Piper, I hadn't really put those things together, but you are right. ( Although both lines you reference stood out as odd to me when she said them.)

Thinking back to Season 1 .... after Betty had a minor car accident, there was a scene where she went on about how awful it would have been if the kids had been killed, or worse yet.... if the daughter had been scarred on her face! For a boy that would be no big deal ... but how much worse that would be for a girl.

Betty seems completely self involved... and probably her only interest in even the daughter is some version of vicarious.

Did everyone notice Betty's response to her friend as she got in the car at the stables? I thought it odd, too.

Her friend asks wasn't she concerned about getting the manure from her boots in her car, and she responded, "Little children...What's the difference?" Her attitude toward her children has shifted, definitely.

It's all rather sinister....

yet she reaches out to helen's son when she sees him in his mother's car as if a young boy can be a confidant. it's all very curious.

"as if a young boy can be a confidant."

The shrink said that she had "the mind of a child."

I noticed that too! It could be nothing, or it could turn into some kind of Munchhausen Syndrome (who knows?).
Also, I loved the part where she praises the little girl for skipping lunches and "watching what she eats". Creepy!

Hope this doesn't mean that Betty's the ultimate narcissist. She does seem detached, but she was kind of like that last season with her kids. She hardly ever held them (of course there weren't too many kid scenes). To be fair, Don seemed detached about the kids, too.

They both appear to treat the kids like they're ornaments, rather than alot of interaction. Of course, the format for this show isn't "Leave It To Beaver" or "Father Knows Best" I guess.

Wow, you're all so observant. I wonder if Betty's still seeing the shrink. It's obvious that she's changed over the past 14 mos. She's more assertive (taking the phone from Don and ordering what she wants at the hotel, doing things on her own like her riding lessons, etc.) BUT I wonder if she's going mad. All the comments as mentioned in all your posts are so weird! And remember last season when Betty wished she had a photo of her daughter crying..... ewww.

(Greytone, I remember you from last year....We're baaaack!)

the one thing that stood out to me is Betty's mother recently died and no one seems to care ... was grieving not accepted in those days??? even the psychiatrist does not give it much thought

and what was wrong with her hands back in the begining of the 1st season ... I thought maybe she had arthritis or ms or something but it is not shown now

I do kind of understand the comment about the horse manure and "Little children...What's the difference?" I have 2 kids and they wreck my car. But I did think it was weird that she mentioned her son as an afterthought to her old roommate.

I think the dilemma for alot of people in their late 20''s/early 30's in the early to mid-sixties, was that the focus was on the young, having fun, happening baby!

For the people of this age span, in the 1950's they were respected for their position, marital status, and age. They were the adults, and that's where all people wanted to get to in society - adulthood. Because adults had all the power.

As the sixties shifted the focus from adults to "youth", the already young traditional marrieds were robbed of the esteem that adulthood guaranteed them.

Now it was all about the kids - their fashions, their tastes, their music, their movies, their thoughts. And those married late 20's-30's year olds were completely bypassed or ignored as having any impact on the tastes of society. The shift made them feel old, and for many, trapped, because in essence they were still young.

That's my sociology opnion for what it's worth, and could completely be a bunch of hooey. But I remember my mother feeling that way, and still young (29 in 1960 and 38 in 1969), and indulging in some of the new "trends" - not alot. She was just "barely" too old to participate in this shift, and marriage just naturally barred her from it too.

I'm glad you brought his up. After rewatching FTWTY last night, I realized how sad Bobby looked toward the end when the maid leaves, Betty's out still (doing heaven know's what with the mechanic) and Don's there on his own, drinking. Bobby looks at him and pushes his plate away. He says (I think), "I don't like this." Don pulls the plate toward him and starts to eat it and Bobby sits there, sad, with his little face perched on his hands, elbows on the table. It was the kind of look that made me want to scoop him up and hug him! Why didn't Don offer him something else to eat? He seems neglected. He needs his mommy and she's not around.

Another note of weirdness: Did anyone notice Betty's expression when little Sally was showing her new dance moves to her parents? Don was amused, but Betty looked annoyed, embarrassed, who knows? Clearly Sally is not going to be a ballerina, but come on! The weight thing is going to be a big issue between mother and daughter. As Betty gets more detached, the superficial stuff will become more of a focus.

Ephraimh, I would not put too much stock in anything that Betty's psychiatrist said to her or about her. Psychiatry had some very strange ideas back then about women, essentially viewing them all as children. He showed himself to be completely unethical when he saw fit to call Don Draper and give him a weekly report on everything that Betty said. That was horrible. Today, a doctor would be severely censured for that sort of thing, perhaps even lose the license to practice.

