonde one. The others are her sister's babies.
jimk, you brought up something about Don needing rules and the ones he does have are failing him. Well, he has a new set of rules with Peggy and they seem to be working. Also, someone else brought up the fact that Peggy dressed down Don's previous secretary for being flip about him. This was before we realized there was a connection. Peggy is going to fight and cover for Don for many reasons. He has done a lot for her.
And I also want to point out that laws about people's medical records were sorely lax. Its really been the last decade or so where HIPAA Laws have come into effect. 2004 was when GW Bush signed the law for more stringent medical records privacy. (I work in the medical insurance field) So Don, back in 1960 (hell, even in the 1980s), could have easily asked about Peggy at the hospital. I'm sure the people at the hospital must have assumed that Don was the father, there were no other strange men coming around to see her. I'm sure Peggy's family assumes Don is the father. Its not like Pete came around looking for her, or Peggy mentioned anything about Pete. So in Anita's confession, she may have been referring to Don.
This connection between Don and Peggy will bite them in the butt, I think. Here they are covering for each other, but people think its for the wrong reason. Everyone in the office is whispering, Bobbi is making assumptions ... and then the baby gets discovered. With the exception of Pete, who will assume that Don is the daddy? Or not.
I just love the new Don/Peggy dynamic. I don't want it to be a romantic one either. I like them as thieves in the night.
I can't wait until its 1968 and Sterling Cooper is now known as Draper Olsen.
Draper and Olsen's relationship is hardly sexual. But i udnerstand what you're getting at drb. I think it's like there is a mutual understanding because they both have something to hide. But Peggy is immature still (she is only 22, 23, I think?) and she has a lot to learn. Business is business and people won't go out of their way for your, especially in advertising. Probably Don covered for Peggy simply because she was a great copyeditor and had some fresh ideas. It's business.
drbambee- I liked the point about Anita thinking that Don could be the father for her to say in the confessional that Pegs seduced a married man. However, we don't know how much Peggy talked about Pete (or Don for that matter) to her family. We'll see how the season goes....
Drbambee--
I think the Peggy/Don professional relationship has some interesting potential. Don gravitates to strong women as conquests but now perhaps is evolving slowly toward respecting one of them as a colleague--especially a hard worker like Peggy.
I don't think it will play out as typical melodrama. On this show, Don just gives his brother $5000 bucks and then the brother hangs himself--he doesn't shoot him.
Both Don and Peggy give closed answers. Look at Peggy's answers to Bobbi. They are both searchers unhappy with what the world offered them.
It might not be love, but it could be the start of a beautiful friendship--or as much friendship as DD will allow.
I took Roger's paddle balling (my, that sounds quite vulgar!) as a substitute for his desire to paddle Joan's bottom for getting engaged (how dare she officially ruin his fantasy that she belongs to him!). Notice how he looks wistfully after her whenever she walks out on him. He does come right out and ask her to let him give her a few swats - does he add, "for old times"? Remind me - I can't recall.
Am I reading too much into that? It was a great scene. He seems to have great aim, by the way.
So happy to see Rachel again...she's the toughest woman Don has ever dealt with and he missed her terribly - you could see it in his eyes.
Timid Peggy will surprise us all and become a bigger part of the show.
Love how Don lives two very different lives - steak tar tar and hearts of palm with the mistress and meatloaf and ketchup with the wife and kids. Two very different lives, but they are both killing him.
Brilliant!
JimK:
Wow, your take on things is really impressive! I was kidding around and told my boss, Don, with Bobbie, is Dick Whitman, swigging out of the bottle, please!.......
By all means, I'm not at all looking for Don and Peggy to become romantically involved. No way. They aren't each other's type. And it would be very strange to see. I think what we see between them is what I think used to be called a "Gentlemen's Agreement". Someone might want to fact-check that term for me. They've entered into a quiet, discreet understanding with each other. They're the only ones who know that they've got each other's back. Its business. And I loved that this door has been opened for us to see it. Its something he can't have with the chuckle-boys at the office, nor with any of the husband-hungry office girls.
My gut tells me that Peggy hasn't spoken about anything happening with the baby to her family. I'm guessing the hospital must have told her family that a man came by to talk with Peggy, or they might have seen him. Hell, he called their house. Without any other proof of another man calling, I would assume that the insistant man calling about my daughter is the father of her child. You have a family looking for answers from a closed off daughter and they're getting clues where they can. Don called. Don showed up to the hospital. Don's a married man. No other man has come looking for her. And how unusual, for 1960, would it be for your boss - not his secretary - to go out of his way to look for you? As one of Peggy's family members, I would put all my daddy eggs in Don's basket.
That's only my interpretation.
funkymomma,
Elizabeth Moss is billed as the lead female character. I'll love seeing more of her. The show basically revolves around Don and Peggy with forays into the other characters as they define Don and Peggy. Its just taken a little time for Don and Peggy to have scenes together again, but we had to build up to it. Don and Peggy are going to be a force to be reckoned with.
andre01
About Ken and Peggy. I agree. I've been noticing that since last season. Now I'm starting to doubt anything will happen.
p.s. does no one have an answer to my peggy/bobbi question?
andrea01* sorry! typo
Maybe Anita was pregnant at the same time as Peggy, but had a still born baby, and is raising Peggy's baby as her own. Remember the American Airlines presentation was like "giving birth to a stillborn baby"...a little foreshadowing there? And Anita is so angry with Peggy, confessing Peggy's sin to the new priest, and always intimating how Peggy got away with it. I kind of think the scene with Don in the hospital may have been an halucination, but Peggy thinks it really happened.
This was a great episode!
I like the way Mad Men eases so smoothly into the flashbacks to fill in the gaps in the story. It all comes together naturally. One moment we're watching Peggy in the present and the next we see her a year or so ago in a hospital bed after she had her baby. I was wondering why Don phoned Peggy of all people to bail him out of jail. At first when I saw the legs walking in I thought it was going to be Joan. I thought how strange to choose Peggy. But then the flashback answered that puzzel when we learned that Don is in on Peggy's secret. Of course it wasn't entirely clear wheather Don believed the TB story, but I don't think he did. No wonder Peggy was so eager to serve him. Brilliant writing.
Cheryl, Don clearly was being sarcastic with the TB remark - he knew she was in a mental institution and that she would be kept there until she gave in to whatever it was her family wanted. I think that scene happened within a few weeks after the birth and the remainder of the year was spent with Peggy recovering her mental and physical state after being kept drugged for God-knows-how-long. I don't think he would have bothered to come looking for her after a full year had gone by - girls, even the smart ones, weren't valued that much back then. Don't forget, he had lost Rachael, Roger had crashed, Pete knows his secret and Betty is more and more over the edge - he needed a stable person in his life, but sooner, not later.
One thing about Peggy's baby vs. the baby at the Olson's. The baby at the Olson's is BLOND. Neither Anita nor Peggy are blonde. Anita's husband is not blond. Neither Pete nor Don are blonde. So where could the blond hair come from? How about the old boyfriend who's a Utz potato chip delivery man?
Okay, some blond kids end up with dark hair but it's an interesting thought, isn't it?
Re Peggy and the Law/"didn't think so":
Peggy was under 21 at the time she had the baby. I'm not certain about the law at that time but she may not have been legally able to give the kid up for adoption.
I think you guys are missing the biggest point of episode 5. Don is not playing a power game with Peggy. From last season, he has had a special treatment of Peggy. He slowly gave her more responsibility as she continued to show her loyalty to him. Don does not give people an inch unless he trusts them in some respect. Don saw the drive in Peggy and promoted her before he knew anything about her secrets. Don went to some trouble to find her in the psych ward at the hospital. He knew that somebody with her kind of drive does not just stop coming to work one day. At the hospital, he asked her pin point questions, “Why are you here, what is wrong with you”, she replies she does not know and he becomes very, very demanding, as he says, “listen to me Peggy, you have to get out of here, do whatever they say… this never happened, it will shock you how much this never happened”. To me, this is coming from a man who has been in her position. I think Don has already had his breakdown, a long time ago. He knew what it is like to be rendered a psycho and he knew that it would eat her alive if she didn’t fight back. We know some of Don’s past but not all. Before the days of anti-depressants, you had to use your will to fight a mental illness if at all possible, or else they’d have you all drugged up and rendered incompetent, etc. (Peggy said she didn’t feel like herself because of the drugs). I think Pete had been messing with Peggy’s head long before what we see in the show, and this is what led to her breakdown and her refusal to accept she was pregnant.
Also, I loved at the end where they had a slow motion of Peggy seeing Bobbie and Peggy watching Bobbie’s husband drool all over Don’s new secretary. This gave Peggy another reason to humanize the actions of Don.
Love the show, I hope they sweep the emmy's!
I can't help but be excited about a future 'wedding episode'! I'm very interested to see what sort of wedding gown Joan would choose. Sort of a superficial observation, but I felt giddy after the scene in the office when Joan comes out waving her left hand at Don - how exciting! She seems like one of the only genuinely happy characters on the show right now.
Trudy just rubs me the wrong way - she seems so spoiled and bored. She needs to get a hobby and get her mind off the baby already.
I am hungry for more of Peggy's story! It's killing me that we only get bits and pieces every episode. Oh well, keeps me coming back for more - a sign of a great show.
FAS -
They were going to Stony Brook beach community on the north shore of Long Island.
Although it may have been cliché to play an already 2y/o song, but isn't that common with particularly popular tunes?
As I remember the Sukiyaki song was played in an earlier episode in an oriental setting but the song itself wasn't real popular in USA until 1963 or so.
Hey Laurie B! I certainly hope it's not the last we've seen of Rachel Menken Katz! But practically, as far as her portrayer, Maggie Siff's new show, it may be a one shot deal. It could be scheduling or a contract deal. Who knows?
The way the scene was written, Don and Rachel are still carrying a torch! If that new show doesn't pan out for Ms. Siff. And she becomes available for season 3, MM and Co. would be remiss in not having her return regularly. She can mess Don up like no other woman! Loves me some Rachel!
There is nothing more that I can say -- the posts by JimK and oldfashioned are brilliant. I'm continually amazed at the intelligence and writing ability of the people on this blog.
I also agree with most of what bocaratonfan has to say. All I want to add here is that, for all you Rachel-lovers, she's history! I knew she would marry a nice Jewish boy and do her father proud. Now there's a sensible girl! But I really do think it was just a token cameo appearance by Maggie Siff to explain away her character. I knew that Mr. Mencken would "fire" SC after he found out that the "goy" was "schtupping" his daughter.
Now maybe I'm a little more sensitive to these things because I'm Jewish, but here are a few observations from last night:
The new girl is Jewish ("Jane Siegel"). Clearly a Jewish name. I guess SC is starting to loosen up on its hiring policies. Will she and Ken Cosgrove become an item?
Don says to Rachel, "Is Grey taking over what we started?" Grey Advertising was/is a big Jewish agency.
Bobbie says to Don "Barrett was originally Brownstein."
Joan is marrying the (formerly) Jewish doctor.
Nothing profound; just things I noticed. After all the Catholicism last week, maybe they want to give us a dose of Yiddishkeit.
Love this show! Oh yeah, I think Don knows about the baby,and I think Peggy gave the baby up for adoption which was by far more common back then. I'm starting to like Bobbie too, and she is going to mentor Peggy as well as Don. We will see a BIG makeover in Peggy's appearance quite soon.
Just to comment on what a few of you are saying:
Blonde children. My father comes from a family of brunettes. He's the only blond child. I know a guy who has jet black hair, his wife is a brunette, their child is toe-headed. Not to make a sweeping generalization about white people, but I think for the most part, white people with dark hair are capable of having blonde children out of nowhere.
I think we're all agreed that Don has, unconsciously, picked Peggy to be his protege. He just seems drawn to the cut of her jib. Also, I'm sure his dislike of Pete has a lot to do with his favoring Peggy. So now Peggy has something that Pete and the other guys will never have, Don's trust.
And in a small way, Bobbi might take Peggy under her wing some more. Or Bobbi will be itching to discover the truth behind Peggy's blind devotion to Don. Either way, this is a delicious character to follow. Its really been this actress's summer, first her small role in The Dark Knight (Gary Oldman's wife, Mrs. Gordon) and now this. A far cry from The X-Files, as Scully's sister. Good on ya!
Mm.G. I'm also hungry for more of Peggy's storyline. I did read a spoiler somewhere that said something "big" is supposed to happen between her and another character. I can't wait for that.