I find it curious that so many people feel that Betty is ready to snap or is somehow dangerous, homicidal even. To me, she is about as dangerous as an after-dinner mint. Yeah, no doubt she is a desperate housewife, but that I think is as far as it goes.

I was a little disgusted at the way she regards her son as some sort of an afterthought. I don't think Don does much better either as far as giving his son a feeling of self-worth, but then again Don didn't have very good examples in his life as far as parenting skills.

I actually do think she was aware that her former friend was a call girl, but she was feigning innocence in front of her husband because a "nice" girl should not know about things like that.

I guess i didn't really notice that she is more detached with Bobby than Sally. Although she's pretty detached altogether. But I think that's kind of the point, she's not anymore self-interested than any other character on the show. Just because she has kids doesnt make her a good mother. Maybe she sees her children as just a neccessary condition for her survival when in fact she is no more than a child herself. Watch "Shoot!" from season 1 to see what I mean.

Betty exists in a world that values women in terms of reproductive value. Her mother use to tell her that "she was painting a masterpiece, make sure to hide the brushstrokes." That's why she felt her daughter being scarred was worse than death. Also that's why her hands went numb in the first place because when she saw helen bishop moving into her new home as a single mother she realized she could never survive on her own.

Its this conditioning and fear that causes her to behave so superficially. I don't like predicting shows (good ones at least) but she will definitely travel down a dark path. Just how far remains to be seen. What's the difference? Her marriage is just as empty as a call girl's relationship with her john, and to top it off Don can't even satisfy her sexually. Yeah, things won't end well this season.

Remember in Episode 1 at the end when Don goes into the kids' bedroom as they sleep and strokes their hair so lovingly to the tune of "The Street Where You Live" by Vic Damone? I think he loves his kids deeply but they are just more potential victims of the fallout that he knows might occur if and when they ever find out what a sham their father's life is. I can hear Sally in her teen years yelling to him right now "I don't even know what my real last name is! How could you do this to us?"

I don't think it has anything to do with Betty ignoring or dismissing Bobby. Keep in mind that in the 50's, the dads did most of the little boy stuff and women tended to the girls more. Plus, Betty has her housekeeper take care of both the children when she out busying herself. In Season 1 you didn't see much of Bobby because he was still a baby. I don't think it is deliberate of Betty to dimiss the boy, but perhaps I will be proved wrong.

Zebra: Here are some other little tidbits of weirdness regarding Betty's mothering during Season 1 (mostly during "Shoot"):
1.) She tells Don she and the kids are going to the park to watch them fill the pool....yet stays in her nighties till 1 (while the kids entertain themselves) smoking and eventually...
2.) Goes outside, cig dangling from her mouth, and shoots the pigeons as payback to the neighbor for yanking her kids (mainly Sally) about the dog.
3.) I think dragging out the "Sally could have been scarred for life" scenario was meant to appeal to Don's soft side that he has for the children. That sealed the deal on allowing Betty to go to the psychaitrist, where she really wanted to talk about Don.
4.) She told Don that she really wanted to get a picture of Sally crying. What mom wants that??

Why does Betty need a housekeeper?? Oh yeah, cuz otherwise Bobby might freeze to death outside! That blew me away.

She doesn't seem very interested in either of her children, except for Sally's weight. Think she's tired of the role of "perfect mother".

But, Don praised her as being the perfect mother last season, so........if she's becoming lax and disinterested, that will be a real bone of contention between them.

Neither Don or Betty seem very connected to their children.

Just more indications that Betty's feeling "powerful" if she's chIding the maid. Even I didn't get that - probably because I didn't grow up with a maid. Oh, that's right, I was the maid! Dishes, vacuuming, cooking - the horror! LOL

PeggySue, remember that show "Hazel" about the family maid? Maybe Betty got her idea of having a maid from that.

I don't know why, but their house looks too small to need a maid. Don is a partner, so I suppose it goes with the territory of being an executive's wife and her needs.

This thread started with a comment Betty made to the maid about Bobby turning blue outside. Some viewers/posters assumed Betty had left him in the car while she came inside. When I watched the episode a second time I realized that Bobby had been outside playing and had NOT been in the car with Betty. Maybe this just shows that even though we are all watching the same program, we are not seeing the same things. (I'm so thankful for re-runs!)

I was taken by the way Betty's appearance and whole demeanor had changed since the first series. When she came down that stairway in the hotel wearing that gorgeous dress, she looked totally different from when she was posing for the coke ad. It was as though she changed from housewife/mother to sophisticate.

One other comment, for what it's worth: I think the scene in season one, where Betty took the gun outside to shoot the pigeons was a fantasy; like her adventure with the washing machine.

I loved Juanita's comment to Betty after she said, "I have a little girl, and oh a little boy". Juanita said, "of course you do". Classic!! Betty's family was definately a self-fulfilled prophecy. I don't know why I thought this, but when Betty told the maid, "Bobby's turning blue", I thought of Bobby having an asthma attack. I guess because I didn't see any snow on the ground I didn't think it was cold enough. However, it was Valentine's Day and NYC, so it is definately winter. I grossed out when Sally bent over to pull off Betty's boots with all that manure on them. It was as if Betty was punishing Sally for being "not slim". Finally, I think Betty's new attitude came from an episode in season 1. Don yelled at Betty after they were fighting about her going to the psychiatrist. Betty was doing the dishes and Don yelled, "leave the dishes for the girl!!". Betty is going to do less and less in the house as she sees that Don feels housework is beneath her.

Well, Peggy Sue, I was nine years old in 1962 with working parents who could have afforded a maid....now I feel deprived that we didn't have one! LOL!!! (Although, come to think of it, I grew up in the Southwest...no maids for miles around).

Also: Even Jackie Kennedy would have dragged her son inside from the cold and THEN chastised the housekeeper/maid. Betty still gets my Thumbs Down on this one.

Yeah, Jolie1, why couldn't Betty have just seen that he was "turning blue' and brought him in herself? She definitely likes to be lording it over the help! The "HBIC" and all that (as someone on the boards already said)!

Yeah, Jolie10, why couldn't Betty have seen that Bobby was "turning blue" and just brought him in herself? She definitely likes lording it over the help! The "HBIC" and all that (as someone on the boards has already said)!

Woops...a double post with the "0" missing! ha

Is Betty turning into Pete, the "Entitled One"?

Oh, yeah she definately is!! I can see her having the daily lunch in Manhatten and spending the rest of the day at Menkens. The nanny will be taking care of the children and her car will stay much cleaner.

Wow, I missed that initially! I too thought it was more of a comment on her willingness to let her children be tended to by the maid -- a sign of middle class behavior. But tonight's episode showed more of her disapproval regarding Bobby's behavior. Maybe her anger toward men is manifesting in the only 'safe' or 'power up' relationship she has with a male. I dunno but it will be interesting to see how it develops.

Boy, are you guys down on Betty!

Episode 14: she comes out of the bathroom wearing a black bustier worthy of Frederick's of Hollywood, a little strange after her almost mythic appearance at the restaurant. Frankly, I thought she was trying perhaps a little too hard. The riding thing--what's a little horse manure on the floor mat compared to a back seat full of dead finger food and spilt milk? Finally, the sockeroo of Episode 14 is, as I've said elsewhere, the juxtaposition of the image of Jackie Kennedy, with her vapid comments and her horrible, breathy, whiny, "cultured" voice as the feminine ideal of 1962--a real life Barbie doll, all grown up.

That image alone would be enough to make an intelligent woman feel out of control--in a bedroom suburb that also is home to one of America's most infamous prisons. Coincidence there? I don't think so.

My take on Betty's relationship with her son Bobby (a popular name in those days--my brother's name, who would have been the same age):so much of what she does (or doesn't do) is connected to her subconscious awareness of Don and his philandering. Tonite (season 2, episode 2), she complains about Bobby's tracing a picture and taking credit for it as being hand drawn. Betty's words: "..he's a liar..and dishonest.." Now who does that sound like? (Don looked a little spooked when she made the comment, too). I think Betty transfers her anger with Don to her little boy--how sad, but definately rings true.

The other observation I made tonite: Don giving his kids directions on how to make cocktails for the neighbors--so much of the culture in those days was about booze--hard liquor! I can remember the adults giving my sibs and I directions on how to make them a "gin n tonic", Little recruits for the drugs to come in the late 60's!

Parents weren't as narcisstic with their kids in those days as we are now. We may focus on our kids now as a way to make up for what we "didn't get" by way of our parents' affections/attention then. Don and Betty's kids were necessary accessories to their suburban lifestyle. There was no such thing as the Youth Culture.

Another funny little observation: the scene of Peggy sleepiing in her bedroom, still in the dress she wore to the office party--the phone rings and rings and rings--no answering machine! How weird was that (we're so driven by technology today).