I don't think we'll be seeing anymore of Menken-Katz. That's the ship that sailed away. She'll be missed.
Hi Ritt! In the episode when Peggy was out on a blind date with the Wise Potato Chip truck driver, she left the table during their meal and walked out on him. She said he was insulting her occupation, he said she insulted him for being a truck driver.
I posted shortly after I watched last night. I've had fun reading everyones posts so far today.
Greg- Yes, I too thought that the transition from Pete giving a sperm sample to Roger pounding on the paddle ball was hilliarious! Roger's comment that," He wants people to wonder what he's doing in there" when Joan asked him about the noise he was making, made it even funnier.
Laurie B.- The adoption theory makes sense, b/c that's is what they did then, but what about Fr. "Mc. Hottie" Gill making a point of giving Peggy the egg and saying,"For the little one." Is he as confused as we all are? I also agree that the only way,"This never happened" for Peggy would be to give the baby up for adoption.
I don't think that we've seen the last of Rachel either. She ran off and got married because her heart was broken by Don, but you could tell she still wants him. I'm thinking her new hubbie may please her father's desire to have her matched up, but I doubt he can make her feel as hot as Don did.
Did anyone else notice which magazine Pete selected in the doctor's office? It was the one showing bondage on the cover. And then when his wife accused him of not wanting a baby, she said it was because that perhaps he would rather see "Cape Fear" for the third time. A very interesting choice by the writers who never, as other readers have noted, include throwaway lines.
You know, it's entirely possible that Peggy's baby was given to strangers for adoption - and that when Anita whined to the priest that Peggy "got away with it" she means Peggy doesn't have to keep or raise the baby, and can go back to her glamorous job as if nothing happened. No scarlet letter, no squalling kid in the tiny apartment. The tow head toddler is Anita's or the son of one of the brothers. Also, we are assuming Peggy got pregnant by someone at SC. As jamm has pointed out in prior posts, she sure didn't act like a virgin when Pete showed up and she let him spend the night. She's much slimmer now than when the show first started - maybe she was already pregnant by someone from the neighborhood. Maybe the Utz truck driver. She had a chip on her shoulder with him a mile wide.
We know the baby was born right before Thanksgiving 1960, a few weeks after the election. When Don showed up bedside, he said her Christmas present was still on her desk. How long had she been AWOL before he went to see her? A month? Also, Don might not necessarily know about the baby. She was not in the maternity ward, but the psych ward. She must have stayed out of work for at least several months to lose all that weight and no one in the office really knew how she did it - they presumed a fat farm.
I wanted to get my thoughts out for discussion maybe?
1) When Peggy first started at S.C., several people told her how Mr. Draper would want to/like to see her legs/ankles. VA VA VOOM, middle of the night, picking up the naughty Mr. Draper, those legs looked mighty fine, and not-so-sensible heels at 1 a.m.?? Who else thought it was Joan???
2) If Mom keeps telling Anita what a beautiful & wonderful girl Peggy is, why would she torture Peggy, sort of admonish her, "aren't you going to say goodnight?" if this is something painful for Peggy? Why would Mom rub it in?
3) Why would Don get so uncomfortable with Peggy calling him Don? He treated her as "one of the guys" by calling her to help him out; why so odd to have her call him Don? None of the other "men" call him Mr. Draper, do they?
Looking forward to some feedback.
Regarding Joan, just a show or 2 ago she was made fun of for her "old" age. Perhaps she felt pressured to get married?
On Peggy's baby, I first though the notion that Anita's baby died was far-fetched, but it would help explain some of her anger in the confessional booth.
And finally, some writer on this show must have a thing for S/M sex.. there have been quick references all along (beatnik girlfriend said something about it, Roger and his paddle, Don's grabbing of Bobbies in the restaurant) and of course next week's preview is quite blatant. Can't wait to see DD in action....
Ha! I just read the comment about the bondage magazine above. I didn't catch that - will have to sit closer to the TV.
Wasn't there something in the Peggy/Pete dynamic about some fantasy he had that was kind of odd but Peggy sort of got it? I can't remember that far back.
JimK: I especially enjoyed your comments. If you are not a psychiatrist, you missed your calling!
I thought this was a terrific episode. We got to see a different side of Bobbie. Although Bobbie is amoral, she is very intelligent and presages freewheeling women of the 70's and beyond. I loved the scenes with Bobbie and Peggy, and was quite touched by the kindness both women displayed toward one another. Bobbie seemed very genuine. When she's not around men (perhaps "the enemy" to her) she can let down her guard and be herself. Peggy was reserved yet I sensed a connection to another human being, which Peggy needs.
I have a question which may have been answered by another commenter: In the "Three Sundays" episode, did anyone else notice the two secretaries looking down and sneering at (what I thought was) Peggy? They were walking down the main aisle of the office on the day Peggy and the others are out in the middle working on the American presentation. It happened very fast, but they walk by and sneer. The one commenter who said the office "senses" a connection between Don and Peggy is right. It's not only her promotion, it's something more.
another comment upon further review. when peggy and bobbie are chatting while bobbie is on the couch waiting for the shiner to recede, peggy says two things that are so interesting me.
the first is when peggy says 'he's done a lot for me, he's made me a copywriter'. ok fine. but, i don't think it's a coincidence that they show the flashback of don talking to her in the hospital, saying, to paraphrase, it didn't happen let it go etc.
so i think she looks up to him not sexually, and not as a boss, but appreciates that the ultimate distant man, actually made an appearance for her, with words of wisdom in her worst moment. i don't think it was a drug illusion, i think it was real. and i love how there is no love story between the two but the most wisdom of words often happen between the two.
and the second thing is, bobbie then says the ultimate ironic statement in saying 'he's a decent man isn't he'.
and peggy's answer is so mad men and human classic: " i don't expect him to be anything other than what he is"
wow.
that's why he goes to peggy. because in his ultimate view of things, don actually doesn't see things like color or race or gender. peggy is not a female, she is an asset he can trust. he doesn't care what she looks like or who she is etc. he understands that he can call her over cosgrove or rumson or whatever. he's not political. that stuff doesn't matter to him in a time of social weirdness. a drinking buddy you'd think would be more on his mind. but no, he calls peggy. don is smart, he calls the girl instead of one of his buddies.
you don't find that interesting?
the only woman that understands him is the only woman he has no interest in. and i don't think matthew weiner would be so weak cliche as to make them have an affair, that's too amateur.
peggy- " you never expect him to be any other way than what he is".
the woman who is farthest from him is the one who understands him the most.
drama. :)
GemCat63/Gail Klein: Thanks. Not a shrink. Just love the series.
I agree with GC's observation regarding Peggy's need for direction/a role model outside of Brooklyn--she quickly outgrew Joan. Dick Whitman had many role models to choose from to create his "Don Draper" persona. Peggy needs a Bobbi. She's clearly reading business and marketing stuff--Eventually she'll need a college degree and putting her at say, NYU or City College in the 60's could be a very interesting storyline.
Don, like many children abandoned by a parent due to an early death has a tendency to seek an impossible ideal in the opposite sex--thus his initial intense pursuit of Betty because of her classic 50's grace kelly look. His desire for something bohemian with Midge and his foolish belief that Rachel was his soulmate. His misunderstanding about each woman is revealed over time. Betty is no "Angel" she's out shooting birds in the scene after he calls her that. Midge is really in love with her beatnik boyfriend Don's little more than her employer thus he leaves her his bonus, and Rachel is disgusted by his lack of moral centeredness, which she views as cowardice. She looks right through him alright--but there's little of the compassion one would hope for from a soul mate. She's not interested in living beyond good and evil. Where's the room for Jewish guilt in such a universe?
With Peggy, I think Don has the chance for something different. This might be the first woman he can really work with and see as a real person, un-idealized. And it could be a relationship built on professional respect and at least in part an honest, not sexual connection. She's the only person he knows who has committed a sin on par with his dark secret. And that might be the basis for a beautiful friendship.
We shall see.
Gail is right about Cosgrove and Jane. Freddie's zipper concert "drowned out" Ken's first play for Jane. But they'll be more I'd bet. Harry & Paul have had their "B story" rides this season, seems as if Ken is due his.
Everyone has amazing comments! And I agree that Peggy seeing Don in the hospital was real, not imagined. If you're thinking it was imagined, you're making it more complicated than it is - and a fantasy show. This is a show about social change in America - not about hatches in the middle of some island or a Battlestar searching for Earth.
I also agree strongly with everyone else that Peggy and Don's dynamic is the most honest and interesting one on the show. I was incredibly surprised and happy to see her bail him out. The same goes for when he helped her out. And I also agree with everyone else that I would like to see this partnership grow, and NOT AT ALL IN A SEXUAL/ROMANTIC WAY. Its like Rick says at the end of Casablanca, "... its the beginning of a beautiful friendship".
What an amazing contrast Peggy and Don are to all the other characters. The men, including Roger, still act like frat boys. The women are desperate for husbands. Betty is just unraveling in her own way. You know, Peggy and Don can rule the world.
And I don't think there will be a new episode this Sunday because its Labor Day weekend. Instead they are doing a marathon. Weeds is doing the same thing. Double check that. I could be wrong.
if this is a repeat i apologize but this site has been having problems. but what i want to say is a comment on the whole bobbie/don thing.
like anyone else i can't stand bobbie. but what i do find interesting is the dichotomy between her and betty.
it's easy to say well yeah don is into bobbie b/c bobbie is easy blah blah.
but after watching bobbie for a few episodes i have to say as a man the reason don keeps going back to her is that he challenges her.
men don't respond to hugs. and we also don't respond to complaining. we respond to challenges; be that right or wrong.
if you throw the stick, too often we will go fetch it regardles of how smart or successful we are.
when bobbie pulled the whole thing with dropping her coat last week in don's office, she also said something to the effect of "don't give me a reason to be bored with you".
and this week when bobbie called him all loaded, when don doth protest, she said, "i'm about to change my mind", and she hangs up on him.
of course draper shows up.
we're aggressive like that. we respond to that.
the greater point is this: it doesn't make betty wrong b/c betty should be right quite frankly. but two women, (who are total polar opposite) who are not married to don, understand don better than his wife.
(remember at the end of the 2nd episode this year when the girl comes up to him and says i'm not your waitress but i'll take care of you or something to that effect. he says no and makes it clear. that girl was easy. he says no. bobbie is a royal pain in the ass and doesn't kiss his. he says yes though. the waitress who is a sure thing, he says no. but, the girl who is a pain in the ass constantly he says yes to. go figure.
{sigh, i know most of you don't want to hear the troubles of being a man but yeah honestly we're all dopey like that} ).
that's the dichotomy between bobbie and betty and even peggy. the easy thing is to say well duh he's a man. but what it's really about is he responds to challenges, and betty doesn't challenge him though. it's not about typical hackneyed male cliche.
there's areason this is up for tons of emmies.
it's all about don, a man who is in a triangle of women, yet the women aren't so simple as being sexual. great drama, bravo people.
if this is a repeat i apologize but this site has been having problems. but what i want to say is a comment on the whole bobbie/don thing.
like anyone else i can't stand bobbie. but what i do find interesting is the dichotomy between her and betty.
it's easy to say well yeah don is into bobbie b/c bobbie is easy blah blah.
but after watching bobbie for a few episodes i have to say as a man the reason don keeps going back to her is that he challenges her.
men don't respond to hugs. and we also don't respond to complaining. we respond to challenges; be that right or wrong.
if you throw the stick, too often we will go fetch it regardles of how smart or successful we are.
when bobbie pulled the whole thing with dropping her coat last week in don's office, she also said something to the effect of "don't give me a reason to be bored with you".
and this week when bobbie called him all loaded, when don doth protest, she said, "i'm about to change my mind", and she hangs up on him.
of course draper shows up.
we're aggressive like that. we respond to that.
the greater point is this: it doesn't make betty wrong b/c betty should be right quite frankly. but two women, (who are total polar opposite) who are not married to don, understand don better than his wife.
(remember at the end of the 2nd episode this year when the girl comes up to him and says i'm not your waitress but i'll take care of you or something to that effect. he says no and makes it clear. that girl was easy. he says no. bobbie is a royal pain in the ass and doesn't kiss his. he says yes though. the waitress who is a sure thing, he says no. but, the girl who is a pain in the ass constantly he says yes to. go figure.
{sigh, i know most of you don't want to hear the troubles of being a man but yeah honestly we're all dopey like that} ).
that's the dichotomy between bobbie and betty and even peggy. the easy thing is to say well duh he's a man. but what it's really about is he responds to challenges, and betty doesn't challenge him though. it's not about typical hackneyed male cliche.
there's areason this is up for tons of emmies.
it's all about don, a man who is in a triangle of women, yet the women aren't so simple as being sexual. great drama, bravo people.
Is this too far-fetched?
Peggy had the baby (as we saw) but she killed it (the reference to the neighborhood child hitting its head & dying, Peggy wincing at the saying "Ain't that a kick in the head?") That's why she's in the mental hospital being given drugs to help her "relax & feel like talking".
Of course, everyone would assume it was an accidental death (except for Anita, who may suspect otherwise - "She does whatever she wants & gets away with it) & Peggy believes it as well (when she's advising the priest on his sermon, she tells him that if she truly knows her audience & believes what she's selling, it gives her confidence). Another would-be throw-away line from a show with no throw-away lines.
Peggy's being committed because she's overcome by grief over the death of her baby makes more sense than being committed because she gave birth & then shut down & stopped talking to anyone.
It would be a lot easier for her to forget everything that's happened & move on, as Don suggested, if her baby wasn't there for her to see every time she went to Anita's house, which makes me think that blond boy is Anita's son & that Peggy's isn't around.
Plus, it would be an even greater parallel to Dick Whitman starting over after he "killed" Don Draper.
Hey, I'm kinda liking this theory now!
That would make all the kids Anita's & explain Peggy's noticeable discomfort in having to be told to say good-night to her nieces & nephews & at having to hold the little blond boy in church ("He's the same age my baby would be...")
I don't know....maybe I just watched too much All My Children growing up.
Thoughts?
I liked last season, but i'm loving this season! It seems that knowing more about the characters kinda fills in the gaps a bit more. I actually look forward to the next episode! The writers are really good, and the actors are amazingly conveying the essence of the period. I was thrilled when an African-American woman was introduced as the "girlfriend." I truly hope that part will be expanded.
OMG, This is way out there, but I think I've figured it out. "Do it, do what they say...this never happened...it will SHOCK you how much it never happened." The doctors in the hospital want to give Peggy SHOCK TREATMENTS. And perhaps Don/Dick knows all about how SHOCKING it is that the past never happenned. Although it's coming back in pieces. Just a thought.
JimK...DonnaC...Gail Klein...great comments! ...kudos every one participating in this rational discussion...!
Off to re-watch Episode 5...Totally missed the type of magazine Pete selected in the doctor's office...and missed the S&M reference in the Episode 6 trailer...I do remember Peggy responded to Pete's fantasy scenario, though...sigh...two kindred spirits...
I'm also going to re-examine the parentage of the children in the Olsen household (compare what we know against the conclusions we've jumped to). I'm not sure I follow the thought that they are children of Peggy's brothers...(What brothers???? Wait-a-minute!???)
Does anyone else think this was a great writing segue?...Don says to Bobbie, "I don't feel a thing" (and probably rarely does), and then boom...in a split second they crash and he now will definitely feel pain, etc...however, I believe that his feeling pain from the accident is only temporary...once he recovers, he will revert to his numbed state of being...
I said in a conversation recently that the scenes have an airless quality...it's so interesting..........any comments?
This truly was the most powerful and compelling of the S2 episodes so far. At the end I just sat transfixed staring at the screen and said "wow." I have to add that a lot of the posts on here are equally wow, you are a very interesting and intelligent bunch!
A lot of posts ago, someone asked (sorry I didn't note who) about what Bobbi meant when telling Peggy to not to try to be a man. I loved this piece of advice and think that in the context of the show it may seem like she's advocating for Peggy to up her level of sex appeal. I prefer to think of it in terms of a feminist perspective in that women are at their best when they ARE women and not some caricature of a man.
Greg--well, guys can be dopey and sentimental too. Guys always wonder if the grass is greener. I think that's why Don cheats. He enjoys the challenge of trying to tame the wild. Like I said in my previous posts, he's married to someone that is the picture of domestic life (so he thinks) but he is ultimately attracted to stronger women. Rachel, Midge, Bobbie, are all strong willed self made women who don't fall into his "let's run away" trap that he sets when he really just wants to restart his life again. His character is so multi-faceted. You never know what he's going to do next. He is a alpha male that wants what he wants. I thought it was interesting when he couldn't answer Bobbie's question as to what he likes.....he couldn't say what his passion was. In the car he finally admitted that he loved foreign films but so far we know he likes to smoke, drink, and work. Like Bobbie, Don found a profession and became the person who did it.
I too thought it was interesting when Bobbie told Peggy not to try being a man, but be a woman. I'm old enough to remember the late 70's/early 80's "dress for success" uniform of black or navy blue suit , white blouse and demure scarf or bow at the neck. I wince when I see pictures of myself in that uniform.
I can't help but notice that no one has commented on my Peggy-as-homicidal-mother theory :)
After they do the flashbacks showing Peggy boiling Trudi's Pet Bunny and Don putting the heart-attack inducing powder into Roger's drink thennnnnn we'll see the flashback where Peggy secretly kills her kid and calmly gets back to copywriting for Clearasil. And after that Luke and Laura will finally escape the Ice Princess and get back to Port Charles.
And then, I kill myself.
I don't think a blood alcohol level could have come back the nite it was drawn, if it would have been drawn--likely not as long as no one was seriously injured.
Also, that was a Nassau County patch on the policeman's uniform; Stony Brook is in Suffolk--altho the accident could have happened in Nassau.
I know that's not the point of the show, but part of our enjoyment of it is how it depicts life back then.
I wish MM would show more of the advertising business and less of who is going to be screwing whom. That is available elsewhere
"By JimK on August 26, 2008 12:05 PM
... And after that Luke and Laura will finally escape the Ice Princess and get back to Port Charles."
Dear Lords of Kobol! I remember watching General Hospital when all that nonsense was going on and Demi Moore, John Stamos, and Rick Springfield were on that show! Brings back childhood memories! And the stupid password to get the computer to stop freezing Port Charles was "Ice Princess"! How effing lame was that?!
Yes, Bobbi is right in telling Peggy to not be a man, but be herself. Come on, its no secret that women can generally flirt their ways into getting men, or lesbians, to give them a break or help them out. Although my charm wasn't able to help me out of a traffic ticket recently. It also didn't help that I mumbled "c**ksucker" just as the cop stepped up to my car. I swear I didn't see him until I turned around. Got the chicken**it ticket. Had to pay the fine.
Am I the only one sensing that Betty might be finding some joy in seeing Don's shell break? No salt!
Betty liked finding something Don "needs" for her to take care of--even if it is something as small as that (his salt intake). See how quickly she was mollified about his refusal to hit Bobby when he said what he did about being hit as a kid at the end of ep4. Trying to connect with Don in one way or another remains a core issue for most of the other characters on this show.
Some of the posts are WAY out there, especially when it comes to Peggy's baby. Blond/not blond, dead/not dead, the brother/nephew/ of Anita/Anita's mother, Peggy killed him, it was stillborn, the son of one of the brothers, (?? what brothers?) etc. Ridiculous!
Thanx for speaking up, Laurie B. ....I thought it was me....lol
LaurieB: the stuff about the brother/nephews/cousins got started because a poster said Anita was raising Peggy's baby because the Ep 2 synopsis on the MadMen Episode Guide page said so.
I checked it out. Here's what it says:
"As Peggy prepares to leave her sister and mother, her sister asks, "Aren't you going to say goodnight?" Peggy briefly peeks on a blond-haired blue-eyed infant from the doorway of the bedroom he's sharing with his cousins."
Since we agree that Peggy's baby was very likely put up for adoption and you are so certain that it is "ridiculous!" to speculate just who those cousins of the baby are in that room-. What do you make of the synopsis?
I think it's meant to throw us off and that Anita and Peggy's father on the couch mentions a "Little Gerry" at one point.
But the baby can't be the brother and the cousin of the others in the room.
Just trying to work it out logically. Didn't mean to seem "ridiculous!" Would love to have you read the ep synopsis and get back to us with the un-"ridiculous!" answer.
Giving you a "knuckle bump," MMfanforever, for Rachel's welcome return!!
How could Peggy have killed her baby? The more posts I read.....this is exasperating! Follow along..... 1. Peggy was admitted to the hospital Thanksgiving weekend where she gave birth to a baby boy who was NOT stillborn because the nurse brought the baby to her and asked if she would feed it. Peggy is in total denial about being pregnant or giving birth. 2. Approx. 1 month later, Don finds her at St. Mary's where she is still in denial and is being given psychotropic drugs. 3. Peggy's mother and her sister Anita come to the hospital. Don't know exactly when that was, but Anita is visibly pregnant.
What "Brothers" are you posters referring to? The only family we know of Peggy is her mother, her sister Anita and Anita's husband on the couch. And then Anita and couch-potato have several small children. That's it!
JimK: That is not Peggy's father on the couch. It's Anita's husband!
The boys can't be cousins to Anita or Peggy's babies if they' ar their brothers. But if they are the sons of brothers we don't clearly see, or if the synopsis was written in haste it works. But if they were giving away the fact that that was Peggy's baby in the room, I think they wouldn't have been so cute about it.
Laurie: So if the baby's in with it's cousins, not brothers, who is the baby's mother?
LaurieB: Read the ep2 synopsis and get back to us. As for Peggy as baby killer, see my post above.
I think the synopsis was meant to throw us off. Just pretend there is no synopsis and just watch the show.
I agree with the poster about General Hospital. Is that what Mad Men is about? Who's pregnant? Did she kill her baby?
I, for one, don't give a shit.
The point of the show how the characters develop during times that were--or are about to be--a-changing.
If it looses that perspective--and from these posts it is about to--what's the point?
Very zen.
Question for the guys out there. What do you think of Joan's figure? Do you think she's gotten fatter this season? Do you think her ass is huge? Just wanting a male opinion on this.
Greg: Thanks for weighing in on the male perspective of all this. We women tend to think you guys have all the confidence and all the answers.
GailKlein: Where's Allison? I thought she and Ken Cosgrove would get together. But I can see Ken with Jane now too. She's very pretty.
Visan: Let's hope Maggie Siff's new show gets cancelled :)
Doggone it, that was me about a "Baby Killing Peggy" being like General Hospital. Yet the synopsis did bother me. Probably some evil intern wrote it to mess with our heads.
Laurie B. I agree with you, sister, some of these theories are waaaay out there: Peggy imagined Don at the hospital, Peggy killed her child, Peggy created the question mark.
I think the thing speaks for itself and not much more than that.
As for Peggy's family, if someone creative out there could draw up a family tree ... ? I've read so many posts on the matter, I now think I'm Peggy's cousin twice removed!
As for the baby killer thing ... Peggy didn't want to bother touching the baby at all. How would she have the time to go and kill it and wouldn't she have been found out if she killed the child? I'm of the impression that the blond kid her family is constantly thrusting at her IS her baby. It seems simple to me.
Laurie B.: It's so selfish but I hope Maggie Siff's show gets cancelled too! We are soooo bad! :P
Laurie B-- good catch on Joan's ass-hugeness.
Perhaps her girdle has reached it's 19th hour.
Perhaps she's hiding Peggy's baby in there.
Thanx, JimK for piping in, and sorry Laurie B. if I dragged you into my query...
JimK....Yes, the man lying on the couch is Anita's husband, Gerry. One of the two boys (seen at church in brown suits sitting side by side) is named "Little Gerry." Concluding the children are cousins, we can make attemps to identify their mothers. This is where nothing is set in concrete. We don't know where the babies are for Anita or Peggy.
My problem is assuming Anita's birth mother is the same as Peggy's. I have recently completed a lot of genealogy, and cannot tell you how often the older sister has raised a child as her own and went through life as a 'widow' with her own illegitimate child. Peggy certainly is doted on as if she were an only child birthed later in life.
All will be revealed...I plan to keep watching...
Greytone: very wise counsel.
I stand corrected regarding the man on the couch.
Back to Joan though--could she be smuggling typewriters out of the office in her girdle and trying frame Paul for it in order to get even with him for publicizing her age at the office?
God she's devious.
The baby killer theory was a tongue-in-cheek theory. I think JimK is probably right that her baby is really in Joan's dress.
The baby killer theory was a tongue-in-cheek theory. I think JimK is probably right that her baby is really in Joan's dress.