Boy after "Flight 1" last night, all I have to say is "poor Bobby".

Looks like Betty's going to take her anger at Don or whatever out on the poor kid. Her attitude about Bobby seems both cold and contemptuous..

Last week Betty ignores him going into the house; this week she calls him a liar; then she won't comfort Bobby when he's afraid of ghosts. Minor details, but her vehemence when referring to Bobby or even talking directly at him show disgust and anger.

Cold, baby, cold.

I'd say Betty has "washed her hands" of Bobby in some emotional sense. Bring on that castration complex.

Peggy Sue..............................................I was using "Jackie Kennedy" to illustrate a point. I didnt presume to actually know how she literally treated her children. My point was that social status doesn't excuse bad mothering. Animals keep their young warm...so should Betty.

As for my comments not being "germane" to the show, unless you, Peggy, are at least 69 years old or older, your experiences regarding adults in 1962 have been lifted from your childhood, just as mine are. Your arrogance astounds me.

@Paisley, what's the prison near Don and Betty's home/suburb (I don't know NY at all)?

Don never seemed to warm up to anyone else being the sexual aggressor with him (remember the aluminum siding twin?). Probably why he brushes off the Chinese restaurant waitress. He just doesn't like to be hustled sexually or in business.

Even last season, other than the tv/den room scene where Betty sat on his lap and they had sex, most of the time he was turning down her advances.

Indicative of Don's generation? Or specific to Don? I don't know. Tend to think of Don as very controlling.

I noticed these two comments that Betty made right away as well.

Betty "should" be happy in her well-positioned life, but it seems like there is a growing sense of disenchantment with her gender role. She seems to be disillusioned, perhaps she expected one life and received another, and while she should be thrilled that Don is back at home more, she seems almost stifled by his presence.

Betty seems to be growing more aware of her sexuality, I wonder if she will be one of the characters to experience the free love movement. It seems obvious a possible affair is brewing in her future with that sexy stable boy... :)

Well, whether consciously or not, the gist of Betty's attitude seems to be:

"You're going to "pay" for what you've done to me, Don"

And that could be a whole host of things, varying from big to small: sex, kids, hobbies/activities, shopping, drinking, pill popping (tho they haven't shown Betty doing either excessive drinking or pill popping yet).

I don't think Betty's completely conscious of her attitude change - does anybody else? She just acts put upon, and exasperated over every little thing regarding Don or the family.

Now that we've seen Season 2's second episode, I think Betty's attitude toward her son is more negative than just "detached". She related the tracing incident as if her son were some kind of malicious criminal, and even called him "a little liar".. and had no compassion about his being afraid. Is it just post 1960's thinking that makes that seem like parenting opportunity that was missed -- or rejected? A child that young may not understand why a skillful trace of a drawing wouldn't be considered an accomplishment. Much is made of the period detail of Mad Men -- does it include prevailing notions of child rearing? I don't have kids so maybe I'm out of line -- but I was one in the late 50's to 60's ...

Betty is a very spoiled, pampered little girl who grew up and lost her 'I'm the center of the universe' feeling. She is detached from her children and her husband because they interfere with the love affair she has with herself.

sorry, all -- new to blogging and just took the time to read the WHOLE discussion.

aramore, I'm new to blogging too, I thought Betty was extremely cold and mean about her son. When she was raking his behavior and character over the coals at the card game, all I thought was - God, he's just a little kid.

It's not like Bobby's some animal-torturing, stealing hoodlum-in-the-making. I agree with you, Betty's attitude is active dislike of him. Poor kid.

hey jamm54.. the prison in ossining (?) NY where the Drapers live is, of course, the infamous Sing-Sing. I think Betty hates Don and is transferring it to poor Bobby too.. the kid probably traced the picture for school so he could get some praise or validation from SOMEONE, either the teacher or his messed up parents. I remember mixing my parents "highballs", and fetching beers... I don't drink.

Yep, Ossining is home to "Sing-Sing," which is a corruption of the word Ossining.

I still think you're not taking Jackie Kennedy's appearance in Episode 14 seriously, guys. Go back and look at it again!

Haven't you ever seen a kid in a swimming pool when the evening starts to cool? They start to shiver and their LIPS TURN BLUE--well, bluish. Then they have to come out and warm up or they'll get hypothermia.

On the other hand, Kathy Anderson used to tell Bud to "turn blue" all the time, which was her equivalent of "drop dead" or "go to hell," which I don't think is the meaning here, but the expression is much of the era.