The baby killer theory was a tongue-in-cheek theory. I think JimK is probably right that her baby is really in Joan's dress.
The baby killer theory was a tongue-in-cheek theory. I think JimK is probably right that her baby is really in Joan's dress.
Re: Joan's Ass: Oh nooo, don't tell me we have another subtly disguised pregnacy a la Peggy's from last year and that Joan already has a bun in the oven and that's why she's now engaged....kidding, but, honestly, she seems more enthralled with the ring than her husband-to-be. Something tells me this marriage might not come off...we'll have to see.
If you'd like to join, we'd love to have you:
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RE: Joan - her ass does look bigger this year. Haven't quite figured out what they did, but her dresses are not as flattering and sexy this year. Looks like they're practically putting a tunic on her to cover from the neck to below the knees. The clothes look tight (but not in a good way), restrictive, and like she's got one big corset on her body and her psyche. I think Joan looks "matronly" this year - don't ask me how they did it, but she does to me.
Does Don seem clumsy/accident prone? Well, if the bondage previews with Bobbie are to come, hope he doesn't have an autoerotic accident via Adam's way out. Hope it's a fun S&M interlude! Think Don is getting pretty desperate emotionally, and really flailing around. Don doesn't seem to have come up with any workable solutions for his work, his marriage or his past so far. Can't imagine what he's going to do next, myself.
ooooh I like reading all the comments no matter how wacky they are ,,, bring it on
I think Joan's figure is entirely weird. And her clothes are two sizes too small. When you see her in profile, she looks dumpy, not voluptuous. As my dad used to say,"Looks like ten pounds of fertilizer in a five pound sack".
Re the new girl leaving her top two buttons open- I think it's funny how all the males reacted. Today they would probably not even notice because nothing is left to the imagination anywhere. It kind of reminds me of old stories where the Victorian gentlemen got all flustered when they saw a lady's ankle showing.
Gail Klein -- thanks for the kind words! Love your posts, too.
Laurie B: Joan still does it for me, even if she's put on a few. When she wore that black dress the night her roommate professed her love to her...what was Roger's line to her about 'roaming those hillsides?' Yep. To respond even further to your point, I think it's a pity that our pop culture doesn't serve up voluptuous women like Joan (Marilyn types) as much -- women's magazines are particularly bad with this. Most of the women on the covers are bone-ass skinny, and that's what women are selling to each other? WTF? At least the lad mags have women with curves, even if too many of them are artifically enhanced. Skinny women are great, too, but it seems like that all we serve up today -- for every Audrey Hepburn, you need a Janet Leigh.
As to the whereabouts of Peggy's baby, I remain confused but am reminded of Bertram Cooper's line, 'Who cares?' I am sure it will be revealed - this season, I'm guessing -- but his exact whereabouts (mom's house, adoption, cemetery, Joan's girdle) is less important to me than other questions: When, if ever, does Pete Campbell (or Trudy) find out? Does Don know it's Pete's, or will he find out?
On a separate note, has anyone bought the DVD and listened to the commentary on episodes? Good stuff -- Weiner is great, and the commentary with Jon Hamm and Roger Slattery together is a pisser. Slattery in particular is hysterical. I've only listened to a few, but one thing jumped out: Elizabeth Moss (I think) was saying that there was a rumor on set that Weiner planned to kill off a character in Season One -- something about accidentally/purposefully falling out the window like the opening credits, and it was rumored to be Harry, but Weiner changed his mind. Anyone else catch that? I'm pleased they didn't off Harry, as I love that guy. I actually hope they refrain from killing off characters too much unless it makes sense -- for instance, I'd be sad to see Bertram go, but there's a logic to it. Don't kill Harry, Peggy, Pete, etc.
One last thing: does anyone else find it hysterical that Don's response to everything personal is 'What do you want me to say?' He offers some variant on that question constantly, to everyone, whenever something awkward comes up. He's so impotent in his personal interactions. He needs help; Hamm plays that guy's internal anguish beautifully. Somebody, I think Dry Manhattan, suggested that advertising is therapy for Don. Nice thought.
@oldfashioned & Dry Manhattan: I think advertising WAS Don's therapy, philosphy, life structure, but I think it's failing him big time now. All the stuff he "bought" about advertising is coming up empty now (advertising sells you happiness - if you own what is advertised you'll be happy).
The Season 1 dvd commentaries are really great, aren't they?
Hello everyone:
Random thoughts:
Was it just me, or did Don's new secretary look like Roger's call girl?
I think Anita is Peggy's Mother - I think someone else had posted that long ago. It was not unheard of (Bobby Darin, Jack Nicholson both later learned their "sisters" were their mothers). Anita is angry b/c Peggy has made the same mistake she did.
Thoughts?
Flowerpower is right. I'm not sure if it was the camera angles but Joan's body looked totally distorted in Episode 5-like a cartoon caricature of the curvaceous broad of that era, and a hard-edged brothel madam. Up to then, she seemed a bit too buxom and sexy for that office but nonetheless eye candy for male executives. Jane seems much for refined and suited for the S & C office.
Hello everybody! I'm on the floor, hysterical, over all the banter about Peggy's baby. "Who gives a shit?. . . it's in Joan's girdle . . . Peggy threw him out the window ". . etc., etc. etc. C'mon, people, let's just watch and enjoy the show! All will be revealed in good time.
Laurie B: Allison? Ken just wanted to see her panties. Jane has really caught his eye. In case you didn't read my post from yesterday, she's Jewish. This is going to open up some interesting chat about Jews vs. Gentiles, inter-dating, intermarriage, etc.
And yes, I've noticed Joan's put on a lot of weight. On another thread, I wrote that Joan is starting to realize what happens to girls after they've been in New York for a few years. She's over 30, been around the block a few times, and is starting to feel the passage of time. We don't yet know if her feelings for the doctor are sincere, but she probably feels that it's time for her to settle down. However, I do sense some jealousy on her part over "the new girl." Jane is 10 years younger, pretty, and usurping her position as office sexpot.
I don't think she's pregnant; just getting older. Remember, this was before people "worked out" in gyms, did Pilates and yoga, ran, etc. Exercise was not the high priority in people's lives that it is now.
And now that she has a steady relationship and is engaged to be married, she may not feel the need to be sexy all the time. She may be settling into middle-aged complacency. Roger has noticed it, too.
On the other hand, maybe she's eating too much because of the crappy sex she's having!
We'll see.
P.S. Who wants to have a MM convention in New York? Maybe we could do a MM "walking tour" of the city!
Gail Klein:
I do! Is airfare on you? ;-)
Wouldn't that be fun? If I sell my house I'll be there!
First time, please be patient.....I think that the baby was put up for adoption because Peg was an unwed Mother and when the nurse showed it to her, Peg rejected the baby. I think that the writers are setting it up so that Pete ends up adopting his own child! Don called Peg because he respects her and values her descretion. Don needs a confidant. He will not be able to keep up with the web of lies that he weaves without someone to back him up. When did Joan get a "boyfriend"? I think that she is pretending to draw attention back to herself. She is feeling her age (30ish) and is embarrassed to be alone.
Oh yeah jamm54 - There is no doubt Don is clumsy and accident prone.
Blood pressure meds, Phenobarb and all that booze straight from the bottle. Just before the crash Bobbi made some remark about how great she was feeling. Dons response was "I don't feel anything", he closed his eyes, and that was it.
He was forced to tell Betty about his High BP meds. If he complains when she withholds salt what will he do when she starts rationing the liquor. I have not noticed if he is still drinking at the office.
Geeeze! Listen to yourselves! Sure I noticed Joan looked a little curvier in that blue dress get up when she was talking to Rodger about her engagement, but I don't think we all need to "weigh" in on it. And we wonder why women have such bad self images. We might as well still be in 1960 ourselves! Joan still has it goin' on and I don't think we should slam her for a few pounds.
Let's keep the conversation on plot and character development.
So back to plot and characters..
Seriously doubt there was any baby killing, either accidental or otherwise. Think the best way to walk away from an unplanned pregnancy in 1960 was adoption, but the state had to wait for her consent. That's why Don probably said,"Do what ever they tell you and get out of here."
They probably were waiting for her to show signs of getting it together so that she was considered in her right mind to sign consent for adoption.
Peggy takes the advice of Don and is "amazing herself at how much she can forget about it." (all w/ Don's help of course) Now she's getting pointers from Bobbi that again she is "amazing" even Don with. The look on his face when she called him Don...Priceless!
Oh, and Gary's insights on Don's attractions to certain women and why. Interesting... But I'm not sure he doesn't see Betty as a different kind of challenge as well. He has a whole good suburban successful husband/father role to play w/her that is indeed a challenge. It's totally contrary to who he was in his past. He couldn't have a woman like Betty if he were Dick Whittman still. She's a privleged society girl. She is still a trophy he has to keep polished in order to keep his persona as Don Draper up.
I also think as far as Betty goes, she does adore and care for him. I don't think the w/holding salt was controlling, it was her way of saying she cares. She doen't want to believe that he is unfaithful, even if she has her suspisions. I think the truth would kill her. She is fragile, but still willing to fight for her man if she has to. I think she tries very hard to connect w/him and bring him in on their family life. She may be a little shallow and disconnected, but I still think she has hooks on him.
Greg
I got it, I cracked up too
NG
Swanky K: I personally love Joan, think she's one of the most "real" characters on the show--and that includes her wonderful, voluptuous figure. Can't speak for the other posters of course, but if there's one thing I've learned from watching Season 1 and Season 2 thus far, it's that nothing on MM is a throw-away, and that includes the character's appearances and wardrobes. If we notice changes in Joan's figure, it's because we have at least one precedent last year with Peggy's figure changes, which, btw were very subtly done over time. People kept trying to figure out for weeks if she was pregnant, which indeed it turned out, she was.
I think sometimes, we get so involved in the characters' personal dramas, that we forget that Weiner is also placing them in a broad social and chronological continuum and using them to give us a picture of the era and the changes that are happening. Fashion and body types are often dismissed as superficial and "frivolous" (especially in this puritanical country) but like so many other things in popular culture they have a language all their own that tells us a whole lot about the society in which they're worn. For example, we're starting to see Betty in pants a lot more this season, don't know if the "Dick Van Dyke " show was on the air yet or not in '62, (think it was), but Mary Tyler Moore caused a sensation by frequently wearing slacks then, which women still didn't routinely wear.
To get back to Joan, as other posters have said, she is indeed looking a little more matronly, especially in comparison to the "new girl." She's now showing up in prim blouses with bows, something we haven't seen her do before Certainly, it is the passage of time, and not working out the way people do (or say they do) now, but there's also a societal thing going on here: Joan's vava-voom body type is on the way out, like another "old girl" mentioned on the epi, Marilyn Monroe (who literally would be dead before the year was out). I think that kind of body type was associated with the huge emphasis on procreation and the post-war abundance of the fifties and that as the times changed and things started to get less structured it was also reflected in the fashions that followed. With a huge baby boom generation (who wouldn't have to worry about spreading figures and working out until much later, fashions (and the body type that became favored) inevitably changed. Goodbye "foundation garments", hats, white gloves, hello , minis,hip-huggers, levis, and patchouli oil!
Loved, loved this last episode. To all the doubting-Thomases and Thomasinas out there I Season 2 reached critical mass with this one, and the pieces are beginning to come together. So many great moments, too many to mention. The flashback with Don and Peggy in the hospital was just brilliant. Am really enjoying reading the posts as well, so many intelligent folks out there as well as those with very lively imaginations :-) JimK your analyses are spot-on, wish I could express the psycho-sociological undercurrents as succinctly. Look forward to reading more.
I said it before ... part of Mad Men's success was due to the fact they had one of their lead characters (Joan) as a gorgeous voluptuous woman who is not a size "0" and after all the emmy nods the makers of this show likely increased her size ... either by telling the actress to gain weight or put more padding on her and I will also repeat I hope this concept takes off
imagine ... tv shows and movies with regular weight people
really she is not fat but we are so used to seeing anorexics on the screen and in the fashion magazines and I bet if we saw the actress christina hendricks in person she is likely a regular looking person
I can't wait for Oprah to have the entire cast on her show and also ....
Saturday Night Live will do skits for sure and perhaps Christina will be the host
Laurie, Got your prediction. I think you're about right. Joan's ass has definitely grown. I'm not into the baby's got back BS, guess I'm just too German to understand the concept, to me that just means the chick's a fat ass. Joan's not moving the Peter Meter into the red numbers this year the way that she use to. Joan, and damn near everybody else, doesn't have her MOJO going which basically is my complaint about all of the characters this season. Where's the swagger? Every character seems to be on downers and suicide watch. There are no highs and lows, just lows and lower lows. I want some triumphs to go along with the lows. I'm certain that this is why the ratings are down. If I were a new viewer I'd have blown this off after the second episode. Who needs the depression?
Maggie can't be that busy with her other show, hey Slattery does it and Roger's got heart trouble. Maggie's just going to have to suck it up and make the sacrifice necessary to bang Jon Hamm. I'm sure Visan (and most women) would work the overtime needed to get that job done.
Dennis, you may be onto something about lower ratings! I've read many comments on various boards that say the "down trodden" characters turned off viewers and they tuned out. Some even said TV was their escape from stressed and didn't want to watch a bunch whiny rich folks! LOL!
Also, Dennis, you know me so well! I'd indeed work OT, triple OT even, to bone that fine piece of man-meat Jon Hamm! :P
I dont believe Don would have gone with Bobbie to the shore (and swigged out of a bottle of booze on the way) If he hadnt just found out that Rachael was married. He was REELING from that run in.
And when he told Bobbie he didnt feel anything he was stuffing all his sadness over Rachael.
will peggy call him "don" in front of colleagues?
Mimi...he might have been inviting Bobbi to make him feel again....
Remember when she told him it didn't feel like he didn't want to do what she was offering him in the car? In his office, in spite of his protests, she threw her coat on the floor and found a way not to let him bore her. At their dinner together, she had told him how she next wanted to have him (lying on the sand listening to the ocean). In the car she told him she felt 'so good' and he told her he didn't feel a thing (note the smirk on his face)...and she promptly slid over and he succumbed to the ecstacy.
Don likes how Bobbi is in touch with her feelings and is showing him how out-of-touch he is with his own. She takes charge....different from Betty who just wants Don to tell her what to do (in the bedroom).
I agree that he was shocked to see Rachael, but I don't think he decided to go with Bobbi because of it. Bobbi had control of their evening from the moment he walked into Sardi's....
I'm with Mimi. He is devastated about Rachel.
When Bobbie was teasing him that he didn't even know what he liked, didn't he say something like "It's huge." ??? I can only hope he was referring to his tool. :) OK, sorry, I couldn't resist that remark.
I'm joining the choir with Laurie and Mimi! Our boy Don was devastated to see the Ravishing Rachel with that dud of a husband!
Frankly, it had nothing to do with Rachel being married, IMO. (Evidently, Don's not one to care about the marital status of the women he takes to bed!) Just that she saw him out with his latest, er, conquest.
Madly obsessed, I don't think Bobbie was suggesting that Peggy use sex to succeed, but to use being a woman in a way that differentiates her from the pack. In those days, a smart, successful woman was sexy in a way that had little to do with whether she actually had sex with anyone - it was strange and therefore, compelling, for a desireable woman to also be capable doing "man's work". I actually knew male executives who prided themselves in having an attractive assistant who was "theirs" - the office lounge lizards would hang around and get nowhere because the woman had an almost mystical power, being both female and smart. Remember the line in Season 1 when Peggy did something well and one of the guys said it was fascinating, like watching a monkey play a (musical instrument)?
Someone noted elsewhere that Don and Rachel are over - get over it. Yes, that affair is over - doesn't mean that Don's over it at all.
The "Meditations in an Emergency" book from the first episode (Valentine's Day) which he was mailing - it was to Rachel, no one else. Rachel was still very much on his mind a year and a half later (from Nov 1960 to Feb 1962)!
Now it's a few months later (April 1962, maybe?), and Don runs into Rachel, and she's married? Also, Rachel sees that Don's up to his usual - wining, dining, probably bedding another female client? Yeah, he feels bad. Not only has he lost her, but he hasn't changed at all, and Rachel got to see that. More self-loathing!
@Dana, the drinking at the office has toned down, but Don's hitting the bottle pretty good straight in the door before he sits down. Even the housekeeper noticed it a couple episodes ago. Both Betty and Don seem to be hitting the sauce more than they did, when at home.
As for Joan's wedding - it's going to be a fiasco, I think. Joan is so hooked on the traditional schedule (out of high school, work, find a man, marry, produce babies), it hasn't even occurred to Joan to question if that's what SHE would be happy with.
Joan was happiest screwing Roger, and meeting in hotel rooms on the sly, and swiveling all around the office garnering looks of appreciation. Does anyone really think Joan is maternal? I don't. Too bad Joan doesn't realize that now.
What happened to Joan's lesbian roommate?
Gail Klein: So Jane Siegel is Jewish. Did they say that or should we assume because of her name? Was that pretty reliable back then? Because as you know my last name is tres' Jewish and yet I am a Catholic school veteran of the '60s.
She's very pretty and I think you're right that she'll be in some interesting storylines. Harry Crane - is that a Jewish name?
Prediction: Last episode of the season is Joan's wedding, where, of course, some disaster happens. Like.... her betrothed will be related to Rachel Mencken somehow??? And she'll be at the wedding? And she and Don will... OMG I hope so!
A comment on the Don/Peggy relationship - I definitely don't think it's sexual. Don sees in Peggy someone who can take action and solve a problem; perhaps he gained more respect for her after she got out of the mental hospital, gave up the baby for adoption?, came back to work and did a great job as if "it never happened."
When Betty berates Don for not calling her the night of the car accident, Don says, "Solving a problem Bets, I needed a clear head. You can't get all hysterical." He views Betty as a little girl who gets hysterical, loses control of her hands and crashes her car and needs to see a psychiatrist. He called Peggy because he knew she could be trusted to keep her cool and also keep the accident (and affair) a secret.
Side action on Mad Men....It's really weird but I hated Pete and Peggy. He's so un-sexy to me. Roger with twins, hookers and Joan skeeves me out despite his being a Silver Fox. Harry and Hildy was just ridiculous! But if Don doesn't have some hot piece on the side, I find the show unenjoyable to watch! I prayed he strayed! LOL!
Hey bluegg, just wanted to tell you that I noticed everyone was in all shades of blue, too, last episode. That was no accident, either, in costuming. Was it just Joan, Peggy, Jane? Wonder what that meant - it was weird!
Visan: Pete and Peggy are both the most un-sexy people in the show. I think Harry Crane's sexier than Peggy. I think Dale the snoozer is sexier than Peggy. Freddy Rumsen's zipper is sexier than Peggy.
Laurie: LOL!!!!
I know not every character can be sexy but Pete is just, ewwww! The voice, the suits that look 3 sizes too big for him, and his teeth bug! Maybe if Peggs would stop wearing that ridiculous preteen ponytail and irksome bangs, she'd be at somewhat cute!
Well, at least there's Don Draper to look at and listen to! Hell, his voice and jawline make the damn show! *Ha!*
Thanks for the reply GA COAST
I just wasn't certain because it was coming from Bobbie. I had wondered if she was giving her advice as Joan had, but it makes a lot of sense. I wonder how this is going to work out for Peggy.
I had expected her to look more stylish in season 2 because the promo pics had her looking very feminine with pearls, earrings, a nice dress. When the season opened it was the same ol Peggy. Maybe it's a look ahead.
"Freddy Rumsen's zipper is sexier than Peggy."
I laughed so hard I couldn't breathe.
jamm54: Yes, I noticed Carla, the housekeeper eyeing how much Don was drinking. She wouldn't let him drive her to the station. She didn't want to get into a car with that lush behind the wheel. Doesn't she remind you of Lana Turner's black housekeeper in "Imitation of Life?"
LaurieB: Well, I am assuming that she's Jewish, of course. Why would they give her a name like Siegel unless they were going to explore the Jewish theme?
No...the two housekeepers look nothing alike.
The child who died (in Peggy's conversation with Bobbie) is the son of the woman in ep 4 with the bundt cake for Fr Gill - she's either Mrs Casey or Mrs O'Neill.
bildunginhollywood:
I don't think that just because of Fr. Gill messing up and thinking the woman in ep4 with the bundt was visiting her son somewhere rather than the cemetery means necessarily that was the child Peggy was talking about.
In fact, I very much hope not.
I think the power and the importance of peggy's comment to bobbi about the child who was stuck in the head and died is that it highlighted her anguish, buried, but always present, about the child out there somewhere she gave up for adoption.
When kids about that age are in the news because they've suffered injury or death she will wonder and she will suffer.
It is not the child of the woman in ep4 for this reason. The death haunts Peggy because she didn't know the child in question. If she knew it was the neighbor's kid, she would know it wasn't possibly hers.
This is why again ANITA IS NOT RAISING PEGGY'S BABY.
And that IS a big deal for this character. It isn't a minor plot point.
If Peggy can visit her kid anytime, if the kid is in the house with her family and she see him grow up then the kind of broad anguish, the never-ending anxiety the troubling, profound questions about the choice she made doesn't exist--and then she can not be a true peer to Don that I think the writers want to grow her into being.
Don failed in the masculine arena--under fire he stole the dog tags of a dead fellow soldier to escape the army. The decision at that moment made complete sense in his near-mad state. But it changed his life forever and set him on a course for a life very different than the one his "family" Whitmans led (poor farmers).
Peggy failed in the feminine arena—she rejected her baby--not just rejected by giving up but by denying she'd even had the baby. Her state made sense in her near-made state. She had sex before marriage with a married man and got pregnant. She failed her family, church and the test of a moral woman in that puritanical culture. The result of her decision not to raise that baby keeps her on and accelerates the course of her life away from her family (Outer boro working class catholics).
And Don helps her do this. Like the army was for him, he is her enabler. As her boss he can cover for her the way the army mistakenly covered for Dick Whitman's decision to desert.
If her baby is being raised by her bitter, angry envious sister who uses the sacrament of confession to disparage Peggy, surely she wouldn't be shocked by Fr. Gill's egg comment: "For the little one."
Because if that baby was in Anita's house the neighbors would KNOW. Fr. Gill's line has power because it is a sudden, terrible reminder to Peggy of the vulnerability she must live with. She'd nod her head ruefully if the baby was living at her sisters. She looks shocked because she doesn't expect that the priest would know. That her sister would, out of spite and envy, and to damage her reputation with this respected figure in her neighborhood, comes as shock because she believed that by giving the baby up for adoption she has done what Don has told her to do--to move on. But people like her sister and Don's brother, out of their own needs want to keep the terrible truths alive.
Just as Don needs his half brother to get out of town, Peggy needs to get out of that neighborhood, that church and that family --to separate and keep space between her self and her terrible choice and those who would expose her.
Both of them naively ran to something in the hope of escaping their narrow existences. Don to the army, Peggy to arms of an old-monied Ivy Leaguer. Each failed them both in short order, but did grievous harm to them and drove them into decisions that have made it impossible for either of them to be truly honest or truly at ease.
If Peggy and Don are fated by Weiner & Co. to develop some kind of deep friendship/professional alliance, they will be drawn together because at core they are both haunted by their past-- because they can not escape their mistakes by running and because they have very few other people to turn to in their lives who they can engage with truthfully.
For them, the 60's will be a relief. For others like Roger and Joan it will be waterloo.
Peggy hasn't learned Don's darkest secret, but if she does, she will not turn on him because of it. She cares about him too much. She has shown she can keep secrets that she carries her own secrets with Draper-like control and that makes her a possible place to turn for him. Look how she answers Bobbi's questions. Not as deftly as Don yet, but still with determination not to give up very much to anyone.
Don and Peggy fear they will pay for their desertions--somewhere, someday. And that makes them unique on this show. Think Roger is haunted about Mona finding out about his secrets? I don't think so.
Remember when Pete confronted Don about who he really was and Don picked up the phone and then put it down because he had no one he could call for help?
Peggy is not even close to being that person yet. But she just might be there one day. Not necessarily in bed but in some kind of relationship.
He knows Peggy's profound secret. I think Pete will reveal Don's to her --probably drunk, out of envy. But their secret--the baby-- will come to be known by Don.
I know many think Don is just a selfish amoral monster who looks hot in a grey flannel suit. I think that's selling the character --and the writers who created him-- short.
He has lived in reaction to that fateful, hysterical choice in Korea for a dozen years. And in all that time, he has found no refuge. Proper Betty never heard the story of his life he finally revealed to Rachel in the wake of Roger's heart attack. Only in a moment of real existential terror and mistaken belief that he had a real soul-mate in Rachel does he let us know his origin story.