Sing-Sing, huh? Do you think it's appropriate that Don's home would be in the same vicinity of a famous prison? LOL. Seems like he's in one right now.

Aramone: I'm with you. Having been a kid in the 60's, I think the prevailing parenting attitudes were unfortunately clueless about the impact that passive aggressive behavior can have on one's kids years later. I'll bet Betty's parents demonstrated a subliminal disdain for her as well--how else can we explain why she chose a husband like Don? Great packaging on the outside...totally wounded and a train wreck on the inside. That's the beauty of this series--the characters are totally human, warts and all. And I guess we see ourselves in these characters.

It'll be interesting to see a few scenes of Betty and Don's "meet cute" or whatever, because they sure don't know each other, very well.

New to this blog, I'm enjoying reading what other viewers have to say about the show and all the tiny details that make such a huge statement about these people's lives at this time in this place. The attention to detail by the show's creators is fantastic. I was prompted to join in by kitkat's mention of the scene where Sally makes drinks for her father and his guest. It made me nostalgic - I, too, made cocktails (badly) and served mixed nuts and the like to my parents' friends. I can even recall fetching cigarrettes from the porcelain cigarrette/match holder on the coffee table in the livingroom or the silver cigarrette box in the den. It was considered a privilege to be allowed to "stay up" a bit later when Mom and Dad had guests. I have to laugh, though, because today's super-parents would never be so cavalier about alcohol and cigarrette use around their kids. But back in the 60s, everybody drank and everybody smoked and nobody thought it was a big deal. How things have changed! If I had my kids mixing drinks or fetching cigarrettes today, somebody would almost certainly call DSS!

Times were a lot different in 1962. I think someone said it earlier, but parents weren't so completely wrapped up in their children...this is still the seen not heard era. And that was definitely how the older characters would have been raised. So Betty's nonchalance towards her children may be shocking to us now but not appalling back then. Her point about taking praise that's undeserved is a point straight from the differences between sexes. Girls were allowed some measure of superficial praise but boys were not allowed such indulgences until they could find an outlet that was more private. This is part of the reason that as men, their lives were so public, family and extra curricular were so separate and different. There were set "rules" about what was acceptable in each arena.

As for having a maid, that was much more affordable. Segregation made that possible. And normal. And truth be told, suburban America may not have the maid coming in everyday, but once a week is something a lot of the neighbors still indulge in....

I actually remember being able to go to the store and BUY cigarettes for my parents with a note!

jamm54, I also used to go to the local grocery store to buy cigarettes with a note!
My mother also used to send me to the small local pharmacy with a folded note (which I never opened). The elderly man who owned the pharmacy would climb up a ladder, take a blue box off of the shelf, and then wrap it in brown paper for me to take home. I thought it was something very special. Do any of my fellow female boomers remember Modess? Too much info.!! Back to MM...
What do you think of the Don/Rachel relationship? He keeps saying that she knows him sooo well. Wonder where this is going?

Unfortunately, I think my favorite couple Don and Rachel (sorry Betty), are doomed to not be together. And not just because Don's married. Rachel would never marry a non-Jew as long as her father was alive, I think.

I was in love with a Jewish guy from New York for 5 years (1976-81), and in the end, he still married a Jewish girl because of family. Of course, I think I was more in love than him. .

But, there were anomalies, so.....that's why alot of barriers came down - people brave enough to challenge the accepted norms or weather the disapproval and condemnation of society or their families and follow their hearts or conscience.

If you couldn't, you couldn't. Those who couldn't buck society shouldn't be condemned. Not everyone had the strength for it.

60'schild: I guess we should be grateful we couldn't buy alcohol!

60schild: I also think Rachel is more of a pragmatist, even, than Don. I'm actually surprised by Don's almost unrealistic fantasies toward Rachel, considering his commitments. But, I think Don's never been "in love" before. Or never realized he wasn't in love, until he met Rachel. Now, he knows what it feels like.

Thanks for the responses jamm54. Great thoughts! We should be grateful we couldn't buy alcohol because then we probably have to mix the drinks and serve them at grown up parties. And I'm sure the tips would be lousy!
Don and Rachel are my favorite couple also. They have a chemistry. And chances are she wouldn't be serious about him until he divorced his wife and became Jewish. Then, I have to wonder maybe he is Jewish and we don't know that yet. We know so little about his backround.
You are probably right about Don's feelings for Rachel.
I was way out there and thinking maybe he had a connection with her earlier in his life, once again because we dont know much about him.