These two believe in their darkest thoughts that they are deserters. If they are to heal and stop running, they will need someone who has sinned as grievously to tell them they are not alone and are worthy of being forgiven.
That doesn't require sex.
Harry compared Don to Batman, in season one. Like that twisted playboy who created a new identity to cope with a horror he couldn't face, Emotionally, Don needs an ally, one who knows his secret identity in order to help him function.
His "clumsiness" seems to be fueled by thoughts of his past. His sexual recklessness by pain and lonliness. And his drinking is getting worse. Somehow he needs to relieve the guilt and fear that is clearly affecting him if he is to go on functioning.
Batman had Robin. Don might just have Peggy one day.
I will agree that it felt like work watching the first four espisodes of season 2, There were a little interesting points, Peggy meeting Father Gill, etc but on the most part I was getting bored with it, and disapointed, especially after the season finale and then jumping two years later. The New Girl episode has brought back that feeling the first season did and I know most questions will be answered her on out. After reading some of the posts and then watching this episode again, I am astonished where some of the idea, suggestions and assumptions are coming from. Some are fantastic and some are out of this world. I suggest watching the show as a part of history unfolding, thinking about what that generation went through, even our parents and grandparents. My mom won't watch it because when she did it brought up to many memories for her, some not so good. She said I lived it, I don't wish to remember what offices were like for some women and choices that were made or even made for us. It was a time of war and peace and change and women's struggles, not to mention the issues with race and culture. Look how far we have come, and this show is a great reminder of what we had to do to get there. Even though I am not from that generation, it has brought me to wonder what it was like for my parents. I can see my mom in an office like that and I can see my dad doing all the major dept store layouts all over the country. What it was like for them both.A lot of time, investigation and commitment went into creating this show. Remember when Matt Wiener said some like, the fruit on the table was to big for that time, or the crew raided their parents house for props, it is well done and as close to history as we can get, even the dialect is as accurate as can be.
The issue about Peggy's baby - from what I understand women who gave birth out of wedlock back then didn't have a choice to keep it, it was adopted out. It's not Don's baby, come on...the writers wouldn't do something so soap operaish. Don was there as a concerned boss - haven't you ever had a boss that surprised you by there thoughtfullness and help you out. That's why he was there - his past experience tells him something big happened with Peggy and he's gone through it, afterall, he is protecting his name or covering it up at least isn't he, he started a new life by forgetting and it will shock you how easy it is to forget.
Joan - I believe she is getting married and "I am coming back" is just that, she is coming back to the office not Roger, she said she was faithful to whom ever she was with. She is also has power - she controls the entire office, even Roger. The only one I haven't seen much interaction with is Don. Maybe she is just lonely, as it can be lonely having some power.
Pete & Trudy - Even with the mention of mumps when Pete was 11 or 12 I still think he is the father. No wife would go the length she did and agrue with her husband about a baby and keep it a lie about where Pete was verile or not. Pete is just not ready to be a father. I think Trudy is a little to Fru Fru anyway for the character.
Betty - Ok so I guess she is all better now, after finding out last season her husband kept tabs on her counselling. It's wierd, this season at the beginning she was showing some independance and strength and now she is back to her little dotting house wife.
Regardless of which way and what will happen to the characters, this is a great show and these stories come from somewhere, we are recreating and past to create a future.
I just want hot sex and some great advertising pitches. You must be the psychiatrist that's working on Betty. It’s a frickin’ TV show which last season was actually entertaining television before all of the characters became sullen psychopaths.
Give me Roger humping Joan over this crap any day.
Okay. I take it all back. Have Roger humping Joan.
You stay classy Dennis.
JimK:
You rock! Love your posts -- you could teach a course on MM at The New School.
the character pete reminds me of peewee hernan
JimK,
"For them, the 60's will be a relief. For others like Roger and Joan it will be waterloo."
Great line, and nice analysis once again. I agree that Don is a very sympathetic character; he is constantly anguished. It's funny that he pegs advertising as selling 'happiness,' and he asks Roger why would anybody not be happy with all this. But Don more than anyone seems afflicted by anhedonia -- the inability to experience pleasure, an incapacity for happiness. Wonder if Teddy the Greek boss ever told him about anhedonia.
Your line of thinking on Peggy and adoption is spot on, too. That line about the baby who died really resonates in light of your analysis.
Re: Waterloo in the '60s, I've wondered about who from this show is going to make it out of the decade in better shape. There was a somewhat obscure movie called 'The Wanderers' and there's a scene where the leather-clad greaser goes into a bar to find the college girl he's pursuing and he sees Bob Dylan singing 'The Times They Are A-Changin.'' And in an instant, the guy is an anachronism -- time is leaving him behind. Really nice touch. I agree that the 60s are a relief for Peggy (she'll be very successful), and that Roger and Joan and the archtypes they represent are history. I'm not sure about Don. I think Don is an entirely sympathetic character despite his behaviors, but he is a closed book. The late 60s and all the 'openness' it brought, dubious though much of it have been ultimately, won't suit him. I think he's comfortable in his hypocrisies, as much as one can be anyway. Plus, he's a man who is invited to all the clubs, but doesn't fit in anywhere. Lonely soul, that guy is.
JimK: Geez, maybe you should take those 23 paragraphs and submit for publication somewhere. All brilliant commentary, but I'm not sure I want to be inside the head of every character on the show. I like letting it all roll out according to Mr. Wiener's master plan, whatever that is, and enjoying it as it happens, LOL moments and shocks along the way. It's a brilliant masterpiece and too much analysis will kill my enjoyment of this rich tapestry of characters.
Here it is!! Attention Deficit Theater - Episode 5.
http://www.unboundedition.com/content/view/7728/50/
Gail Kein/Old Fashioned: I agree with you.
LaurieB: I disagree with you.
"Inspired by Attention Deficit Theater"
Presents:
Ep5: "The New Girl"
Pete: "That's great news. Wow, with swimmers like mine it would be pretty stupid to boink a sexually naive secretary from Brooklyn on my office couch without protection, huh?"
Trudi: "Daddy, buy me new ovaries!"
Don: "If you're calling to ask to blow me in my office again, I'm afraid my revulsion outweighs my desire to keep you at bay right now."
Bobbi: "That's not the kind of meat I'm in the mood for, sailor. Just get over to Sardi's. C'mon, It's not like you're going to be caught obviously catting around by your lost soul mate with her nice jewish boy husband on her arm propelling you into an even deeper sub-basement of shame that will result in your usual flight toward reckless sex combined most unfortunately with your emotional strain-generated clumsiness. Right?"
Don: Okay.Okay, Okay ..
CRASH!
Joan: "Someday I'm going to wish the CIA, with Peter Lawford's help, killed me in 1962 like they will Marilyn Monroe. The way I'm declining, by the mid-1970's I'm going to look like Shelly Winters."
Roger: "Sweet Jesus, Joanie, you didn't have to take what you said to me about the '61 models having bigger tail fins quite so much to heart!
Joan: (turning sideways to fit through double doors) "So long Roger, too bad I didn't at least have sex with the one person who probably could have brought me to orgasm before I settle down with this dull as dishwater doctor. Yup, my lesbian room mate."
Roger: "Uh, Joanie, could you be a love and ask Jane Siegel to come in here to take some dictation?"
Jane Siegel: Hi, I'm Jane. And these, these are my breasts.
Ken Cosgrove: I'd like to guess the color of your ....
Freddie Rumson: I'm too sexy for my pants. Too sexy for my high, high, high waisted grey pants!"
Peggy: "Oh this is nice. You ARE a cheat and now my sister will have more to bitch about me in confession when your ho yaks in my brother in law's car."
Don: "Sorry Miss Olson. But stuff like this tends to happen when I mix horny hags and my inexpressible grief over the impossibility of real human connection with alcohol.
Bobbi: "Burp. Grin and Barrett, Honey! God, your waist is tiny even in those awful, frumpy clothes I can tell. Hey, have I explained yet whether Jimmy is a closeted homosexual or just digs my sleeping with other men?"
Doctor at St. Mary's Hospital: "I want to ask you a couple of questions..."
Peggy: "Okay. 1960 ... Dwight Eisenhower ... Because I used the relaxer-sizer improperly? No? What! But I've only had sex twice --- and only with some Ivy league creep who looks likes he shaves less often than Joan! This isn't possible. IT ISN'T POSSIBLE!"
Don: "On behalf of the President of the United States and Department of the Army, I'd like to award you the purple heart."
Peggy: "But ..."
Don: "Just go with it... Peggy, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship."
OK JimK, you got me. That was some funny stuff.
Now don't take this the wrong way - you're very talented, but I just can't help but feel that some of the posters here (including you) are using this forum to write these tomes showcasing themselves and how absolutely wise and brilliant they are. Ne sais vrai, hmm?
OK Laurie B, you got me. Now am I going to have to finger you in Lutece to make you undersand who's boss? Oh crap, Lutece closed in 2004, I guess we'll just have to keep it cyber...
But yes, you figured me out.
Who'd of guessed that a guy who clearly identifies with a character like Don Draper would write-self-indulgently long posts without concern for the feelings or bandwith issues of his fellow com MM fans?
That he would quickly come to view this site as little more than an godless struggle of all against all ...
Oh crap, okay, okay ... I'm stopping right there.
Well if you're anything like our man DD, you can finger me in Lutece anytime..... oh never mind.
Anyway JimK, yes you got it. Brevity is the soul of wit (Shakespear). Although Dorothy Parker said "Brevity is the soul of lingerie..." but I digresss.
Jim - Do you live in NYC?
Laurie B and JimK, ya'll need to get a room :) :)
Take it off line, Laurie & Jim.
JimK if you wrote for SNL I'd still be a faithful viewer. You are hilarious!
This IS a Mad Men forum, so forgive any unpleasant overt sexuality in my previous post--- it was strictly for effect.
How do we cool this back down?
Oh yes.
Everyone just think of Roger in his sock-garters and white boxers in the Plaza. Or riding that twin through the office. Ahhhh, that does the trick.
For those of you who still can't cool your jets, just imagine Pete wacking his paddle ball for Dr.Stone.
Ooops,sorry if that last image drove anyone insane.
Lori B--You want a Don Draper and you start with a direct question? Who the hell do you think you are? Rachel Menken?
Redhead64: Thanks.
Mimi: Lori is to blame. She's the Rachel Menken of this board.
My first time here. Didn't even know this existed. However...after reading some of the postings, I think some of you need to take a cold shower. I thought this was a discussion of the show, but with some of these postings, well, this sounds like a sex chat! Any place to complain to AMC?
The reason I'm asking who lives in NYC is to try to pull together a convention of sorts. I know Gail Klein does, but there has to be several others of you out there too. I asked this question a few days ago too in another post, or maybe this same thread, I don't remember.
SummerMoon: Yeah, if you want to complain, scroll to the very bottom "Contact AMC". Sheesh!
LaurieB: Thanks, ever so much, already did. Have a nice day.
Summer moon: I don't mine people who don't understand the show posting but people without a sense of humor--that's another story.
If you took the last few exchanges seriously really and didn't get their connection to Ep4, you should really head for "Law and Order" site. It's a better fit for your intellectual capacity.
Good Grief.
JimK: I don't really care what you mind or don't mind. Good grief! You people are indeed strange.
Laurie B:
The answer is I work there and live outside the city. Sounds like viewing party in the city would be a great idea.
Summer Moon:
Of course, when I wrote "viewing party" I actually meant "orgy."
So before you move on to comment on how amazing endless, incredibly lame expository dialog sounds when delivered by great actors like Richard Belzer and Ice-Tea, be sure to flag this comment.
Summer Moon:
Wait a minute, I get it--performance art--you're pretending to actually be from 1962! Totally Cool!
Now we have a tattletale on the forum??? OH GROW UP--this is a public forum. Apparently Summermoon isn't a big fan of the 1st Amendment. As I told another thin-skinned poster: pour yourself a tall stiff one, rig up your Relaxicizer and live and let live.
Should I now live in terror of being reported to AMC-will this post go on my permenant record-will I be sent to the principal's office? Good grief . . . .
Redhead64 - Thank you. She also went into her tattle-tale mode over on the "Second Season - a Disappointment" thread. We were just having a little fun.
Although you contradict yourself SummerMoon. You first said you were new to the "Talk", then you said last year's Comments were better than this year. If you were on this forum last year, you'd know there are a ton of us from last year that are posting currently too. We've gotten into an easy conversational style with each other. Let it go.
play nice.
This totally abhorrent, inappropriate, disgusting, barbaric, animalistic, forbidden, unprofessional and sleazy language has me thinking that I need to order a Relaxicizer asap from Ebay.
I just called my husband and asked him to come home NOW. We'll be reading aloud the posts by LaurieB and JimK as foreplay. Is foreplay a dirty word on this site???
I know I'm going straight to hell after I get reported by you know who!
Well that was exciting.
LaurieB and JimK: Gotta meet the two of you in person someday! Please -- let's have a MM convention soon!
JimK: Shelley Winters! Ha, ha . . . yes, I'm afraid that in about 10 years our Joanie is going to look like the Goodyear Blimp . . .
myomy! Is there a full moon tonight?
Laurie B. - I live in NYC. What do ya want to know?
Old fashioned- you said something way up at the top that I want to comment on: Rachel's so called fast rebound from Don.
It's two years later. Remember? Not a rebound at all.
Poor Joan, her voluptuousness is going to go out of style when Twiggy, Jean Shrimpton, Mary Quant and Carnaby Street fashions hit the streets.
Gail--that sounds great. I have enjoyed this a great deal.
Jamm--sorry if we freaked you out all above. Yes, Joan is headed the way of the transatlantic steamship, the telegram and the three- martini lunch.
No, JimK, you didn't freak me out. It's like watching a ping-pong game, and every time these "little explosions" pop up once a while - it's funny!
Plop - Ascent - Fizzle!
This was truly nothing compared to the old "PeggySue" attack days.
You and LaurieB were being silly and having fun, and Mrs. Grundy dropped in to exclaim their "indignity" and take "umbrage" over your exchange. Took alot of effort to sort through 300+ comments for Mrs. Grundy to find something "offensive".
Your exchange is no-more pornographic or obscene than what we've been watching for the last 5 weeks! Oh brother, Mrs. Grundy, give me a break!
So many posts I can't even read them all! The last couple don't make sense to me but then having not been here for a few days, I guess I missed whatever. Don't want to repeat what's already been posted over and over. With all these posts I don't think there is much more to say on Episode Five. One thing however, is that the lovely actress playing Joan is becoming huge! I mean, perhaps it's all padding, but isn't she bigger than last season? She seems to have gone from a C to a double D cup, and her hips and derriere have increased quite noticeably. While I think it's refreshing for a change to see a woman who actually LOOKS like a woman (not some stick-thin thing like Peggy; no offense to Peggy fans but that woman is just not remotely attractive, at least to me), if Joan's dresses get any tighter there's going to be a wardrobe malfunction! Again, she looks womanly in every sense of the word and is the most attractive of the lot. Betty is way too ice-princess cool in my opinion; Rachel was too hard looking and needed an eyebrow waxing; and Bobbie is just cheap and trashy; Trudy, Pete's wife is pleasant in appearance. The only other one who is super attractive is Don's new secretary! Joan was a knock-out last season but as I said, if she gets any bigger she's going to be mistaken for the Xerox machine!
Everybody needs to get off Joan's ass (figuratively and literally)! So the lady is shapely and she seems to be a little more so than last season...so what? Maybe it's part of the storyline (like Peggy's weight gain last season) and maybe it's not. She's gorgeous and sassy and fabulous no matter what her size is. I don't want to sound like a priss but it's a sensitive issue for a woman and it's hardly the most interesting aspect of the show.
What I'm wondering about is the teaser at the end of episode 5....
Will Betty cheat with Stableboy?
Who is Pete talking to when he says, "Turn around...let me look at you," in a sexy voice?
When will a 1960s era mobster come and kill that skank-zilla Bobbie?!
Hanna: AS I stated in my post, Joan is shapely and attractive but she is getting a bit too shapely. She is the BEST looking of the bunch, but I think maybe you are being a little too sensitive here. No offense. I agree that a big bust line and all the rest can be a sensitive thing (if you have one), and as I stated, I enjoy seeing Joan for the woman she is, but there is also such a thing as going from voluptuous to over the top! She has expanded via nature or wardrobe and I think in either case, it should stop at the point it's at. No one is on her ass, as you put it. Just an opinion. Believe me, it IS an interesting aspect of the show if you watch the fashion and all the rest! I thought Peggy's weight gain of last season looked downright odd (not like the pregnant woman she was supposed to be). I would rather see a hundred of Joan than one Peggy! Peggy is dull, drab, and that ponytail HAS to go! Also, didn't know anyone else had commented on Joan's figure, so a thousand pardons!
Figaro: Thanks for your comments. I'm just a little sick of seeing SO MANY comments about Joan's bum (read through some of the other posts and you'll see). I know that many people are fascinated by it, being that there aren't many curvy women in tv shows today - she must seem like an alien or an exotic animal at the zoo! However it's not necessary to objectify her and make crass remarks(a Xerox - really?) No real offense taken. It's just my opinion. :)
ditto, Hanna! And that could be a pioint, objectification - that will be an issue in a few years; maybe Joan will get radicalized.
I predict Bobbie is going to mentor Peggy, bigtime. She'll take her to a top New York hairstylist (maybe "Kenneth?") and pick out some new duds for her. We're going to see a BIG makeover in Peggy's appearance quite soon, mark my words.
Joan's weight gain is not accidental; it's integral to the plot.
JimK: I'm more than willing to exchange email address and/or phone numbers with other MM fanatics who'd like to meet "live." Let me know.
I can't wait for Sunday!
Gotham Goddess: Hidey! Was hoping to put together a get-together, a MadMen convention of sorts that would really be more like a bar night, somewhere in NYC. GailKlein lives in NY, and JimK works in the city too. I was hoping you New Yorkers could scope out a place to have a get together. What do you think?
Oh for Pete's sake, everyone can lambaste these male characters (Don is a so and so, Roger is nothing but a skirt chasing alcoholic, the guy who is married to Francine is a fat ugly something or other, and the guy who Rachel married is a even worse; yes, I have read them all here) but the moment I make mention of Joan getting hippy (and my thinking she's a knock-out STILL doesn't appease those with their hearts on their sleeves), some here are up in arms. I have apparently "objectified" her. Male characters apparently can be objectified here but females characters cannot. OK, fine. I think Episode Five has now been discussed at such length there is nothing left to say. It seems there is ALWAYS someone here who becomes offended about something someone has posted. It's a television show. Period. THese are not real people only characters in a piece of art and as such, it's all subjective. With that said, I am off now to attend to my life which takes precedence over Mad Men. As much as I enjoy the show it has come to a point where I notice that we have more than a few super sensitive souls who take umbrage with nearly EVERYTHING that's posted. Have fun children.
LaurieB; By the way, I noticed that you asked about Joan and if we think she is getting a tad big. I posted this very thing and someone was up in arms that I OBJECTIFIED her! See my post above about the objectification thing. Yes, Laurie, I DO think if she gets any bigger, there will indeed be a wardrobe malfunction. Someone here takes GREAT umbrage with my saying so. As I stated in my previous posting, you gals can call Don, Pete, Roger and all the rest a bunch of so and so's (and Francine's husband was called fat and ugly; ditto for negative words about Rachel's husband) but oh my oh my, let someone call one of the gals something, and there is hell to pay. As I stated, I think Joan is a knock out so I guess if she gets up to 300 pounds, I cannot mention her "slight" weight gain, lest I am accused of "objectifying" her by another poster. Again, I notice the um, ladies, have done their own objectifying regarding Don, Roger, and the rest. Like I said, time for me to get back to planet earth and my real life. By all!
Come back Figaro - don't go! We spent all last season talking about how fat Peggy was getting and nobody took offense. There are probably just a few people out there who have a mad crush on Joan and chivalry being what it used to be, are rushing in to protect her honor. Or something like that. Heck, if we can't criticize anything, what's the point of posting.
Objectify all you want - heck, we're talking about the '60s here.
@Figaro: I posted in another thread that Joan's caboose does look larger than last year. I'm beginning to think it's intentional.
Joan's clothes don't look as pretty or flattering as last year which may be their way of signalling her getting "older" and not as "fashionable" as she was. However they're doing it, it's for a reason, but I don't think Christina Hendricks has actually changed in weight. They're doing something to the costumes - I'd swear. And, yep, I still like her figure. Poor Joan, she's not going to be the right figure for the '60s British fasion explosion of minis, maxis, paisleys, etc.
Sorry, meant "fashion".
Don's new secretary has the right figure for what's to come. Can you imagine how Joan's going to react if that girl shows up in a mini or patterned stockings?
Figaro...I think the problem is that you said you've not been on the board for a while, having just arrived, not read through the previous posts, and the first thing you choose to talk about is the size of Joan's rear. Not just on this thread, but you've made quite a trail of such topics...all having to do with the appearance of a woman's body. I think that is why you've felt singled out. Joan is multi-faceted and she can be the focus of a wide range of topics.
I know the stress of our real lives influences how everyone conveys their opinions. This board seems to gather posters whom are either informative, humorous or combative. Which one are you today? It's okay to regroup and return to discuss a wide range of topics....we'll be here!
Can you imagine Sterling Coo involved in either the Obama-Biden ticket or the McCain-PALIN ticket? A black and a woman running for the top US office. Amazing - 1962 would never have thunk it.
If you read the latest fashion blog- it seems to hint that Joan's costumes are being padded.
LaurieB: heck, I'll stick around but goodness, here is greystone in a snit! I have NOT left a trail of talk about Joan's rear end. What the double hockey sticks is the matter with some of you sensitive types? I think you READ into things (posts) WAY, WAY too much. Joan is big. Period. It's a fact. She's also gorgeous. Period. Just like it's a fact that Barack Obama is Black and had rather large ears. That comment is NOT racist, it's merely a fact, so all of you who want to fight, please pipe down already! This board is for expressing of opinions and whatnot. As Laurie pointed out, if we cannot even mention anything, what is the point of posting?! I agree! Laurie is right, no one took offense last year when we all said Peggy was getting hefty. She was! We didn't say she was a bad person, we just said she was putting on a few. And for Pete's sake she is but a character in a show! If every time someone posts those who wear their hearts on their sleeves are going to become so argumentive and just lambaste the others for their opinions, I agree with laurieB, what's the point of posting?! I have read so many posts (my guess is they are by the women out there) that absolutely crucify Don Draper, Roger Sterling, Francine's husband, Rachel's husband, and the rest of the guys. I saw one not long ago about Harry and his chunkiness and some other guy being very unattractive. Again, though, the moment someone dares to mention Joan's rear end, the world comes to a crashing halt! Come on, lighten up, people. Joan is voluptuous, it's a fact! And if I want to "objectify" her (sounds like a Women's Lib term), I will do so, gladly. LaurieB: I wonder if some of these folks were not around in the sixties when things were so much different than today and they don't quite see the perspective we do. And again, it's a TELEVISION SHOW people. If the cast reads any of these postings, they must roar with laughter! Oh yes, one more thing. I don't know if anyone remembers Renee Taylor from the old Nanny series (Fran Drescher). She was quite large. It's a fact! But hilariously funny! A true talent. Fran was quite thin. It's a fact! I thought she looked anorexic. I didn't think she was all that humorous. My opinion! And opinions are like you know what, everyone has one. Like I said, people, everyone has an opinion and I will respect those who don't like my comments about Joan. On the flip side, THEY must understand that if it bothers them that much, they would be best NOT to read the comments. I don't mind someone with a differing opinion, but I will continue to post mine as I see fit.
Ah, one more thought. If the only comments we are supposed to post are for instance, "Yes, I like MM, it's a great show. Like everyone on it. Like all the other posters. Everyone is wonderful. I have nothing else to state. Keep up the good work," then really, what a BORING forum this would be! The posters last year seemed WAY more laid back than a majority of the group this year! And finally, Joan is a dish (big rear and all), and Peggy is so utterly boring and dreary I wish she were gone from the show. She speaks in clipped sentences, looks drab and that ponytail has GOT to go! If you disagree, fine but let's not debate it for another ninety-five postings. I like it more when people place NEW things up for discussion. If I think of something, I will oblige.
Greystone. Ugh, just ugh. Your comments are thoroughly condescending. Yes, I am here too. So happy you are. Lighten up!
Figaro, I never thought your comments about Joan's figure were negative. The costumers are doing something to her clothes - either tighter or padding. I don't know if it's to suggest that Joan is getting older, unstylish/unfashionable or what.
When you compare Joan to the new girl, Joan now seems matronly rather than they oung, sexy, vibrant playgirl of 1960. Joan is now the "older" woman (all of 31 LOL) in the office, and her attitude reminds me of some of the grumpy older women I worked under. Just part of MM's sneaky subtlety in conveying the changes in a character (just like I think Don's hair looks flattened down compared to Season 1 because he's being crushed down by all these problems).
jamm54: Yes, I remember your comments regarding Joan. Sheesh, I think some of these folks forget that Joan is a CHARACTER not a real person. Well, she is a real person but you know what I mean. Padding or not, Joan looks great but is getting a tad large. (Watch the women with their swords a'flashin come after me on that one.) We all talked about Peggy's getting hefty last year and not a soul was offended.
You know, if someone looks good and has talent, I don't care what size they are, but I will be dog gone if I am going to refrain commenting on things because someone becomes offended. I made a comment on another board about Peggy's silly little ponytail (not really appropriate for an office in NYC), and you would have thought I had made a remark about the Pope or something! People were outraged. Over a ponytail. Whenever we post something, I think there may be some folks who take it personally, although I am not sure why. Hey, if you're overweight out there, or have a ponytail, or are well-endowed in other areas, no one said you were not a nice person. (Isn't it funny that a man can be well-endowed, people can comment, and no one goes crazy, but say a woman is well-endowed and has a great backside, and everyone goes off the deep end). Ah yes, the old double-standard at work. Well, again, have to get back to business at hand.
Jamm54: Oh yes, and thanks for not reading something into my postings that weren't there in the first place. One more quick thing. not directed at anyone in particular. I think when we all post, sometimes our actual points or references may be misconstrued. Postings are just that, and they lack the emotion or inflection in the voice than can change meanings. And postings are here for a while. I think people look at them over and over and get worked up. If you are merely speaking with someone, you have the conversation but cannot return to it, and you go back to whatever you were doing before, thinking nothing more about it. Voice is so much different than mere postings. OK, now back to business.
[Slightly off topic, please bear with....]
The Open Thread this week is happily attracting lots of intelligent commentary, but also seems to be a bit of a sticky wicket.
There are some mean, pushy people on here who are scaring the crap out of me, so I know they must be scaring the new people. Call me a wuss (but don't push me too far!), but I think I've started and cancelled at least five different commentaries this week.
To that, I think I'll keep my "fingers" mostly silent save one point.
There are a multitude of great sites out there blogging about Mad Men, and it's tempting to jump in. However, I think where Mad Men could use the most support is right here, so here I faithfully remain.
In that vein, I would love to see a certain standard exercising some taste, manners and self-control. If that were to happen ANYWHERE, it should be here. The veterans and heavy posters on the board have a responsibility to set the example. Many of us are old enough to both remember, and know the difference.
At the risk of being irritating, tiresome or, HORRORS, irrelevant (and there is always that!), I thought I might partially repost a comment from Episode 4.
dashel posited that Draper was feeling emasculated, and his "actions" in the lounge hallway were an attempt to get the upper hand with Bobbi...
My comment had to do with the filmmaking aspect..... (sorry it's long, but I don't see anyone else making mention of this)....
Draper does seem to be getting the emasculation treatment from women on all sides right now, and there was definitely a lot of anger there.
However, for that moment, at least in my mind, Donald Draper stepped off the pedestal. Gregory Peck, indeed. He lowered himself. We know Draper is a serial cheater, but we didn't know he was capable of being a pig.
Mad Men episodes loop in my office, so I see them several times, each time coming to new conclusions. While my feelings about the other startling things in Episode 4 (domestic violence, picking on Bobby, Sally getting drunk and passing out) have evolved into things other than shock, this point has not.
So I'm going to call it.
That scene would have been every bit as effective had they lost the one long shot where we see Draper’s arm under Bobbi’s evening frock, etc. The headshots of him "holding" her, of her reaction, would have been plenty cinematic, illustrative and, frankly, a lot more provocative.
True to the filmmaking style of the era, we needn’t have been hit over the head with the graphic details to get it, and we DON'T need to know that Draper sits down to dinner next to his wife with those hands, before visiting the gentlemen's room.
In that vein, it's been brought up several times whether this show could be more effective on HBO.
I am a HUGE fan of HBO and SHO series. I waited my entire life to see television that good, and was quite relieved that characters could finally express themselves realistically.
However, as fond as I am of profanity and its endless ability to daily entertain and help us express ourselves in unique ways, I might use as an example here the one guy who said Deadwood overdid it.
Deadwood was a beautiful, incredibly rich (if way too brief) masterpiece but, in retrospect, the profanity itself really did begin to overshadow the experience, and even threatened to become a cast member. Hard as I might try, and often do, even I could not fit that much profanity into my day.
Mad Men is unique. It is NOT a Sopranos, a Six Feet Under or a Weeds, and treating it as such would be a huge miscarriage. We are watching a series about the days when ladies and gentlemen (generally) behaved as such, and knew the difference.
Integrating more profanity or any other overt challenge to the censors wouldn't make Mad Men better - would NOT change the story.
What makes this show incredible is the incredible writing, in the fashion of the day. It takes us straight back to a VERY different era, utterly suspending our disbelief.
In Mad Men, it is the incredibly mesmerizing and haunting lines which play over and over in our minds, which words we will still be able to recall ten years from now.
Matt Weiner and his stellar crew tell this story JUST FINE - hell, BETTER THAN FINE, without all of that "hype-la."
Thanks for listening. At my own risk, I ask, what do YOU think?
[Excuse me while I both rapidly flee AND change my name!!]
@Figaro: Believe or not, I think Peggy is going to lose her ponytail in episode 6! There was some preview scene where Joan is saying something to Peggy about the ponytail (even Elisabeth Moss wanted to get rid of it this season but lost that battle with MW for the time being).
So, maybe this week Peggy stops being "Nancy Drew" and gets to be "Lois Lane - career woman" finally, and look it!
@Dry Manhattan: I think this series works fine on AMC, too. The standards that they have to adhere to for AMC fit the "era" that the series is taking place in. And if you look back on old movies, man, what they could imply or suggest through dialogue and what wasn't shown - I call that absolutely masterful writing. Watch any Billy Wilder/I.A.L. Diamond, Hitchcock or Kubrick script/movie (Apartment, Love in the Afternoon, Vertigo, North By Northwest, Lolita, etc) for implication/subtlety.
EXACTLY. Thank you!
Jamm54: Yes indeed, I saw that clip and do I hope Peggy's pony tail goes the way of the poodle skirt, bobby-sox, and saddle shoes!
Jamm54: How about an episode entitled "Pete Running With Scissors"? He could chase Peggy around the office and finally lop off her pony tail! Or, Joan could do it after Peggy makes a crack about her expanding derriere! Yes, to those who are totally offended, I also posted this on another thread that I myself began. What can I say?!
DryManhattan: Did you mean that some are trying to regulate what's on the boards? Are those the people who are scaring you? If so, I agree. I mean, I was lambasted by more than a few posters when I dared mention Joan's derriere. Of course, those gals can mention how Don is a hottie and how Francine's husband is really ugly, but more than a couple of posters read me the riot act for "objectifying" poor Joan. I repeat to all: These are characters in a piece of art, NOT real life! Anyway, just wondered if that's what you meant.
Figaro,
First, really just that those who get prematurely testy, or take a huge piece, pick out the one sentence they don't like or think is funny, and beat it to death, doesn't seem very neighborly.
I am sure no one on here intentionally sets out to offend someone else. Let's face it, discrimination is the human condition. Someone is always discriminating on someone, whatever age, gender, color, class, weight, etc., etc.
Attracting good posters is the object, right? I've been on here, and some of the words flying around this week are a little harsh and intimidating. I ran away, so I'm sure others did too.
This is the AMC Mad Men public forum, they are graciously hosting a very nice literary playground, and we should try to act like guests.
Secondly, sorry, I am guilty. I really like your other posts, but I made a bad joke (seemed funny at the time) because I was miffed. I was passive-aggressively acting out I guess.
It's not serious, just a man/woman thing, and comes from being the one whose ass is being perused at the office, and discussed in great detail.
Somehow Joan gets ogled AND respected. In my experience, it was hard to keep their eyes, well, at eye level and I'm pretty sure they weren't listening to me talk.
My first reaction to your post was irritation and wondering why we are discussing Joan's ass at all.
In Season One, she started out thinner and got bigger. In Season Two, evidently she is putting on some weight. There is a reason for everything in this series, even if you don't see it now.
A plurality of women's weights rise and fall according to the changes in their life, age, health, emotional state etc. This is normal.
I would say the fact that you wrote a long post about Joan's ass means that you might be upset it's growing, but you aren't looking at anything else, are you!!
(Hence, the genesis of my bad joke.)
.....that was not to be hurtful, by the way.... I'm just not drawn to any "he's hot / she's hot" commentary. I mean, you can say it once, and that's enough said.
There is so much else going on, my list of questions and open-ended threads is growing.... I'd like to know about some of those things....
On the other hand, the beauty of these things is to be able to express ideas and opinions freely with other intelligent people. I don't see how anyone writing authentically can NOT offend SOMEONE, SOME TIME.
We are all going to stick our foot in it at some point, and being less quick to jump on that might be best. Like we forgive our friends for spazzing out occasionally, we should similarly forgive each other.
Just sayin....because I'm a big spaz.
No matter where you post comments about the size of Joan's rear (whether you find it pleasing or not) and make no reference to how your comment is relevant to the storyline, you are objectifying her.
I'd rather know if you think she's pregnant...or is she depressed? ...Maybe you suspect other reasons for her increasing hips, but you've never said, and continue to repeat it as fact over and over and over....you have the right to say it. You do. You can repeat it over and over as if it is headline news. And, just like Roger in his office with his paddle...I was just telling you how it sounds....
.....re: peggy's ponytail, I think it's earned its retirement..... they're coming into a new more modern era - Beatles, MLK, JFK, RFK, (A-Okay,).... and Peggy likely will bump up her image a bit.....
I thought a honey blonde, mid-neck-length flip would be sweet..... with the side-swept bangs....
how much do you think Peggy's ponytail would fetch on eBay?
can we think of a charity?
Fine greytone, but I think it's time to move on. You get the last word on Joan's rear end. And now, for something completely different....
DryManhattan: They should indeed donate Peggy's ponytail to charity, or at least, as you suggested, auction it on eBay! And let us not forget her clothing! I am sure the actress who plays her is far more attractive in real life than the Peggy character.
However, my guess is that if we saw some of these folks on the street, we might not even recognize them when taken out of the context of their characters. Well, who knows. Night all.
...... Watch the half-hour Mad Men documentary which alternately showcases soundbites from three men (Slattery, Hamm and Kartheiser), and three women (Moss, Hendricks and Jones).
Everyone is on good behavior, but the "code" there for the ladies, both in character and on set, is demure and tight-lipped.
However, it is clear that Christina Hendricks has a lot to say....
makes me wonder a little, are there any actors or crew from this show on this board, at all? any guesses?
what i'm getting at is that joan exists because of christina hendricks and her deft talent for pulling off Joan Holloway.
Joan could have been whorish, campy, malignant or repulsive.
she is NOT!
she is bodacious, exquisite, bold and smart, with a touch of soul in there somewhere....somewhere.
i love joan. she has the balls to say what she thinks and get away with it.
questions? comments?
everyone in this cast is beautiful and amazingly talented..... it's the greatest job in the world....
as to this board.... in the words of conan o'brien...."be cool, my babies!"
DryManhattan: I guess I don't think about it quite THAT much! Ah well, like I said, got to get to bed! Have a great Labor Day weekend everyone!
"ritorna!! ritorna! poqueno figaro!!
DryManhattan: Con el tiempo. Adios, Amigo! (My Spanish is a tad rusty, as you can probably tell.)
OK, now I am really truly honestly signing off for the night!
Cooper keeps mentioning Ayn Rand.
I'd like to see an objectivist meeting on the show.
Draper can go as Cooper's guest.
They can all be checking their premises.
(I'm trying to start this as a new conversation but I don't know where to post it.)
O yasumi nasai, as Cooper would say at this juncture.
joan gets ogled and respected because she is sexy and gorgeous and takes responsibility for her actions keeps her real feelings/opinions to herself and will not be seen crying in the ladies' room